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97. Perfectionism is a Trauma Response | Otter.ai

97. Perfectionism is a Trauma Response

Amy Hoyt24min

Amy Hoyt

00:00

Hi, Amy here. Are you feeling stuck or overwhelmed by things that pop up in your daily life. And perhaps these are because of past traumas or toxic stress? Have you tried traditional therapy and found that it wasn't enough? I know that was the case for me. That's why we developed the whole health lab. Mini trauma has put together a program that combines the latest research with proven methods to help you recover from trauma and move forward from these daily stressors and triggers. We use somatic therapy EMDR, cognitive behavioral therapy and internal family systems therapy. We use nervous system regulation, and many other tools so that we can combine the best methods that are identified in the research to help you recover without being completely overwhelmed. So you can work on trauma on your own pace, your own time. And still with the mentorship and support of a highly trained certified staff. That's us. No more waiting for appointments or sitting in traffic driving to see a therapist with our online program, the whole help lab. You can access it from anywhere, anytime, even on an app, visit mending trauma.com backslash whole health lab and learn more. Get your questions answered. We've got a Frequently Asked Questions section and sign up so that you can have this life changing program in your world today. Don't let your past hold you back any longer. Take control of your future and we can't wait to see you in the whole health lab. Welcome to the universe is your therapist. We are your hosts, Dr. Amy Hoyt and Lena Hoyt. We are sisters. Take a seat and let's dive into this week's episode.

Amy Hoyt

01:54

Welcome back to another episode today we are talking about how to overcome perfectionism. And this is a topic near and dear to my heart. I struggle quite a bit with perfectionism. And it has been, I would say the driving force of my life for far too long. And I've been working on it pretty steadily for the last few years. So I'm excited to dive in.

Leina Hoyt, MFT, MA

02:18

Great, Amy, thanks for introducing that topic. What I've noticed over the years is one of the insidious ways that trauma impacts us is in the relentless drive for perfection. And some of you may be thinking, Well, I'm not a perfectionist. And that may be true. But the flip side of being a perfectionist may look like this, I decided to make a change. And the process of making the change and making mistakes or errors along the way of making the change is so distressing to me that I give it up. And I'm not giving it up from my wise mind. I'm giving it up from my limbic brain, which is saying that I'm not going to survive. If I don't do this perfectly.

Amy Hoyt

03:05

What is the distressing symptom look like when you're trying to make a change?

Leina Hoyt, MFT, MA

03:10

It involves how your manager part, we've talked about parts in our other podcasts, it involves how the manager part gets busy and gets working in our brain when there's any attempted change.

Amy Hoyt

03:25

And what does that look like in real life?

Leina Hoyt, MFT, MA

03:28

It looks like the manager part saying you're not doing enough. You should be changing faster.

Amy Hoyt

03:34

Okay, so you're trying to lose weight, you're weighing yourself you're you're eating healthy, or maybe it's your cholesterol. I mean, you're trying to get healthier, but you don't see the measuring that you're looking for move fast enough. So then you give it up.

Leina Hoyt, MFT, MA

03:48

Yes. And perfectionism is oftentimes about very short time periods. It's the rigid thinking about what has to be accomplished within a certain amount of time, because there's no flexibility in it. And it becomes very black and white or all or nothing. And so the manager part gets busy in there and says, Well, if you're not accomplishing it within these two weeks, then you might as well give up.

Amy Hoyt

04:16

Okay, so that coincides with another symptom we've talked about between the two of us of trauma, which is over functioning, and under functioning. And I feel like perfectionism goes hand in hand with this because what you're talking about is a radical change. So that would be a lot of over functioning, right? So very rigid thinking radical change, must do it perfect. Then you make a mistake, or you get distressed and all of a sudden you throw in the towel, and that would be the under functioning. I'm not good enough. I can't do this. I can't get out of bed or I can't eat healthy or whatever it is you're working on.

Leina Hoyt, MFT, MA

04:55

Exactly. And and in addition to that, what it is is that My lack of perfection is so distressing to me that I am going to give up. That's the thing that I think most of us don't realize is that when we have a goal to make changes, if we have a part of our brain that's demanding that we do it a certain way, within a certain timeframe, when that part of our brain gets activated, then what's happening is your limbic brain is actually seeing this as a threat to your survival if you don't do it in exactly this way in exactly this time. And it's not accurate.

Amy Hoyt

05:35

So when I'm aware of is, when I quit something, it's usually not because I've identified that I feel distressed that doesn't even enter my mind. Often I'll think I messed up, or it's, it's so hard. This is too hard. I can't do this.

