Hello and welcome to down to earth a podcast created by the Environmental charity hubbub. This season is all about fashion. Because would you believe it the fashion industry produces 10% of all carbon emissions and clothing production has roughly doubled since 2000. Alongside that one garbage truck full of clothes is being burned or dumped in landfill every second.
So we want to discover why we're buying so much, and how our wardrobes impact the world around us. I'm Sarah Divall. And I've been working in the environmental space for seven years. But I've always been a big shocker. I love fashion and I love new clothes. And however much I learn about what the fashion industry is up to, I still find fast fashion a hard habit to break. And I find it really difficult to know how to dress sustainably. I know I'm not alone in that feeling. So, I want to bring you with me as we meet that designers, experts and changemakers who unpick why our wardrobes aren't working for us and for the planet. Today on the first episode in this series of down to earth, I'm talking to Makayla lhote. She's a climate justice activist and the author of a new book called it's not that radical, which is a fresh take on how we should look at and tackle the climate crisis. It's not that radical is a wildly hopeful book. And it's written to galvanise and inspire people out of apathy and into action. I dare you to read it and not have your eyes opened to a new way of thinking about the world and our collective responsibilities to one another. Anyone who's met Michaela or listen to her speak won't be surprised by this. She has a way of making complex theoretical ideas and huge societal shifts sounds just like common sense solutions, and she brings a huge amount of joy to everything that she does. In this conversation. We talk about everything from the injustices of the fashion industry to her top second hand shopping tips, which are amazing. She also has incredible style, I will leave you to go and check it out for yourself on her Instagram, which I'll link to in the description. There are some amazing videos where she gives you her top tips for secondhand shopping, which I would highly recommend that you go and check out. Makayla also mentioned a couple of books and films throughout our conversation, which I'll also link to just in case you want to go and check them out for yourself. Mikayla, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me excited to be here.
Where are you beaming in from today,
I'm beaming in from actually quite sunny Bryson, the sun has just come out actually, we started recording this. So very lovely to see by the sea.
I'm jealous, because London at the moment is grey and grim and miserable. So,
ya know, it's been nice to have only recently moved down there. And it's been very lovely. And hopefully as it starts getting warmer, he'll be even nicer.
I have a quote from your book here, which says, 'the reality is that we cannot consume our way out of a crisis that's been caused by excess consumption. Capitalism can't sell us liberation, because it's the very cause of oppression for so many peoples'. And that really resonated with me, because I find the pressure to consume completely immense, even within a sustainable space, especially in fashion. So many alternatives that are billed as a sustainable way to consume fashion are actually just a different way to have more stuff, even the second hand market, which I love, and I think we should be pushing more people to explore secondhand fashion. But I think at a certain point, it can just become a replacement for buying something new. And another way to consume rather than looking at the root causes of why we're buying so much and whether we really need all of those things.
We just need to like consume less. That's what we need to do. We need to like, have less things in our life. And I feel that pressure to have more things and to have new outfits because especially because a lot of my work is like doing talks and wanting to look great to do a talk so I feel more competent or especially being on social someone who's on social media and posted on social media. Sometimes it's like, oh, everyone that before but I'm like, now I'm like, I I hope that people recognise my clothes or like, Oh, we've seen you in that before. We've seen you in that by making sure that if I buy something, I'm only gonna wear watch. I'm only gonna buy it or bring it into my life if I feel like I look amazing in it. So I'm like, I am going to wear this a lot because I feel great in it and because I look great in it. There is no point breeze in your life that you're like, Oh, this is okay. Like I'm kind of like what's the you're not gonna wear that much. It's something that I saw someone post recently was like, Oh, if you're not gonna if you wouldn't take a photo and a piece of clothing, then don't buy it because you're not going to wear it very often if you don't feel well. He was thinking about we take a lot of photos we post things on Instagram. It doesn't quite a good like kind of Little tip as well. But also I make sure I'm like, well I wear this, like minimum 30 times, but I kind of see if I want to wear this like 100 times, like, I want to have this for like, minimum like, like 10 years and and keep keep out of mending it and keep looking after it. And so it's just thinking like how do we reframe even how we see our clothes as Oh, anything in our lives as no longer like something that's disposable or just for a short period of time. And if it is something that you're like, Well, this is an occasion where I now just like rent stuff, which I've really enjoyed doing, like an outfit that I would never normally buy. I was I'd be like, well, that's a bit bit out there for me. But I would like to wear it for one night. Then like rental apps like peer to peer apps like bar rotation, I think I've really enjoyed wearing actually the job that I'm wearing now. I originally rented it off by rotation. And then I loved it. I rented it twice, I think with rotation, so I loved it so much that I went on Depop. And I was like, got it find it somehow. Yeah, I was like I did. And then now I want it like many, many times sensors are,
you seem like somebody who's taking a lot of joy from their wardrobe, you're really enjoying what you're wearing. And that's the opposite to the way that a lot of people think about sustainability where you're giving up something or you're having to go without. So how do you think about what you wear and sustainability?
