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So welcome to the good community, where Nonprofit Professionals, philanthropist, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
So let's get started. Hey, Becky,
hello. You know that question of like, who's the smartest person in the room, it's not us today, our expert, smartest gal in the room.
And she's the person that we've heard so many people just love her so much. And we're delighted to get this just spend time with her. We're talking to Rio Wong. She is such a disruptor. In this space. She was disrupting before it was cool to disrupt, not to aid you at all, because you have such an amazing voice for the sector. But she has really done it all. You know, she is one of those voices that came up through nonprofit and has been on the front lines, and so was able to really speak directly to the pain points that we feel, and to the mindsets that really shift the conversation in a dramatic way. And so she's now shows up and she's a consultant and serves all the different facets of an organization. But one thing I love about her is her podcast. It's the nonprofit lowdown it just has an incredible vibe to it. She's so conversation. It's amazing. Yeah, and has really honest Rob, but really actionable conversations. It's not just theory. It's also just how to apply and that's the space that I think she just loves to live in. But Maria has raised millions of dollars in private philanthropy. She's become a leader in the New York nonprofit community. And she's a frequent commentator in the media telling you she is everywhere all the time. I don't know how she does it. Maybe she can spell some of those secrets today, too. But she is in Brooklyn with her amazing dog baby that we get to meet. Hi, Stevie.
Welcome to the show. Rio. We're so excited that you're here.
Okay, Becky, John, thank you for having me. That was the most amazing intro I've ever received you guys. I'm gonna hire you as my height people. I'm just gonna play that whenever I go anywhere, like listen
to you. That would be my dream to be somebody. person. You were doing podcasting before podcasting was cool. I mean, you have 160 Something episodes at this point that we're recording. And you have been pushing the bounds on these conversations, and these concepts and ideas. And I love that we're going to talk about mindsets today, because it's one of our favorite topics as well, because you could have the best training in the world, you could have the best curriculum in theory. But if you don't have the mindsets, and the confidence, the bravery, the courage, the empathy, the the abundance, to go out and take on this sector, you are not going to be living up to your full potential. And we have the queen of that today. So Rhea, welcome.
Thank you so much. Yeah, I listen, I love podcasting. I love the space. And actually, my podcast just started off. Because, you know, we've mentioned a few of my friends that you've interviewed or been in community with. And I just thought I had such an amazing community of people in New York, I was like, I feel like I should share this wealth with other people in the sector. You know, like, here in New York City, we have such amazing people. And so it was one of those things where you see your friends, like, yeah, we'll have coffee, we'll have prints and like we never did. So I was like, I'm gonna stick a microphone in your face. And I have republishing calendar. So we got to talk. And it's been it's been a lot of fun. And it really tickles a lot of my interest. Because I'm a I'm a learner, I just like new and interesting things. So, but thank you. Yes, it's been a lot of fun.
Do you think that is what gravitates us to you? And I think we have such kindred spirits, like just this idea of learning along the way. And I feel that from just the way that you create and share, and you come and show up humbly in that regard to that you're always learning. So would you kind of share a little bit of your story, give us a little bit of your background, what led you to where you're at today and some of the stuff you learned along the way?
Yeah, definitely. So I grew up in San Francisco, relocated to Brooklyn, and I was a 26 year old executive director of an educational nonprofit called Breakthrough New York, which actually wasn't even a nonprofit at the time. It was a program housed under Independent School. And it was, you know, a very classic story. I think a lot of your listeners might, might relate, which is like, Alright, congratulations. Here are the keys. Here's their email address. And I was like, what? So first two Google searches on the job. The first was, what does an executive director do? And the second was, how to fundraise. I like that I was that clueless.
