Hello and welcome to the thoughtful counselor, a podcast dedicated to bringing you innovative and evidence based counseling and mental health content designed to enhance your life, whether you're a clinician, supervisor, educator, or a person wanting to learn more about the counseling process. We are here to demystify mental health through conversations with a wide range of counseling professional powerhouses. In each episode, you'll learn about current issues in the field, new science and real life lessons learned from the therapy room. Thank you for joining us on our journey through the wide world of counseling. There's a lot to explore here, so sit back, take a deep breath, and let's get started.
Welcome back to another episode of the thoughtful counselor Podcast. I'm Dr Joe with Tapia, and with me today is a friend, a mentor, a colleague, an incredible human Dr Stacy, Diane, arranies, litam, pronouns, she her and SHA She's an associate professor of counselor education and supervision at the Cleveland State University, a Licensed Professional Clinical Counselor and supervisor, as well as a diplomat and clinical sexologist with the American Board of sexology. Dr Leeton is a racial equity strategist, cultural consultant and member of the Forbes Health Advisory Board and advisory council member for the National Board of certified counselors NBCC minority fellowship program, and was named one of Crain's Cleveland 40 under 40 in 2023, Dr leetam Speaking research and clinical areas of specialization include topics related to mental health and sexual well being, diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging, intergenerational trauma, as well as Asian American concerns. She is an immigrant and identifies as a Filipina and Chinese American woman, she works. Her work has been featured in the White House Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Organization, Forbes Health, National Public Radio, Discovery magazine, Psychology Today, the National Institute of Health, Mental Health Academy, as well as in podcast, documentaries and news outlets. She has contributed to over 50 academic publishers, publications, including 17 research articles archived in the world's Health Organization's global literature database on COVID 19, and has partnered with federal level organizations, nationally recognized brands and professional sports teams. Now, because of all the all of that amazing information you just learned about her, I wanted to speak to her specifically, because she is coming out with a book, and this book, by the time this episode is out, will have been available to purchase. And so Dr leeton's debut book patterns that remain a guide to healing for Asian children of immigrants, empowers readers to heal from disporatic wounds and harnesses the power of our stories informed by Lee times lived experiences as a Filipina and Chinese immigrant patterns that remain provides the foundation for timely conversations and offers a practical framework to heal diasporatic wounds, breaking energy, intergenerational trauma patterns, and achieve secure attachment as people, partners and parents. This book is for everyone. I read it, I was so excited to talk to her about what she created, what she wrote and created for the world to read and so welcome. Let's welcome Dr Stacy. Litam. Stacy, welcome. Hi there. Thank you for having me. I am very excited to be here with you. We have a lot to talk about, a lot to explore. I'm very grateful to have been one of your first readers of your book, patterns that remain a guide to healing for Asian children of immigrants.
Thank you so much for taking the time to read it. I'm excited to dive in and hear all about your thoughts. Yes,
oh gosh. So many thoughts, so many emotions that were coming up when I was reading this. Something audience to know about me. I'm a second generation Mexican American, and so reading this book, I was just really drawn to just so many of the cultural messages and just historical context that have impacted so many communities, specifically the Asian community, and just how some of those themes just so deeply resonated with me and kind of just my own history and family, and it was so fascinating. As I was reading, I just found myself reflecting on, like, the stories I learned, about the stories I heard, and figuring out, oh, oh, there's connection here. Oh, there's themes here. Some of these messages that I think initially from what I what I would gather with family. So actually, this is a nice moment to reflect. And so something that I really appreciate about this the book is every chapter, you had reflective questions, and you kind of just put the reader in a position of, think about this a little more, digest this a little differently in your own way. And so tell me, let's start with before we continue diving in because I'm excited and I just want to go. I want to get a sense of what inspired you to write this book.
I'm first so glad to hear that the book resonated, because that's the exact message that I was hoping you would say. I think that this book is really a love letter to our community, not just the Asian American community, but also folks who identify as bipoc PGM, or really, anyone who has felt like they don't belong, anyone who's been told they have to work twice as hard to get half as far, anyone with a history of immigrant parents and anyone who also is passionate about promoting mental health among diverse communities. This book is for you. So what brought me to write this book is actually the beginning story of the chapter on attachment. At the time, I was, you know, a new mom. I had about a really chubby one year old kiddo. His name is kit. We call him the milk boy, and I remember just this moment where I'm sitting in the playroom and I wasn't present. I wasn't present at all with my kid. I kept thinking, I've got to check my email. I've got to be on my laptop. I can't just be in this moment with my kid. And he does this really unique thing. He scoots his booty up and sits in my lap, and I remember just feeling so grounded in that moment and realizing, Oh, what am I doing? Why am I trying to Hustle so hard to provide this life for my kid, for him to feel worthy in love when he already feels that way? And it was the first time for me that I realized I have this pattern. I have this pattern that remains from my immigrant parents mentality of hustle, hustle, hard. And so it sort of shocked me into reality, and I began to wonder, how many other people feel this way, and what does that look like in their daily lives, in their relationships, in the workplace and in their communities.
