Education & Membership Committee Meeting January 10th 2025

    11:05PM Jan 20, 2025

    Speakers:

    Reilly (WCU)

    Keywords:

    handbook basics

    education coordinator

    membership coordinator

    WCU structure

    socialism definition

    capitalism definition

    intersectional solidarity

    political landscape

    private property

    steering committee

    communication channels

    forum post

    constructive criticism

    empathy

    critical listening

    code of conduct

    dialectics

    small words

    communal book space

    reading groups

    illiteracy rates

    vocabulary acquisition

    intellectual understanding

    communal library

    book accessibility

    zine distribution

    meeting productivity

    conversation roles

    membership coordinator

    education coordinator

    Okay, this is a meeting to work on WCU, one on one, slash handbook, basics, kind of stuff. Present is fesma.

    What are you? Hi, I am

    P What are you?

    I am education coordinator,

    and I am the membership coordinator. That's my title. It is January, 1020, 25 at 820 All right, we got that out of

    the way. All right.

    What are we doing?

    Do we want to plan out, like the the stuff that we want in the primer

    or, well, I think maybe first what we should do is pick a specific

    topic, right?

    So maybe we should bring up the the existing like handbook, stuff that we already did, that you and

    I work on. And then maybe we can, like, pick a subset of that as, like, a first lesson. I don't know Peter the education.

    I mean, that's why I was thinking

    of assuming, like, kind of as to, like, what the two been working on the handbook, which is something that I really had meant to like flying the hell out. But, yeah, I think I agree. I think that's the final way

    started this. Okay, I sent you guys a link to the to the working class community member handbook, version 0.2, for the recording, you can find the hand, the thing that we're working on, in the drive under WC. Remember handbook version

    here, but I'll also link it during

    the meeting. Oh, hold on, where we also had that the original handbook that we worked on with the glossary that could also be helpful for just like basics that we want.

    Where is it that we want to? Like definition?

    I think the glossary is at the bottom, but I don't know if we ever actually put anything in it.

    I don't think we copied it. Oh, okay.

    So, like one of the things, I think that would be a really useful first, I'm kind of split between two things, but one of them is getting everybody on the same page about what words mean. And the other one is, how is WCU structured, and how do, like, how does WCU work? Because I feel like that's like, one of the biggest sticking points for most people is they don't really understand how WCU works.

    The word thing is more of a you know, when we're talking to each other, we should, like, agree about, you know, if you say socialism, it means Whatever, and

    if you say capitalism, yeah, I think I both are equally as Important for new members and existing members.

    WC, structure, I

    I think maybe start off with structure.

    Sorry, I kind of lost my train that's what we were. EMF,

    well, I was saying that the two things that I think are probably the most urgent as far as like, things that we need to put out to like teach people about, would be teaching people. How WC is structured and how it functions like anything, yeah, or teaching them what we mean by certain words,

    yeah, okay,

    I'm just saying I agree with you guys are, I guess, the most, the two most prevalent as to, like, just getting the basic people on the same page, you know, just like, how does this work operate, and was powering defining things. How are you structuring and defining

    things? Because I know for a for certain that at least one or two people have very different definitions of what like socialism and like we're at. WCU is an explicitly socialist organization. It's in, basically in the title of WCU, not explicitly, but in our bylaws, it definitely is. And if we don't agree about what that means it, you know, it's been a little bit problem for sure.

    Well, I mean, even when we were looking on the handbook, it was, what was it? Intersectional solidarity. There was like, a dividing thing of like, oh, some people define it like this, and other people define it like this, or I define it like this, that would be nice to just,

    yeah, I this. The other thing is that I think that some people like, especially in the modern political landscape, people have like kind of politicized understandings of certain words instead of knowing like their technical meaning, I guess, because I know intersectional is definitely one of those Words that conservatives in particular don't know what it means.

    Well, I mean even something, even something even more basic, like capitalism, right? Yeah, I I've seen a lot of people that have been like, Yeah, I'm a capitalist, and then we'll describe what it is. And I'm like, that is directly opposed to what capitalism is, so you don't understand what you're talking about. I don't know if that's the case for anyone in the org, but even then, just being preemptive and making sure that we're on the same page, I

    know for a fact that at least one person in WCU has a definition of socialism that means capitalism.

    That's lovely.

    Pete, sorry,

    no, I just said.

    I was just saying as, like, interesting.

    Well, the thing is okay to me, right? If Okay, so I to me the like, ownership of the means of production and like private property are like, two of the primary components that make capitalism function, right? You can't, you can't have capitalism without private property, right? And you can't have private property unless you can have private ownership of the means of production, right, like individual ownership of the means of production. And I definitely know at the bare minimum, at least one person who I've talked to who thinks that you can have private ownership of the means of production, not just in a social society, but in a communist society, which really doesn't make

    sense. Oh yeah, that makes no sense. Um, yeah, okay. Well, I think we can combine the two honestly. I

    mean, if we are, like, seeking out to answer who is WCU, what do we stand for? At the end of it, we could just have,

    well, I think, yeah. So I think that, like, who we are is slightly different from how WCU is structured and how it functions, right? Because, like, the structure and function thing is like, Why does steering committee exist? Or, like, What even is steering committee? Who, who has the ultimate decision making power in WCU? How do you know how to how do you propose a or, how do you make a proposal? How does a side quest work? Right? Like those? Of the structure and function of WC, and that stuff is like not necessarily related to like. Both of those things stem from our underlying values, which I think is probably actually the main priority, but we haven't actually agreed on what those are yet, which makes the rest of this kind of difficult,

    yeah, I need to, I know Harpreet was asking everyone individually, what they want.

    Are we supporting? Sorry, when these are remote, are we supposed to post saying that we're having a meeting?

    Oh, are we see, okay,

    again, this is structure and functioning at WCU, and we already know how it works.

    Let me, let me, you post the bylaws.

    And I mean, I can post,

    I can post it just in case. Um, okay,

    steering, steering

    committee. Okay, here, I'll post it to the channel.

    Would that be a communication? Yeah,

    WhatsApp is the is our the WhatsApp and the forum are our official communications platforms.

    Communication channels approved by membership for discussing divisive business. These channels must be accessible to all members in good standing for the purpose of viewing and commenting. Which

    WhatsApp we voted on

    it at some point? Yeah. What is

    my name on here? Is it? No, that's not right. That's not right. Can when you guys look at my whatsapp. What's it called? Like? What's my name?

    Riley. Awake.

    Is

    it Rollo? WCU,

    no, I think they're writing WCU,

    okay, yeah, it won't let me tap

    myself. Yeah, okay. I mean, I

    see Rolo. WCU, oh, whoa. Well,

    best not. Probably modified my name at some point.

    Oh, I probably did, because you can, because,

    like, So Pete, like, on yours, yours, for me, says, Pete WCU, teach. Okay. And the end Peters is Peter WCU, ACP, right? So, like, that way I Well, when I first met you two, I didn't really know how to distinguish this, like, you were a

    teacher. Yeah, I just haven't

    bothered, like, I know you can change that. I just haven't bothered doing it for anyone since I just, I was just, it's like, oh, that's Riley. Just based off of the many times we've been talk together.

    I'm not gonna lie, when I first joined, I think the only name I changed was yours, Riley, because for the like me, I couldn't remember it. So every single time I would be like, Oh yeah, Harpreet or un oh shoot, what's his name? I would like to have to look through the forum or something. So I just changed your name to Riley so I could actually remember it. Okay. I

    keeping recording.

    Okay? I yeah, I don't know what the right way to do this, because I don't have since none of us know how to work the zoom and I'm recording via my computer. I can't We can't really do a zoom call, so I just told everyone that if they want to come, they can all add them to the call. I don't know if that's good or bad. Honestly, it's 830 on a Friday, the chances of anyone besides us and maybe Harpreet showing up is pretty minimal,

    yeah, well, plus, I mean, WhatsApp is one of the things that we voted and so even just calling on it would technically,

    yeah, so technically, so actually, technically, Zoom is not one of our official channels, which is. Funny, because we use it for all of our general meetings, but I'm pretty sure we never voted on it as an official channel. So, who? You know, whatever, whatever. Okay, so,

    yeah, between, I think, to like the whole definition, to getting everyone on the same page of terms and the WC W, see you structure and how it functions. In your guys's opinion, which one do you think is like, the 101? Or it goes before you could go before the other

    Pete. Do you want to go first? You want me to go first? I'd rather Sure. So I I think that as far as functioning of the organization. The structure of WCU is more important. But I think that if we want to be consistent about what we do with the functioning of the organization, that the definitions of the words that we use are and like, and also the underlying beliefs that inform those definitions and why, you know, like, why we believe those things to be I think that's more important. But those things are also not something that the three of us can decide on, like we can decide on that stuff for ourselves, independently of WCU, right? But as an organization, we really need everybody in the org to contribute to beliefs and definitions. You know, we can make proposed ones like, hey, that we propose that this is our adopted definition of capitalism and socialism, etc, etc. But, yeah,

    yeah, I that I agree with with everything you're saying. Riley, of just for me, it's like, yeah, just like understanding and like defining our terms is overall important to also understand the underlying structure as to like what we believe in, like what this or supposed to represent. But so those two things are intertwined. But as you're saying, it's these are also things that that the three of us, all three of us, can't, yeah, as you said, we can make proposals. We can't decide this on just three of us. Like, just like everyone Chima, except needs to be involved in their lead test. So like, do they, even if we offer definitions to certain terms, like, you know, like, some people may agree, some people may disagree, and, yeah, it's a whole, I

    yeah, I

    see it as just going to be a process,

    maybe What we can do since I do agree with you,

    maybe because I agree with you that if we write down specific terms that we want to find, it is quite biased. It's what we agree with rather than what the general like membership or what the org

    agrees with. So what we can

    do is we can put that on the back burner for now and make a forum post and then talk about it in the upcoming meeting as like something that we want to do for like the for education, please write down in like a this Google Doc or just on the forum, certain words that you think we should define,

    like ask for. We could solicit recommendations for, like, commonly used terms, yeah.

    And then people, we can add some of our own. And then people can trust one is,

    yeah. By laws. Hold on, let me read this.

    Yeah, like, here's the thing, is I okay real quick. So can we all discuss what Harpreet just posted in the chat? So he he says we should talk about steering, what we want to do with steering transparency, right? And then the next one is the bylaws require recordings with posts if steering reaches quorum, which we do, because we're, I'm pretty sure we're, yeah, yeah. I think it's actually, I think it's like five ninths or something weird, like that

    strange, strange ratio anyway.

    It's a, it's, I'm pretty sure it's a non standard fraction, anyways. And so he goes on for is, but it, I get you guys need a lot, but that is also the point of not having steering meeting a lot. But the thing is, like it, I actually think that that's a bad because, like this isn't a steering committee meeting, right? Just there's Yeah. And the thing is, like, if steering committee members are the most active members, there are going to be plenty of times when we do meet, and like, normal members are not involved. And uh, that's not necessarily relevant, sorry. So I, I think that we should be able to distinguish between a steering committee meeting and a meeting with a bunch of steering committee members in it, right? And like, admittedly, if we are meeting to working on WCU stuff, regardless of whether it's a steering committee meeting or not, if there's a quorum of steering committee, it should be recorded, just for transparency sake. But it shouldn't stop us from meeting, because it does seem counterproductive. Do Yeah, I don't

    know why there would be a cap on the amount of time steering.