I hurt you so much right now. Thank you for sharing that. I mean, the person who bought marketing for Dummies when she got her first director of marketing job too, so
literally I bought like the how to write a grant proposal book, right? I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. At the time it was we were, I think, like a $200,000, your organization, so relatively small, and it was all largely private individuals. And so over the course of being at the organization, 12 and a half years, I grew it to just a little under $3 million in private philanthropy. So that was foundations, corporate individual events. We didn't really have government money. And I expanded the organization to two different sites. So I think when we started, we were serving like, like, 30 kids a year, by the time I left, we were serving 550 kids a year. So I started to see tremendous growth. I was like, Wait, but why did it take me like 12 years to figure this out? I'm a smart person, this really should have been a lot faster. And so when I left the organization, I dedicated myself to be cut. Well, I had a very short stint in tech wit, and I decided that was not going to be my jam. And then I started, I really kind of by accident, I was looking for the next thing to do. You know, I took a couple of projects on for my other executive director, friends were like, Oh, you have some free time, great. I have a project and like one project led to the next. The next one was like, I guess this is what I'm doing now. And then it sort of in the pandemic, I really pivoted to be like, wait, what do I really know, and I'm good at and know that the sector needs its fundraising. So this maybe will lead us into the our next conversation, but I love money and love talking about money. I love thinking about money. I love thinking about how other people can like money. So let's talk about it.
And I love that you're completely breaking all the stereotypes that our parents perpetuated of do not talk about money, and money. I know. And that in itself is kind of a scarcity mindset approach because we're prohibited from sharing and giving and giving can be so social and the way that we've watched even peer to peer fundraising and the way that we see grassroots fundraising is just so fascinating. So love that your have kind of hung your shingle on that area. But I think the thing that we just love, and we were so geeked out to talk to you about was how you embrace and foster the right mindsets. And so we're headed into a new year and you're just such an industry thought leader. And we're wondering, what advice would you share for how people can start to embrace the right mindsets? In this new year of fundraising, knowing what the world is looking like right now? And how much our sector is shifting? Where would you start with that?
Yeah. So can I share a story? You can always share story on this? Okay. Yes. Okay. So I, like I mentioned, I grew up in San Francisco in the 80s and 90s, at the height of the AIDS and crack crises in the Bay Area. And so then, as now there were lots of people who live on the streets. And I remember, it's like eight years old, I would say eight or nine, it was pretty young. And I walked past this homeless man, on his placard it said, former vet hungry and homeless, please help. And I reached my pocket, and I gave him a quarter. And my father whipped around and he saw me do it. And he goes, Oh, so you're so rich. Now you can just give money away. And so in that moment, I in my DNA absorbed this idea that money is scarce, we have to hold on to it, we can't share it. And so in my family, my my grandparents were immigrants from China escaped the Communists came to the country with like, $20 in their pocket. And so in my family, money stood for stability and security, right, because that's what they needed when they came to this country. We didn't have any despair. And we were two seconds away from being destitute, though. So it wasn't empirically true. But the feeling was always there. Like, we need to squeeze every penny. And so when I became a fundraiser, I never really loved fundraising. I thought of it as like a necessary evil of the job, right. And I was actually pretty good at it, because I like people, but I just never found it to be a joyful thing until I remembered the story that had happened to me. And I was like, oh, wait a second, maybe the way that I think about money, maybe the way my family thinks about money isn't actually the way that everybody else thinks about money. Because, psychologically, in my mind, I was projecting my own issues and trauma and stories about money onto my donors. And so I was like, I'm psychologically subconsciously thinking that I'm asking them to give up their security and their stability and somehow asking them to experience the sense of shame that I experienced when I gave that quarter away. And it wasn't until I kind of unpacked it. I was like, Oh, but wait a second. Maybe this is just a story. And maybe this is a story that my family tells maybe this is not the same story, everybody experiences maybe in some families, giving money is a joy. It is a legacy is what they do in their family. It is a religious calling, and maybe this is an invitation and an opportunity to be connected and not to feel guilt and shame and like Enos around money and that just changed everything. So Becky, to your point around like the mindset, I think whether we're talking about generosity or whether we're talking about money scarcity or whether we're about anything, it's really about the story that you're telling yourself. And the story that you're telling yourself then provides and activates the feelings that you have about it. But you can tell yourself any story, you want it to choose your own adventure.