Leina Hoyt, MFT, MA

05:52

And here's my question to you is it hard, because of your thoughts about how you're performing, in addition to the difficulty of change,

Amy Hoyt

06:02

it depends, sometimes it's hard because it requires vulnerability, which I am very resistant to, although getting better. We're here doing a podcast. But sometimes if it's something not about being vulnerable, it is about probably my thoughts,

Leina Hoyt, MFT, MA

06:21

that's typically true, or we're just not very aware of it. And so change is hard, the brain is actually designed to resist change. What happens with the brain is that when we have created a habit, or an autonomic response, or automatic response, or behavior, the brain sees that as a shortcut, it's a neural pathway that is already connected, and then it gets myelinated and fat, so it gets surrounded in fat, so that nothing can disrupt that shortcut, which is awesome. When we're talking about breathing, or sweat glands or a heartbeat. That is fantastic. We don't want those disrupted. But when we're talking about making changes, that will enhance our lives, and the brain still perceives that that change is as dangerous as messing with the heart rate that is really difficult to overcome.

Amy Hoyt

07:15

That's so interesting. I love that because it really helps take some of the shame out of not being able to change quickly.

Leina Hoyt, MFT, MA

07:23

And that's why I think timing is so important, because when that manager part is insisting that it'd be done this way. In this time, what happens is we lose the opportunity for growth a lot of times, so instead of making some change, we actually can throw in the towel and give up. Because the change is not as rapid or as concrete as we'd like it.

Amy Hoyt

07:51

That's interesting. So how do we work around this biological imperative of this, this brain feeling so threatened? How do we work around that?

Leina Hoyt, MFT, MA

08:02

I think we use self compassion. And when we use self compassion, the goal is to understand that we're human, and that we are working within the realm of our human physiology. One way that I like to explain this to clients is to compare it to climbing Mount Everest, the climb climbing Mount Everest, I'm not a climber, but I've read a lot about it. And my understanding is that climbing Mount Everest is done in stages, and that these stages are on purpose. So what typically happens is you start at a base camp, and that's already a high elevation, you make sure you have everything ready for your climb, and you're ready to start the ascent onto the mountain itself. When you do that, what you do is you are aiming for the first base camp that's actually on the mountain. That's your aim. You're not aiming for the top right now, in fact, to aim for the top would kill you literally kill you because your body can't acclimate to the thinner air and the atmosphere unless it is doing it in stages. So I talked to people about how is so many clients Mount Everest and they get to Basecamp. One that's awesome. What they do at Basecamp. One is they rest and they eat and they check their equipment, but the most important thing they do is they allow time for the lungs to acclimate to the thinner air. That is the most important thing in doing this climb in stages. All right, so we're at Basecamp one, and we decide we're going to proceed forward, I'm pretending that I'm climbing Mount Everest, which I will never do. I proceed forward to base camp two, and I get to Basecamp two, and I then rest and eat and allow time for my lungs to acclimate and my climbing group moves forward. And as we're going as we're ascending higher, my lungs cannot tolerate the thinner air and this is a physiological barrier. This is not an issue of will or commitment. If my lungs are not accommodating the thinner air, then I must go back to base camp to and allow for more time for my lungs to acclimate. Does anyone think this is a failure? I hope not. It's not a failure in my perception, because what it is, is it's an adjustment in timing of when you reach your goal. It's not a failure to reach your goal. It's an adjustment in timing. And I think that's really important. So it sounds

Amy Hoyt

10:33

to me that what the brain needs is a script of progress over perfection. Yes, that would be very, very helpful. Because when, you know if we're taking this example of climbing Mount Everest, and we're putting it on any other issue we're working on in life, typically, when we have to go down to a base camp, we throw in the towel, it says if we went all you know, that's it, I can't do this. Instead of making adjustments, we are done. Those of us who struggle with perfectionism.

Leina Hoyt, MFT, MA

11:08

Yep. And this is a very understandable human condition, but is extremely unhelpful and unproductive. And it does not allow for us to grow in ways that will enhance our life.

Amy Hoyt

11:21

Okay, so what are some of these steps we can do to be more compassionate while we're trying to change? I know that one of the things I do when I'm trying to set a goal and change is that, you know, I'll set this really big goal. And so do I immediately, do I check in with someone and say, Lena, I've decided I'm gonna get another PhD, and I'm gonna do it in a year, do we check in with someone? Do we have an accountability partner that can help us remember that we don't need to go faster than we're able,

Leina Hoyt, MFT, MA

11:56

I think the only benefit in this type of process of having an accountability partner is to have somebody who can help us be compassionate with ourselves and who can support accurate steps of change.

