Want to be a Nonprofit Leader? Here's Your Pathway. - Dr. Patton McDowell, MBA, CFRE

3:11PM Feb 21, 2023

Speakers:

Julie Confer

Becky Endicott

Jonathan McCoy

Dr. Patton McDowell

Keywords:

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question

nonprofit

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people

nonprofit leaders

organization

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leadership

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Hey, I'm John. And I'm Becky. And this is the We Are For Good podcast.

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So welcome to the good community, where Nonprofit Professionals, philanthropist, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.

So let's get started. Becky, our friends in the house,

the leadership development goat has entered the we're for good, good studio I'm so excited about

us of all time right here. We it is a huge honor. We have gotten Patton McDowell in the house with us. And if you don't know him, you need to go follow him right now because he is this incredible nonprofit expert. He pours into the space about leadership development and really finding your path for nonprofit leadership. And this season, we're really honed in on pouring into ourselves pouring into our self care to get into the lane where we can just like come alive. And we can run faster in our positions. And I feel like Patton has been doing this for a really long time he spent a lot of thought leadership around it. And so we have been incredibly excited to have this conversation. But let me tell you a little bit about him. He is this best selling author, consultant and coach. He founded PMA nonprofit leadership back in 2009. And he's worked with nearly 275 organizations try to wrap your mind around that for a second. But before that he led development teams at two universities. And after nearly a decade of working for the Special Olympics International, which is a passion that's really close to his heart, I know. But he also has this incredible podcast your path to nonprofit leadership. He's had a lot of our podcast guests on it's an incredible show that really dives into this topic on the weekly and so it's something you need to catch. They're coming up on their 200th episode. And they feature leaders from around the world and all aligns with this idea. This book, his first book that he published called your path to nonprofit leadership, just in 2022. So this is you know, not just theory it is what has really this honed in understanding of what does it look like to really progress in a career that aligns with your values aligns with what brings you alive. And this is just what our friend camps out about every day of the week. So Mr. Patton is so good to have you in the house. Welcome to the We Are For Good podcast.

John, delighted to join you. And Becky here. Thank you for the opportunity.

Well, it is a huge honor. And I have just glazed over your very impressive resume. So I want to give you space to tell us a little bit about your journey, add some color to you know what brought you to wanting to pour into this space today.

Yeah, well, you did a very nice job. Thank you honored again to have this conversation because I really am passionate about leadership in our sector. There's so many good causes, and you to have had wonderful leaders of many of these causes. On your show. The sector needs to continue to develop leaders. And so I saw it I was fortunate early on, as you mentioned, Special Olympics gave me a wonderful opportunity for a college kid thinking that all right, an internship will be fun for me it was just a chance to go to DC for a summer. That was literally the extent of my vision for that. But it turned out to be a career defining opportunity. I went to Special Olympics international when Eunice Kennedy Shriver, the founder was still actively involved. So talk about mind blowing opportunity to see an incredible leader in building a global enterprise that Special Olympics International, certainly is that transforming us, as you said, spent 10 years there, realize that I needed to extend my skills and experience. And again, as you both know, and nonprofit, you got to be a fundraiser, you know, some Element, there's a philanthropic level. And that's where I tried to build my skills and ultimately, led fundraising teams at two universities and wonderful experiences there. But then I said, You know what, I'd like to take what I've learned, and try to help others. And as you said, John, what what gets me excited each day is working with nonprofit leaders or aspiring nonprofit leaders. And whether they're right out of college, you know, this is a career they've decided, or I have another category sometimes and I bet you to see this a lot. I call the mid career plateau. Like I've been doing this for a while, but now what, right I've hit a ceiling I've hit a wall. And then also just the senior leaders in our space that and I know We'll talk more about this, that they're tired, they're burned out. And if we don't invest in leadership's leadership at all three of those levels, the sector is going to hurt. And so that's really what drives me even further.

