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S2E28 the-plight-of-afghan-women-shown-in-with-this-breath-i-fly | Otter.ai

S2E28 the-plight-of-afghan-women-shown-in-with-this-breath-i-fly

Natalia Sobery40min

Sam French

00:01

Afghanistan, if you're a woman, it's very hard for you to get a divorce or to own property, you are voiceless and faces to the state. Sometimes you don't even have identity cards. A lot of times the law is interpreted through tribal law. So a lot of women if they either run away from her husband because they don't know how to get a divorce, or if they are raped, or if there's some other social crime, quote, unquote, crime, they can be arrested in a prison by the judicial system, the state. So there's 1000s of women languishing in African prisons, and they actually raise their children within these prisons

Steve Fast

00:36

in 2021. The Taliban surged back to power in Afghanistan. Two decades after NATO Allies toppled the regime. The initial ousting of the Islamic fundamentalist Taliban came with inferences from those supporting nation building in Afghanistan, that women would have access to education and a seat in governing their own fate. In reality, the fates of women in Afghanistan were intertwined with tribal culture and social beliefs that make women far from equals in the court system supported by the European Union and the United States. This is random acts of knowledge presented by Heartland Community College, I'm your host, Steve fast shot over 10 years before the NATO and US withdrawal from Afghanistan. The documentary film with this breath I fly follows the stories of two women sentenced to prison in Afghanistan for so called moral crimes. Perhaps reflective of the war itself. The creation of this documentary film was also a complicated struggle for the filmmakers and their subjects.

Sam French

01:34

Hi, my name is Sam French. I am a filmmaker, a director and a writer, and a co director and CO producer of with this breath, I fly alongside it my co writer Clem Malpass, and producer Lesley not. And we shot the film in Afghanistan, I guess over the course of the last 10 years, it's been a long journey. And we're very excited to finally be releasing the film this year.

Steve Fast

01:56

So Sam, tell us a little bit about the film and how you made it and when you made it.

Sam French

02:01

So to do that, I'm going to have to tell you about a little bit of of of my story, I spent five years in Afghanistan, I went to Afghanistan in 2008, to actually follow a woman I had fallen in love with who's a British diplomat, and ended up in this beautiful, wonderful country full of incredibly generous, hospitable, funny, kind Afghans. And as I was looking around, one of the things that really made me want to tell stories about the people there was how they treated women and how women are, in many ways, second class citizens in the country, although in many ways, they do also have power. It's a very complex system, which we can get into. I became friends and colleagues with Lesley knot and Clem Malpass. And they came to me to pursue a project that was funded by the European Union, I had started a company called development pictures, which made documentaries for the UN and for other NGOs and nonprofits. And so we teamed up and we pitched on a project, we submitted a proposal to make a film about women's rights, that's what they wanted to do. And we pitched this idea of making a film about women who had been imprisoned for so called moral crimes. To give some context, in Afghanistan, if you're a woman, it's very hard for you to get a divorce, or to own property, your voice listen faces to the states, sometimes you don't even have identity cards, even though the Afghan constitution insurance used to not anymore and we can talk about that too, used to enshrine women's rights in the Constitution, a lot of times the law is interpreted through tribal law. So a lot of women if they either run away from her husband, because they don't know how to get a divorce, or if they are raped, or if there's some other social crime, quote, unquote, crime, they can be arrested in a prison by the judicial system, the state. So there's 1000s of women languishing in African prisons, and they actually raise their children within these prisons. I mean, because of course, no man can raise a child in Afghanistan. And so we had seen this problem. And seeing that not much has been had been done about it, like how many stories have been told about it, and the international community sort of was ignoring it. And so we pitched the idea. And the European Union thought that was a good idea. And we were off to the races. And we spent a lot of time finding the right women through which to tell this story.

Steve Fast

04:17

It's interesting that you talk about how the international community doesn't get into some of those details of women's rights in Afghanistan, because during or probably the entire time that you were making the film. But up until very recently, the Western nations were pouring an awful lot of money and resources into Afghanistan, and supporting some of those same governments that were upholding these laws that violate what most would say was the violation of human rights.

