Welcome to Kindle Curiosity, an imperfect podcast about the creative process. I'm your host, Sarah Shotts. I'm an artist, author, academic and creative coach. This is season three, and we will be exploring creative ecosystems, which happens to be the topic of my very first book, something new this season is that we are recording videos, and those will live over on sub stock for podcast supporters. So if you'd like some information on that, you can find the links in the podcast description. And for now, let's jump into today's episode. Welcome to the podcast Claire. I'm so excited to talk in like real time with each other.
Yeah, that is a funny concept, isn't it? Because a lot of the time we we are there's a bit of a lag maybe if we're chatting on WhatsApp or like connecting like when you start your day, and I've already had like over half a day. Yeah, this is real time. So this is like 3pm my time and what time are you over there?
9am? So I'm just starting the day here.
Yeah, yeah, that's really nice. So yeah, so my husband is gone off to do the school run. So I've got a nice quiet house. So that feels nice to feel very relaxed and happy to be talking to you and whoever's listening.
So you all may know, Claire from the project that we're doing together the magic mundane. But Claire, I'll ask you to introduce yourself, if anybody hasn't been following along with that.
Yeah, for sure. So I am Claire, I live here in Northumberland, by the coast in the UK. I'm a creative producer and mentor. So I work with arts and heritage organizations bring projects for them. And I also work with individuals and people who identify as creative folks or people who want to add more creativity into their lives and into their work. And so I'm a huge fan of creativity and all of its forms. And I'm not a natural artists, like I don't feel like I have an artist practice. But I have a creative practice. And I guess that's how Sarah and I connected because I was like, Look at this incredible artists. She was like, Look at this mom being creative. So yeah, so that's how we kind of connected I think to start with over on the ground.
Yes, I think it was through maybe like a hashtag. And then I saw your artists boat and the artist. The island project you did for moms like those are kind of the first things that bubbled up to my awareness. And then this year, I joined your content club and really, really got to know each other in there. And that's where the magic mundane project was birthed from. And so that's been I guess, maybe we should talk about that. For anybody who doesn't know
Yeah, I was trying to work out how many months we'd been exchanging photos for the other day, like in my head when I was trapped in a dark room with my daughter, I think I didn't actually like have access to my phone. And I couldn't remember and I was like, Why can't you remember this? Like, is it six months? Like, is it longer? Do you have a handle on it?
I know for sure that we were doing it in March, because that's when David's diagnosis was? And we've been doing it for a while before then. Maybe we started in February,
Yes. So coming up to a year because originally we were like, Let's be ambitious and try and do a year of exchanges via WhatsApp we found was the best way to communicate. And we'd said a photo or a video snippet. And let's just kind of see. And then I guess, in all of that time, and so like nearly 10 months now, we've also had like Creative Conversation, we've talked about what we're snapping and why and like, where that's come from. And I guess like for me as well, like it's pushed my creative photography, because I've been really interested in is there's something in the moment that interests me if I'm out and about. And if I haven't got my foot on, like maybe I will next time, but also on the harder days, and there are plenty of those for the toddler. And it's kind of given me that new breath of life to go okay, like, let's just reframe this a bit. Like, what do we both need? Like, what can we both do? And that's obviously mindful and in the moment, but it's also because of this project because there is so much magic, even when it's a hard day like that. But that all always sparkles up just for me anyway, even on the super hard days.
Yes, I feel like when David was a new baby, I was taking photos constantly. And then I got to the point when he was a toddler where I felt like I couldn't take the perfect photo because he was always moving and things are always a mess. And so I kind of stopped doing it. Like I went through this phase where I had hardly any pictures. And then I think you propose the project that we exchange these photos every day. And that was a big challenge for me to like, see the math see the magic in the mess. And like, let's celebrate. And I know I was kind of like doing this experiment on Instagram where I posted pictures of the masks and you had commented on those that you connected with them. And I was like, Okay, well, maybe I can like, look for the beauty here and look for the embrace the imperfection. And so that's been a really fun piece of it for me. And something else that you said, I've noticed as well, like, if it's like, the milk was spilled, or like something of mine has been broken or taken apart. And it's a time where I would be a little bit dysregulated and upset that stopping to take the photo document the moment, kind of let me reset myself and reframe the moment. And so I love that. It's like, it's a creative practice, but it's also a mindfulness practice. And then I also love the connection between us as well. So I'm so glad that you that you dreamed it up for us.
