Hey everyone, and welcome to another episode of the other things ADHD podcast.
Oh
I am your please, hopefully not catching whatever is making his way through my house co host, Lee Skallerup Bessette
and I am your gosh, I hope everybody else in my house doesn't catch what I currently have co host Amy Morrison also known as did you want or Max Headroom on Twitter?
Oh, that was so awesome. By the way like that Max Headroom was like just like chefs kiss like it was
170 likes and 60 retweets later, it's still rolling its way through.
Yeah, I know. Right? Like it's we could make. I'm gonna say something really insightful. And it's no one's gonna notice. But I get a dress. Rats bedroom. Yeah,
complete dress backgrounds. 35 year old television character. Most people on Twitter were not alive to remember. But every single last one of them who were has now liked my post. Yeah. I mean, it was the jacket, in happier days leave when I was not sick. Yeah, so what are we talking yesterday? Yesterday? Yeah. So what are you talking about today?
Lead. So I think it's been a you know, I mean, it's we sort of sound like broken records, and everything's out. But it's been, you know, it's been rough. It's better off. You're not feeling well, it's November, it's cold. It's that time of the semester when all when everyone is just sort of hit that wall. And at least here in the United States were bare knuckle in it until Thanksgiving. That where we get like a little bit of a break, and then all but then all of a sudden, it's finals. And, you know, it's between the weather and oh, it's daylight savings time. But we have to change clocks this weekend. But you're going to get a
mythical extra hour. But you know, we're going to spend the extra hour on Lee, reading red hot takes you about why Daylight Saving Time sucks. Yeah, if we could just get that out of our lives, we would actually gain that extra hour.
Yeah, and it no matter what, I don't know what it is like. It's whenever we switch the clocks via back or forward. It's always on a weekend where there's a swim meet.
Oh, sure. I mean, potentially have like swim meets every weekend, essentially. No,
no, once a month. Feels like every week. Yeah, it just feels like yes, it really does just feel like every weekend.
Okay, this out here for all of our ADHD peeps listening to this isn't just me. I suspect it's not that it the problem with daylight savings is not necessarily that you have to like, adjust yourself to the jetlag. It is that there are so many clocks in your house and vehicles that you didn't change in the spring. And you've been ashamed of that ever since. And now you're like, Well, thank God, it's just going to switch back. But then you're going to feel what's what you're going to spend what feels like three months from Saturday, trying to get all the clocks onto the correct time. Again, yeah, and just be like, Why am I like this? I'm probably not the only one. So that's, you know, your listener. Same same.
And not to mention the fact again, this idea of time. And when we I remember back to the episode where we talked about routine and it's like, oh, I have to do this again. It's like, did I just change my clocks? Yeah, we just do this
didn't we just didn't the leaves fall off the tree last year shift. Force my rake. Didn't I say last year I was gonna buy a new rake.
Yeah. And then and then it snowed and I was like, I forgot.
Yeah, like snow more snow more because I want the evidence to be hidden until spring. There'll be like a moldy pile of leaves all over my lawn. Yeah, my grass,
which will also make my sinuses absolutely hate me. Allergies Ray. Yeah. So. So it's, it's been we're all struggling. And we've talked a lot about coping mechanisms and strategies and all of that kind of stuff. But every once in a while, every once in a while it just nothing, nothing works.
Sometimes you actually drop all of the balls, right? Yeah. Sometimes you drop all the balls, but they weren't balls, they were knives and you didn't drop them, you through them at your own feet. And right like they will Ulo of people you love, right? Sometimes you don't pull it out of the fire at the last minute. Sometimes you miss the deadline. Sometimes you forget that your kid was supposed to go to a birthday party and you both miss it. Like there are a lot of ways that that coping is an insufficient strategy, right or mitigation is an infant sufficient strategy. So I think we're going to talk today about like what happens when you fail. Right? How do you accept that failure? How do you maybe think about making amends to people that you may have disappointed what could you maybe learn from it and also like how can you forgive yourself? for failure, because I suspect like with everything else, that neurotypical people also fail. But maybe they don't attach the same kind of self narrative to those failures that neurodivergent people do particularly neurodivergent people who did not have the benefit of a diagnosis for much of their lives. And so have a very particular experience of how other people interpret their their failures, have a look, maybe a lot more shame wrapped up in this because we have so much more experience of having failed at things and not having had supports for that. And don't forget
the rejection sensitive dysphoria that comes along with it do
Sure. Nothing says you don't deserve love, and everyone hates you, like recognizing that you have legitimately failed at something that you really did, in fact need to do.