Sam French

04:45

Yeah, this is the larger issue that our film does not directly address, but which was lurking in the background the whole time. It is a very complex thing to do what's called nation building, and a lot of the agencies who are in charge of Building up Afghan institutions, since it's a warzone, this is back in 2008 2013. We filmed in 2010 1112 13, these NGOs, UN agencies and stuff like that aren't actually able to go out in the field and really see if the programs are working. So there's just a lot of money being poured into the country. And a lot of that money is just wasted. I mean, a lot of graft corruption, some of it went to the Taliban at the time, or to local warlords or to, you know, line the pockets of politicians. And so the system is rife for corruption itself. But also, I think it's very hard to give money to a country and then tell them how to live their lives. That's actually something ethically, that we shouldn't do, I believe, but at the same time, how do you support a country where whose ethics don't you don't agree with right? So we worked very hard with the Afghan government, many of whom in the government. And actually I should say this, there were more women in parliament in Afghanistan at the time, then there are the US Senate. So this is not a black and white issue. People are trying their best and doing their best to make sure that we have a free and fair society. In Afghanistan. They enshrined laws in the Constitution that was written in cooperation with the international community to enshrine women's rights and, and things like that. But when you go into a country, there's also this embedded cultural history. And so that's the thing that we wanted to unpack in the film. And interestingly, in our film itself, that issue raised its head for sure, because we were funded, as I mentioned, by the European Union, and it's a huge organization, it's a continent, right, so they fund, you know, billions of dollars of money for everything from building roads to you know, D mining the country, from land mines, to supporting social institutions and arts and stuff like that. They also fund the justice system in Afghanistan. So they paid the salaries of the prison guards, they paid the salaries of the cops, as did we in America. So when we made the film, what happened was, one hand was giving us the money. And then when we submitted the film, to the European Union, as per our contract with them, and they own the film, because they contracted us to make it the one hand that had given us money, showed it to the people in Brussels, and the people in Brussels said, what are we doing, we fund this justice system, we can't have a film come out that's negative about the prisons that we are giving money to make us look bad. So they decided to kill the film, Ban its release, they actually told us to delete all of the footage that we had found, which of course, we weren't willing to do. So that struggle between us, the filmmakers and the European Union mirrored this larger struggle of how do you ethically give money to a country and, you know, try to transform us institutions in an ethical way. And that story about that battle, the European Union is long and convoluted, happy to get into it. But it's, it's a mirror of the larger challenges we face.

Steve Fast

07:54

I would like to return to that. Because you know, obviously, the film is something that is being screened, at least, at Heartland Community College, and it is available to see so to a degree won that battle. But let's talk about what they were mad about. You follow the stories of two women. And I wonder if you could just give an overview of the individual things that you filmed and their stories over the course of those years. And what they had to go through from their personal situation is just regular people living in Afghanistan.

