It's really easy to get stuck in your own brain, everybody forgets, I think that what you see of the world or the world that exists as you believe it to exist, it's all relative, you know. And so the world that you're living and across the desk from me, it's probably completely different from the world I'm living in. And so, reality is does, doesn't even exist. It's all about the stories that we tell.
writers take readers to other worlds into the minds of people that they have never met. But how does one get from the blank page to those places, tapping into creativity takes some practice. Welcome to random acts of knowledge, a podcast presented by Heartland Community College. I'm your host, Steve fast. Our guest today is the author of novels in a creative writing teacher as well. She's the author of the books value of the Bs, and DIY. Hi,
I'm Amanda Webster. And I am a community education teacher here at Heartland Community College. And I mostly teach some creative writing classes. So I have a background in writing myself, I really enjoy teaching creative writing workshops, where I just have the students write what they want to write, and then we sit down and we review what they've written. And they get a chance to get feedback on their writing,
how important is getting feedback when it comes to developing as a writer.
And that's probably one of the hardest things about being a writer is getting the feedback that you need on what you've written, because there's always a huge gap between what you think you've written and what you've actually put down on the page. And it's really hard to see that without getting an outside perspective. So I really enjoy teaching those kinds of classes. My day job I work in university advanced minute
ISU, where do you find time to write
finding time for writing, it's just kind of you have to be okay with writing a couple of sentences here and there, if that's all you have time for. But you also have to be disciplined enough to remember, hey, I need to keep doing this. So you know, you don't write a whole book at a time you write a sentence, and then another sentence. And you know, if you keep writing a sentence after sentence, eventually you have a whole book.
Let's talk a little bit about the books you have written. So it's a few now, yes. When you start writing, do you know it's going to be a book? Do you know it's going to have enough legs to even be finished? I imagine nobody starts something without the intention of finishing it. But when do you know those things?
Well, in the beginning, I always know it's going to be a novel. And I always believe it's going to be finished. I've had a couple of projects where I've written like 100 pages, and then I'm like, this just isn't going where I want wanted to, it's not heading toward an ending, eventually, I'll put those aside and just work on something else. And I don't completely give up on anything, I think, well, maybe it just needs to compost for a while. And I always like to use that analogy, like I think of, you know, we put all of this stuff into our brains. And then our subconscious does all of this work with everything that comes in, and you never know what it's going to come out with sometimes. So I don't give up on anything, I just put it aside. And it might, you know, I have a couple of projects that I feel bad that they're sitting there, I'd put so much work in them, but they weren't really going anywhere. So I moved on to something that I could finish. But you know, you never know, I might come up with an idea later on and go back to one of those projects. But for me, I've never been able to write short stories very well, because they always want to be novels. I always know pretty early on that I've got enough. And probably my biggest problem is having too much and having to narrow my focus down to one novel. Because, you know, otherwise, I one of my projects that I have kind of sitting on the back burner. It's like a game of thrones want to be, you know, huge series of books that I don't know if I'll ever go back to it just because I don't want to spend the rest of my life working on that one.
Going back to what you said about working with students, what they've written might not necessarily be what they think they've written. I would assume when you're working on a book at home, you aren't workshopping it in a class. So how do you get that kind of feedback.
I also run a creative writing workshop at the library in McLean. And you know, it's a really small library, we just have a very small group. So I always bring my own work in there. And so instead of being the teacher in that group, even though I facilitate the group, I'm just one of the writers in the group. So I have been able to use that to my advantage. I work with some really great writers that I really respect the feedback that I get from them, and I feel like they've have helped me make better books. I can bring a chapter and get chapter level feedback or when I have a full manuscript and I'm like, Hey, does anybody want to read this? Something like yeah, definitely, you know. So. And that's something that I know a lot of writers struggle with, is finding that community to work with, because we all have different perspectives. And we think we know who our readers will be. But at the same time, we want to appeal to a wide range of readers. And you know, there's so many things that you have to think about what your readers might be bringing to the story. And it doesn't matter how good you are at filling in the gaps in what you want to write, the readers will always bring their own Outlook to a story. And so it's almost like every novel is a different, completely different novel for every person when you think about it. But for me, after I finished a manuscript, I look at it and, you know, my first thought is always, this is great, nothing needs to be fixed. And so I always I actually, part of my process is to put it away, because if I'm sitting there thinking a first draft is great. They've got the rose colored glasses on, and I'm not saying a lot, I just, you know, you just have to be open to that and know that, you know, even Stephen King says that first draft suck, you know, so it's like, do I think I'm Stephen King, you know, do I think I'm any of these other great authors that say that their first drafts are always awful. So I put it aside, and I work on something else. And then when I come back to it, I can look at it with almost, it's like you, when you're writing, you use one part of your brain. And then when you're coming out of work as a reader, you use a completely different part of your brain. So it's like, you have to consciously find a way to switch, flip that switch. So when I'm in writer mode, and I'm just finished the manuscript, and I think I've done everything I can, that's when I know I need to put it aside and kind of let it sit and also work my way into flipping back to the reader side. So when I come at it from a reader perspective, then I start to see things, and I usually fix everything that I can, and then I take it to my workshop group, and they always find a whole bunch of other stuff. And then once they start pointing things out to me, then I really start to see a lot more for myself, it's really easy to get stuck in your own brain. And everybody forgets, I think that what you see of the world or the world that exists as you believe it to exist, it's all relative, you know, and so the world that you're living in, across the desk from me, it's probably completely different from the world I'm living in. And so reality is, does, you know, doesn't even exist. It's all about the stories that we tell,
when you're working with your students to give them the kind of awareness to get in the mindset that you're talking about how to look at their work as a reader, but also to absorb any criticism or notes that might come from a workshop? What do you do to try to get these developing writers to think like that?