Yeah. And, and also that, um, I mean, for the, again, the ADHD brain, and maybe it's just me, but probably not, you know, they're they're the memes about like, the person lying in bed. And then the brain is like, Hey, do you remember that time? You fucked up? Yeah, eight years ago? Yeah. Right. And so oftentimes, like, there's the the failures, I find it when we've talked about this before, too, but it's like that it very quickly spirals ain't no meltdown, like an ADHD meltdown. So in terms of its spiraling, where it's not just that mistake, and failure in that moment, it is every single other failure and mistake that you have made in your entire life,
and servicing ledger. Yeah, of the strikes against your character, right, that we insist on trying to stuff into the baguette purse we carry with us, but it doesn't fit because it is a multi volume set, reminiscent of those encyclopedias people used to buy. And we also insist not only on dragging them around with us, and exhausting ourselves, but uh, you know, when we are feeling particularly bad, we're like, you know, what would help getting out the big book of failures? And revisiting? Yeah, every single one of them? Yeah, that's not great.
No, no, not great. And I think it's, it's, it is again, like I, I, you know, we I talked in the last episode that like, I knew, I was going to have an epic meltdown failure last last Wednesday, two Wednesdays ago, two Wednesdays ago. And so I just said, No. And I said, we're not doing this, like I, you know, so that, that, that could have been read, as, you know, as another failure, where it's like, well, I didn't get my kids where they're going to go Yeah, but it's also the and it also succeeded in that I didn't have a total and utter meltdown. And, and we all ate food, and we all chilled out. And everybody was everybody was was happy. Or at least not. Maybe everybody wasn't happy. But everybody was not in various phases of breaking down. So I was like, no
one was less unhappy than they might otherwise have been. Because you recognized early that happiness was not a possibility that the evening would produce for you. Right? And yeah, and I think maybe like, what we're thinking about then is like, a sort of defensive driving strategy for our brains, right? So like defensive driving, like Young Drivers of Canada, I took my course, like, I mean, we all did, right. So forgive me, if I don't get the details. Exactly. Right. It was a lifetime ago. But like, the idea is, you know, you don't follow too closely on the highway. Because if you follow too closely, and somebody breaks, you can't avoid hitting them. Right. So there are ways in which defensive driving is about not putting yourself in a position where an accident will be inevitable, right, but does defensive driving. I mean, I think a lot of our podcast is about that about the kind of defensive driving that is meant to prevent the accident from happening. But defensive driving also teaches you, right, like when your car skids on black ice, right? That's already the bad thing has happened. But how can you minimize the negative consequences from that? Right, so don't overcorrect. Right, so they teach you like, lock your eyes on the part of the road you want to go to and just turn your steering wheel that far, don't crank it all the way to the other side. And maybe you're going to go in the ditch or it is better to go in the ditch to swerve away from an animal than to go into the opposing lane of traffic or it is better to hit the animal than to like get in an accident with another car or like plunge over a guardrail and into a lake, right. So there's a way in which defensive driving on the one hand is like, Oh, if you drive like this, you'll never have an accident. But also, like if I also have gone south, here is how not to die. Right? Yeah, here's how to emerge from the failure with like, a dented fender and no broken legs or with a broken leg, but no concussion or with a concussion, but you're not dead. Right. So I guess that's I guess that's what we're going to try to think about today is like defensive driving for when the accident is inevitable. Right. And I think you did it last week, when you were just like, you know, I'm not going to get you all to the places you need to go on time. And if I tried, this is going to get worse. So yeah, I will take your pony faces right now about not going to your activities, but I will not have screamed at you. And we're not on a highway. Right? Yeah. And then we're not going to like wind up going to these things late, angry and also hungry, I'm going to order some food. So at least you have food in your tummies. And no one yelled, everybody's unhappy, but they're less unhappy than they might otherwise.
Yeah. And and then I, you know, at the end of the day after, you know, because because again, it's not just in that moment that everybody is late and, and I'm frantically picking up and trying to feed everyone. And then it's the crushing disappointment afterwards like so, you know, we talked about that crash. Yeah, there is that there is a process, possibly a worse or differently bad crash, right? Where do you because there's the there's the crisis moment, there's the moment of failure, right. And in a minute like that, like in a moment of like, I in a three hour window, I've got to get the kids do different activities, try and figure out what we're going to eat, then pick up the kids from the two different activities, and then get them home and feed them and walk the dog and then get them to bed and make sure. And then, you know, if I had tried to achieve all that, which I would have failed that, right? But it would be like a three hour window of just be amped, right, and pierced and disappointed. And just like oh my god, I'm totally failing at this, like this is awful. And then come home, and then be like, What the fuck did I do that? Right? Like, and then beat myself up for like, not taking the night off. And you know, how have I damaged my children now through that traumatic experience? And like, why is this? And so it's not so. So it's like the almost again, there's like two moments, there's the moment of the failure itself. And then there's that. Like, I think what we're talking about too, is that aftermath that spirals that keeps you away, right? Like you're like not only do I fail, but yeah, things
were bad. And then through my choices and behavior, I made them worse. Yes. Right. And then in trying to fix them, I did not fix the problem. I made the problem worse, created two new problems. And now I am full of guilt and self loathing.