Sam French

08:22

Yeah. So Steve, I'm glad that you the focus back in the women because that's where the focus should be. And that's where we want the focus to be as filmmakers, you know, we never wanted ourselves to be part of this film. I'll get to how that happened in a second. But the film follows these two courageous women going as planned for Rita golnaz was raped by her uncle when she was 16 on the kitchen floor, and then when she reported the rape, and she only did so because she became pregnant. When she reported the rape to her doctor, the doctor called the police and the police said it of arresting both her and her uncle. The courts eventually ended up imprisoning her uncle for raping her, gave him two years of prison sentence and also sentenced and imprisoned Gomez for basically being raped. I think that the charge was forced adultery and give her 12 years in prison. That is the moral crime the film is concerned with, and how that's possible for Rita or other subjects, was married off by her parents at the age of 13. In Afghanistan, there's a lot of forced marriages. And she was married in a terrible marriage, her husband beat her mercilessly for 10 years she had many miscarriages and ended up because she didn't know how to pursue the option of getting a divorce and didn't think that was possible within the legal system. ended up meeting a younger man and running away with him. He's a wonderful fellow by the name of Brahma CODA and they ended up hiding out in a small village and then got getting caught. And initially the villagers thought they were just a young couple in love and on the run, so they were gonna force them to get married to absolve the sin of being together. But then they found out that she was married. So, so the villagers then found out that she was married. So who is arrested both her and Rama Kota threw them in prison, and they're separated by a prison wall. And the film follows their tragic love story almost like a Romeo and Juliet story in prison. As for Rita tries to get a divorce from her husband, because she, if she gets a divorce from her husband, then she hasn't really committed a crime. Right, her crime was basically running away from her husband, and committing adultery, but they had no proof of the adultery. They actually tried to give her virginity tests to see if she had had sexual relations with Rama coda. But of course, she had many had children, you know, which is ridiculous. So we follow these two women, that's how we met them, we actually met them in prison, and we follow their fight for freedom. Their stories take many, many twists and turns, we go up back up to for readers village and interview her parents, Interviewer husband, who I mean, that conversation between the lawyer and the husband is just for us was just revelatory in the fact that he was, you know, the hero of his own story. And then of course, with golnaz, she is raising her baby, the product of the rape, she's raising her baby in prison, and all she wants is a better life for her daughter, right? She knows that her life is over. Because in both of these cases, the families really disowned these women, like the shame of the dishonor of being raped or running away from your husband, you know, sometimes comes in these tribal villages with the sentence of death by your family, you know, so they don't really have any support. And the legal system is the place to put them there. So only a few brave lawyers are there to be on their side, including Shaquille who represented for Rita and Kim Motley, who's an American lawyer, African American lawyer who was in Afghanistan and took on these these cases of women's rights and human rights pro bono. So Kim is an incredible champion of women's rights. So the story takes too many twists and turns. But that's how we met them. And we start following them. And we go into their first case. And then the European Union tried to ban the film. So we had to pause filmmaking as we fought the European Union. And then, fast forward many years later, we actually had won that battle, but we didn't want to talk about it in the film. And we ended up realizing that in order to make sense of the stories of Gunas, and Frida, we had to input a little bit of what happened behind the scenes, because the thing that is taken from these women is their freedom, physical freedom. But not only that, their freedom to be members of society. They, as I said, cannot get identity cards, they can't really vote, they can't you know, and property. And so and then they're imprisoned and locked up. I mean, golnaz, for example, was raised in her mother's house, her father murdered, so she had never seen really the outside of her mom's house, and then she was raped, and then she was thrown into prison, then she had a baby. And then what happened was, she eventually got out into a shelter, and then she had never left the shelter. So this is someone who's never really been able to be free physically, the only freedom they have is the freedom to speak, to tell their stories. So they both knew that and they wanted to be in the film, because of that this is the freedom they had. And the European Union was trying to was trying to silence that voice. And so our fight with European Union, you know, and trying to get their voices to be heard, is really part of this larger story. So we ended up putting that in the film.

Steve Fast

13:22

It sounds as if being able to interview these women in prison, was it almost easier for them to have that freedom to speak or to feel that freedom to speak because they were in prison than it would have been? For somebody that hadn't been convicted of something? Are women more afraid to share their voices and be contrary, and they haven't had that taken away from them?

