Hello and welcome to the thoughtful counselor, a podcast dedicated to bringing you innovative and evidence based counseling and mental health content designed to enhance your life. Whether you're a clinician, supervisor, educator, or a person wanting to learn more about the counseling process, we are here to demystify mental health through conversations with a wide range of counseling professional powerhouses. In each episode, you'll learn about current issues in the field, new science, and real life lessons learned from the therapy room. Thank you for joining us on our journey through the wide world of counseling. There's a lot to explore here. So sit back, take a deep breath. And let's get started.
Hi, everyone, welcome to the thoughtful counselor podcast. My name is Daisuke Daniel. And I'm super excited because I'm here with aefi Harvey, and we are talking about psychedelics in their organization. And so I am just grateful to have her here. And we're just going to jump straight in. So can you tell me a little bit about who you are, and kind of what you do in your day to day?
Sure. Thank you for having me. My name is Faye tayo Harvey, I'm the executive director of the people of color psychedelic collective. We are a organization that seeks to educate our communities about psychedelics and ending the war on drugs. And so my day to day varies. Being executive director of a very new small nonprofit, I do it all I do everything from digital communications, admin finances, accounting, speaking roles, I do a lot of public facing speaking events. I also do a lot of facilitating part of what I'm doing now I'm a 2020, Hue source justice fellow. And so I've been working on building a coalition among workers and organizations and leaders in the field. We want to shape the future of psychedelics in terms of how we move forward with decriminalizing legalizing and regulating. So yeah, that's, that's a little bit about me.
Awesome. I'm already like super excited and very impressed of it. So the next question I have for you is, tell me a little bit about POS the PC? And like, why are organizations like this important?
Yes, so the people color psychedelic Collective, we kind of It wasn't my intention to start an organization. It just kind of happened and evolved that way. And I would say our organization is important, because, you know, 10 years ago, I got into drug policy reform work. And that led me to getting into psychedelics specifically. But what I noticed after working in the psychedelic field, I realized that racial trauma wasn't being talked about. I was working for an organization called maps, the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies back in 2015. And I was the only black person there only person of color there. And they were doing research on PTSD, treatment resistant PTSD, using psychotherapy, and MDMA, and race wasn't being talked about or acknowledge. In, in this organization, and it became clear to me that it wasn't a priority for them to consider how race impacts trauma. And after I left, I, you know, started going to events where race was being talked about in the context of psychedelics, and I was still very unsatisfied with how it's being talked about, it felt like, people were not like, there's an elephant in the room. And folks were scared to really say what was real. And so that led to me writing a piece for symposium magazine in 2016 called why the psychedelic community is so white. And I talked about how, you know, a lot of psychedelic spaces aren't welcoming to black people. They don't talk about incarceration or arrests. They don't talk about how the war on drugs is disproportionately impacted black people. So why would we feel welcome in those spaces? And my piece got a lot Out of traction, and I got connected to some other folks who were feeling similarly. And we just started having informal zoom calls where we were talking about these issues, and that evolved into us doing Project X, and, you know, incorporating and get our getting our 501 C three. So, again, it wasn't an intentional thing, but obviously, it was very necessary. And through this work, I've seen how, you know, these spaces are needed spaces where people can come and talk about their experiences. And also learn because a lot of times when we're talking about drugs, especially in the black community, we're speaking to addiction, dysfunction, which is part of the conversation, but it's not all of the conversation. All right. Most people, most adults use drugs in one way or the other, whether it be caffeine, sugar, cocaine, we met them ketamine shrooms. Most of us are drug users, it's just that certain drugs get stigmatized more than others. But it was important for me to create a space where people could come and talk about the real reasons why we're using drugs, drugs are fun, it's fun to alter your state of consciousness. But a lot of us, you know, we self medicate. It's a way of coping. And so that's part of it too. And I would say the last reason our organization is important is because we bring a social justice framework to the psychedelic field. And that's not something we see from other organizations. So I think it's always good to be critical of what's happening, and to also bring that social justice lens to the space.
Thank you so much for that you've covered a lot of information. And I do want to talk a little bit about the mission of the organization, and kind of how we got there. But as you're talking, you mentioned maps. And I was this past summer Max was actually here in Denver, Colorado, where I live for the psychedelic conference. And I had very much notice what you're talking about of it just felt like the space was very international, but also very white, even in the international context. And in these conversations, I have a background in mental health and I trained counselors and I teach psychopharmacology and we talked about over and over again, the power of cultural humility and making sure that we're very aware when we're having conversations with clients about 80 medications, and I'm so excited that you said, like, we're all taking drugs, we just stigmatize different drugs, right? So in my class, my students who are listening are gonna laugh because I talk all the time about over the counter medication. So like Benadryl and Tylenol and all of these things that are terrible for you. And but we're only having a conversation about media stigmatized drugs, or like drugs that are not necessarily FDA approved, which is already very compliment, problematic in a lot of ways. But I'm wondering, just kind of as a one off, have you seen any change in the dynamics, since like, 2015, to now have these other organizations like maps or these other organizations who are doing psychedelics? I know, there's a long list of labs and communities trying to do this work. But your organization is one of the ones that stood out to me, front and center as like, centering communities of color in this conversation.