Amy Hoyt

12:11

Okay, so in terms of traditional accountability partner, it would be how did you do today? Did you meet your goal? But this would be someone who is are you being kind to yourself? Are you being curious about why something was hard or great job if you did a great job that day, according to yourself, so it lets this person would let you kind of lead in the sense of assessing but also be super compassionate and help model compassionate

Leina Hoyt, MFT, MA

12:39

Exactly. And because this has never been suggested, in the context of accountability partners, we now have two people, ourselves and our accountability partner who are pushing us to change as soon as we perceive we are being pushed to change, including even the word should, you should wake up earlier and exercise. As soon as that is said, the brain puts up its natural resistance, and the ability to make change is actually inhibited.

Amy Hoyt

13:14

So I've been in a lot of accountability groups, and I have actually never experienced someone shutting me, I think there is a sense, I mean, I'm sure it happens. But I think there is a sense with accountability partners, that at least the ones I've been involved in that we are on our own journey, and that we are using each other to check in so that we have a check in there's a lot of research that's actually been done on accountability and how effective it is for keeping us on a path that we have wanted to be on

Leina Hoyt, MFT, MA

13:49

that makes a lot of sense to me, the way you're describing, you've experienced accountability partners is really lovely. And one thing to keep in mind is that if you want support on a goal that you have determined, we want to be aware enough of ourselves and how our brain works to request that our partner approach it this way. And so what my brain does when something is insisted when somebody insists that I do something different or a better way, my brain becomes so resistant, and so it does the exact opposite of what the speaker is intending. And when I have worked with a personal trainer or in situations like that, I have had to explain to people that if they become very rigid and hard nosed about it, I will stop. And I think that that's important for me to realize so that I can educate the people that are trying to help me that makes a lot of sense because you're setting the tone and the expectation. Okay, so let's let's go to where self compassion comes in specifically How can we what are some skills to be self compassionate here is a way to be self compassionate in the midst of change, what I think is really valuable and is often time missed is to make a specific goal that's measurable and concrete. And in order to have that goal make sense, you actually have to assess where you are right this second in that behavior. So if my goal is to quit swearing, within two weeks, in order for me to be able to assess my progress on a daily basis, I have to have an accurate evaluation of how frequently I'm swearing now, because that is the only way we can acknowledge change is if we know what we're moving from. And what we're moving to one thing

Amy Hoyt

15:50

that keeps coming to my mind is that there is an infinite ability of self denial. So how do you get an accurate assessment of where you're at when you're dealing with an emotional change something that's not quantifiable? That's a

Leina Hoyt, MFT, MA

16:05

really good question. I believe that if we have people who have treated us kindly if we can go to those people who know us and seek feedback from them, sometimes I've done that and said, This is the way that I respond best to feedback. If you catch it like this, they don't have to do it that way. But if somebody knows that you're on a journey to better yourself, and that you are seeking information so that you can gauge your progress, the hope is, is that they can be kind and how they give you feedback, I've noticed that you swear a lot. And so then I would want to be more cognizant of how often I am swearing and keep track of that before I start my journey to change. Because it gives me a starting point. That's clear.

Amy Hoyt

16:53

Yes. And I was talking about something that's not quantifiable a trait. That's not quantifiable. So how would you quantify it? Like if I went to you and said, I'm really I really want to stop or really improve perfectionism? It's hard. When I'm, what I'm pointing to is the self can be very delusional. And so let's say I think I have a slight problem with it. But perhaps my prompt, perhaps my problem is a lot larger, and I don't realize it, how do we as humans with our ability to self delude? How do we really get an accurate assessment of things we're trying to work on?

Leina Hoyt, MFT, MA

17:33

If we can't measure it? If it's not measurable? I'm not sure that that needs to be a requirement. And I'm not ignoring the focus of your question that goes back to perfectionism. I think I'm not sure. Well, I

Amy Hoyt

17:48

was I was going off of you saying you can't you have to measure before you start. So you know where you were, and where you go?

Leina Hoyt, MFT, MA

17:56

Yes. But if you need to know exactly what you're doing, and how many times and, and when, and where before you start, that will get in the way of us starting.

