Hey, everybody, Andrew Holecek here. Welcome to this edge of mine podcast, where I have a really special guest today Lama Palden Drolma, who I've known, really for decades. So as usual, I will read a short biography of this remarkable individual. And then we're going to dive into I'm sure really host a wonderfully rich topic. So Lama Palden Drolma is the founder and senior Lama of Sukkah city Foundation, the Tibetan Buddhist center, and the Shang Kappa and Kagyu lineages of Tibetan Buddhism. With gratitude to her gurus, Lama Paul and transmits trains and mentors, students and clients passing on the teachings and practices. The navel wants to reach complete awakening. She has a lifelong interest in comparative mysticism and interest spirituality. While Palden then also worked for years as a licensed psychotherapist, in addition to teaching and now does spiritual counseling at the intersection of the spirituality of spirituality and psychology. Her latest book, Love on Every Breath is on the practice of Tomlin. And it's a wonderful rendering of this ancient practice, bringing it into kind of contemporary formats where we can appreciate its depth and nuance and so Allama polden so delightful to see you again. It's really it's been a long time since we've actually connected in person so to speak. So it's a delight to spend some time with you. Thank you so much.
Thank you. Yeah,
we get started a little bit with with the amazing lineage that you derive from the fact that we study together side by side, at the feet of one of our main principle Guru is, you know, lama tsultrim Khenpo tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche. But tell us a little bit for starters about your amazing relationship with really the giants of Tibetan Buddhism, and amazing pioneers who started to bring this ancient Eastern tradition into the modern West.
Yeah, my route teacher, my primary teacher was kala Rinpoche who has passed away now, several decades, but I was fortunate to study with him a lot in Darjeeling in the Himalayan foothills, and he was the first person to start three retreats in the West. So I was very fortunate to do a three year retreat. Under him that was under the auspices of his center in British Columbia. And, yeah, I mean, he was a great Maha Mudra master as well as being considered one of the top masters of the six yogas of Naropa of Sukkah city. And of ninguna. Right, and he passed on to us both the Champa and Kagyu tradition, so the Kagyu is a very well known Tibetan tradition, and Milla rapers its most famous Yogi that has a whole line of enlightened masters in the Champa tradition was very quiet. It was mostly practice behind the scenes in Tibet by great masters of all the lineages, and he was the primary lineage holder of that and that lineage is back to a whole host of gurus in India in the 11th 12th century, but the primary were two women who were both from Kashmir and Guma and suka city. So that's a very unusual lineage that most of all the teachings come from two women.
Yeah, it was spectacular. I thank you for situating it that way, because people listening may wonder, well, you know, how was it different? Maybe you can say a little bit more about that. How was it different from other schools in the Congo tradition?
Well, it's it really was its own school that kind of at some point got subsumed into the Kagyu or protected by it or something. But it was unique because outside of the Naropa tradition, which is in the Kagyu, it's the only lineage that has its own six yogic practices, the six dharmas so which include the fierce inner heat and the Dream Yoga and etc. And so both suka city and Laguna each had their own teachings and transmissions of the six yoga as as well as a whole complete path of foundational practices and yet on practices and other practices. So this makes it very, very rich and it's unique in that in that it's, it's the practices are all like very pith essence. There's not a lot of words with it. They're very straightened to the point. So the and they were both enlightened women, fully enlightened women who passed on but they didn't. There's not a lot of extensive ritual and words and all that kind of thing. It's a very pith essence, lineage.
Well, you know, I'm sure you've heard the say the more advanced the teaching gets, the simpler it is and the less there is to say right until you basically just worth an absolute silence. But before we get into some of these wonderful nuances, you mentioned attorney you want to explain that and unpack that in our listeners with our listeners and little bit using the medium of Tara, who you're such an expert in. But with your permission, maybe let's start a little bit wide, broad scope and then kind of funneled down to some of the areas that boy you have a tremendous area of expertise and what one is, for starters, you are uniquely situated not only is a female lineage holder of these amazing teachings, but also you've been around for a long time. And you've seen the promise and the peril of the transplantation translation of the Dharma, especially Tibetan Buddhism into the Western milieu. And so, perhaps, from your perspective, give us a little bit of your assessment of the State of the Union in American Buddhism these days and what you've seen over the decades of your work, what what excites you what concerns you and just fairly generally the basic kind of environment Gestalt, what you see?
Well, and I've had, you know, close friends involved with Tera, Vaada, and Zen Buddhism. So I've also been watching what happened with them in fact, even before I came to call her and she had studied with one of the Zen teachers who was a student of Suzuki Roshi, so I've kind of watched them unfold to, I think. Now speaking from within the Tibetan tradition, the great masters who really started bringing Vajrayana Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism to the West in the 70s. Were such giants they you know, most of them had done decades of retreat in mountain caves and retreat centers and were just amazed, amazing embodiment of wisdom and compassion. There was so much depth of their understanding and so much compassion that it just really radiated out of them. And so they did an amazing job in the beginning and then over these decades of planting the seeds in the west and really, so much has sprung up from the seeds. It's kind of amazing, because Tibetan Buddhism is, you know, very strange from a Western point. Of View until you get more deeply into it. It's It's amazing that so many people have taken to it. And then you know, generations of other younger teachers have come over and Western teachers have been trained both in through your retreats and elsewhere. And so I think, you know, a really good start has been made a really good initial planting of the Dharma here. And you know, our generation your my generation, Andrew, you know, a lot of us there was a lot of spiritual interest. So we'll see with the upcoming generations, you know, how much spiritual interest there is for them and, you know, if, if we can really unpack these traditions enough to to bring the relevancy of it to modern day America, you know, in the for the youth. I know that in a lot of the centers, a lot of the people who are involved are really aging now and, you know, new young people are coming but you know, we'll really see in the next 10 to 20 years, what unfolds and if it continues to take root and really mature and grow and I think empowering younger teachers is one of the keys to this and I actually empowered my successor who you know Loma Linda, wonderful, about four years ago, and she's generation behind me. And so I think, you know, a lot is going to be in their hands at this point in terms of continuing the work and also with the younger Tibetan teachers who are still teaching, you know, of which we have quite a few I think Zahm came to this country, the in the earliest it was the first to come here so they're, they're more already in the second generation teachers. You know, they are sort of a generation ahead of Tibetan Buddhism. And the Tera Vaada tradition got started a little bit before the Tibetan tradition really got started. So they're a little further along to, and we've also had a lot more Tibetans come over which I think has been a huge blessing. But it also may have been a cause for us to be a little slower in terms of completely translating the tradition for the West.
