Okay, so what I'm hearing then, is that you read Allison's paper, oh, this, let me just set this up. This is our defining empathy project, go to defining empathy.com. It's an ongoing project to define the term empathy. And you can check it out there. And we're using the empathy circle practice as a, as a as a process for doing that. Today, Shannon is going to be sharing her definition of empathy. And starting off, I'm going to be just reflecting what I heard. And you already we're starting to talk about the work that Allison did a paper on empathy and cognition or rationality or reason, and saying that, what were you saying about it? That it? Oh, that intuition was a big part of that you feel intuition isn't really is part of empathy and hasn't been? well covered?
Yeah, I think that's a good description. This is I think this is kind of more my current thinking on it. And rather than something that I've kind of been thinking about from the beginning, such as when I first started with my dissertation and everything. But it's yeah, it's been interesting to read some of the social psychology literature, because it's different than the clinical psych literature. And I guess my starting point was more on therapists and training, because at the time, I was a therapist and training. And so what are the kind of qualities of therapists and training that impact their capacity to empathize? And so yeah, that's that was my starting point.
Yeah. So your starting point was coming from the clinical psychology point of view, like what will help therapists in their, with their therapy, and you've been starting to expand from there into the social sciences, the social sciences, and, and some other views there? And you're sort of expanding your your starting point about the definition?
Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I think in kind of considering what enables someone to empathize versus not empathize. I started with a body of literature called relational psychoanalysis. And so there are writers within that field that really emphasize the importance of a therapist boundaries in the in the therapeutic process. And like one author, Dr. Darlene Ehrenburg, talks about the fact that therapy can't be effective, and two people can't truly be intimate or close to one another, or even have a good enough working relationship for a patient to notice change, unless the therapist themselves have has a strong sense of kind of where they end and where the patient begins. They they have to have a sense of that she's caused the intimate edge between them and the patient in order to be able to affect change in the in the patient. And then there's another relational psychoanalyst, Dr. beachler, who talks about an empathic process. And that's very close to what I ended up testing, it's almost identical. And so I took a table and kind of laid out her whole theory and found empirical support for that theory and kind of filled it out. But she talks about an empathic process that's marked by, from what I can gather, because she writes theory. It's mostly marked by a capacity to feel into what someone else is saying, which I equated to an emotional resonance or a self oriented way of being with somebody else, you feel into the emotion that they're feeling. So that could be emotional contagion, personal distress, empathy, but it's a very self oriented kind of reactivity. Like you're literally feeling the other person's feelings as if they were they're your own.
And when I can get to see if I have this so your your your work is really based on different academic writers you're quoting, basing, you're just mentioning some of the the academics that you're talking that you've you're basing your work on. And the self other differentiation are sort of the boundaries itself and other was like an important piece to it. And this and there's also this sort of process of sensing into the other person using emotional contagion and sort of other processes and so It's this process of sensing into, I don't know, if you use the word sensing into but into the other into the other person in. And they sort of describe that process. And you're sort of building on that.
Exactly. But that's just the first stage, according to beachler. So the first stage is this feeling into I think you could also say sensing into, and it captures this same sort of emotional contagion, or emotional resonance is what I called it. And she posits that the second stage of this empathic process that goes on longer than one moment, right, it's like a process that unfolds over time rather than one state or one trait. The first stage is feeling into the second stage is feeling out of, and she describes this stage of feeling out of as bringing to mind, not only when you might have gone through the same thing that the other person is describing, because that would be the emotional resonance phase, the first phase, but in the second phase, you're also recalling how you recovered from that emotional state. And you're working to regain your balance within that moment. And the whole idea is that the patient in seeing you regain your balance is also gains the strength to regain their balance in the moment.
Okay, so in this process, there's, it's actually worth they use the term feeling into your feeling into the experience of the other. But there's a moment where you sort of check back with yourself since feeling to yourself and sort of making associations like when you had that experience, or in those others or something about it sounds like that sense of being with the other person, and then going back into yourself that that's sort of helping maybe with the boundary? Issue, topic?
Yes, exactly. That's exactly what it is. It's a form of, it's like a boundary regulation that's happening throughout the empathic process. So one has to lose and regain their boundaries, like continuously over time, in order to empathize. If what so that's that, pretty much, I guess, yeah.
So there's this, there's this back and forth part, you're saying you're feeling into the other person that you're checking in with yourself, then going back to the, to the other person, and it's something that happens sort of over time, it's a process on process, it's, yeah, develops over time.
I think you could call it a number of things, the two step process, you could call it, like you use the term sensing into, you could say sensing into and sensing out of, you can say feeling into feeling out of. I called it resonating and regulating. But the idea is that there's like a rhythm to it, and there's a balance to it. And what I became curious about is how does this go wrong? Then? If that's empathy, then how does it go wrong? And yeah, so that's kind of what I started investigating. Yeah.
Okay. So in that process of feeling into and then feeling out of, and feeling back into yourself and to the back and forth, you were getting to the point where you were looking at where does that process break down? Or where does it go wrong? And that's where your exploration was.
Right? Yeah. And so is there a deficit with regard to somebody's ability to, to really sense into or feel into another person's experience? Are they to maybe there's some fear or shame blocking that? Or is the deficit in terms of their ability to regulate their state? Can they not? Can they are they really good at resonating, but they can't really trust themselves to be able to regulate or they time and time again, and kind of overly emotional in the empathic process and therefore kind of take the focus away from the other person.
So you're looking at sort of what blocks that that that process and one could be shame or fear, or they have in the process, maybe withdrawing, feeling out of feeling back into themselves? And yeah, so looking at the, I think there's a variety of different things that can can block that that flow.