Yeah, I just feel like it's, it's really interesting to see how things change in shape. And we had a moment, didn't we, a few months ago, when we were like, our Instagram reels the place for this, like, is this what we're doing with it? And like, Does that feel good? Like, does it feel good to the people watching? Does it feel good to us to like, make those? And I think like, just stretching that out? And being like, Oh, wait, no, it's up to us. Like it's our project. So we can decide and choose. So I think originally, we started sharing weekly, and then we will I definitely kind of got shifted it to like a monthly thing and more like, encased in gratitude of like, okay, like, these are the things that I want to share and remember and give a digital life to and then I've also printed some of the photographs, which I don't know what they're for. They're just in a box called Making motherhood memories along with like some paint, splats, and different things that we do. And I feel like that I'll be a really precious space in time, because I know that with a toddler, everything is just and feels a million miles an hour, whereas with my eight year old, everything is very measured. We have incredible conversations, there are other challenges that are not as fast paced and tight more time to think. And there's more time to reflect. And there's quite a lot of grief in the reflections when I look back at the digital stuff that we filmed with him and the like cutesy first drawings. And obviously, I've kept them all, you know, you look back and you're like, wow, like, I almost didn't see that at the time. And I see it now. So again, with this whole passion about slowing down, or at least trying to when things are quite intense. I just feel like there's something there for me in this project that maybe I can get to like even in the midst of it, if that makes sense.
Yes, I think that's one thing is like, we're only having one child. So David is ours. Usually when I say he's our first people start asking about multiple, we're going with one. But you have this different life experience of having your second child. And so I think that's where when I posted those pictures of the mess, you could do like connect to the beauty in that because you'd have had it and then been removed from it, where I was still in it and feeling kind of overwhelmed. And like I don't even I think like when I was posting that it was like, I don't even know what to post because this is what our living room looks like. And you're like, Oh, I love these little lives of the toys. And like, I love having that. It's almost like a voice from the future. Like, what I might be feeling when the message isn't there, when the message is different.
Yeah, those like collections. So I think, um, because my son obviously grew up as an only child, there was lots of floor space for him to kind of the column schemas. I don't know whether that translates to America as well. But it's like the lining up of things. So he did the lining up of things, dinosaurs usually, but like other things, and I have maybe got like one or two of photos of those because it happened every day. But now like, I wish I had more of that because it was like of its time, you know, those choices that you made those creative choices. I mean, it was a work of art. It was incredible. But it was play, you know, it was his way of playing. And now he does more like islands of play. So there's like these guys over here, and then these guys over here. And so it changes, you know, and it is absolutely fascinating to watch. And what I've realized with my second is that it's very unique to him. And the way he sees and wants to engage with the world and lunar will be entirely different. And I can see that already in the way that her development is playing out and the things that she is excited and interested in. So yeah, I really feel like there is some magic maybe I can articulate that better in reflection, you know, like I was saying about how to share this project and the depth of it. I really feel like there's a blog series in there somewhere to like give people pause. Michigan to just take those photos of the play of the mess of the moment of the specific toy that then gets lost, you know, whatever it is,
Yes, it's really interesting coming out, like almost on a year of having done it that we have this new perspective on it, where at first we thought it was all about, like sharing the images. And I think, I don't know if we burned ourselves out. But we definitely got stressed at the point of like trying to put together a reel and editing all the photos and the music. And so I'm, I'm really glad that we had that self awareness that we didn't have to keep it that way and give ourselves the flexibility to let it change and find a way that fit, like our creative ecosystem a little bit, a little bit more comfortable.
