Hi everyone, welcome to a long awaited next episode of the other things ADHD podcast.
Oh, the waiting, all the
waiting. And you're so patient with us. I love it so much. I am your co host Lee Skallerup Bessette
and I am your co host, Amy hope Morrison now named checked in a Taylor Swift song. Oh God, my life is going to be awful. What? Yeah, the double album that dropped last night one of the Young's is called Thank you, Amy. Aim II, but it's like kind of spelling out Kim for like Kim Kardashian. So it's a beef song against a bully called Amy who gets dragged through the entire song. Except shit. I teach 20 year old Swifties Lee
help. Oh shit. I'm just Yep. Could you have done AMI though? Like a m? Why? Because it's like, you know, like, everyone's name that or not.
I am for they called Thank you, Amy. And the like K in thing is, is capitalized in the I am in AMI, which I think I've made the joke on this podcast. But when I spell my name for the baristas, and stuff, I always go like a I am E because they always script VI. So I guess the good news, everybody's gonna know how to spell it. Now. The bad news is they're gonna think Taylor Swift hates me.
Which, you know, maybe she does.
Maybe she tells I don't even know. You're distracted already. Lee
I know. But it's good. I did see that it had dropped of course, but I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet. But that is high comedy.
I love the high comedy. Just because your name is Lee. Not Amy. Yeah, I
know. But like I said the boys name of li l e strength typically the male spelling and not anyway, doesn't matter. Um, so none of this matters. Ever. And that's why we do the podcast. It was so powerful. What are we talking about today with this is going to be actually an attempt at a quick episode. Let's see how we go. I was telling my husband because he's gotta drive me. And we usually do this at 1130. We're doing it a little bit earlier because Amy has someplace she needs to be. I have someplace I need to be. But I told my husband. I was like, Can you drive me one? And he's like, What time? Do you record your podcast? I say 1130. And he goes, we're gonna be done. And he's like, but how long is your podcast? And like, usually about an hour? And he's like, Well, that means I can take it 1230 Then and I'm like, yeah. Like, my full name is actually Lee Elaine, run on Skallerup Bessette. Raise, like, fair. So. So anyways, we're gonna try, we're gonna do our best. But it might be an abrupt ending. Let's
just put it that way. Yeah, it'll be like coming soon, the rest of the conversation that we had to cut off, instead of like you cutting the episode in half, we were just cutting cover ourselves.
Yeah, we're just gonna be like, alright, we'll talk about this when we have a chance again, I'm
gonna be late. Right. And we both distracted ourselves already. So I've just, I'm in my grading phase right now, right? Because classes ended here recently. And I've graded as I do, every year, a whole pasal of student self evaluation essays, right, where they reflect back on their learning in the course, which is one of the ways that I know what goes on in the student mind as I think about redesigning my courses. And something I had been noticing for a long time is like, people don't want to buy the textbook, right? Or they want the E version. And I had a bit of a kerfuffle with the bookstore this year, this semester about how they just were like straight up not going to order the textbook for my course. They're like, we'll link to our E partner. Right? But no, so I sent all my students to Amazon to buy it. And I highly instead, I was like, very clear with them, I would much prefer them to buy the print textbook, and I shared the research with them about the print textbook. And then by the end of the course, I queried them, which ones have you got the print textbook? Like how did it go for you? And similarly, with my grad students, I was like, I really want you guys to print out the PDFs of stuff. And I want you to annotate them by hand annotated PDFs by hand, you can hand in for your participation portfolio, because I think it's going to have an impact on the way that you learn. And it turns out that using paper helps everybody learn. According it turns out, you were right. It turns out I was right. All the time. Well, it turns out that I had a suspicion and then I did a bunch of research. So that the experts who'd already studied this in a sort of quantifiable way were able to reinforce for me that I was in fact right the whole time. And it was very interesting for me to discover how many students don't buy textbooks at all. Ie texts or paper texts. They're just like, I don't have to because the Don't go to class because the instructor put slides online. And then the quizzes are like link to the slides. And you can get everything you need for the course just from the slides that get posted. And I was like, Oh, my God,
that that are also probably from the textbook company as well, that are absolutely right.
