1869, Ep. 117 with Darryl Jones, author of A Clouded Leopard in the Middle of the Road

3:21PM May 26, 2022

Speakers:

Jonathan Hall

Darryl Jones

Keywords:

road

animals

people

roads

structures

places

book

overpasses

problem

darryl jones

transportation

deer

gliders

engineers

ecology

specific location

darryl

big

sorts

underpasses

Welcome to 1869, The Cornell University Press Podcast. I'm Jonathan Hall. This episode we speak with Darryl Jones, author of A Clouded Leopard in the Middle of the Road: New Thinking about Roads, People and Wildlife. Darryl Jones is professor of Urban Ecology and Deputy Director of the Environmental Futures Research Institute at Griffith University. He is the author of The Birds at My Table, also from Comstock Publishing Associates. We spoke to Darryl about how he got interested and actively involved in the field of road ecology, one of the most inspiring stories in which road engineers and environmentalists successfully worked together, and how you yourself can get involved with this important issue in your own local community. Hello, Darryl, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks, Jonathan. It's great to be here.

Well, we wanted to congratulate you on your new book, A Clouded Leopard in the Middle of the Road: New Thinking about Roads, People and Wildlife. Tell us the backstory behind this book. How did you get involved with this topic?

Yeah, this is it's a topic that's it's a fairly unusual topic, it's the field is called road ecology, it's a new type of hybrid thing. It's to do with trying to overcome the problem that roads present, you don't We don't even think about roads, we just drive along them. And yet, they've carved up the landscape everywhere, everywhere you go, if you're an animal, just think of yourself an animal in a patch of woods somewhere, no matter which direction you head, you will come across a road, it might be a small road. So it's no problem. But it might be a big road, you know, so But what it's done is it's isolated populations of animals, it's some can't move safely anywhere. But when they tried to do that, so a deer walks onto the road, it then presents a problem for Road Safety. So we actually want animals to move through the landscape, even though that we've divided it up into so many little patches. But that's dangerous for the cars and for the animals. So this field is trying to overcome those problems. And so that's what this is. It's, it's a, it's a fairly new field. So the idea of mine, of writing the book is to take this the message of how we what is going on all around the world, and also getting people to start thinking about the significance of roads themselves and and what we might be able to do about it.

Excellent, excellent. And you haven't been just a researcher, you've actually been actively involved in the politics of it. Tell us a little bit about that.

Yes, absolutely. So there's there is in inevitably, politics, because every time somebody wants to build a new road, or a railway or any, any linear infrastructure at all, it's the same deal. We'll come come, come on. Yes, so somebody decides that they, you know, a company or agency or a city council decided putting in a new road somewhere or upgrading an old one, that inevitably leads to impact on humans and people, and perhaps the landscape around. And there will be opposition to that almost everywhere that will happen. And so, you know, there's, you know, somebody says, Hey, we're building a new road and somebody, another group of people think we oppose it completely. And that's that, and so you have conflict everywhere. And so I have been involved for nearly Well, nearly 15 years now, in coming, trying to bring those two disparate, fighting factions together more, and letting them to letting them see that there are ways through this, this potentially difficult problem, that roads often do need to be built, but they don't need to be absolute barriers. And that's probably the thing that I'm going and trying to get across his roads are barriers, but they don't need to be we can we can bridge the barrier, if you'd like by all sorts of different ways here. So the politic political side of this is coming, getting involved in both sides of time on the road ecologist, so I can understand what the road engineers are saying. But I also understand what the community is saying, and the ecologist and all the other people so. So the field is very multidisciplinary, it needs to have all sorts of perspectives to come in and try and address the problem.

That's great. That's great. Well, it's it's, your story is very inspiring, because, as you well know, it's difficult to read the news these days for a multitude of reasons. But particularly when it comes to the environmental front, the news is, is quite depressing. And there's the humans as well as countless species of plants and animals are facing a really dire situation. But road ecology has some positive news and tell us tell us about these extraordinary crossing structures that are developed and tell us what they do.