I think that I've actually had a lot more joy from my life. And from clothes especially since that I've had like a much more kind of sustainable planet focus and people focused outlook, because I'm also more intentional about like, yeah, what is this that I'm wearing? Who is it come from and trying to honour those people. So whether it's that I the rare occasions that I do buy something new, it's knowing like who's made it, or even when it comes to jewellery or things like knowing who's made it knowing who the maker was knowing where that kind of materials came from. And it makes it so much more joyful, joyful, for sure. But also almost like having like, a signature lip. I really enjoy that so much more. I'm like, I know that all the clothes I own look great on me, I know that I'm always going to look great because I love everything that I own. And I want it so many times. So I know what it looks like I'm so comfortable with it. And I think that that's what made a lot of draughty but they They also write about there's a there's a common misconception about sustainability or about living a climate friendly lifestyle. It's something that I write about in the book more like expansive sense of like, There's a common misconception that we all have to like, go back to the Stone Age if we want to live a a kind of friendly life. And there's a really brilliant study that I referenced in the book where they talk about like the reality of what it actually looked like to have a canonical basketball world. And rather than going back to the Stone age's instead, like we have to go back to consumption levels of like the 1950s. And that instead of having less of everything, we actually have more like we could have like more homes in the winter and cooler homes in the summer, we could have more time to connect with each other like less work hours and more time spent, like doing things that we love more time outside and less time like spent in like long, I don't know commutes in other ways that there are other there, there's so much more that we can get actually from like more better health. There's some meetings there's so many benefits so much, so much more joy from living in a world that is not like fearing complete apocalypse or experiencing it. Or in a world that's not die based on exploitation. Like there's so much more we can get. But we I think that we focus too much on that being this idea of only about sacrifice. And actually think at the moment the level of sacrifice that is required for this world to be upheld is so much greater and more horrendous than a world where we can actually have has everything have everyone have everything they need. I'm just like, it's really not that radical. I know that was the the title of the book they're also really is not that like ridiculous or outrageous that we should that everyone should be okay. It's really living like that. And people act as if that's like a intense or like, tough stance. And I'm like, I think that comes from like, the softest part of ourselves is like, Oh, we just want everyone's be okay. Like, we just want each other to like, be able to live in dignity. Like, we just want a world where we can spend time with our pals. And have connected people and growing community and support each other. I think that that's like, soft, and, and lovely and also so, so possible, which is why I liked at the time to find these studies and include them that have shown like what this kind of world could look like. And so I just want us to remember that it is so possible,
and you talk about it in the book as well. But I think that that idea is quite deliberately painted as radical even though a lot of what you're talking about is like very possible proven common sense ideas. It is in the benefits of some people to make it seem like a really far out there radical idea that could never actually happen.