    Could the idea is to prevent us from doing like backroom dealing, basically, and making decisions for the organization in,

    like, smoke builders recorded, right?

    Well, yeah, but even if it's but the thing is, like, so like, we didn't announce this meeting until, literally after it started, right? And so in theory, that means that people who might have wanted to attend can't attend, right? And so like, you know, if it was the city council and they met and they had just posted, posted, or they had just announced it, but they had started 10 minutes earlier, people would be like, Hey, what the hell the city council's meeting and they didn't tell us ahead of time, right? So like, I get, I do get that part.

    I get it. But then I would also argue that for the regular steering committee meetings, most of the general members don't know when they're happening. It's more like everyone individually, everyone in steering individually, gets a message and then it's on.

    Oh, I agree. Yeah, we have been really bad about announcing steering. I do kind of think a little bit that that second I'm not gonna say

    that. Okay, then we'll just, we'll just

    be, how about this go after this meeting, we need to have a steering committee meeting and a talk at the general meeting about what is appropriate for steering committee to do and what isn't

    Yeah, because then, for me, it just leads to the bigger question

    of, let's say, like,

    we didn't plan for it to be a steering committee meeting, right? It was, like, open to everyone, but only steering members are the ones that always show up. That's, yeah, this definitely the conversation, because I'm a little I'm a little confused, yeah,

    well, okay, so I sorry before I I kind of think that each of us should have our own because, like this, one of the ways to clear this up would be if there. Was a mentorship or a, sorry, a membership committee and a education committee and a treasury committee, right? And the thing is, like, if that were the case, then this would not be a steering committee meeting. It could be an education meeting or a secretarial meeting, or whatever, right? I

    get what you mean that? Yeah,

    I actually talked to Harpreet about this when I first joined, I was just like, I think everything would function a lot better, and we'd get more done if the committees were actual committees, rather than just one person and and I don't remember exactly what you said, but it was something along the lines of, one, we don't have enough people. And two, I think it was more like everyone should be doing everything in WCU,

    but Right? But the problem so that's the same thing he told me when we first started. Sorry, I don't mean to cut you off. The same thing he told me last year. And my problem with that, though, right, is that if that were, if that were true, then we wouldn't have steering committee. Yeah, like, we either need to abolish steering committee or create subcommittees so that we can meet and have it not be a steering committee meeting.

    We should very much back up again, because, honestly, this is something that I would like, I don't know. I also would like to see engage how the rest of membership feels about it, rather than just like one opinion, let me, let me. Write that down. Write that down About I

    then talk about okay,

    um, okay, so back to the original topic, I guess

    the primer, yeah,

    right. Technically, I think both of these things are your purview, so it's really up to you which one you'd like

    to start with. I guess, like for me, it's

    good question, because I you know what to start with. It feels always

    the hardest part

    chicken and the egg situation with these two. But I guess I lean towards like, just because I'm like, a English major, like word person, this like defining

    terms. Oh, I,

    I agree, and I have were already when, before we split the our current positions into two best when I were working on basically that exact thing. So I think you are 100% correct on that.

    Well, yeah, it is my Yeah, my observation, just even with what I

    like other experiences I've had as to like, if we all can't agree on a at least working definition on something, then I.

    Things are gonna stall, or like pretty fast, or like, there's, yeah, it's that much harder to get things done. Yeah? So yeah, that that's where I'm leaning. But yeah, I

    I do wonder if starting the process of defining terms is going to cause like internal debates within the org.

    I hope it does honestly, we should be something

    that we talked about. I kind of

    think that these are the things that we should have been talking about before WCU grew. Because, like, the thing is, like, we have grown. We have probably tripled in size since we started, maybe more and and this, the thing is, like we were kind of, it was kind of unclear. We were still kind of writing the coattails of Bernie Sanders at that point, which is kind of sad when you think about it, because it was like four, four or five years later. And so it was. It was a little unclear what the, you know, it was vaguely like, Hey, we're a lefty, or he's like, explicitly socialist, but we didn't describe what that meant in any way, really. And I, I think that, I think that because we opened our doors to everyone without, without explicitly stating who and what we like we are and what we believe, right? We that we may have attracted a a wider audience than is like practical. I mean, in theory, we could resolve like a big tent sort of issue, but then we'll just end up like the Democrats, right, like with a alliance that doesn't work because the two like, for like the, you know, one side of the party doesn't agree with the other side of the party. And I would rather not be that way. I would rather be a relatively cohesive, you know, obviously everybody has disagreement, but like, you know, relatively cohesive on with our underlying values, and then work from there.

    I Okay, so we want to start off with

    the turn Correct.

    Yeah, I think

    so that saved here.

    Okay, cool, we've agreed, amazing. So do we, do we want to, do we want to continue working on the points of unity then? Or do we want to make, or do we want to, like, start the glossary for the handbook.

    Okay, in,

    yeah, probably, and then what we can do just so it is open to all other members.

    Oh, I think the glossary is easier, because the handbook is going to have a bunch of words that aren't particularly contentious, right? Like, what is responsibility mean? Or, what does steering committee mean? Or, like, you know, what is a committee? What's a working group? Right? Those things are probably less politically contentious than like, what is socialism? So it might be easier to work on that and then, but, but is but is that like an education thing that we're gonna teach people, or is that just like a resource?

    Personally, I think that this is a conversation that should be had when new members join, just so we are all in agreement when they come in during meetings, everyone is on the same page, rather than us having to be like, Oh, well, you should check the resources, because I think your definition of socialism is incorrect. But again, I would like to hear your guys' thoughts. I.

    Yeah, I you bring up a good point that's not like, because same with Friday, I do believe that it is like, for me, I think it is healthy to have, like, obviously, like, internal debates, like, especially when it comes to stuff like this, you know, and I'm just coming at this from, like, the educator point of view, is that, like, I, you know, like, I want my students to like, to like, ask questions, to even challenge some of the things I'm saying to them, Because I don't want it. This is the experience I often feel, at least in the education system, of like, teaching students something, never quite getting that respect, even when I'm like, kind of actually hoping you know, not that you know, just because I want to see that you're thinking yourself and like, you know, I want people, you know, like, in this org, for all of us to like, at least feel comfortable expressing their thoughts. But kind of what to go back to what you're mentioning, of I also like, you know, making sure that we, when doing this, we don't come across as like the example you were giving, like we're being, I guess, condescending to people who, Even if we don't agree with their definition, or even feel like it's slightly wrong, like, how do we navigate that without

    Making something like worse as to potentially developing a schism, or something as to like that that's just like, I guess, like a worry I have, even though I do think it's like, we do need to Have more arguments, in a sense, ones that don't devolve into like, destructively, though.

    Yeah, yeah. I agree with you. I do think that critical thinking is something that has never nor is it a priority in most of our education system, it's just curious what this means, and don't question it. Maybe, maybe then we can just start thinking about these are just my thoughts, and let me know what we can just start thinking of words that we want to define. We can define them in like a separate dot, and then we could have like a social event, or some sort of like education event where it's just we are. We all come together and, like, define words as a group, right? We can make bullet points of like, oh, Tanner was like, we talked about socialism. Tanner said this, this and this, right. And then this person said this, this and this, right? And then we just compile that so there is a space for us to debate it out. Because I do think that it is very I think it's a good thing to debate, especially when it comes to definitions that are tied to ideologies. And it can be, it could be seen as condescending, to be like, Well, you're wrong. Here's our definition, and this is the correct definition, as opposed to yours.

    Wait, sorry, what could, what could we what? How? I'm sorry. It could be descending how to whom

    I I'm just trying to think. I'm trying to put myself in someone's shoes, let's say someone who, let's say I'm the person who has a different definition of socialism, right? So that looks like, or I think that I agree that capitalism is bad, but my definition of it is different. I. Um, maybe if I were to see someone just being like, we decided that these are the definitions, even though, like, you know, all terms have definitions. It's not just like feelings, but I could see it as like, oh, that's being condescending. They might think that they I don't know, like,

    I mean, I understand what you mean. Like, I could see, like, if we went into so instead of, let's, let's say, instead of the community that we went into to do tenant union or tenant organizing, right? Let's say that we went into, like a predominantly black neighborhood, right? And we went there and said, Hey, here's our definition of socialism or of intersectionality or something, right? And there, but there are local groups that have slightly different definitions of socialism, slightly different definitions of intersectionality or liberation or whatever the word is right. I could see them thinking, Hey, what's this outside group coming in and like, telling us how to I could see that right, but, but I would also argue that, like, our definition should just be for us as an organization, right? It shouldn't we? I don't necessarily think that we should be like, telling other people outside of WCU, hey, you have to believe this thing, that that's just like what we think, right? And if you like what we think, you can join us. And don't like what you think, you don't have to join us, but we'll still help.

    Yeah, I'm also big, except part of this, part of my thoughts on the conversation about intersectionality. I do think like there's bound to be debates, right? And if someone does have opposing views, it is better for it to be like talked about beforehand, rather than rewrite it, and we're like, this is the definition, and then having the debate afterward, because then that to me, that could,

    yeah, okay, so, but so I think my only disagreement with that is that, especially online, Right? You have to create your definition and write it down to even have the debate in the first place, right? Like we for us to even internally to WCU, for us to disagree with someone, we have to have presented them with our definition in the first place, or they would have to present us with the definition in the first place. What? First place, one or the

    other, chill, but, well, I mean, I agree with you 100% I do think, though, that we are three members of, specifically, of steering committee, right? And this is this is something that should be talked about with general membership and just everyone before we do. And I do see that like in order for people to disagree right, there has to be a definition of something to disagree on in the first place, so that's why I'm saying maybe we can do a we can do a forum post again, like you're the educational coordinator. So I If you disagree, or if there's something that you want to do, please let me know. I'm not trying to overstep in any way. But that's why I'm saying we can do a forum post and like, ask for people. Like, ask people what definitions they want cleared, or what things they find, like difficult, or whatever. Since this is going to be representative of WCU,

    I will, I will make one sort of minor critique to that right, which is that after a year of using the forum, what I know about the forum is that basically nobody uses the forum, right? So, like, if we make a forum post saying, Hey, we would like you to contribute to this. There's a small chance that people will contribute to it, but high probability is that, like, maybe the three of us will say something, and like, maybe the other members of steering committee will say something, but then basically, everybody else in WCU won't contribute in any way. Well,

    forum post, along with talking about it during a general meeting, right? Because we can give, like, some discussion, because I agree with you, pretty much, the people that are on the forum aren't either hearing or it's something that they're like interested in, right? Like, yeah.

    So. So if

    we give some time during the next general meeting to, like, talk about it and discuss it, even just a little bit, and then being like, okay, there's a forum post, please add. I don't know who's going to add, but at least we did. And then if we want to, we can follow it up with, like, one on ones, but, yeah, I don't know the whole thing is a little

    so I actually think that that's a better the second half what you said, or the second part of that is better, as far as like, if we want to get people's real opinion about what they think about these terms that we like, maybe what we should do is come up with a term, a list of terms that we want to define, right? Make a forum post we, as the three of us, right? Should come up with tentative definitions, not post those tentative definitions.

    Right? Yeah.