That's a very sweet story, I think. Just to highlight something there, I love how you shared so much about yourself and your own history and throughout this book, and many beautiful stories at the start of the chapters and some sometimes that beautifulness is like the vulnerability, which is also scary and has so much there. But yeah, when you definitely explored that in terms of from an attachment lens, and I really appreciate you doing that and kind of just contextualizing it in a way that helped people connect the dots in a different way of how some of these messages that may have been just there this whole time, and how those still, those patterns that remain, and what a beautiful title to begin with, and just striking in terms of what it what it pulled you, what it moved you into, into further exploring, further figuring out and reflecting and just kind of unpacking what does remain
absolutely I think it's so easy to forget that we are all just a combination of the messages received from family of origin, from religious communities, from our social communities, our peers, our our broader racial ethnic groups, and that we are all just doing the best we can with what we have. Sometimes those patterns that remain work and serve us in some way, and then other times they get kind of sticky, and we realize, ooh, this particular pattern maybe worked at some time, or is working a little bit, but I wonder if maybe it's holding me back in other ways,
and just again, the vulnerability to name it, and also just the curiosity to explore what those are. Absolutely and I appreciate the history lesson that you gave honestly, I learned so much about Asian history in the United States and just how those community, how the community, how various communities were impacted over the centuries. And just so when we think about right, it's like how our how our history impacts us today, how so many of those messages still carry such strong, heavy impacts for people today, even like yourself and many others had shared stories in the book. What was that like for you to really dive into the historical context of discrimination, oppression, marginalization?
It was, it was heavy, I think, in a lot of ways, because there were things that I was also excavating within myself, a lot of things that I didn't. That would come up emotionally or within my family of origin, or even the history of what it meant for me to be an immigrant, Chinese, Filipino, American woman, because we aren't taught American history, or I wasn't taught American history in the school systems, in the US growing up, and so a lot of the stuff that I was uncovering was either new for me or vaguely familiar. And so I had this moment of sort of awareness, realizing, Oh, wow. This is probably why my parents at x, y and z. This is probably why they responded in this way. And so, on one hand, huge moment of emotional excavation, and on the other hand, ah, compassion, compassion for my parents when maybe growing up, I felt resentment, I felt disappointment, I felt less than because of the way that they raised me and the belief I had about what they were supposed to be doing,
right? Oh, I love that you said that, because it's the right. As adults, we can look back and we may reevaluate some of this and be like, gosh, I hate, I hate that I still do these things because of what they taught me, or how they kind of instilled these messages in me, and then to come at it from a place of compassion, of, oh, there's so much more here. There's a reason why all of these things happen the way that they did, and the and the beliefs that they held that were meant to protect us and move us into a space of success and or just felt sense of belonging. Yeah, absolutely.