Yeah, yeah, that's all. Yeah. And I just, I mean, I still am pretty proud of myself that I just defensively drove around that I just was like, I'm gonna avoid this. And then, you know, I mean, my daughter's ballet teacher was like, Why did you miss on Wednesday, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, have him call me. I'm like, yeah, he's got like, I'm sorry. And, and again, removed enough from that particular day as well, that if that I'd heard that on on the Wednesday, I probably would have, you know, barely hung on to that one. Right. Like, that's the that's the that's kind of the emergency moment at that point. Yeah. Like, I got no,
no, you would have cried. Yeah, I wouldn't cry. Why are you so late getting here? Yeah. Why
didn't you work harder, or try to arrange something to make sure that your daughter can make it to ballet class? And I'm like, because that takes a lot of executive functioning that I just don't have Alright, dude. Like,
also, also, this is not like the Alvin Ailey Dance Company dress rehearsal before like the opening lit. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, it's go. Yeah, sure. But like, this is like the kind of perspective you can get be like, Oh, the world did not end. Because if we stayed home, skipped our activities at high food and put our pajamas on, right, like, and then you can, like, have a better sense of proportion when someone wants to give you pushback on that. Like, it's really important that she's here every week, like, Yeah, I know. But it's not possible. Also, this is a hobby for us. And I'm paying for this, right, like, I did my best. It's none of your business. Why wasn't there, frankly, right. It's nice to be able to have the time to put together that boundary for yourself.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Because other people will push. Yep. And, you know, again, I coach, I get it, I want my servers to be able to come to practice, but like, you know, again, I get apologetic emails from you know, I get apologetic emails from parents, they know, on my kids gotta leave earlier, all we got to miss this week, because, you know, siblings or this or that, and I'm always like, you know, I get it. I've had those coaches. I know those coaches, but I'm like, Look, my husband goes away on a Wednesday, like, I'm fucked. And I'm one of the coaches. Like, I totally get it. Like, if your other kids have got to be or someone is sick, or something has happened, and it's just, I get you can't I get you're trying your best to get your kids to where they want to go. I get that, like, they want to swim. But I also get the, you know, you're you're human as well. And like, you know, I appreciate letting me know that they're not going to be here but like, you know, don't you don't have to apologize even though I know I do that a lot. But I mean, I wanted I sort of communicate and I'm just like, look, it's okay, like I'm a parent too. I get it like just, you know if when they can be here, that's fantastic. I don't think my son this season. He's supposed to swim three times a week. I don't think he's swimming three times a week once yet this season, maybe once or twice.
These are aspirational goals. Yeah,
exactly. And I'm like, you know, but he's also doing theater and really wants to be in the play and is starting middle school. And so some nights, you know, he just really does have too much homework or has to study for a test. And, you know, I'm, you know, could we have crammed it all in? Sure. Would that have caused them to have a meltdown? Probably? Do I want to have to deal with that? Not particularly if it can avoid it? Like?
Yeah, like I'm thinking, there have lots of things that I have, like, no failed at that there really isn't a lot of excuse for right. I have backed out of publication opportunities that I have committed to doing, and didn't manage to do and should probably have dipped out earlier, but was pushing myself forward with shame. I don't want to be the kind of person who says yes to this, and then doesn't follow through. So even when an editor follows up, and it's like, you know, things are going on in your life. And you can't do this, like, that's okay. I'm like, How dare you accuse me of being a flake right, because I'm not covering, like, what I should be hearing. And that probably is we are engaged in a shared endeavor, right, with shared deadlines and shared goals. And you don't seem to be able to keep up right now with the pace. So if this is not working for your schedule, it would be better for the project, right? If we just put you on the next thing, right. But what I'm hearing is you are a bad person. And we all hate that, which is not really what people are saying, but it's what we hear. And when we have been listening to a lot of Brene. Brown, as you know, so this is like, the cheap version of the Brene Brown podcast is this idea that you
you have to be accountable for the mistakes that you make. And the only way you can be accountable for the mistakes that you make is if you step outside of shame, because stream says like not, I failed at a thing, but I am a failure, right? So it's not like I didn't bring my kids to swim practice or it's not like I didn't hand in my publication it is I am a bad person. So when someone says like you're late with this thing, and I'll be like, so emotionally overwhelmed and defensive and full of shame about that, because I think I am a bad academic. I don't deserve this job. I don't deserve tenure. All the good people who work 10 times harder than me would have got this done. Other people who have more students than me got this done. And again, this is whole story. I'm just telling myself in which I am the protagonist of evil, right. And I'm a bad person, I want to crawl in a hole and sort of let people flagellate me because I deserve it because I'm terrible. This is not solved the problem that