So joining me now from the UK is the author of changing the mood of the noisy class, Rob Plevin. Rob, welcome to the TR podcast.
Hey, thanks, Cameron. Good to be here. Thank you very much.
Before we begin, can we get a little bit of your journey through education and how you came to be doing the work you're currently doing?
Yeah, it's been a convoluted and protracted journey, I have to say, I was actually booted out of school, when I was a teenager, politely asked to leave was the was the term I guess I should use. And I always wanted to be a teacher when I was younger, and then went into working with kids with behavior difficulties in a youth group setting, I was working in the outdoor world, working with youth groups, young offenders and that kind of thing, and then eventually did go back to university and became a teacher, I worked in mainstream schools, and then found myself getting on pretty well with the kids that nobody else wanted to teach. So that became my focus. And then worked in in what we call pupil referral units and special settings for kids that couldn't handle mainstream schools for various reasons. And after about 15 years of that, I got asked to start doing training. And eventually the the demands for that became such that I, I went full time into that and set my own company.
And so now you've you've written well, a number of books, but the most recent one being a changing the mood of the noisy class. And in this book, you talk you talk about addressing the primary issue of student disengagement. And I suppose the question or ask is why do you think the problem of student disengagement is on the rise? Why? Why is that your focus particularly,
it's certainly something that I get a lot of questions about, it's certainly something I get a lot of emails about, it seems to be one of the biggest problems,
not just in terms of being able to teach kids but also in terms of getting any kind of joy from the profession, I guess, you know, it's the one thing that leads a lot of teachers these days to be giving up. And moving on from from teaching, because of student disengagement, student behavior. Personally, I feel there are two main factors at play. So we've got external, and we've got internal. So external, are probably the obvious ones, we think of one of them perhaps less obvious than the other, the less obvious one I would say is relevance. So a lot of the work that kids are learning today, I feel to them must be pretty irrelevant. In their opinion, you know, the world is changing so fast. In many cases, they are learning work learning tasks, learning information, which depends on what job they're going to go to is probably going to be worthless, when they leave schools, you know, some of the jobs that they're training for, don't even exist when they leave school. It's changing so fast. So I think they're becoming disengaged, because they don't, in many cases don't see the relevance of what they're learning towards their lives. I think it's definitely a factor. The big one, I guess, in terms of externals is technology. And I'm not against technology, it's revolutionized the way we teach and the way we learn. But it's also generated, or created, I should say, a generation of students who are constantly distracted by screens, you know, this thing's pinging and buzzing and whizzing and bringing, or trying to demand their attention. So it's no wonder that they struggle to stay focused. I read a book, a while back, called The Shallows what the internet is doing to our brains by a chap called Nicholas Carr. And I think he started with an article is Google making us stupid, don't quote me on that. But I think that was the title was something like that. And he talks about this superficial level of engagement. Because it's so common to be reading a book or doing a task or something. And then our mind start behaving like they do online. You know, swapping between activities, and pages, just as we swapped between websites, clicking on links reacting to a video that pops up or a ping on a phone, which I think has just happened on my phone, you may have heard it in the background. You know, we're, we're, we're controlled by the this technological world. And so for us as adults, that's very apparent, but for a kid growing up with a lot of screen use, I can imagine the problem is even worse for them. It's like our brains have been conditioned to crave constant stimulation. And anything that requires more than a few seconds of our attention. feels almost like a chore. And when we do try and concentrate, we're easily distracted. So like I say, we have this superficial level of engagement of concentration, which is very easily distracted. Does that make sense to you? Oh,
yeah, absolutely. But then how do you see that manifesting in the classroom?