Thank you so much for that tone setting. Because I think a lot of people when they think about becoming a leader stepping into that role, that just start at the beginning, how do I, what do I do to get there? And you're exactly right about there are, there are seasons and seasons of change for leaders within the sector. And I love that it's going to be so applicable to such a broad audience here. And I just think you are such an expert in this patent. I mean, you are a doctor hat, towel. And I really thank you for the way that you pour in because you've worked with, you know, almost 300 organizations, not only just on leadership, development and fundraising, but also strategic planning. So when you think back and kind of do a retrospect on that, can you talk to us about what you've seen in terms of the common barriers that organizations and and do individuals face when it comes to their leadership development?

Yeah, biggest challenge, I think, and I, again, I'm being intentionally provocative. But we, as a nonprofit sector, do a bad job of annual evaluation or evaluation processes. Many do the kind of standard once a year HR required activity, but it doesn't lend itself to career or professional development. So that's a barrier. And I often start by saying that, again, not to pick on my friends in the sector, but when we should do better. And also say to you, as an individual leader in the sector, you need to own your own professional development, you don't wait for your organization to do it for you. Because you may or may not have a boss that is supportive of this effort. And your boss may be just buried in their own world, and therefore they can't focus on it, you got to own it yourself. The other problem I see though, Becky, is lack of definition and job descriptions. Again, the job we hire for or we apply for often is not what we ended up doing. And I think that creates a lot of stress. And it's no wonder that turnover exists in our sector, because we thought we were going to do this, we hired Oh, he got the job. And then there are nine other things that are thrown at us. And so organizations create barriers, I think right from the start, because they don't effectively define what the job is. And literally how you are going to get better so hard for you to build a plan around the job that's ill defined at the outset. The other thing, again, I have lots of conversations too, with nonprofit leaders board, the relationship with their boards of directors is often problematic. They're either micromanaging them, or they're disengaged, either case is not good. Right. And so the barriers, again, can come from that lack of definition, that lack of evaluation, and then the collateral issues of your board and that leadership, I think, as you ask Becky create problems that are barriers, right from the get go,

I just have to say like, Thank you for breaking all of that down. Because I will say that I am guilty of every single one of those that leads me to some point in my career. And I also think that last little bullet on our job descriptions that's so finicky that all other duties as assigned, is so nebulous, and I and I want to give space to recognize, you know, the nonprofit survivors out there, we've heard of several who have survived COVID. And they have absorbed other jobs, you know, of staff members who have left as they're in hiring freezes, and it tends to be a lot and when you're taking on that many duties, it's hard to create space for yourself to actually grow important to important thing. So I'm really glad we're gonna go into this. And thank you for that great overview.

To add to that, what you often what I do, and this may be something for your listeners to consider. I do a pie chart. When I see somebody's job description, I say alright, based on this pie chart looks like you do 50% of this and 20% of that, and 30% of this. And then I'm like yeah, but I want let's let's draw the pie chart as it really exists. And Becky, as you said, that's when it often pours out like Yeah, I know, I'm supposed to be fundraising 50 60% of the time, but I'm not. Because I'm now doing the website. I'm now doing communications, I'm now running these special events. And so that lack of clarity, often though, is best illustrated by a simple pie chart exercise, which maybe then gets you to think about alright, what should my pie chart look like? You know, and then back to the original question how we build a professional development plan might be alright, how do we get you from only doing 30% of what you should be doing up to 50 or 60 and so sorry to get into the tactical for a moment but hit me The middle has helped me.

I think you've already taken this like to big picture and some to some tactical stuff. But I want to think about I mean, you've put your flag around this path to nonprofit leadership. And I just think it's really cool that we can even be having this conversation with somebody new to the sector, because I'll be honest, in the last 15 years, I feel like that wasn't even on the radar of most people in college of like, oh, this may be my path. But I love that there are people that are kind of hardwired that want to pour into this work, but it does feel kind of like a big path ahead of them. What are some of the stuff that you've learned, you know, throughout your career, for someone that really wants to build a career and be in this for a lifetime? How can they do that sustainably? And what are some of the milestones? You know, to