    Then the three of us to the obviously, within capacity, right? Try to have one on one, or, you know, two on one in general, right? Those numbers with one hearing number, or whatever, something like that, where we are. Try to if they elicit from them, their feel, their understanding of what these

    words mean. Okay, I mean, I like that. Obviously, the one on ones or the two on ones or whatever those types of things are the ones that work best. I think I forum post to me was just like, that's something that grew that we agreed on would be the go to for all the information. So we probably should post something about it on there. No but I do agree that we should have a separate document with our own version of like, with our own definitions, so that if there is a like, if we do have a discussion, or whatever ends up happening, we have something to present. And then if someone disagrees, then we can, like, talk it out.

    Pete it if, if this was like an education environment instead of a WCU environment, and there were potentially contentious ideas that needed to be discussed and like and you wanted to get people's real opinions from them, but not like, taint their perspective or accidentally, like, like, unintentionally coerce or persuade them into thinking something just because you happen to have a position of power or whatever? How would they do that?

    That's a really good question. I'm trying to think of like, trying to think of an example, or like scenarios to have that funny out, say in the class, like with the classroom, that's

    a good question. What would be? I mean, maybe if you had to, like, discuss feminism or something in a modern I mean,

    I guess I can, as actually figure example,

    similar to that, like,

    albeit, like At my school,

    the ethnic studies teacher, you know,

    he's he did, like a panel for his students. I was actually on the panel, because the panel was like, you know, the teacher, he was asking for people on staff, who you identify as part of like the LGBTQ community in some capacity, if they felt comfortable to do the like I was part of it, because I felt like I had a unique experience kind of

    also bring the light lecture known groups and experiences, but you know that can also be like a touchy subject, especially depending on a. Us to some students, like family background, as to like, or their own personal feelings about like, queerness in general.

    Yeah, it was fine and I and the and I think,

    yeah, I'm trying to think, like, you know, like nothing contentious happened. And I think, I think a big part of that was just like, I

    well now I'm trying to see how to relate this to What we're

    talking about.

    I think it's just like I

    at least in this example, just like the exposing children, like you, students to different ideas, like beforehand, but also, like laying them down. In this case, like, okay, like, there are you have, like teachers and like other staff who identify differently. To, how do they identify? Yeah, I don't know. There's not like, one single way, I guess, as to like, how do you like, preempt potential content should like, potential contention that might happen with like students who will like, say, like, refusing them something. Because, like, in this case, they might find it like, in their view, morally objection, objectionable, or like, don't believe that.

    I think,

    I guess it's like my school has like a social contract thing. So it's also just like shadowing people a baseline of respect that, I think was also, like, put plays into that. So I know,

    I guess, like, there's a lot of different factors at play, because it's like, we can have disagreements, say, like, on

    the words we're trying to refine, but like, I guess for me, it's like, I want to make sure that it never, like the balls into us, you know, you know, essentially telling each other to fuck off. Yeah, well, that's yeah, just as we're mad about, like, a particular word, like, I find that, you know, like, literally crazy, like that. It's like we're, we're yelling at each other because of, because of because of, like,

    because of words, yeah,

    the literal conflicts, like, historically have starred just because of that. So

    that is the kind of things I'm a little bit worried about, right? Is that people do get, you know, idealism is a strong current in America. People get very touchy over ideas and think that they're more important than material reality all the time.

    Yeah, it's just like, I guess,

    I guess, going back to the example I was, why I was bringing up, was also just like, Yeah, even if like students have qualms, say with like things like queer identity, like that, gender identity, identified as gay, or, in my case, asexual, it's like even if they have like private qualms about that, at least dumb recognizing like this is like a human being that I like trying to help you learn. I think I don't know. I guess like trying to reiterate that, okay, we're all people coming from perhaps. Different, like places, or different starting points as to, like, how we are defining these terms. It should never like, I, you know, it shouldn't be like. We shouldn't be disrespecting one another, you know, that's at least like, you know, in terms of, like, the base, like, where, you know, I don't want anyone to feel uncomfortable like as we're just delving into these topics that could potentially bring up like some contention as we're debating those

    I'm I'm trying to, I'm trying to think back to Some of the like, the dates that we had in school, because I my teachers specifically like my history and English teacher would always have, like, open discussions. We would do current events, and then we would have open discussions afterward. And Well, first and foremost, I do want to echo over what you were saying, Pete about there has to be some baseline of like, there has to be an understanding amongst everyone before even engaging in These like, conversations of not just respect, but also you have to meet people where they're at right because different the way that the environment that you grew up, the way that you were taught just everything has to do with, like, People's ideologies or even the definitions of things. I'm wondering, because if I'm thinking back to, like, the debates that I've had in

    school, they would turn it quite heated,

    and they it did sometimes get to points for people that, oh, I don't talk to him because of what he said in history during that one conversation, right? Like, we don't agree ideologically, I can't talk to him. And the biggest issue to me was like, we would talk for a bit, and then it would be like, the end of time. And then there was no like closure. There was no like. We didn't come up with a what's the word I'm looking for?

    What? There was

    no conclusion. It was just as end of time. That's it. Now, yeah,

    well, conclusion, resolution,

    yes, resolution. There was no resolution of the conversation from class, which I think just made it worse for I

    now there's a lingering particularly towards students who say have like, things got brought up. There's no real resolution. Now, there's like, a lingering design people like,

    well, but that was that because they didn't continue the conversation, or was that because the people after the conversation were unrelenting?

    I think it was both. I think there was a like, Well, we were also kids, right? So it was just like, oh, they said this. They must be a bad person. There's no point in even trying to continue the conversation outside of

    the adults at that point to like, mediate future conversations.

    The you would think, you would think my history teacher was a very interesting, low key racist guy. So it really, I don't think he really there. Yeah, it's always a history, and polycythe always but yeah, so I agree with you, it is on the note. Well, I mean, in this case, it is on us to, like, think preemptively about how to go about that. Yeah, and I also think it was just a lack of time, and when there are a lot of people that are in a group or are discussing, you don't necessarily have the time. Time for as much time as we would like to raise your hand and respond, because obviously we don't want it to be like a one v1 right? Or a 3v one type situation, yeah, I don't know. These are good questions, though. This is definitely something that we have to think about. Because I agree with defeat that it seems kind of crazy to like fight over words, but at the same time, it makes sense that people would fight over words, especially if they're linked to ideologies.

    Well, it makes sense if we're going to act based on the definition of those words, right? Because then those ideas translate into material action, right? So something that actually affect you,

    and it's kind of a I guess, games, if you do games, if you don't like, there's the there's the risk of, you know, there's always going to be that risk, whether we actually define our terms or don't like, if we don't find our terms, there's a risk. And I think the greater risk of, just like, well, we're all just like, I guess I'm just thinking of like, the story of the Tower of Babel. Now we're all kind of like, we're all kind of just in our own echo chambers can't agree on something, and it's splitting the org rather than bringing us closer. But as we're defining your terms, there's going to be like, there's going to be like, the big potential struggle as we try and define it, it's just up to us as to like, how, you know, in terms of like we need to do a you know, be thorough in mediating that. So it

    evolved into you know,

    into yelling at each other. Yeah,

    I do think that it is also important to have to get before getting into these going into these conversations that people sometimes have different steps. How

    do I discuss I describe

    this for ideologies? People have different steps that and then come to a or people have steps and come to a conclusion, right? And whether their steps are different or their conclusion is different, doesn't necessarily mean that you 100% are like opposed to each other, because that's because of how polarizing everything is in the West, in the US specifically, it's very easy to be like, Oh, you disagree with me on this. I can't work with him anymore, or we won't get along.

    Yeah, you're bringing up something that is yesterday, Riley was just asking me my thoughts on sex work, particularly mentioning that someone without getting names, because I don't need to know that like someone in the org having a different feeling about it that I, I would argue, is a bit simplistic, but that doesn't but I don't think I said this to you right at the time in my messages, but that that doesn't necessarily mean I disagree whole wholly with that person. There's probably I can actually probably see certain intersections where I might actually agree on other points as to like. So it's just like, Yeah, I mean, this is like, you know, being in education, there's this level of patience that even if, especially with I'm not even talking about students, I'm also talking about just other teachers or staff who I know for a fact I'm not 100% like, obviously ideologically in line with, but you know, I have to work with them, and I. You know, just like, yeah, that's, that's something I'm constantly, constantly running into, as to, like, you know, just seeing where I actually do agree with this person, and then, like, completely, I uh, just because I'm aware of why you disagree with them. Like, I don't want to be like, dismissive off the bat, because at least, like, you know, I mean, I generally get the sense and, you know, obviously with students, because they're younger, it's like, you know, there's a limit there. There's more limited like experience as to like worldview, perhaps, that that's a little easier to like, understand, or like as to like, okay, like, they're like, they're way off, I would say, but like, I can see why they would think this way. Or their heart, their heart is in the right place. Yeah, I don't think they're taking this in a malicious or like so I said that this is just how they were brought up. Or

    I actually feel that way about a lot of adults. I could people have a tendency to give children a lot of leeway. That's I

    was thinking that in my

    head, I said, I don't want to just say like children, because I I've talked to, have met with children who I've had more intellectually stimulating conversations than adults. So it's like, you are right, yeah,

    but I also think that people don't give adults enough like I think people assume that because an adult has, like, a job and is responsible for themselves, that they also have the knowledge and have taken the time required to actually really understand why they believe the thing that they believe, right? Yeah, exactly. I don't think it's true at all. I think most people don't know why they I think they just were told these are the things that you ought to believe, or had some anecdotal experiences along the way, right and now have a set of beliefs that are incoherent. In fact, at least,

    yeah, and I would say for like children, you know, there are actually more responsive, in a sense, because at that time

    you are

    questionable, physically, literally, just better at learning than adults are. Yeah,

    as adults, it, you know, you're a lot of people, you kind of get like, I guess, after a certain point, which is, though I don't, yeah, I think a lot of people just had like, they locked into something in terms of like ideologically, or just like culturally, as to like, Okay, this is how I was raised, or even If they go past that to some extent, you know, I think about this with myself, you know, as to like, I've moved away from more like, I guess, like, typical kind of more liberal positions, and move further to the left, But like, I still see, like, in terms of how I was raised, then, you know, things I brought up with, like, still retaining certain ideas or thoughts just because that is that is difficult to, like, fully get away From, because it's also scary to think of, like, Okay. In a sense, like, Okay, I have no boring now as to like, what if I, if I were to do that? I guess, like, I think that's at least fear that reminds

    me of, I think one of the books that we might want to read. Eventually is capitalist realism, by Mark Fisher, because it goes into a lot of the like, I have a feeling that a lot of people in WCU already kind of understand the ideas that are in capitalist realism. But it basically talks about how people assume that the status quo is the only way things can be. An alternative is doomed to failure, basically,

    yeah, and we see that, I guess, in a microcosm, through our own familial, cultural, political, like educational upbringings as to like what we were taught by our parents are our teachers, like at our schools, like you know that's like us upholding fast flow as to how we experienced it growing up. And it takes a lot of takes a lot of inner reflection and just like critical thinking, to really step out of that and to realize, like, Okay, do I truly believe these things, or is it just because I was told these things, and because that's like, because, whether that's just because, like, that helped me secure a job easier, like, or whatever it No, Yeah, that's like, I have read capitalist realism. I know that that would be a on the sports side. So

    yeah, it would be relatively easy to go through. I was

    gonna say I also read capitalist realism, and I read group I know there's a book that I'm starting to read called spectacular capitalism. But is

    that like? Is that like a expansion on guy to bores idea about the like society of the spectacle or something, um,

    I don't know. I haven't really gotten so far in it, but it more it talks about, based on what I read so far, it's talking about like, our ideas of, like, capitalism being a certain event, or a certain, like era that we go into is wrong, right? Or that it's something outside of us is wrong, right? Like it's just been, it's even a part of our identity at this point. So it's, it's just talking about, like what capitalism actually is, how it affects people, how people view it, all from the people know how it is, back to the topic about like before, though, I think, to me, I think of adults as children that are just Bigger. I think they deserve the same leeway, especially because as you get older, the ideologies, your thoughts, your beliefs, especially when you were younger, start to get more and more cemented, right? And you don't question something, what is a cemented part of your identity? My question, then, is right? I understand that we right. The three of us. Understand that you should meet people where they're at right, and you should just because there's some disagreements, doesn't mean that, like you guys fundamentally disagree.