Sam French

13:43

Yes, that's a really good point, Steve. Yeah, women have a very hard time stepping out on their own to speak out in society. Unless they are supported by their family, or the male representative, their family, it had become a lot more open and free. I think after 20 years of at that time, 15 years of war, as I said, many women were in Parliament. But still, if you were going to get a job, you had to get permission from your husband, if you or your brother or your father. And so it's very hard to navigate that in the public. Because if you do something wrong, and that permission can be taken away really easily, right. So yeah, these women in prison had already lost everything. They'd already lost that support of their family, and so they had nothing left to lose. And so yeah, I think they felt a lot more free to speak out. This is the only way that they saw that their stories can be told, and you know what, they're right. Because a lot of these women are languishing in prison without a voice. And interestingly, you know, we did a feature film, which is an hour and a half long, whatever, that would be screen and people would watch it. Sure. But the press is the institution that can really reveal these things in real time. And what happened was when we had our fight with the European Union, the European Union intractable, they were suing my company and trying to block any release of the film or stop us from filming at all. And the press found out about that fight. So the press decided to write about the story and cover the story. And we didn't want to talk about ourselves. So we pointed them to the women and golnaz decided to speak publicly, because she became the face of women's rights in Afghanistan. And she, you know, interviewed on CNN multiple times, and MSNBC and ABC and NBC and AlJazeera. I mean, it was really a way for her to tell her story and also create some safety for herself. Because if she's public about what's happening, then you know, there's a lot less chance that she can be disappeared or, or hurt, because people know, she's there. She exists. So that is interesting. I think that, you know, the press has that role to play. But there's the downside, which is the fact that when people move on to new stories, then she's immediately forgotten, you know. So there was a moment in time when we were fighting with European Union, and the press was all over the story. And Gomez was speaking out publicly, that we had a chance. And so what happened was we not asked the filmmakers, because then I can talk about documentary ethics as it relates to the documentaries like this. It's a very tricky minefield to navigate. But Kim Gomez lawyer submitted a petition to President Karzai to give golnaz presidential pardon, which is really the only way she could be out of prison, she had exhausted all of Appeals. And President Karzai ended up agreeing, and he appeared on CNN, to announce his decision, which is just insane. But he pardoned her first part of a moral crimes case in history, really. And she was led out of prison and into a woman's shelter. But even there in the women's shelter, President Karzai, as Attorney General was coming into the shelter, trying to get Vince golnaz, to marry the man who raped her, which was actually the decision she had been forced to make since the very beginning. As soon as a woman is dishonored like this, a lot of times to wipe away the shame of dishonor, you actually marry the guy who rapes you. And in this case, to become the uncle's second wife. And we thought that was behind us, because you know, she'd been in prison. And then part of my cars, I know, it was still happening, the government was trying to make present that as a solution. And in the meantime, Kim Gomez lawyer, because of the press coverage, she hadn't had gotten a lot of offers of asylum from Germany and Canada and other places. But for golnaz, who grew up in her mother's house, and then it was in prison. Now in a woman's shelter going to Germany, it was like going to the moon. I mean, it was so far off. I mean, it was almost impossible, but she was willing to try. The problem is that she doesn't have an identity card. And so to leave the country, legally, she needs a passport to get to Pakistan, where she can go to the UNHCR office and apply for asylum. And that was impossible, because her brother would not take her to the government office to get her identity card. So you can see the problem here with women's rights, even under a system that is supposedly enshrining their rights in the Constitution. There's a lot more to talk about in terms of that story. But

Steve Fast

18:04

asking your question, as you talk about golnaz Is problems and struggles. You know, of course, it took a great effort and a very unique situation for her to be released from prison. So that brings me back to something that I find very interesting about this film. And your process is did you have any problems, getting access to this women's prison? A lot of the things that you talked about in the people that you were able to learn their stories. It's interesting to me that that you had access that you were able to interview these women learn their stories, talk about their stories, that CNN was able to come in and talk to golnaz, that, again, seems kind of unique, you think it would be so restricted that they wouldn't want to let you in there to do this?