Amy Hoyt

18:08

Okay. So perhaps the swearing example, maybe we don't need to know that we swear 20 times a day. Do you know what I mean? Yes, I'm just trying to because my brain is going to most of my changes at this point, are very internal. And very, I know they're not emotions, but they're emotionally based, mentally based.

Leina Hoyt, MFT, MA

18:28

What I believe is that all change has to be measured with behavior. That's the only way to measure it accurately. Oh, that's

Amy Hoyt

18:36

very helpful. So if I say I want to work on my perfectionism, I have to determine how is that manifesting in my behavior? Exactly. That is so helpful. Yes, you bet. Okay, let's

Leina Hoyt, MFT, MA

18:48

give our listeners some skill sets. Absolutely. We want to help you identify measurable goals so that you know what it is that you're trying to do. And you know, the frequency. One thing that I have talked a lot about with my clients is that the human brain is terrible, absolutely terrible at noticing progress. And so I've come up with three steps that can help people notice progress. The first one is, is that we want to notice if there's a reduction in frequency of the behavior we do not desire. So I'll take the example of a parent with a three year old who tantrums we are looking for the tantrum mean to be from five times a day to four times a day within a week. And we're also looking for the second piece, which is a reduction in intensity. So are the tantrums a little shorter? Are they a little less intense? And the third thing we are looking for is faster recovery from the undesired behavior. So we have a tantruming child Are they able to come back into the window of tolerance more quickly. And what I've encountered over the years is that a parent will come in, and they're really concerned for their child, maybe a teenager, and the communication is rather broken is quite muddy. And so we embark on a process of change, and things go well, but then something happens. And then the parent and the child come back in, and the parent says, Nothing has changed. And that is not accurate. So instead of saying to the parent, that's not accurate. I say, well, let's evaluate it this way. And we go through this three step process.

Amy Hoyt

20:38

Let's look at that three step process, which I really like. Let's look at it with something like perfectionism. So I noticed my perfectionism is creating a behavior of intolerance for mistakes. And so that might look like feeling very frustrated, it's a lot of internal upset, how can we give our listeners who are working on something less,

Leina Hoyt, MFT, MA

21:06

let's say, then that I am working on self compassion, which is a very internal process, what I'd want to do is, I'd want to determine what my goal is in a concrete way. So I would think to myself, I want to be more self compassionate within the next two weeks, I would think to myself, I want to be more self compassionate within the next two weeks. And because it is an internal process, this is a little bit harder to measure. But it is measurable. In order to measure it, though, we have to have self compassion, clear thinking and flexible thinking. So I decide I'm going to be more self compassionate. What I want to first do is notice when I'm not self compassionate, when I noticed that, then I want to make a decision about how I'm going to take that particular type of incident and change my internal response to it. Yeah,

Amy Hoyt

22:01

I mean, I know that all of our internal is also coming out externally. But I feel like sometimes with self judgment, and perfectionism, and let's give our listeners a way to go through this process, when it's not as obvious

Leina Hoyt, MFT, MA

22:17

when I determine what my change would look like, then I can measure my change. Another thing that I think is really important to talk about Amy in this process is that perfectionism is about all or nothing black and white, rigid thinking, short timing, that kind of thing. And what many of us don't realize is that any improvement, any improvement at all counts. And so if I want to lose 10 pounds, and so I increase my vegetable consumption and reduce my sugar consumption, if I lose one pound, that is progress, it does not have to mean that I have to make my body, which you really can't make your body do this. It doesn't mean I have to make my body respond the way I want it to in order for me to feel satisfied with progress. And perfectionism will get in the way of satisfaction with progress. So the goal is to start paying more attention to our wins. One of the examples I have is that you would if you're trying to cut down on your swearing, you would at the end of the day, notice all the times you wanted to swear but you did not okay.

Amy Hoyt

23:23

And so for self compassion, it would be something like when I didn't do something the way I thought I would or should I was able to be curious instead of judgmental to myself.

Leina Hoyt, MFT, MA

23:36

So this is a long journey. And it's a journey worth doing. Because our most important relationship is with ourselves. Because if we can't figure out how to enjoy and appreciate our own selves and our humaneness, then we have a really hard time connecting with others. And connection is something that's been shown over and over again, is the thing that brings the highest life satisfaction

Amy Hoyt

24:04

you so much and we'll see you next week. Thank you for listening to the universe's your therapist this week. If you have any questions or looking for more information, you can find us at mending trauma on Instagram, as well as mending trauma.com Our website and if you're enjoying our content, we'd love it if you could rate review and subscribe to the show. We'll see you all next week.

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