Hello radical massage therapist and welcome to another episode of the radical massage therapist podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. My name is Krista. I am a registered massage therapist in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada and I'm also a clinic owner. I am not the radical massage therapist but you are for tuning in for wanting to learn more about how you can get the most benefits from your massage career and the freedom flexibility, financial success and opportunities that come from having this incredible career. Today our guest is Natalia Schwartz, she goes by Natalie Ornette and she is a registered massage therapist and and today our radical massage therapist guest is Natalie Schwartz or Natalia shorts or NAT Schwartz she goes by all of them. She is a registered massage therapist and certified lymphedema therapist based in Toronto, Ontario. Having graduated from Sutherland Chan School of Massage therapy she has accumulated over two years of experience in the field of massage therapy in June 2023 net Baddeley in June 2023. Natalie completed specialised training and Vodder manual lymphatic drainage including complete decongestive therapy for lymphedema. Additionally, additionally, she holds the position of authorizer for the assistive devices programme in Ontario facilitating 75% coverage for compression garments essential for lymphedema management. With a commitment to expanding her expertise Natalie is scheduled to undertake lymphatic taping training to further support individuals dealing with lymphatic system issues. Her repertoire extends beyond lymphatic therapy, encompassing proficiency and cupping therapy time massage. Her repertoire extends beyond lymphatic therapy, encompassing proficiency in cupping therapy, and Thai massage. Natalie exhibits a particular passion for assisting oncology cancer patients at all stages of their treatment and recovery journey. she dedicates herself to educating patients on lymphedema prevention, post surgery and treatment as well as addressing dysfunctions and disabilities stemming from cancer treatment. Beyond oncology care. Natalie is keenly interested in providing post surgical care promoting trans and non binary health and offering support to individuals managing physical symptoms resulting from mental health challenges within the scope of her practice as an RMP. She focuses on treating soft tissue concerns and working to integrate with and calm the nervous system. A firm believer in patient education Natalie enjoys sharing her knowledge on topics such as understanding neuromuscular connections, the nervous system, chronic pain management and dysfunction prevention to enhance overall well being and functionality. Outside of her professional endeavours. Natalie leaves an active lifestyle she engages in regular gym training and has explored various fitness disciplines including CrossFit and powerlifting, having competed in powerlifting competitions. Her love of the outdoors is evident through her pursuits such as cycling stand up paddleboarding, walking, hiking, and kayaking. Natalie's background in fitness has equipped her with a deeper understanding of training methods, while her own experiences with injuries have enriched, while her own experiences with injuries have enriched her understanding of rehabilitation and recovery, which she endeavours to impart to her patients. Natalie strives to foster an inclusive judgement free practice environment that embraces individuals of all backgrounds and stages of their wellness journeys. I hope you enjoyed this episode with Natalie Schwartz.
Natalie, thanks so much for joining me on the radical massage therapist podcast.
Thanks for having me. Thanks for them
by how I found out about you and sort of message due there on Instagram was you had posted about some compression garments, and I know you're on a journey of lymphedema, lymphatic massage. You're only two years out in practice. This is really exciting. I'm 18 years I love to talk to new massage therapists see what's going on so far for you. What is the best part about being a massage therapist?
I think I really like the flexibility. It's it's been probably the most flexible job I've ever had in terms of you know, setting your schedule and managing my hours. And being a contractor is awesome. I know not everybody likes it, but But it's great. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, the flexibility is really, really great. And you had mentioned before we started recording that this is your second career, which I really love because that adds to that flexibility. Did you go to school while still holding your first job or did you completely focus on massage school?
Yeah, I completely focused on massage school because I had I heard the stories of how intensive the programme is. And I did the two year I didn't go to the three year college. So I knew it would be a lot. And having done a lot of post secondary education, I knew that I needed to kind of focus on it. Yeah,
absolutely. So when you were going to school, that kind of no tail end of pandemic, were you in school for the pandemic?