And I'm curious a lot of what you just said, let's talk a little bit more about this, because there are different types of translation we have obviously liturgical translations, taking the texts and bringing them into our language. But perhaps, in the way you and I roll, the the invitation, the challenge of cultural translation, how do we how do we take this stuff like you mentioned? I mean, if you want bells and whistles, madmen, is there any tradition that has more bells and whistles and Tibetan Buddhism, ah, like amazing, and so on. Well, that well, it can be quite learning inviting on another level, it can be like really off putting. So what do you see both is in your role? As a cultural translator, if I can append that labels you? What do you see as successes and failures of this translation? Or is it too early to say should we be more patient?
Well, I think that the translation culturally is happening. And I think it's very much even though to some extent, Trumper Rinpoche really got that started the cultural translation and then you know, teachers, Western teachers after him in his lineagen as for example, Pema children or yourself and and then in all the other traditions as well, but I think so I think a lot has been done, but I think there's a lot more to do. I think we're in the middle of it. I think that version of Buddhism is so in depth, and there's so much to it, that even to begin to understand what's all there in order to unpack it is a huge undertaking, because a lot of what happens in the tradition happens in your own direct experience. The practice has revealed their truth to you as you practice them. So there's, like you said, there's liturgical translation, and there's translation of philosophical texts and a huge amount of actual transit has happened, you know, for books and texts and an oral translation of Tibetan teachers teachings. But I think, far less has happened in terms of really profoundly unpacking what these teachings and practices are really about because then some of that just has to happen within the individual because it is self revealing as you do the practice. But some of it can also be communicated by people that are Westerners that have done the practices over decades and from their own experience can share, you know, what this has meant to them or what they've discovered through the whole process. And that's what I've been in the process of doing. And so I think it's very much an ongoing situation. I think there's a lot more to come.
You know, this is this, this is fantastically important because, you know, the the visor, Rihanna slash Tantra. This is virtually synonymous with Tibetan Buddhism. It's just it's such a tradition of power and impact and transformative capacity. But But I mean on one level, I mean, is the West ready for tantra? I mean, do do we have the capacities to deal with this kind of thermonuclear spiritual energy? As I sometimes say, will it will light us up or will it burn us up? So talk to us a little bit about you know, this is I'm a retired doc and so I used to write 1000s of prescriptions, and a lot of them were prescription strength meds, right. And so, I look at VAs Viana Tantra as prescription strength, spirituality. And so I don't want to stretch these metaphors too far, but Right, should it should we be more interested in over the counter approaches? how adaptable can we make something like the Tantra and advisory on it before we kind of edit it out of its power framework? So I guess the question is, do you think that the West is truly ready to incorporate the magic and the majesty of these teachings or are we just too impatient, too facile rushing to the goodies, you know, it's just so sexy to do these esoteric practices, but I think sometimes we lose the preparation, and sometimes we can get in trouble. So I'm curious what your rendering is.
Yeah. Well, I think it's really primarily an individual question. You know, and I think it also depends on how well people are prepared with teachings to go into further depth and if they want to go into further depth, of course, that's up to the individual, but I think there needs to be a lot of foundation you know, in and virginiana has not always been so good in the West in giving people a really adequate foundation. So I think that's really really important. And key to this is not only all the essential Buddhist teachings which are across all the different Buddhist traditions in the world, the core understanding of the essential teachings of Buddha taught, but also a huge base in loving kindness and compassion, which you know, as they say, you know, absorption one of the, you know, preeminent practices of Tibetan Buddhism, there's two wings to the bird, compassion and wisdom. And, you know, a lot of times, people don't necessarily understand how important loving kindness and compassion are, both for the self and for others, and how we truly are interconnected with everything that is all other beings and everything that is, and this necessitates a tremendous amount of kindness. And compassion. And so I think the fundamental level that even as human beings we're not going to survive unless we learn to cooperate together unless we learn to live in harmony, and actually move forward with decisions and actions that we need to do in order to address the challenges facing us as human beings. That's a core level and like, so this core level of human maturity and wisdom, simply really deeply understanding the interconnectedness and how much, you know, understanding is needed to really live as a as a species together, you know, that's like foundational and I think that's part of what people really need to know and understand in terms of doing foundations of Buddhism, and how do we apply the principles of Buddhism to ourselves and then to our interactions with others, so that we are able to live in harmony and then, you know, with a really strong basis of training in the essentials and in loving kindness and compassion and what we call in the Tibetan tradition bodhichitta you know, the aspiration to awaken on behalf of all sentient beings. With a strong basis and all of that then I think that if people are so inclined, then that shows that they're ready, you know, to go on to the more advanced stages of Tantra, and it's so powerfully transformative that I would love to see it do well in the West because for those people who are interested and do have a strong foundation, you know, through their center, their life path or whatever, then it's remarkable how thin you know how helpful it can be.