It's like a sort, of course in a can. Where you're getting basically the executive summary, or the Coles Notes version of the textbook in the slides. And then the exams are like auto generated out of the slides. And yeah, you don't have to learn shit about that. So it was interesting to me that this is often you know, we joke about my spreadsheet system, right? What I want to do sort of complex tasks, I print everything out and then cut the pieces and like put them all over the floor. So I can see everything at the same time because my working memory is assumed, and so as yours. But it turns out neurotypical people learn better from things that they can see and engage as well. Have you had that experience? Lee?
I mean, my I think I've used this example before, but when I first you know, when LMSs were certainly being more implemented and more encouraging. And I could realize that students could upload their papers onto the LMS. I would just straight up forget to grade them. Sure, because I had, I was trained to have a giant stack of papers I love looming over me on my desk. Yep. Right or all around me, right. And depending on how many students I was teaching that semester. And so I had to go back to paper, I went back to paper submissions, because I said that, like, they were like, have you graded our papers yet? And I was like, oh, yeah, that's right. Papers. Yeah. Right. So. So that was, that was a big one for me in terms of like physical and having physical media, is just like, we have to print papers. And so and I, so I do this in my something like this in the portfolio class that I teach, right, is that I tell students, because we do a lot of of collecting, at first, right? Like everything you've ever done, I want to collect it, and I want you to write it down. Now they could write it down, digitally write, or type it or write it or write it out. And a surprising number of them actually do write it out. But I said, I don't want you to just like, think about the list. I want you to physically make the list, right? Go through and physically make the list of everything. I want you to do the Google search and collect all of the links, not just like bookmark them, but actually collect them and put them in a document. Right? I want you to collect
the stuff. You're like, the gesture that you're making, like, like an arm, that's that's gathering in a budget, please. Right? Like, exactly, it's about putting them in a bucket. So like physically collecting, not noting the locations, right? Yeah, gathering.
And because what I want them to be able to do is then take a step back and look at it all right. And again, it's that working memory thing that you're talking about where the students and we all like, again, neurotypical neurodivergent, you know, there's, there's immediate working memory, but then there is, I don't want you to look back on your entire life so far, right. And even for somebody in their mid 20s, that's that you can't hold out all that stuff in their head. And so they're doing these Google searches, and they're thinking about what they've done and what they've produced. And, you know, when I get them to write a reflection on and I'm like, I don't actually care about the stuff you've done, I just want you to, to have it right, like I can, you know, everybody's at different points in their careers, everybody's at different points in their lives, you know, we have people returning back to school. So somebody in their 40s is, of course, going to have more stuff than somebody who literally just graduated undergrad like, you know, like, that's not what I'm evaluating, right is your ability to produce a list of stuff. It is your ability to produce that list and take a step back and look at it and think about it and try to make sense of it and see the patterns in it. I think breads and organizing it and all that kind of stuff. And they all kind of say and note all of the things that they had forgot that they'd done.
Sure. And I think that's crucial. I think that's crucial. Do you remember the Google Mail tagline for a while was search? Don't sort? Yeah, right? The idea that everything exists somewhere that if you really needed it, you could just type a word in a search bar and like this index set of materials would then reveal themselves which but
by the way, it's awful at that now Google has been in shit a FIDE like no one's business, but that's a whole other. That's a whole I
think, I think the premise was flawed, right? Like, yeah, because when you you're saying about what you want from your students is you don't want to assess their their portfolios. What you want for them is to take the time to collect it, right To put it in one place, and then to step back from it, and to have a look into it sort of programmatically or looking for patterns and stuff, and those things are slow, right? That's an effort of categorization, pattern finding of meaning making, which is funny that something like Google's search don't sort mantra mischaracterized, I think this act of categorizing as meaningless. Yeah. But in fact, it is the act of making these categories of like, what folders do you want on your email? Or how are you sorting your portfolio? Is it into creative work and academic work? Or is it work for hire versus hobbies? Like making those categories is an act of cognition that makes our memories richer, right. And with the textbook, it was funny, I did a anonymous thing for my students on the last day we're doing the exam questions together, it was like, Okay, two minutes, write about your experience with a textbook and then dump it anonymously to this Google Doc. And a couple of them said, which really struck me of like, oh, I bought the paper textbook. And it was really great when I used it. And I wrote notes in the margins, and I remembered it, but like, on balance would not buy again, because mid semester, when I got busy and began maybe neglecting the readings, every time I saw the book, I felt bad.