get to Great question, what's encouraging, though, John to there are more people, literally young people coming right out of collegiate programs that didn't exist when I was going through my undergraduate years. I think three of us may have talked about this a little bit. But there are 300 or more now, programs and nonprofit leadership management philanthropy. So there are people hardwired, I love that term, John, that are going to get into the sector. So let's help them find the path. And then to your question. I think there there really six questions I would pose to someone thinking about this sector. And so I've kind of developed this little exercise in there six characteristics. Now, you can decide later whether it's worth writing down, right, but maybe it will. But here's the thing, I think for a young professional, it can be overwhelming to ask our What do you want to do? You know, what's your vision for your nonprofit path? And I think that's hard. Because I'm like, they don't know what they don't know. So I'm like, Alright, let's break it down. Let's think about and this could apply even to an early stage professional. Number one is your timeline. Is this something you you're making a decision in the next year for a move or change a start? Or you're in a position that you like, maybe you're in on a five year track? So timeline is question number one, because again, we can build your plan around it, but we need to know what it is. So if I'm, you know, that mid career plateau, I'm stuck. Alright, that might be somebody's like, yeah, get me out of here. Now, Patton helped me, I need to plan in the short term, I don't need a 10 year vision, because this is not working. So timeline is number one. Number two is sector. And this is what my advice is often build your kind of credentials and resume in a generalist fashion. Be careful about specializing too soon. I love Special Olympics. But as I look back, I thought that was the only ladder I could climb. So I was building my skills and experience around the Special Olympics ladder, I'll be a program director, maybe I'll be a VP someday and perhaps an executive director. Yeah. Right. But I'm like, Hey, and my father famously told me, basically, patent there are the ladders, you know, don't limit yourself to a single ladder. So build your skills and experiences around. You know what I would call more a generalist, so that you can move, but that leads back to the second element. I was gonna say, sector, what are you heart driven to? Is it education? Is it healthcare? Is it arts and culture? Is environment? No Wrong answer. But I'd like to know what really turns your professional heart strings on. And if you're, if you're set good for you. But I often push people like, Alright, you're in education now. But would you entertain healthcare, if the right opportunity came up? So maybe there are two sectors that you would entertain on your ladder? The third thing I would ask you is is geography. Right? And you may be placed bound your family's here, you're not going anywhere. Okay, that's fine, then let's build your plan around. I'm in Charlotte, you know, or you're in Los Angeles. So you're in Tokyo, wherever. Let's build it. But the question inherent there is like, would you move, because some people do have the flexibility. And I'm like, Alright, that's good to know. So maybe we can strategize if you're in Charlotte, but you might entertain Atlanta, or Raleigh or Nashville, then we've got a plan we can build around that. But I think a lot of people, again, my original point, if it makes sense is that we're overwhelmed with this broad notion of I gotta have my whole vision figured out. Let's break it down and answer the questions you can answer. I look at scope of work. You know, some people like the scope of an organization where I can wear a lot of hats. It's a small shop. And I like the ability to do different things. Otherwise, you might say, You know what, I like being in a larger institution. That's fine, too. Because, you know, there are more resources and maybe I can specialize. So but I think you need to be intentional about that question. Right? Am I a large shop small shop and how do I fit on that continuum? Position? I'm counting my six right John. So you maybe your notes are gonna help me out here. Make sure I don't miss it. I'm roughly on five. And I'm speaking roughly two I guess right so quickly that I'll finish position do you want to be the senior leader you know? have to be some people are like, Yeah, I want to be a president, I want to be an executive director, I want to be CEO. Others might say, No, I'd like to be, though at the top of my ladder, maybe just the best at what I do, I want to be a program director for Special Olympics, and I want to be, you know, the best I can be the best in the country or whatever. But there is a relative continuum there, too, that's worth exploring. And then finally, and we can't miss this, because we often do in our sector, is financial support compensation. Thank you,

I was really hoping you were gonna say that as your last one,

I saved it. So you could help me cheer me on the top. I know, we don't get often into this sector because of the financial reward. But you have a right to be compensated, and provide for you and your family or whoever. And I think sadly, a lot of folks don't think about that early. And then they hit the brick wall. And so I'm like, let's talk about it. Now. You may love your job now, but we need to consider will there be opportunities for advancement and or, you know, financial support that you deserve? And so, that is a long answer, John, to your good question, though. But I hope I love you breaks down for someone like us, I don't know, patent, what I want to do, I'm like, Alright, let's go run down this checklist, answer the ones you can, and we'll work on the ones you're not ready to answer. And hopefully, that gives someone a bit of a platform as they contemplate their path forward.