Sam French

18:47

Yeah, it's actually both ironic and illuminative, how we were able to get access to the prisons, because the European Union who funded our film also funded the justice system, so they funded the prisons. And so they paid the salary of a lot of the people who work in the prisons, and the people worked in government overseeing the prison. So I had many, many cups of tea with the Minister of Justice of Afghanistan. And because of the European Union support, we were able to He granted this asset access. That's how we got access. So it's ironic that we were able to get access from the European Union who ended up eventually not wanting us to make the film in the end. But beyond that, I have to hear mention, not only mentioned but laud and champion, my colleagues and CO creators of this film. This is not me making this film, this is Lesley not and Clementine Malpass who made this film happen. They are two incredible women and my job was to support them. I just want to make that incredibly clear to every listener here is that I am so in awe of Lesley and Clem. And we had this incredible associate producer Farzana Wahidi who was the first female photojournalist In Afghanistan, incredibly strong, wonderful woman who really worked hard to get us x naught because we had access on paper to the prisons, but we didn't have like buy in. Right. So, Lesley and climbing Farzana spent days and days and days and days and weeks and weeks going into these prisons and making friends with the security guards, women's security guards in the women's wing, there was also men, we show one of them in a few of them in the film. But they the women had some sympathy for the women under their care. So Clem and Leslie persona made friends with, you know, the prison guards and a lot of the women in the prison and this prison is more of like a dormitory than like, the prisons you see in America, right? In America, it's like you have this mental image of like, bars clanging shot and all this stuff. In these prisons, it's more of like, there's walls, but it's everyone lives in like a dorm. And there's kids running around everywhere, because all these women are raising their children in the prison. I mean, it's insane. So I would say kudos to Clem and Leslie and Prasanna to get in there. And you know, have all the women in these prisons, like understand what we were trying to do, and then think that that's a good idea and agreed to cooperate, not just cooperate, but enthusiastically participate, that I think gets at a larger thing about making documentaries, which is a philosophy that I think should be adopted, that I've struggled for 20 years to understand and implement in my own work, which is that idea of enthusiastic participation. Like, as filmmakers, we're not taking someone's story and presenting it to people, we are telling a story in cooperation with the people that are in the film. That's so important, I think, understand and embrace because, you know, there are so many stories that make up who we are as people, and sometimes the documentary film process can unearth a story that you might not necessarily otherwise tell, even to your friends, your closest family. And that process can be incredibly beautiful, but it has to be handled with care. And especially in this case, you know, going as a Fredo weren't talking publicly about what happened to them, that only they would even tell their friends how Goannas, for example, was raped on the kitchen floor and what that felt like and, and how that changed her life. And that's, it's so personal, but she told us, she told me, and, and Leslie. So that's the power of documentary filmmaking, you can only do that if you come in with integrity and want to tell the story in cooperation with the subjects.

Steve Fast

22:19

And you talked about how your colleagues, as women, were able to make connections with other women that were involved in the justice system and or guards and worked with this prison? Did the people working the women working in this prison empathize with Gomez and? And for Rita? Was this something where they, they were helpful, because they themselves thought this is something that, that people should know about the system they work in?

Sam French

22:46

Yeah, in some ways, in some ways, some did. Some didn't. I mean, it's it's very complex, everyone's human right. And also, keep in mind, that there are a lot of women in prison for moral crimes, but there's also a lot of murderers and criminals in these prisons, you know, burrito was dorming with someone who had killed her husband. You know, I mean, it's, it's insane. It's, this is a prison, right? So these women who work they're pretty, they're prison guards. I mean, it's real. So it's a complex situation. So I think, you know, but yeah, I think that you can't help but look at these women, and sympathize with some of their stories if you understand and empathize with them, which is the goal of what we are trying to do as filmmakers. And so I think, through the process of telling a story, I think, yeah, it, it's compelling. That said, I think what surprised us is that we thought that the men in Afghanistan would also sympathize, and empathize with the women and that sort of never have it no matter how much you like, well, don't you understand what it feels like to be raped on the kitchen floor? Or be in a loveless marriage that where you're being beaten every day? No, it's very hard to understand for the culture, because that's sort of the way it is set up. And actually, I'll say this, I'll say that one of the most surprising things also for us was, and we mentioned it in the film a little bit when Gomez is in the shelter, and Kim talks about how the women in power also oppress other women. We had great dreams that this film would change the situation in Afghanistan, because of course, when you see this film, you can't help but go, oh, we have to change everything. We ended up showing this film to a bunch of members of parliament, women members of parliament, it wasn't the final cut, but it was you know, a rough cut. And they turned around and and looked at us after the screening and said never show this film anywhere. Don't show this to anyone. And that was the most surprising reaction. I think I've heard from a screening. Their argument was we don't want to upset people because we are trying to get power to help women like this. But if you piss off our male colleagues with stuff like this, then it's gonna make our jobs harder.