Yeah, and the only reason I graded papers is because I saw the papers and felt bad. So like, right
at the existing there was this kind of like visual environmental reminder that they had reading to do for another class, which like your papers, it's really when they're not there in front of you. And there's sort of material stack kness, right, where you can see part of the book has a bunch of taped flags in it and other part of the book doesn't look like it's had the spine cracked yet. Sure you feel guilty because it is, in fact, an environmental sort of proxy. Yeah, for your level of effort and students and like the feeling that that produced, but they never, they didn't say anything bad about reading in the book, although some of them were like, I missed Ctrl F. And I was like, let me show you how an index works. Yeah, right. Yeah, we were looking at in class we did I in my undergrad class on social media, we did. Definition sounds like Okay, which one of you how many of you consider yourselves to be monetizable? citizens? They all looked at me. I'm like, right, that was a term this week. Let's look up first, what material citizens mean. And then somebody like threw their hands up in the air. And I was like, what? And they're like, oh, there's no control after the paper textbook. And I was like, picked up my book dramatically flipped to the back. And I was like, drag. I'm like, Oh, here's an alphabetical list of topics that are this book. Oh, here it is monitoring aisle citizen, page 187. PAGE 187. And the reason I remember is because I did this big extravagant thing of holding the book, running my fingers down. And as I'm narrating this story to you, I can actually see myself do Oh, yeah, I can see my finger going down the list to monitor Oriole citizen and I see where it is in the index and where it actually said the number 187. And then they all were like shit. Right? They all found it. I was like, God, you W's like that? Oh, indexes work it like it was really interesting to me how many of them were able to say like, I know, you said to buy the paper textbook, but I didn't. I also didn't buy the textbook, I found they would call it janky PDFs, screenshots of your ebook. And they're like, and honestly, I have no idea what's going on. At any given time. I'm like, Of course you don't. Right.
I mean, it's really interesting. Yeah. But this is all about like, I mean, part of me sympathetic, because textbooks are expensive. And students are trying to make their dollars go as far as possible. Right
textbook is $60.
You know, I mean, so like, part of me is like accessibility, so do that. But another part of me is like, there is this cult of efficiency, as we've talked about in the past, right? Where I, there's a certain mentality where I'm trying to game the system. Right? Right. And I mean, I think there i neurodivergent I've played that trick on myself, I can remember very clearly economics in sage up where everybody was like, unless you study like 40 hours, you're never going to pass this class. And I was like, challenge accepted. You know, also, because I didn't care about economics. I was just like, I want to
pass. Yeah, you want to not learn, right? And that's a distinction many of my students are making as well for precisely the reasons you mentioned, which is they're trying to game it because they have too many things to do. And they're trying to be efficient, right. But not
not, but I also think like, even with the too many things to do, right? And which I think yes, everybody has too many things to do. We need to learn to say no, but I also just think that even if I think students don't have as many things to do as they think they do sort of thing. You know, sure, yeah. Right. And I, but I really think that there's this mentality that even if I had nothing else to do, I would still try to game it, though, because that kind of behavior is rewarded. Right. Like, think about think about the conversations we're all having on about chat. GPT. Right. How can this make us more efficient? Right. Right.