    How do you teach someone that, or how do you

    go about saying that? Because I know specifically had I that like patience and understanding that, like people come from different backgrounds and that, though I may not agree with the views I see why they have them, that was something I had to learn. And if I had talked to some people I don't know even two years ago, the way I went about that conversation would have been a very, very, very different way than I would say, yeah, how does one go about that? Especially with I

    actually was kind of thinking that maybe we are even, like, a little bit too advanced on 101, thing that maybe earlier in the conversation, I was thinking when you were talking about this stuff, maybe the thing we do need to start on is just. The empathy, compassion and, like, critical listening and self criticism kind of thing. I

    think I would second that. I think that's kind of what I was, the example I was giving at my school about the panel I did, just like, I think that's but like in general, I think that's just at least what I was taught in terms of, like, how to teach that. That's like

    a PDF. So I, I sorry. I actually think that we can combine this idea into how WCU works. Yeah. Because I yeah, sorry both. You can go ahead. I didn't mean to cut the beat off,

    so I apologize for that, but I just wanted to quickly say that I think it's a good idea to start with that, not only because it's the basics and is legitimately the foundation that everything else will be built on. But also, I've had many conversations with both you Riley and Harpreet about, you know, doing talking, we don't have a lot of criticism within the org, right? I don't know if it's because people aren't opposed to some of the things that we're saying or they are scared to talk about it, and because a lot of people think that, like criticism will lead to resentment or anger or some sort of fight

    in real life, I have definitely, I did a crit self crit session with me and my friends and My girlfriend at one point, like in high school, and if you are not prepared emotionally,

    and also, if you are, if you don't know how to phrase things in a way that is that minimizes the impact that You have on someone else's ego, it can just go destructive.

    Yeah, well, I mean, ego is a huge thing. I think criticism and self criticism is such an important thing, especially when it comes to growth, whether it's individual growth or the growth of the org. But I do agree with you, if you don't know how to take criticism, or if you don't know how to phrase your criticism, it can actually be very, very harmful.

    Also it they can end up turning into struggle sessions, or does not feel like, where? Like, okay, because the three of us are talking right now, right? And if there was somebody in in WCU that we didn't like, we could be like, Hey, why don't we have a criticism session of blah, blah, blah of this person, right? And then get everyone just whip everybody else into a frenzy, right? So, like, there are definitely potential drawbacks to having those kind of conversations.

    And also, if we were to do a crit self, crit again, I can take criticism. I'm okay. I don't take it personally. And also, with some people, I understand that this criticism is coming out of a genuine care for the work that we're doing, or a genuine care for me as an individual. But I don't know if everyone in the org would be comfortable if we go around individually, because that's the only fair way to do it, like just going around and being like, okay, my your turn self crit, and then everyone will criticize you. I don't know how many people are comfortable getting criticized by like, Yeah, well,

    um, I mean, I, I would be down to do it, but I definitely think it like, it would be uncomfortable, even for the people who are okay with it. Well,

    of course, but because I'm thinking about it, that would be the only or maybe I I should think outside the box. But

    to me, if it weren't that way, and I

    understand how uncomfortable it is, but if we were to just like, raise our hands right? And then all just randomly, by by chance, everyone has a critique of you rightly, that won't really feel good. You know what I mean? At least everyone should criticize,

    I will say. But the only issue with that is that, like so let's say that one person does get a lot of criticism the next person gets because you're required to criticize at that point, the next person, even if everybody does criticize them, might just get criticism. That's kind of like, you know, a non, yeah, whatever, right? And it ends up being the same situation, yeah, I think

    I don't know if I said it to you. Riley, maybe it was. Harpreet about, like, at least at my last job, like, a model for, like, constructive, like, criticism that I thought was useful. Like, we called it 360 feedback, in the sense of, like,

    you know, we're all there, but like, we're but like, we're,

    you know, I'm not sure how, how it would work with us, since we're all not necessarily, especially during generals, like some of us may be online and in person like, so I'm not sure how to quite implement this in terms of how some of our meetings go, but like, at least this model, it's basically Like, you know, a group of people, two of them

    will

    it basically, you break off into two, like, into a pair, and like, you know, you offer, you know, obviously it's not just constructive, but also, just like, you know, also making A positive, I guess, kind of over here in the over here you were saying, like, I guess, like, fear of, like, say, kind of what you were saying that, like, let's all, like, raise our hands or whatever to as if someone has, like, a criticism for Riley, like seeing everyone do that all at once, feel very intimidating, whereas it's like one person at a time, you know as Like, switching off from people, and it's also much more, not necessarily private, because everyone's giving their thoughts, but it's a lot more individualized as to rather than where it's like you who is receiving the criticism can also see, start reflecting and seeing the patterns as to okay, like more than one person has given me this criticism, but also I could see like these positives, and maybe also noticing what may have been left out from your own like, maybe what your expectations were, yeah, that's at least, like, I never, at least from my experience, because I had done it a few times over the course of a couple of years, I never saw it. I thought it worked fairly well as like, I never saw great contention. Of course, that's just from, just from my personal experience. So it's like, I can only go that far, but I like, I, I like, I found it helpful, at least as to like, just for myself, as to what people thought I could say, do improve upon, do better, but also people also acknowledging what they thought I was doing A good job at. So it's not like I'm Yeah,

    so I'm not feeling like

    attack or Yeah, like a whole person who does, yeah,

    yeah, yeah. That's like, that's what I'm hearing remote view as to like, just like, how again, I'm not sure how. Well, I guess you know us as hearing committee members, there's more obviously, like criticism we can, like, take and receive, because we are, like, more active within the war. So it's like, I don't know. I

    will, I will make a little critique, like a little caveat there, right? Which is that if we are trying to ensure that the people who because, like, we're trying to make it so that steering committee isn't really that much different from the general membership, like the minimum amount possible right and the places that they do have authority, that authority is checked by transparency or whatever right. If that is the case, then the people who join steering committee should not have to be. Especially tough or smart or cases or whatever right like they probably will be just because those people, people will tend to

    elect but like you know, I agree that we should be more

    ready to accept criticism right on mass, but like the people engagement should be, have to have, like a fixed need to do it. But yeah, necessarily,

    you can go,

    I was just gonna say, I do

    agree with what both of y'all are saying, but I also understand what Pete is saying, because as a steering committee member, you are doing more work right in getting stuff done, or, I don't know, yeah, yeah, doing more, so therefore you are putting yourself out there for more rather than someone that shows up To the meetings. Yeah,

    that's kind of what

    I was yeah, that's kind of what I'm kind of going off of what you're saying. Because when that's, like, why I was, I guess getting at of just, well, you know, like, in terms of, like myself, you know, just as to, like, kind of just starting with the org, just kind of getting, like, a feel for it as and also kind of like, you know, over time, just seeing whether this is a fit for me, or, like, whether I want to continue with it as, you know, really case with anything I was doing that with a book club a while ago as well. Not sure. Well, you know, just as to like, Am I willing to invest more time and energy and that I'm now in the position of being like a steering committee position as to like, I think that's at least like, I do agree with what you're saying. Because I'm like, willing to be more open in a position doesn't necessarily mean someone who takes up this position has to be like, I guess, like, thick skinned as to like, because, I mean, like, I going back to my old job, and I'm friends with some people coworkers are like, Well, I take up other bigger leadership positions. And like, you know, I'm not saying they can't handle criticism, but you know, like I would say more. I mean, I see myself as a sensitive person, but like I would like people who identify as say more, like sensitive and like,

    yeah, like,

    yeah, like, I do agree that being like,

    buying this,

    I'm trying to think of how to phrase this, but like being fixed in the vast criticism isn't like a requirement to do this job. I think is just like, from my experience, though, just like being like in education, being in leadership positions that's like teaching students is like pedestal. You're gonna attract

    a lot of attention, so

    and criticism, some, obviously, a lot of time is not really being criticism, but just like, not my current school, but like at my old school. Like, you know, this didn't happen very often, but just like being insulted by students, yeah, criticism, but just like insult. It's like you do have to. I think the more you're in the leadership position, the more you do have to,

    yeah, yeah.

    Just you become

    a little more

    resilient to that stuff, ideally, at least, yeah, yeah.

    I go ahead. Sorry, I

    do actually think that in the territory of organizing right and then trying to mobilize or convince people there, you do have to have a certain or maybe you don't. This again is just my opinion. You do have to have some sort of,

    I don't think, backbone if you

    are going to hear or like encounter a lot of people who are opposed to your views or opposed to what you're doing, or think your strategy or tactics are are bad, I will say, though, that I think that in order for us to have good, constructive criticism, and no one is attacked within the org, there does have to be a foundation of trust to begin with, yeah, because if a random person, or like someone that I barely talk to would be like, Hey, bessema, I Don't think you're doing enough, I would be like, okay, but you also don't know me. So where is this coming from, right? Versus if it was someone that, like, I know there's that foundation of trust, or at least that there is a care for a project that we're working on, which is where this criticism is coming from, then I could understand, like, Okay, well, I value your opinion, so please tell me, like, more, what can I fix? Yeah. Plus, I think criticism is something that we ourselves, that people within the org should get comfortable with, just because, if we want to grow, right, if we want to grow as an or growing not in like numbers, but growing as in like, geez, my mind just Fried.

    Just can't. We can I can't. Sorry, sorry, finish what you're saying.

    Sorry I didn't for us to because what I've noticed is that there have been a lot of things during focus campaigns, for example, that either I have had, like criticism of or other people have, but it's not said until at the end of the campaign, or till it's like, too late to actually like fix or like redirect the route that we're going. And to me, the only way to solve that is, if we do create a culture within the org of like, not only can we take criticism, but we can, they obviously good faith criticism, not like, Oh, you're so lazy, you're not doing enough, you're not showing up. Blah, blah, blah, that's yeah, not just like hurtful things, but to me, that's the only way that we'll actually grow.

    So okay, so maybe what we should do is under in the handbook, under responsibilities of membership, right?

    Maybe we can make a document that is on the topic of how to talk to each other in a constructive way, while also being able to criticize ourselves and each other, you know, without feeling getting off the rails or whatever. And then maybe we can make a, maybe we can hold a, ideally in person, meeting that where we practice that.