the editor has like that is missing a chapter. Right? And like the problem is like yeah, I'm sorry, I overcommitted right. Not I am a bad person, but I am unable to complete this thing. I should have let you know earlier that this was not going to be possible for me so I can be accountable for the thing that I failed to do, because I failed. I said I was gonna do it. And I didn't do it. Right. Yeah. So I need to accept that. And I need to apologize to somebody for that who had every right to expect that I was going to do the thing, right? It diminishes trust, when you you fail to follow through on something for someone and that trust does not get rebuilt by pretending it's still going to be possible for you somehow to do it. Because it's not right. The only way you can start to rebuild that a little bit is to say, I am sorry, right? I am not going to be able to do this thing I have tried, right. I hope we can work together again someday. And here's the name of somebody else who might be able to help me with this as a small sort of like gesture of my goodwill, right? So we're going to fail, and it does have consequences. Sometimes you like have to fail. Of course, I failed some courses in my day. In my defense, I was in the wrong degree. Yeah, right. And I really wanted to double down on it. Like I was like, No, give me all the extensions, like I will somehow learn a semester worth of chemistry in three weeks while taking five new courses like and that wasn't going to happen and, and I would sort of keep myself awake for six months, panicking about my failure to do not just well in this course, but to do anything in this course and try to strategize about how I could get out of it without anybody knowing that I had failed or how I could avoid the failure from happening. But sometimes like the cart is just going to go into the ditch and it will not help you avoid the tree if you close your eyes on the way into the ditch right and so So something I think all of us have the experience of probably is desperately trying to avoid the moment when we have to admit that well and truly we have fucked it up. And there is no getting it back. Right? You know, it could be you promised you were going to make this extravagant birthday cake for somebody and you're going to do it the morning of but then you finally have a good look at the recipe and something needs to be in the fridge for 12 hours. And you're like oh shit Yeah, what do you do? Do you like? Do you like make it anyways and be like, I don't know why it didn't turn out, I tried my best writer to usually say I'm so sorry, right? I misjudged the timing for this, I bought a cake, I will make you this cake another time, right like that, like, I think we all have that experience of like, I really thought I could get this done. And I can't say, oh, I missed this thing that was important, I forgot to do that other thing, or like, I knew I should have written it down. And I didn't, and I miss something important. And I think maybe most of us have a tendency to want to rationalize that sometimes to others, like, oh, this thing happened. And then this other thing happened, oh, I don't even know what's going on, but on the inside to yourself, like, and both of those responses are inappropriate, right, you have to come clean with yourself and with the other person, about the nature and extent of your failure, be sincere in accounting for it and see what you can learn. So like now, I do not offer to do shared administrative tasks with us, I will never volunteer to or accept an invitation to co edit a special issue of anything with anybody ever again, because I tried it once. And it was such an abject failure. I don't know if that person has forgiven me yet. And I really thought I could do it. And I really tried. And he kept giving me more chances. And I kept not taking them. And I have learned something about myself, which is that is not the medium for me, as I did really try and I had to admit to myself, No, I screwed this up. I owe this person an apology, I have wasted their time and my time. And all I can do is try to learn right, I am going into the ditch but I'm not taking my hands off the wheel. Right. And I'm you know, not going to overcorrect and then swerve into traffic, I just need to learn how to get to the other side of this failure. Right?
Yeah. And so I think for me, one of the things that really helped, and we talked about this for like, ADHD medication, right how, what it was like to take medication for the first time, and actually, there was one on the ADHD group or somebody was, you know, share their experience where it's just like, I wish I could have started this sooner, because all of a sudden, everything is just, you know, not as hard and could have been like this. And, you know, I mean, we've talked about that exact that exact thing. And for me, it's been, in part the my depression medication that has helped that a lot where it's just enough, right? Like, it's, it's, it's hard to explain in that same way, a way where, like, it's just enough that I have the strength or, like dopamine, or I'd like to stop myself now, from spiraling completely out of control. Right? Where, whereas, you know, previously like it was it was a, it was almost impossible, right? Like it would it would be, you know, it would I would fuck up. And that would be the shame spiral and all that kind of stuff. And I would only notice it when it was like, I'm on the floor crying. And, you know, literally pulling my own hair out right now because I am so you know, terrible. And I'm like, and then and then part of me is like, huh, huh, this is not a, you know, this is not a measured response to what
is. This is not a measured response. I love this response on the floor pulling my own Harrowed in self injurious ways. Well, screaming I don't deserve to live is not a measured. Yeah. No, it isn't. Right. Yeah.