Well, I think let's just touch on the the other aspect, which is the internal factors, because I think these are more important, really, this concept of a distracted student, it's not actually a new phenomenon. It's been around for a very long time. You know, if you think of Victorian teachers, complaining of disobedient children, they didn't have smartphones back then they had bits of slate. In Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, he talks about students playing games and dancing rather than studying. And even Plato apparently complained about distraction of young people from their from their studies. So technology and social media, they've brought about certainly an increase in disengagement. But it's an age old problem. And what I feel is, at the core of this at the root of this is what's going on on the inside. And it's to do with uncomfortable emotional states that we try and move away from. So things like boredom, loneliness, anxiety, stress, unworthiness, inadequacy, uncertainty, fatigue, these are all things that we want to move away from things that we want to escape. And that's why distractions are so appealing, they take us away from that discomfort. And once we get into the habit of allowing ourselves to be distracted, every time something becomes a little bit tedious, or boring, or difficult or tiring or uncomfortable, then we reach for it again and again. So in terms of how we see this in the classroom, kids are in the habit of being disengaged, it probably feels quite nice and comfortable, certainly nicer and more comfortable than doing difficult, tedious or boring work, or finding things too challenging. So in terms of what I see, when I go into a classroom, you know, it's bored kids, or it's kids who are frustrated, and we get all those behaviors that we're so used to as teachers.
Will you talk about responding to that with your needs focused approach? So how did you develop that particular approach to supporting those kids in the classroom?
When I first started out, I was a, a behavior management geek. I started very much as a behaviorist following psychologists like BF Skinner, Lee Kanter, from assertive discipline, both of these believed that behavior is shaped by consequences, and that positive reinforcement is the most effective way to change behavior. And at the time, I was working with some really talented, tremendous psychologists in some of the settings I was working in. And there's no doubt that those methods got results. But I gradually became more interested in how kids felt, not just in terms of getting control of them and getting to do things that I wanted them to do behave in certain ways. I wanted to understand what was driving their behavior, why they felt the way they did, and how that impacted on their behavior. Because at the end of the day, we can make a kid do anything with the promise of a significant reward or, or the threat of a nasty punishment. But what's going on for them inside? Why are they having to behave in that way. So we know that kids who are motivated purely to gain a merit or a gift of some sort, they lose interest in the task at hand, they, they just becomes about the reward just about the gift. And kids who would behave, whose behavior we control with threats and punishments. were clearly that that's, that's not sustainable in the long term. And what I found with the kids I was teaching was the very kids that you were trying to control in inverted commas, through external control methods, like punishments and rewards. They get so much punishment at home that it really didn't have any effect on them in the classroom. And what really made me question it was what was happening at home with my own son, my son was 15 at the time, and he was a bit on the wild side. And what I noticed was that the bribes and the consequences, they actually created more problems, and they solved, we were we were moving much further apart in our relationship. So I read what the big turning point for me was some work by a chap called William Glasser choice theory. And it literally blew my mind. He talked about real, intrinsic motivation, and how our behavior is largely dictated by our psychological needs. We're hardwired basically to avoid discomfort and unpleasantness by satisfying these key psychological needs. So if a child feels alone or are fearful or unheard, they've perhaps got a need for attention and connection or belonging, and if they're lacking control or choice, and they've got an need for power, empowerment. Now, that made total sense to me. So I moved away from control mesh methods, you know, treating kids like Pavlov's dogs, and into this realm of connecting deeply with them, and helping them meet those needs, providing the environment basically in which those needs can be met. And I've seen much greater to success with that,
can can you give us more detail? What do you see as the main needs that do need to be met for students to feel motivated or feel connected, what other needs particularly that are being met.