    I yeah, I think it would be easy if we started off by, like, teaching or or, I don't know, having some sort of like presentation or a job to go back to, and then practicing criticism, not even towards each other, but just in general, right? Constructive criticism, practicing that, and then later on, moving towards the you. Like, but

    even to practice criticism, you have to have real criticism, right? Because the person responding to the critique can't, can't really respond, unless it's something that they know the they know the ins and outs of or that they know the way that they failed or didn't fail, or, you know, whatever, because otherwise the person was like, if you have like, Alice and Bob having a conversation, and Alice is Bob a criticism that's not a real criticism of something that Bob has done, then Bob's response is not. He has no don't have the information to respond in a way that's like coherent or makes

    sense. But my thought, I agree with you. But my thought was, if the way we introduce it, like we introduce it and then it's immediately, Riley, I think that you're you. Your socks are Mitch misma. There's something wrong with you, right? Because people think that that's how like criticism is. Like starting it off with an example of it doesn't even need to be someone within the org. You could criticize whatever you want, and that can be an example, right?

    Oh, that's a good idea of criticizing somebody that we all know. But I mean, like, public, like someone public,

    exactly, so we, if someone is like, I think Trump is dumb, right? Then

    that, like, play devil's advocate kind of thing,

    yeah, exactly. Then or, or, we could just be like, Okay, that is a criticism, but that's not constructive, right? And that could be hurtful if you were talking about someone within the org. So let's work on it.

    I was also a bad example. It's like, I would say counterproductive. Like, is a word I would use as to like, yeah, it doesn't produce anything substantial. Like, I guess that's like, what I would want to, like, emphasize at least like, the criticism we're looking for is like, how's this going to make us like better than the Oregon to ourselves as to like, what we're doing as to like, I can't be a more effective education coordinator on getting like, saying like, Oh, Pete Sachs, or like, are like, you know, I like, if it's not like, real substantial, like ideas or suggestions for improvement, yes, it's like, so

    real quick I make a I'm going to make a document that I guess I'll title How to have a conversation, maybe, or how to because, like, there are some like, easy things that we could put in this kind of document, right? Yeah, there are. There are some things that people don't even realize. They think when they're coming into a conversation, like, I know people, like most people, claim that they're open minded, but I think that, in reality, the majority of people don't really want to hear other people's political views. They really just want to prove that they're right. You know, in their

    own view, yeah,

    right, exactly. And they also people have a strong tendency towards mind reading, towards thinking they know why the other person thinks what they think or what they're thinking before the person has even had a chance to express themselves and and and I think the most critical one to this, to this, as relevant to this, is that most people don't know why they think the things they think right. Yeah, you know, people have a feeling that something is right or wrong, but they don't know the logic behind why it's right or wrong, and therefore they believe a bunch of contradictory things. And when you confront them with those contradictions, their brain goes, Oh, no, no, no, no, I'm right. And then they, you know, get defensive or whatever.

    Yeah, personal

    attack. Yeah,

    even if it's like, I

    felt like, I

    definitely felt like that at times, even if part of my brain is also like individuals like, I don't like, I can't like, effectively explain. Everything that I believe or like in this moment, like why I believe,

    I will also say

    that I actually agree that we should start it off with how to have conversations. Because, along with what you were saying, Riley, I have also noticed that even if someone agrees, right? Even if two people agree, if someone asks them, I've noticed, and I've had, I had a conversation with one of my friends recently, and they're the type of person that if someone's like, oh, I don't like, I hate capitalism, right? So ask them, okay, well, what do you mean by that, right? Or what is your definition of that? And sometimes people take that as, Oh, you think you're better than me, or, you know more than me, or whatever, blah, blah, blah, or you think I don't know what I'm actually talking about. Because people aren't used to being not even questioned as in, like you're wrong, there's a gun to your head. But just like out of curiosity, I want to understand what you actually mean. And they take that very they take that to heart. They take it as like something personal against them. So yeah, I think just like a general, how to have conversations is very important, because, along with people think that they can read minds and assume they know what the other person in front of them is going to say. I think ego is a big thing when it comes to conversations, and if you do let someone speak through their thoughts, right? You have to, or especially someone who doesn't know why they think this way, and you ask them questions, they shouldn't feel like they're being personally attacked because you are asking questions or doubting their their ability to understand a certain thing. Yeah, that's something that I've noticed in a lot of conversations. And when my friend and I were talking about it, they have, like, a deep issue with a lot of people think that they're just putting them down by asking questions, rather than it just being kind of, if we're going to have this conversation, I need to see the baseline of what do you when you're saying capitalism? What do you mean when you're saying this

    term? I noticed this with myself a lot, and honestly, it's just because like me needing to, like connect. I thought to what someone said previously, but, but, you know, in terms of like, like, so and so, like talking to so and so that it's like, oh, you've brought up this, I think that is helpful in that you're also acknowledging that I, I'm listening to you, like that, like I even if I'm bringing up, like a say, like a criticism, or, like a slight disagreement with what that person said, at least like or even bringing up a question. I guess that's like one way of approaching, like, I'm not coming at you, like, aggressively or dismissively. I genuinely want, I guess, how I approach it, like, I generally want to hear more what you have to say. I guess I do that a lot with students, because it's like, I'm also trying to just like, you know, pick their brain, or trying to grab

    get them,

    like four people, trying to get them to talk more, you know? So it's just like, I'm I'm just trying to go off of, like, what you said this, and I'm just like, I'm just wondering, like, what you meant by that, or something like that. Yeah,

    I think with students, it's easier, because that is the environment that you're in, right? Like the students understand a learning environment, but outside of it, because now that I'm thinking about it, I understand why people take it as like a hostile thing, especially because education or knowledge is tied back to class, right? You could tie it back to the elite, and so maybe some people by questioning, by like you asking questions just coming from a genuine place of curiosity, they see it as like, Oh, are you doubting me and like, subconsciously, it's like a Oh, are you doubting that we are on equal footing? Or are you doubting that I am knowledgeable, therefore I'm. Of a quote, like lower class, but yeah, all this to say, I do think that starting off with like how to have proper conversations is really important, especially when it comes to not even just criticism, but like disagreements or just basic respect specifically, because it is in our code of conduct, right?

    It's, it's, it might be in the code of conduct. It kind of depends on whether we actually adopted the code of conduct or not. And I don't know if we actually ever did adopt the code of conduct. Lovely.

    Should be in the code of conduct. Yeah, it isn't a code of conduct that we have written, maybe not applicable to WCU yet, but either way, even if we do have a code of conduct, you know, obviously entity respect criticism would be something that would be in there. So it is important

    to, I think, that the original code of conduct talks about dialectics.

    Yeah, yeah.

    Which I mean,

    I would say that that's the right way, one of the right ways to frame it. I just, I am a little I do think that we should try and use small words as much as possible.

    Yeah,

    I think there's, I think there's a better

    way of

    getting the same point across without having to say dialectic, because that's, I don't know what the

    fucking word means, but

    yeah, because that's getting into a more philosophical like realm that I think we should like as much as I like to read and try and learn more about philosophy. It's like, that's, I, yeah, like, there's, like, there's a clear way of getting across the same point.

    You also don't want to if, since this organization is open to anyone that wants to join, it shouldn't be a thing of like, oh, you should feel intimidated because you don't understand what this word means, right? Like, we don't want to accidentally become elitist, right? Yeah, I

    think, yeah. I agree with you. Bezma, what you're mentioning before, before we even started recording about, like, a communal book space, yeah, like, we shouldn't, like, make people feel intimidated by like, certain words we're using, but at the same time, at least, you know, for me, it's like, at least having spaces I encourage like, if you are, like, interested curious about like, reading more stuff. Like, you know, at least enabling that sharing of knowledge, and yet this is, I think, also important. Well, I agree with you 100%

    I also think that it's, it is our job right to take the sentiments and the words of the average person, and connect that to the bigger picture that maybe you would need to read right, making those that simpler for the average person to like, understand or they don't Even well. I mean, ideally they should read it right. But again, I do understand that that is a very elusive thought, because, you know, there are everybody can read

    that is true, but it was a joke. Yes, no, yeah, it's although it is literally true.

    If United

    States has one of the highest illiteracy rates of any like western country, so, or any like industrialized company country in the world, so yeah and

    often, yeah, this is a point that as SWAT radio, yeah as to it's like, like, the distinction between not being able to read, like being completely illiterate, or just like being far below, say, like, I guess reading level. Happy level. Someone should be a particular age. I mean,

    now that we're kind of on it, there is the other point that, like, so like, I had an incredibly high reading level when I was in elementary school, but I barely read anymore, right? And like, one of the reasons that when we hold reading groups that I tend to want to read the book at the reading group, besides the fact that I know that other people aren't necessarily going to have time or the capacity to read it right, it's just easier to do than reading, like spending two separate sections of time reading and talking about something, right. Plus, you get to have people read to you, which is nice. I

    i and we talked about this before. I had the opposite. I had an incredibly low. I did not read, and in most of my old what are they called for? Like, most of my grades for, like, report cards in third and fourth grade, my biggest critique would be like, please read with Bessel. She needs to read her vocab acquisition or the amount of vocabulary words she knows. Very bad, and that's where I was

    before fourth grade, right in that same spot.

    That's where I was up until, I want to say way too long and embarrassing, an embarrassingly long time, but yeah, like, I, what I like about the reading groups is that, well, how, how they were structured, is that if you read it during also, because if you don't have time, it's like, okay, well, if you still want to join and you haven't read it, perfect, we'll go through it together. It that it makes it a lot more intimate, a lot less intimidating as well. For like too I had an inferiority complex for most of my life because I did not read much right, like if I were around people, or like people that read a lot of them too. I don't belong in this conversation. I'm just gonna stay silent like I nothing.

    Personally, kind of think that reading is like, while it is very important, I do think that it is slightly over emphasized in when people like consider what is and isn't intelligent, they think that reading is, like, hyper critical to that, and it does help, obviously, right? Because, like, there are lots of advantages to reading, but I think more importantly is being able to, like, understand and process information, like, quickly, but also be able to digest it over long periods of time, and then, like, synthesize information, those things

    can be way more important. I have met that have read a lot but digested nothing. Yeah, like, they can give me a list of all the books they read. And on paper, they're like, super they understand so much in reality, not really, but I also agree with you that I think we have a very narrow idea of what an intellectual or a knowledgeable person is, and it's not just reading, but yeah, I I do like the idea of something, like a communal library. Also, in the case of like, books are kind of expensive, you know, like, oh my

    god, access only.

    What were you saying?

    Sorry, I was just gonna say they're only getting more expensive as some imprints just getting rid of the vast market paperback model entirely.

    Yeah, a lot of a lot of the left wing presses, like, you know, aka press, or pm press, or whatever, right they use those old school, super cheap printing presses or machines, right? And the book you get is, you know, it's sturdy, but it's not the best material ever, but it's at least it's relatively cheap. It's like 20 bucks or something. Maybe, you know, it's not 40, 5060, $80 for a book like it is, it finds a note board.