So that's why I incorporated these questions at the end, so I have like five questions to ponder for the reader to kind of dig a little deeper based on the content in each chapter. And then I have three questions to bridge the gap with parents, to begin breaking these sort of ideas around what our parents do, what they're supposed to do, but also for us to get to know our parents as people, not just as parents. I think it's such an important conversation that a lot of us don't have the framework or even the language to begin having. And so I found that among a variety of readers, these questions tend to be the ones that are the most powerful,
well, and not only the most powerful, it's, it's, they're so vulnerable, right? And which, which makes them powerful. But to your point is, I think about, I thought about that a lot when I saw, when I saw the bridging the gap with parents, and me thinking about, you know, if we really think about it, how much do we really know about our parents, right? And there's histories, and if you know, given their their ethnic and racial identities, and maybe some of the messages that they've carried on, like, what, what? Don't we know that we think we know. And so I really appreciated, kind of that bridging the gap, because it does give us time to pause. And I think about, you know, as I age, I want to know some of these stories. You talk about ancestors and storytelling, and kind of just bringing all of this to light, and I think there's so much power in well, we can start that with the family. You know, we there's if there's an opportunity, if they're available to you, can we make space to, kind of, to to bridge that gap and learn more? Yeah,
yeah, it's something like, like you said, we don't often have these conversations. We only see our parents in the way that we see them, until we expand that lens and give ourselves permission to dig a little deeper. And the other piece about the questions to bridge the gap with parents is I was really mindful in the words that I used in the event that parents maybe didn't have as much English fluency as we did, and so I wanted these questions to also be accessible in their ability to understand what we're asking, in case we don't have that same kind of language and ability to communicate
absolutely and I think you did A beautiful job of doing that and making it accessible to the reader, to be able to use that question and or make it their own right and figure out how to engage their parents with some of this desire to learn and understand who they are. Because, again, that just adds to your to your point of it builds compassion if I learn more about them, and I learn, you know, what they had to navigate, or the decision that they chose to make for specific reasons, then we get a different understanding of why our history, why our life ended up, ended the way did, or, you know, in terms of decisions that were made and lived experiences. I love how you so the book to me, I love how it starts, because you kind of get us started in this like, hey, let's ground ourselves in what we need to know related to Asian Americans and or children of immigrants, and what it's, what are some of these unhelpful patterns? What is the things related to mental health? I think obviously you as a educator. As a clinician, being able to come at it from that lens to ground all of us who you know, maybe, maybe we're in the field. Maybe we're not. Maybe we are giving this book to a family member who's not. It still helps us understand and wrap our minds around what we're about to step into and move into as the book continues, what was it to gather all of this information and to really organize it the way you did? What message did you want to get the readers going on?
I think the message that I want readers to get going on is first of which to recognize that as mental health professionals, as professional counselors, that we are deserving of the same compassion for healing and love that we extend so freely to clients. I think that it's easy for us to think, oh, I can do this work later. I can take up this mantle of excavation in the future, I'll start next week. I'll start self care next month, and it never happened. So I want readers and listeners to know that they are worthy of this work, and they are worthy of healing, and they're worthy of self compassion, and so are their parents.
Right? Absolutely, I love that. And there's like, there's no time like the present, right? Let's do it. One of the things I you, you made a decision, you made a choice, and you said, I'm not only going to talk about me, but I'm going to bring in other people's stories, other people's narratives. What was that like for you in terms of gathering so many different perspectives across various Asian identities and backgrounds.
So that was, that was kind of the fun part, because I, you know, I'm a researcher by right. And so that part was interesting, because the decision to incorporate different stories and voices happened in a moment with my partner. And so there was a day this actual story is in the book, where I come home and it's just been a really long day. And so, you know, those long days you come home and you just want to eat something and you want to be cozy, and you don't want to be mom. And I remember, you know, making this little meal for myself, and I was already, you know, quite fussy with my partner, and as I'm walking toward the cow to just be able to sit and, like, eat my little snack in peace, he sort of takes it upon himself to pick up the remote and say, Hey, what do you want to watch on TV? Because I know that you like to watch cooking shows while you eat. And I remember just thinking, oh my gosh, I feel so seen. And was just a monster to you, and yet you still love and accept me and are holding space for me in this really beautiful way. And there was something about that sense of anticipating my needs and knowing me so deeply that felt inherently healing and connecting in a way that I hadn't felt before. And so I started to be curious around what does that look like for other people? What have the overlaps been in how we heal? And so that was when I made the decision for this to really become a bit of a grounded theory, and, you know, leveraging different voices from a variety of different diasporic communities, because I didn't want this to just be East Asian experiences, East Asian voices, which is sort of we see with Asian American research, is Asian American research, and stories tend to be East Asian American research. And stories are they see in our South Asian communities. And so it's really intentional in making sure that it had representation among those. And so it was this sort of curiosity to understand, like, what have other people experienced in relationships as children of immigrants, and what is it that we need to feel connected and safe and happy and whole with our partner? So that's how the storytelling sort of found itself in the book. I
love that, and just what richness came from their their willingness to share and be vulnerable and express their their stories and it you you were naming all of the the themes and how it cuts across so many communities, and how some of those messages just continue and perpetuate themselves into adulthood. And again, like you said, some helpful and some patterns that remain are helpful, and some of them might not be so helpful anymore, and so taking the time to really digest and just unpack and so to with your story, I really love that story among all so many that you shared, because it takes. Yeah, that moment could have been lost, right? It could have just happened, and you would have just went on eating your food while you're watching a cooking show. But it took, it took a moment of pause presence to be able to recognize, oh, this is a different message, right? I My, my needs, my, my wants or desires, you know aren't going to be dismissed, aren't going to be invalidated or minimized or ignored. I'm actually this idea. I'm being seen. And I think that some of the to the trajectory of your of your book, kind of goes through this journey of almost all the lessons that have been learned and have led into a space of healing.