But But now like, and now I can, that it's just enough that I can I can kind of catch myself and, and take a breath and take a step and and just or a moment I should say and be like okay, you know, what, what do I need to do? What what's going to happen? It's okay. You know, you know, and and I think one of the other things that also we enjoy doing with our ADHD brains is catastrophizing. Oh sure. So, so not only did I did, did I screw up, I'm now going to imagine all of the ways this screw up, is going to ruin my life and ruin the lives of others, right? Like what I said, Right? Where it's like, uh, you know, as I said, right, I'm going to have a breakdown in the car and screaming other drivers and cry and be angry at my kids and angry at the world. And then I'm going to come home, and I'm going to be convinced that I've just ruined my kids lives. Right? Like, again, not a measured response. Right? Yeah. And yeah,
I mean, but there's a kernel of truth in that I think to where catastrophizing can sometimes lead us and and I know sometimes I get spun out about things and I get irrationally upset about stuff and I'm trying to get things done. Like, every week, I try to get my kid, they have to use my second laptop to use Skype to do their virtual art class. And every week, it's like, where's the computer? Why is there no battery? Okay, I gotta find the cord. Oh, no, the other chord with the pluggy thing because the outlets too far away. I now we're late and my kid is anxious and sometimes like getting licked. And then you open it in Skype is like Skype wants to install a helper tool. Now you have to like go, I was like, fuck off Skype, but I'm, like, really angry. And like, once my kid put their hand on my shoulder and said, like, It's okay mom. Like, if if you need to, I can just miss my lesson, I thought, Oh, my kid is giving something up. Because I am having an irrational over the top response to a minor irritant when I'm mostly mad at myself, because I should have started looking for this computer 10 minutes ago, and I thought, She's they're trying to parent me right now, because I have out of control. And now I'm ashamed of myself for that response. And I sort of said, like, you know, I'm sorry, I'm like, I'm blowing off steam right now yelling at this computer. And I'm sorry, this must be upsetting for you. To witness right, and I probably should have started this a bit sooner. I just really hate you know, getting this like stupid software message that's like, I just want to be on my call. I don't update. I keep getting updates for Adobe Flash. I'm like, Adobe Flash was like the ghost of updates that they got rid of that,
like they got rid of
that? Why are you still asking me to update I might get you're gonna, I'm gonna update
it. And then you say, and I updated it. So I can also say that we're deleting this, right? Like, exactly like all
all spun out again about this. And I could see the effect it was having on other people around me sometimes. And so when we catastrophize, or when we do like what I used to describe to my kid when they were younger, because they did this is a rage tornado, you're upset about one thing, you're like, I failed the math test. For example, I failed the math test, I'm upset about that. I'm upset. I failed the math tests. I know the math class. And also, I don't read as well as the other kids and I don't read as well as the other kids. And I failed a math test. And I don't know how to ride a bicycle. And I failed the math test. And I don't read as well as the other kids. And nobody likes me and I failed the math test. And like it's just a tornado that yeah, like it's getting bigger, the wind is getting bigger, the tide is working up everything. It's everything and getting more destructive as it goes along. And so we had a rule at my house from when our kid was little, which was you can only get mad about one thing at a time. Right? About the math, you're only allowed to be upset about the math test, I will not Brook any further failures. I'm like, I could only handle one of your failures. Like we can talk about your inability to ride a bike later, but later, it's not going to be salient, right? Because what you're really upset about later because
you don't give a shit anymore. Right? Right.
Like, yeah,
does it matter because
like you are actually looking for like, maybe it's not a rage tornado, maybe it's a rage bonfire, and you're trying to make it the biggest bonfire in the world, and you're just looking for more self hatred to throw onto that fire of self loathing. Because like, this is the same reason, you know, that we claw like at our skin, or this, these self injurious stems that we do when we get emotionally upset is because the feeling is so big, you're trying to find a way to get rid of it, right? And so like sometimes the strategy of catastrophizing is I'm going to have such an awful feeling that it will burn itself out faster, right, like other strategies or like self injury or deflection, which is about getting that energy out of your body that sometimes you're like, if I just feed the energy, and I feel as terrible about myself as it is possible to feel it'll burn itself out quicker. This doesn't work because what you're doing in those situations is you're actually avoiding dealing with the specifics of the one failure, right? And it's like white lady tears. This is what this is like, because it centers you, right?
I feel so bad. I didn't know that I
had implicit bias and I just can't live with myself. They're their white lady. It's okay. Right, like so. So sometimes when we have what feels like these really authentic, emotional outbursts about self loathing, and what a bad person we are, we're actually saying, I had no control over that behavior. I am a bad person, and I'm always going to be a bad person. And now we're requiring other people to tell us that we're not bad people. Yeah, that's not the conversation, right? The conversation is I did a thing, or I didn't do a thing or I broke a thing or I neglected a thing or I forgot a thing. I am sorry, I will try to change my behavior or change the way I commit to things. Let's all move on instead of the rage tornado, you know, the self loathing bonfire, the massive emotion because what we're really trying to do there is avoid the work of admitting that there was an action that we did or didn't do. An action was the problem and we need to say sorry, and then move on because we have real problems crafting. What did you call it? Like a moderate response?