And I think for other people like connecting to those shares, and like starting the project off with a hashtag like that it's been interesting as well, because it's debatable, isn't it around hashtags at the moment? And like, Do people still engage in follow them? I do. And I know you do. But I think that for this like, it's like that magnet that makes sense. And if people find it however many months down the line, or maybe when we've stopped, you know, it still exists, and it can still be impacting mums, and definitely with creativity Island, which was my project when I was on maternity leave with Luna. It was about that it was about okay, like how do we capture something now that then makes sense for moms who come after us? You know, like moms that aren't even thinking about being moms yet? And what does that look like? And how can it still makes sense? So yeah, it's exciting. We'll see. We'll see what we will have lots of reflections, I'm sure, like contemporary time, when we've gone through all the seasons as well.
Yes, I love that. And so just to be clear, for anybody listening, if you want to share moments from your day, just any kind of photo or video over on Instagram, you can use hashtag the magic mundane, we try to follow along with that and see what you're posting. So we can share it. But also, we'd really encourage you if you have like a friend or if you see someone that you connect with on Instagram that you want to reach out to and exchange photos with. We've found a lot of a lot of kind of joy and creative inspiration in that partnership.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's been really special for us. And I feel like it was bold for both of us at the time. But actually, like, for me, especially in the earlier days. It just pulled me out of the depths a lot to know that I had something that I could do that was like creative and artistic and just for me and really special and helped kind of a book gratitude. It was it was really beautiful. It still is but I can just reflect that the some of those days it was, yeah, I was like, wow, this is really special. And if we could offer that exchange to others, that'd be amazing.
And I remember right before we started, I'd actually written I think my very first substack post was about inconsistency and like giving myself permission to be inconsistent. And this has been a consistent project that we've done almost every day, I think there might have been like a day or two that missed. But the difference for me is the things I was trying to do the things that I used to do consistent before I was mom, I don't have the capacity to do consistently anymore, like journaling three pages every single morning, like at the same time of day. But the thing about just taking a photo, like you can just take a moment and making a creative practice that's so simple. And that's already pre decided, like I'm going to do this small thing to be creative. And I'm going to have this moment of connection. And it's also easier to be consistent when you know someone's waiting on the receiving end as well.
Definitely, and I think like consistency is such an interesting topic in creative practice, isn't it because that is what builds creative practice. But motherhood is this wild ride that puts like a whole on all of that. And then again, for me coming back to a more consistent creative practice once my son had kind of started you know, preschool and he was definitely like he had his thing that he was doing and that was all kind of kind of fine. I mean, you know, the roller coaster that we have Sarah but it was kind of fine. It was like okay, he's there. And I'm separate whereas now like Luna and I are just one person like she's not even to like we're just one person she doesn't really exist anywhere without me either upstairs or like 10 minutes drive down the road like we're just together. So yeah, that consistency and how you find space for it and how it then impacts not only how you feel and your well being but your creative practice as well. I just think it's it's special, isn't it? It's something like it's like, okay, like this is a thing and we can make it happen.
And I feel like for me, it's really brought me into an awareness of my own capacity because I used to like if I decide ended on a project, I would just plow through with it and sometimes burn myself out. And with being a mother, I have much less capacity. And so I have to be really mindful with the things that I decide to do. And yeah, that's been one of the big lessons for me. And I love how this magic mundane project is small enough and flexible enough that it can fit into that. And that can be the challenge when we are like, almost this one person here at the beginning of motherhood of like, how to keep that creative spark alive. without, like, pushing too hard.
Yeah, definitely, definitely really resonate with all of that. And I feel like, there are so many lessons around like, that bridge to like pushing, you know, like, it's, I don't know, whether it's like, as I've got older or like what it is, but I've definitely pulled back from pushing, like, I've pulled back like, I can sort of recognize when it's starting to happen now. And I'm like, Oh, that's interesting. Like, why am I doing that? Like, what's that for? What's that about? And who's it going to serve? And you know, so? Yeah, it's an interesting one.
And I'm just looking at the time. So we've also both published books this year, I thought we might talk about that experience a little bit as well. Yeah. And you are on your second, right.