Steve Fast

24:52

In situations like Afghanistan, is you walk this fine line right between colonialism where you just figure everybody will adopt your values of what you think a society should be. And then also trying to fast forward some other culture into being like yours, which is impossible. So there's, I guess, the sort of real politic concept of, well, if we do this now, maybe in 50 years, women won't be thrown in prison for moral crimes. I think that's what the politicians try to grapple with, because they don't have an answer. So they probably that's what they freaked out about when they saw that film.

Sam French

25:27

This is I think the heart of the issue here is that there's two things I'd like to say here. One is that Afghanistan is not a scary other place. It's scary in a lot of ways. There's a lot of, there's some bad people there. The Taliban are not cool, right. But the Afghans that I am friends with that I've come to know and to love over the course of my career and living there for five years, they hate the Taliban, more than we do. They have reason to hate the Taliban, the Taliban beat their sisters in the streets, the executor people, the stadiums in the 90s. You know, these are bad people, and the Afghan people don't want them in power. In the 70s, Afghanistan was known as the Paris of Central Asia, it was progressive, quote, unquote, to write Western standards, you know, there's a lot more women in the universities than men there was, you know, it was opening up to the world flowering and arts and culture. I mean, it was an incredible place. Guess what happened in the Soviet Union, the United States fought our own battles on their soil, and the consequences that we see today as the Taliban take over and refuse to let women go to school. So the film itself, I think, also reflects back upon us. And when you talk about nation building, I think sometimes we should look at the nation we live in, and we should stop trying to control women's bodies in this country. And if we take this film, and take a look and use it as a mirror to reflect back upon our own society, you know, women in America got the right to vote 100 years ago, it's not too far off, we can be in shock and awe about throwing someone in prison for being raped, and yet, at the same time, force a 13 year old to carry a baby who might kill her to term. So let's take a look at ourselves, you know, oh, that's what I'll say about that.

Steve Fast

27:20

You mentioned, when people want to see the film, they'll probably learn more about Gomez's story, but once she was in this untenable situation, where she did get released, but sort of had nowhere to go, where was she able to go? And also, what does that mean for her children? What are the prospects of children who grow up basically in prison?

Sam French

27:39

Yeah, well, I don't want to ruin the end of the film for everybody. But yeah, she was faced with the choice of trying to find asylum, and how to get out of this woman's shelter, without the support of a male relative, or to bow to pressure and marry the man who raped her. In the end, she ended up agreeing to marry the man, you know, I don't think I'm ruining the ending, because the ending is about and how that feels to the audience. But, you know, in my mind, it's very bittersweet, because there are no other options for her, there was no viable path or her to leave the shelter and become a woman on her own living on her own in Afghanistan, she needed support. And so if she's not able to leave the country, then this seemed to be the only viable option for her. You know, and the thing is, is that her, her overriding desire was to find a way to get a better future for her daughter. And at the end of the film, we thought that might be happening. I mean, you know, that she was the husband promised to put the daughter into school, get her an education, you know, and maybe that generation might change things in Afghanistan. Unfortunately, we've been making this film for over a decade, it's taken a long time to get to this point, both because of financial issues and logistical issues and everything else. But we thought we'd be releasing this film with some sort of optimism and hope. And at the moment, the Taliban have taken back over Afghanistan and have refused to let young women like on as his daughter go to school. So it's really sad, what's happening in the world in real life. So yeah, I don't know what's going to happen in the future. But for Goannas I mean, at least, she's physically safe. At the moment, she's wrapped back up into Afghan society, playing by the rules, as is for Rita. So at least that's an ending that, I guess was inevitable from the beginning. I don't know. It's tough to make these things. I think the when you make them our goal, well, at least my goal, I can't speak for Lesley and climb but my goal is to tell the story. First and foremost, it's hard enough to do that. That is a hard prospect to tell a story with integrity and with skill. You know, I'm not an activist. I can't be an activist as well. I've seen too much I've done too much. should have been in places like Afghanistan takes a mental toll and emotional toll. I can't go out and be an activist, what I can do is tell a good story. Hopefully, you liked the story. And then maybe we can start a conversation about how we might be able to spark some sort of change in our own country, or at least have people start understanding what's in empathizing people in other places, and then maybe the world will get a little better. That's all I can hope for.