Right. So, again, a mistake the same way that search don't sort. Yeah, is a mistake, right. And I think one of the reasons that students think like this, this was kind of like the topic of my grad class is structural, and that everything at the university is set up as a kind of producing an oppositional relationship between the institution and students, right, we are always like, have turned it in or like have these like extravagantly detailed legalistic policies about academic integrity and stuff or like, show your work or keep your rough notes where it's always already assumed that students are trying to get away with something. Yeah. Which produces this like antagonistic relationship, I think between faculty members and students, which is not conducive to learning. Right. But of course, they are looking now for ways to get away with stuff. I mean, I would too, if I felt like somebody was trying to surveil me half to death, you know, I don't really respond well to it. Yeah, sways, but like, really a rejected. I know, nobody's ever noticed that about me. It's really to me, bizarrely pennywise and pound foolish yes to spend, like, so even in Canada, where like, it's not that expensive. But like, a year of tuition at my institution, for like, the undergrads I'm teaching is like, somewhere around $9,000. Canadian. And so this book cost $60. And if they don't read it, or own it, they're really not getting much out of the course, like, they'll get stuff from coming to class, but like horse for 60 extra dollars, they'd actually have an opportunity to really learn, right, because like a lot of stuff that I'm teaching them I'm building from the readings. And so they're sort of getting the gist from context when they haven't done the readings, right. But they're sort of floating somewhere near the content. And students have written this to me in their their self evaluations, too, because they always have like, the first half of the term and then midterms happen. And then the second half of the term, it's like they're a different person, every year we see this, and they're like, yeah, the first half of the term, like I felt this course was really easy. I was doing the readings, I was like taking notes, I came to class, everything made sense. And I was learning a lot in second half of the term right after midterms. Class, I still don't come to class mostly like, which is great, but they're like, and I noticed, if I hadn't done the readings, like I was a lot more confused, in class. And as I'm studying for the exam, this is always like their come to Jesus mode, as I was studying for the exam, I notice a real difference in how prepared I am from the first half of the term to the second half of the term. So over and over again, they kind of learned this lesson that the doing the reading is going to help. And often they learn the lesson that having printouts of stuff or a paper copy of the book helps them remember things, my graduate students were noticing that when they actually would print out the PDFs instead of reading them on the screen, and they could write on them that they remembered more when they came to class, right. And some of them felt guilty about that. Some of them felt like that they should not be printing anything because they could read it online. And so they're like destroying trees, even though one of them was like, Well, I print on the backs of other things that I don't need anymore. And I'm like, right. So like, listen. And paper
is eminently recyclable, like us. Yeah, it's like of all the things that we can recycle. And it actually makes sense to do it because it's cost effective. It's paper. And we've figured that one
out. Yeah, we figured that one out. We can reuse it for a long time. And so it's funny how there seems to be cultural norms there too, that even when students are like, Yeah, I know, this works better for me. But I don't do it because I don't think I'm supposed to. Or I had, I had some undergrad students more than one undergrad student and actually one of my grad students to say, taking notes by hand in class, because I had suggested that to them, too. They're like, I used to do that when I was in high school. And I loved it. Right? I had all these different colors. And I like organize things in my notebooks. And I always had my notebooks and I knew it was going on. And then when I came to university, I got a laptop, right. And I brought my laptop to class with me and I started taking notes on my laptop, which I don't enjoy. I don't learn as much from and I don't read. They're basically trends. I'm making
a face right now. Like, yes, it's sort of like I really liked this thing. And I really hate this thing. But I get to keep doing the thing that I ate, which actually sounds a lot like everything we've talked about on this podcast where it was like we tried to be normal for so long and it never worked. And now it's like this big revelation. So I guess we can't blame the students for like, no,
I really don't. And it's it's interesting to me too. that. So they have a practice they like, and that is effective for them is like writing things down by hand. But when they get computers so like, well, a computer is better than a person, right? Typing is better than handwriting because it's faster, right? It's more efficient or having a textbook online is better because it's a nominally cheaper rate the ebook of my $60 textbook cost $40. So like, really, listen, you're not that far ahead. And they put the kind of PDFs that I get screenshots of janky PDFs of screenshots of an ebook. It's like just made me laugh and laugh. They're so funny. And yeah, like, so they have something that works. But there's something about putting a computer in somebody's hands where they're like, Well, if the computer can do it this way, it's better, right? So like, Google mail telling us search don't sort was kind of like a reproach to people who were still sorting. Right? Sorting was from the past, right? And like, why waste time doing the cognitive labor of understanding what types of material you have in your inbox, when you could just read the next email, if you've ever need this one you just read, but haven't really thought about? You can come back to it, if you remember, who sent it to you? Or what search term to use when you're looking for it. Right? So I do think we have a bias towards something that a machine does, should replace the thing that a human body does, because it's better. That's just the culture we live in is like things with computers or are better. And it's been interesting for me, go
ahead. And I also think, and this is kind of like what I what I'm doing in the portfolio class is like, these are things that I tell the students, I was like, Excuse me, you're not going to have a lot of reading to do, you know, compared to your other graduate classes. Oh, God, you
sound like me, Lee.