So there are a lot of psychological needs that we all as human beings share. Depending on which eminent psychologist you're following, you'll get a slightly different list. But there are some that are perhaps more more commonly stated than others. I've lumped them into three broad categories, three broad groups, because they can encompass a lot of needs within each. So I talked about empowerment or power. And I'm using it as an umbrella term for things like acknowledgement, choice, autonomy, and achievement. And it's a really powerful motivator. Kids crave and need elements of control and freedom in their lives. We all do. Nobody wants to feel like they're in in prison. And if you look at it, from their perspective, you know, how much control and choice do they have in their lives very little, we control everything, you know, we call all the shots, we tell them when they can eat, when they can go to the toilet, what color pen they've got to use, when they can take a break, we make most of those decisions. And in a bid to keep them under our control, we take away more and more of them freedom. So it's no wonder they get frustrated and have a need for empowerment. So that's the first one. And then I would say the next one would be belonging, a need to belong. And again, this is an umbrella term for connection really, and attention. And I think that's one of the main ways this one shows up is kids needing to get attention from us, and or from from their peers. You know, kids repeat behaviors that work for them. And get them what they want. So if being silly or messing around, get some attention from other kids makes them popular with other kids. And they'll do it again to meet their need for attention for connection for belonging. And the final one is fun. So it's excitement and stimulation. And that means different things for different people. You know, some people like jumping out of airplanes for fun, and some like knitting or doing jigsaws, each to their own. The bottom line is that we're hardwired to seek something which entertains us and occupies our mind. In the classroom. The way that shows up is when kids are bored or unchallenged, they seek funding in less appropriate ways. We meet that need in the kind of activities and the tasks we give our students and the way we present those tasks and activities. So empowerment, belonging, and fun would be the three I would choose.
Well, I'd love to unpack those in a bit more detail. Let's go back to the idea of empowerment, then. I mean, you mentioned before that when students feel that these needs are being met, that you find them to be more engaged and reduce, it reduces behavior incidents, so that when we talk about empowerment, that first area of need, what does that look like in the classroom, how to teachers actually go about meeting that need for empowerment?
Okay, so if we go back to some of the other needs within that group, let's look at acknowledgement. So a kid that's normally doesn't get involved, doesn't even bring a pen to class, you know, doesn't do any work. And we get them. Suddenly, one day, they're turning up, they've got a pen in their pocket, and they sit down and they've turned over a new leaf, and they're, and they're trying hard to impress the teacher and get on with their work and achieve something that lesson. Now, some teachers may have the attitude, well, it's about time, it's about time he started working, or, well, we'll see how long this lasts, shall we. So there's no acknowledgement there of the effort that that child has meant. So we can empower him by giving him some acknowledgement might also be in the realm of choice. In terms of the task that is, is presented, or the way in which we asked that task to be to be completed, you know, if we just have one question on the board, or one particular task on the board, which has got to be completed, for some kids with perhaps a different learning style, or that particular task doesn't suit for whatever reason, they might find that really difficult. So if we present a number of tasks, which all could be created or completed in a slightly different way, that is more appealing to the child purely because they've got an element of control there, they've got an element of choice in which one they do first, or indeed Which one, which one they complete. So autonomy and choice, freedom, they're their big motivators, but they've got to be presented in a way I guess we call them limited choices. You know, if you just have a free for all, then obviously, that's probably quite empowering for children, but it's not particularly empowering for us. As teachers, we don't get a lot done. So you've got, you've got to look at this realistically, you know?
So then that second key area of need belonging, which you said was a shorthand for a need for connection, how does that affect pupil engagement? Like What can teachers do to foster their sense of belonging in schools and classrooms.
So I actually feel this is by far the most important, and it's something that when I'm working with teachers, it's the one I advise them to work on. First, there's two areas of belonging, one is one to one relationships. So the teacher student relationship, and the other is the class community, trying to instill a sense of camaraderie and support within the classroom. Now, in terms of disengagement, if you've got a child who really does not feel they belong in that classroom, they've got no sense of community, and they've got no relationship with a teacher, it's quite likely that they're not going to be so engaged in tasks in class, they don't really feel that they've got a place, they're, you know, they don't feel comfortable there. So the one to one relationships, time has got to be put into that, times got to be put into that as we would put into any of our relationships. If you think about your most positive relationships in your own life. Two factors are present. One is that you communicate frequently with the person you're having a relationship with. And the other is that through that communication, that person knows that you care about them. And so they're the two ways I advise teachers to build relationships with kids. And it works quite rapidly. You communicate frequently, not just in the classroom in terms of instructional conversation, where you're telling them to do things, but having little one to one is having been interested in them as people showing that you're interested in them and interested in their life, not just in the classroom, but in the queue outside the door, in the corridor, in the dinner queue in the yard, in the bus queue before and after school, those relationships are built outside the classroom as well as inside the classroom. And in terms of community, that sense of belonging within the classroom, then I feel one type of activity more than any other builds this sense of camaraderie and support and community. And that is cooperative learning activities. So activities where you're getting your students to work in small groups and small teams, and interchanging those teams from time to time so that kids get a taste of working with. And for each other, they support each other. They provide attention to each other, and they help each other.