Steve Fast

30:29

I imagine it's a long, winding, complicated story. But in the time we have, I'm wondering if you could give a little bit of the cliffnotes of how you were able to take control of this project, when your funders, the European Union, wanted to take it away from you didn't want to see it released, and tried to pull the plug basically, in the project.

Sam French

30:47

It is a long and winding road, complicated ins and outs. But ultimately, it's quite simple. The Press found out about what was happening. It became a international news story, President Karzai went on CNN to pardon golnaz. After all that happened, the European Union, you know, had been trying to sue me and my company, and I talked to them, I said, Look, you don't want to sue us, all we want to do is make this film just give us the copyright of the footage that we've shot. And we'll go off and go our separate ways. That's what ended up happening. Because the press was in the international community was very confused as to why the European Union was trying to ban this film, after they saw the compelling story of Goannas. I will say this, I'll say that the European Union tried to go into the prisons and convince gonads and Frieda to withdraw their support of the film, which was not cool. And we documented some of that in the film. But ultimately, you know, I do believe that the people that we were talking with the European Union were genuinely concerned about their safety. And I think the frustration I might have is that we were as well. I mean, we were filmmakers were ethical, we are not going to make a film without the enthusiastic participation of the people in the film. And so yeah, we were everyday concerned about their safety. So we didn't really have a partner in the European Union and ended up I think, going our separate ways. I will say that that battle, it's very hard to make films, in this day and age, even now. And there's a lot of documentaries on TV. It's very hard to fund these things, especially independent documentaries like this. And so after that battle of the European Union, and legal fees, and all that stuff, like we were broke, and so we did some crowdfunding campaigns afterwards to raise money to complete the film. But also, we all left Afghanistan after that, and you know, how to deal with the emotional toll of being in a war zone and trying to like figure out what was next for us. So it's, it's been a long journey, personally for us as well. But we managed to raise enough money to get thing finished. And we're now hoping that this year is the year that we get it out for wider distribution to at least the international community. And we're looking to do that we're excited.

Steve Fast

32:59

Prior to this project and working with your collaborators on this documentary, you had made another film that was set in Afghanistan. I don't I don't know if it was filmed at all in Afghanistan was Kashi boys? Yeah. nominated for an Oscar. Did that help with any of your the struggles you had, in trying to connect with people and trying to get the project this current project alone to have that cachet? Did that in any way? Sort of change your prospects by having that, that recognition for the previous film?