Yes, yes, I experienced at all. Okay, can
you share a little bit about about what that was, was like,
it was interesting. There was, it was an interesting challenge. So basically, what happened was, I started school in September 2019. And I guess, end of August 2019. And then, so we had a few months in school, just started student clinics. And then in March 2020, everything shut down. And I I remember the last clinic, you know, I had one of my patients happened to be an education teacher, I believe. And she was so stressed out, and she was talking about how they just said schools were shutting down. So yeah, it was it was very interesting, because we were all already so stressed out from the exams and everything. But it was it was interesting, because, you know, this is a very hands on profession. The programme is very hands on. It's a huge component of it. So we were online for a couple of months, then. Thankfully, we, my cohort had a summer break. And so I kind of I was lucky that we were that guard. I know not everybody was so lucky. But yeah, we did a lot of stuff just online. We did basically all the theory courses. So it became a mix of, you know, turn three, turn four. So a lot more advanced theory stuff. And and then we came back to clinics when we could and it was, it was it was a challenge, you know, because we didn't know what to do with the precautions. And yeah, that was interesting. Yeah. Yeah.
And then what did your registration process look like? So I know there was a bit of a delay there as well.
There was yes, I again, I think I got lucky that I was at the tail end of it. But I think it took me probably a couple of months to get registered, you know, because, again, everything was delayed. The screenings, the cmto Wasn't even open. Their offices weren't open. So yeah, everything was very slow. Yeah,
yeah. And then coming out the Do you have any concerns? That because you didn't have as much like in class or maybe hands on time? Were there any concerns about about going through with the registration,
not so much the registration? I think that was fine. And the exams went fine for me as well. You know, I think we were really well prepared. I think more so I was a little sad that we missed out on a lot of specialty clinics, that didn't happen because it was the pandemic. So hospital settings were completely off limits for us. So my biggest concern was that perhaps I didn't get as much exposure to different populations that I could have had otherwise,
right. Yeah. When we were in school, that would have been like, term like, what are they called? Like our outreach programming? So yeah, going into the hospitals or retirement residences, sports events, just trying to get your hands on as many different types of bodies in different environments, different personalities? Yeah, it was, it would definitely be challenging if you didn't get that experience. And then you mentioned you didn't get to do the specialties, you know, that that you wanted. One of the specialties for us was lymphatics. I mean, it is a, it is part of the training. But we did get a little bit of an extension on it as well. And then you decided that this is and you're still quite early in your career, but you've decided that this is really something you're you want to pursue, and you've gone right into the deep end and therefore you're training what interested you in lymphatic massage and then Lymphedema Therapy.
Hmm, yeah. So first, I became interested in that during school. I did, we did have a couple of specialty clinics and one of them was breast health clinic. So that was a clinic that we could work with people, not just post cancer, but a lot of them were opposed. Cancer mastectomy is cancer treatment that had concerns related to breast health or perhaps recovery from surgery. The patient I worked with, had severe scoliosis and had a crush injury to the chest. So my instructor actually was a boarder certified Lymphedema certified therapist and so through her I kind of really got more interested in that, because I saw how people could benefit from it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And in terms of kind of my personal history, so my mom actually had breast cancer and Hadley had developed lymphedema while I was in school. Okay, so it was, it was a good opportunity for me to see how how much benefit there is. Because if I didn't know about it from school, I wouldn't have connected her with a certified therapist, and I wouldn't have seen the difference that I've made.
Yeah, so you really saw the benefit of of seeing a live certified therapist in that particular skill set. That's amazing. That's excellent. We have a similar like, it's a similar story. I mean, I really, I really engaged with that technique in school. I don't know about your class, but a lot of people didn't like it or they thought it was boring. it slow. Light, you know, they're like, so boring. But I drank the Kool Aid, and everybody needs lymphatic massage, like, especially for the breast health. And, and I did my like, co op with the rehab centre, specifically for women recovering from breast cancer. And I the voicemail that I left, you know, when I was in school, I was like, I would really like to just shadow I really interested in I know, I'm this sounds weird, but I'm interested in breast massage. I hope you understand that it's on a professional level. And it all worked out just fine. But yeah, it was it was really great. So yeah, just this, it's just such a niche, and not many, not many therapists pursue it. So I feel like it's even more special. When the there's the few of us that do so. So. So I guess because you had an instructor who was bought or certified? Is that what made you decide to go with a border training?