Yeah, yeah. That's so cool. I was also at that conferencing in Colorado. So we might have crossed paths. I would say, Yeah, I definitely have seen a change in the space, I think, by more people like me. And other folks, you know, who have been creating their own spaces. I think that gave more people permission to organize from a standpoint that we as people of color or we as black people deserve to be centered. You know, when I first entered the space, working for maps in 2015, I noticed that, you know, bringing up race especially for white psychedelic enthusiast, you would get a lot of reactionary responses or being told Like, you're not evolved enough, we're all one human race, you know, that kind of BS. And now, those voices are getting quieter because our society has changed somewhat, since then some of these racial issues have come to the forefront. But also, more and more people are organizing their communities. I've seen a lot of new psychedelic groups pop up, especially ones that are led by people of color, or yet led by and center people of color explicitly. And so I'm grateful to see that that change has been happening.
Yeah, I'm excited to see that as well. Especially as I know, California was newer to the game than Colorado was in terms of psychedelics in this conversation. But I often think of as female decriminalization, like how do we make sure that communities of color are reaping the benefits of this change in policy and change in community and forefront? And we're not necessarily leaving people behind just because it's hard for us to have those conversations. So I want to circle back and really touch on what is the mission of the collective and how does the collective work?
Mm hmm. Yeah, well, our mission is to educate our community, so people can make empowered choices for themselves. And so people can realize the impacts that we're on drugs has had on our communities, and, you know, stop stigmatizing each other and start stigmatizing these inhumane counterproductive walls that we have. And so, you know, we do that through a number of ways. Before the pandemic started, we had a conference in Washington, DC, we call the Empyrion. And it was at the Inn Hotel, and this is back when we had no money. But having that conference made us realize, like, oh, wow, there's a real thirst for what we're trying to do. And so when the pandemic hit, we transitioned over to doing online workshops and panels. And we've, you know, we've had panels on a variety of topics. General healing, has talked about harm reduction, we've talked about cultural appropriation, we've talked about death and dying and grief and psychedelics. And so, you know, we try to keep our events, low costs, affordable, accessible for folks. And, you know, we've we found that, like, there, there aren't many other people who are speaking to these issues, the same way that we're speaking to them. And so, you know, the world is in a weird place right now, where there's COVID, there's all these other illnesses going around, you know, there's multiple genocides happening. And it's so we're trying to attune to that moment as an organization. And I think going into next year, we want to practice more resource giving to our communities. So again, they can empower themselves to take care of themselves and make good decisions. You know, a lot of my motivation for doing this lies in my experiences growing up, and I'm from Charleston, South Carolina. And growing up, I saw a lot of my peers, you know, get into drugs and alcohol. And as a kid, I was, I was super like, goody two shoes, because my dad went to prison, because he sold drugs, and he was deported. And so that had a really big impact on my childhood. And coming into teenage hood and adulthood, I saw a lot of my peers, you know, drinking and driving or overdosing. And ultimately, I want young people to know that, like, yes, you can have fun, you can party, but you can also make wise decisions to keep yourself safe. Right? We we live in a country where like there is the legacy of drug education. And you know, we all know that like telling someone not to do something is not helpful just like with sex, sex abstinence, like telling young people not to have sex doesn't work. Some maybe it does for some, but for most, it doesn't work. People are going to have sex people are going to alter their states of consciousness with with whatever's closest to them, so we might as well equip them with the knowledge to do that, and you know, there's so many The specifics, there's so many, so much unpacking that has to be done around reviews for us that, you know, it's important to have like, yeah, the fact that we sent her people of color. I think there are issues specific to us. You know, related to disproportionate surveillance criminalization that comes up when we talk about using drugs.
Yeah, I'm almost surprised, I think of how well not even well, but how thoughtful and empathetic your organization is, and you are in? Not just like the bottom line, but really, how do we make sure our communities get what they need? But then there's, it feels like there's an underlying education aspect of a teaching aspect of how do I help you get those resources so that you can then continue on to spread those to others rather than, like, I'm, I'm the holder of resources, and then only you can, like, come back to me?