Right? Exactly. Um, and it. As I continued to research, I came with what I knew. And attachment theory is very near and dear to my heart. And so I know that attachment security, like the empathic process I had been reading about, is is also about cognitive flexibility and interest, psychic flexibility, this ability, this capacity to go out and explore your environment, but feel safe enough that you're always going to be able to come back to a sense of secure security. So there's a attachment security is we get it from our early attachment relationships, but later on, it becomes a cognitive, it kind of moves to the level of representation in our mind, and it becomes a cognitive ability that were more able to be secure in our environments and with significant others thereafter. So it felt like a good next step to be like, Oh, well, let's look at IT security has an impact on a person's comfort doing this with another person. Yeah. So
So you're looking at the the listener in this case that made the therapist like, how secure are they in themselves, and you're connecting that sort of how that security gets developed by sort of attachment theory, the the work there of, you know, early childhood attachment, did you have that grounding, that sense of safety that you could go out and explore come back, if you have a sense is secure attachment safety, and then how that goes to the present. And in the present, that sounds like you're seeing that has sort of a cognitive aspect to it, that it gets sort of cut, maybe higher order, other cognitive layers sort of get put on that where you then have sort of a cognitive as a sense of secure safety within sort of a cognitive space to be able to reach out and, and then come back.
Yeah, what Mary main talked about it and called it, Mary main was one of the major researchers of adult attachment. So she looked at adults, and she looked at their attachment patterns. Normally, before her, a lot of people focused on children's attachment, she was looking at adults. And she found that, that there's a really strong relationship between somebody's attachment when they were younger, if they were secure, to their ability to have this cognitive flexibility, what later became known as mentalization. So we keep using the word mentalization, which is just an awareness of self and other and relationship. So but it's, it's an incredibly important skill that sort of kind of makes or break somebody's ability to have relationships in adulthood.
So the, her her work was actually showing that when children had good attachment, that in adulthood, they they also had good capacity, you know, that it's sort of a sense of safety. You're and that that it's complicated. It is the so it was see the the mentalization, then is that it's sort of connected, if you have good security, yours mentalization process is, I guess, better or more grounded, you feel safer within that,
yeah, you hit the nail on the head, it is very complicated. But it is really, I think, very beautiful to that she said, This finding because she was a linguist and came into this field of child development. And kind of, that's where her passion was. And she was just in the right place to see that wait a minute, like, adults might not have the same behavior patterns. But if I administer this interview with them, they show this ability to be aware of themselves aware of other and aware of relationships, like no other, you know, like insecure people don't tend to be able to do. And so it was like a groundbreaking finding that she uncovered. Which, which, I mean, others have found Yeah, there is a strong connection between security and empathy. And this kind of explains why if people that are secure, are able to have that flexibility and that awareness then. Then it makes sense that they'd also be empathic.
So there's a beauty to that to see that if you I have good childhood attachment that you're going to have good mentalizing be able to have good self other distinction. And she was able to make that connection. And I guess that maybe that adds some kind of importance to having childhood good childhood attachment that this is really important for future well being an empathic capacity as you get older.
Yes, yeah, absolutely. Um, so without getting too much into, like attachment, insecurity, there's forms of insecurity that can crop up either in childhood and met and then kind of manifest in adulthood later on that, that either consist of having poor boundaries, or consists of having like, overly rigid boundaries. And so you could take attachment and kind of map it on to blocks to empathy, and and also use secure attachment as a way to explain, you know, why someone's may be so good at empathizing.
Okay, so this model explains why people may be good or bad at empathizing, because it kind of explains the background for that if they had a good attachment, they're going to be able to not be overly lost or withdraw, they're going to have this sort of balanced back and forth. Self other being able to move in and out. And yes, that's, that's helpful for looking at how you are in what will maybe help you or something like that maybe sounds like there's a prank, you're looking at a server practical aspect of that.
Yeah, I think that that's true, that therapists when they start out, were to take an adult attachment interview and see what their attachment is, they know where their vulnerabilities lie. It's like, okay, I have some insecurities with regard to attachment, that means may run into these types of blocks when I'm trying to empathize, like, what can I do in my training to work specifically on that vulnerability, so it doesn't get in the way when I'm trying to work with someone you know.
So being able to look at what your attachment was, like, as a, as a child that can help you support you, as a therapist to say, Oh, where are the areas that I might need to work on? What are the processes that kind of strengthen my empathic capacities, and maybe do address blocks that may come up?
Yeah. And then there's emerging work on like polyvagal theory, which talks about one person's ability to co regulate another person. And I think that also maps onto this idea. This this idea of CO regulation, that's become a hot topic in the literature, that through this two step process, you you don't you not only co regulate your own experience, but you're also you're not only regulating your own experience, but you're also co regulating the other person's at the same time. So you kind of become a unit through them. So if
you're well grounded, as a therapist, you have a sense of groundedness self other distinction that creates a quality maybe of calmness that helps regulate the other person to your regulate your don't have big emotional swings. And your your have that groundedness. And that all that sense, also helps ground the other person and helps them sort of regulate their emotions, motions and fumes, a co regulation. Yeah.
Thanks for listening. I feel very heard. Yeah, I think that covers a lot of, of what I've been thinking about, of the ideas that I have,
and your definition of empathy, then what how would you sort of put that in a synopsis?
Well, I mean, I guess that would be the synopsis is that it's more of a process definition that evolves over time. And this idea of the dual process, model, emotion and cognition, does play into it. There's hints of emotion for example. It's emotional empathy to feel into somebody else's experience. And that I think gets the feeling out of park could be mapped on to a more cognitive type of empathy. But I feel like there's some super ordinate fat ways of talking about it, which are more like the mentalization factors and the CO regulation that's happening, and maybe even intuition, kind of working on this super ordinate level above that, that kind of two step evolving process that's going on all the time.
So the your definition of empathy is what we're describing right now, there's this sort of two step sensing into the other person's sensing back into yourself and, and sort of a back and forth, and that there are these things that can block that process. You're kind of explaining how some of those blocks work. And yeah, I think that's, is there more around that that I miss?
Not much. I mean, it's my, my evolving ideas really integrative? I mean, I see gonna utility in so many different things. And I'm kind of coming from the standpoint of like, what is the most kind of ingrained qualities that a person comes with for talking about their primary attachment relationships, that's pretty ingrained? And so how does that affect, you know, all these different capacities, whether it be emotional empathy, cognitive empathy, self empathy, other empathy, I just feel that it's all relevant, and kind of folded into this ongoing process?
