Hi friends, we really wanted to close out the final week of the year was something truly inspiring and human. So welcome to Good humans week on the podcast. And this series has just one interviewer this time around, and it's me. So as John and Julie produce, they really let me run. So meet our 2021 Good humans, Suanne, Arnall, and Trinity heavens, we don't want you to simply know their story. We want you to know them, their heart, their lived experience, their passions, their fears, its vulnerability and humanity converging to more deeply connect us their story, and to remind us why we fight for things that matter. At their core, both Suanne and Trinity represent the best and what it means to be a good human. We hope you enjoy their stories. I want to welcome everybody to good humans and good humans are they're not just billionaires and wealthy individuals. They're not celebrities and CEOs. They are the most full hearted, generous people among us who have boldly stepped out onto a precipice, to be a positive force for good with their philanthropy, their influence, their empathy and their activism. And the individual that we are talking to today absolutely encompasses all of that she is an extraordinary woman. She is a mother. She is a writer. She is a generously warm human. And she always sees the little guy, and she works quietly and humbly in the background to make life more equitable and fulfilling for those around her and she is a Titan and a force for good. She is an industry veteran. She's achieved a number of milestones in her career with Continental Resources, and other companies within industry. I think one of her most impressive successes was a lawsuit that she won to protect the company's assets securing a $30 million judgment, which is the largest punitive damage award in Oklahoma. But in 2015, she really founded the Arnold Family Foundation, which focuses on child welfare, animal welfare and criminal justice reform. And she is so passionate about focusing on solutions that lower the incarceration rate and racial disparity among African American men in US jails and prisons. The thing that I love so much about her is she is from Poteau, Oklahoma population at 800. She got her degree at the University of Tulsa, she got a bachelor's degree in economics. And she also has her Juris Doctorate. Incredible Human. Welcome to Good humans. Thanks for being here. Suzanne.
Thanks, Becky, it's kind of hard to live up to that the way you, oh,
man, you have no idea what we're about to dive into. And I have a feeling that people are just going to fall in love with the incredible person that you are, but I really think people are gonna want to understand how does a girl from Poteau, Oklahoma, make it to the point where you are signing the giving pledge and giving away the vast majority of your wealth, and seeing people for exactly where they are in life and kind of extending your hand to help them. So maybe just start by telling us a little bit about your story.
Growing up in Poteau, we didn't have enough people to really filled every sport and every activity. So everybody was in everything. And it's a drawback to grow up in a small town as far as learning what's going on in the world, especially back then 50 years ago, but it's not a drawback in terms of gaining confidence, because I was a cheerleader, and I was in the band. And in my little cheerleading uniform, I had to go out and marching the band at halftime. That's what we did, that we had football players who were in the band, they had to go march time, I went to college on a full ride music scholarship. But while I was there, I was with some really good people extremely talented. I practiced a lot, but I didn't have that innate talent. And I realized that it was going to be a long haul for them to even as good as they were. So I changed my major to economics. It was a little bit like reading music and tried to transpose reading graphs, charts, trying to make something out of it. And so then I went on to law school, because I didn't know what to do with the economics degree.
And I mean, what was your dream? What when you were in college, and we were going through law school? What were you thinking about the sort of place that you wanted to be in the world and the mark you wanted to set?
I really wanted to be a criminal defense attorney. That was my dream to be in the courtroom and trying to write wrongs. And I had that opportunity at one point where I worked for a public defender. And that was incredible. I worked for a Federal Public Defender when I was in law school, and then a firm that had gotten a public defender contract. So I was there person and went to court and tried to get people out, tried to get them through arraignments and preliminary hearings. And I thoroughly thoroughly enjoyed it. And I became so connected to the clients and Because I was young, it wasn't the healthiest thing for me at that point. And I recognize that too. So I had already worked in the oil industry all my life really. So I went back to that. And it was easier to keep it on the desk in the computer. Leave it when I went home, felt like this was a better way. For me to live. While I had kids, when they were at home,
we've been able to have just what I have my side is just like a very special little friendship. And I have so enjoyed and looked up to you in the way that we talk about both of our girls. And I wonder like just about your two beautiful daughters. And I know that you're very close with them. And what did they think of mom today,
when they were growing up, and I was working so much, because even though it wasn't like criminal defense, I wasn't becoming attached to people. I, I have a pretty good work ethic. I started working when I was seven in seventh grade, going to work everyday after school, every summer, every holiday. So went to work at work, but it was really hard to leave them. Occasionally, I would they call me all the time on the phone, I always had sir. And I worried they blamed me when I had to travel for it. Or I thought they blame me it was tough on them. But now they say that they're really happy I worked. And so I'm glad that they recognize if on the other side said they've told me they admire me for working because now that they look back, it was tough. And it was tough.