Yeah, yeah, I don't, I don't want to create that type of dynamic. And it's interesting that you mentioned that because I see that dynamic playing out in a lot of psychedelic organizations and companies, you know, where people are doing that direct service work, whether it be like, you know, ketamine, or what we call like, quote, unquote, underground illegal services, illegal, you know, this, these substances are still illegal, some people get offended at the term underground. But ultimately, I don't want to create a dynamic of dependence where people feel like they're dependent on me or my organization, to know things I want to teach people how to think critically. And to protect themselves. That's, to me, it's like, I want to create less work for myself. So by empowering folks, they can go empower someone else and, and it can be exponential. You know, that's, that, to me is how change happens not by me. Gatekeeping knowledge.
Yeah, absolutely. And you shared a little bit about Dare and to very much date myself, I learned about deer when I was in elementary school. And something you said about seeing your friends and family members and other folks still partake in, like illegal drug use, and seeing them drink and have fun, but then realizing that that fun often had adverse side effects or terrible outcomes. Same for me as well. And I just thought it was incredibly powerful to really think about, like, not just having an abstinent approach, which we know over the decades has not worked at all like, even though I like had it there t shirt, like my friends are still doing all kinds of stuff. And they are still attending those events like I was. And I often think if we changed our Asness approach to harm reduction into safety, how much further along we would be in this conversation like it wouldn't just be in the last few years that Colorado is like now okay, with psychedelics are certain states are now okay with having these conversations with as if these things were not happening well, before the policies caught up to decriminalize them.
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think about that to how we're so behind on research because this prohibition era that we've been in, when it comes to drugs, and it's that's why I think it's so important to study history, because when you look at like the late 1800s, early 1900s, a lot of these substances were were very commonplace in households, you know, cannabis, cocaine, heroin, people were using them for different reasons. And it's interesting now, because a lot of people don't know that. Right? We we've been kind of misguided and misinformed about substances. And something that I I say that I've heard a lot of my work is that the policies and laws are more dangerous than the drugs themselves. And that resonates with me because you know, Even if someone's taking a substance that has risk associated with it, how does incarcerating them or arresting them? Keep them safe from that apparent risks? You know, I've heard so many stories of people being sentenced to 1020 years for a joint for less than a gram of crack. And how does that protect them? How to say keep them safe? It doesn't. And so I think we have to, I think more and more Americans are waking up to that, like incarceration is not the answer for this issue.
Yeah, and then you mentioned, right, the just genocides happening all over the world. And I've been reading a lot about abolitionists recently, but mostly because of all the things happening. And I'm also very much realizing that as well like to really have a different approach on psychedelics, and overall psychopharmacology, you also have to have a really like decolonization of the law system, like the criminal justice system, and then how we're looking at communities, how communities get this label, and then that criminal justice system just continues to like feed itself within that community. And then also, kind of like, as we're looking at that we can't just do community resource. We also have to fix education and like our history and making sure people know, what's been happening over time. And I'm just very appreciative that you have such a global holistic view of tackling this issue for multiple spaces. But I'm also very aware of how exhausting that must be.
Yeah, yeah, it's an like, honestly, you know, being that I work in a nonprofit, and like, I've worked for few nonprofits. People talk about the nonprofit industrial complex a lot, and how that has like shifted a lot of activist space spaces, and suddenly, I always say is that I want to work myself out of a job, you know, I don't want to be doing this work. 20 years down the line, I want the drug war to be over yesterday. You know, like, it's, it is exhausting. Doing this word, because it can really be simple. You know, like, just thinking about, I think that's what just drives me. In some way. It's easy to get like, yeah, it's easy to get exhausted with. You know, how many angles we have to like, hit the drug war, and in order to weaken its impacts. And it's frustrating to know that, like, if lawmakers want it to end the drug war, they could they just choose not to. And part of that is because drug users lives aren't important. They're seen as disposable, even though our overdose rates are, are increasing in the US our overdose deaths are increasing in the US. We haven't really seen much of a response from politicians to address that. The response and the responsibility has been mostly held by other drug users. And there's been, you know, there's a whole history there connecting the harm reduction movement to the HIV AIDS crisis, and how people fought to keep themselves alive, but also also their community alive. So it's frustrating because we have all these orgs especially, you know, drug policy, harm reduction, who are trying to save people's lives, when it really should be the government doing all this stuff. So it is easy to get frustrated and bogged down. But I have to remind myself of people like my dad, people, like who came to this country trying to make a better life for themselves and, you know, got in the wrong thing at the wrong time and you know, was deported because of it. I know that there's so many people still behind bars. Like my dad, who were just trying to make a living who are maybe just trying to smoke a joint. So I have to remind myself that like you We This isn't over until everybody is free.