Yeah. Measured This measure is not a measured response.
It's not a measured response, right? So it's like, oh, no, you dropped the milk on the floor. We don't have to like burn the house down and never come back. You just like get a mop, because that's not a sexy, right? It's better to sort of like oh reviewer to hated my paper. And I knew I didn't put enough work into it. And they said, it didn't cite these things. And it's because I'm a bad researcher, and I haven't read enough stuff, and they're gonna take my PhD away, and my students hate me and like, now you're lying on the floor crying, nobody gets suffer, and you're, like, completely emotionally spun out when it's like, just why not just resubmit it somewhere else? Right? Like, yeah, it's just easier to let that big rage tornado feeling build in the same way. We were talking in the last episode about that adrenaline rush of aiming for an exception. Yeah, I was gonna say, because you said there you like, well, sometimes I kind of, I want to get too excited. Yeah. Right. Because it feels good. And like, I think our big emotions sometimes as much as we don't enjoy them, when we're having them, we sort of caught them. Yeah, we've developed patterns where we allow ourselves to get spun into this vortex or bonfire of self loathing where we are powerless to change anything about ourselves. And we consider ourselves worthless, which is just a way of avoiding the relational work of apologizing for the failure and trying to do better. Does that make sense? No, I don't think we're intentionally doing it.
No, no, no. And again, it's patterns of behavior. Right. And it's, it's, it's, again, thinking about, and I think this is this is good, too, because as we were talking before, is, is that it's one thing to recognize it in ourselves. And we've developed coping strategies, right? We've developed these strategies over the years. I mean, this is we're both in our 40s This is something that is taken us a long time to figure out and, but, but again, for neurotypical people, it part of the problem is, is that is it's hard to find people to talk to about these kinds of things, because it just doesn't make sense to anybody else. Right? And then it's like, you know, like we said, like, the neurotypical people was, like, just stop, like, just don't do that. And you'd like, oh, okay, thanks. That's yeah, that's exciting. Yeah,
maybe neurotypical people are more likely to fail and things that other neurotypical people fail out in like, oh, yeah, like, we've all been there, buddy. Yeah. Whereas like, you're like, I miss so many dentist appointments that my orthodontist refuses to see me anymore. They're like, did you put in your calendar? Like, yeah, yeah, they're like, this is not relatable, like, what is wrong with you? Yeah, kind of thing, right? So or even.
But even if they do make a mistake, because I mean, again, it's academia even without ADHD, academics overcommit, or things happen and all of that, but it just, you know, he missed a deadline. Oh, well, I feel like wait, that you could do that. Like, you could just be okay with that. Yeah. what
everybody does, it is fine. But like it happens, like, get over it.
Yeah. And so that, that makes it you know, and again, that sort of feeds into, especially if you're undiagnosed, that just feeds into the whole, like, well, then they're clearly there's something really wrong with me. Because like, I can't do this thing that everybody else seems not only be able to do the thing, right, like, make a deadline. But when somebody makes the same mistake that I make, they can get over it. And I can't, right, or in the same way with that, because Because again, like it's it's a it's not a blame thing. It's like because it asking a neurotypical person and like, how did you get over that? And like, they literally would just be like, I just did, right? Like, there's no, they're like, I don't there's no process. It's just, it gets just done. And you're like, huh, how does this like people who only have one thought in their head at one time, like,
work? I got distracted playing in my piano recital Lee. It's like, a four minute song. And in the middle of playing it, I thought, well, thank God, my hands know what I'm doing. Because I'd like just drifted. Yeah, somewhere else. Oh, playing recital. I wonder like, how much of our like our responses like that, that are like I'm a bad person, and how did the people do it? And why can't I get this thing done is a little bit of internalized ableism, in the sense that, yeah, that I think for me, for a long time, I would rather berate myself, for being a bad person and think if I was just a different person, I could be the type of person who, like write stuff down on a calendar and goes there, or remembers to practice the piano instead of like, admitting that maybe some of the things that other people could do, and I wish I could do, I'm just never going to be good at and yeah, but I don't have to admit to myself that I should stop trying to edit collections of writing, right, because it's something that I would people I admire, do it. And I think that I should be able to do it. And I think sometimes great ideas for what we could like, have themes for and I want to be that kind of person who's making connections with others. And so I will keep trying and failing at it and blaming my character rather than saying, like, I have a disability that actually make some tasks just not possible. Yeah, for me to do in the same way. You know, that I gave up, gymnastic. Um, I was never good at gymnastics. But I had to give it up because I have like, incredibly lacks joints, dislocating things, and I was not able there to say it's because I'm a bad person. And if I tried harder, it was just like, physically, it was not possible for me to continue to pursue that hobby without grievous injury to myself, right. And so like, I wonder if the ways that we have tantrums about like we have, you basically needed a time turner last week to get everybody to the things that they needed to get to on time, that's not possible. But you're inclined to want to like blame yourself, like as if you could just finesse things in such a way that you would never have to fail at this. And we tell ourselves because other people can do it, and they wouldn't fail. That's why I'm a bad person, because I will if I become a better person be able to do but sometimes we do have disabilities, some things are just not possible yet for us to do. And it's really hard to admit that. And we would rather scratch until we believed that we admit, not only that we made a mistake, but that that mistake is a function of a disability that we have. And that that task is not something we're ever going to be able to succeed at. Yeah, but not every task. But like, sometimes you just have to say like, I am never going to be a marathon runner, like, you know, because I've had two knee surgeries, and I have to give up that dream. But like, sometimes people will run until they need another knee surgery, and they're actually on crutches and they can't walk for a month, because we're so unwilling to accept the reality of their own embodiment, that they would rather cause themselves a great deal of further unnecessary harm than give up that vision of who they could be. And I think maybe we do that to ourselves, too.