I want to pivot a little bit and I want to talk about the Arnall Foundation. I have to be completely honest that I am a huge, huge fan completely geeked out with how you have structured your foundation, how absolutely finite and focused you are on three core areas. And I want you to just talk about setting up a foundation and how did you pick these three core areas and what was the goal and the intent behind it.
I truly had no real plan. When I started it. I just knew I needed to I was already involved in animal welfare. And I helped get the puppy mill bill passed in Oklahoma 10 years ago, because of Oklahoma being in such a situation where we euthanized probably the most in the country. It was between us Arkansas and Missouri. I thought that's what I know. That's what I'll focus on with a FF Arnall Family Foundation. But then a friend who worked at the Department of Human Services here in Oklahoma, was telling me about the kids that aged out of foster care. And she said they're they have no safety net when they age out, that broke my heart. And she had this idea of an organization from out of state, who had a program that was very, was evidence base. They had great results in doing wraparound services for kids who were about to age out and had aged up. So I made a pretty large grant for that. That was my first really large grant and then became involved start learning. And that way, we've got to stop these kids from even going into foster care, because I'd learned that we weren't just taking them out for intentional neglect, but also situational, situational, something like living in your car because you can't afford rent, electricity being turned off water being turned off mother not being able to afford childcare. So leaving young kids homeless, she went to work that situational has nothing to do with the love of parent has for the child, or the love the child has for the parent. It's just tough circumstances. We were taking kids out for that. And intentional neglect. Yes, absolutely. But with so many kids be taken out just because their parents couldn't provide for them that why don't we go help them? Why don't we help the family so that they can keep their kids, once the kid gets taken out of his home he's ever traumatized. It's horrific. Going to a new family, even if it's the most fabulous family in the world, that insecurity a child has is horrible. And I recognized immediately that in Oklahoma, we were saying that's a state's problem, not our problem. And I thought, No, it's not my problem. It's our problem. These are our kids. When our state takes custody of these kids away from their parents. They're our responsibility. It's up to all of us to try to make it better. And so it became very involved in child welfare, specifically children who were either going into foster care in foster care or about to go in. So then I started getting into the circumstances for these children. How did they end up of foster care? Because there were a lot who had parents who did love them, but they had been in jail or prison. At one point, we have the highest number of kids in foster care. We have the highest number of people in prison or incarcerated. There's got to be a connection. So start looking at that and there absolutely was it connection. And we had a pretty long discussion here at a FF on whether we could transition into criminal justice, did it fit within our goals? And everybody after they saw the data set? Absolutely, it does. Because we have the highest number, then that I really can't address all of those people in prison. There's just no way there's not enough money. There's not enough time, resources, what if we work on trying to keep them from going? So we narrowed our focus on people in in jail, and about the inner prison and trying to we call it stop the flow, slow the flow. And so that's where we've been focused pretrial. And post Senate same but pre prison, I always like data, I love to look at numbers. And I'd love to try to figure out what the trend is on those. That's an omics majoring you? Yeah, it's gotta be. And the Crude Oil Trading problem is the numbers, looking at trends, trying to figure out what to do. So I saw 40% of the people who enter DRC department of corrections that year had entered as a result of a revocation of probation. Over half of those had on their revocation, it wasn't because of the No offense, it was because of violation of the terms. They call those technical violations. So there were people perfectly harmless, living their lives working, trying to get by, but they can't afford to get the bus, if they have a job to go get that year and analysis that they're given a couple of hours to do. They can't afford to go to the service providers and pay the service providers. A lot of them will not allow the person in if they don't pay first. So it's as if they didn't show up if they go in the California camp with 25 $35. To get in. I went to a couple of these organizations, and sat in on their classes. And one girl fainted while she was there. It turned out she had donated plasma before she got there. I am not making this stuff up. This is so common, you donate a plasma so that she could afford to get into the class because she had to get through the class so she could get her kids back. We've put so many monetary burdens on people to get through the system. And that's why 85% of the people in our Oklahoma