I'm so glad that was your takeaway. I'm curious for you, Joey, were there any parts about the book that resonated especially strong, or parts that stood out for you? Yeah,
I thanks for that question for me. There, there was, there was two aspects that came up. One of, I would say the first one was around cultural scripts. And so when we when I was just I'm an attachment therapist, and so when you talked about attachment, they was like, Oh, I'm going to live in this space with Stacy. It's amazing. I love it, and I and I'm going to learn about it in a different way, because you're coming at it with a different lens and expanding it and focusing it on Asian Americans and immigrants, and so I was, I was really sitting with all of this and looking at it from my own upbringing and my own the messages that I carried. And what really struck me was with it to your point earlier, I felt compassion in a different way for my for my family. I, I would say, you know, I know a lot about attachment theory, my dissertation, all those things, attachment, attachment, attachment. And even then, I still hadn't, I still hadn't reframed this, their experiences in this way to consider patterns that have remained and that have continued to carry on throughout generations in my family. And so it brought a lot of compassion, and it honestly brought a lot of emotions up. Of it was like of an understanding I had a newer I had a different understanding of of them as people, as humans who are just trying to, like, figure it out. Felt really special, because I got to understand them as humans in a different way, what they had to navigate, what my grandparents had to navigate, and mybuelos and my buels, like, had to figure out that I just didn't sit with it in the in that way. And so the questions, the bridging the gap. You know, I'm going home for Christmas, and so I'm going to be bringing these questions. I'm going to be having some of these conversations. Because I think, as a family again, drama always. There's drama on some level in many family systems, and this kind of moves us away from the current, present, whatever shenanigans, and moves us into a space of reflection and curiosity and connection, because these stories, if they're not shared, they will die, right? They won't, they won't be transferred on to those that come after us. And so I it did give me, it gave me a lovely moment to be grateful for everything that my family has done, and then also just really understand the hardships that they had to navigate in ways that I don't have to worry about, or I didn't have to go through, because they did that right. And it's you talk about this in your book, too, of just the the sacrifice as many Asian immigrants, and, you know, sacrifice and just work to provide for for their families. And they do this in specific ways, and depending on the the time they emerged into this world and or immigrated into the United States, those those types of sacrifices looked different. The messages they communicated look different based on the level of need right for safety and security?
Yeah, absolutely. We think about the survival that our parents and, you know, elders had to focus on just for us to have the privilege to do this healing work, it really is incredible.
It is and again, speaking to just like those reflective questions to really sit with at the end of each chapter and really take a moment to just to just pause. I think we to about the self care and the moving through fast. I mean, you talk a lot about and I know this of you, as someone who works and hustles and does all the things, and I feel very similar to you in that regard, where we always got multiple things moving, multiple things happening, because that's what we do. And. Kind this idea that, do we always have to do that? Do we always have to carry on that level of hustle, that level of striving for if we don't actually understand what, where that's coming from? And so what was that like for you to in compiling this and organizing this to reflect on your own work ethic, your your hustle, your your your bad ass Ness, because that is what it is. You're a badass, and so what was that like to sit with and as you're putting this together?
That's very kind. Thank you. You know, I think for me, it was recognizing where this comes from, where does this drive, where does this hustle come from? And that I can choose to sort of give myself a space to rest, because I don't always have to hustle. I don't always have to be, you know, the boss in the room. I can also be soft and feminine, but relentless. And so, you know, we are entering our softest but most relentless era in 2025 so for me, it's about balance. It's about recognizing when it's time to work and then also when it's time to rest, and finding what that looks like and how that shifts, day by day, week by week, even moment to moment. And so sometimes it is the hustle time, and sometimes it is just soft time. And even now, I haven't figured it out, if I'm quite honest, you know, in the spirit of transparency, I still have moments where it is just a hustle day and I feel like I'm always checking emails. I'm checking emails when I'm out to dinner, when I'm with Family, when I'm with my kids, and I always say my biggest Flex is having a partner that says, I love you, do what you have to do, but also I love you. What are you doing? And
I love
you will lovingly call me out and say, but didn't you just write about this? Like, I wonder what it would look like for you to just put your phone down and have this moment with our family, because our kids are doing this thing, and you're kind of missing it, and I have to be like, Oh my God. Like, I did just write about this, and I'm still trying to break this particular pattern, one that I'm still kind of working on, and I have more awareness of, but that's the point of the book, right? It's like this growth, this process, is lifelong, and it requires us to understand from where this pattern comes from, and then to what extent do we want to choose that pattern in this moment,
yes, and how is it used, and all those components. And, you know, I talking about scarcity mindset, I would love to spend some time there, because that is honestly where the reflective component for me, at least got I was like, someone put, put, put their foot on the gas pedal. In my brain, just a going with this idea and this experience of, you know, how, how our families may have experienced this, and what came from those things and and so what was that like for you to to share some of your own kind of learning, some of your own journey of experiencing and or getting messages around scarcity mindset?