I just think like, how often do people new coming into the sector? We're going to talk to them about the basics. How often have we skipped mindset, like, how did we go our whole career, Becky, and we never as a staff team sat down with leadership saying, Hey, what is your personal money, beliefs that may be limiting the way that you're approaching or walking in or inviting people into giving? That is probably one of the biggest gains you could have in a staff team is moving those things that are holding us back. So I love that you were like just owning that straight on?
Yeah, I mean, I think that's so I have a group coaching program. And that's a fundamental, that's one of the first modules we deal with, because everything stems from that, because it's almost like if you're trying to lose weight and trying to get in shape, right. So you could have all of the fancy gyms sign up with the trainer have all the diets in the world. But fundamentally, if you don't want that, if you don't believe that you deserve to be healthy, then you're never going to do all the things similarly with, with fundraising. And Becky, I think you mentioned it, it's like you could have all the fancy CRM systems, you could have all the prospects, you could have all of the tools at your disposal. But if you're not actually able to go inside and take those brave steps and actually own your own your ish as they were, you're not actually going to be that successful as a fundraiser or not as successful as you could be or not as joyful as you could be. And I think we need to talk about joy, because at the end of the day, fundraising can be really fun, right? Because you're just setting a table, and you're just saying who wants to be invited to the party?
I just think that is so good and helpful, you know, to kind of reframe it into me It keeps coming back to isn't our whole job like listening and understanding what are their motivations? What are their mindsets. So it's just we're going about it all wrong, and being limited by what is in our own brain. So thank you for this kind of tone setting. Is there other mindsets that you've seen to be transformational? And just especially with your group coaching, I love that you offer that I think there's so much power in just community and coaching and community? What are some really big ways that you've seen mindset shift and need to real results as well?
Yeah, I have a couple. So I think as a sector, we have a lot of a lot of baggage, right? I think as a sector, we tell ourselves stories about like, well, what it's supposed to be hard. We're supposed to underpay our staff, we're supposed to burnout. Somehow suffering is a badge of courage in our industry. I'm like, that's terrible. This is why we burn out executive directors and development directors. So I think as leaders, we need to be able to really challenge the stories that we tell about like, what does it mean to be a good nonprofit? We're supposed to only spend 10% on overhead. It's like, okay, well, how has that worked out? So far? Let's talk about that. So I think there are lots of stories that we collectively as a nonprofit culture, I think, really need to examine and challenge. The other thing is, I think I say this a lot. But really, fundraising is just it's a math problem. So the number of offers the number of asks that you make minus the number of noes equals the number of yeses. And I think so often, people are so afraid of rejection, they're so afraid of the nose that they never make the ask. Well, if you don't make the ask you don't get to the Yes, right. And it's not personal. It's not about you. And one of the things that I think has helped people is this idea of like, well, what if as a fundraiser instead of being in the scarcity mindset, and telling yourself that story of like, there's not enough money, and there's not enough this or there's not enough time? What if instead, you imagined that there was some pile of money out there in the world with your name on it, you didn't know who had the pile of money, but it was there. And your job was just to find that pile of money as opposed to conjure up the money that didn't exist. And I just think, when we come from a place of confidence and expectation that there is enough out there for us to do our work, and to feel the change that we've seen in the world, we operate on a different level. It's like, did you ever have that experience when you were like, single and you couldn't catch a date to save your life? And then the minute you were in a relationship, everyone wanted your number, and you're like, where are you? When I was single? And I'm like, listen, desperation is a stinky perfume, y'all. If you're out there trying to raise money, and you're desperate, no, no. So give to that. You need to be like, Look, I'm doing something awesome. If this aligns with your view of the world, and you want to be awesome with us, like come on in and if not, that's cool. There are lots of awesome things to give to.