County Jail, they're under a federal poverty guidelines. They're indigent, they can't afford the bond. They can't afford an attorney, they can't afford the service fees. They can't afford everything stacked up on them. So they end up in prison forever. And their kids end up in state care. And that's the cycle that I'm looking at even still in federal stats on crimes. And whether you're a safe community, violent community, the crimes that they judge, or take data on are crimes against people and crimes against property. Nowhere in that is taking drugs, nowhere. Drugs are not criminalized in the federal guidelines for what's the crime. However, in Oklahoma 1/3 of the people we arrest, it's drug related, if we just stopped doing that, not drug trafficking, just drug related. If we stopped doing that, can you imagine the number of people who wouldn't be in jail and the Department of Corrections, it would be culture shifting, several states don't criminalize to that degree anymore. And their incarceration rates are lower. But for some reason, it's still going on. And it's still criminalized. So the police and the judges get to choose what they enforce. And when they say I can't go by that crime and not arrest them. Yeah, they do. They do every day. They go by all these crimes, they just don't choose to arrest. They pick and choose who they arrest, and what they arrest for. And it's reinforced by our district attorneys, by our judges also and by the public.
I have to tell you, just as someone who is hardwired, for fairness and for justice, that goes all over me. And I want to pause right here because what you have just said is so ground shaking to me. And all I keep thinking is, you know, to me, there's a very stark difference between being a donor and being a philanthropist. And my friend, you are certainly a philanthropist because I think anybody can throw money at an at a problem, but to actually do the work. And and I actually am sitting here thinking you might be the one person who is so uniquely qualified to take this on. Because you have that economics background. You have the legal background and you have Have a massive heart for justice. And the fact that you're curious enough to dig into the hard data, because I think that's probably what scares a lot of people away is, the more you dig, the more you find, and the more you keep uncovering, and the layers of it are systemic and the way that they are. And so I just am here to give you the biggest Virtual hug. And thank you for what you're doing. Because I think it's very hard to find someone who has the resources, who can bring to bear to solve some of these problems, who has the influence, who can say, hey, this isn't right, and we need to build something around it, and to invest your time, your talent, all of your funds into creating structures that equalize. That, to me is probably the greatest gift that you are giving to our community right now. So one, I want to thank you so much for that. And I have to think that there has got to be a ripple effect to this. Because if we help one person, it would be worth it to change the trajectory of their life. But if we could massively influence an entire community estate, I mean, I hate to be true dramatic, but that is how you change the world.
I think so also, we're not going to go into how I became infamous. But I, it was a horrible point of my life about 10 years ago, and I was infamous, not famous, infamous, there's a difference. And I was horribly embarrassed to horribly depressed over it. But then I thought, dang, I'm going to use be an infamous. And I'm going to get meetings and I did. Everybody I called I got a meeting with I was so surprised. But after I got through that, I decided just to use the fact that people do my name, and call and try to get meetings. So I, I did. And I was able to learn the players in criminal justice, the players in child welfare, the people interested the people not so interested, the people who were antagonist and the protagonist. And that was very different from the way I'm wired to call a lot of people I don't know, do cold calls, do meetings. And, but it worked. And I'm glad I did it.
And here you are changing the world.
I'm accused of getting into the weeds too much. But we all the whole US lives under the same constitution, we have the same US Constitution, but it's how its implemented, how we follow it or don't follow it. So just changing the laws not enough, you have to make sure it can be implemented follow up. And of course, the end, just because you've changed a lot doesn't mean that a state changed. So without knowing what's happening at the grassroots, you really can't make a change, I didn't feel like I could make a change. If I just stayed up there and said, Hey, get this law pass, give these people some money, I couldn't see that working. And I also was told to go for the gaps and services gaps that needs don't chase that last dog like after we get to 90% live release rate for animals, we don't keep chasing that last dog, move on, find another need. And so that's what we're doing. We look for the needs, and we're not going to be in that space forever. We intend to change it. And that's why I'm putting a lot of money into this area. Because I want to change it. Now I don't want to drag it out. I don't want my money to last forever. I want to spend it now and change this. And I intend to.