Yeah. And you you're not going to well, because it's like you, this is just you figuring out what to do with the work that you've already done. Right? It's
basically sorting
nonsurgically. Exactly. But But I tell them, because there's the it's, it's really hard. I think, particularly for graduate students, and especially at a place like Georgetown, where everybody is very high, achieving everybody is very a type everybody is very, right. Where there are no there's no right answers to any of the questions they have to ask. That's right. And so frustrating. Exactly. And so what I tell them is, is like, an I'll be asking you up, but I'm probably asking you to cognitively work harder than you have in any of your other classes, because there are no right answers. And so we do things like once we once we once we collect, and we look at and I'm talking with my hands again, get everything and see the patterns and everything in that I have them come down to a to try and answer three questions. What are my values? Again, really, really hard? What is my purpose? Right? What am I doing this portfolio for other than this is your graduation requirement, we want you to go beyond that this is you know, and then who is my audience, right, that stems from from the purpose, right? And, and I say anytime once we have those answers to those questions set and you have them set and I have them write it down, and it's part of their about me and it's part of everything falls into place, because if you ask a question, Should I do this? Or this? Should I include this or that? It's always like, go back to your questions. Does it align with your values? Does it help you achieve your purpose? And does it make sense to your audience?
Oh my god Lee leaves surprising literally everyone, I have had exactly the same experiences as you on this. This is like on one time I heard of for this podcast everyone knows the date. So I was just teaching a grad class on auto theory right yeah, auto theory and academic persona and I did a dean of environment at my institution was quoted in the Senate minutes as saying he had no idea somebody asked him what do you what is environment like what do you guys do faculty of environment he's like, I had no idea that's like you moron, like honestly, and I said, like, who is the dean of a faculty who cannot give a three sentence answer about what like why environment like what is like honestly and I thought my students were going to be on board with that but they were like offended at me being offended it was really weird because they were like I was like Oh, I see where you're coming from you're like environment just self evidently is right it is self justifying. It does not need to be explained and so we did a whole week on what is your WHY right because I was like environment should know it's why the Dean should be able to say the why Yeah, and so I got my my students to work on that to like not like your WHY CAN'T be getting good grades and your Why can't be the institution is going to continue to shower external rewards upon you, right as a kind of extrinsic motivation like what is your entrance? Motivation What is your why and people were angry? Oh yeah, and people struggled but what I told them is once you know what your y is, I'm like, I don't care what it is, but it can't be I like to get good grades, that's not a y right? And I said, what it will be then is your compass, it's going to point to your north, right? So that no matter what terrain you wind up on, you will figure out how to cross it because you know the direction you're going are meant to go right? Same thing and but like that labor that you're talking about, about getting your students like they're not reading so much but they're doing this difficult work of sorting. Yeah, assessing understanding and planning and the the work my students are doing about their why right or, or what I'm asking students to do when they think about you know, in their self reflection pieces what is their learning journey is of a piece with the by the textbook, right? That you it's not something you can scan, skin or Control F right? Up to do? Yeah, meaning doesn't come from those shortcuts, right? Meaning comes from that work of like sitting with something difficult or collecting. Like I love every time you start talking about it, you're like waving your arms around. It's like very spatialized Yeah, it feels concrete and touchable. And look at a bowl and move around double
like Chuck and that's what I want. I want we use like whiteboards, physical whiteboards, digital whiteboards, we, we map things we you know, and I tell them, I'm like, I, you need to have these either in a notebook or digitally, like, right? Either one is fine, but they've got to be written out. They've got to be in a place where you can then go back and look at them. Because if you try to hold all this in your head, you can't it's not gonna work. You can't. Like
you can't put the whole ocean in your mouth and then expect when I asked you to spit out the sardines, you're gonna be able to do that. That's not how it works.