Well, I see you have sort of this model, kind of this sort of a dynamic that's happening. And you're sort of like stepping outside and kind of looking at the model and looking at the different layers of White can kind of fit into this into this model. And, yeah, and that those are all the dynamics. And it seems like a big part is like what maybe as a teacher, you're needing to be able to see what people are bringing to the, into the process, you really want to look at that that process is well, like, what what is the the qualities that therapists or students are sort of bringing into the, into the night this into this dynamic?
Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think there's ways in which if looking at empathy, this way, someone could be really strong and one thing related to this empathic process, and yet, they could be like the least empathic person you've ever met. So I like that it can be strength based, and you can say, Wow, you've mastered cognitive empathy, but nobody can quite feel that you're in the room with them. So, you know, maybe not saying it that way. But you know, finding a way in through a person's strength, because I feel like everyone has some capacity to be empathic, but it might be off balance in one way or the other.
So is this mildly, you can point out one aspect that someone is really good at, like, maybe they're sensing into really strong you're able to sense into, but they're not with pulling back into their own sense of self, or they're just very much in their own sense of self and not really sensing into where the other person is. And you can sort of really name that and say, I need maybe bit need, could use more work on on this sense of withdrawing. And the cognitive understanding the cognitive empathy that you're seeing is the sense of sort of withdrawing and sort of connecting with your own your own experiences that sort of relate to what it is that you're sensing, that's the cognitive aspects.
Well, the step where I mean, yes, you're right, the step where you're not feeling into what you're having to feel out of, you're having to step back exactly what you said, step back, withdraw a little more into yourself and you're actually having to use theory of mind which is perspective taking. In part, to kind of say to yourself, Well, when I felt this type of a thing, you know, I counteracted my feeling of sadness with curiosity. So I'm going to become curious and active in this moment and that will help bring me back and enable me to gain regain my balance. And yeah, yeah,
so when when you're sensing into the or feeling into to use the word you're putting in that sensing me that's the word I love the feeling word I like that to use that too. Is a that you sense or feel something? And then you're checking. I felt I felt that too. And how did I deal with that? Oh, I, I just brought curiosity to that. And then you're sort of bringing that feeling of insight of curiosity to, to the, to your listening or being with the other or feeling into the other person.
Yeah. And that feeling into, I think it creates a real strong connection with another person. And so the patient or the person that you're empathizing with will be privy to the fact that you just, you suddenly counterbalanced your grief or sadness with curiosity, and you seem to switch your mental state, so they might not be able to put in words what they noticed, but they'll be able to know, how did she do that? Or? Wow, okay, so now she's curious about my state. And, oh, I guess that's possible, you know, it's not going to kill me to feel that grief, I can also become curious about it. curiosities like a hugely helpful and important thing to bring as a therapist.
So when you're listening, a person goes into deep grief, grief, that you sort of check. How did I deal with that grief? Do is grief. And you remember, I dealt with curiosity. And it's just that sort of emotional awareness. You're not even saying, Hey, I dealt with this with with curiosity is just that feeling your brain that feeling into that. And then the other person is seeing that you're sort of self regulated. In his third, you're not like falling apart, that there's something you did, and they they get a subtle sense of curiosity, they might not even be able to name it, but they, they sense there's something there. And that kind of helps them with. So dealing with it,
right? Like, sort of like, Oh, I thought we were both just in a hole together. And then all of a sudden, you know, my therapist is all of a sudden becoming very curious about me again, and she seems so much even more engaged, you know, than before in me, and I think that's very, very meaningful to me. Yeah, so
so you're just reiterating that they they're really seeing and sensing that a therapist was able to work through this, and that has real meaning. They're not like stuck in a hole. It's like, both of us in this hole. We're just floundering. It's like, oh, you're not in the hole. I see. You're not in the hole. There's a way out or, or in that. Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. And I mean, like, I think humor can be like used in that same way. But I think you have to be a little bit more careful with humor, because it can also be just it stands to its, it can be dismissive more often than curiosity. Really can't. You can't that that can't really be bad. I don't think but humor can come off as dismissive if it isn't used judiciously. I feel. So
yeah, there's different ways of bringing of addressing those issues that come up be curiosity, one, maybe humor to but that can be a bit more risky, that it comes off? Well, yeah. Yeah. If you have more just fine is, is how would you map this onto the empathy circle?
I know I've been wondering about that myself. Well, the empathy circle has really expanded my thinking, I guess about this is what I'll say. I mean, I think there is a little bit more complex, because it's not just one person's background and capacity for therapeutic empathy, but it's two people in mutual empathy, and their backgrounds that are coming, kind of, to bear on the interaction. So yeah, so that's what I'll say, start.
So there's a layer another layer of complexity to it that I imagine that is the listener, you could be doing all the things that the therapist is doing, you know, you're feeling grief, and then you feel that curiosity. And so that dynamic is happening, as well as there's another layer of kind of shifting turns. That's more more complicated to explain or,
yeah. I mean, I think you're right that all that you you could apply this model to any listener and then in the empathy circle there There's like an I think, I think the empathy circle has made me kind of realize more that there's a development through time of a kind of a relationship. And so how do you? How do you factor that into your thinking about empathy, that's kind of like another dimension, not just this two step processes going on, but it's kind of like building upon itself. And so you might have someone that's actually good at that process, but that they start to get they start to have trouble with the relationship. Kind of taking off the ground or kind of building over time.
It's the in that two step process. Do you mean with the client therapist, you meeting with the empathy circle? Or?
Well, I think that two step process could be applied either place? Yeah, I think it could be applied in either place. I don't see why not, unless you do. But
yeah, it seems to me, it's sort of a subset of the empathy circle is that we're kind of switching the roles that, then there's sort of like an official listener, like a therapist is like an official listener.
I think that the empathy circle, there's a, there's a listener who needs to be act, who is going to be actively listening for given point, you know, a certain duration three to five minutes. And that's different from a therapist who is not just actively listening, but doing other things at the same time. And so the empathy circle more than therapy is a chance to either really feel into what somebody's saying, or to stay kind of at the surface. Because I think there's ways of repeating back what somebody's saying, or actively listening, that show that you're listening on a deep level to like, the emotion and the effect. And there's ways of listening to someone which demonstrate that you're really, and I think a lot of this is nonverbal, but there's ways to actively listen that demonstrate that you're really just staying very, very much at the level of the words, just the words type thing.