For sure. I think we even write with fashion. I think sometimes it's like, Oh, me, there is no other way than making more clothes than people need. What like come on, like, I don't know, oh, there is no other way to make clothing than to like, enforce people to spend their entire lives in factories that are unsafe and could kill them like writing also we just need to realise like we can choose not to accept that this is the best that we can get and that and in choosing not to accept that this is the best that we can get or that this is the norm. We are forced to work How do we stop it from being the norm, whereas I think too many of us have been kind of ground down in many ways by this system to believe that this is the best that we can get. And when we believe that and we like live our lives based on that, we allow this to be the best it can get. Because we're not even trying to push any further, we're not even trying to create those alternatives. And it is very, very deliberate to like limit your imaginations or limit your expectations. Because then you're not going to ask for more, or you're not going to challenge the system. And, and it's literally only a minute few who actually benefit from this, like, it is a very, very, very, very small percentage of the population is actually like the 1% of the population, that actually are the ones benefiting from this system. The majority of people are not benefiting from this system, like, really, but we're made to believe that like, you're more likely to achieve the past in pretty much impossible, the majority of people like goal of becoming a billionaire, then you are, then we are achieving a world where all of us are safe and have dignity. And we've been made to believe that you should aspire for the billionaire like status. And therefore you should live your life protecting those people just in case you get the chance one day to become one. Rather than actually like coming together and being like, no, let's take down the billionaire class so that all of us can, like live safely and happily and not be exploited. And I think that we really need to reframe that, not only to be that it's possible for us to do kind of that kind of collective struggle and create something better, but also that that's attractive. And it's exciting, I think that we have been failing, I think so far, to provide alternatives that that seem exciting. And that seem much better than what we have right now. And I'm not gonna lie like with the worst is right now, it's really not that hard, headed better, which I did. And we need to like have the audacity and the confidence to do that.
And you talk about the fashion industry specifically in the book. And obviously, the fashion industry, if you're talking about climate justice is a massive thing, because a lot of our clothes are made by women in the Global South. And in the UK, I think we're really removed from that process. It's not our water that's being poisoned. It's not us who are, you know, being put in unsafe working conditions. So I think for people in the UK who are buying these clothes, they can be really removed from those parts of the industry.
So I think fashion was actually a way in which I think I came to understand like power dynamics globally, so much more, because I just remember what I watched the true cost documentary, which is obviously like, you know, a classic for anyone who's started to understand how the fast fashion industry works. In that documentary, realising how like my, my empowerment in quotation marks in my life was in wearing a great outfit and feeling good, and it was causing the like, exploitation was resulting from the exploitation of women of colour in the global south in particular. And I realised that is that true empowerment, if, like, everyone who's been involved in that process isn't empowered or is it this kind of like, quite like, Imperial or like, quite colonial, like mindset of like, oh, the people in the global north, or like a few get to feel good from this, which has been made from the exploitation of, of, of many people, far away that we, that are made to be unseen by us. I think that the the dynamics of like, not even just who's made the clothes, but who's grown, the cotton, and the kind of whole supply chain of fashion, really shows us that that those powers, they will have had an idea of also, who is holding the most the majority of our wealth has been made from these garments owed from these guys, this industry is not the cotton farmers. It's not those people, the people who die, the fabrics, it's not people who even stitch the fabrics together. It's not people who even pack them. It's the people who like are running these companies who are based in the Global North and who then kind of run go off to the global south. And it make it like a race to the bottom to pay people as little as possible to do the same work and constantly kind of push that down and down and down. And that it's and where are the sacrifices being made. In climate there's there's this kind of phrase called sacrifice zones, which is areas of the world which have been deemed to be sacrificed in order for certain kinds of industries to continue to make profit. And through fashion, we see that so often because there are entire communities whose water is poisoned, and and sacrificed, whose communities are left like experiencing cancers and other issues, just so that people can have a really wide array of clothes that they will never wear, like I'm more closed that we like, we produce more clothes, it actually possible for the population to wear, that is beyond wild. Like why are we doing this like just so that we can walk into a store and have tonnes of stuff and just so that we can keep up with trends? I think that this is one way also that like our economic system of capitalism, which I do go into a lot in the books things on top. Sometimes people like what you were talking about, I do like autism, it goes into in the book, but a way it gets us is making us believe that our empowerment comes from buying stuff that we don't need. And it needs to make us believe that because it has to grow like this ego, we have an ego system, which will fail unless it grows. And so a function of that system has to be that has to continue to get to continue to convince you to buy things we do not need and tell you that that is what will make you happy, rather than like allowing you to connect with your like fellow people and siblings, and realise that a lot of that real joy can come from things that you can't buy. And so I think that we use need to I think part of us like stepping away from this also changes like changing our mindsets. I really think that like how we view things can have a really big impact of like, how, why are we buying so much stuff we don't need? Why do we why do we think that that brings us joy? And how can we kind of retrain ourselves to find joy elsewhere? And how can we also like not forget the people who we might not see right in front of us, but who are our siblings all over the world? Who are making the things in our lives? And how can we try and honour them in the lives that we live and realise that like their liberation is our liberation and that we are also interconnected?