I love that you are so flexible. And I love what you're saying about being resilient and listening and going where the need is. And I want to transition a little bit into the giving pledge. And and I want to be clear with everyone who's watching or listening right now that the reason that Suzanne made it onto our ungettable get list. The reason that we reached out to her and asked her to do this interview is because when I read her giving pledge letter, it was one of those moments where I felt changed. And as a writer, I love reading other people's thoughts. And I've certainly read all of the giving pledge letters, but this one stood out to me. And the reason it stood out to me is because when I read it, it was one of the most selfless letters, one that I had ever heard of. There are not a lot of eyes in it. It's more about looking outward, which I think is is an incredible lens and a tone to set in something like that. But the other thing that I noticed and I know I said this too, I think the first time we ever visited it felt less like a Giving Pledge letter to me and it felt more like a love letter to your daughters. And I want to read something very quickly from it that I just love so much. Money does not buy happiness, but it can buy freedom, freedom from worry about your or your child's world. Being your next meal, or freedom from worry about simply surviving another day. So I take this privilege of wealth with a great deal of gratitude and humility, and will attempt to use it to buy freedom for those shackled by poverty, neglect, or the cruel fate of circumstance that is in itself powerful. But it's not my favorite part. So I went, I want to read my favorite part. Several years ago, I received the support of my two daughters, Jane and Hillary in this pursuit of giving away all of your wealth. At an early age, my daughter, Jane encouraged me to devote all of my resources to philanthropy. In my dream of helping others, she assured me that my love and happiness were far more important to her than any inheritance she might receive. As they have grown older, both of my daughters have become even more adamant that I pursue this dream. One, I just want to say that, to have daughters, who understand that privilege in the gift of what you're doing to the world, bravo to you, mom, way to go. And then to, to know that I almost see the three of you in lockstep doing this together. And it is a really beautiful thing. So I, I'm just curious about your giving pledge, why you decided to sign it. And I have to say, from the point you started your foundation, you signed this Giving Pledge very quickly, in my opinion. So it tells me that it was in within you the whole time. So talk to me about your giving pledge.
I don't know about your most people, but whenever I heard about someone who left their wealth to other things, besides their children, I thought, Oh, they must not love their children, their disinheriting their children, and I could never do that to my kids. Jane approaching me and, and Hillary agreeing and encouraging me, really freed me from that worry. Because now I know, they're not going to think that I don't love them, if I don't leave all my money to them. In fact, they're encouraging me not to, they said, it's your money, Mom, you need to do what makes you happy. I've always wanted to give away money, that that's just what I do. That's what I want
to do. Me too modestly. But yes.
And then I knew who was in the giving pledge. And they're incredible people. And they run incredible plant therapies. There are quite a few members. They're young, they're very innovative, and they have innovative ideas for philanthropy, social impact, social impact bonds, I've learned so much they had these learning series throughout the year. And those are incredible, they have these best in the world, people come talk to us about a certain vehicle for making a change, or the thought process the steps, how to develop a program, the advice available, there is something I couldn't get anywhere else, I did not want to be a normal Foundation, where I just wrote checks, they don't want to only get money for some program, they want to get money for operations so they can grow to and develop best practices. So they know sometimes when they're not, they don't have the best program that is available, but they can't afford to switch. So I wanted to be that investment money that risk money for organizations. But what we do is we figure out what we want to cause to happen. And then we start learning the community, what's going on, who's a good player who has integrity, who's respected, and then we'll develop a plan so that we can cause the impact. And that's what we do. Occasionally, an organization will find out about an organization that has that plan, but they have a gap in it. And they need funding for that or help developing it. We'll do that also. But it's it has to be within our plan, with the goal of what we've decided we want to do if we just give for everything and have no focus, no goals, we won't be able to cause change, we will be able to help a lot of people, but probably not for generations. And we want to cause this change for generations. But the giving pledge helped me figure all this out. And I I've sat next to Warren Buffett twice for dinner. And I've had incredible conversations.
You know, he's my philanthropic crush. He is my favorite 90 year old and you're a lot like him. And as you've been talking, I've been thinking I mean, again to the difference the vast difference between a donor and a philanthropist. I love what you're saying here that you've done and I hope that people are taking notes, especially anyone who's thinking about what can I do with my personal philanthropy and I don't even think it has you have to have millions to be able to do this. This is a conversation anybody can have. I mean, Arnold Foundation, you guys are rocking it. I cannot begin to clap more or just cheer you on. Because what you were doing and what you have done to smartly position your philanthropy I think will be completely socio economic changing here in our own state.