Yeah, no, that's probably the the nub of what we're what I'm trying to say is, although everybody well is, once you're aware of roads, you think it's a, it's a just a terrible, yet another wicked problem to face, you know, we have to have the roads and what can we do about it. And again, we face just despair. So this book is to really argue against that, that hopelessness, and to and to give lots of examples of just how spectacular and successful it has, we have been in terms of getting animals across roads. So you start with a simple road, every road in the world has got tunnels or culverts, or pipes underneath for the water--you can't have the water build up on one side of the road, it's got to travel through, so they're everywhere. Animals have always used those pipes, you know, when they're dry, they can, they can just walk through the through there and get across safe and little animals. Of course, mostly, they're small. So that's a bit building on that concept. There has been all sorts of other structures, much more designed not for water this time, but for animals to get through. So different sizes and shapes, and what we call furniture, the way they're designed inside, there might be places for animals to hide from predators, or all sorts of things. So that's now extremely well advanced is that those things are everywhere. But you don't notice because you just drive along the road above, and you don't see them. Probably without doubt, the most conspicuous of the structures to allow animals to get across the road are these huge wildlife overpasses and they're, you know, they are incredibly successful -- animals use them all the time, and immediately use them as soon as they're available. But of course, they're really expensive, you know, so you can't put them anywhere. And so they need careful thought about where to place them. And you've got to have good healthy populations on either side of the road. There's no point in living and going over to the one side where there is no prospect of having a life on that side. But it's all about enabling as simply as possible, the animals to move through the landscape without even noticing the road and being worried about it. So you saw I'm just skimming over the surface here. But we've now got underpasses for for animals to move under the road, and big overpasses. But there's other things as well, there are things we call canopy bridges, which are like a like a rope ladder, which connects the canopy on one side across the road to the other side. So animals that are our boreal tree dwelling, they don't even need to come to the ground anymore, they can safely cross this busy, dangerous place just by walking on this ladder. And in Australia and a couple of other places, we have gliding animals, so they don't fly, but they have wing kind of apparatus between their legs, and they can shoot off and float through the air for a long distance would they call gliders, Australia has lots of gliders. So we have the capacity to put up pole, a series of poles maybe 10 meters apart, across, you know, a busy landscape across, you know, a six lane highway, and the gliders will then you know, zip from one to the other and get across the road safely. And to my, you know, to everybody's surprise, they work really like a dream. You know, it takes a while for the gliders to work out what they are. But once they once they know, ah, we can use these for gliding - they weren't here yesterday, but they're here now. So let's go. So that just some of the some of the examples of some of the things some of the structures.

What were some of the ones that are the specific locations that you thought, you know, the glider one sounds amazing. What were some of the ones like around the world that really, really impressed you?

Probably...Well, one of the one of the one of the approaches that has been most impressive hasn't even been literally a structure that allows the animals to cross. It's a different way of looking at the road. So this is a European example, started in Europe. So many of these things did start in Europe. But it was it's a way where you instead of so one of the problems we face is ecologist in trying to understand what can we do about this road here? How can I allow the animals to get through safely? And the and the terminology is how can I make it more permeable, like it's got spaces in it? And so you look at this design on the on the map on the on the on the plan, I think what can we do here? Where are some places to put underpasses overpasses whatever it might be in places where there is sensitive land or hilly country what the idea is now is to put in the road high above the ground anyway on on pillars and that just means that the entire area under that, under the road now is completely unaffected is a few pillars. And they have just they just, you know, they're concrete things that go straight up into the air. But the road is above them, and it has absolutely no effect on. So that's probably even the probably the best thing. I didn't even think about this. But there are places in Europe where there are some spectacular things like this going through mountainous country, where the road is way above the deep valley, and all the animals can just wander through underneath, barely even knowing that there's a road. So that, so I mentioned that because it was a completely different way of thinking about this, you know, we're fixated on building a structure that is a tunnel or an overpass, but there are other things we can do as well.

That's brilliant. That's brilliant. So now you said that they are expensive. So is what's the what is the what do you see as the most cost-effective measure that could be taken for one of these new structures. And and that kind of segues into the question I had is like, what can the average person do to convince their local community to do so? Like, is there? Is there a role model? There's all these different structures? Is there one that is kind of coming to the forefront of like this is relatively inexpensive, but very effective?