So that one was a tough one, because those are messages that I've heard my whole life. I am an immigrant, but I'm in that really tricky generation where I have all my memories, mostly from the US I moved here when I was two, and I have some sort of like recollections when I was younger, but sort of hard to know whether those are my own, and whether those are imparted into me absolutely. But the scarcity mindset ones were interesting, because those are the same ones that in me drive my hustle. It's this fear, it's this worry that I won't have enough, or that I have to do more, or that if I take a rest now, I'm going to miss some opportunity, and so that's a really good example of a pattern that does serve a purpose. It works for us in some way, so we continue it. And there are moments when we really need to turn the volume down on that. But I think that the idea of embracing abundance is so powerful, the idea that there will always be another opportunity. It might not be the same opportunity, but there will always be another one. And so really grounding ourselves in that reality is a really helpful strategy to begin letting go of those scarcity mindsets and moving toward abundance mentalities.
Yes, because, to your point, well, it's interesting, right? This idea that it there will always be another opportunity, and because of how ingrained some of these the scarcity mindset can be, it's hard to believe that that's true. Yeah. Right? It's hard to believe that this moment has presented itself. I must lean in. I must do this. Whereas, you know, for our families, those, those that scarcity mindset may have looked so different, and so for you, what was something that you learned from your I don't want to call them participants, necessarily your partners and storytellers, thank you. What was something you learned about their experiences with scarcity mindset that really resonated with you?
You think for me, realizing that we are all more alike than different, and I think that those are the same messages that I would hear if I had any storyteller, regardless of racial or ethnic identity. And you know, between you and I and now all of the thoughtful counselor listeners, if this book does well, I'm kind of curious what it would look like to do something similar with more people, with more diverse storytellers to see, like, where's the overlap, and what does this look like, and how does this present for this community or for this one, and what do we have in common? And kind of, where is the shared ground here? Because I think that that's some really powerful work that I would be willing to take up and do at some point.
At some point, well, I know you would 100% you would, you're like, I need to challenge this pattern right now, so, but yes, to your point of allowing seeing how this one encourages others to reflect and sit with their own historical histories, um, historical stories and family narratives, etc, and how that resonates for them. Because as me, as I shared with you this book, really, really hit, really hit hard and really hit home. And again, I don't have any family lineage that are from Asian communities, and yet, I still found so many parts and components that were able to, just like weave so nicely in my own history and reflect on some of those. And so to everyone out there, get the book. Get the book. Read the book, enjoy the book. Rate, review, subscribe. I don't think subscribe, you know what I mean. But do it another layer to this that you talk about. That was Mike, again, when I talk rattled, I was rattled by this. You talk about the conspiracy of silence. And yes, oh my goodness. When, when you, when I read that, I was like, that's what that's That's it. It contextualized a component of my lived experience in a way that I was before, frankly fucking upset about and annoyed that my family continued to do it. And then I read, and I was like, Oh, wait, never mind. That makes a lot of fucking sense. I get it now.
It's, it's this, you know, it's this sort of phenomenological reality that until we have a label to describe our experiences, that experience remains invisible. And so that's one of the moments in the book that I hope to be able to capture this thing that tends to happen for many communities, many families, many people that we've sort of noticed here and there, that we haven't quite been able to hold space for and say, This is what that is. And for a lot of us, that's what it is. It's the conspiracy of silence, this, this sort of lack of storytelling that exists and gets passed down through families of generations, because parents don't talk about what happened in our families, because they want to protect their children, but the children internalize that silence is shame, right? Oh, there's this sort of combination of hope and fear, the hope that I am doing right by my kids, because I'm afraid that if they knew what happened, it could hurt them. But then the way that we internalize those messages can be really harmful when those stories are not shared
exactly and how that continues just in in what is shared as as you age and grow within the same family and and yes, and all those things that are left unspoken, it's you we fill in the blanks our brains are beautiful in that way and also harmful, because we get we internalize them in Various ways, and may be so far from from accurate, but how are we to know any different? Absolutely, yeah, yeah. And I think there's power to again, this bridging the gap, to counter the conspiracy of silence, to say, as adult children, going toward going to the immigrant parents and saying, hey. Right? I know you went through some stuff, and I know some of that stuff may be hard to talk about, and I want to learn more. I want to know more about you and and how you navigate, how you had to navigate the world, because I love you and I care about you, and this is an important part of your history.