Thank you there. One thing I didn't mention I'd like to one of the main goals, besides helping the children so that their parents are incarcerated was to decrease the disparity in incarceration of African Americans. We also incarcerate the most African Americans per capita in the country. In the country, 25% of young men born after 1990, will have been incarcerated at some point in their lives in Oklahoma 50%. Oh, they on this trend, that is a huge driver for us. At first, nobody wanted to listen, I would give talks about it. And people were astonished, but then blow it off. That time has come now where people are not blowing that off, they're paying attention. And I've said for quite a while that a young black kid, if he has a fear of police, it's not irrational. It's a very rational fear. And I'd like to help so that it's not irrational fear. It's not a rational fear for the parents. It's not a rational fear for that kid.
And I just have to think about, I'm picturing these mothers in the angst they must have, and the anxiety they must have. And to know that they have a partner, like you that is willing to force these very hard conversations, because it really reminds me so much of just our number one core value in our company, which is everyone matters. And you have to bring everyone to the table. I want to talk about your philanthropy a little bit. And I am just curious, what's the most favorite donation that you've ever made? It
was my biggest donation. And that's the diversion hub. When I got into criminal justice, I really was just listing for over a year going to meetings. And the judges who say If only we had this, the TAs would say we could have let him out. If we had this, I found out that a lot of people are failing in their probation because of the inability to get the services and ability to pay fines and fees, they pay one place not know that they could still get a warrant for another place anyway, they said it's everything was brought together at one stop shop for people in the justice system that would so help them. And so we spent about a year and a half, having focus groups and asking, What's the need? What do you think we should do? They out of the focus groups, and then a advisory council that we created, had judges, Tas public vendors, but some agency heads, then they created the diversion hub, or the concept for it. One Stop Shop, we would provide case management, justice, navigation, but not duplicate all the services that are available. So we brought the service providers on site, so that a person doesn't have to go to another place to try to get house and another place to get employment, and another place to get their mental health needs. So the organization's providing those services and the ones that were doing a really good job and also play well with others. That's important, because we're all together. So we adopted this model that's really after the homeless alliance here for bringing everyone under one roof, so that we're all working together. And so that's what we did with the diversion hub. We started a pilot about two years ago, and that was in the courthouse. And we opened the doors, bringing all the service providers in and all the administration and then our case managers, Justice navigators in June of 2020. And it we have over 85 people coming through the doors every day. But we help a person can't get housing because they don't have the deposit. We give them the deposit, we pay the deposit. They can't complete their services like batterers intervention program, because they can't afford the money up front. It's a couple $100 We go ahead and pay that for them. And then they go, so we, we try to help in every way we can walk them through the system. We're advocates for them in court, we've had over 1000 clients so far, and we get through.
And $25.30 $5 all of a sudden doesn't become a barrier to your freedom, you know, or advocating or we don't want people having to go donate plasma and passing out in the middle of their hearing. I I'm just so heartened to know that you're taking that on and I absolutely love that gift very, very much. I'm so glad you shined a light on that I hoped you would. We have a lot of nonprofit professionals who tune in and listen to our podcast and I wonder what you would say would be the biggest misstep development professionals make when they're courting major gift donors,
not understanding our parameters, and not reading about them and asking before they ask for a gift, and not helping us get to know them when they ask for a gift in our first encounter, that's rough. Yeah. And it's really hard for me to say no. Super hard,
you want to help everybody?
I do. But if I help everybody, I'll help nobody.
I think that that is great counsel, because development professionals are so great developing and cultivating those relationships with one on one donors. But I feel like there's a, there is a gap. In doing that with a private foundation. You're a human to either individuals that live in your foundation, I want to give a shout out to Lindsey Laird, I can't go throughout this entire interview without saying hi to my friend, Lindsey Laird, who's your program officer for child welfare. Get to know your program officers reach out to these foundations, do your homework, if they have anything on their website, read every part of it, scour the web, read their press releases, read their quotes, so you can understand their heart. And really, it's just about being vulnerable and raw, and not saying what you need, but saying what the problem is and how you think they can partner together as a really good tip. So I want to know who inspires you in this lifetime. philanthropist, maybe it's your child, maybe you have a mentor who inspires you.