It was part of it? Yeah, for sure. Whenever I was kind of exposed to anybody that worked with lymphatic massage, Lymphedema Therapy, it always seemed to be water. I don't know why that is. I mean, there are other training methods. Water is pretty common. I mean, they've been they've been enough, at least in North America for about 50 years now, I think. And much longer than that in Europe. So they really have a long history of training therapists in North America. So maybe that's why but yeah, it just seemed like they they were really well structured. You know, it didn't seem gimmicky. It didn't seem, you know, that they were they weren't really trying to sell themselves. Like it was very simple. Like, this is the gold standard for lymphedema training. And you can take it if you want, and this can be beneficial. Yeah, yeah. I really liked it. It was
awesome. Did you have to travel forward? Or did they actually come to Toronto?
They did come to Toronto. Yes. Yeah. I think the benefit of being in a major city is that they usually hold courses here a few times a year. So yeah, yeah,
that's excellent. And was it broken down into like, different different levels? And you had to return to each level? Or did they give you everything in one, one go?
It was broken down. Yeah. So they have three levels, and then extra courses that you can take on top of that. Level one basically teaches you sequences for you know, everybody area body parts. And it's kind of Yeah, basic sequences, working with non lymphedema patients, you know, generally healthy people, but it gives you a good base. If you take level one and you're not going to do lymphedema, it's usually pretty comprehensive. You know, you can work with people post injuries, even sample surgery, depending on the surgery. And then level two is expanding on it. So it really teaches you more on how to work with surgeries and more kind of difficult cases. And then level three is the lymphedema training. That's the longest one. Yeah.
Yeah. And that one includes the wrapping and like a bit of compression education, as well. Yeah. Amazing. I'm gonna probably jump all over the place a little bit, but but I did, you know, discover you, you know, probably like just through that post that you put about compression therapy. And can you explain a little bit about how you introduce it to or recommend to your clients, of course, within our scope of practice, but also one of the comments and I never, I never took, I never took it to heart. But when we were in massage school, when we learned about lymphatics and compression therapy, we kind of all looked at each other and we were like, We need to be wearing like compression stockings when we work 18 years in practice, and I wish I had worn compressions Rocky's from like, day one, and they're way cooler now than they used to be. Um, but yeah, what what got? What is your take on compression therapy for for both like, cuz you've also got a range, I'll kind of ramble on again, you've worked out, perhaps you use it in your workouts as well tell everybody what's so great about compression therapy?
Well, like you said, it can, it doesn't have to be, you know, lymphedema lymphedema that it's used for, it really is kind of just for the general public as well. So for us, as massage therapists, for sure, anybody who's on their feet a lot, you definitely can benefit. It helps with fatigue, you know, it helps with like, some people are more prone to swelling. At the end of the day, you know, when you get that kind of sock and dents that just won't go away. I found it really helpful. I have a couple of pairs and for flying as well just you know, prevention of deep vein thrombosis and just general kind of, you know, feeling better. So I'm yeah, I'm very, very pro compression therapy. Obviously, I can't recommend that technically, within my scope of practice as a massage therapist, but I can certainly mention it to people and say you, you can explore this, you know?
Yeah, yeah, amazing. And then with the Lymphedema Therapy training, when they like that third part of your border, it gets into a wrapping component. This was one of my favourite pieces of it. But in practice, I don't use it that much, just because of the type of space that I have. I don't I don't have access to all like, you know, the materials. What did you think about that? That compression wrapping component?
I love it. I mean, we we all wrapped each other so much that at the end of the course, we're just we're actually feeling great. And then of course, because there's so much bandaging. So, yeah, I love it. And I can absolutely see your point about, you know, if not fitting within everybody's practice, I have actually not done it yet in practice, because the lymphedema patients that I've gotten are very, very early or subclinical stages. So haven't had to use it yet. But I think the logistics around, you know, ordering the bandages, charging people for it, you know, and incorporating into practice is it's a little bit more complicated, doable, but a little bit more complicated. For sure. Yeah.
And with the compression therapy that you're you well, so with the compression like garment, let's say they can be expensive for a good ones and but you have your part of the assistive device programme and Ontario and I'm looking into this myself, so I'm curious to see how difficult it was. Can you explain a little bit about what that means both for you and for like the the patient?