Sam French

33:31

Yes. And no, I first of all, yeah, it was gushy boys. We filmed in 2010. In Afghanistan, we did film in Afghanistan entirely on location in Afghanistan. And it was made by a coalition of international and Afghan filmmakers, we actually started a nonprofit to train Afghan filmmakers on the production to big, big show, there was a lot. It was a narrative narrative film. So we had, you know, the documentary, you can run around with a camera and film some stuff with this. We had 45 people on set. And then it was a big production, that raised a lot more concerns about security and all that stuff, but also buy in from local communities and making sure that people were excited about the project. And the best thing about that film, I think, for me, is that Afghans love the film. And, you know, at our premiere in Afghanistan, it was received with great acclaim and excitement. And I think everyone's very pleased that I led the charge on that, along with and I will, I will say this to my dying breath. My producer Ariel Nasir, who is an incredible filmmaker, director, producer, Canadian Afghan and without you know, it was a really a team effort and without Ariel as the film would never have been made. But that said, so I think it helped in that way. And in the fact that people like in Afghanistan, like that film, I mean, the we were filming that was coming out sort of when we were in still in production on with his breath I fly and then the Oscars happening to their doesn't their team And we were still filming with his brother fine. And we all left Afghanistan. So it didn't really help. It's hard to make films, right. And you would think that discussion, boys would open a lot of doors and funding possibilities for me in terms of getting this film off over the finish line. And in some ways it did. I mean, I think it helps with our crowdfunding, you can hopefully rest assured that the money you might give this project will be used wisely. But still, I mean, I think, going to Hollywood, for example, Hollywood doesn't care. I mean, so it's still very hard. That said, what I will say about, it helped in another way, which is just maturing as a filmmaker, I mean, like, the more stuff you do as a filmmaker, the better you get. And the more you learn, the more you understand, that's why I love this job is not about the acclaim or the going to the theater and seeing your name and lights. It's not about that. And if it is about that, you shouldn't be doing this job. Because what it's about is about, it's about connecting with people and learning how to tell a story with integrity and care. And that's a lifelong pursuit. So yeah, discussion, boys, I think made me a better filmmaker, and maybe better able to handle the challenges of this film through my way, or our way, because you can't make a film alone. And so Leslie and Clem are, you know, incredible climbers, and incredible director, and Leslie's an incredible producer. That's the other thing making a film is about the people you make it with. It's about the process, the product will be better if the process is done, great people,

Steve Fast

36:31

you spent so much time in Afghanistan, making at least two films. And as you mentioned, after this whole process, you moved back here to the United States, and you're in Los Angeles now, where there's so much of the film industry revolves around that area, what kind of adjustment did you have to make mentally to just continue doing your job and continue working in film, after having spent so much time and so much focus being a world away, really,

Sam French

36:59

it was not easy to come back from Afghanistan after living there for five years. And a lot of times, a lot of friends of mine would try to leave the country after being there for a few years, and they would come back, because there's something alluring about while aid isn't learning about Afghanistan itself. It's beautiful, wonderful country with wonderful people in it. But also being in a situation where a quote unquote, war zone, where it's conflict, and there's danger, and there's life and death, things happening. Every day, the world gets sharper, things get sharper, things get more important, it's feels that more important, it feels like every day you wake up, there's something that you can do. That's important, you know, and that I think, is very seductive. So yeah, it was really hard to come back to Los Angeles, where you would go to picnic with people, and they talked about the latest music they liked. I mean, I it was hard. And I gotta say, I didn't realize it at the time, but I definitely had some PTSD. So I think, for people listening with dealing with mental health issues, it's a real thing and get some help. It's talking to people, because that's how I got out of it. You know, I talked to some people got some help, and figured it out. And I think, you know, I'm in a really good place now. And I made the choice not to go back to Afghanistan, I think the thing about it is really, that you can externalize your issues like if I can win this battle in front of me, then I'll be fine inside, internally. Whereas I think the best way to do it is to walk through the world with the strength inside to look at you yourself. introspectively. And then look outward and an equal measure and exist in the world with your heart blown wide open, because a lot of times when you're in situations like you're in a war zone competition, you close down your heart because you need to survive. So I think that's the struggle as a filmmaker as a person I've been making, and I think my works better for it. I'm hoping that the next projects I'm coming out with will reflect that open heart even more.

Steve Fast

39:02

Well, Sam, thanks so much for taking time to talk to us about the film and about your experience. And I urge people to see the film if they have an opportunity. And if they are listening to this without the opportunity to see the screening that we'll have here locally. Where can they go to learn more about the film? Oh, that's easy.

Sam French

39:19

Just go to this Brett, that org and you can see all the information about the film. We'll have some big announcements soon. So join our mailing list. You can do that on this on the website this breath.org.

Steve Fast

39:34

Sam French is an Oscar nominated filmmaker he is co director of with this breath I fly a documentary that will be screening at Heartland Community College in May. If you're interested in other interviews about film, culture, or other topics, subscribe to random bits of knowledge on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you found this one. Thanks for listening

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