So I start out with a specific set of guidelines that we go over. And we talk about a lot of these different theories and concepts. And you know, talk about how have you ever written a text message and you thought that the tone was fine. And then the person who received it got upset, because, you know, they received it in a different way. So I like to talk a little bit about those everyday communications, you know, there's always a gap. And so you're always trying to fill in those gaps and trying to adjust your message to the person who's receiving it. And we go over in the guidelines that talks about what they should do and what they shouldn't do. So either while their work is on the table, or while they're looking at someone else's work in the community education classes, everybody is there because they want to be there. And so a lot of them are they really want to be writers, and they really want that feedback. And I feel like a lot of them. This is what they're looking for, like how do I find someone to look at my work and help me make it better. So it helps that they come in already looking for that. And then when we sit down and do the feedback, the writer whose work is on the table, they just kind of sit back and they don't talk and they just take notes while everybody else talks. So that way they can absorb the feedback that they're getting. And then once everyone has given them their feedback, then they can ask questions about the feedback, we really try to let the work speak for itself. So I always say if don't come in and say this is really horrible, or it's not as finished as I would like it to be I say Just don't say anything, bring it in, let the work speak for itself. Let us let you know if it's doing what you want it to do. And then I also really stress the fact that we're not trying to turn someone else's work into what we want it to be. We're trying to figure out what they want to achieve and then we're doing what we can to help them achieve their goals. I think that's really important too, to not make the writer feel like we're hijacking their work
some common advice that I Have heard for writing is if you want to be a writer, you should write write all the time, even if it's not what you hope it will be just keep writing. But how important is it for writers to read,
extremely important, I read constantly, I've been a constant reader my entire life, I always have at least a book or two that I'm working on. And especially, I would say, a lot of times, I try to read the same types of work that I'm writing myself, for example, I don't really think of myself as a poet. But I took a poetry class where I had to write poems. And so I read a lot of poetry. And the more poetry I read, the more kind of came out of me, it made it easier for me to write poems. And so I feel the same way, if I'm writing, maybe I'm writing a certain type of young adult novel, then I'll read a bunch of young adult novels, or if I want to do something a little bit more literary, then I'll read more literary novels. And then there's also the research aspect, I just started a new project, where I'm looking for, I have three different characters of different ages. And so I'm looking to read stories, more like memoirs, and nonfiction from a certain age group of women who have experienced a certain kind of thing in their life, and I'm having a really hard time finding them. And it's like, oh, my gosh, I really feel like I need to read these books and read other people's stories. So I can get that insight. Because I'm not a 60 year old woman. And, you know, I feel like I don't want to make assumptions about how 60 year old women feel about a certain life predicament that I'm writing about. So it's really important to read other people's stories and try to get inside their head. So you can write authentic characters,
you have a new book coming out, is it classified as a young adult novel?
So it would be classified as a young adult novel. So in marketing terms, that's where a lot of times genre really comes in? is in a bookstore or library, what shelf are we going to put this book in? So this book would most likely go on a young adult bookshelf. But I also have a lot of readers, adult readers who have read some of my previous novels, who said, you know, I never really thought that I would like young adult novels, but I there was a lot more, not really adult themes, but more complexity. I know some people kind of look down on young adult novels, too. And I think sometimes young adult novels are really well written because they have to be really well written to capture a teenager's attention and be more concise.