So after belonging, you said the last category was was fun. You identified fun as being that the third collection of needs. And I suppose there's such a broad concept, but what do you find is the best way of incorporating fun into lessons to create positive engagement?
Yeah, this one can throw up perhaps the wrong impression. I remember going for a job actually, years and years and years ago, quite early on in my career. And I'd organize this very elaborate starter activity, a really engaging starter activity. And the head teacher took me aside afterwards. And he said, Look, what you did there with the kids was brilliant, you know, you got some kids on side that we never really managed to engage normally in class. He said, you've got them all, like really wanting to learn, he said, but I would question you were brilliant as an entertainer, but what did they actually learn. And that really made me think about this idea of fun, it's not just about entertainment, it's about engagement. So it's things that we can do to have the kids look at a task in a way that makes them say to themselves, I want to know more, I want to get involved in this. So there's all kinds of elements we can bring into that I mean, we can make the environment environment itself much more appealing. With the right music, the right Dare I say the right lighting the right deck or making the room really comfortable and engaging. So that the classroom environment itself we could look at as a as a as a way to make lessons more appealing, more engaging, more more comfortable, you know, if you've got a classroom that's got nothing on the walls, it's just gray walls, and a cold gray floor and you know, desks that have got just a flat top, nothing else on them nothing going on whatsoever. Kids come in there and they're just got it's like being in prison so we can make the environment itself much more appealing lighting, music deck or really interactive displays on the wall, making sure that we we show off and acknowledge their efforts and their work in terms of putting fresh displays on the wall with their work. But also in terms of the task that we present. And I think that's probably the biggest way that we can inject some fun into the lesson. I look at Gardner's model for that in terms of the differing learning styles, but I don't pay too much interest to it. Definitely some kinesthetic activities, some hands on, get up on your feet type activities, I think they're really important whether or not it's just an energize or fun starter, or whether indeed, it's part of the activity part of the the main lesson activity. So kinesthetic tasks I feel need to be there. I also feel cooperative group work can be a source of tremendous fun for kids, you know, working together in a team, sometimes a team challenge can be introduced. So you've got teams working with a little bit of competition there as well. And then getting back to gardeners model, you know, kinesthetic tasks, tasks that are more suited to visual learners, but I like to think of it as just a bit of variety, you know, a bit of variety in the type of tasks that you give kids, and also trying to pay attention to their interests. We've got trends in terms of kids interests, you know, whatever films or music or stars that they're into, but also hobbies, you know, you get some kids are into working with animals, or some kids are into rollerblading, whatever it is. And if you can bring some of that into the classroom, then all the better.
mean, when you talk about Gardner's theory of multiple intelligences, on you sort of mentioned learning styles before? I mean, how are you? How are you seeing those practically manifest because they're, they're sort of theories and concepts in education that are not without a bit of controversy and pushback from various circles.
Yeah, quite, quite, quite rightly. So too. I don't subscribe to any one particular model, I think it's best to just pick and choose, you know, whatever works for you pulling a little bit here and a little bit, there seem to be the method that worked best for me. And that watchword for me was always variety, variety in the type of tasks that we do. So if if I'm always giving out worksheets day after day, and the task is a simple close exercise, or copy the text, text exercise, or fill in the blanks, or pretty soon, kids are gonna get bored with that. There's nothing wrong with those type of activities. But from time to time, I might throw in a video or I might throw in a roleplay exercise, or I might get them involved in something on the computer. You know, I think variety is the most important thing. And through variety through trying different tasks, you find out which ones the kids like best, you find out which ones they respond best to. And you can do a little bit more of that. Of course, you can shortcut that completely. And actually, a really good relationship building exercise is to have a meeting with your class and ask them what they want, what sort of activities would they prefer. So in one way, which was was straight away, getting them onside by showing that we value their opinion, and we're ready to listen to them. But also, we get a chance to really get into their brains and find out what's going to going to help them engage.