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I love this conversation around scarcity. That is hilarious. I love your sneaky perfume reference. And I really got to give John a shout out because I have to tell you, I don't think that I thought about mindsets very much entail, John started introducing some of the concepts to me years ago, and I would start to listen to podcast episodes. And I think you have a lot of season fundraisers who know this business inside and out. They know the science of it. They know the processes, they know what to do. But we have seen the impact of the pandemic on everyone's mental health in the last about two years. And never before have we understood that going inside our heads and actually doing some hard work is actually not only going to make the body healthier, but the mind healthier too. And it just has a wonderful cascade effect, I think to all areas of your life. And so I'm wondering like what would be your thoughts around combating this sort of scarcity mindset? And how can our listeners combat that this year?
Yeah. So I have a couple of tactics that I would recommend that people do. So number one is just sit down with yourself and really ask yourself what your own story is about money. So usually that comes from your family. So the question would be, you know, sit down and free right? What did you hear in your family growing up? So my family it was money doesn't grow on trees? Who Who do you think we are the Rockefellers? No, we can't afford that. No, that's for rich people. Right? So like, I heard that stuff. Then what did I see in my family? So I saw a lot of like, you know, pinching pennies, and like, Oh, we're gonna, you know, wait for sales. What did I feel? So a lot of the memories that we have are tied to emotions. And so I would see my parents fight about money, right? And so like, no wonder I had kind of this negative feeling about money because it was tied to this conflict in my childhood, and then have a conversation about like, what would you like to feel about money? Can you carve a different kind of identity for yourself. And so I have my students write out I am the kind of person who write I am the kind of person who attracts money. I am the kind of person who makes big gifts, I am the kind of person who people love to give money to put that on a post it look at it every single day, put your put your monetary goal, your financial goal on a post it and look at it every single day. Right. So I think that's some of it. I think, too. You know, this sounds a little woowoo. So as I mentioned, I'm Northern California, so I speak fluent woowoo. But do meditations on gratitude, right? So I really believe that you are where your energy is, like, similar to what we were talking about the dating thing, like if your energy is all about, like, I can't catch a date, no wonder you're putting out energy that you can't catch a date. So instead, can you do meditations on abundance? Can you actually reprogram your brain because like these neural pathways are created over a lifetime. They're well worn paths. So part of it is we need to create new pathways and new ways of thinking for us to show up differently. I would also say instituting a gratitude practice. So I just started doing the Five Minute Journal. For those of you who may be familiar, you start with three things in the morning that you're grateful for. And then at night, you write down three things and how did it go. And so it really trains your brain to look for the positive. One other thing that I that I did this past New Year, so I would recommend it to your folks is write down on a piece of paper, all of the money stories that you have that are holding you back. You know, money is hard to come by. I'm not good with it. People aren't generous, whatever it is that you tell yourself to keep yourself from being as successful as you want. Take a piece of paper and burn it
when we talk about scarcity. especially with fundraising, I just think to is your story is your vision, like holding back to have these really big conversations like is what you're trying to accomplish attracting people that are going to make visionary contributions, because I do think if we play small, that's what we can expect to get met with, you know, but as we cast bigger picture of what this dream I mean, we can attract people that want to be connected with that level of dream and that level of impact.
Yeah, I like to say bold people like bold ideas, bold gifts are attracted to bold ideas, give me something inspiring to hold on to, because at the end of the day people give, because they want to see some change in the world.
Totally. And that stinky perfume. I'm so glad you said that. Because I'm like, What are we putting out there that is repelling people, you know, from really investing at a deeper level to so this is so, so helpful.
And I also one of the takeaways I'm thinking about that you have, like awakened inside my own brain with this conversation is that gratitude can really be a combatant, of scarcity, if you are living in, you know, a sort of generous spirit. And to your point, I'd love that you brought up joy, as a mindset and seizing joy. I think that it emboldens us, we feel more confident we feel lighter, and it's easier to go to go for it to take a bolder leap. When you're looking around and feeling like you know, I have security here. I have good things that are happening here. And so I do think I just really love the short little tactic of just get a gratitude journal together. Even if you do that on your phone at night, right before you go to bed. Think about what that does for you to do gratitude reflection, right before you go to sleep. I mean, from a mental health perspective, I would actually think that's great. So I'm going to start that tonight. Thank you for the tip.