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. If you have the proper holding environment, you know, then it's Jeff, you're right, but talk to us a little bit. About so if someone comes to you, I get these questions with some regularity. Someone comes to you they're intrigued about the the Tantra, the budget, Rihanna. How do you counsel them? I mean, where do you recommend they go and also very closely connected to this question is the perennial question of How did you find the right teacher right. So can you talk to us a little bit about the, the promise and peril of both of those, how do you get in to this path safely? How do you find an appropriate teacher? Because again, if it's done properly, well, there's tremendous potential here.
Well, you know, it depends either I'll direct people to the center I founded which I'll talk about what happens with that in a minute. Or if you know if, if that isn't what people are interested in I'll advise them to really go and take teachings at different places and from different teachers to see what really resonates in their heart. I actually was led to call him che through my prayers to Mary which is kind of interesting. I was praying to Mary to meet my teacher and I had been studying in Sufism and mystic Christianity and Zen and was really studying inter spirituality way back in my teens and early 20s. And then I was praying to marry and God led to my teacher but i i The reason I wasn't even a Buddhist at the time, but I knew when I saw kala Rinpoche within about five minutes, I knew he was my teacher. And that's, you know, that's a little unusual to know so definitively, so quickly, but I think if people go and take teachers, teachings, from different teachers, and really feel if there's a resonance there with that person, so for me, it was more of the person than the tradition and then through that, you know, I moved to the Himalayas and became, you know, deeply involved in study and receiving transmission and meeting many of the Tibetan masters and then I developed a huge appreciation for the tradition. So I think people need to really learn to trust their own heart, their own inner knowing their own inner gut feeling, you know, and at our center, what I did was, I started a series of programs so that people can go through a step by step process, that is a holding environment, a safe, clean, hold, holding environment, and that's the other thing. There's been so many problems with different centers in terms of sexual activity are different kinds of problems, you know, with money or whatever, that people have to be careful when they you know, go to teachers to really find out what's really going on and if they feel a lot, you know, aligned in terms of their integrity and ethics, but at Sukkah city foundation, so we have different levels of programs. So you can take a foundational program, which we call Dharma training program and get a lot of foundation and in fundamental Dharma and go quite quite deeply. And there's both study and practice and then there's another level we call Bodhi level and then you go further, much more into the Mahi and into starting into some of the emptiness teachings and a tremendous amount about mind training and love and compassion and these types of things. And then And then, you know, third level into Tantra and beyond and fourth level is into further Tantra etc. So I started this graduated program, because I was so grateful I've been able to do through your retreat and I was just so I was just so love the three retreat. I wanted to be able to bring those teachings to people that couldn't go away for three years, or three and a half years to do retreat. Like I know you did, too, but you know, many people can't do that. Don't have the opportunity. And so I created these programs to give people the teachings in a systematic way and to be able to eventually do the three year retreat practices. You know, in the third and fourth year, levels of the program.
And I'm curious, I this is I was gonna ask you, this is a very precious set of comments that, I think is a fantastic cultural thing that you cultural translation thing that you've done. But have you gotten blowback? I mean from from other teachers or other traditions you don't need to name names, but I'm curious. I mean, are you comfortable in what you're doing and confident or have you had some, some feedback from others who challenge what you're actually well,
I've been, I've been really fortunate. All the Tibetan lamas have 100% supported me even Lamas from other lineages have come up to me and said, Thank you so much for what you're doing and teaching the Champa you know, people from Nigma lineage Rinpoche, who have told me that and so I've gotten nothing but support really from the Tibetans, and many different Tibetan lamas. Have. You know, when choleric che first started deeply training Westerners with three year retreat. A lot of the Tibetans were scandalized, because they had never, you know, given these teachings out, that were so precious to them, you know, they'd never given them out to people from other countries are around the world. And they were a bit, you know, taken aback by the whole thing, but then many of them followed later after kala Rinpoche and so, yes, so the lamas have been incredibly supportive. And they've also been really very, very supportive. For me as a woman, you know, being a woman and everything. So I've been fortunate that way that and I think it would have been given my personality, it would have been very hard for me if I what didn't have 100% of so many High Lamas support, but because by nature, I'm not a public person. I'm much more contemplative. And I'm, you know, being really public and speaking publicly would not have been ego congruent with me, you know, and I, you know, I've kind of learned to do it and stuff. But all that support made a huge difference for me and I also had unconditional love from my parents. So I was very fortunate on that as well, and support from them. So, you know, I think, because, definitely, as we know, in our culture, men and women are still not equal in our culture and in cultures all over the world. So also huge strides have been made, especially you know, in Europe and in America. But there still isn't real equality. So it's, you know, it is somewhat of a vulnerable position. And for us to be holders of lineages where the our masters were such great giants that were so highly, deeply realized that really somebody like me couldn't aspire to that level of realization in this lifetime. You know, I don't expect many of us will meet the same level as our teachers, but it's also amazing to me how much realization has happened for me and for my students, and I just take that as the power of the practices and the power of the teachings. Yeah, spot
on. This leads to a couple of I think really intertwined and deeply important questions when you're alluding to is that our mutual friend Rita growth, wrote a really influential book called Buddhism after patriarchy. Well, is it you know, this is another arena where you're uniquely situated? boiboi The, the stain of patriarchy, right. So can you speak a little bit about what what you see it in terms of the the echoing the deleterious effects of patriarchy still being evident in a tradition that is we both know and the Tibetan world, largely patriarchal, as it is, I think, in almost any other tradition, but maybe a little bit about how that has played out in your own life and experience and in what you see is the current situation or state around all that?