And this is what you go into in a bit more detail in your new book, change the mood of the noisy class, you talk a lot about using a range of activities to harness the energy of a class in a positive way. Can we unpack that concept in more detail? What do you mean by harness the energy of the class?
Okay, so the the premise of this book is basically this, how often do you see a happy content child creating havoc in lessons, it just doesn't happen. So essentially, it's a collection of activities to make kids feel good, by meeting those key needs that we've talked about to create a positive stimulating environment and create more connection in the classroom. So it's basically about putting kids in a good mood. And when they're in a good mood, the needs are being met, and there's more chance that they buy into the lesson. So they're fast, fun activities. Some of them work well as a little Energizer. Some of them work well, at the start of a lesson. Some of them are actually curriculum related. So you can feed in key words or key topics and actually run the activity around those. And some of them are just, you know, a bit of fun. But the the idea is that we can change the energy levels. So if we have a load of kids coming into the classroom, they've just been out for break, or they've been on a physical education lesson and they're all hyped up, then we need somebody to bring them down. So there are Mindfulness Based calming activities to do that. The other hand, we can have a group that's flagging, you know, that's bored, stiff or just not engaged whatsoever. And so we can inject a little bit of energy by doing some energizing type activities. And then as well as that we've got the connection activities, and focus activities. So it kind of meets all kinds of areas in the classroom to change the mood and get them feeling good. Getting them, I guess in a more positive mind state towards learning in the classroom?
Well, can I just ask who is your? Who is the class you have in mind when you're writing this book? You know, you mentioned your background coming through a kind of behavior specialist career path to begin with. So when you're writing, and thinking about this kind of approach to classroom management, what kind of class do you have in mind is this for all students is this for a particular demographic,
I worked in mainstream at the start of my career. And I then went into special special provision special ed. And in special ed, our, our groups were very much smaller. So in special ed, in some circumstances, I would have as few as sort of five or six kids in the classroom, quite extreme, children in terms of the behavior has to be said, and in the mainstream class, you know, up to sort of 40 and beyond. So my experience is from all levels of that pretty much all levels of behavior too. And, honestly, it, it works for any group, you know, these are aimed at kids, the end of the day, and kids being kids. Doesn't matter which class they're in, it's going to be something that that will reach them.
So for teachers listening to the podcast, who would like to learn more about this, this needs focused approach that you write about, I mean, obviously, the first thing they can do is, click on the link in the show notes to find out more about your book. But how would you recommend they get started to learn more and to explore this in their classroom?
So thanks, Cameron, thank you for allowing me to highlight this, because we've got two great key resources on the website. The first is one of our books. It's titled classroom management success in seven days or less, and you get a free copy of that anyone who visits the website, it's quite prominent there. Right on the homepage, you just fill in your details, and you get a free digital copy. If you scroll further down the page, there's a free web class. So it's a recording of a class that I was running a while back, which goes through the entire needs focus, teaching, philosophy, if you like, and it's very practical, it's got loads of really practical examples of how you can use the strategies in your classroom. So that's all it needs focused teaching.com needs focused teaching.com all one word. And if they, if you add a little addition to the URL there, if you go to forward slash change, mood bonuses, change mood bonuses, all one word. So it's nice focus teaching forward slash change mood bonuses, then you'll find out about bonus pack we've put together for anyone who buys the new book change the mood of the noisy class.
All right, well, I will make sure there are links in the show notes for this episode for people to to find straightaway. Rob, thank you for your time and for the conversation. It's it's very topical here in my home state of New South Wales at the moment because student behavior and classroom climate, I think is the most popular term is certainly a hot topic of discussion. So I'm sure there'll be a lot there for people to dive into who are involved in that conversation. So once again, thank you very much for your time.
Thanks very much, Cameron. It's a pleasure being with you. Thank you very much.