Yes. Second journal, for sure. And then I've done three ebooks. And this was, at the time when it was like, wow, like, ebooks can be a thing. People are like, download a book. And that feels like a nice offer. So yeah, so I think that was pretty much the pandemic. Yeah, I think that was 2020 that I published my first ebook. And I just felt like, wow, like, I've discovered something here. And then I've been cultivating a writing practice. That feels very separate to my project management work and my creative work. It feels like a separate practice and a separate claim, like reclaiming of that space. And so the interesting thing with the first journal book hybrid was okay, like, this is a collaborative book. And it's a book that encourages creativity. But it's also a book, like I'm writing a book, like, wow, I'm doing that, you know, so there was quite a lot in there for me, because I was very comfortable. Celebrating the artists ideas, and piecing it all together and making it make sense. And I was really comfortable sharing my creative practice and my process, but bringing a book into the world was terrifying. Like I don't I you know, I don't know where that came from. And it was totally unexpected. So the second time round with this one, which I've called our beautiful reality, the journal, it's like a creative planner with soul this one, and I thought that would be easier. And it wasn't, it was exactly the same levels of discomfort. So yeah, easier process. But in terms of like, birthing it, and getting it finishing seemed off like I did stick to my deadlines, but I sort of wondered if I hadn't have given myself the deadlines. And if I hadn't have talked about it in the world, if I would have just like gone on, I'm not doing it, you know, I don't want to do it. I'm not doing it, you know. And then No, and the reason I'm leading in with this is I know that you've been really kind to yourself around your deadlines with the book. Mine's on its way to me, I'm really excited somewhere in an aircraft or a van or something. And it will come but I have got the map printed version of it. So yeah, I really loved reading it and making notes on it and feeling like oh, this is a something that I can always take part in and always have to do. So yeah.
I feel the same. I feel like I wouldn't have even written it if someone wasn't on the other end. So my book, well, it's kind of overly complicated, but that's the way it happened. So I drafted a really messy book that was supposed to be about creativity and motherhood, when like David was a baby and, and so I wrote a lot of it on my phone, just notes. And then around 2020, I was trying to edit it into a book to publish. And of course, that changed everything because I couldn't go to the library and have a quiet space anymore. And that's when we started working on building the studio because I realized that with my autism, I need a place to reset that I can't hear him. Or it's not I can't really come back to myself. And so that book kind of went on the shelf. And when I come when I came back to editing it, I noticed this first chapter, which was about your creative ecosystem was this poem, its own thing. And it wasn't specific to motherhood. It was relatable to anyone. And so I worked on that piece, but what I ended up doing is I sent one element at a time to my friend Kate, who was the last person I managed to talk with on this podcast. She's an artist and a weaver. And if you missed that episode, I'll put that in the show notes. So I would send that to her every week. And that's what helped me have the consistency to finish the book is having someone that was on the receiving end of that it wasn't like the first draft, I guess it was the second draft at that point, I was still really messy. And it isn't what it is now. But that's how I got that done. And it gave me a commitment to push through with that. And then I feel like on the publishing and because I had the manuscript finished, and I had a proof of the book. But by taking pre orders, I had to really do it. I couldn't get scared and not. I feel like if I hadn't done that Indiegogo, and if I didn't have people who I knew were excited and waiting for the book and had already paid me, I am sure I would still not have finished it. And so I've been a little bit flexible with this specific dates, just trying to give myself some space, especially since we started the year in expecting David to be in school. And now he's home with me. But I knew I wanted it to go before Christmas. So that was kind of like a hard line. And I wanted it to get out as soon as possible that it wasn't too much in the holiday rush especially, I think it's going to hit that for you guys over here. I think people have got it before the shipping gets too crazy. But yeah, I'm thinking about that with my next book, I want to come back to the creative mom book. And I'm going to invite other people to submit writing as well, we've talked about this for you to be one of them. And I think when I do that when I'm going to give more space to it, because actually, the creating the book part and getting the proofs and the editing, like all of that takes a lot of time. And I think when I'm working with collaborators that also have busy, complicated motherhood lives, because that's what this book will be that we're going to need a little bit more gray space, or white space or space to make sure that book is the way we want to do before we send it out. And just kind of bubbling on that earlier this week. Because I have felt a little bit a little bit rushed for this, like I kind of would have liked another proof, but I really wanted it to come out from before Christmas. And I it will never be perfect. And I just have to accept that incentive. But it's really scary right now. Because no one hasn't yet, or like a couple people have it that they haven't read it yet. And so it's like waiting to your house. Yeah,