So you're seeing different levels of listening kind of a superficial, just the word level. And another way you can really see that the person is feeling into and sensing the deeper emotions or feelings that the person has. So it can be either way. And it sounds like you're seeing that it's different from the therapy client therapist, if you have more time. And it's maybe ideas to go deeper.
I don't see it as different I just see that as a way that somebody's ability to empathize manifests or doesn't manifest, but within that context, rather than the therapy context. Yeah.
Okay, so let me see the Yeah, so they can manifest in both the client therapist as well as the empathy circle, this kind of the sense, I'm getting.
I think there's, yeah, I think with the empathy circle there's, there's an interesting frame that's set up where it's set up so that it's supposed to be a completely reciprocal or equitable interaction. And yet you have people that have these different levels of active listening or feeling into. And so if everyone approaches it with this expectation of, I'm going to be mean to empathize and be empathized with. And this, if they approach it with an expectation that it's going to be a completely reciprocal thing, then all sorts of that could create all sorts of issues for them. Disappointments or, you know, dynamics, where, you know, they're not going to give as much, you know, maybe fears of giving too much. And so it creates, there's kind of this these relational conflicts or ruptures that can emerge through the process, which then allows I mean, people could use it in any sort of way, but I think it provides a chance to work on those Oh, this came up for me. I didn't feel quite listened to and, you know, it created this reaction in me. How did that happen? What expectations did I have? Was that fair for me to even bring those expectations. And so there's that, that added component I think.
Okay, there's what I'm hearing there is that then there's in the empathy circle, there's like, there's different components that that itself that structure brings. One of them being that it's supposed to be sort of fair, is it really fair because one person might be listening better than another, more deeply to another? Or questions of how much should I bring up, you know, how open and transfer open I shouldn't be in terms of sharing. So there's just like, all these different sort of dynamic extra dynamics is the tout process has to it?
Yeah, the mutuality brings, I don't know it does, it kind of brings another element into kind of this model of what it means to me. Because you have to be able to work with any ruptures that happen. That's another thing that got integrated into, to the the idea of that I had was like, does a person have the ability to work to contend with ruptures in the relationship or in the Alliance? Obviously, if they're more secure, they will. And so that kind of comes, comes with this whole idea of the empathic process is this ability to kind of cope, to feel into and to regulate oneself, becomes all the more important in the middle of a rupture. And so a rupture might look like a therapist disappointing a patient in therapy, but in the empathy circle, it might look like hurt feelings, or feelings of unfairness or feelings of not being heard. But can a person bounce back and stay? Engage participating? Or do they kind of withdraw or kind of collapse?
From another thing, even looking at is like a ruptures in like the client therapist relationship? Is there something that happens to the client that, oh, I'm not really being heard here, something happens, there's a rupture. And they're sort of withdrawing, and how do you sort of repair that process? You know, what's the process for? Maybe why it got? What caused it as well as why how you repair that. And the same thing can happen in the empathy circle that some people might feel some rupture? I will I'm not heard as much as everyone else, or they're not listening to me well, or just things that kind of disrupt that, that sort of connecting, adding that connecting flow, or that empathic flow? And then how, what causes that as well is, how is that repaired?
Right, and so, exactly, and so yeah.
I don't know, if I have too much more to add, I mean, I see the debrief as a chance to kind of address or repair ruptures. So there's that correlation. But if, of course, in therapy, the therapists role is a lot more to to kind of address and repair those ruptures in vivo. So in that way, it's much different from the empathy circle.
Oh, maybe we'll just open it up. Sure. Yeah, adding, so just so yeah, with the empathy circle, my sense is that given enough times, things will unravel. I mean, the ruptures get, if people sort of stick with it, yeah. That, you know, something will happen that some something will shift. And maybe that's where the intuition is, right? You sense something's not right. And then you kind of keep dialoguing in the getting the reflection, and then some kind of an intuition. And I guess that's me with the intuition and something new comes up like, Oh, I see. And then somehow this connection is made or something, but that's giving giving it enough time.
Yeah. Yeah. It seems like a big part of the empathy circle. And a lot of what it offers is that repetition and the learning through repetition, repetition, and we're and working through this Yeah. I think through intuition, we do things as a community to help each other out like we can sense when somebody may be, you know, something's happened for someone, something shifted for someone and I've been in groups where there's this sense that people have that, oh, this person's in trouble in emotional trouble. And and it's, I don't know, that's a kind of a beautiful thing to see that we all have that sixth sense, you know? And so it's kind of group has a way of repairing itself.
If it has that intention, yeah, it's, I've seen groups to where you want they kind of want the fall guy, you know, they want the, the, the person that's on the out is it's them, not me, you know, is that we're, I think
in mind if the guy if that person gets alienated, they actually think it might be better.
Yeah, it's like it's least it's them. It's not me. Or something. It's like, I mean, I just see that with, with groups, too. There's, there's a sense that, oh, we want everyone to feel connected and included. But then there's also other kind of groups like, oh, there's somebody who's kind of on the outs you can you kind of can feel that they sort of feel it. And
yeah, I've always been kind of a one on one type of person for that reason is groups do have a mind of their own in that way. So that's, that would be a question I would want to put back to you is like, how do you? That seems like a really challenging part of the empathy circles?
Well, it's, it's just that over time, everybody gets sort of heard. And it does seem to be equal out in terms of how much time people send tend to be sort of aware of that. I think it overcomes the Picard terms as the German word keeps coming to Xindian buck, which is a sacrifice, you know, the Sacra is can't even remember the English word. The scapegoat? Okay, yeah. So the scapegoat that in for me, it's because the, the scapegoat would get hurt, you can't, it's hard to exclude them, because somebody is going to have to listen to them when it's their turn. And they're going to have to take in whatever that person says. So it kind of includes them. So it's hard to have a scapegoat. You know, people might be in really mad at each other, the tension gets really bad, but then you just keep at it. It's like something kind of breaks through, you know, eventually that connects people over time.