I want to ask you a question about transparency, because it's something that I find really difficult is sometimes when I can believe a brand, you know, a brand isn't a person with a set of ethics, it's a corporation. And we know a lot of greenwashing goes on, and it can be really difficult to work out if a brand is telling the truth or not. So do you have any tips on how people if they are looking to buy something new, what they should be looking for, from the brands they're buying from?
It's really, really hard to know for sure. Because brands invest so much money in marketing campaigns that will make them seem like they're grand, even if they're not like, they want everyone to believe that they are doing a lot better than they are because they know that people are getting a bit clued up and asking these questions are things that I look out for is if it says green something, it's probably not actually like climate friendly. Because what does that mean? Like? I think look for words that actually mean something because I think they can say green or they can say ECO or they can even say recycled, but like be like how much of that is recycled? And like? What do they even mean by eco? Like, I think these are words that just buzzwords they throw in to make you to distract you. And I think that the folks that are actually paying their frozen folks, the brands that are paying their workers living wages will make it fairly wicked very clear and very obvious to you. If it's hard to find out, that's a red flag, like immediately, but it should not be hard, they will make it abundantly clear. Because to be honest, like in this world that we live in now, the brands that are actually paying their workers a living wage are incredibly few and far between. And they are they are like I hate to say it, but like they are compared to other brands, they like sacrificing more than others are to do that. That shouldn't be sacrificed. So pay people enough. But that's the reality of it. So they will make it abundantly clear like, Oh, I'll work as a paid off. If you can't find that easily, then I just think you should assume that people are not being paid well enough in the supply chain, unless it's abundantly clear that these people are like paying their workers a living wage, and etc, etc. I think secondhand is the safest place to go if you need to get something because that garment already exists in the world. And as long as you're saying yourself, I'm going to wear it a lot. I'm going to look after it, I'm going to repair it if it breaks. I'm not just going to have the same disposability mindset as this just because even though it's secondhand, it doesn't mean that you've just like also treated the same as you treat fast fashion. If you go Monday secondhand prostitution, then I think that's kind of a better a better way to go.
I want to ask you something related to that. So it's a question that we ask all of our guests, but one way that you think the fashion industry could change tomorrow that would have the biggest impact. And one thing that you think people at home could do right now to make a change to how they're dressing.