I mean, packing, you've just given everyone a little lifeline here. And I think you've done it with a lot of grace, truly. Because I think what we've discovered in our communities, people just asking, like, where do I start, you know, to know if I want to get on this leadership path? Or if I'm in the right seat on the bus, or am I in the right sector. And I think these exploratory questions are so helpful in the grace to be able to not have it all figured out, I think is a good thing. And I want to just tie it back, because our number 120 23 trend, John alluded to this is prioritizing self growth. And if you have a plan of intention around how you're going to grow, and you have habits baked into how you are moving that plan forward, this dovetails in so nicely. And I will tell you, I think having that plan is going to help make the case for that financial pay question that you have in a much stronger way, because you're showing what you're bringing to the table, you're showing how you're growing. And I just think that that was such a great exercise. And it kind of leads me to this next question I have, which is just like how, what are some tangible questions that our listeners could ask themselves, when they're starting to reflect on their careers, like, whether they're in a job transition, whether they're wanting to grow? Or whether there's trying to break into the sector? Like, what are those magical questions, and I'm guessing they're probably pretty simple about how they can kind of set intention around the future of their career path.

Yes, well put back in and that the the, what I suggest some of the topics that John just raised, and those six themes or questions are a good place to start. So in other words, instead of the overwhelming, you know, what am I going to do when I grow up? Let's break it down into some tactical questions about career planning. And then what I tried to build to and it's, you will find this interesting, because you all know this organizations, and typically the professionals there are really good at making a case for support for their organization. But here's the question, can someone make a case for support for themselves? And I would encourage, again, particularly fundraisers that do this every day, but then I'll ask him, I make a case for yourself. And so what I do Becky and pondering that question, I encourage what I call mission, vision action. So like you do for your organization, you articulate right, what we do, why it's important? That's our mission. Special Olympics was really good about Mrs. Shriver was adamant that we knew this. We provide year round competition and training for individuals with intellectual disabilities and a variety of Olympic style sports. So I almost still remember that. Because by the way, Mrs. Shriver, I don't know if she cultivated it, or it was real, but we were terrified that she would stop us and ask us to recite the mission statement.

You know, that's happened to Becky and me, literally, from our CEO. It was the most awkward of board meetings of but who knows the mission.

And literally,

there's something about the point that makes you clam up like I don't know my name right now. I can tell you my mission.

Again, that was just a funny aside that I don't think Mrs. Shriver actually ever stopped anybody so

tiny. I love the shadow she cast. It's amazing.

But but maybe she just created that myth to remind us, yes, we need to be ready to articulate the mission. And so I've kind of translated what organizationally is a mission, which by the way, I think is a great fundraising tactic. Mission is We do vision, though, represents the need that still exists, and why we are doing what we do. So Mr. Shriver would say, again, we're proud of we've serving 30,000 people in North Carolina, maybe, but they're 100,000 More than need us. And so that vision was able to capture the hook. And she would say, like, we're gonna get to half of them in the next five years. I was like, wow, that was good fundraising. 101, just in two words, mission, vision, action, finishing that formula is actions. What are you gonna do about this year? In other words, we don't just want to have this poetic vision statement that someday it's going to be better. So if that makes sense, particularly to the fundraisers, listening right now, they're like, Yeah, I do that every day. I'm like, Alright, apply to yourself. What? What is your mission? Again, John, you're the heartstrings as you put it, and talk about so if I were meeting with someone who's Senior in my sector, who wants to help me? Could I articulate my own mission vision action? Too many people I have coffee with or zoom with? A lot of times, I don't mean to pick on them, but they're like, yeah, just I hate my job. Get me out of here. It's just dreadful. And I don't know what to do. Woe is me. And I'm like, Alright, I'm sympathetic. But let's turn our mindset here. What are we gonna do about it? What are you passionate about in your mission? So Becky, finally getting to your good question, right? What are you passionate about? And tell me about your experience and how it has built you to the professional you are now? What is your vision? And that gets back John, to your questions, that topic, right? Geography sector, scope of work, and so forth. And tell me what you're doing to get better. I guarantee your next organization is gonna hire you, they, they like what you've done your mission to now, but they want to know, you're still gonna get better. So I want to hear somebody say, I'm committed to lifelong learning. Let me tell you what I'm doing. I'm taking a course on you know, Legacy giving, because I know that's something to sharpen my skill or my toolbox or whatever. So, that to me, though, Becky, I hope gives a framework for someone who's trying to articulate put it into a similar case for support methodology that you likely do for your nonprofit.