So is what you're saying that there are these moments of pretty extreme scapegoating, where one person might be totally alienated. And everyone in the group for that moment, at least kind of agrees that yeah, that person probably should be alienated now, but that ventually that kind of mentality wears off, or
Yeah, there was a person in one of the groups that was really, he was almost like, he was pretty, quite bright, but he would be really antagonistic to people and just almost like, distort destroy groups, you know. And, and there was a time when, for example, you know, were some of the facilitators just, like, kind of really got upset, and they want to exclude him. And I'm not into excluding people, it's like, as long as they're doing the process, I'm fine. You know, they can do whatever they want. And within the process, he was like, really good listener, he stick stuck with the time he was always had the clock to make sure the time was right. The problem came in the introductions, when people were introducing themselves or was outside of that structure. He would like to have the video of it he called he was like, fuck you, you're and get Shut up, you know, in some in this really nasty, but, but I would always, I would always also in the circle, everything kind of worked itself out and he would get really mad at somebody and, and that person would just reflect back what they're saying. And, and it just kind of got equalized and worked out now. And I would actually be kind of tense like, oh my god, this person is coming in. And I was like, I was all nervous because the whole thing is going to blow up people won't come back because this guy I didn't want to exclude him either. And his whole thing was like being seen as a scapegoat for all these other groups that he'd been in. And so anyway, I did circles recordings with him or if we did an empathy circle one on one several of them he would attacked me on on Facebook book, you know, saying Oh, You're excluding me from the trainings you're, and just, you know, going on and on. And I say, whenever he had a complaint, I said, Let's have an empathy circle to talk about it. And it always kind of cleaned up the class to a point where it's like, totally, you know, he totally worked out. In fact, I started seeing it as an opportunity. It's not rewarding him, somebody were saying, Oh, you're just rewarding him by listening. It was. It was like, this is an opportunity to demonstrate the empathy circle process and to spread it. Test it out. Yeah. Yeah, it's even more than tested out, but to demonstrate it. So I really started using that process with conservatives when they would attack me like, oh, great, come, let me talk to you and empathize. Let's have an empathy circle. So I use it actually to promote the empathy circle. So anyway, it's kind of a long winded explanation of that. Yeah.
No, that's really cool, though. Yeah.
Yeah, I've got recordings of it, too. So
yeah, that's really wonderful. Because that's, you know, some people will come to therapy, and they'll even say, you know, I'm treatment resistant. And that's because they've been to many therapists, and nobody's been able to kind of help the, you know, they maybe they carry the same relationship pattern into everything. And it ends up creating the same kind of relational knots and problems over and over. So
yeah. The other aspect of the empathy circle is that your silent listener points to so we've got three roles, right, we've got the listener, the, the active listener, and the speaker and the silent listener. So you're talking about complications, that adds another aspect to it that I think, and it's multiple points of view, so that person is in trouble, the person trouble, you know, or resistance, as you're saying, they're getting heard from three different people, which adds multiple points of view, as well. Which I think adds something to the, to the dynamics. Right?
I think so. Yeah.
Okay, well, I think I got a much better clearer sense of, you know, where you're seeing the, you know, how you're defining it. You also use the the, the blocks to empathy, which, you know, created that whole blocks to empathy. Heading was a bunch of blocks, because it does seem to be talking about what do we mean by the empathy, this the feeling into? And then what are the things that are blocking that, I think is seems like an easy, productive sort of way to approach it? Or what do you think about that?
Yeah, I think it's, I mean, what I like about your list is that it includes a lot of behavioral blocks, like, what are some things that people do that block their ability to even like, do the empathy circle and I sometimes think of blocks in the past is like emotions, like shame or fear. But now, I'm starting to think that anything that makes empathy work can also be a block, so you could feel too much into, and that would be a block, or you could just, you know, regulate yourself too much. And that could be a block. And that can manifest in so many different ways that I feel like you could kind of cover it under those headings. But behaviorally, the empathy circles cool because it's like, there's some very distinct lines. And if somebody colors outside those lines, that's right there, there's an evidence of a block. So it's very kind of cut and dry. For that person, if they're interested in working on themselves, or for other people in the group.
Well, I'm hearing also a depth of empathy that you're talking about, right? There's, like, how do you go deeper into an empathic connection? Yeah, and what is it that you're more superficial and how do you go deeper, you know, with, if you're familiar with the NVC it's about what are the feelings and then connecting to the needs sort of identifying that I've seen that can be quite powerful if you can really name the, the the feeling or the need behind what the person is saying Right. Are you familiar with that the feelings and needs model of NBC?
I'm not. I'm wondering how that would manifest though. Like, if you, for instance, like if someone starts speaking beyond their turn or something, and you've got to identify the feeling that they're having, and then the need underneath that, or how do you put it together? Yeah.
Well, there's kind of two aspects. One is when you're just listening, when it's your turn, and you say, oh, you know, I feel really angry. You know, this, and that happened. They say, Well, I'm hearing you're feeling some real anger, and you have maybe a need for recognition or safety. And I'll say, yeah, that's it. You know, you've sort of identified the feeling that under the Oh, I see anger. So there's, and that's sort of NBC is pretty much about that. It's like trying to identify that core. Yeah, that's how your need.
Yeah, that's really helpful. And that brings, that's kind of it sounds like that's a concrete way of bringing your listening skills or empathy skills down a deeper level.
That's cool. So that's one way. The other way is if if somebody is interrupting a circle, you know, the structure process, and they get really angry, you know, an interrupt and as a facilitator, someone could say, I hear you're really angry. You're needing your voice to be heard, or you're, you're needing to be seen and recognized. And it's like, yeah, that's right. And I say, Well, that and then just that being acknowledged for that will usually calm them down to enough points, then I'll say, Well, you really want to hear what you have to say. But just whenever it's your turn, is that okay, so I try to bring them back into the process. Yeah. So yeah. So those are those are two examples of the and then there's the the process the whole thing of the the, the focusing, you say you're done football,
yeah. Yeah.