Yes, absolutely. So the system devices programme. It has many different branches. The lymphedema compression wear is just one part of it. That's what would be kind of an our scope or not, not our scope of practices RMDs but available to us. And it basically provides a little bit more coverage for people. So up to 75% of the garments are covered it I believe it covers a garment or two garments every six months. But then if people want them a little bit more often they just get one pair. And they can get it renewed every four months, I believe. And it just makes it a little bit more accessible because some of the garments, some of the garments can be quite expensive. The custom garments especially, there are some circular knit what's called ready made garments that are available for people with very early stages. Those some people just get without the programme because the programme introduces a lot of extra steps that people sometimes don't want to take. But it is it is very helpful for a lot of people. But it also doesn't cover certain things. So it doesn't cover nighttime garments. It doesn't cover vests and bras which a lot of people actually do need. So there are some limitations. Yeah. Yeah. But
in the process of becoming like a certified like, like to be one of the people that come to like, how did that how did that all go about?
So once you have your lymphedema therapist certification, it becomes fairly easy. They require for RMTS they require proof of you completing massage therapy programme, or rather prove that you're registered with a cmcl then they require proof of a completion of that certified lymphedema programme and then you need to complete a seminar or workshop with a fitter so that can be any of the fitters that provide training in Canada. Some of them do it for free, some of them you know to small fees under $100. Usually, it's usually one to two days training. And they basically familiarise you with their line of compression garments and the products they offer and they also go through all the measurements with you. And once you submit all of those certificates to the programme, usually within four to six weeks, you become authorised. Excellent. Oh, that's
really good. And what is your sort of practice? What is your day to day look like now within your massage practice,
it's mixed. It's it's still majority of it is still Swedish and coughing, I do cupping as well. But yeah, the majority of it is still, you know, what we would call traditional regular massage. I am expanding a little bit more so making some more connections and networking in kind of more cancer oncology world, but I am getting more post surgical patients patients with, you know, maybe I have lymphedema, maybe not kind of thing, really early lymphedema. And yeah, a lot of a lot of post cancer patients, but also some just general interest from people because I, you know, try to market myself so much as manual lymphatic drainage therapists, so I get people wanting to try it out. Yeah, so
you're definitely trying to like go in that direction to be to offer that sort of exclusively. But obviously, you're not turning anybody away for for therapeutic massage yet at this point. So that's great. We had discussed earlier via like email that the knowledge of one that you can develop lymphedema symptoms after surgery are pretty like, nobody lets you know that you're going to potentially develop these symptoms, and then what to do about them, if you do develop them. Can you explain some of your experience maybe even with your you know, your mom, as you described, there that you wouldn't have known if you hadn't learned about it?
Yeah, I wouldn't have known. It's possible that with my mom, she was provided some materials. And she was a little bit older there, you know, other mental health concerns that it's possible that she just didn't read the materials, because sometimes they'll give you most often, actually, they will give you you know, pamphlets and a couple of pages of, you know, printed paper that nobody really reads. But that conversation I find often doesn't happen from my experience. So what I've seen with the people that I've worked with my patients, is it's either mentioned in passing, or there's, you know, lymphedema is the thing, don't worry about it kind of thing, or it's not mentioned at all, and people are not educated on, you know, what can cause it, what early signs look like, basically, what happens a lot of the time is, by the time people come to us, they have later stages, which is unfortunate, because it's it becomes harder to manage to later it is
right, right. And manage is a key word because unfortunately, it we're not going to be able to cure, cure it, but it becomes manageable, the earlier that we can detect it or the more we can like, bring it back to a reasonable level. Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. It's really great for you to be in Toronto, I think just for that networking and for the accessibility, from my experience, even just in Ottawa, it's like making sure that you have as much information as you as you can available online. So your website, you're doing your Instagram, because people are coming out of these surgeries with like, you know, the word like lymphatic massage, or lymphedema, and then they're just typing that into Google to search for like somebody in their area. So that's been really interesting, just to see what's come out of it. And then, for you, being in Toronto, one of the trends that I'm seeing here, prior to probably like 1012 years ago, at this point, I did a lot of palliative, and I saw a lot of cancer patients pull a post surgery, and that was very, it was very emotional. It was very, it was just very hard to do that, that work at for me personally, and I had really bad boundaries back then as well. I was doing a lot of home visits. And I felt really bad, like ending a session to like, run off and like go to another one. Like I just even though it's what we do, and nobody can tolerate an all day massage. You know, like there's, you know, it just felt like that transition was just really, really sticky for I didn't love it. And so I once I sort of took a I took a pause but also moved so it sort It all all ended with me there. But when I came back, I really didn't want to go into that that area, again palliative and cancer, I will see them absolutely. But I don't put myself out there and I anymore. But what's been really interesting is the cosmetic surgeries have really bumped up, especially since COVID. So we're getting some really interesting patients like with these wonderful like, as a massage therapist, as someone who loves like the bodywork and anatomy, we're getting these incredible post surgeries to like work on and all they get is like go find somebody who does lymphatic massage, they Google us. And then and then they come in? Are you feeling like this might I mean, you can kind of choose your own adventure, of course. But have you seen this trend? Is that something that you might go in, like, go into explore as well? Or do you want to just stick to maybe posts like cancer recovery