Yeah, that's a really interesting phase, isn't it when you start seeing something like land with people, and then they maybe share or send you a message, but often people don't, you know, and you're like, Okay, are we okay? All right. And it's just I guess, it's just that feedback that you would get if we were like in person doing a thing. And when you send things out in the post or online like this, just a whole heap, less feedback, less kind of connect. And I think one of my biggest lessons is in asking for that there are so many revelations. So I'm working with a marketing coach at the moment. And she gave me some specific questions and sent them to one of my clients. And I was just in tears, like, it was just incredible what this client wanted to say. And I was like, I have no idea like no idea, not really about any of this stuff. So yeah, that that place of connection, I think I crave it hugely, because I work on my own. So I don't really ever see colleagues, like I bring people together, but I'm always in charge of the event. So it's not like a sort of reciprocal colleague thing. So I tend to set up spaces where a connection can exist and like, reciprocity can exist as well, you know, it's like, okay, like we can, we can exist in this space together and, and exchange ideas and like, people take things in new ways, don't they? And I love all of the questions, all the invitations in your book. And I've noted today that I've said that an island would be my most perfect sort of ecosystem place to be and, and I think that I probably knew that like, deep down, but I didn't realize that I needed to take myself to an island. So in the summer, we had this teepee. In our garden, I spent a lot of time writing and working and hosted workshops in there. And it was a real Island, a real Adeleke place to create a little fire in there and it just had all the elements of loveliness. And it brought something else. So knowing that through your book and like what that is, it's like oh, those are a unique set of circumstances that I can create for myself. Maybe every year me It'll be somewhere else, you know, maybe book in another space, or I don't know how it will work. But I just feel like there's so much richness in there for me to better understand, like, what I need to create and what I need to host and CO create and all those other things that we end up doing as creative folks.
Yes, I love I can't wait to hear oh, my free meeting will end in 10 minutes. Here. Well, I guess we're on a time I thought if it was only two people, you had an unlimited amount of time. So maybe they changed it again. Maybe it's because we're recording the screen? I don't know. But okay, so we're, we're on the end, the last stretch here of the podcast. Um, but I love hearing how you envision your creative ecosystem. I can't wait to hear more about that from other people. It's all really exciting. So since we're on the end, I will maybe transition to talking a little bit about substack. Because I feel like both of us really value that connection piece. And I was feeling like, what's the point in writing a blog, no one reads it. What's the point of writing a newsletter, like, everything felt like I was sending out into the void. I didn't know if it was landing. And since we have both been playing with substack, I think that's a really beautiful place to receive more of that connection and feedback, sharing things.
It's been a real surprise for me that another platform existed that could do that. Because it just felt like all of the online platforms were just making it really hard to have connection. And it just felt like you were kind of spending lots of time on them. And, and that connection, just maybe it was there one day, but not the next there was no consistency to the connection, I think is what I'm saying. And then with substack, it feels completely different. So when I first started out, I was like, Yeah, okay, like, this feels a nice place to write on. And then when they started substack, they started talking about the writers that they host I was like, Yeah, I can get on board with that, like I have a writing practice, done to creative writing courses, in a year. Because like, I just really wanted to, like, express myself through writing expressive writing, mostly. And dealing with a lot in our family and writing was like really cathartic for me. It's really cathartic for me. So yeah, sort of felt like this is a fresh space where nobody knows necessarily who I am, but I can right there. So I started with that. And then very quickly after that, I was like, okay, like, I feel safe to share, and I feel safe to like, connect to other substack accounts. And because there are no vanity metrics, and then there's no like, this is how many followers she's got. Or like whatever else people look at, to make a decision about whether you're a worthwhile human to follow on the internet, there was none of that it was like, our people are like literally just making a decision based on like, what they've read, or what like sometimes even an opening title, like whatever that opening title of expression was. And I was seeing that in my inbox, you know, new subscriber new subscriber, which was like, Oh, wow, okay. Okay, like, so again, that kind of exchange of connection was like, I'm right in there subscribing, I've got the sub stack. Now, there's a few posts on there, people are subscribing, but also sub stack a support in this platform for me and for others to grow. So it's, there are some big people on there. And there's some people who talk about how they got to be big on substack. But it's less about that and more about the support. I think they the way they articulate things, they seem to sort of remove a lot of obstacles and just make things easy for you. So when the users are saying Oh, would be handy, if we had this, it would be handy if we had that. It looks to be that they're listening, and they're turning those ideas around quite quickly. I think there's been a couple of moments for you and Iowa, we've been like, oh, no, don't do that one. Just because we don't need another social media platform like Instagram, like Twitter or any of the other ones. Like we don't need that stuff like that place. So we need it to be something else don't we?