So you've worked with that?
Um, more theoretically, yeah. Okay.
So that's very much about staying with the felt experience in the moment, and getting an empathic reflection on that. So
yes, yeah. Well, I like, Yeah, I like what you said about wreck, getting the felt sense in the moment, recognizing the need underneath that felt that feeling that you're sensing. And then reinstating the boundary saying, Well, you know, and you do it in a very gentle way. Like, can you can we wait until it's your turn? Is that all right, you know? So that that's kind of how I hear that, yeah.
And then you kind of do it and they say, Wow, then they do it again, and then say, well, if you don't want, we had an agreement to have this structure. If you don't want to take part, you can just leave. And then I had with my sister in law where things broke down like that we're in discussion. And she just would not go back into an empathic listening process. And I said, Well, I'm here to do the empathic listening, if you don't want to do it, I'm going to go and I was like, okay, okay, I'll do it. So that so it's that structure, right, that basic agreed structure before we go into it, that is also has some guardrails around it?
Yeah. protection for both people. Yeah. Right. I think it can be really helpful to set I've learned so much how helpful it can be to set expectations and then beginning is a way to set up that because as much as you'd want things to be unconditional, everything has conditions, so it's best to acknowledge them at the outset. So that Yeah,
yeah, I agree with that. It's like everything has a structure it's just whether we're able to name it there is no real total unstructured this.
Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, that's okay. That
was great. We mapped it onto the circle as well. So I yeah, I guess what, where do we go from here kinda,
but Well, I'm interested in kind of hearing more your, your thoughts like? I kind of have an idea of the components that you've described being Like central to empathy, like being self empathy, relational empathy, imaginative empathy. Trying to remember everything else relational, already pretty
empathic action movie negotiated, negotiated in perfect agreement. Yeah, yeah.
And I see that you and I often I have observed that, that my ideas and your ideas maybe come together around this, this importance of like, more of an intuitive way of being. So but but that's just me, I'm curious about kind of your thoughts on that, if you have,
yeah, I'm keep coming up with this sort of academic model, because, you know, I was reading Allison's paper. And she was pretty much defining emotional empathy is all things I don't consider empathy. It's like, what is it gets so complex, in the sense that I don't even have the list here, I wrote it someplace. So her Oh, she was defining emotional empathy is all the things that are reactions to the empathizing with someone. It was several, a couple of them to I don't, I should have had.
And so I mean, more like personal distress, empathy,
right? personal distress, that's it, then she had no concern. And other so these are all things that you're sensing into, or feeling into, I mean, I feel like both feeling and sensing into I kind of see them interchangeably. And the definition of emotional empathy is sort of your reaction to what it is that you're sensing. And I see, the emotional is more this, the feeling of the emotions of the other, in an empathic within in an empathic space, like I'm sensing and feeling into, I'm sensing into, but there's almost this spaciousness, and attention and presence. And non judgmental, you know, it's not having the blocks not judgmental, not trying to control or change what the person is saying, or feeling, and being present, or even going a little bit farther into the underlying needs that they have, you know, feeling those. And it's, and my reaction is an empathic reaction, it's my, my empathy, my presence is just staying there. And the way she was defining emotional empathy was all these different reactions that are going on in you. And so,
oh, I get what you mean, I think, can I reflect that back? Thank you. Great. Yeah. So I think I hear you say, I want to make sure I get it right like that, you're saying that empathy is more the action of feeling in sensing into or feeling into what someone's feeling, and that that's an actual action, or something that we do. And the feelings that come as a result of that are just the result of having taken that action rather than actually, itself? Yeah,
and then it's a it's sort of a process and the state of mind to it has a high degree of presence to it, it has, you know, it doesn't have like judgment, or you're trying to control where the person goes, is really trying to be present, maybe even feeling in a little bit farther than the person is even aware of themselves. And, you know, be also being sensitive to maybe not naming that because you can sense that would be too much. So it's that sensing into feeling into process of the feelings that the person is having. I mean, they can be feeling grief, they could be have feeling joy, they could be feeling curious, the whole sense the whole spectrum of who they are, it's just being present with that. And, you know, maybe stuff is happening, you can't not happen, have some kind of reactions going on, or maybe even a judgment or something. But, you know, it's almost like a percentage of your attention. If you have 100% Attention, you know, 60 70% is just being really present or even more, and then maybe stuff was kind of happening in the background. And those things that are happening in the background are not necessarily they're more like reactions than then what I would do Consider empathy.
Right? Yeah. So you're sensing into somebodies experience, what you're saying is kind of dominating your experience in doing that is more of a presence of mine or clarity of thinking than anything else. And the emotions or associations you have to it perhaps in the back your mind, like, the remaining 32%, or whatever, is more like, you know, just secondary actually,
there is an emotion the empathy is a felt the space to it's not like, Hey, I'm just this, this not not nothing this it's actually the empathy has a space to it, since tends to have sort of a, a gentleness, warmth or sense of presence to it. So it has its own sort of energy, as well. It's not like, it's not neutral. It's empathic. It's like an empathic space. And Rogers defined it as a strong, subtle Viet something. That way of being Mm hmm.