Yeah. So one of the things that I am curious about that might come up in those conversations is I wonder about the parent's willingness to shift their role from parent to like sort of friend or peer. And so if you find that, when you ask those questions to your parent, they say, Oh, don't worry about it, honey. I did what I did to take care of you, and, you know, I did what I had to do to survive, to get our family where they are today. I did the best I could, and they sort of minimize, minimize, minimize. If you feel like it's the time and you have the connection, and they have this space to stay on them and say, Yes, thank you. And I really want to know Yes, I appreciate what you did, and I want to hear your story. Yes, I hear you. And these are the kinds of things that I want your grandchildren to know. And so really invite them to share their stories and communicate that you're ready to hold space, because I think the temptation for immigrant parents of adult children is still to protect is still to maintain the conspiracy of silence. That's their pattern that remains,
I snapped, yes, that is a pattern that remains so true and to be able to say all the things you just did, to say yes, that pattern may remain, and let's, let's explore it. I want to explore this because the thing of, the thing about that you were discussing, and to me, just says that resonates, is there we have so much respect for our our elders, right, or our family members, and kind of their decisions to not share and to be able to still kind of push that a little more, a little push that a little in into, I'm still curious. I'm still curious. I think has a lot of power, because, you know, we're, these are, these are important aspects of the of these people who raised us and helpful to make sense of how we internalized and how we made sense of our own sense of worth, sense of lovability, all those attachment messages, I think, to to the what I loved about where you put that in the book is now, as We know all these things. We know about scarcity mindsets, we know about conspiracy of silence, we know about some of these, these components that our families may have, how, how those things may have shown up. Here's how that all connects to messages with as it relates to attachment. Here's how some of your styles of attachment and strategies you employ in relationships with self and others come from right? There's a there's a way to make sense of this in a practical way. And I think you did a beautiful job. And I love your humor in the book, because you'll be like reader, you're wondering, why are we talking about this? Well, let me tell you, no. I love that part because I love those parts because it it again. It's like there's a reason why I'm talking about this, right? I'm not just filling pages. No, read, follow, there's a point. And then you, and you the way you explain it. I appreciate. And for those of you who are who don't know much about attachment theory. Guess what? This is a great intro. And then you talk about Levine's book and et al and those components as well. But I just like how you grounded it to make sense of your own messages that you received attachment, attachment messages, how your own attachment frame and view of self and view of other and then also how that just applies to so many individuals.
Yeah, so you'll notice that the attachment stuff is in the middle. And that was on purpose, because for me, what that represented sort of metaphorically, but also now literally, was how attachment is at the heart of everything. Attachment becomes the heart of this book. It's right in the middle. It's sort of contextualizing and grounding and driving the messages, driving the relationships, driving the workplace behaviors and all the things because attachment, once you understand attachment, you can't unsee it. You can't listen to a song without thinking, ooh, sia is disorganized or absolutely avoidant. So you've all of these sort of messages that now you can't unsee. And so attachment is at the heart and the core of everything, and I wanted to make that clear in the book.
And you do so. Yeah, amazing, incredible. And again, as an attachment therapist, I just appreciated it myself. As I saw the child, I was like, Oh, I'm mentoring this. Let's see where it goes.