I think the one using the brush industry could do is just scale down how many clothes they make, like, that's the biggest thing. I mean, I think applique I will switch to that, that they should do, but also just like pay their workers a living wage that should be very basic thing. I think a part of how like how do we get to that point where they pay their workers like a living wage as well not just a minimum wage, but a living wage that people can live on is have them like release what their lowest wage on their supply chains are. And I think it should be like a necessity that every single company I think not just bashing every company should have to publicly state what the lowest wage of the other person in their supply chain is and have to state how much percentage smaller that is will tie I'm smaller, that isn't a CEO salary. And I think that if people if that was like common knowledge, we'd realise, like, how much more people are devaluing other people's lives compared to the person at the top, I think that would have a really, really big impact. And there have been some, like organisations who've been kind of campaigning about this, like lowest wage issue for a while, I know the freshman revision has been doing some work on that for a few years. So I think that could be a big thing. And the reason I switched it was just because I don't want to be ignoring Gong workers, right. Whilst I do think that scaling down production would also would also help people's rights. I think it's like trying to work on like, how do we support the people who we have today. And then I think from there kind of things would get better. I always think if people were paying them, or they make less stuff, because they could just be investing more in the garments they're making. And the second question is what people can do today, I mean, one thing people can do is start like, in relation to that is be asking these brands constantly, what is the lowest wage or someone in your supply chain? Petition, like petitioning? I don't know your local representatives or whatever, to try and make this like a real campaign that can actually happen, that means that we were released these things, constantly asking companies like how much more your CEO paid in the lowest possible supply chain. And to me that stands not just this isn't just for, like, companies that we put on the bad side. I think any company I think we need to, like be really thinking like, why anywhere? Is anyone valuing? Like, some one person's life that much more than the person and? And why does anyone think it's okay for people to be paid, like enough that they don't, they're not able to really live like a joyful, full life. And that's such a basic thing that we should be advocating for. I think that I think it is quite jarring to people sometimes when they realise Oh, I am actually devaluing that person's life this many times more than my own life by paying them that much less. And a way that we can do these things kind of success was not see them alone. So the biggest thing as well connected to that is, don't do this work alone, do it in a group, do it in a movement, do it with people, you don't need to be able to do everything on your own, you don't need to be able to fill every single role and then manage funding messaging, like organisation, all it is that it all comes from one person. It's not enough for us just to like, have good politics or like to, to think good things or to believe good ideas. If we don't do something to try and build those good ideas. And I want us to go a bit beyond like the kind of self congratulatory like patting on the back of oh, I'm not, I'm not the worst, and therefore I'm fine. And instead of realising that, like, change is just not a passive thing, it things don't just get better, they never have in the past, and they never will in the future unless we will come together and, and build them as many of our ancestors have done in the past and have given their lives to doing. And so even if you can't give all your time, realise that I think that we have a duty to each other, to our siblings all over the world and to the future that comes after us to really give whatever we can to building a better and transformed world. You can't always
you know, invest in something support a sustainable brand, but like when you can, or you really if you do really need like you need a new coat being able to buy it from there and if not using secondhand, and I wondered whether you had any secret top tips for people who have never bought a secondhand or always, you know, on fast fashion, how do we convert them that's the
first thing you do if you're currently buying fast fashion also, I'm not sitting here and like complete judgement. I'm just like we're we're all kind of duped by this system as well. The first thing to do though is that they get you by making you addicted to it. If any fast fashion brand is on your favourites of your browsers or how you have any open tabs to them or you get in a habit of a certain time of day, you just go and scroll through whatever brand it is delete those from like delete all the tabs like delete them from your like your bookmarks bar, delete them from everywhere and then what it is that you are a routine that you know you do it when you feel maybe it's when you feel pounds, you had a really pumped day you do it. Try and find be very intentional about doing something else like be like what can I replace this kind of this habit with? How could I maybe scroll through Depop if you really need to scroll like during that time? Or could I maybe watch a movie instead? Or could I read a book instead? Or could I like even if it's like downloading Candy Crush on your phone like something's that you're just like replacing that behaviour