Well, I think in the West, even so, you know, many people now male and female, support equality of women, there's still a very unconscious bias toward listening to male voices. And that I've experienced that it's completely unconscious that men tend to listen to other men more than they do women and and so and unless you really push yourself into that, you know, as a woman, than often your voice might not be heard. I think in terms of open discussion and listening, we've come a really long ways in the West. And I think, you know, there's another issue I want to bring up here, Andrew, because I think it's really related to this. And it may not seem immediately evident how but I think it's linked. One problem that is still happening with Tibetan culture in terms of dharma is their kind of modus operandi when there were difficult issues was to keep it private and secret. They don't like to talk about difficulties or problems. They like to kind of put it under the rug and just act like it's not happening and that's that's a cultural thing. It's obviously not a Buddhist thing, but it's a cultural thing. But it's very much in the patriarchy of Tibetans, and in the patriarchy of Tibetan Buddhism, and some of the lamas have really jumped out of that and don't support that anymore, but there's still a lot of that where they won't really address certain problems. And I think in the West, you know, often it's been women who've been the brunt. Maybe that's why this is connecting up in my mind, because women have often been the brunt of certain behavioral problems that men have or whatever. And, and so I think learning to really have open discussions around issues of power and dynamics and and perpetrator victim dynamics, and things like this is really, really important for the center's to be able to meet these issues directly, and really have great and deep open dialogues about them. And this is part of the shadow of the patriarchy that we still have with us.
Yeah, totally. And this is also part of the challenge of the cultural translation because you get these reasonably well intentioned people that come to the west. They're not perhaps is comfortable or even aware of the openness, this characteristic of Western approaches to things like psychological problems, sexuality, secrecy, and the like. And so I think the cultural translation thing comes right into play there. And so this ties in immediately to the other issue I wanted to bring I don't I don't mean to leave this but I think it's in conjunction with the next issue, which is, you know, your incredible choice and decision to to get a degree in psychology. To work as a psychologist, psychotherapist, and now as a spiritual counselor. I'd be curious to see how you centrifuge those two vectors out. But but maybe talk to us a little bit about that the role of spirit psychology on the spiritual path, and what point is it advisable for people who are stuck in life situations to look outside the scope of traditional meditative practices? Because if you just keep going hard and fast on one particular track, it may not be the proper rupiahs skillful means for dealing with it. So talk to us a little bit about your experience training, and why in fact, you did this elected to do the assembly and the psychological world, which I think is brilliant, by the way.
Oh, thank you. Well, I did it because I didn't want my you know, I went to three year retreat when I was 30 years old. I hadn't really been working that much at that time. And then I came out and I didn't want my income to be dependent on dharma. And I wasn't even thinking about teaching at that time. Anyway, I had no idea that I would end up you know, teaching a lot and no real desire to do that. So I wanted to find you know, a way to make an income and to me both Dharma and psychology are working with our minds, you know, and of course, our body behavior and speech and all of that, but specifically with the mind, and so that's what interested me and I had since I was a teenager, I'd been interested in mind, psyche and spirit and the body like working all those systems. You know, during the Vietnam War, I was, you know, working against the war, and I realized at some point when I was 15 years old, that the war was also inside of me, and that it needed to bring that into peace inside of me. And so I began working on myself really directly and that was my approach was with the body with with the psyche and with the Spirit. So I've always had a feeling that these all need to work together. And so I went into and trained in therapy, and it was really helpful for me actually, later when I started the center, and I was already Alana at that point, but I wasn't really teaching. And because caller Rinpoche had made me a lama a year after I came out a three year retreat, but you know, I teach if somebody asked me to, but I wasn't really giving programs or anything. But I trained with people who are chronically mentally ill, and that gave me a really good background because I saw the worst of what can happen psychologically and with mental health problems. So it really gave me a great background to know the depth of kind of, you know, some of the disorders and all of that. And what I've seen with students is that especially like we were talking before, when you get into depth, tantra, you're on practice, which I'll just say for a minute Iran has to do with meditating oneself as an awakened being in an awakened mandala. And some people call it deity practice, but I don't like that word because that that word has the wrong connotations. It's really awakened being such as Tara and awaken being a Buddha female Buddha. One has both in interaction with Horus wisdom essence, her awakened mind essence and at some point becomes inseparable with Tara with whoever the ROM is, and one meditates oneself, as I said, As an awakened being and awakened mandola. And this is very powerfully transformative in terms of identity and a whole slew of other issues. But what I found when people go into these in depth practices, there's times when they really need therapy, because it'll bring up deep Tantra practice brings up psychological issues.
I want to weigh in, so I mean, theoretically, we're talking very briefly about the first of the six dharmas, you know John Dalli the inner heat yoga is theoretically you can use that those fires have emptiness to purify but the practically I think your experience probably resonates with mine, that the fire there's not enough fire, there's too much wood, not enough fire. And so instead of actually lighting up, the things get snuffed out and so I love what you've done here. And if you can say just a little bit more around this and maybe in the context of a kind of classic contract Maxim, you know, the greater the obstacles, the greater the opportunities, but along these lines, and maybe you can set this aside for just a second or bring it in what actually constitutes an obstacle. I mean, what is the so called the legitimate obstacle? And what different skill sets can we bring to bear to either transform it alleviated purified or whatever, so I know there's a couple noodles thrown up against the wall here, but that's what comes down.