really open to any type of post surgical, I love working with those patients, again, from the point of view of I know, I can help them and I can see how much difference it can make and feeling and the results that they get. And I find it's just a different end of the spectrum. For people post cancer surgery versus people post cosmetic surgery, that, you know, there's still that emotional connection to the results, that emotional kind of very loaded reaction to how they see their body after surgery where you know, it's swollen, and it might be deformed and might be discoloured. And then the results that they want to get to, you know, just kind of reconnecting with a new body that they have. So it really is all fascinating and interesting to me. And I think just because somebody had you know, what we would call elective cosmetic surgery doesn't mean that, you know, it isn't as important to them, if not more important, maybe than somebody that had to have surgery. Now
that's really well, really well put that like their connection to their body is they're still processing that change. And it is very, very true no matter no matter the reason. So that's Yeah, that's really interesting. What does what did your interest? Like? Like, how did you become interested like in massage therapy, like, again, we're jumping but like I forgot to ask that in the beginning, I excited about lymphatics and lymphedema. What got you interested in massage in the first place?
I think I've always been really fascinated with, you know, our bodies, how they, how they operate, you know, anatomy, biology have always been kind of my my strengths in school. And just generally in life. I've always been kind of into, you know, movement, fitness, all things, all things related to that I'm, I'm a fairly active person as well. So there was that obvious connection, but I also love working with people, I love meeting people, I love learning about people. You know, I was one of those people that yes, retail was difficult. But when I worked in retail, that was the part I enjoyed is having the conversations with people kind of learning their, you know, motivations where they come from. So I think at some point when I was going through my career change, and I was doing some career coaching, and all these things kept coming up, that sounded so boring to me, you know, it was like, Oh, you can be a health inspector, you would be really good at that. Because you have an analytical mind and you need to be challenged. You can be an investigator, and it just, it sounded so boring. It sounded like you wouldn't be connecting to people. So I think I remember one day I was I think I was I have this distinct memory of driving up the DVP and just the word massage just flashed into my mind. Yeah, and then and then I remember I think I talked to my partner the time has been now and and I said hey, how about massage? Because like I don't know, I mean you're gonna be in a room by yourself with a you know people all the time and so that sounds great. Yeah, okay. It sounds like you can create some really meaningful connections and really help people learn
Yeah, and and to the point that you know, when you're doing their career counselling or coaching like yeah assured if Anna like an analytical mind and investigation are like keywords that popped up well 100% That can be applied to your massage career because every body on the table is a little project that has some mystery to it and we're all just trying to problem solve. You know, it is I love like when clients are like how did you know that was that was gonna be sore, or they're like, just that aha moment when you help them connect See the dots about like if they're, you know how they're going about their day? And they're like, Yeah, well, when you do that, don't you think like that's causing this? And they're like, oh, like, Yeah, whatever you can give them a new way of doing something should help, you know, retraining, different different behaviours and physical movements. It's so exciting. Yeah, that's amazing. Wonderful. And so your partner was on board, and you chose Sutherland Chan, obviously a very popular school for massage therapy in Toronto. Did you? Did you consider any other options? Nope.
That was the only one. Yeah, that was it. I mean, so we had CCM. H, the, the Canadian college of massage and hydrogen. Yeah. So that is no more in Toronto. I think they have other locations. But yeah, I looked at them as well. But I think whenever I had an RMT that I liked, they all seem to have gone to settlement chance. So I was like, Well, I mean, I like them and they seem really knowledgeable then that sounds good. It was, you know, a reasonably reasonably short programme. And they had a good reputation. Yeah,
yeah. They do have a wonderful reputation. And one of my favourite massage therapists en cam has been an instructor there. He's wonderful. He's been on the podcast. He does wonderful courses. He's just an awesome person. So I know there's many other instructors. That's just I only know, we know, Ian. But yeah, awesome. Yeah. It seems
to be the common one for everybody. I'm still in touch with him as well. So
yeah, yeah. That's cool. And so you you met you know, you're very active lifestyle as well. You mentioned that you see, you see massage therapists in the past? What does? Like what does your routine for for self care look like right now?