Yes, I'm very much like all of the quotes that are come out of this. I'm like here for whatever set. So what percentage of bipoc folks are interested in psychedelics? Today?
That's a great question. I don't know the exact percentage, I don't. But that points to how there is more research, how we need to do more research on that. I think part of the issue with psychedelics is that a lot of the research being done is limited in a lot of ways. And it's not centered, there's very little research at center on people of color. So that is something I'm interested in is like, doing more community based research, if I were to guesstimate, I would say, you know, people of color between the ages of like 18 and 64, I would say 30%. And maybe a little too generous with that. But I think I think times are changing, and people are realizing that a lot of these substances come from our culture's to begin with. So it's really about returning back to what was already ours.
Yeah, and I know, right, like, as someone in academia and research, I also don't know that number. And what I'm seeing is, I'm also hopeful that it's 30%. Because every semester or every time that I've had the opportunity to teach psychopharmacology, I have more and more students excited about this topic, and I'm doing this work. And so I do agree with you that it's a movement that's coming. And definitely led by younger generations, which I'm always inspired by. So I think most of my questions after that kind of lead into that and so something else I had was, are there certain psychedelics that are more popular than others and bipoc communities?
Yeah, I would say they're part of what popular with popularity. What creates popularity is like availableness and readiness, right? So I would say shrooms, psilocybin mushrooms are probably the most popular because they're easy to grow. And they're, you know, they're easier to get even if you can't grow them. Whereas things like LSD, MDMA, you need to have a strong knowledge of chemistry to be able to manufacture those types of substances. So I would say, you know, mushrooms they come from or they were popularized because of Maria Sabina, who is a could andera from wildlife Jimenez in Wahaca. A guy Gordon was son, a white guy from the US, he visited her and got a Velocita, which is like a mushroom ceremony is so he kind of took that experience and like told everybody in their mama about it in the US, and that led to mushrooms being popularized here. And so, I would say yeah, mushrooms are pretty popular because nowadays, especially with cannabis being legalized in 25 states now, we're seeing kind of like this gray area in the market. Where, okay, yeah, it's not it's not legal, but nobody's checking for it. Like, I'm here in New York and I see what we call like unofficial dispensaries, dispensaries that aren't license and they're selling mushrooms, mushroom chocolate bars and things like that. So I think mushrooms are like the most easily accessible, easy to grow. Behind that I would probably say LSD LSCs, popular in pop culture, or MDMA. MDMA was very popular when I was in college among a lot of people of color. I WASPA. That's, that's, I wouldn't. I would say that that's more of a psychedelic tourism thing. You don't you don't have to leave the US to do Ayahuasca but a lot of people choose to. So I would say that's probably like the least popular Um, but I think you know, what we need to think through as we start to, you know, change these laws, increase access, make it easier for people to get, you know, their hands on these substances, we need to think about how do we mitigate blowback? How do we mitigate risks? How do we get the education out there? Without, you know, there being so much harm caused beforehand?
Yeah, absolutely. And so in just terrible for as a professor, I just realized that we didn't talk at all about what these words mean. More like what these things are as like, everyone must find out. So that's sorry, all that's 100% on me. So let's just pause, go bad. Um, so tell us just your very basic, sixth sixth grade version of these things. Not academic. Let's start with shrooms. What are they? What should we know about them?