You know, I think in terms of obstacles, there's, you know, there's mainly in the West, we're dealing with inner obstacles. Most of us have the conditions that we can practice if we want to, we can set aside half an hour an hour or more a day, to practice if we really are motivated. So, you know, that's the outer conditions that we can. So most of us are able to alleviate any obstacles due to that I, you know, had two kids and I practiced even though I was a mother and it wasn't a problem. So the inner obstacles are more like doubt, self hatred, or self loathing, self criticism, anger, you know, these kinds of things, not really believing in oneself, not believing that you can actually do it, feeling unworthy. So all these kinds of things are inner obstacles, which, you know, practice really helps with, but my feeling is that if we combine it with psychotherapy as needed, then it's much faster. It works much faster than just relying on the practice. And I think kind of like you were saying, if we go at something just from one direction, for a long time, you know, really hard or something. It can kind of get stuck and coming out of from another direction can just help loosen everything up and remove the obstacles and things can flow. So that's my feeling that and that the Dharma is really basically presupposed a level of psychological health. already been there. And because our society is so fractured, and families have been so fractured, and there's been so much pain and families and and all of this I think, working through some of these issues, you know, even in the initial stages of being involved with Dharma, or before when comes to dharma, can be really, really helpful. And also, they didn't have self hatred in the Himalayas. And you know, when some of us started noticing, in the 80s, that there was this tremendous amount of self hatred amount among Westerners. And it was in an in the practitioners of the Dharma that this was a problem that people were having to learn to overcome. And I think it was maybe Sharon Salzberg somebody shared this with the Dalai Lama, that this was the case. And because we all started realizing this around the same time, and he said it took him years of mulling this over to even understand what was being talked about it was so far from anything you can even imagine. You know, and I'm sure there were a few people in Tibetan culture, Himalayan cultures that had that kind of thing or you know, and I think in more stratified societies, such as Japan or China was probably more prevalent, but within the Himalayan cultures, they just didn't have that. So this is this. This is something that needs to be worked with, because this is a huge obstacle to awakening. And it's highly uncomfortable. You know, it's not a pleasant state of being. So that I think you know, I don't think the Buddha was really addressing that he was already presupposing that people were basically pretty healthy psychologically. And, you know, I'm not saying that that's a mental illness, but it's, you know, it's, it's something that needs to be addressed and worked through and we need to come to some sort of self love, not a narcissistic thing at all. And I think, you know, it has nothing to do with narcissism.
Now, this and this is where the great contribution of developmental studies and levels of development and structures come into play. And so I'm wondering for, for teachers who may be listening, what advice you might give to them, in terms of when is it appropriate, you said PRN as needed. So, for someone who may not be trained in the psychological world, it's very easy. Sociologists talk about it. Lemon pollen is single action by us. You know, you can put all your eggs in this basket and it's going to deal with it. So I think it takes a fair amount of openness and humility for a teacher or meditation instructor to say this is this is something that could wreck us the discount the talent skills of a body therapist, like us, psychologist psychiatrist in the light. So what advice could you give to a meditation instructor or a teacher for working with is being humble and open to the possibility of a student just like being really stuck? And instead of saying, Oh, you're not meditating hard enough, or you have to go to retreat saying, hey, wait a second. We need to open our skill set here a little bit.
Yeah, I think that it's really helpful to know some psychotherapist that a teacher can refer to people that are practitioners in Buddhist or different tradition of teachers are from a different tradition, in your own tradition, or in another spiritual tradition where they can understand in depth spiritual practice, and you know, know some different people so that you have somebody to refer to, that's not going to tell you know, just think the student is weird for practicing meditation or becoming a Sufi or whatever it is, you know. So I think I think that's number one is to have some people to meet some people in one's own community that can be referred to and and then when we see that students, you know are well, first of all, if they're reporting in interviews, that you know, a whole lot of stuff is coming up. That's very painful to do with their childhood or their parents. Or if we see that they're acting out in certain ways, like they're having problems with other students, you know, or if they're having really strong feelings of lack of worthiness or self esteem and things like this, then we can see these I think we can suggest that at that time that they you know, and then if we have, if we know people we can give a few names to people, you know, you know, as we try to at least give you know, three names if possible. So people have, we're not just funneling people to one person, but you know, and then some people have their own resources and already know various therapists in the community and they can, you know, go to whoever they find. So
super important in how does this this sort of thing. You talk about your work as a spiritual counselor. How is that different from a therapist? I mean, how is spiritual counseling different from psychotherapy? Well,
spiritual counseling isn't necessarily getting into in doing in depth analysis or in depth therapy, you know, a whole therapy about the person's whole childhood and whole life or something like that. That's how I see the difference. You know, there's it's definitely goes into some psychological issues. But it's, it's not an in depth therapy have to do with a person's entire life or it's not an in depth analysis or anything like that.
That's really helpful to know you. And so I think maybe now it's time to come back and throw out a really targeted Dart. You're a great contribution with the Yidam with deity yoga, even though you don't like that term, this this amazing spiritual technology, which it's so core to the tantric traditions. And I think from the outside, somewhat baffling, and even for practitioners for a while as they get into it misunderstood. So talk to us a little bit about the centrality of the place of, of Tara, in your own personal life and why you have chosen to write and teach on her so eloquently, and then just the overall relationship to this this amazing there I use the word spiritual technology, this amazing gift from from the Buddhist tradition about using this particular approach to working with mind and heart.