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I feel like I'm sitting at coffee with you and you're coaching us right here. You're such a gifted coach, and just the questions you're throwing out in the way you're centering this conversation is so powerful, you're leading us into thinking about action. And I love that you're putting those together, because a lot of our conversations, especially in the last couple of weeks in our community have been like, you know, we can be aligned, we can talk about these big dreamy things, but when it comes down to actually taking action is where people get tripped up. Yeah. And I know this a big part of your book is about how do we elevate our overall productivity in our personal and professional settings. And I think that's such a powerful thing. Because at the end of the day, that's what we need to be able to do. Like how are we actually moving forward? Can you help us unwind that? How do you how do you elevate your productivity?

I'd love to say that I've arrived on that answer. It's a lifelong journey. Right? So let's let's give ourselves grace, again, as you said, Becky, but I think I have gotten better. And I've learned from people. And so number one is proactive calendaring. You know, sounds simple. But again, I hope this gets somebody's wheels turning. You've got to carve out time for yourself. And I get it, you're busy and your calendar can quickly overwhelm you. So what are you doing to carve out some time for you on a daily and weekly basis? So for me, I'm now an early. I'm an early bird. So I'm making sure that I've got calendar time to get organized for the day. I also am trying to carve time early in the week. Now, I don't care what your plan is, but are you carving out time for yourself on a daily and weekly basis? Number one, that's helped me be more effective and more productive. John, to your good question. Being proactive around your calendar to with everybody else, don't default to the one hour time slot on your calendar, just because there's an hour implied. You know, I'm seeing a lot of people and I've started doing this too, instead of just bumping to an hour, let's do it. Let's put it for 45 minutes. Let's, let's block it for 30 minutes. Instead of then, because I hear this too, I bet you all do, you can quickly go back to back to back to back to back and you never get to really internalize the discussions you're having. So don't do 60 minutes Do 45 Do 30 You know, own the time, and then give yourself some some latitude. This single best productivity tactic I have learned and I give David Allen and getting things done. His famous book credit, is the weekly review. I just find that the volume of activity that comes at us can quickly overwhelm and, you know, it doesn't take one or two days to be behind, and you've lost stuff that's important. So for me every Saturday morning, you know, as my kids got older, they were asleep and half the day on a weekend anyway, so it was quiet. And so I was like, Alright, I would just do this exercise, I'd go back through the week behind seven days back and walk back through the calendar. Inevitably, I'm like, oh, yeah, I forgot. I promised somebody on Tuesday to follow up this way. Or I was going to follow up and create this, you know, item or to do lists. So it seems so Elementary, but it's been wonderful. And I do that and then I look seven days ahead. Instead of letting the calendar come to me, like I think many of us feel the firehose of our daily calendar. Look ahead, what do you what do you have next Tuesday? What do you have next Wednesday, think about the activity or actions required. And so that, you know, are a few things that have helped me hopefully, be a little more productive

patent. Again, here I am at coffee, feeling very exposed.

I feel like I'm Homer Simpson just stepping back into the

this is powerful. I mean, so powerful. And I just think of just our life, right in this moment, is it is stewardship, like in its greatest form is like, you know, we've had this opportunity these times with people throughout the week like, this is stewardship of those relationships, to take time for ourselves, and to like, be able to be really good partners in this work. So I'm putting this down, I'm changing my Calendly. For those of you listening with Calendly, it has kind of ruined my life at

the same time, don't let it take you to 60 minutes if you don't need

6050 minutes and give yourself 10 minutes in between walk around zoom fatigue is totally real. And I actually love that we're talking about that. Because you mentioned at the onset of this conversation, the very real burnout feeling, yes, the compassion fatigue, you know, the mental health crisis that we're seeing unfold within nonprofit professionals right now. And that is an extremely real reality. And I want you to talk to the leader who may be listening this right now and they feel stuck right now in their current position or in their organization. What advice would you share with them? Patton,