Yeah, I mean, I think I think it works in so many ways. Like, you know, Becky, I know that you've like manage people. And as a manager, what is more inspiring to people, the manager who tells you like the 10 things you did wrong, or the manager who tells you the 10 things you did? Right? Right. And so similarly, when we're thinking about fundraising, am I gonna spend all my time thinking about, like, all the ways in which we're not raising money? Or am I gonna focus on what's coming in what's working, what we, what we've accomplished, how far we've come? And so I think it's, you kind of have to be it in order to attract it,
no matter? What an incredible statement. And you know, okay, you've been pouring your wisdom. I know, You've been working behind the scenes on your book. And I just we love the lane that you're taking with your book. It's kind of a choose your own adventure for fundraising. Tell us a little bit about the journey and what you're really sharing with the community, the world with your new book.
Yeah, I'm so glad you asked. So my book is basically a distillation of like, 20 years of stuff. In 180 pages, it's kind of a step by step. It's a framework that I've developed as to what I believe is necessary in order to build a major gift program. It's fungible, you can use it to build your institutional fundraising, but I think it's kind of fundamentally what you need. And so Becky and John, as markers, some of the components, you'll really appreciate, like, think about your donor avatar, who's the person that's going to donate to you, why do they donate? Because I think we get in this mindset of like, Oh, I'm in a pitch, I am on a one woman mission to stop the pitch, right? I think it comes from like Wall Street, or Silicon Valley, I don't know where it comes from. But it's terrible, terrible, I have terrible, I have never raised any money on the back of some fancy deck. It's about the conversation. It's about understanding who my donor is, and what they want in the world and aligning their vision of the world to what our organization does. It's tips about how to activate and motivate your board. It's a big component is around this mindset issue we talked about the major donor asks, If you are like me, the 26 year old Ed, who knows nothing about anything, pick up this book. And this will at least get you to pretend like you have a couple years of experience under your belt.
Well, I love that. And we have such a great listener base that's in that Gen Z millennial category. And I just think that they're so hungry. And this is what we love about this group. I think they get a bad rap. But this is a group that is so hungry, about chasing purpose about learning to your point, we think podcast listeners are learners. They're naturally very curious. So I want to give just a plug for re is incredible book because I just think that it can help accelerate, you pass these things of which when I hear you talk about it's like, oh, if I had known that when I was 25, I could have circumvented so many problems that I would experience throughout my career. So I really appreciate you just kind of galvanizing all of that detail and putting it together for us. But okay, I've got to ask you my favorite question on the podcast, which is I want to know a story of philanthropy in this 20 year career that you've had, or maybe even even before that in your childhood, a moment of philanthropy that touched you in change. You.