I think sometimes, if a book has a teenage protagonist, it gets marketed as a young adult novel. And the title of your book is DIY. Hi, can you explain where the title comes from? And give us a little bit of an overview of the story.
The story is about a teenager named Gabby, she's grown up in a small town that is very much like the small town I live in here in McLean County, in central Illinois, lots of cornfields. And so she's a really smart kid who really wants to go to college when she finishes high school. But she's also dealing with a lot of really big issues in her everyday life. She's got a father, who's a drug addict, and pretty much absent from her life. And a mother who has, for the most part, been a really great mom. But then she's had some health issues. And she's started using prescription opioids for pain management, but it's kind of gotten out of hand and then she, her mom ends up losing her job. Then Gabby's like, well, I feel like I'm the adult in the family, and I have these younger siblings, and we're about to get kicked out of our house and lose our van and we need groceries. So for her, it's like, you know, she wants school to be her top priority. But it can't be you know, cheese, she has to survive, her family has to survive. And so she tries to drop out of high school to work full time at the diner where she's had a part time job for a while trying to save up to buy her own car. So her mom kinda is like, No, I'm you're not dropping out of high school. That's unacceptable. And, but then her mom also realizes, I think she is not all there and she's not supporting the family and someone has to so she said, well, we'll just homeschool you and you know, then you can still finish high school and but also work full time until I can get things back on track. Her mom really means well and really wants to do for her but then, you know, she's got this prescription opioid addiction that is really taking over her life and she's not really there. So Gabby has to step up and start homeschooling herself. You know, she really wants to go to college. This is what she wants. But then next thing she knows she, you know, she has a coworker at the diner who was like, wait a minute, you can do that. And she's like, I've never I never finished high school because you You know, my dad kicked me out when I got pregnant. And, you know, so then she's like, Yeah, so next thing you know, long story short, Gabby has basically started her own, do it yourself High School at the local library. And she's got all these people that a couple of people studying for a GED, and one of our high school classmates who just he's on the five year plan in high school, like school really isn't his thing. And, you know, the school isn't really, it seems like a lot of times schools aren't set up to address the needs of those kids that just, they're not going to college. They need to be able to get a job when they get out of high school and, you know, actually do something with their life. So his mom drags him in, and she's like, can you help him get his GED because he has an opportunity for a different kind of job, but he needs to get at least have his GED. So Gabby's like, oh, my gosh, I just want to graduate, I just want to go to college. And so it's kind of that struggle that she goes through where she's always that responsible person who's taking care of everyone else, even as a teenager, but then, you know, When does she get what she needs?
We don't often see stories of rural working class people played out in popular culture. Or if we do, there's some sort of magical thing that moves a character that would live in a rural area young person to some prestigious college, or some drastic change in circumstance. Did you do more research for this book or read comparable works, as you said, or living in a small town? were you drawing more from your own life?
I really did draw on my own background a lot. And I, you know, I grew up in a blue collar family, most people didn't go to college. So it wasn't like, when I was in high school, it wasn't like, which college are you going to it was more like which factory Do you want to work out when you graduate. And those factory jobs just don't exist very much anymore. So I feel like there's a real need to figure out what jobs do exist. For those people who aren't headed for college and college isn't for everyone. And, you know, I'll put in a plug for Heartland I feel like the community colleges are the place to really address those needs. When I was growing up in Effingham County, Lakeland College was our local community college. As an adult, I spent a couple of years teaching in the Wisconsin Technical College System, which is really comparable to the community college system here. And I had students who would get a two year degree, and then they would immediately get a job in Wisconsin, the technical college system is really great at partnering with companies and figuring out what those companies need. And then training students with the specific skills that those companies need. And I know there was one company they were working with, I want to say in Arizona, where it was a very specific skill set that they needed employees to have. And so the technical college worked with them to build a program, the company paid for all of the equipment and stuff they needed to train the students. And these kids were graduating with a two year degree, they did have to move out of state for these jobs, but they were moving out of state for like a $35 an hour start pay, they were graduating with a two year degree and making more money than I was making teaching them and you know, I've now have two master's degrees. And I know so many people who go to community colleges and technical colleges and get that training and specific skill sets. And they can really make a lot of money and actually be middle class. And a lot of people can't do that anymore. And so I feel like our educational system really needs to start doing a lot more of that figuring out what jobs actually exist, and helping kids get there and not, not just you know, making them wait until Community College. Let's start doing this in high school.
How did you get in the mindset of a teenager to write your main character? Did you just think about your own teenage years rely upon memory? Was that kind of a scary thing to do?