So shrooms is short for mushrooms, psilocybin mushrooms. People call them magic mushrooms. But basically, you know, there's all types of mushrooms. When you go outside, you see little mushrooms growing. There's so many different varieties of mushroom, but with psilocybin mushrooms, they are hallucinate hallucinogenic. And you typically eat them dry. Some people eat them fresh, but you typically eat them dried, and there's different varieties of psilocybin mushrooms. But basically, after ingesting them, you typically start to feel that altered state and doses dosage varies like my first time taking mushrooms, I took three and a half grams, which is on like, you know, for some people that will be on the heavier side. Um, I know some people who are like, Oh, I take 30 grams. So every was, I wouldn't recommend that I wouldn't recommend taking three and a half your first time because, you know, if you if you can make it easier for yourself, make it easier on yourself. But with that, with the dose that I took my first time it starts it starts to kick in. And because mushrooms are fungus, our bodies don't process and process them well. So it's normal to feel nausea, maybe some maybe some diarrhea even it just you know, it's hard for your body to digest. So people typically feel that pretty early on after ingesting. And then if you're like me, you start to get some hallucinations 2030 minutes in. And it can be little things like, oh, that poster is like kind of moving or like glowing, you know. But typically, when you're at that dosage, the experience lasts about six to eight hours. And it can be internal and external, like your internally feeling different, like your thoughts, your memories are moving in a different way. And then externally, the world around you looks different. So you're, you know, like I said, there's things moving like I was outside on a nature trail. So I saw the trees breathing. And that was like, whoa. So that's psilocybin mushrooms. A lot of people take them for spiritual reasons, because like a lot of the experience is internal. You're like processing a lot of emotions, memories, experiences with LSD. LSD stands for Lysergic acid, I could be missing. But that is it's a bit different than mushrooms is synthetic. And so typically, you see people have tabs, which is like a little piece of paper with the LSD like blot it on that. There's also droppers that people take like with the liquid. So acid is in some ways is similar to mushrooms in terms of the experience like there's that internal and external experience. In my experience. I get more of a external like the is LSD is more heavy on the external side. So seeing I feel more social when I take acid like I can be around people a lot and I'm an introvert typically, but I also feel really happy with LSD like I always feel like with mushrooms I tend I can feel feel happy, but I can also feel sad at the same time. Then there's, I think I mentioned I lost her I lost is also considered a psychedelic, it comes from a vine. It's typically used by indigenous groups in South America. There's different groups Shipibo can EBO through, you know, you see Ecuador, Peru, Brazil, and I've never done Ayahuasca so I can't really speak to that experience of it. But typically, it's brewed with other plants, you drink it. I know, people tend to vomit on ayahuasca and also have that internal experience and external of like, just experiencing a lot or like seeing a lot of things, especially in the on the internal side, with Ayahuasca. So there's this notion in the psychedelic space, that there are classic psychedelics, and I guess more non classic, like psychedelics that people kind of sort of consider psychedelics, but some, you know, the psychedelic snobs don't consider them psychedelic. So, so like mushrooms, acid, maybe ayahuasca and there's a few others that would be considered like the traditional the classical, psychedelics, MDMA, ketamine, MDMA is I can't think of the acronym. And ketamine are both synthetic. And a lot of people argue that they're not psychedelics, because they don't induce the, I guess, that typical psychedelic experience of the like the external hallucinations and the internal, like processing and imagining. And I'll say that, like, I don't have much personal experience with MDMA and ketamine, but I am of the thought that anything can be psychedelic, like a drug or substance like, I, I got dental surgery a few years ago. And that was like my first time going under, like getting an IV. And I had some experiences in that doctor in that dentist's chair, but I couldn't explain. So I tend to be like, you know, we can have psychedelic experiences, you can channel that experience through a number of mediums. And I think we also have to remember that the term psychedelic is a socially construct isn't invented term, like it was coined in 1957. So, you know, to me, it's like, the experiences that we have with substances sometimes don't fit into that fully, and that's okay. You know. So I think that, you know, there, there will be more discussions on this, because when it comes to legislation, changing laws in the US, we tend to be very overly cautious. And in the psychedelic field, I, I see a lot of researchers and advocates trying to prove the validity of a substance by saying that it's safe, it's safer than those substances over there. You know, like, oh, well, mushrooms are safer than math. So, you know, and to me, that's not a good argument, because safety isn't only about toxicity, like, right, how your body responds. It's also about like, situational awareness. So yeah, I can take shrooms and my body might be fine. But if I'm not in a good place mentally or from around people who aren't good people, that can still put me in an unsafe situation. So So yeah, that's, that's like a, again, a big motivator for me to do this work is wanting to keep people safe.
Yeah, I really enjoyed what you said about kind of the safety aspect because we often talked about our mental health in this conversation has come up often around psychedelics of is it safe, like how can we protect people? Like how do we do like psychedelic assisted therapy, those kinds of things. But I, I feel similar to you, and that it's surprising to me that we're not having the same conversations about like Zoloft or like Wellbutrin or these other medications that are treating like anxiety and depression, right or even in like when we talked about personality disorders, we don't actually treat the personality disorder we treat the symptoms, right. And so, as we're thinking about and having this conversation of making it possible for people to lower their mental health experiences and make it a better like life experience for them, like how do we make sure that people are able to live their best lives. And often that is with some type of medication. I hear a lot of hypocrisy and the psychedelic roam around like, Oh, these things are not as safe or not as vetted as these other things. But then we know, just by labels of medications, that it really depends on the person like you could have a very terrible reaction does a lot. And the only way for me to know that is for you to try that drug. And then like report back and then try something else, and report back, right? There's no, like, even in best practices, every single person has a different individual experience. And when you're talking about that, like internal external experience, I really think about just the science behind it, like our bodies are different, how we digest things are different, how things are going to experience are so different. But I find that argument it's just a lot harsher and more critical on like psychedelics and marijuana than they are on the over the counter conversation.