Yeah, so you're just you're saying, when somebody enters into that empathic space, it's more of a neutral space, it's not like not neutral,
it's empathic. I don't like the word neutral. Because neutral has, it's not neutral, I find it's empathic. And there's a difference between neutral and empathic. And there might not even be such a thing as neutral, because everything is something kind of,
okay, you didn't say neutral, but what you were saying made me think of almost like a clear container. Somebody becomes like a clear container. And that was my association to that. But like, someone becomes a very present kind of clear container for the other persons. To receive the other person.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then all the things that are things that might be, you know, responses to that, I don't, or they're, they're your responses and there's something you have to kind of deal with, but that's no longer the kind of the core essence of empathy to me. And because all those, you know, the, in the academic model that they're saying, there's like three or four responses, you know, and Pathak, distress or personal distress, you know, empathic concern. I can't remember there's a couple others to the agency and perspective. Yeah, perspective. You perspective taking. And so if you're going to be calling the reactions, empathy, then you to be fair, you have to call every reaction, empathy, right? You if you have, if, if a little bit of anger comes up, well, it should be called empathic anger. If there's a camera, his name right now, but he's trying, he's been promoting empathic joy. He's, he's wanting to say, well, it's not just stress, distress and, and concern, there's also a joy comes up to so let's call it empathic joy. But then you can go through every single response, and say, It's empathic, this empathic, that empathic that to be logically consistent, but you can't, you can't just pick and choose empathic distress. Okay, empathic fatigue, there now the compassion communities trying to sell compat, empathic fatigue, etc. There's a lack of logic to it. Yeah, I mean, you can just reflect that. So because
I think what I hear you saying is that if we're going to define empathy, by the reactions we get as a result of engaging in what I would call an empathic process, then we have to call every reaction we have within that process. Exactly. reaction. So empathic, anger empathic fear, empathic sadness, but you know that you were recalling Dan Siegel's? I think it was Dan Siegel's ego, right? Yeah. I was looking at that on the website, that one of the facets of empathy that he talks about is empathic joy, but that if we're going to start doing that, it should be more than just empathic joy and personal distress empathy. It should be the whole nine yards like
exactly, that hits the nail on the head that so that they are and I'm really curious what your reaction to that is.
Well, I do so it's like Okay, so my mind went back to this clear container that you're saying this is defining our mind state when we're empathizing, this like clear container, receiving the other person state of mind. And then maybe there's like, you know, fish in the in the water of the container. But so instead of calling empathy that container, you're like you're saying all these little fish are is the empathy? And I don't know, I kind of like I like the idea of just recognizing the container itself before calling attention to what the container invites or brings about. Because whatever it invites or brings about is not, is not really defining the act itself. It's just defining the consequences of the act. Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of what I heard.
Yeah, that's exactly it. And yeah, I like the metaphor. You come up with these great metaphors to the fish, the fish, we're sure the emotions swimming in the in the, in the tank, the empathy tank, there's going to be another aspect that you got these, you know, fish feelings that are coming up, and then you sort of switch and it's like, well, let me share my, you know, fish within this empathic tank, you know, and the other person is listening. So slowly, kind of creating sort of this mutually empathic space. Right? Yes, there's a depth of the empathic space that happens.
Yes, yeah. And so like, as you describe the fish or the different emotions, the person can say, That's right, or no, you didn't hear that you? I don't know where you got that. But it's, that wasn't, that's not my fish, you know. And Rogers talks about how that's helpful. Even if you're wrong, it's helpful just to show that you're putting an effort in. And so yeah,
it may be it's, the effort is showing that you're wanting to create that empathic space, you have intention to that and that's like, creates a sense of trust, like, oh, that person really wants to understand me, they're trying, they're willing to be corrected. So it moves you into that into that space.
Yeah, exactly. Now, that makes sense. That non judgmental, clear space. Don't know what words you would put on it. But it's like this presence of mind, I think pack captures that best.
Yeah, and the tank in the tank, it can be a warm tank, you know, it's like, what's the quality of the water? You know, it's clear, it has a clarity to it, but it also has a degrees, you know, it's like warm or cold or, or is there? Yeah, there's maybe currents in it.
Right? Yeah. Yeah, that might be better. That might be even even better metaphor. Because if, if that tank or container is shared, then you could start trying to describe the contents of it. And if there's a disagreement about it, you know, how do you handle that? Oh, okay. So it doesn't feel like there's waves in this tank to you? What did what does it? You know, what, how are you perceiving it?
Yeah, so that's like talking about the relationship, the relationship is the tank, right? We can kind of be talking about the qualities of the of that tank.
Yeah, totally. Yeah, that it's an interest. It's interesting how you've reframed emotional empathy. It makes me wonder about what we call cognitive empathy, and whether or not you know, what words we're using to talk about that and are we sticking with our same metaphor across the board? Or, like perspective taking and fantasy? Do we make the same error with those as we do with emotional empathy?
I think so, in the sense that the cognitive empathy, which is usually described as imagining, you know, you see, it's imagining, so the imagining is that, you know, we're in the tank, and you know, you're you're you the certain type of fish, I mean, other type of fish. Kind of expanding this metaphor, but I can take the role of a different fish. I can say, Oh, I'm a little minnow, you know, and what is it like to be a minnow from this perspective? Being a minnow let me now be a minnow in this tank. Imagining being the minnow or I can be the seaweed I mean, what is it like being the seaweed or I can be this rock this sense of coral here? Or I can imagine myself being the whole tank in what am I sensing and feeling is a tank or I can be imagined myself being whatever fish you are, right? So the imagination is like, it's like unlimited. It's like you can suddenly, oh, I can imagine myself being the air outside of this tank, and what that might be. So
yeah, there's like a spirit about it like this playful. This playful quality that maybe can't be defined just as like perspective, taking your fantasy, there's like this kind of playful spirit about it. It's not just like perspective taking or, or fantasizing, but it's the imagining yourself in all sorts of different not roles, but from all sorts of vantage points and all sorts of, from all sorts of reference points, in all different positions, different frames of mind different. Yeah,
yeah, and what is the felt the experience there. So if you're doing fantasy or more of a perspective, taking the perspective taking has a felt experience to it, when you're taking, I mean, it would be good to have some examples of perspective taking, but there is a felt experience to that perspective, or it can be just very, it could be a very, let's say, analytical or academic, you know, very constricted, very focused, very concentrated feeling of taking the perspective of someone that has a lot of those qualities of, you know, analytic and so forth, which is as fair as any other perspective, you know, feeling to
write. Yeah, I almost think of perspective taking as opposed to fantasy or imagination as more like, if I'm talking to someone, and I knew, I have some information about them, like say, their, their dog just died or something, then I'm going to try not to maybe if I'm in a meeting with them, I'll try not to bring up anything related to dogs because I'm, I know that that's a, if I take their perspective, for a moment, I know that if I were in their shoes, I kind of wouldn't want to be reminded of that. So I think if it is more calculating whether or not that's true, then then something as playful as imagining, you know, if you're a certain type of fish, or you know, a certain type of thing there, you know,
okay, so you're seeing perspective, taking in this, what I'm hearing is, is, if someone's or dog just died, that you want, you don't want to accentuate their pain that they're in. So you're going to imagine you sort of imagine if it was me that that happened, I wouldn't want to mention, you know, some a dog or something without my trigger them. So you're, you're sort of calculating what you say to them. So you don't have them go into a deeper pain into a deeper or trigger some more pain.