Maybe a little bit, I think the challenge is to get into the brain of today's teenager. And I always feel like my upbringing was so so I grew up in a really rural area. And we didn't even have indoor plumbing until I was about five years old. And this was in the 80s You know, this wasn't, you know, the 50s and 60s. So it was a very rural area and we grew up so differently from how my kids are growing up sometimes I almost feel like I'm more of a grandparent, you know, when I compare our experiences and they you know, they have their video games and Netflix and Hulu and all that kind of stuff. And I had a black and white TV till I was 13 and three channels on the antenna. So to me and I can look back at my teenage years but they're so different. I'm not sure how relevant they are. But I live with teenagers and I have a lot of teenage nieces that I love to spend time with. And I think what they like about hanging out with me is I just come down to the teenage level and just pretend like I'm one of them. And, you know, so I think a teenage mindset is something we can all have ourselves sometimes. And you have to think like a teenager to be a parent to a teenager too, I think sometimes.
So this might be a question that that your students may have, how does a writer get published with the technology today, people can write a blog pretty easily, and you can self publish online, you could write a book, have it self published, uploaded to the internet, but that might not get a book or story any attention.
Um, so we talk a lot about in my classes, just starting locally. So instead of saying, Oh, I'm I wrote this really great short story, and I'm gonna get it in, in the Paris Review, or The New Yorker, you know, that sort of thing. I mean, I don't think I'm going to get any short stories in any of those magazines, as a teacher, you know, someone with a master's degree in creative writing. So most of you probably aren't right off the bat, it's going to take some time, and you'd start in the local area, and you find out what publications are near you. And you just start sending stuff out and just accept the fact you're gonna get a lot of rejections. But hopefully, they will be rejections that come with good feedback. And you take that feedback to heart, and you just work at it. And as far as publishing novels, it's really hard. So very few people actually published traditionally. And it seems to me from a lot of the literary blogs that I follow a lot, that most of the books that are getting the press are written by people with MFAs, who all went to school together, and they all know each other. And it's like, well, if you didn't, if you don't have those connections, it's almost impossible to get published. But like you said, with the technology, just about anyone can just go publish themselves. And that's, that's really what I've done. And part of the reason is because I feel like I don't think the big publishers are going to go for some of what I write. So like DIY high with that more rural, in the blue collar aspects and all of that you don't see a lot of that published, unless it's, you know, stories that are written by somebody who I don't know, if Tara Westover wrote a memoir, educated, you know, and she came from this very rural, poor background with kind of crazy parents. And she ended up at Oxford and Harvard, you know, so she has the connections, and she just made such a huge jump from where she began to where she ended up that it's a big story. But those everyday stories that are more like the people I know, I just, I don't see a lot of the publishers picking them up. And I even read a quote, in a magazine article recently, where a publisher it said, you know, people from the Midwest bore me, don't send me those stories. So when I think of sending those stories, off to big publishers are trying to get an agent to shop at around I think, well, I honestly don't think they're gonna buy it. Because, you know, the New York literati, and you know, the people who are really in charge of getting those books out there. They're not interested in those kinds of stories. So I kind of have the same perspective, I guess, as Gabby and DIY high like she couldn't get what she needed. So she did it herself. And I feel like, I'm probably not going to get the attention of those big publishers. Unless I do it myself. I hate to compare my books to 50 Shades of Grey, but you know, EL James, she published her books herself and it wasn't until she built up her own following and then the big publishers picked her up and I feel like that would be probably my trajectory if I'm to someday be a big author is start out doing it myself. And then gather my own following and then get the attention of the publishers that way.
So Amanda, where can we find your new book DIY high and your other work?
So I published under the name Amanda L. Webster. So you want to make sure you remember that l there are a ton of Amanda Webster's out there publishing. So DIY high and then Valley of the Beast is another one that I wrote that takes place kind of down in Effingham County, and those are available on Amazon, Barnes and noble.com. Really any major online distributor, if you have a favorite local bookstore and you say hey, I'd like to get this book they can probably order it in for you. DIY high right now is available for preorder on Kindle, and it will be available to purchase in print starting July 9 on Amazon.
I mean, thanks so much for coming in and talking to us today. Thank you
Amanda Webster is the author of the novels Valley of the bees in DIY high. She also teaches creative writing courses at Heartland Community College. If you're interested in hearing interviews about creativity writing books in similar subjects? Check out some of the other episodes of random acts of knowledge on audio boom, iTunes and Pandora. Thanks for listening