Mm hmm. So yeah, yeah. Like you're saying that people tend to be less understanding. If someone says like, oh, this shrooms didn't work for me. Or, yeah, yeah, no,
yeah. And I can give you like, just a very clear example. So in my class, we cover melatonin and like Tylenol, and most people don't know that, like, consistent use of Tylenol can actually cause dementia, like you can start to lose your, like your everyday short term memories on consistent use of Tylenol. And so to me that they that conversation is not any different than having a conversation about truth. It's like,
all right, all right. All right. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that people especially let me say this as someone who smokes weed myself. cannabis users get real defensive when you talk about the risk associated with cannabis use. I remember when I worked for the Drug Policy Alliance years ago, one of my colleagues like, had me this pamphlet kind of show it was like a harm reduction pamphlet saying like, Okay, this is the risk associated with cocaine. If you're going to use cocaine, make sure you drink water, get a fentanyl test strip a little a lot. But when and, you know, we shared all these on social media, but when it came to the cannabis one being like, Okay, if you smoke too much, we you can have a panic attack. Or if you have heart problems that can make heart problems worse, or make sure you're hydrated, you know, people like seldom like, Oh no, there aren't any risks, like just straight up denial of any risks associated with cannabis. And I say this as someone who's been smoking weed since I was 18. I've had bad experiences with cannabis. I've had bad experiences where I dissociate, and I don't even know where I am or who I am. I mean, that hasn't happened in a long time. But when I was younger, that is something that happened. So yeah, there's also this notion in the psychedelic field that like psychedelics are for everyone, if we give everyone psychedelic somewhere, it will be a better place. And people have to understand that, like you said, All every substance will not work or will not have their same reaction for everyone. A lot of it depends on the person's like medical history, their body, and then also just like, who they're around, and what type of mental state they're in, and physical state they're in. Um, I think in some ways people like, give a little bit too much credit to, to psychedelics, or overstate their abilities. And that's what I'm interested in, like unpacking more is like, trying to move us away from this individualize approach to healing and wellness. Because yeah, psychedelics can be a tool for healing and wellness. But we can only get so far if our society still has these oppressive systems where you can barely have a family have stable housing, you know, financial stability, all that stuff is eroding away in this country. So, you know, our possibilities for wellness and healing feel really limited right now, if we're not also working to change The systems that are keeping us depressed, sad and lonely. And you know, and I always, you know, something I've been saying it's gonna be like my go to phrase, but I'm like, really are integrating these substances into a burning house. And that's like I saw that from MLK. He was talking about integration, I'm talking about taking these substances that have been used for 1000s of years, and integrating them into a system that is built on oppression. And we have to be honest, and recognize that by integrating them into the system, it's like the substances are going to take on all the shortcuts, shortcomings of our system.
Yeah, absolutely. There's a book that just recently came out called decolonizing. Therapy. And in that book, and kind of around this black mental health, or black practitioners who are leading this new movement, the conversation over and over again, is that we cannot heal our trauma, like we do not heal our historical trauma. Without community like healing only happens in community. And I just kept thinking about that over and over again, as you're talking about, like, how we're trying to solve these problems is too much from an individual perspective. And we keep trying to eliminate the community without realizing that healing actually, is the community. And then these extras are opportunities for people to have a boost or get extra help. Like they can't, like doing psychedelics, without community is not necessarily causing the healing. We really need to like, bring people back into community. Mm
hmm. Yeah, yeah. And I think a lot of people are struggling with that, right. Like, with, we've gone through some collective trauma in the past couple of years, right with COVID. And that shifted a lot of our communities. Like for me, when COVID started in 2020, I was living alone. And I was I was super lonely. I had never felt loneliness like that before my life where I know, I'm an introvert who's, who's low key. I like before COVID Be like, I hate people. I don't care. My weekends are for me. I don't want to see nobody, I'm not gonna ask you to do nothing, you know. And when COVID happened, I'm like, Holy shit, like, I need human contact to survive, or I will literally go crazy. Like being in my apartment, that isolated and not actually talking to another human. It showed me like, whoa, like, this is, you know, super necessary. I wouldn't notice like when I would leave the house and like, just make convo with the guy at the bodega that will just brighten up my day, you know, making conversation with the FedEx guy, I'd be like, Oh, my God, I feel so much better now. You know? So it's like, we yeah, we need each other. And I think a lot of us are struggling with this, because we don't know how to build community. A lot of us don't feel safe and community, even if it is a healthy community, because we've been so traumatized. And so I, you know, I hope that we start to see more people kind of take advantage of the moment we're in. It's a difficult moment we're in. But I think that's when some of the the most creative ideas come to surface. And so I hope that, you know, we're like, more and more people are able to see how we can take back our communities. Because I think part of the issue is that like we've X, we've outsourced a lot of our power, especially when it comes to dealing with conflict and interpersonal violence, that kind of thing. Mental health issues, like we outsource that to police. That's the only intervention we have in this country. For people dealing with mental crisis, mental health crisis is cops in prisons. So I hope that you know, I'm already seeing people develop alternatives to that. And I just hope that these ideas can spread, especially with the internet and social media, like we have to take advantage of that and like really create ideas that can be apply in different places. And I think once we start doing that more, we can start building power
Yeah, absolutely. I'm just feeling hopeful and inspired. So I'm excited. I'm so excited. Just like, yes. Preach it. Tell us. Tell us the gospel, all of it. Okay, so how are you working to lower the amount of stigma around psychedelics in black communities? Hmm,
yeah. Yeah, I think sharing my story, to me is really important. And it I, I started sharing my story about my dad being in prison, when I was about 18, a freshman in college. And I remember the first time I spoke about it in a group of like, students of color. And afterwards, like two women came up to me and like, Yo, like, my mom went to prison, or my dad was in and out of jail. Like, I was too ashamed to say that, that really taught me like, oh, like, I'm not alone in this, you know, because as a kid.