Oh, definitely. And there's also the, the, you know, when we talked about this, particularly in North America, the, the, the Bootstrap, right, and if you just try hard enough, you can do anything, and it's all about work, right? Like, if you put the work in, if we put the work in, right, and I think it's the same thing with with sports, like I did, I did do that to myself, like I when I was in, you know, my senior year of high school, I blew out both my knees, and I kept swimming and ruining both my shoulders to be greatly didn't kick and then ended up with bursitis and both my shoulders, and, you know, and but I wasn't going to stop swimming. Like I was not going to stop swimming. Um, that that year, I stopped swimming afterwards. But it but like, if if I just Well I can overcome this, right, like, this is this is like we love, we love the narrative of overcoming, right? We love the triumphant underdog, regime X, Y and Z that, you know, I think that that plays into it as well. Right? That that absolute good, you know, it's it's ableism it's the sort of bootstrap Protestant work ethic mentality, it's our society's you know, holding these narratives of overcoming up as the ideal, you know, that, that, that makes you heroic that that makes you a good person. And so, you know, all of that plays in right. So it's like, it's disability, but it's also Western culture and, and it just gets, you know, it does it gets it gets to be overwhelming. And then we just, you know, we just keep hitting our head, what is it? The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results? Yeah, like,
I wonder if there's a little bit in there too, of stereotype threat like, particularly if people Oh, yeah, what your diagnoses are, yeah, like, well, I'm the only professor in my unit, you know, who is out about my autism and my ADHD. So if I like flake out on two meetings in a row, because I forgot to put them in my calendar. I have to strenuously rationalize and excuse that behavior because since everybody knows that I have ADHD I have let the team down, right? By behaving in this very stereotypically ADHD way right. So in the same way that many members of minority groups when they find themselves being thought only in a given situation, feel that they are the representative of their entire group and that there is no room like not just for error, but for simple humanity, right, because, you know, everywhere I go, in my professional life now I am an advocate for the value of ADHD academics. and like how inspirational we can be and how we overcome so many challenges, but like, you know, I have ADHD and I screw things up because I know added knowing how long things take. And yeah, remembering to go places on time. And if it's not in front of me, sometimes I don't do the work. Yep. Right. And that, even if I have as much self awareness in the world as I have, and therapy and medication and like these, like hacks and workarounds, and like life coaching tips, there is still a way in which my disability is disabling. And it leads me into failure. And all I can do is apologize. But I'm still in my heart always trying to be the best ADHD academic that ever lived. And when I failed to do that, I feel I've let everybody down. And I hate myself and I'm really trying to find a way to, to square that circle.
Yeah, no, I totally get that first. Before I knew I had ADHD. For me it was I, I did have blonde hair. It's not as blonde anymore, but like, I was always like, I'm just some dumb blonde. Like, that's all. And I'm, I've always had a very curvy figure. And so I was, if you took if you looked at me, and I I'm all I also look very young. And so coming into a Ph. D program, I was very young at the time was one of the youngest people in there, but also looks young, didn't look like a kind of stereotypical academic right, which is basically an old white male. But nonetheless, I was always trying I was always on guard for myself is like, I don't want to be the flighty blonde. I don't want to be perceived as the, you know, people can roll their eyes at me and just say oh, just a dumb blonde or she just floozy, which is a weird term, because that's Oh my god, you got that like,
right from 1952? Yeah,
no, one can see that Judge channeling my grandmother right now, let's be honest. Um, but but that was that and so a lot of the the the kind of ADHD things that I did it was like, I kind of what that is, I don't want to be like the stereotypical absent minded girl woman right or like the the flighty dumb blonde right the depths right sometimes some of the he liked it, like being the Space Cadet sort of having trouble focusing, you know, the the place tears, because you're just got someplace else.