you've got to unplug literally, from your organization. To some extent. I'm a fan. I touched on this in the book of taking a personal retreat on a semi annual basis. Again, think about how many times we've been dragged to a retreat for our organization, and had to sit through a painful, you know, seminar on this or that. I'm like, Alright, if we're gonna go waste today, sorry, folks that have had retreats lately. Have you considered a personal retreat, I now have gotten to the point. And this is either really nerdy or maybe really effective. Designing a weekend retreat for myself. How many times do you ever get in John? I bet with four little ones running around. You don't get much quiet time. Maybe I'm guessing ever. But many of our friends. Yeah, exactly. That's the only time left and the backing for anything. So to your question. I think to the extent your organization will let you can you work from home some and allow yourself more uninterrupted thinking time? I think most of our friends in the sector don't get that. And can you plan some time to get out of the office? And so maybe that's just a morning that you don't literally come into the office if you're allowed. And then on a once or twice a year basis? I like to have literally some sort of overnight getaway. You know, every one of us have some cousin or friend that's got I don't know a cabin or or cottage or an apartment? You got to find that time I guarantee it, you know, you'll be 10 years into your career. And you're like, Yeah, where's the time gone? So I, again, sorry for the long answer, Becky, but to your good question for that person that's feeling burned out, isolating some time. And the second piece of advice I'd give was making sure you have a tight knit network of comparable peers, and aspirational peers to have each. Because I feel like that's the best network, especially if I'm just, I'm out a wall or hitting the wall. Talk to somebody else, maybe intentionally out of your sector, out of your community. But hey, this is the wall I've hit, what do you think? But I feel like and I worry, again, Becky, to your question of many of our nonprofit colleagues are very alone. They feel it, they can't talk to their staff about it, they can't talk to their board about it. And so they're, you know, ultimately just going to get out of the sector. And that's a shame that we lose talent, because of, you know, that type of system.

I love that you're lifting that. I mean, it's it goes back to our value, that community is everything. And I mean, we believe that in the way that nonprofit missions are established, I mean, it's all about community, but it's about also just having those relationships in our own life. And this is not a plug for our community. But I guess it is, but since so many of those relationships emerge and it like is so life giving to see happen, because I think geography doesn't matter. You know, in that sense anymore. It's there are people that are looking for other people to go on this journey together. And no, because they're in our community. So if you feel that, like there are aspirational people in that community, there are people that are doing the same work that you're doing there. So just a plug to go find your people wherever it is.

And I've want to share a personal story of how that happened in our community. In December, we have a monthly community and coffee, it's open to anyone that wants to come. We talk about issues that are very real, everybody gets a chance to share. And I've been visiting with someone in our community for a couple of weeks, who was really struggling through a very toxic work environment. And I was really proud of her because she steps up to community coffee. And she very vulnerably shares it with everyone and talks about what she's going through. And the amount of head nodding and hand raising and affirmation that was given to her of not Oh, I'm going through that too. And also, oh, have you thought about this as a resource. And oh, if you want to talk to me, I'm a coach. And I can give you some tips on that. I just think your point about finding community that is aspirational, that's going to not only be there to catch you when you're having those moments of doubt or hard moments, but also to point you back to your where you are facing forward, so that you're constantly moving up and moving forward. That's got to feel better than going it alone. So thank you for talking about that. And just letting us live that moment that was really inspirational for us.

Well, thank you for lifting it up. And thank you too, for the community you're creating, because I do think it may be the single most important thing. I talked to many leaders and you know, they can get the kind of tactical advice and the content and all that, but they need community and even before COVID. And so you're creating that. And I just think that's huge, because I think that will keep people in the sector who otherwise we would lose.

Yeah, I agree with you. Well, I mean, I'm starting to be feel really sad, because we're starting to like wind down to some of our kind of core questions at the end. But this one is so rich, like this conversation, and just appreciate the way that you kind of posture, your life in this world. But I want to ask you about philanthropy. I mean, this is something we sit around and we just smile and feel moved by on the daily here, I'm gonna give you space to talk about a moment that philanthropy has really changed you. And I know you've been in organizations, you coached so many organizations, when's the moment that you're like, Man, this is this what this is all about?