    I also think, though I I think I know that $20 for a book is cheap in comparison, but that is not cheap

    as well. So the anarchists like have moved to making Z well, not moved. Been doing this for a long time, but they make zines, right? You print out, you know, four to eight pages on your home printer, you know, front and back, and you staple them together into a little booklet, right? And that, to me, is actually the one of the best ways of disseminating information, other than sending people PDFs or whatever, right? Which is a little more dangerous, because you potentially can get caught with copyright in a way that it's harder with a zine, yeah,

    yeah, and it's also a zine. I like, Yeah, I'm familiar with my model. Like the zine. I also think, like, I think of like the phrase lessons more as to, like that Asian, as to how much space and pages you have also makes you have to be more like, getting the point across more effectively and quickly, since it's like it, we only have so much to work

    with that. But also you can synthesize ideas from multiple sources, right? Because, like, there's plenty of ideas that where you only need, like, a few pages out of a book, but you need to combine that with several other texts, and you know that at that point is you're getting to the hundreds of dollars, potentially, and hours or days of reading, whereas if somebody you know, cuts all the pieces that are necessary, it could maybe be 10 pages or something and take a few minutes to read, and you could distribute it on mass for a fraction of the

    price. That's why a lot of students use Spark Notes, because they're like, way too long. I will say, as someone who did used to use Spark Notes that not really like, fully helpful in understanding the thing you're reading, to actually read it. But I will say I don't know why this specific meeting is, like ingrained in my head, but like I specifically remember there was this, there was a meeting. It was like, near when I first joined, where you and Adri were talking about like making, like online zines, and how you guys wanted to get started, and if anyone wanted to, like, help participate. And then it just like, fizzle. I think making zines is such a great idea.

    Well, can I say, Okay, real quick. So we have spent what time, we have spent two hours not doing the thing that we came here to do, right? And so, like, Part Part of the reason you're talking about things fizzling, part of the reason that a lot of our activities fizzle is that we all like each other, and we end up talking about interesting stuff for long periods, which is very good for our self, uh, expansion and Betterment or whatever. And I also think it's good for us as a group, right? Like this is what everybody in WCU should be doing, but we're not, we're not making zines, and we're not making documents, and we're not doing the things that, at least in theory, we're supposed to be doing, right?

    I agree with you. I do think that what usually takes the most

    amount of time is the Okay, so how are we gonna the initial conversation of, like, what are we going to do? How are we going to go about this? Because I think, yeah, two hours have passed, and in the grand scheme of things, did we really write a primer? No, right? No. But we do have to be intentional with what we're doing. So I do think that most all of our conversation was good conversation, and all of it was on the topic. And eventually we, because you have to have conversations today, okay, well, let's start out with terms, okay. Well, in that conversation, there will probably be a debate, okay? And if there is a debate, how are we going to go about mediating that? Okay, well, there's going to be criticism, so maybe first we should do criticism. But I agree these, these two do take them out of time, and I I'm not in the slightest blaming anyone for like things fizzling. It does take

    that's not what I'm saying. This is a self criticism of mine, that I talk too much, right? And the reason is, again, going back to it, I like the people in WCU, almost across the board, right? And the people in WCU that I've that I have had time to talk to, do tend to be they have a good understanding. Of us or international politics, right? They tend to be very empathetic, understanding people, and they can do have a sincere desire to make things better, right? And so it's very easy to get lost in conversation.

    Well, also, I think that outside of, not even during the general meeting, but like, after the general meeting or after events, we don't really have a lot of space to just converse, right? Like I one thing that I was very thankful for with WCU is that there were a lot of, like, passionate people that knew a lot about things that I cared about, and even more so that's why I like having conversations with almost everyone. Well, actually,

    I haven't met anybody in WCU that I didn't like so far, or at least that I didn't think was worth talking to. You know,

    I agree and so well, I mean that that's just, that may be just a to me. This might just be a critique of the way WC is structured, and how we only have because I wish that we had events where we could come and talk, because it seems like there are a lot of people that like, Hey, I don't know about you guys, but I have a very small, like, subset of friends that I can talk to about certain topics. And then I have other friends that, if I mentioned politics,

    it's a non starter. Yeah,

    I can talk about it, but I have to go back to like basics, which I don't mind, but if I have in my mind a specific topic that I want to talk about, I can't really like go to that certain set of people.

    Makes sense.

    Yeah? I think socials where we actually just come let's just yeah guys, it's fun. I think we will all enjoy it and we will actually get to it

    further better. I agree with that, yeah, because I well, maybe this is just because, like, people have just assumed this about me for so long. I've internalized that just being a quiet guy, but no, I like the app, and I think topics like this maybe decide, yeah, but I do agree that having more, Like, obviously social like,

    you know, face was also kind of gain back to writing, just like minimizing, like, if they go back to the self, like minimizing,

    you know, us like talking about variety of things, rather than like, focusing more on the

    well, thing we

    had in mind.

    I The thing is, like, I so it's not I agree. I like, I like talking about stuff, right? But the thing is that I think we also all agree that we want to do something, right? Yeah, if we want to change the like, let's frame this from like, a work perspective, right? If you have a thing that you have a job to do or whatever, right, if you spend all your time talking with your cool co workers, the job doesn't get done. Yeah, right. And there the and the task that we want to take on is absolutely massive, right? And even if we're just chipping away at a tiny little corner of it, it's still a big task. And so I think that we we're gonna need to find a way to be able to have these conversations while also being productive right at the same time. And, you know? And, of course, sometimes we should have pure socials where we're not working, because that's the whole part of the whole fucking point of this is that we don't want to be workaholics, like that's fucking capital, or the community

    is one of the only points of unity that everyone agreed on. That's the only one that we actually made. No, I

    think we had one, a couple other ones, like direct democracy or something.

    Oh, I don't, I don't even think that was one of the ones that one Harpreet was asking people, which one they they think should be in the place of dignity. I think it was, what was it? Anti capitalism? Yeah, the capitalist I'm reading the wrong. One, yeah, it was pretty much all of them. Because I remember we talked about this, Riley, all of them pretty much met one thing, and that was community, yeah.

    Well, so okay, sorry again, I'm totally derailing the Do you remember at the end of one of the meetings that we had the appropriate mention, like, how a lot of the old lodges, like the Elks Lodge and the Mason and the whatever, they've been dying, like, there's a book called Bowling Alone from like, 20 years ago that's on the topic of how the all those things are dying. But the thing is, they still exist, and they have a lot of money, right? And historically, the way that Americans organized politically was inside of those, you know, like membership organizations, the launches and, you know, on the secret societies and whatever. And the thing is, people want community. What they what we should be doing is rebuilding or like having young people join those and then redirect them towards political ends. Basically,

    it always comes back to creepy.

    No, but I agree with you. I agree with you. I think we should take advantage of spaces that already exist and people within those spaces of just like getting them to come into WCU, and then, just like talking about it, if they're knitting club right, or their bowling club, or whatever their Friday night or Friday morning coffee brunch group, you know, like just taking them back to their spaces, which I think this is something that we're lacking. But and I back to the actual topic I had, how to have conversations. I a productive conversation. Don't, don't, yeah, there's a time and place to Yap, and that's something that I need to learn.

    Don't, yeah, that's, I mean, that's kind of, it's something real.

    Well, do Yap, but Yap on topic. We were, yeah. Like, no, I think, Oh, that was a good point. Riley, let's do this. Yeah. Okay, I started the presentation. Okay. Like, if it was that type of, yeah,

    maybe okay. So maybe the Okay, so maybe it's like, stay on topic, then that is, stay on target topic. Okay, all right, all right. So I think, can we, can we all like, agree that we want to, we want to have produced something or at the end of this meeting, right?

    Yeah, okay.

    And I think we all basically agree that how to have a conversation is, or how to have a conversation is the thing that we want to he's like, the fundamental thing that we want to get across to people, right? Because, yeah, because it allows us they talk about everything else. Yeah,

    exactly. There's sub categories within it, but yeah, I agree with you,

    yeah. Because, like, the thing is, like, when, when we started the meeting, I think we were more like we need to agree about what words mean and or like we need to tell people how WCU functions, because that seems to be the thing that people are very confused about. And then we realize the in the process of that, we realized that to even be able to do that. We have to know how to talk to each other in a way that is productive, right? And so i Is there a I hope not, but is there a deeper, more fundamental level than that before we start doing this

    game? In reality,

    there is, right, yeah. But we gotta, like, We gotta stop somewhere, right, yeah. But also,

    I it's not like, I'm gonna go up to people and be like, yeah, don't tie your ego back to the you know. Like, you know, that's not Oh. I think, personally, I think how to have conversations is a good place to start.

    Okay, Pete, I

    agree, like just, I think just

    maybe I was saying it earlier

    of just

    yeah is

    Yeah, yeah, just like a good starting point, or like to getting to where I get where we want

    that so, okay, so if this is the thing is, this is a place that we actually want to start, then right? What are the like if we were gonna break how to have a conversation down into teachable pieces. What would those teachable pieces be?

    No, the hard part is, like, there are so many things, but for example, right? I can't, I don't know how to teach someone respect, I don't know how to teach someone empathy. I don't know how to teach those things.

    I don't know if

    we need to teach people how to how to do those things, so much as we need to convey to them that to have a productive conversation, they have to apply those things, and we just have to tell it like we have to define for them what we mean by, you know,

    respect or whatever, and then, if they choose or are incapable of abiding by that principle that

    we laid out for them, then we can have a side conversation with that person. Be like, Hey, do you understand the concept or whatever the thing that they're messing up? And if they maybe they didn't understand it, um, then we can try and have have that conversation and like, you know, impart to them what that means. I think if someone

    asked me, Do you know? Do you know what respect means? I I

    would feel disrespected,

    personally attacked, even if I'm like, completely in the wrong like, of course, I know what respect means. Yes, I I, I don't think that we necessarily need to teach that. It's just like, Great laying down the here

    is, I'll send you guys the link to the document again, because I think it, it's under, it's under how to have a conversation in the handbook. I know it's we went, we're starting a little later. Well, I mean, technically, we're starting the production part of it

    later. Well, I think we're starting the actual, like, meat of it now, because before it was productive, we could have if we wanted to, yeah, yeah. Let's do the, let's do the glossary and define terms.

    That's the that's the other thing is, I have, okay, real quick. Sorry, I put a bunch of points here that I got from an AI. And while we continue talking, would you guys just like, go when, like, if you're not talking, just go over those points and see if they make sense to you. But I, I agree that our conversations are productive with the caveat, an assumption that we will in the future, at some point, apply them, apply the Yeah, we'll continue the conversations, but also apply the things that we ended up agreeing On,

    assuming there is something to apply from the camera. You know what I mean?

    That is, that is a very, very good point, good note.

    Um, let's see. I.

    Best one I know you and I have a hard time with number eight, or at least the beginning of number eight.

    Yeah, no clue. No clue how to do that with grace. Absolutely not.

    I don't know about the awkwardness one, but the dealing with silence. The second there is silence, I feel the urge to speak.

    I feel like that's a whole pathway I could make like a best selling book with like I'm it was actually yesterday, as mentioned, he Riley, a friend of mine, that we've been reading books together, mainly on like she is, I guess, like have the two of you are mentioning more. So I guess, like more of a challenge to deal with silence, whereas I feel like I am often doing that so even kind of back and forth, starting to read books on like being as being comfortable being in solitude with your own thoughts and life, or even not necessarily thinking, just being in tune with yourself

    and yeah, not that that's just something. It's like, yeah, you know, it's like, I should i

    i might bet some of my own experiences down, but could be helpful for other people.