Well, I think just to set the stage in a certain sense, you know, Buddha have fully and completely awakened and there have been other Buddha's, you know, in the scripture that have been have awakened before him, and really awakened mind is present and in all of us and pervades everything, you know, Dharmakaya pervades everything the awakened mind of of pervades everything and people. So, just like in the I'm going to make an analogy here, but just like, in the Christian tradition, God sent His Son Jesus to come and be among people from out of this formless, awakened mind that's ever present in everywhere, various awakened beings manifest on on the Soboba chi level on the level where they could be seen in visions, and they manifest on a in a human level as teachers sometimes in something so, or, you know, teachers walk the path and become realized in in a certain lifetime. So, Tara both has a story of eons ago when she was a human being and she awakened and she also has a story where she was more you know, magically born out of Dharmakaya Buddha Kaya. And at any rate, she's the most famous, along with Quan Yin, who's really the feminine form of Avalokiteshvara. Tara is the most famous of all the female Buddhists and I developed a really close relationship with her in through your retreat because we did her practice every morning. It was one of the ones that we continue through the entire retreat. did quite a long Tara practice every morning. And Tara is like the mother that you know, the all awakened mother that we all wish we had, and, and one can both have a relationship with her as a child to a mother or a friend, a friend, a mentor to a mentee. And then at the same time, because of the way tantric practice works at a certain point, Tara who were praying to having a dialogue with you know, a relationship caught in a relationship with at some point she dissolves into us and we become Tara. And it's this inseparability that. It's very hard for us to imagine our own awakening and in a certain sense, once we can walk into it through your own practice through developing a very close relationship with an awakened being and then becoming inseparable with that awakened being, it helps open the doors to us. Actually walking into the awakened part of ourselves.
This is exactly where we wanted to take this because on one level, I mean, we can relate to Tara in two ways. One is a seemingly external agency. nonhuman intelligence, superhuman intelligence that somebody external to us, but on another level, she represents a latent archetype within us this particular principle, so maybe see a little bit more about this. It's fantastic. I like to think of it as like we're this we're being sandwiched between both the unawakened but evoked internal archetype and the seeming external agency of Tara so can you say a little bit more about the relationship between inner and outer Tara and Tara principle along these lines? Does that make sense?
Yeah, you know, as we open to either a teacher or an awakened being such as Tara we begin to experience their awakening as the relationship progresses and we get to know our teacher or we get to know an awakened being such as Tara. We can actually start to experience awaken presence. And that helps us to open to our own awakened presence that we are totally not in touch with. It's like a channel gets carved. It's like a pathway opens up. So, you know, I think this is why people love to be around the Dalai Lama. You know, even people that have no interest in spirituality have been deeply, deeply moved by him, and deeply, you know, enjoyed and rejoiced in His presence and being able to be with him. You know, a bunch of scientists at Stanford or Harvard or whatever, you know, who never really had a mystical interest or anything but they just were so elated to be in His presence. It's because through a human being or some Boga chi being these visionary beings, being able to open to their presence, it's like, we begin to experience something different in ourselves that we never experienced in ourselves before, which is this awaken presence. It's like it opens the pathway to that as I said before, inside of ourselves. It's a mirroring of a certain sense of what is essentially true within ourselves that we are awakened and that we just are out of touch with that. So that's, that's how I experience it. And this is where devotion comes in, because devotion, the right kind of, you know, with the right kind of object for the devotion or the right kind of approach. to it. We open ourselves to awakened experience.
So see more if you weren't so great. This mean this year and practices have been central to my life for three decades. I mean, I every morning I do I don't do a Manjushri practice every morning. I have a deep connection to so many of these amazing practices. Talk to us a little bit about the role of the imaginal here and using the power of imagination to catalyze this kind of awakening. Yeah, that's
really interesting because, you know, it's sort of like fake it till you make it or something. As we can imagine, in the very beginning, and this is really important. I think that you brought this up in the beginning of doing this type of meditation practice. It is imagining, we are imagining Tara for example, in front of us, we're imagining her presence. We're, we're talking in the liturgy about her various qualities and activities. And you know, we're experiencing transmission from her maybe, you know, a stream of nectar comes down elixir. You know, through her hand down into us or something like this. So there's this interchange going on, and it's all in our imagination. And eventually what happens is, you know, it sounds like you could be going crazy but actually not because these are 1000s of years old practices, which many people have awakened doing. Eventually, what happens is that it becomes much more real. And, you know, people used to ask choleric shaman I was with him all the time. Are your arms real are they archetypes and he said, they're as real as you are. Or unreal as you are. Yeah, there is real or unreal as you and I. Yeah.
Yeah, that's fantastic. So
that's pretty darn real. On one level, there's no self and no other but, you know, it's still pretty real to us. And so the fact we exist and don't exist and that is beyond existing or non existing, you know, is obviously one of the great cons of Buddhism, but, but developing a relationship. These beings do exist in that certain sense as we exist and there can be a real live transmission. And so the imagination gives way to an actual quote, unquote, real experience
ethic and I'm sure you've experienced this but I've noticed that more and more I just did a program with attentive one girl and in Virginia, and we're talking a little bit about this topic and a question came up in the with a group and it didn't take very long for me to assess that this person has what's called a Fantasia, which is the inability to visualize so talk to us a little bit about if you can about this is my languaging. The importance of feeling isolation, that it's not just this cognitive cartoon, I mean, farm Rinpoche once said, I love this you may have heard this. Cartoon visualization brings about cartoon realisation, which is fantastic. And so one way to bring the cartoon to life is through Soma through somatization through feeling causation. So talk to us more about the embodied visceral somatic, and therefore an affective component that there is this devotional that it's not just a cerebral mental construct, there's actually affective components to it of her warmth and her love and that sort of thing. So
right and what's been taught and what I'm always emphasizing as well. Is that the most important thing is to actually feel feel the presence of the awakened one. And whether if you can't visualize that's okay, clean of them being present. And over time, again, this becomes stronger and stronger. And so it is. Tantra is a full body experience, the body, the mind, the emotions are never separate in Tantra. They're all there right together. And so, a feeling of the presence I mean, this has to do say for again, we're using Tara as an example, studying about her. We can learn that, you know, she is the all loving mother, she has this incredible patience. She's able to remove fear she can remove anxiety, you know, through prayer to her through reciting her mantra. She can remove other kinds of obstacles and and she can transmit to us full awaken body speech in mind. So again, if the if it's done through feeling the feeling can be imagined to and until it actually begins to be real. And you know, we all have kind of an idea of what an awakened mother would feel like or be like, and we can we can imagine that and, you know, and then the practices are so skillful, like, you know, like simply imagining that from Taris Han streams down this liquid, light as as elixir and it goes through the crown of our head into our body, filling our entire body with healing energy, imagining that feeling that is very powerful. Beautiful. Yeah. Okay, I'm just gonna say that as a child, something happened. To me, which made me feel uncomfortable. And I did a practice like this, that I just thought up myself. And when I was seven years old, at the end of my bed every night before going to bed, I would have Jesus come, and Jesus would put his hand on my head and stream down healing energy into me and I did that every night until I felt like us completely healed.