I feel like the benefit of it is it's so simple, and I just hope they don't kind of overcomplicate it and add too much of like you said, the vanity metrics in the social media part hasn't been like a nice calm place. And it's so easy to navigate. And I'm not sure why but I get so many more comments there than I do on other places. Some, you know, there's an app there. The website is also really easy to navigate. And, like I was using Patreon before that stock and it had kind of like, peaked like I had a or a plateaued and it's a lot of work to explain what Patreon is. But substract you can subscribe to the free newsletter. And then you can get bonus content if you pay. And like you can write you can podcast you can video like there's so much flexibility there. but it has really grown. And I've actually had new subscribers and new subscribers where my Patreon was, like stuck. And I'm not sure what all the reasons are there. But it's been really nice. Even my patrons wouldn't necessarily comment that they were receiving my posts that I worked really hard on there. But on substack, those same people who moved over with me to substack, they're always commenting. And so it makes a real difference if you know your work is landing with people.
Yeah, yeah, I've been really trying to advocate for it as well. So in my creative producer work, we've got an ambition on diversifying income streams, but also raising profile and substructures, both of those things. So I've been really trying to advocate for what it is and what it does, because in the cultural sector, people knew what Patreon was, but nobody had one. And I think because they just found it complicated to understand what they should offer, you know, so there was like one musician in the Northeast of England that had a Patreon, and she did it really well. But for everybody else, we were just kind of scratching our heads a bit, so none of us did it. And then now with substack, that just feels more accessible to kind of go, okay, like, this is the investment. And this is the free stuff. And this is the, this is the space to play. So yeah, there's quite a few people moved over to it. So that's exciting, too.
I feel like with Substack, it's kind of like, I'm here to support you were with Patreon. There were so many tears, and I was like, what perk do you want, like you're supporting to receive something. And on substack, it feels more like I'm here to support you. And then anything given in that exchange is more like a gift. That's kind of how it feels for me, because I know a lot of us on Patreon, we're kind of overthinking it, and like making too many different things. It was too complicated. We're on substack. There's kind of like that one tear of paid or free, which really simplifies it. Yeah, definitely have three minutes left. So I want to thank you for joining me, I'm so glad the stars and the timezones aligned. So let's be sure to tell people how to connect with you. And of course, that will be in the show notes. But if anyone's just listening and wants to type in your Instagram handle, where should they go?
My Instagram is @creatively.conscious and my website is creativelyconscious.co.uk and you'll find everything else you need by either of those two channels. And I don't even know if I would be able to articulate what the substance is if that would come up in a search. But I'm going to check that out now because it would be nice to direct people there. But you will find it. It's in my Instagram bio, if you wanted to sign up to my Substack newsletter, monthly newsletter and lots of paid for posts as well over there.
Yes, and I will put all of those things in the show notes as well. So thank you, thank you. Thank you. We'll have to do it again.
Yeah, that'll be good. I feel like it's a great amount of time for me to like, talk about like those we've talked were like three things, four things. That's been amazing. But we could definitely go deeper into creative processes and stuff in a future episode. Or just Yeah, well, we wonder when that could be. But that sounds a good thing to try and aim for for sure.
Yeah, I think maybe we should do another when we wrap up this one year of our Magic Mundane project.