    That would be helpful for me. I am that other people. I wish I'm only now I'm only recently have I grown more comfortable in silence, not even other people's silence. I don't know why, but I feel like the weight of a conversation is entirely on me and someone. In order to make it like quote better for the other person and for them to enjoy it, conversation has to be flowing, which isn't true also like, I like when I shut up, like I genuinely do, don't do

    it boy, I

    there is A little part of me that I kind of go back and forth between thinking that the words coming out of mouth are like brilliant, and the other part of the time, I think I just become the person who's Ever

    that's real, that is very real. I also, yeah, I know, like I I have an ebook, you know, like I am part of that group, so I can't really it's a problem, because I genuinely do want to listen to what more people will say. So hold me accountable, guys, please. I won't get offended if you tell me best mess, shut up. Let I will not get I will actually

    appreciate Okay, so down below I have added roles for so in consensus making you usually want to have, you don't want to just have, like, completely free form conversation. You usually want to have people who are guiding the conversation in some way. And I put these are some of the potential roles I got. I trimmed some of them, but I think even this is too many. I know that for sure, like facilitator, note taker, timekeeper, are like absolutely necessary for productive conversations, and they don't necessarily need to be different people. Sometimes, you know, a lot of them can be like combined into a single role. But I. You know also. So on top of going through the whenever, these things that I put up here are, if you'd be willing to go through these as well, and if you see one that seems like extraneous or redundant, highlight it for deletion. I

    Por favor. Por favor,

    I will say another thing that one of the things I don't want to recreate about early WCU, and they just remind you by hearing your guys packing teeth, is that we would often have working meetings where we didn't have good conversations and people not want to come. So we do need to have both of these things the same

    time. I remember when I first joined. We need to find a balance. That's what it is I because I remember when I first joined, like the first meeting that I like, up outside of the general meeting, it was silent, like dead silent, unless it was like, oh, Harpreet, do you have this? Can you send me this file? Or how do I do this? Right? We tried so hard to keep conversations at well, minimal, very, very minimal. But I do think we were productive.

    Well, yeah, maybe

    we did more.

    We did more. What though

    we did more. We finished more. Was it the best quality?

    I'm not even 100% sure what we finished, though, is part of the problem, right? Because, like looking and again, I don't want to take Paulo's position exactly with it and say that we did nothing. We did a lot, right? But I don't know if we did anything that I would like, if I was going to somebody outside of WC and they're like, hey, what do you guys do that? I'd be like, this is the thing that we do that's like, really cool, you know? Yeah,

    well, I mean, that's why I'm saying we need to find a balance, because I do think that in training and in doing this, you do need to have conversations, right? Of, are we sure this is the best place to start? Or, oh, let's think of the nuances within this. If we do this, then this will happen. How are we going to deal with this? Because we did, technically do a lot, quote, more work in that finish, a lot more. But because we didn't like give ourselves opportunity to like Converse or like offer feedback during it, was just like, Okay, I said I'm gonna make this statement. Or I said I'm gonna put this out. It's out, and that's End of story. I I would also kind of agree with, well, you know, my thoughts on this, I would also kind of agree that, in the grand scheme of things, what have we done?

    What have we really, yeah, that's it. That's the thing. Is, like, I, I, I feel a little bad, because we all have put in time and effort into WCU, right? And I from a, I think it's a little unfair to expect results over the from, from literally nothing. It's, it has been, it two, it hasn't even been two years yet, right? And we have built the foundations of an organization. And I think that the idea that that you because, like most, most, like, like a capitalist business. Says they don't start being productive until after their fifth year, right? So the idea that we should be up and running in under two years seems unfair or over ambitious or

    something, especially as you're mentioning examples of, like, capitalist businesses with, like, you know, we have really no money. Like, yeah, so it's like,

    you know, you know, I don't have

    a lot of money personally. So it's just like, yeah, it's just like, is that that's another like, we have far fewer resources at hand. So yeah, I do agree with what you're getting at, though, Riley,

    and also, we're not getting paid

    right Damn straight. Yeah, no, we're here

    for funsies. We're here because this is like we we want to see a change something that we're passionate about. So I think it is only fair for us to be like, Hey, man, I have free time this week. Let's do something. So of course, this is going to take longer than it too. I would be putting in so much more time if I were getting paid, yeah, yeah,

    exactly, yeah. Well, I mean, I don't know about you, but I have a full time job, right? I spend 40 hours a week doing other shit. And, you know, you at the end of that pretty tired, right? Like I did an eight hour day today, and then now what? It's been enough.

    It's been two and a half more hours, right? That's a 10 and a half hour work day, basically. I mean, obviously most of this was conversation, so it was debatably not the most strenuous thing, right? But regard like you know, if you spent 10 hours in meetings at work, nobody would bat an eye when you went home and

    said you retired. Yeah. Which is why I appreciate all the work that every single person like when, when I'm saying like, I don't think we, in the grand scheme of things, we've done anything i i think the fact that, like, people are putting in the little time of their free time to have is incredible, and I'm very thankful for all of that. More than thankful. In my limited vocabulary, I don't know what more there is and what that means, but whatever that word is, that is what I'm feeling deep

    appreciation. I know I agree. I agree right, and I also think that if we are going to be successful,

    right, we need to build relationships. We need your community. We need to spend time talking right. We need to spend time to spend the little time that we have building relationships with each other, that you know, that we know that we can rely on that way when we do have the free time to act, you know, outside of work, to actually do stuff we can. We can be sure of our like, our comrades and like, just do the thing that needs to be done, right? But that is only going to come from having these kinds of conversations and working with each other on little things. And that's what I'm saying. The idea that we should be up and running in two years is crazy.

    I I mean, for the cards that we've been dealt, I think we're doing pretty good. I i Sometimes just have to be like, Hey, man, those things take time. Let's relax. Um, and I should be realistic

    that I was just having a thought of

    my last job,

    like I thought I was part of a couple of, like, you know, volunteer. I wasn't getting paid for them, but like, within, like, the National org that was a part of just like kind of one was like, like, an Equity Council. Uh, but like, getting the sense, like, even within, like, well, like, this was like nonprofit world, but like, even in like orgs that have more money and are more established compared to us, it's like, you know, they're constantly having to like, like, change like, certain ideas, or like, how they go about things all the time, like, As to like, that in terms of like, protocols and guidelines. I guess that's also like, think of it in that sense. It's like, you know, basically like having this just sometimes throwing away things entirely because it's like, it doesn't really fit the doesn't fit the image of what we want, like this group like to be, or like what we Want to represent. Like, you know, because of like, really came down to just more like, you know, just like times changing and just like, you know, just like cultural attitudes changing and just like, also, like, certain ideas about teaching like that have become more problematic nowadays, that it's like, we don't want to unconsciously, like, make it seem like we're supporting so it's like, just like certain terms, like when I got to start my job, where it's like, I Don't know what, like older people who's still using it when it's like, I don't even know what that means. And hearing where it's like, oh, yeah, no one uses that anymore because it's like, not, it's not relevant anymore. So I think, if I have a point to any of this is just that, yeah, like, you know, as we're still figuring out the handbook and all that stuff,

    okay, what, what, what definitions we want,

    it's also just going to be Like, this is going to be like a continual process,

    and that

    sometimes may feel like we're

    behind, when really We have made progress. You know, it just maybe sometimes doesn't feel that way.

    Yeah, well, I mean, in comparison to to where WC was a year ago. So let's see, in January of last year, definitely, what did you join?

    I think I joined. Oh, when did I join? Is it February?

    No, I was here.

    I don't think you were here for the Christmas

    meeting last year right the end of your No, it was February. No, wait, I think it was December, because I had

    gotten back from Yeah, I think it was December or because

    I left for Germany when I like, I was gone for a bit February.

    Yeah, I I

    remember you joined and then left immediately, yeah, yeah.

    I don't even have an opportunity to get to know these people. I found an org, and I had to immediately leave. I was so devastated.

    Yeah, sorry,

    no, I was just gonna ask. What you were gonna say?

    Oh, well, I've always been meaning to ask, like, when you joined, because I don't think I ever got that or asked you directly because, like, I joined, like, March, so you. Actually predict me, but I didn't even know about your who you were up until, like, a few months ago. Also, you know, like I was not very consistent in the beginning, just because, like, I was also still, like, like last well, at the end of 2023 having like, a mental breakdown, basically, and then, like, a lot of 2024 was just recovering from that, and now doing the job I'm doing now, since like August, so until like, the end of the summer, was I starting to feel Like, okay, I'm not all there yet, but like, I'm doing a bit better, and so I didn't really do as much with the org, compared to relatively recently, which is also when I I guess I forget you, actually when, but start noticing you and like met you.

    I mean, first of all, I'm glad to hear that you're doing better. Second of all, I think in your defense, I was also gone until March or until June.

    Yeah, and I think

    one thing that I've noticed

    members who only join online

    to me, as weird as it sounds, don't really feel like real people if I hadn't actually, like had an outside conversation with

    them. So like for

    you and Christina, thinking back now, I remember seeing you guys online on like, the zoom in the beginning, but then when I saw you in person, you all of a sudden just became like a real person. Of like, oh, whoa. Are they new? When did they join? Did they just joined? But no, you've been there for a while. Um, yeah, so, I mean, same thing with me there. There were plenty of I didn't even know who Tanner was. I thought his name was Pete. So I thought we had three Peters up until recently.

    Well, anyways, my point, my point was, right, is that compared to where we were last year at this time, I we have more active members, right? We don't quite have twice as many active members.

    We're getting there, though, yeah,

    but for sure, I think it, I will say that, like a couple of people who were active, have dropped off, right? Adri for, you know, family reasons, but also for personal reasons, you know, like burp and stuff, has kind of she doesn't have quite as much time as when she was on school, right? Chris also got a job that takes up a lot of his time, so she's less active, you know? But you two are more active. Nora is more active. Sean more active. Christine is more active, right? Like we have traded, you know, we might have lost a few members who were, who are not, who just don't have the capacities contribute as much, right? But we thought more, way, more people actively and and participating at a relatively high level too, like we didn't even have focus campaign leads last year, just it wasn't a thing. So I we're definitely in a better position additionally, right? The no votes for genocide campaign, while I don't think that it really produced any like material results for Palestine or politically, it did result in a lot of these people between

    WCU, right? I people changing WCU, right? And it proves that we are capable of at least reaching a, you know, a medium sized, noncommercial and the 10, I think the 10 million, a little bit harder to just. Justify because we've had a hard time getting community buy in, right? But I think that the work that people put into it has been very good, right? Like it has been, I think that it should have been good training for the people who participated so people who participated for the next phase of that

    campaign, well, I think overall, I agree with you, 100% I think overall, because we are a new org, we do have to give ourselves the like patience to grow, because even with like the tenant union campaign, I can read about like law two and other like unions right or tenant unions, or whatever other organizations, but I've come to realize that organizing in the Central Valley is a completely different beast. Organizing in Falcon and Lodi specifically is very is very difficult, but like, what's what's good about it is that even though, in the grand scheme of things, did the no votes for genocide campaign really produce any material, like aid, anything? No.

    But

    I think we have learned a lot, and this is just something that like will continue to happen. We will begin to fine tune strategies and tactics that we found have actually worked. We're just in the beginning stages of like we have. We will mess up. We're still trying to figure out the best way to do it, the best tactic to to do so I have to remind myself of that sometimes, like, I was beating myself up a lot when it came to the levels for genocide pledge. But like, I just have to remind myself, you know, it's a learning experience, you know, for all of us, and we'll, we'll get it right next

    time what I actually so then I think the notebook for genocide campaign actually is a good example of why we should be reading more theoretical and historical accounts of labor movements. Because I think that if we as an organization had a better grasp of why you can't really trust the state and the like lack of success that a lot of other labor unions have had with

    leveraging politicians to do Basically anything that wasn't in the politicians interest. Somehow,

    I think that we probably would have taken a different tact on that. And that's like, I again, there's self criticism, right? I kind of thought that at the time, but I didn't voice it enough, because I was like, well, the logic of this campaign makes sense, right, you know, and I think that going forward, maybe we can be a little bit better about that kind of stuff.