with something that is like getting you off the like fashion addiction in that's a good place to start. And then I was laughing or you ask the question only because my tip so incredibly unhinged because I only wear pink really. And so like the thing that's helped me the most is like sticking to one colour has meant that I have found it so much easier to buy secondhand clothes like I only buy it's easy it is next level on hinge I only buy pink clothes, but it has made it so much easier because I will go on Depop or vintage or eBay and I will select like pink as the colour or search pink and then whatever I'm looking for whether it's like coat, coat, trousers, maybe and try and be as specific as possible. So I'd be like, Oh, I saw someone wearing I don't know, like pink bell bottoms, for example. And I'll so I'll search pink bell bottoms my size. And you can set alerts as well. So it will let you know when more things come up of that things even if you can't find it immediately. It's like also getting yourself out of this kind of this need for like instant gratification, I think it's like teaching yourself to wait, is another really important thing. And then if you find that maybe like me, force yourself to wait a couple of days, like do I really want this or everything thrown at me this, I think those different things have really helped me. So I do think that choosing a colour, it actually helps so much to be like I because otherwise it's so overwhelming, because there's so much out there. And I think if you just went on Depop, and you did not have any like strategy, or you went on vintage or eBay or whatever kind of app you want to go on, can be so overwhelmed, you'd be like this much out there. And not all of it will be your style. And it's hard as it is harder to navigate than a fast fashion website, for example. But I think the differences you can find much better stuff that will be very much more you and you'll have to learn, you learn to like develop your own style a lot more, because you will have to be like, it will be like really looking through a lot of things you maybe wouldn't see normally and be like, well, maybe that would look good on me or maybe that whatever. And I think those are big, I think knowing your measurements, knowing your size. And then like setting alerts for some things like I have an alert on Depop constantly for pink boots in size seven, because I'm very partial to a boot and I currently am making my way through my current shoes a bit too quickly. Because I wear them every day.
If anyone listening wants to sell boot size, let
me know, let me know. But but it's meant that like either because the shoes that I wear all the time, I found them secondhand that I absolutely love them so much. But it took me a while to find them. And it meant that I got them. I'm now like, oh, this was amazing. And so I think like, I think that you get more joy from it. Can you find something great secondhand, especially like, but like don't just go and buy all the best stuff from everywhere and over consume because then other people are not able to find it. And then especially do not go and like buy cheap things, and then up market them and just gentrify them on apps, like come on. Like, we don't, that's not helpful. So like, we Yeah, I think that we, we need also need to remember that a lot of these shops are like a lifeline for a lot of people who do not have as much access to capital access to wealth. And so the gentrification of these shops is happening quite rapidly because of this kind of replicating the same system of overconsumption that happens with fast fashion. But with the shops, it's just not actually helpful. Yeah, so please only buy things you actually wear.
It's like foraging roles, but for charity shops, like don't take, don't take more than you need. Make sure there's something for everybody else like, yeah, I really like that we're gonna put a copy of it's not that radical in the link so that people can go and find it. But I wondered if there was a kind of final thought that you wanted to leave people with at the end of the podcast.
But well, thank you so much for having me. I've I've, I've really enjoyed this conversation a lot. Over the final thing I would leave folks with is just, I really want people to realise that we are not doomed. We are not doomed, like a do not let yourself believe that we are not that we are doomed. It is not too late to take action on anything. It will like quite literally never be too late to take action that will make the world better for our fellow humans and for ourselves. And so yeah, believe in your own importance in being part of that fight. And do whatever you can in whatever skills you can and find joy in it so that we do it for the long term. And yeah, thank you. Thank you for taking the time to listen to us talk about that. And I look forward to seeing you at our movements.
I really hope that you enjoyed my conversation with Mikayla as much as I did. And her book. It's not that radical is out now. And I can't recommend it highly enough. I loved it if you've been inspired to make a change or if you're making one already. And head to instagram or twitter and follow hubbub where you can find loads of tips on things that you can do every day to make a change for the environment and to save a bit of money. If there's a story that you'd love to tell us about something that you've done to make your life more environmentally friendly. Or if you have your own tips that you're desperate to share, then please write into the show Our email is hello@hubbub.org.uk. And if you're quick enough that we might even read it out on next week's show. Thank you so much for listening. This podcast was presented by me Sarah duyvil, created by hubbub and produced by any day