Okay, sure. No, that's a good question. And so it really gets down to it's very much everything about road ecology is local, everything. So what will happen is there is you know, a new road somewhere is being planned, and there's opposition to it, and what are we going to do, you know, in the best case scenario, the, the environmental groups are sitting down with the planners and everybody's trying to listen to each other and all that sort of thing. That's, that's how it should be. And so what it what will happen is, wherever you are, there will be local specific things that you need to address that might be the terrain is such that you can't put it in a an underpass or something. So there are things that can be discussed...really crucially, there will be specific species that are of concern. And they may be concern of because they're rare or really threatened in a particular place. And if any more get killed on the road, it'll be really catastrophic for the population, but much more likely, it's going to be how can we keep these abundant large animals off the road so that we don't have roads, you know, the road safety issue. And that drives at least half of the motivation to do this stuff. So you can put up a fence, of course, they've just stopped the animals dead, they can't go any further. But we want them to move. So if you put in a fence, you've got to put in another way for them to get across the road and without going onto the tarmac and being hit by a car. And so, so there's a lot of thought goes into where it where our structure should go. But But, but importantly, what are the key species, we call them target species. So in America, it's going to be deer, you know, there's wherever you go, there are tons of deer in a serious threat. But there will also be probably smaller animals, you know, a turtle or species of frog or whatever, it might be some little thing that seems to be insignificant. But is it crucially important in that in that location, so there will probably a community group, you know, absolutely agitating because of their favorite local kind, whether turtles live or something. And so this is very bespoke, it's very, what's the problem in this specific location? And how can we solve it like that? But that's what road engineers have always been done every bend in the road every time they have to put the route across a creek or go around a corner or through a mountain that requires specific design features about that specific location. So but yeah, road engineers that used to doing this kind of thing that you said, I've never had to think about it from the biodiversity perspective.

Interesting. Yeah. Never thought of the financial impact. You know, it would be interesting to see if, you know, insurance companies, everything, the insurance companies are very strong in North America, that it would be in their best interest to reduce accidents, you know, people hitting deer to support this on a national or even state level.

Absolutely, yeah, now and deer...like the number of deer hit on roads in the States is is beyond comprehension. You know, there's, and they not, not only represented deer and injured people, but smashed up cars and in enormous amounts of, you know, cost involved in that. So, yeah, so that's, that's definitely a thing. And, you know, and the insurance companies are starting to get really worried about this kind of stuff. And they're there in fact, a few tracts of, of land a road in Australia where the...our equivalent to the deer problem that you have is the kangaroos. kangaroos are just deer that hop, you know, they're exactly the same thing. And they you know, they there are insane numbers of those killed in cars hit them all the time. So there are places where there's so many kangaroos for various reasons that if you have an accident there, the insurance company won't cover you. You know?

So for someone that wants to learn more, obviously, your book is an incredible resource, and we encourage them to read it. But if they wanted to get involved and go to their town or city council or wherever they may be listening local government. How what do you recommend as a first step to get this on the agenda?

Yeah, that's a really good point. Because that's that is literally what this book will probably do is it will keep people will probably say, I've never thought about this like, so this will actually I can take this to my local cat member, you know, state legislator or federal representative or something. And say, we've got a real big problem down on my favorite bit of land down here. They're putting in a new road, but what can can we put in one of these overpasses? You know. So that's a good point. So there are a number of places you can do this, you can just Google road ecology and things will come up. But in the United States, there is an organization it's named after the its meetings. So it's called the International Conference on Ecology and Transportation -- ICOET. And it's all there that refers to the meeting. It is also the source of enormous amounts of information. So you can you can go there. The other thing is that that's also available is a website that is being it's really just standing now called Ecology, Transportation Info, I think it's something like that. And I'll make sure I get the right terminology for you. Right, right label. And that is a place that exists entirely to share, news and, and solutions and plans and all sorts of things from all around the world, so that anybody can see what's going on. So we are continuously putting in new case studies or examples of research that's been done. And so that people, anyone can go to this thing and read about what did they do about the otters in the Netherlands? Or what did they do about the what when What's the latest on the Florida Panthers? You know, and they, you know, like, wherever you want, there's, there's a whole lot of information on those things. So there's a couple of places to look,

That's fantastic. I'll include those links in the description.

I'll make sure that we I'll send those to you.

Okay, great. There are so many inspiring stories in your book, tell us one of your favorites.