As a kid I grew up with a lot of stigma.
Excuse me. I grew up with a lot of stigma, and a lot of shame around my dad's incarceration.
I didn't know how to talk about it. And sometimes I would lie, make things up. But I, as I got older, and gotten into this work,
I realized that sharing my story was healing for me. And it was also healing for other people. And so many of us are silenced by shame and stigma. And so, if I can continue to share my story, and reach people, you know, even if they don't agree with what I'm saying, or don't resonate, maybe somewhere down the line, they will. But I think it's important for me to share my story, because it is just an example of how the drug war can destroy a family. Yeah, and if I can help one person feel less lonely in their struggle, then, you know, my work is done.
Yeah, I'm just so honored and touched by your vulnerability and just your willingness to share your story with so many people. And often, I think, great, we've talked so much about all of the hurt and pain and craziness that we've experienced in just the last three years, and just how incredibly hard it has been in the loneliness. And in critical race theory, we talk a lot about counter story, counter narratives and how critical it is to tell our stories and share these experiences. So people know that they're not alone. But also people know that the dominant narrative is not actually true to all of us, right. And so I just think about that, so much like hearing this day and your story and sharing this moment with you is just one more thing in my life, that's gonna forever change me. And so I'm just so grateful that you're out here doing this work, but you're also out here sharing your story. And the bravery it takes to share it anyway. Even though people are going to question or that fear is going to come with it, right? So maybe there's, there's no better way to lower the stigma with without the vulnerability and without this one on one human connection and human experience of how do we become better together? And often that is teasing out our history in a way that reminds us of our humanity, but then carries each other with us going forward. All
right, all right. Yeah. Yeah, I really liked what you said about the dog. I'm in a narrative. And in my I got introduced to that term as a, you know, undergrad history major, and learning about, you know, the Revolutionary War and how, like a lot of things we were taught in history were actually false or didn't tell the whole story. So I think it's so important for us as marginalized people to take control of that narrative. And instead of saying, like, you know, for me, it will be very easy to be ashamed of my dad, and to hate him for the choices he made. But I, like when I first started writing about it, I noticed that, yeah, people were very mean and nasty. You know, it's easy to internalize that. But for me, this, this work that I'm doing is about healing myself, too. And also helping other people find their own healing path.
Yeah, I've been reading a lot. But recently, I've been reading about heart work, and the power of how our own artwork also heals others. And I've just like very much feeling that moment with you right now of we're very work, like we work in very different spaces. But I'm always inspired, that that work ultimately comes together and helps communities from both angles, like we talked about earlier of how we don't have to compete, we can stay in our own areas and still make a huge impacts. Because people see us in different spaces and realize that they can be vulnerable and be themselves and show up authentically and actually do the work that helps improve their lives.
Yeah, yeah. And I just, I would just say, I'm grateful for, you know, just the invitation to share my story. Yeah, it's, it's, I do a lot of podcast interviews, and I really appreciate your questions and just your perspective. And just this moment, you know, allowed me to be a little vulnerable here. Because it's not, it's not always easy to talk about these things. And, you know, it's easy, like I worked in like, around a lot of policy stuff. And it's easy to feel the Attach from the pain and the trauma that the drug war inflicts on us. And it's hard to write. So it's, it's hard to balance all those things. And that kind of goes to your question about like, Is it frustrating doing this work? It can be and it's also very painful. You know, there's so many reminders of like, how we're inflicting unnecessary suffering onto people. Yeah, absolutely.