    Yeah, I will say that the organizing space has being here has made me

    want to, like,

    speak up more and say my views or opinions more, because I did have doubts when it came to the no vote for this, I pledge, but I was just like, You know What? There are people here that Well, I also didn't know anyone's experience. So I was like, okay, you know what? Everyone must have more experience than I do. It was like, see how it goes. And also I was like, I'm a new member, like, who this is not the culture that I want it to be in the slightest, right? I'm just saying these are my thoughts. Like, who am I to, which is so dumb, but like, who am I to? Like, say, no, let's do this crazy to say for a horizontal organization, but we're all

    the one who should be saying exactly,

    exactly, I was institutionalized man,

    but I that is one thing that I'm, yeah, very thankful for of I think, had I not been in a i. Either position of leadership or

    felt like

    as much pressure on myself, I don't think I would have learned of like

    no

    talk about your opinions. If you think this isn't the best way to go about it, say it right and ideally no one will get bored and too old

    for the greater good

    guys for the greater good. Hopefully, we could actually, like, create that type of culture and an environment within the org that makes it like, more comfortable and easier for new people, new organizers who I'm still a new organizer. I I don't know what

    I'm doing. I Okay, I will admit right, that while I have been doing some, like political activity for more, like 15 years, maybe, right? I I would actually say I'm the more that, the longer I've been in WCU, the more I realize I have an insane amount to learn about doing organization like is a difficult fucking topic. It's it. It's being effective at it requires you to be good at so many different things at the same time that it. It is, you know, multi disciplinary is like a understatement,

    yeah? Well, I think even just knowledge itself, or gaining knowledge is a paradox. The more that you learn, the more that you realize you don't know anything that there is a lot more to learn. So like Had you asked me a couple years ago, I would have said, Nah, I know all there is to know. As ignorant as that sounds, I could have realized I know everything, but then I started learning, and now I'm at the point where, like, I know nothing, I literally know something, but, like, in the grand scheme of things, absolutely, absolutely nothing.

    Yeah, I don't know if I ever thought I knew everything, but I definitely it's it's very easy when you don't have enough information to think that you have a better handle on something than you actually do, and especially like practical things To me, like when I was younger, I learned how to weld, right? And welding is, in comparison to political organizing, incredibly easy, right? It's a compliment, but, like, it's one of those things you get your hands on and just start doing political organizing is not like that you can't like, there's nothing to get your hands on, right? It is all very amorphous, and like, you know, ensuring that your actions have material results that are like positive is so hard.

    Oh, my, that's the hardest part. Okay?

    I Okay, all right,

    so it's 11 o'clock. I've been awake, yeah, most of the day I, like, woke up at like seven or six or something like that. So I'm getting a little on the tie tie side, real quick before we start doing the let's talk later, or we're done for the evening, or whatever do you want to Should we go through this like smattering of bullet points that I have thrown down here and like, See what's worth keeping what's not as a group?

    I sure,

    sick,

    okay. On the left hand side of the document, there are five tabs, okay, or whatever. Right sections? Sections, yes, thank you. Are these the sections like, if, we're if, if you were coming to this document as a new as a new person to WCU, and

    we don't want them. Be overwhelmed. We don't want them to, you know, we would like this to be a quick and relatively easy thing to go through. Are these sections? These sections make sense? As like the things that,

    if you're like trying to find the most important part of the document. Or do these make sense?

    To you guys?

    Also, Disney is burning.

    Disney is burning. That's Oh,

    that I'm

    cool with these. I

    think this hits the hits the mark on the shoe. I just said the word and I completely

    forgot it had sections.

    How do you feel about these sections? Like, from like, pretend like you were giving this to one of your Students or

    something?

    Oh, Sorry,

    I guess Yeah, that's there is fine, I guess, if they're, if I'm looking at from like a, just a,

    as you're saying, Really, just if I remember, I can't listen to a student, but I think just

    majority of them, but I feel just from My experience,

    would not engage with it just because

    I because there's a lot there in terms of like, different,

    even though I'll be

    protected, I guess what I'm trying to say is Like, it's, I don't even know if it's like necessarily like the content is just more of like, is there a better way of Just,

    I guess, like visualizing or like showing the same, like, like, what's already there? Yeah, my, I think going after what, there's no saying. My mind is like,

    wait in the night. Yeah,

    with the with that,

    what Pete just said, this is a lot of words, right, and I am not sure if this is the best way to go

    about a whole

    subject on how to have conversations, where it's just someone reading it, and it's not like you can't really visualize how to promote understanding their inclusivity. Just by reading it, you.

    Well, so okay, that's the thing is I was hoping. So okay, the handbook isn't just the reason that I wanted to make the handbook into like a we like a hub for hyperlinks of other documents, is to prevent the overwhelming feeling that you often get when somebody hands you a handbook, right? Because, to me, when so often, when I start something new, somebody will hand me a handbook about how to do stuff, and I just don't read it because it's 1000 pages long and it's got too much information, and it's just not easy to digest. Whereas this the handbook, right, has a bunch of tabs, and those tabs tell you exactly what the thing is, and it leads to a document that's only about that thing, right? But each of those documents should come with a training, like an in person or online training that we design, right? So like the you know, the welcome new members part of the handbook should go along with the onboarding process and the points of unity. Well, that's probably, well, the how to make a proposal, right? Should be like part of how to run a meeting or something like that, right? But each of these things should come with a training where we practice, where we explain the idea, and then practice the fundamentals of it in person or online, right? And so this document is for like, when you you know, you miss the training. Like I said before, at the beginning of this thing, you miss the training. We're not having another one until next quarter or next year or whatever, and you still want to know, how do I have a conversation? Why are conversations are important, you know, like this is to fill people in in between those training

    sessions, yeah, just to it's like a just having a physical copy, just in case anyone to refer to or just to have on top of the whatever, like presentation or whatever.

    Yeah, because like so my Okay, part of my job as membership coordinator, right is scheduling, you know, events and bringing new people on board and recruitment, but it's also making sure that we have a plan for how to bring People from wherever it is, meeting them where they're at and bringing them over here, right? And then Pete's job as the education coordinator is to help me well, is he's, I mean, he has his own separate things that he needs to do, right? But part of it is to help provide me with the the the material required to educate people on those topics, right? Our roles are related pretty strongly, right? Which is why they originally they were a single position, because they are kind of something that you know, like go hand in hand with each other, but I lost my train of thought in the

    Okay, what I'm hearing, what I'm doing, Yeah, our mental state

    is not currently capable of

    performing and saying the words that we mean, yes,

    sure, yeah.

    Let us just pause here.

    We have a very basic skeleton of what we want to do. And then we can in the in future meetings, or during our free time, come back, highlight points or make comments of what we like or what we don't like, right? And then we can also, like, later, figure out, how do we want to go about presenting this or like an actual, like visual thing that could help understanding this.

    Yes, also, oh no, sorry, Pete, go ahead. I would say anything. Um. Yes, I agree. I'm I'm fine with that. But also we need to remember the thing that we said at the beginning this that's not related to this topic, which is that, or that's related to what Harpreet said that we need to have a we need to bring before the general membership, or we, or maybe we need to clarify our policy on steering committee meetings, right and like, when it's okay for a quorum of steering committee members to meet, and whether they need to record the meeting, etc, etc.

    Well, if that's the case, right, I do think that since you are membership coordinator, right, and he is education coordinator, I don't have to continue to come to these meetings, right? I can still look over the drafts and we can post this on the forum, but just until then, it makes more sense for this to be something that

    you guys do, and then maybe get feedback from me if

    it is going to be a problem of Oh, you guys are meeting too frequently. I

    i Okay. So I think we should actually air in the other direction in in normalizing it that for things that are not steering like steering committee, things right like this is clearly either a membership or education committee thing, although I'm not Pete, it could be either one item. It's up to you. But I think, I

    guess, yeah, I would argue it's like I like to respond. The I don't really see it beginning or ending with either.

    I don't really I this one of my one of my problems with steering committee is that a lot of our roles overlap so much that I don't really know what the point of having I still don't really understand why steering committee exists at all. It doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. But given that it does exist, and given that WCU is committed to transparency, we should bare minimum, continue to notify people when we meet and record the meetings, you know, just to be on the up and up, but I do think we should err on the side that it's okay for a majority of steering to meet and work on something that's not a steering committee thing, because our jobs are to facilitate the organization's existence, and we need to work together to be able to do that.

    I just realized that the more we meet, the more work I have to do, because I have to write down all of the meeting minutes.

    You should really talk to Harpreet about using AI to do the transcription for you, because he had talked about that a while back, and I don't think he ever implemented it. But since we recorded this, you could use an AI to take it from, you know, speech to text.

    Well, the thing is, I don't

    want to be reliant on AI. I think if I use AI too much, then I'm going to miss out on a lot of valuable skills. Plus, I think I was just complaining, just

    to complain.

    Plus, I also think that I enjoy listening to the topics that are talked about in the recordings of the meetings, because if I weren't Secretary, for example, I wouldn't re watch the videos, so I wouldn't get another chance to digest and actually, like, understand the points that people are making.

    Can I can I critique the assumption that no one's watching them except for the secretary? Yeah?

    Well, are you watching them? No, I've never I don't know anybody who's watched any of

    them well, except me. That's not true. That's not true when I was looking to see if we had passed the the code of conduct, I did go back through some of the videos of our old meetings, and I couldn't find it. That's actually how I why I'm pretty sure that we never passed the code of conduct. I think

    it is time consuming, yes, but it is. There is a. Plus, re watching the the videos, because I think in the moment, maybe I didn't notice exactly what someone was saying, or

    I didn't bring my bag, fell off my chair. Yeah,

    I know I zone out all the time, even when I'm talking. So,

    yeah, but I'm on autopilot when I'm talking.

    But yeah, okay.

    Are we all are we all good for this session of the whatever the fuck not steering committee meeting. This was,

    I will take your silence as affirmation.

    Doesn't want to leave this meeting.

    Pete, how do you feel about I will, I will propose

    that we end he's like, I'm asleep,

    like yourself, rather, I've been up for a long while. Yeah. May

    I also propose that for these meetings, we set a time, a hard deadline for when we end them and where we stop

    is where we stop. If we productive,

    I so if we do that, we we need to do the same thing we do during a general meeting, which is set a time keeper and a facilitator. Bear like, again, this kind of comes back to like, how WCU should work, and how the talk conversations should work and all that kind of stuff. How to have a meeting which we have a whole fucking document on and we're not doing it. We should follow our own rules.

    I think that would make these meetings a lot more productive.

    So yes, we agreed to leave Good night,

    guys. I appreciate every single one of you. You're awesome.

    I'll post the video. Oh,

    thank you so much it. Can you also send me the link to the video? Well,

    I yeah, I was gonna say, I'll put it in the in the in the drive, and then I'll send the link.

    I appreciate you so much. It's gonna take a long time to upload. So that's okay. No, yeah, bye, bye.

    Okay. That was the definitely not steering committee meeting for January, 10, 2025, I.