When I started writing the book, it was very technical it was it was how Isn't this amazing this structure that I'm talking about? How big is it and how many animals use it not that sort of thing. But the thing that has impressed me the most is the the impact that small, dedicated, informed community groups can have. In fact, this is where the impetus comes from, because these people who won't take no for an answer, who are very motivated and, and strong about what it is they want to do. That's where the action is because properly and carefully and respectfully done, though they are an implacable force. And, and as it has been discovered by kept by agencies and road engineers, and everybody else around the world, they're a formidable force. So the so one of the best examples of this is on the I-90, which runs out of Seattle, and heads across the states to the east to beat I think it might be the longest road in in the United States. So just the others just, you know, inland from Seattle, in Washington state is the Cascade Mountains. And so there's a big road goes through there. It's very mountainous, and very dangerous kind of road. So WSDOT, which is the Washington Department of Transportation just decided that they needed to upgrade the roads, there's avalanches and things you have to get in in the snow country, so time of the year. And so they said, well, we'll just put it everybody will want this will make the road safer. What they had no idea about was that while they're thinking this way, a coalition of about 100 environmental and recreational groups had all come together. And they were pooling their resources so they could buy land for conservation purposes, all along that corridor where the where this road was going. And then they suddenly hear that the transport guys are going to come and smash through the land that they've just bought. And so it wasn't a pretty outcome. It was all hell broke loose. And so the Washington Department of Transportation were just going "what the hell?, we had no idea what was going on." And now they're completely flustered. And there's some great footage of people being interviewed saying, "we just build roads, you know, what's all this about," and they had no idea. So what started as an absolute implacable catastrophe, and nobody was going to move or budge an inch. Eventually, because it was all comes down to a couple of key personalities on either side of the fence said, "now let's just let's see, we can't...this is no good. We can't keep keep going like this. Let's talk to each other." And so there was a long period of thawing. And they really started again, got new people, and said, "Let's start this conversation again." And I think it exemplified by, let's say, a year later, they, the transportation, people have to go to the state legislature to get the money for them to build this new road, or it's an upgrade of a railroad. And so when they went there, there were there was two groups, there was the environmental groups, and the road, guys. And what happened there was the environmental people got up in front of the state legislature, legislature and said, "We really need this road, it's very important for for transportation purposes". And then the road guys got up and said, "Yes, we do need a road. But it's incredibly important that we take care of the biodiversity on either side of the road." And that floored everybody. And and the result was about a year and a half later, those two guys stood in tears embracing each other as the big new overpass was opened on the I-90 going through the Cascades. So that's I think that's that's where my hope comes from. Because it was it all came down to some having respect and listening to the other side. And knowing that there are now technical engineering solutions to what is a big problem, and that these things can actually occur. So, you know, that's just one example of something that started out looking terribly negative, but in the end, became a fantastic outcome for everybody.

That's such an amazing and encouraging story. It really is. I thank you so much for for bringing this to light and your book, because as we talked about in beginning, there's so many intractable environmental issues, and you've kind of throw your hands up in the air, like what actually can we do? And I think that that's what's really amazing about this is we it's it's practical, you have engineers, who, as you said, like we just make roads. But if they can have an actual conversation with environmentalists and do something practical with the technology, like there is a it's a solvable issue.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's right. And I think probably I've, I've seen this occur on in so many committee meetings, where you're sitting around around a table with everybody on either side, and at some, at some stage that one of the chief road engineer will go, Wait a minute, this is a design problem. This is an engineering problem, we can design a solution to this. And so that's when they go, Ah, this is what I've been trained to do, you know, let's design a way out of this problem. And that's, you know, that once you've got that, you know, you've you're in business, you know, things got to happen.

That's great. So it's a design challenge, rather than some sort of philosophical debate.

Exactly. Absolutely.

Yeah. That's great. That's great. Well, thank you so much for sharing that story and for sharing much more in your new book, A Clouded Leopard in the Middle of the Road: New Thinking about Roads, People and Wildlife. It was truly a pleasure to talk with you, Darryl.

Thank you very much. Wonderful.

That was Darryl Jones, author of A Clouded Leopard in the Middle of the Road: New Thinking about Roads, People and Wildlife. You can follow Darryl on Twitter at MagpiejonesD. If you'd like to read Darry's new book, use the promo code 09POD to save 30% on our website at Cornell press.cornell.edu. If you live in the UK, use the discount code see CSANNOUNCE and visit the website combined academic.co.uk. Thank you for listening to 1869, The Cornell University Press podcast