Oh, what are you trying to me? Last 20 minutes? Yeah. What was I supposed to? What are we talking about? Yeah.
Wait, am I in class right now? What's up?
Wednesday.
You know, and so I was like, again, and it's and that was my, like, I wanted to make sure that people knew I belonged, that they took me seriously that all of these kinds of things that I was, you know. And so and now it's the same kind of thing, right? Like, now I understand it better. But now I've just transferred like you've said that that sort of angst into another area. So I actually have a meeting it too.
So I remember, are you flexing on me? Right? Oh,
I didn't know I got a calendar notification. In the corner of my screen. You don't see me pointing to it on zoom right now. But I guess he lets you see. But yeah, and but that yes, I just got a little notification noise that I looked up to see what it was that it says that I have another meeting. I think
that was a remarkable flex that you like have set your calendar and your and your notifications. I'm like, wow, I have a slip of paper with some stuff written down on it somewhere in Oh, I've got so
I've got that you got that too. Don't Don't get me wrong, but like, it helps that we didn't use a common like, and this is something that I've found is a lot better in staff work environments than faculty work environments, is that we are very good at calendar invites and calendaring. Right. So yeah, so this is something that like now or since COVID. And everybody was remote faculty got much better at this, but it used to be like, you know, is your calendar up to date and faculty would look at me like my calendar. I have a calendar. Yeah, they're like Emily, see when I talk to you about that? Yeah. But but we are very good. This is the thing that I've always appreciated about this staff culture is that like, and some people, I tell people, I'm like, just find an open spot on my calendar and send me a calendar invite. That's fine, it's fine. It shows up and I go where the calendar invite tells me to write like if it's not on if you know and that reminds me I've got a I've made an appointment for my daughter.
rubbing your eyes again. We but as we go or Upshot has to be that maybe this is a topic we return to like I just I wanted to acknowledge the extent and seriousness of some of the failures that I have brought into my life. professionally and personally, and that through many years of bitter experience, I have learned that trying to become a different person, or catastrophizing or rage, tornado wing, or getting up in my feelings and withdrawing or opening up my big book of grievances about myself, like, none of that has ever actually helped. And that what we need to all learn, and I am still learning and maybe some of our listeners have learned this better than we have, and can give us some tips about how to drive defensively when the accident is already happening. Like I think,
yeah, and what I would like to talk about next week, I think we should come back to this is, how do we help our loved ones? Because we are both not only parents, you know, not only do we have or we neurodivergent ourselves, but we as we've talked about parent neurodivergent children who have some of the very much same tendencies as we do. And so, you know, you you shared one strategy where it's, you know, one thing at a time, get mad about one thing at a time, one get mad about one thing at a time, but how do we you know, how do we do it so that what if we both get pulled into it? Just been having that experience? And how do we pull ourselves out? And how do we, how do we work to
repair?
Yeah, no, I know, not nothing, no, nothing heavy, like at all This is fine. It's all fine. Oh, next week, behind me failure. Part Two,
the kid is basically it's like the son of failure, right? Because our kids
wah, wah. But, you know, but I just fail.
No. But, but I think like this is because there's all of this, right? In parenting literature and all of that you want to give them you know, you want to teach them resilience, which is a whole other coded class, you know, racialized thing. But but, you know, we do want to give them strategies, right? Even if it's not resilience, we do want to help them develop their own strategies, but also sometimes, as a parent, we have to step in. Yeah, right. Like there are like they are still children. And we are technically the grownups.
We can't podcast right now. We know. The minute I know, over anticipate I'm not
I know. Don't forget, don't forget to listen to the podcast. I was gonna say before we record so he remember what we're gonna talk about.
Part Two, we're like part two of what? Oh, whoops. Yeah. Okay. Next week, everyone.
So I'm Lee Skallerup Bessette. I'm ready writing on Twitter.
And I am Amy Morrison, did you want on Twitter?
You can always email us please do at all the things adhd@gmail.com You know, tag us on Twitter DMS on Twitter. Actually DM me on Twitter. And I'll just pass along to Amy eventually. Yeah. But But. But yeah, share your, you know, share what you've done and what's worked for you for coping strategies and driving defensively? Because we'd love to hear them. We're always you know, this is this is probably what you've tapped on me this week. And what we've tapped on I think is probably one of the hardest parts. Right? It really is. I know.
It's yeah,
for we're growing.
We're gonna go have a nap now.
Yeah, go have a nap. I gotta go do another meeting. Alright, thanks, everyone. And we will see you hear you talk to you next week.