Right? Okay. Because interesting analogy. Think you're
something that's going to like bend your brain. Are you ready? I did some research really shocking. I did I did after supper. I was like, so annoyed one day, I was like, I can't people anymore. I'm just gonna go upstairs and blurt out on my Instagram for a while. But I wound up reading an academic paper, about memory formation and inscription technology. And so in, I'll send you the link. But in brief, this task was the the study condition was recall and method of inscription. So you listen to a dialog, and you're assigned either to a paper, an iPad, or an iPhone condition. And what you're meant to do is write down when you hear appointments being made, right, so you're doing a calendar exercise. Oh, exactly. Right. And people self selected into these groups based on what their preferences and habits already work. Okay, so they write all this stuff down. And then there's a one hour distraction task, they're doing something else that they think is part of the study, but it really is meant to just put some distance between them. Yeah, and listening, right. And then this was really cool. They put them in an FMRI machine, right? So it can track your brain activity in real time. And they asked each group recall questions hard about easy recall questions about what they've taken notes on. And what they found was, all three groups, roughly had the same ability to recall. But the second question was, like, I would say, when was the dentist appointment? And then you would say, it's Tuesday? Yeah. And I would say, how confident are you on a scale of one to 10. And if you were in the paper group, your confidence level was eight or nine out of 10. And if you were in the phone group, where you're typing with your thumbs, your competence will be like, maybe a six. So people could recall the same amount of information, but they were anxious about it more, the less physical the mode was. So what they found in the FMRI was the people who are writing things down on paper, more regions of their brains lit up.
Like what brains the motor
area, right? So the memory of their hand, actually writing something down the spatial memory, which is like where on the page it got placed, like as in a map, a visual memory of like, they could see what they had written down the way that I could see page 187 When I recall, yeah, that's and then the language processing part of their brain reading what they wrote down, right. And so the other conditions, the iPhone, people and the iPad, people and the iPad, people were using a stylus, but they had the same problems. They had much smaller light ups in their brain so that the memory was in there. But it only had one path to it. And so it was not a rich memory, right. It was interesting tactile, visual, like Sonic or whatever it happens to be had no colors associated with it. Right. It had no speciality associated with it so they could brute force go through the filing cabinet in their head to retrieve a bit of semantic information. But the people who wrote on paper actually could feel it. Right. And they could see it and they could to map it so that they would get there. And when all of these bits of their brains lit up and gave them the same piece of information that are quite confident they knew what. And so I think about this for like my kids using textbooks or writing on PDFs is that when you do it that way, maybe your recall is not going to be any better. But you'll feel better about your role and
you want them to know, right? We know we know about even like the imposter syndrome, right? That, that students, particularly students of color, they've done this research as well is that they come in with a stereotype threat. That's what it is. Yeah, it's stereotype threat. So they might know as much. Yeah, but I don't because much, but they don't think they know as much. And so they go in with way less confidence. Yep. Right. And that's so that's like, I mean, you want to set up a situation where students feel confident going in? Yeah, thanks. Yeah.