Right now. It's, for me, it's regular movement. So in my case, I work out of the gym three times a week, I found that what happened during the pandemic, is I kept accumulating injuries because I wasn't as active. We were all stuck at home, the gyms were closed, you know, it was just trying to get outside. But yeah, for me right now, it's strength training, kind of mixed strength training three times a week, and making sure that I take the time to warm up and cool down. After which, as I get older, I realised there's a lot more love more important than I thought in my 20s Perhaps. Right. And, and really managing my schedule a lot. Again, because I have, I have some chronic pain, I have some, some old injuries that are kind of, you know, being stubborn. So really managing it. And that's why I'm really happy that it's flexible, because I can adjust my hours if I need to. To take care of myself. Yeah. Yeah,
absolutely. Being two years into practice so far. Is it what you expected it to be? Did you like? I mean, you said the flexibility. So obviously, like you're managing your schedule, if you're having good days, you run with them, if you need some rest, you're taking the rest. But yeah, what does what does a new new massage therapy career look like?
Yeah, so it's a lot, it's definitely a little different than I expected in terms of how my body has reacted to it. So I thought going into it, I have a background in in powerlifting, and strength training, and I thought I'm a strong person, like, this is going to be fine. No problem with that, you know, I can give people the pressure that they need. And it's going to be very easy. And it's, it's definitely not as easy. And, you know, it's it's also because I am what people see as a quote unquote, deep pressure therapist. So I think, perhaps I tend to, I tend to overwork myself a little bit, but yeah, it's been it's been a little bit more challenging, but I also find that as I go, it gets easier. So it has been getting easier. It's just not gotten easier as quickly as I thought, you know, I thought within the first year, it would just be a piece of cake and it really shifts a lot.
Right. Right. So you're just trying to find that balance of like, what your body what your body how your body feels good. There's a mental component to it as well in our you know, in our career as well. You can physically feel good at the end of the day, but you can be mentally drained. And then sometimes it's the other way around. You're like yep, my, my energy while like my my mind feels sharp, but like my body is super tired or just feeling sore. So yeah, no, that's really, really refreshing with regards to who everybody in your class at the time? Do you know of everybody? You know, did anybody decide because of the COVID break there and sort of the online stuff? Like did anybody back off and be like, You know what, this isn't for me, I'll come back when it's it's hands on again, or?
Yeah, there were definitely a few people, there were people that just took a break. There were people that never came back. And perhaps they decided, you know, this was too much. It was a very difficult time for everybody, I think, especially people that, you know, had kids had families, perhaps had moved here in hopes of pursuing this career. And this was challenging online learning was very difficult for a lot of people. It's, as you know, I'm sure you know, it's very dense material, it's it's very difficult to remember everything. And not everybody is good at online learning. You know, the, a lot of people found it hard to focus. And a lot of people had technical difficulties, as we all know, this has been an ongoing thing, I think. So there were definitely people that just never came back. There were people that took the time off and came back, basically, after most of the restrictions were lifted, and, and some that I'm still in touch with, and they were quite happy with their decision. But I think most of my class is working at this point. So it's good to see, that is
really good. Good to see, as well, when when I was in school, there was like this hub and like this hive, right, like, so you, you were a small class, but like, even while you're learning the material that, you know, it can be very hard to absorb even in a classroom environment, but at least you had, like your colleagues like, right, they're going through the same thing. It must have felt so isolating, doing that online. And especially, it was sympathies to like anybody who had a family who was also home, and you're trying to learn with everything else that was going on in the background, I really found it's very supportive. Because you could immediately read people's understanding of the material, you could turn to your friend and go, What the heck was that? Or, you know, just all these little inside jokes and things that happen in class, you just, you know, you can miss out on that one. It is all online. So I mean, good for you for for continuing on. It sounded like you said it was the right timing. You know, everything sucked that it happened, but like you were sort of like in the right spot for it to happen and keep going as normal as you could anyway.
Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Yes. It worked out for us. I know that there were people that were quite delayed in their graduation, because they they happen to catch that time where everything was shut down completely. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, as a clinic owner as well, you know, with sharing that experience with other clinic owners, we were you know, definitely there were still I feel experiencing some of that, that drag like there's we're still not seeing the the output that we used to so we're, you know, for your experience coming into the field, how, how was it finding a clinic space to work at? Well,
I got lucky, I think because the clinic that I was going to as a patient at the time, they were looking for more therapists and my RMT said, Well, why don't you apply here? I wasn't done school yet. But you know, what, what people recommended a lot was just to start the conversation and see if it is the right fit for you kind of, you know, they screen you, you screen them. And so it's it happened to work out perfectly, because we started talking about it. And I think by the time that I was registered, I had come in, they knew how I worked and we were reasonably sure that it was a good fit for for the both of us.
Yeah, that's wonderful. And, and a great way to do it. Like, you know, you're you're going to need a place to work at the at the end of it all. So why not start, like sourcing now and just kind of putting the feelers out there, but why not in the place where you're already comfortable going. You love the environment. Obviously, the therapists are great, and they're going to be wonderful to bounce ideas off of and share experiences. So that's that's really wonderful. Yeah, amazing. One thing that you did mention just before we started recording was that you're two years in and I you know, I joked I said oh, you're just like a baby, but like, you're like I feel like it sometimes. Can you share any any feedback on that? Yeah,
absolutely. Yeah. I so I think what I mean by I do feel like a baby sometimes it's just there's so much to learn. There's so much to learn. there's constantly new things coming out. And because it's kind of a blessing and a curse, that we have so much access to stuff from social media, that you constantly see, you know, new techniques being used or old techniques being kind of, you know, updated. And so I feel like, I learned so much in school, and then there's yet so much and all these courses and as a new graduate, sometimes I don't know if everybody's like this, or it's just me, but I want to do all of the courses. And there's not enough time and there's not enough money to do all of them. That's
right. Yeah, there won't. Yeah, I get it. So yeah, that's really, that's really encouraging as well. And you'll you'll never like it sounds like just the passion that you have for the profession at this point. Like, there will never be a time when you've learned it all or that yeah, it's and having that, that interest in in learning more is only going to help you become a stronger therapist, you're going to be a better resource for your clients. And yeah, it just makes for just better conversation as well, either between colleagues or with with patients. Yeah, it's so wonderful. It just never ends, though. There are always those core courses. What I found helpful is just really understanding where you wanted to focus. Like right now you know, you're focused on your lymphatics, lymphedema. So then focusing on courses that still like support that area. But also personal personal development is really important. And just try not to like it that shiny object syndrome, as well. Right. Like, I there's certainly courses that I've taken and have barely used in my practice. And then obviously, there's ones that I've used more of, so I tried to just really focus in on where am I at right now in my practice? And what what are my clients sort of asking for, like, Who What am I seeing? And where am I getting, like, stuck, you know, like, where am I not seeing that progress? And then okay, like, what course do I need to take with this, like, particular condition to keep things moving? as well? So yeah, it never, it never ends. And that's one of the really great things about our profession as well is that it, it just does encourage you to keep wanting to learn more, because the information is always changing, even from when I was in school, like the whole stretching, you know, stretching routines and, and that have really been updated, and I'm happy to run with it. I'm not ashamed to like, say to somebody that I've worked with for a very long time, and I told them the old method, and then I'm like, okay, so research is out. We're not doing it that way. Yeah,
I love that though. I love that you can update. Yeah,
and you just have to like your ego aside, you're like, Nope, this is I you know, this was the way that it was we understood for that reason. And now it's a different way and I'm running with it in this direction. So yeah, your clients really appreciate that as well. Awesome. Great. Is there anything else that you'd love to chat about? Today based on on what we shared in the notes, lymphedema, lymphatics education of Jillian's just
just generally I kind of I, I want other massage therapists to know that, you know, this, this is something that can be really helpful for patients obviously, um, you know, I'm biassed in terms of Northlanders drainage. But I think there's that misconception that you know, you can do it too soon after after injury or after surgery. And and I really want people to know that you can, you might require a little bit more education on it. But it's, it's worthwhile for your patients, because sometimes the earlier they see you the better like you can have somebody come in a day after the sprain their ankle and is ballooned. And if they can limp on over to your clinic or get to your clinic, somehow, it will make a huge difference. And they see those early stages. And same with the with surgeries. Yeah, and I do think that, you know, the extra education is is helpful for working with those more complicated cases, because there are contraindications that you need to be aware of, you know, there are some, some things that you can't do and some questions that you need to ask your patients to make sure that you're making difference that is beneficial and not not making things worse.