You know, I finished where I start with Mrs. Shriver, as a young person, not really appreciating, I had volunteered as a high school student, but had no appreciation for philanthropy and the power of philanthropy. And so I just was very fortunate to get to see her up close and see the power of her vision. You know, she started Special Olympics, because the Kennedys had a sister, who had you know, intellectual disabilities, Rosemary. And so there was a personal speaking of a personal kind of element to it. But she turned that personal element starting an organization in her backyard in Maryland, to a global organization that's helping similarly challenged individuals all over the world. And so I guess, John at it, it literally starts there for me, you know, in terms of career planning, but the power of philanthropy, her ability to articulate a mission and a vision and encourage investment. It's been hard for me to match that ever since right? And so that's why I feel compelled to lift up Shriver in her work as something that's been, you know, really powerful for me personally.

I mean, no one is surprised that your story would be celebrating brilliant, bold, trust based leadership and be. And I love that so much. And God bless all of our philanthropist, our nonprofit leaders of EDs, thank you for what you do out there, how you inspire the sector, and just really appreciate you creating space for that. So that, you know, we end all of our conversations with the one good thing. And I'm wondering what you would offer up to our community today, maybe a habit, quote, What

have you got one good idea for you, or maybe it's a good idea, you decide. Here's a way to keep professional development in in an active and tactical way. Think about that you are in graduate school for life. And you need to plan every semester or term with things that will help you I'm always I have a self assessment tool that I use, and we've got a dozen kind of skills and experience I think are essential for nonprofit leaders. And and you're always going to be working on things. But what I think about is I want to work on two of them every semester. So again, doesn't mean you're literally going back to school, but what are you going to work on this spring semester, so maybe it's like, hey, I want to understand cryptocurrency. So that's going to be the knowledge base goal I have for this term. And I can decide how I'm going to do that. So that's one kind of knowledge base go I want a knowledge base goal and a skill base goal every semester, spring, summer fall. Okay, so cryptocurrency is going to be my knowledge, you know, acquisition effort, and there may be public speaking, is the skill I'm going to work on. And so again, we can put specific kind of tactics around each of those. But, again, Becky, it has helped me, even though I did go through some graduate programs, I'm thought that I should keep doing that, you know, lifelong learning is important. And so I felt like that helped me, in my mind, think about instead of a vague Yeah, I want to get better at public speaking, you know, over the rest of my career, know, what are you going to do about it in this semester, or this term. And so I have found that helpful, and perhaps that will give someone else a new way to think about their professional development planning.

I've so enjoyed going to the university, Professor McDowell today, learn so much. That's fantastic. Thanks,

Sam. And I just think that the somebody listening today, you're going to be like, Okay, I got to like, find you online, I gotta get your book, I've got to listen to your podcast, help us sync up to all the things of how you show up online. And tell us about your coaching to

honored to share and delighted to have these conversations and grateful again for this conversation. And as you can tell, I love this conversation, if anyone is interested in having it, the website is patent mcdowell.com. So just go to my name. And that will lead you to the programs and activities we do one of them and like you I'm trying to create community through a mastermind program. So it has been among the most rewarding things I've done. A colleague of mine, Lee Williams, for now for I guess we've had a dozen different cohorts come through. And it's been awesome to bring nonprofit leaders from all over the country into a program and into a community like you all are doing here. But the podcast and the book are both titled your path to nonprofit leadership didn't have a lot of creative creative skills beyond a single phrase. So I just ran with it. I'm probably most active on LinkedIn. So website, book, podcast, and LinkedIn. And I'd be delighted to continue this conversation if others would like to do so.

Well, this has just been a breath of fresh air, I encourage everybody to go check out all the ways you can connect with Pat. And clearly you're gonna get some incredible coaching there. And then you just get that amazing southern North Carolina dialect in the background. And that's free. So such a good, good human. Thank you for this incredible teaching and just the way you show up kindly and with empathy. I think we're really going to build on to something really important here within this community. Appreciate you infusing that.

Thanks for the opportunity. And both of you. Thank you.

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