And I think that's one of the great things about paper is because it slows you down. So you actually have to think about what you're doing. And that because you're using your body to do it in a more sort of material and tactile way, and you're getting more sensory information while you're doing it. If you get tired, you're still more likely to be able to access that memory because it went into your head four different ways. And that if you do find that information inside your head, you're going to be more confident that you're right,
because you'll see the finger running down the page. Yeah. Right. Like, I know, it's page 187. And let me explain to you all of the physical and visual and and even auditory, right, that's right, the the the embodied experience of being in the classroom at that time. So you've described all of that, where it's just like, this has become a rich memory, that you will never probably never forget that it's on page 187. Right. And I probably not going to forget either because of the way you described it to me. Yeah, right. If you have just said it's on page 187. I would have been like,
gone. Yeah, gone. Yeah. It's interesting. It's got a hook. It's got a narrative. Yeah. Yeah. in it. Yeah. So I was like, just really intrigued by how much even neurotypical people feel that they have to go faster and do better. And follow rules that maybe don't work for them. But give this illusion that because it's on a computer or a screen, or you can search, and you don't have to sort that they know more than they do. But also, it makes people kind of anxious about the thickness of their own knowledge. And like we probably have to stop now as I can go for lunch, but I just wanted to bring that up. Yeah, for people. It's something we should probably like, explore more, because I know all of us have working memories like sieves. Right, and attentional inactivity difficulties that I'd like to think more about.
Well, and he ever, to me also, it brings up all of these ideas of I'm just thinking of my own kids and myself have more tactile hobbies. Yeah. Right. Like my daughter loved like she she was building in Minecraft, but she loves building Legos. Right? Like her big thing now is get me the fancy Lego sets and I want to build Lego. You know, my son physically going to play Magic the Gathering and having tactile cards that he organizes and looks at and shifts love and moves around. Right? Or me with my sewing. Right? Like it is extraordinarily tactile, you know, like the five the fabric, you feel it, you know, there's muscle memory involved, all of those kinds of things. So I think, you know, the rise of makerspaces. Yep. Right, where people want to go to a place where they can make things. Even just you know, everybody obsessing over sourdough. Yeah, right, like
30 skill or something that like unlike typing in a computer all day, which like you do, and I do, what at the end of the day, what you have is typing in a computer and you can't even really see all of it. But if you make a sourdough, you've made a sourdough and you can eat it if you have a paper textbook, and you're leaving marginalia in the white space as they leave on the page for that purpose. Like you can see what you've done your way that in these purely virtual spaces, you can't and that's something to feel good about. And it's something that makes your body a little bit tired in addition to your brain being a little bit tired and, and I think it helps calm us. But yeah, that's probably continued to explore this, but your husband wants to drive you to work. Yeah. And you and I have d before
I go to but but What's one more fascinating thing that I was thinking about through all this too, is that my kids now want the record albums. Oh my god, the vinyls? Yep. Have their favorite bands. We don't have a record player. No.
It's called a turntable. Now, Lee,
I've been through this. All right. I'm sorry. But But what's fast, but they but they're also works of art, like their physical works of art that they put a lot of time and care into. And it's just fascinating to me that it's just like, we've gone back to like wanting physical media, but actually not using it. Like it's just anyways it like blows my mind. We'll get there. I know. Okay,
all right. It's like people always do in their resumes in front of their their bookcases because it's a kind of display of who you are, right?
Yeah, I blur out my absolute disaster of a background because it is a display of who I am. And that's not
well, this just pulls focus to your beautiful shirt or is that a dress is a dress? It's interesting. I think the fabric is beautiful fabric does all the work. It is based No. See, Lee that the fit is very nice, particularly in the shoulders and the neckline is gorgeous. I'm getting an eye for these things. Oh, is it great? Yes. Great. is great. Yeah. All right. Okay,
well, sweet, short and sweet today. Did you all enjoy it? And you know, you can find us at all the things@hq.com you can email us at all the things adhd@gmail.com If you're listening on Spotify, you can leave a comment apparently, I check them every once in a while. You can also find us on the socials. Amy is did you want I am ready writing
I am not the AMI in the Taylor Swift song
Yeah, tell all your baby you just need to change the name everywhere not just the handle be did you want to walk like
an artist formerly known as currently in the witness protection program? Hiding
face with these nice alright everyone have a have a great spring if you're in the northern hemisphere, and we'll be back you know, eventually. That's right. See you soon. Yeah, least things how many? Maybe? Probably Probably. Probably. Bye bye.