So I know you have a history in MFT and emergent family therapy, and so part of me, you know, I don't, I didn't have that training. I went and got that on my own, sort of in my program. And, oh, wait, were you not MFT training
too? No, LPA, technically, see, or see my rehab counselor by background. And then I entered my doc program in counsel ed, and then found attachment theory there. I didn't I was really exploring theory. And that is where I really dived in. And then I, similar to, I got all my external training myself. And yeah, so
I because you're so good at what you do, if you listeners, if you don't know about the DR Joey Tabia, then you need to look into him, because he is, like, so strong in this area, in this field. And so check them out. Do the Google, do the Google Scholar,
do the Google, do the Google. So
I think about attachment. I think about you. So I just assumed that's I just assumed that you had the training because you're so strong in it,
well, you're very sweet. And, yeah, no, same. I assume we, you know, something we were passionate about, we explored, and that's just a space I've stayed in, clinically and in many ways in research, that's very much the framework I operate under. And so I really, I just, yeah, you're grounded in a way that I think helps. Because here's the thing, the Levine book, the living at all attached is really, it has a very specific framework. I mean, it was written by white people. So it, it is, it is very heteronormative. And so the way you just kind of in embrace, embrace us, I would say, as readers, and take us into this journey. You make it so applicable from a cultural lens, and that really resonate and make so much sense. And I think the reader will be like, Oh, crap. Oh my, you know. Or if they maybe knew about it, they'll be reminded and be like, Oh, here's some patterns that still remain. Let's let me work on it. And so, no, I think the applicability was really lovely. I want to go to because in your book, you picked very specific stories to share about yourself, about childhood, and many of them you start with kind of this, or the, you know, just a day starts breakfast and or you're on a school bus and you're somewhere, and We'll talk about that one in a second. But these moments are special because they tell the reader about you. These are very specific to you. And so what was it like to pull on these memories, and how did you select them among others that you have?
That is such a good question. So the way that I pulled the memories, it was really sort of this, this process of writing this book was, was a really interesting one, because I think everyone's book writing process looks different. For mine, it was, what does the book want to be? What does the book need to be, and then how much of that do I feel called and capable to do well and thoughtfully? And so as I thought about what came next, I would read the chapter that I had just written, or one that I written before, and I would think, what's left like, Where? Where else does this need to go to feel rounded and comprehensive, where folks will feel held and not wonder, well, what about this thing? So I would sort of imagine, if this was something that I was reading, what would I be curious about next? What's the part that's missing? And then I would sort of notice, what's the what's the memory, what's the thought? What's the story behind that next piece, and then that was the story that ended up being in the beginning of the book,
I got chills. I'm like half of my body has just shared that. Because they, those, those spoke so they they were so profound in it really, like propelled the chapter into the specific topic and or area that you were going to discuss. And, you know, sitting, sitting with it was, it was one of those things I know, I've, I've known you, and so to sit with little Stacy and to like, imagine you in those in those moments and experiences they I would say it, it was a layer of vulnerability that I felt very honored and special just to read. And so for those readers who know you, you know, I think that's just again, a it's a beautiful piece. Then, um. That people have access to. Yeah, I it was, it was really impactful. And, you know, and some of the things that you described related to, I, the one that's very vivid is you on a school bus and with a friend and someone who you aligned with, because you're like, oh my god, someone who looks like me, you know, in a predominantly white area. And just what that brought up for me as a, as a, as a brown person, as a Mexican American person, and just thinking, Oh my gosh. Like, how many of these moments have I ignored growing up? Of the things I was seeking, I was seeking community. I was seeking to to find people who who I didn't have to hide or feel, you know, the things I maybe didn't really understand at that age, right, at a young age, but yet still sought right. And I think that story for that, when you readers, when you get there, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about, you know. And if, guess what, if you, if you are from the a majority, you know, white community, no worries, you'll still find components within that that sit with you in a way that just puts you in a space of reflection. Because it is, it is profound, how young we are when we think about these things and seek these things without understanding right of what that actually means when it comes to a sense of belonging, a sense of community. And so, yeah, I I just was, that's one I think that will stay with me.
Thank you for sharing that. I almost found myself getting tearful, um, you know, just thinking about, think this point in my life, my my goal is to become the kind of person that younger Stacey would have gone to for comfort. That's lovely. And wouldn't that be a beautiful thing if all of us, you know, worked to become the kinds of people that our younger selves would have gone to for comfort,
absolutely accessible, responsive, emotionally engaged versions of ourselves,
ones that would love the younger fragmented parts that we thought we had to be to be loved, the younger fragmented parts of ourselves that thought that we were too loud, too queer, too bossy to everything and to realize that we are already whole and lovable as we are. And for
me, your book allows a lot of those to a lot of that healing to occur and or to continue, for many folks and new and in ways that we may not have considered before again, the things that you're talking about, the things that the patterns that remain, the that can that some of those things that remain keep our younger selves from seeing our current adult versions as inaccessible, right as we might not yet be people that we want to go to for comfort and how We can become that far younger versions of ourselves, those fragmented parts of that just want to feel more whole, that we strive to feel more whole and secure within ourselves, to then feel secure with others.