That was really, really great. So I can imagine people are listening and going, Wow, this sounds great. This is really cool. Wow, where can I do this? So, so the difference between maybe Sutra and Tantra, Tara, if people are really here going wow, I really wanted to do a Tarot practice. What can they do? Where can they go?
Well, um, yeah, I mean, they we have our center, Sukkah city Foundation. We do a lot online. So there's, there's that. People can look into Tibetan Buddhist centers in your area, and again, really try to assess what's going on if everything feels okay. If it seems like the place is in integrity, and it's wholesome and there's not funny business going on or anything and if it really feels right, most of the Tibetan centers from all the lineages teach to our practice. And so, you know, there's a number of avenues and
you can't really what I'm hearing you saying is you can't really learn this from a book there has to be some personal communication, some instruction, say more about oh, yeah,
this is true. Now. It's true with ties to be transmitted. So it needs to come through a living lineage. So you can read about Tara just to find out more, but then you actually need the transmission a teacher to actually transmit the practice to you and to explain it and everything. You know, books can go a certain distance, but they can't go all the way enough to really give you a full on practice. And then
with all the deities that are there, like right, you know, you walk into what I was saying earlier, the temples with oh my gosh, there's so many deities and there's like overwhelming how does one pick they're there yet? Um, or does the you know, so to speak, pick them. How does this kind of choice and resonance come about? Is there some magic?
A lot of times, it just depends on what you're really drawn to. And if somebody goes through a whole progressive training, they get introduced to different usernames. And then they they have an affinity very strongly, you know, with one of the ones that they've been introduced to, or if they haven't been introduced to somebody and they feel a really big affinity. They can ask for an empowerment transmission into that particular unit on but it's in the final analysis. It's really an internal knowing. And usually, you know, it's something you might want to talk with your teacher about.
So there almost seems to be this kind of karmic self selection thing going on. I mean, there's there's a little bit more magic involved and someone who's coming in off the street and saying, Ah, you know, I want to learn about tarot, right? I mean, there's this kind of, that's
where it starts. Yeah, that's where it starts. Yeah.
So I want to come back. We talked about just the circle back and a couple of things here before we we start to close up a little bit. What is the in your experience and in your view, the role of these modern agents of transmission Like for instance, there's all this incredible technology these days Hemi sync and all kinds of really cool Neurofeedback things and I mean, really, some of its pretty sophisticated stuff. And then psychedelics oh my gosh, I think that's the Renaissance these days around that is extraordinary. So I'm curious how were you come down on those sorts of things, because again, as part of the cultural translation thing, are these in fact legitimate skillful means for the Western world? Or is it like, you know, chemical mysticism, spiritual bypassing? What what do you see as the role the promise and peril of these western potential skillful means?
Well, I think the neuro stuff can be extremely helpful if people are drawn to that, you know, it's basically not dangerous. I myself come from a psychedelic background. I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area in the 60s, so definitely had psychedelic experiences and used it even back in those days as a teenager. You know, I used it in a very spiritual way and often meditated on psychedelics or something. So I had a lot of openings in that way. So I think psychedelics can be very profound aids on the path, but they're, they're riskier, you know, they're, they have a lot more risk and so they need to be used properly with the proper kind of guidance and the proper type of set and setting and all of that and not used, not overly used. That's one way they can become dangerous. If you take too much psychedelics in a short period of time, or, you know, that kind of thing. And it also depends on the person's psyche. Some people they're really not good for, but for other people, they've been life changing. So, you know, it's something to be approached with caution, but it can be helpful on the path. I don't feel like even though I had tremendous insights on psychedelics, and actually opened me up to wisdom from previous lifetimes and that kind of thing as well. It I think, to get really lasting change, lasting transformation then when really needs deep practice. That's my own feeling.
Yeah, the classic conversion from a states to trace or in Tibet live from now hooked by because otherwise you become a state junkie, right? You just shopping around for another experience,
right? States to trace Yeah. Or experience to station. You know, Sufis call it like the state or a station, you know, where it's really fully embodied in you.
Well, one thing you know, because of your unique situation, if your demographic is anything like mine, and it's fantastic, I probably when I do my programs, 60 to 70% of the people that attend are women, which is fantastic. And so maybe a little bit more specific to the women who are listening. If it's even appropriate to separate out this advice from from men who might be listening, but because of because of your capacities, any particular advice to women who may be listening about your experience with the Dharma altogether your experience with with adrionna your experience with teachers, things to be aware of things to be, you know unnecessarily paranoid about but we're all acutely aware of what what happens, what continues to happen with the seemingly highest levels of these communities where entire communities are devastated by these sorts of things. So can you speak with heart to heart level with some of the female participants who might be listening and what kind of advice and counsel you might give?