Yeah, no, absolutely. Have you again, you're still still fairly new. Have you encountered anybody yet? Who is interested in lymphatic massage for the benefit of their health? Perhaps they have received it like they're recovered from My cancer diagnosis. Have you had any negativity or some, some questions about is, is this actually safe for me at the stage that I'm at? I've had family members really give me like 30 looks. When I'm there, I arrived to give them lymphatic massage and the family I could just I sent like something was off. And the the patient that I had explained to me, he's like, Well, you know, they were they I told them, I was having lymphatic massage today. And then they said that the lymphatic massage is going to spread that cancer, right. And so I that's what was the dirty look was for when they came in the room. And I sensed that. So it was just that, have you encountered anything like that? And how have you had to handle it?
I haven't had that per se. But I've definitely had people that wanted to get lymphatic massage. And it ended up not being the right fit. And it was just kind of that sense of disappointment, like I was told that this is helpful, you know, I have swelling in my legs. And this is this is going to help. And I had to say no, because they had a heart issue or kidney issue. And there's just not enough evidence there is definitely more than anything, I do see people that gets sent for lymphatic drainage that have some contraindications. So not necessarily, you can't have it at all, but it needs to be modified. And they're not told about this. So I think that happens a lot. So you know, people that, for example, have an undiagnosed lump, or an irregular lymph node, you know, and they're told, but you can have lymphatic massage, and this is fine. And, and then I have to tell them Well, again, I'll end here the things we can do in here, the things we can't, here are the areas that we can avoid.
Yeah, absolutely. Like just looking at it, like did the benefits outweigh the risks? You know, and our lymphatic system moves by, by movement. So if you're gonna get up and walk across the room, you know, how, you know, how can, you know, the lymphatic massage, be much different, I mean, we really do put a bigger force on the system, but, you know, I just, I try to, you know, definitely with the education, try to meet them at their level, and then may help them make the informed decision that they, they, you know, for what they want to do. And there's always the people as well, like, it's, it's disappointing, but like for them as a client by weight, I'm certainly getting a lot of people like that, just want to try it. And some of them then we get thrown words around, like a person is going to help me detox and things like that. And then I'm like, No, it doesn't, it doesn't do that. And then there's that little bit of disappointment. I said it because, you know, still go through with it. But if you change your mind that we can just transition into a Swedish you know, therapeutic massage, it's fine. But you know, they kind of come for these, like, big health, like trendy reason. And then you kind of have to give them a little bit of edge education as well.
I've definitely seen that as well, for sure the detox is is very, a very common one and slimming down. Yeah, is a very big one, which is not to say that, you know, they can go somewhere to get that quote unquote sculpting treatment, I wouldn't do that and the scope of my practice as an RMT. But some people do and that's okay. You know, it's just not my focus. But I would never tell somebody that you know, it can help them slim down but I do try to reframe it for people I do try to say, you know, it can be supportive to the immune system, and you can, you know, it can make you feel or look a little bit different because you might have been bloated or puffy when you came in and that helps but it's also temporary. Yeah,
very temporary.
very temporary. Yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, exactly. No, that's That's wonderful. I mean, I'm glad you've had similar experiences and and you know, can can share on how you've been able to manage them as well. Well, this has been lovely I love talking about this particular topic and experience again, because there's not many of us that do it. So it is really neat to to chat with you as a certified lymphatic massage therapist and lymphedema therapist. Any closing thoughts there Natalie,
go try lymphatic grid. And yeah.
I agree with that. Because especially if you work in a group, like a group environment, like a clinic environment where there's multiple massage therapists and we all have different skill sets, like we have different strengths, definitely yeah, book in with that therapist that does lymphatic massage so that you can experience it yourself. You can feel the benefit So you can see what the technique is like and how the therapist works instead of just going for that, that therapeutic massage. That's a really good point. Awesome. Thanks so much for your time today, Natalie. I really appreciate it.
Thanks again for for having me. I really enjoyed chatting with you. It was great.