Or that or using the information in some other way, like, knowing that if I tell a story that's related, that they're gonna, that's where their minds gonna go. And so I just, it's almost like, a more mathematical like deduction, like, Oh, I know this fact. So therefore, I know that the person will react much in such way. It's almost like, um, yeah, I don't know. I don't know if that makes sense. Like, it's more of a kind of linear way of thinking, I guess. Yeah. So you're
seeing perspective taking is more linear, that you're sort of analyzing what the effects would be on what what your actions are in relationship to the other person?
I heard? Yeah.
Oh, this is? This is I'm glad it's recorded. Yeah. You guys have interesting conversations for eternity out there.
Yeah. I'm glad it was captured.
Especially the fish tank. I never seen a copy of the same thing.
Right? The fish or the emotions, no one will know what you're referring to. But that's all right. Now, since it, yeah.
All right. So what would you like to do next, like next time or where should what should we go?
Well, maybe a good next step would be we could if you have time now we could look over some of the transcripts and see if any of them pop out as being good candidates for transcribing or for tape. Determining the take home message like I could do this one.
Oh, okay. Big Right. Okay. I did the first one I can do the second one, go back.
Okay. I'll do the one after the last one. I did too.
So yeah, it's good, give it a little bit of space. And then you go back and see thing. It's amazing. When I go back, I said, Wow, really talked about that. And you remember that? And yeah, it's kind of refreshes a lot. There's the other aspect, I think, is in terms of coming up with a definition, like, I'm looking at that, having that core definition. And, you know, having some sense of maybe agreement or mutual understanding around it, and, and then kind of addressing maybe blocks to the empty, I think, even going into individual blocks, like one at a time, like, you know, an exploration of each of the blocks in relation. Yeah, I guess on one hand, I'm looking for some kind of a simple enough definition, that is conveyable, to anyone taking an empathy circle, or even just in general, it's easy enough for them to understand, to to be able to use, you know, in a practical sense to their sort of, like, really complicated concepts, or some of the things we were talking about, which is fun to get into. But can we have a simple definition, that sort of, kind of encapsulates everything and just, you know, really a clear, you know, something that can be built around and can keep building on to, it's just something to consider considering?
Well, I wonder if I know, at one point, you were considering making a YouTube or some sort of pictograph of that would illustrate what empathy is, either for people that are just starting in the empathy circle, or,
you know, I did start that I have no, I'd started something for a talk, I did it at a mediation group and those kind of defining empathy. So I came up with some bait, I can send that to you, again, if you can want to take a look, give any feedback on it?
That'd be cool. I mean, I just wondered if a fish tank could be a picture you use. Because I think I hadn't thought of it quite in that way. And that was pretty, pretty cool paradigm like pretty cool shift for me to differentiate the presence of mind in the action of the empathic action of leaning in from the consequences of that. I think that what yeah, when people just say emotional empathy, it's sort of shorthand for what happens when you decide to empathize with someone. The first reaction type of thing,
first reaction you have, yeah.
But I think it's so helpful for people to know that that's not it, like, don't try to don't try to feel anything, you know, just because I think if people try too hard to feel, to have a reaction to what someone's saying, they could get caught up in the reaction instead of instead of remaining present to what's going on.
The one thing with the metaphor it has it captures one aspect of the empathy but what are the what are the, it's like the the fish, like there's two two beings, right? And the fish are kind of going also in our own heads in a way right there. If there's two it's here, it's like there's two there's a fish tank, right with water. And there's two bubbles, if there's just two of us two bubbles in the fish tank, right? They're glass bubbles, or, or Yeah, and within those orange, a little fish. So that's adding another layer to it. And somehow those orbs are sort of relating to each other with little with emotions going but somehow there's emotions flowing between it as well. So
right Yeah, well, I think we can get caught up in those emotions. So we can like get caught up in the fish brain or the orb. mentality, but kind of lose sight of lose perspective on mentalization which I think is the or intuition might be the the container, something. There's lots of things that distract us or pull us out of that awareness and bring us into fish the fish brain
In passing fish, no more monkey my monkey
sounded good. That doesn't sound good. That doesn't sound like a good place to me.
It's not a fish brain. It's like fish tank brain. Something it's like, yeah.
Um, I don't know. So maybe we could work that metaphor. Oh, and yeah. Yeah.
I'll always I'll have be sitting with that metaphor and you'll have it night something will come up a new kind of aspect of it but I will look at that second one I do. I didn't take notes on the first one. There's the notes are there. Okay. And then I'll take a look at the second one in sort of like in two weeks again, does that?
Sure. Yeah, that sounds good. So instead of doing this one, I'll do the one after the, the one I did last time because it's always good to get some, like you're saying it's good to have a little bit of time between revisiting them so.
Okay, so that's the 16th.
Okay, I'll just, I have my agenda here. So. Okay, that sounds good. Six o'clock on the 17th and three, three o'clock your time then? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's that'll work for me. That'll work well. So
that was fun. I'm really sitting with that fish takes IV I thought everybody sort of embodied in the fish. Yeah. Thanks. Fun. Come up with these metaphors sometimes, which are really powerful, I think.
Oh, thanks. I appreciate being able to say those that you get them and you'd like them because sometimes that's the best way for me to say what I'm thinking it's hard to put it in other words.
Yeah, there's a fun and playfulness to metaphors to that you know, shifts from you know, really focused attention that oh, this is like so adds a whole creativity and aspect to it. Yeah. Yeah. Cool.
Awesome. All right. Well, already watching this. Yeah, take care. See ya. Thank you admin. Bye, guys.