Yeah, that's all grounded in attachment, right? Like I think about, I think about this story that I heard Gabor Mate once share about how as people, we really have two drives, and that drive is authenticity and connection. And there's reasons for this, right? So when it comes to mammalian animals, we need to be attached. We need to be able to have a caregiver that will feed us, keep us warm, keep us safe, because we are little meat sacks as babies and we're helpless. We can't feed ourselves, we can't walk, we can't do anything, really. So we have this drive for attachment and connection, and then we have this other drive for authenticity, this need to be ourselves, to be able to express and be creative and to feel grounded in love for who we are, and if given the choice and if having if, if we have to make a choice between sacrificing connection or authenticity, we will always sacrifice authenticity to preserve connection, And that's why we find ourselves in sometimes unhelpful relationships and patterns where we're preserving this relationship at the expense of our ability to be our whole loved self.
Absolutely yes. Let that sit with you, listeners and future readers of this book. The book comes out January 7, 2025 pre ordered on Amazon, on any platform that is selling it. Pre order it, get it now. It is a wonderful book, and really speaks to, I would say, so many of us out there. Amber and really can open doors for more healing in ways that we did not anticipate, which is beautiful.
Thank you. Yes, yes, please check it out. This book is for you. This book is a love letter to you. Listener. I hope you recommend it to your students, your clients, your friends, your family, your community, your people, because I really want this to be a gift.
Yes, well, I wanted, I want to thank you for one sharing this with me. I I'm a grateful reader and grateful friend, and I'm just excited to see what, what this does for so many people out there, and I hope that people share what they how they're impacted with you, because I know as an I know as someone who you have published so much, so much. You know those things go out there. You may never hear about how it actually had a personal impact. You might just see stats, numbers, how if it was, how many times it was cited, etc, but this, this is different. This, you actually get to interface with readers in a very personal way. And so I hope you get to see that, that this, that you, what you have created, what you have written, matters, and that it it has heart. Always said heart like I'm back at home. It has heart. It has us. It has a life of its own that I hope many people are touched by, because I definitely was, and I am grateful to have learned as much as I have, as well as to have reflected as much as I have, and it has brought excitement to what I'm going to be doing in a few days when I go home, because this is being recorded before Christmas, to see what, where that takes me further in terms of understanding these patterns that still exist within my family system, and in some ways that as a family, that can start some healing in a way that just just, it's an opportunity, and I'm excited for it, and it's because of you. So I want to thank you so much. Stacey, thank
you. Thank you for trusting with trusting you with the conversation, and for your willingness to share your story and how it's impacted you. I cannot wait to hear how your trip back home goes.
We'll see All right, listeners, get the book. Get it now. Do it. You'll be grateful for it. So something I wanted to ask, I want to ask folks that I speak with, is, what's in session? This is you have 30 seconds to tell me what's in when it comes to counseling, when it comes to research, when it comes to supervision, what are things that are in in terms of the counseling world? So Stacy, what's in session? Tell us,
okay, I think what's in session, what's in what's hot, what's sexy is counselors and mental health professionals who are entering their healing era. So we are no longer putting off our own healing at the expense of our own care. We are no longer centering everyone else's comfort at the expense of our own. We are no longer engaging in self abandonment. We are realizing that no is a whole sentence, and then we are giving ourselves permission to do the work we need to be happy, healthy, whole
and well, 10 seconds. More. 10 seconds more.
Yes, you have 10 seconds more. And and we do more with intention. And so that means taking a break, taking a nap, and recognizing that collective care is care
done and what's out of session. What do we got to get rid of? What do we have to let go of? What is something that based on everything that you have learned and worked on and have figured out that you're like, Yeah, we gotta get this out. What's out of session?
Okay, what's out of session is using Eurocentric, Western traditional models of healing and theory without breaking it down in a culture responsive, trauma informed and intersectional way, so we can no longer afford to use these theories indiscriminately based on with whom we're working without first decolonizing it and making sure that it fits and is appropriate and evidence based for that group, for that community, and making sure that we are seconds
engaging in culturally comforted care done and thank you for being a part of the thoughtful counselor.
Thanks again for tuning into the thoughtful counselor today. We hope you enjoyed the show. This podcast is made possible through our partnership with concept Palo Alto University's Division of Continuing and Professional Studies, learn more about the thoughtful counselor and some of the other amazing continuing education offerings provided by concept at Palo Alto u.edu forward slash concept, as always, if you are a fan of the show, we would love to hear your feedback and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you see. Subscribe, you.