I've taken a whole lot of advice from George Kaiser. He's been very kind and very helpful. In fact, he's the one who asked me on to the giving pledge. And he has given me a lot of advice for how to structure it. And he gets to know everything about what he's developing. He develops the goal, and then works backwards, how does he get there. And then as he sees more gaps, and more gaps that he fills them. But he does a lot of science research. He's amazing. And he's right here in Oklahoma.
I have like one more question that I want to ask you before we get into our rapid fire. And I wonder what you would tell little Sudan, if you could go back as a young girl, what advice would you give yourself,
don't be afraid to explore new things. Just don't let fear guide where you go.
I think you've done that in something tells me you may still just be on that journey. And I see this natural curiosity in you and knowing that it comes from a place of empathy. And yeah, and you talk about risk and allowing nonprofits to have risk. And I want to thank you for that. I heard an interview with Melinda Gates recently, and I adore her and I love I love just the ethos that she lives for. And someone asked her what is the thing that people forget about you? And her answer was that I'm a human being, I think I think of that sentence every single day. And our philanthropist are humans, they are humans with hearts. And this is the humanizing part of Sudan. And I think we're gonna have a lot of fun with it. So question number one, tell me what your greatest childhood memory is
riding my horse with my best friend, Mildred, on her horse, and riding up Kevin all mountain. It's actually the highest hill in the world. But we lived in out in the country on the other side of town, and I drive my horse to meet up with her. Then we ride through town seriously through town. And sometimes we pick up other kids. So it would be four or five of us riding our horses through town up capital mountain, and we did it a lot. And it was a blast. It was idyllic. It really was. I cannot recapture that. It was too cool.
Oh, your face, your whole face just changes when you talk about something like that. And I love it and I adore you. What is something that people often get wrong about you?
They think I'm aloof and stuck up. And I'm truly just extremely shy. And I don't wear my glasses a lot of times, so I can't see.
First concert you ever attended
Smith, with my sister, you remember them?
My parent? Well, you know, I'm a child of hippies. So of course,
this morning. Yeah, it was fun.
Tell me what the most burdensome part is of having wealth.
It can it's having to say no. They say what doesn't, it doesn't hurt to ask it hurts me,
really. You just humanized every major gift donor right there with that answer. So thank you for that. What is your favorite charity other than your own
one that I followed for quite a while as the MacArthur Foundation. And the reason is they do a lot of research a lot. And they also focus on racial inequity in criminal justice, and they were doing that well before I was well before anybody else was they were leaders in it. What is your favorite human quality, integrity? If I can trust someone, it doesn't matter if I agree with them or not, but if they have integrity, or good,
how would you like to be remembered?
As a person who cared and didn't just walk by a problem, I, there's this saying, in the corporate world, if you see it, you own it, or that's true. You see it, you own it. If you see a problem, and you can help you own it,
I love that. I love that very much. And that jives with your entire ethos of everything that you've said to us. Today. We ask all of our guests, what's one good thing that you could offer to our community piece of advice, words of wisdom? What would you give?
The best path is not always downhill. Sometimes you have to do the hard thing. You know, how will my dog trend away? All I have to do is like what's the easiest place for them to go normally, it's downhill. So if I just hold on Hill, applying them. That's the easiest. And we do the same thing. And it's not always the right thing. What's the easiest,
Suzanne, you are such a treasure. I am just feel so lucky and blessed to know you and to know that you and your harder in this world. I've enjoyed this conversation so much. And I want to wrap it up by going back to something that you said that I am still trying to reconcile inside me. You want to be someone that sees everyone. And I am here to tell you, Sudan or NA. That whether you on the streets of Indonesia, looking at starving dogs or whether you are in Oklahoma City, seeing the 19 year old child who is aged out of foster care who literally has nowhere to go. And they have a trash sack on their back, wandering through this life looking for an advocate looking for someone to help them. I just want to thank you on behalf of good humans everywhere for being the greatest for taking this incredible privilege that you have pouring your expertise pouring your heart and pouring the love that I feel for your children and your animals and to everybody else's children and animals. You're a gift and I'm so glad to know you. Thanks, Becky.
You'll make me cry now. That Thank you.
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