I think, you know, you listeners may have noticed that I'm actually a very devotional person, and yet, we should never leave our discerning intelligence at the door, and all of my teachers all the greatest masters completely support and you know, like keeping your own intelligence intact. So in other words, we have to go into situation with our eyes wide open. And, number one anything to do with sexuality is an equal playing field. No one is higher or lower when it comes down to sexuality. So you don't need to engage in anything sexual unless it's something you really want to do. There's no reason why a teacher should strong arm any student into a sexual relationship. And there's no nothing in Dharma that says that you should acquiesce to that if you don't feel like it or you don't want to it's an equal. So I think there's this balance of both having being open, which is really the beginnings of devotion having an open heart and an open mind, but also you know, really having your discerning intelligence on board all the time. And if things are looking funny to investigate and see if really funny things are going on, are things being swept under the rug are people willing to talk about things? Are there seemingly really unhealthy things going on in the Sangha or with the teacher anything like that? We need to really be aware of this. And devotion doesn't mean that we wouldn't really question a teacher or really speak to them frankly about our concerns. If a teacher is a good teacher, they want to hear our concerns. They want frank discussions. They're open for that. Now, it may not be their culture to have that they may be a male from Asia, and they may not have a culture of speaking openly like you brought up yourself Andrey. You know, they may not be used to that. But if it's done, you know, in a way where one is sincere and bringing up and they don't want to talk about certain things, then they're not really a viable teacher for the West. Too many things can go wrong. We so this is what I would say to women in particular, since women have particular vulnerabilities, you know, and feel like they, they have to do things because the teacher said they should. There's nothing you ever have to do, you know, in terms of ordinary life, which sexuality falls under any of these different things. You know, you don't have to give up your family. You don't have to have sex you don't have you know? Sure. And I think, you know, it's better if teachers, you know, give suggestions anyway, like a suggestion. This is, you know, I think this would be a really good practice for you, you know, what do you think, you know, but teachers should not be in the business of running their students lives or telling them what to do.
Okay, so, idiot devotion, I mean, it's perhaps a strong term but perhaps not there's it's such a tricky thing in this business because is you know, surrender and using the power of devotion, which is really just the power of love harness for awakening. I mean, this is the rocket fuel of the vagina devotion. is arguably the most important ingredient of the 5g piano. And so for people that don't have perhaps structure, psychological maturity, they may be developed along one line of growth but a little bit arrested in another. We get these sorts of things. So immediate devotion, I think is is a colossal near enemy of genuine devotion that you surrender to these energies, which often then come from these these cultural patriarchal containers, which, which really are just completely inappropriate at best in the Western world. Right.
Absolutely. I completely agree. I was almost going to bring up that term myself earlier today to idiot devotion, its devotion, we still have all our discernment on board.
All the faculties Yeah. and not be afraid to ask the tough questions and not be able to go to a seemingly senior students in saying, Hey, this is what's happening. And then again, just your BS meter should be a little bit on red alert. As BS meter should be turned on. Yeah. That'd be willing. Yeah. So a lot more pollen. Thank you so much. As we start to close up. Any final questions that I didn't ask anything that you want to convey and and share with us like the things that you may be currently working on saying a little bit more about your marvelous organization to consider the foundation and the like anything else that you want our listeners to be aware of?
No, I think they can google supercity.org or I have my own personal website too, which is in the process of starting to update llama pollen.org. But I think what I want to say is that we live in an unprecedented time where so much is available to us spiritually from so many traditions, and there's very authentic teachers and teachings out there. And so it's a tremendous opportunity for us to avail ourselves of this situation and it's just joyful to see so many plants in the garden that are in the flowers of all these different plants have so many different traditions. And to really, you know, if you're spiritually interested or seeking to really follow your nose and see what Santa is drawing, knew and really really pursue and, and possibly, you know, we always say it's good to practice in one tradition, so you have a solid, cohesive practice, but it's also good to study other traditions to kind of get a broader viewpoint, which is very healthy to have a broader viewpoint and on the essential issues. The deep mystics all agree throughout all traditions, you know, the true contemplatives the true mystics, there's deep, deep, common, least shared wisdom and knowledge, you know, that comes from these paths. And so I think it's just a great time and so much richness to be shared so much richness to avail ourselves of
spot on and it's one of the things I so appreciate about you and your work is the my language and of course, but diversify your portfolio. Right I mean, just just invest in the psychological arena second in the body work and in the heart work and and so called spiritual work, so that then you catch yourself in your skillful means across the complexity of the human condition and that take kind of false allegiance in one particular bandwidth or tradition, because I think that's where even the power of tradition can backfire that can become ossified and it's my way or the highway kind of thing. And we're in this information age, there's there's tremendous potentiality here. If we keep our eyes wide open, we pay attention and then you know, I have some guidance have some, hopefully like you or others who have a little bit of mileage under their belt who can just counsel us so we don't waste time and detours and dead ends.
Absolutely.
So Allama Posen, thank you so much. We'll post the links to your to your websites below the US and I personally look forward to future encounters with you and future offerings that you have. You've made such a contribution to dharma in the Western world. I for one had been a big long term fan. And so personally, it's just a total delight to connect with you on this level and share your great gifts to my community is really enough. Thank
you so much. Yeah, delight to see you and hope we get to meet soon in the future.
It would be a delight. All the best. Take care.
Thank you. Bye.
recording stopped. Already. Nice and sweet. I'll write this up and get it to you want Bob and a couple of days or so. And off to enjoy a little bit of Sunset sunset. The sun disappears. So yeah. I'll see you back steady. Good. All right. Thank you. Hey, I