Okay, I love this question. So this very, very early on, this is actually literally my first year as executive director. So the Hurricane Katrina had come through New Orleans, and I was part of an organization that had a New Orleans affiliate. And so a bunch of my middle school students decided that they wanted to do a talent show fundraiser to raise money for the breakthrough, New Orleans kids, I still get choked up thinking, it's like, so incredible. So they did, you know, the whole talent show together. And, you know, and we worked with kids who were coming from very modest circumstances. And so one of my students, Moses, Barker saw remember this, I think it was in eighth grade at the time, and he was stationed at the front door, handing out programs to everyone who came through. At the end of the event, he sketches this little like crumpled envelope with my name on it, and I opened it up, and it's like a little crumpled $10 bill, and I was like, Moses, you don't have to give money. And he said, No, no, I played drums in my church band in order to do this, because the kids in Orleans need it more than I do. And that $10 has meant more to me than the millions that I've raised, because it was this kid who gave because it it meant something to him. But I think at the end of the day, that's what philanthropy is love of humans, and how are we thinking about using our resources in order to support the things that we care about in the world, whether it's other kids in the world, or oceans, or whales, or dogs or education or
whatever, okay, I'm a puddle on the floor. Moses gets it. Don't you love it when kids just get it, I have an 11 year old daughter, and she is very into Minecraft and there is a YouTuber. And believe me, I don't know the names of any youtubers, except for this guy. Hopefully, you guys all saw the story. But Mr. Beast, put together a $30 million team sees challenge online to raise $30 million in the month of December for the Ocean Conservancy group. And so my daughter who is watching some of these YouTube videos, sees it. And she runs downstairs pulls me up and says, I want to give to this. And the transformational effect I watched that that has had on my daughter has been incredible for her philanthropy journey. She now wants team sees hoodies and stuff to wear around. She's following this, these two organizations that are benefiting from this, she's trying to figure out how she can get motivated to help in the Ocean Conservancy project. And I just think, wow, we talked so much about the potential of Gen alpha, and what they can do. And I just think kids don't have to work through mindset shifts as much as we do, because they haven't had them ingrained, as much. And so I love the story of Moses, the way that philanthropy moves. And the way that it impacts people is so personal and profound, and you have no idea how a quarter or $10 can start someone's legacy journey in a way that is just life changing, not only for them, but for the point their piece that they serve.
I love that it comes back to a 10 year old story because I just think it gives so much credence to the power of philanthropy, which is why all of us get attracted and love this space, just because of the purity of that action. So thank you both. Yeah, that story was just really moving.
Yeah, thank you for sharing that back. Because I mean, look, at the end of the day. I don't, I've not met anyone, I suppose it's possible. But I've not met anyone who's given money out of spite, Phil give money because they care because they want to be part of something because they want to belong, because they want to see positive change in the world. And so I think really, this is an honor to do the work that we do, because we are facilitating the ways in which change happens in the world. And so when we really think of ourselves as simply a vessel through which change happens, it just becomes a fun thing. It becomes a calling, it becomes a mission it becomes it's not about the money. It's not about the money. It's about the relationships, it's about putting the work at the center of the conversation because we all are trying to partner towards some positive change.
I adore you, Maria. You're so great. And I just love
it. Okay, so as we start to wind down, we want to get your one good thing we ask all of our guests, what's a piece of advice, maybe a hack or a mantra, that really means something to you that helps you out?
One thing that I will say is making a mistake will not kill you. Right and I think so often we're held back by perfectionism. People make mistakes, right? And you're gonna screw up 100% You're gonna say Oh, I screwed up right I screwed up asks I screwed up. Letters, I've sent out emails with typos, right? We all screw up, but the forward motion is the thing. And, and learning from your mistakes is the thing. Just Campbell actually said this to me and I love it because oh, it messaged us, do it message see? Right? It's just gonna be messy. But just do it like the doing is the more important thing. I think about I think it was Reed Hoffman, who once said, If you're not embarrassed by the first version of what you had you waited too long to ship. Your first version is always going to be embarrassing, but you have to ship.
Wonderful. That's okay. There's just so much to take here. Ria, we want to connect people to all the wonderful ways that you show up on the online universe and beyond. So point as to how people can connect with you. Were you on social? And about your work? Yeah.
And how can you get your book? Yeah, so
the book is slated to come out at the end of March. So the best way to learn about that is be on my newsletter. So I will do you know, special goodies for people on the newsletter, special, free chapters, perhaps even an invitation to the book launch party at the end of March in New York City. But tempat real Wang, r h ea wong.com. I'm actually launching my fundraising accelerator mid February. So if you're interested, check that out. And then LinkedIn is my most active platform. So link up with me there.
I feel like this time has flown by I love you more than I love the pink glasses you're wearing right now. And I just really appreciate the way that you show up so humbly. And your metaphors are the best we've had on the podcast since we've launched 200 And something episodes Bravo.
This has been such a blast. Thanks for being here today. Rhea.
Thanks for having me. John. Becky, this is so fun. Thanks for everything you're doing.
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