For people who are listening today, and they want to get involved with the collective where do they start?
So I would say visit visiting our website, www dot POC pc.or. If you scroll all the way down to the bottom of our website, you'll see our newsletter form, add your email, and we'll Excuse me. We'll send you all of our updates and happenings. Sorry,
no, we just have like a hobo way that I like back to business. I know we're just like, I've been trying so hard not to be it back to business person, especially lately, but I'm like, I know you have a lot going on. And I don't want to keep you all day. So.
Yes, it's okay. I mean, I'm enjoying this. I'm enjoying it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay,
good. So the last question I asked everyone, and I didn't give it to you, because I want it to be an authentic response. But for students listening about our conversation about psychedelics, about the war on drugs, we just recovered so much stuff that I think we need, like at least two more podcasts, but we'll work on that later. Like, we're like, What's one thing students could do right now?
Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I would, for students, I always recommend them checking out Students for Sensible Drug Policy. There are a chapter based organization for college students that, you know, they seek to improve drug policies on the college campus, but also, you know, on a state federal level as well. I founded or co founded a After when I was in
Okay, okay. Okay, so yeah, I always recommend folks check out Students for Sensible Drug Policy, their organization geared towards students, they have chapters all over the country at different college campuses. And part of their mission is to improve drug policies on college campuses, but also the state and federal level. And you can start your own chapter, they make it really easy for you, I started my own chapter with ash co founder, my own chapter at Smith, when I was a college student, so that's a great place for students to start, I would also recommend organizations like Drug Policy Alliance, and dance safe dance Safe is a harm reduction nightlife organizations. So for students who are into the partying scene, know that there are resources to you know, keep you safe and keep you having fun.
Awesome. Thank you. So last question I have for you is, how can we connect with you in the future or any events we should look out? For?
Sure, yeah. So no events for 2023. But 2024, I'll be a part of the Fordham Law Review symposium drug law for the 21st century. It's happening February, February 16 2024. Here in New York City, I'm going to share the link with you. But if folks want to connect with me there, there will also be a zoom broadcast. So if you're not in New York, you can also participate from afar. So February 16 2020, for Fordham Law Review, drug law and drug law for the 21st century. Awesome.
So I mean, that was it. I feel like it was everything you just totally made my week. And I'm so excited to meet you. But one quote that is sticks with me is that you said often policies and laws are more dangerous than the drugs themselves. And I feel like that's just gonna stick with me when I whenever I teach psychopharmacology, or even have these policy questions, or conversations around psychedelics with any any kind of psycho firm of just really, like, is the work we're doing helpful or just reinforcing systems that are already in credibly harmful?
Mm hmm. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That I feel like I want to interview about psychopharmacology too. Like, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know much. I was I don't know much about but obviously, yeah, I there's, there's a lot of questions I have. Yeah. And I think that hearing from you, like your experience, and like, I think it's giving me some good questions to think about for like psychedelics. Because, you know, some ways a lot of companies, there's like this argument in the psychedelic field, like, Oh, should we go the medical trajectory clinical? Or should we be more recreational more open, more open and community base? And a lot of people there's a lot of money being funneled more into the clinical medical side. Yeah, and, and I feel like people were trying to turn mushrooms into like, the new Prozac there was, I don't know if you saw that cover. I think it was like Time Magazine. But that yeah, it's you've definitely given me some things to think about, too. So. Yeah.
So that will be our next podcast. We just have a whole conversation about. Yeah, go farm, and like psychedelics. And how do we actually treat mental health? Because we're not doing a great job like? Yeah, I would like to think it's a little better, but it's not good. For sure. Yeah. So thank you so very much. Again, this is a thoughtful counselor Podcast. I'm super, super excited to have EJ Harvey with us today. It looks like we may have one of the features. So I'm just going to put it out in the universe that hopefully that will happen. Please check out the show notes. I will have links to all the amazing resources that she gave us as long as well as her socials, the website and other ways to get involved with the collective. Whenever you're listening to this, I hope you're having a wonderful day, night or evening out I'm just super grateful to have you here sharing this space with us. We will zoom alright
thanks again for tuning into the thoughtful counselor today. We hope you enjoy the show. This podcast is made possible through our partnership with concept, Palo Alto University's Division of Continuing and Professional Studies. Learn more about the thoughtful counselor and some of the other amazing continuing education offerings provided by concept. Palo Alto you.edu forward slash concept. As always, if you are a fan of the show, we would love to hear your feedback and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you subscribe
