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2021-12-01: (6) Defining Empathy | Otter.ai

2021-12-01: (6) Defining Empathy

Edwin Rutsch1h 27min

Edwin Rutsch

00:04

A quick explanation. This is our team to develop an empathy definitions typology.

Edwin Rutsch

00:11

And we're using the empathy circle practice to discuss the topic. And our topic is just any thoughts about the empathy definitions, project, whatever is alive for you. And we're not having any time limit. So I just wanted to give a bit of background to that. So whoever would like to start can start and select your speaker or your listener.

Edwin Rutsch

00:49

I'm gonna start now speak to you, Shannon. So I'm super thrilled about this project. Like I think I should have started this, like 11 years ago, when I first started on on, or 13 years ago, when I started amputee, I have been gathering a lot about the definitions of empathy. But I should have been really focused doing what we're doing now to really get this typology together.

Shannon McIntyre

01:17

You're saying you're thrilled about this this project? Because you're feeling sort of like maybe it's something you could have started, you know, years ago, when you were first started doing empathy circles, but you're just kind of happy to be getting to it now.

Edwin Rutsch

01:32

Yeah, and I've talked to others, you know about this project. So I talked to Marco Jakob, Boney, I interviewed him several times, and he's an early researcher on the neuroscience of empathy. And with Jeremy Howard, who does the Oxford Empathy health care Program, and I know a lot of people in the community that I like to reach out to and say, "Hey, how about, you know, contributing to this?" Or at least, you know, have some discussions with them?

Shannon McIntyre

02:08

You been sort of having conversations with neuroscience researchers, one of which is Jeremy, how UK and others and kind of getting a lot of good information there and looking forward to having more of those conversations,

Edwin Rutsch

02:23

and even got the domain name empathydefinition.com. So it now works. Just go to empathydefinition.com . I'm excited about that too.

Shannon McIntyre

02:34

So you you got a domain name, great. Fitting domain name, empathydefinitions.com. Yeah, fully heard.

Shannon McIntyre

02:45

Alison, do you want to be my listener? Sure. thing. it's great to be here and a part of this and definitely feeling some contagion in terms of Edwin's excitement about this going forward. And yeah, just kind of bringing my thoughts into this space as we start to consider the topology.

Alison Martingano

03:17

see you feeling excited to be here and sharing some of those emotions with Edwin. And and looking forward to the opportunity to share in your own ideas about the definition of?

Shannon McIntyre

03:29

Yeah, um, so I guess, in the midst of kind of collecting my thoughts around this, and Edwin mentioned, neuroscience research, and that always kind of gets me thinking about some of the most contemporary research on this topic. And I just kind of, I know what I've researched in that area, but haven't been as active in it lately. So I'm kind of looking forward to kind of seeing where the conversation goes if we discuss that topic.

Alison Martingano

04:03

So bringing up on neuro research off what Edwin was talking about, and sort of that you mentioned, you have some experience in this yourself. But you want to talk through maybe some of their influences on this.

Shannon McIntyre

04:17

Yeah. Um, yeah, I would just say, Let's see kind of looking at the interconnections between some of the the conclusions of the neuros neuroscience research and how my intersect with psychoanalysis or more like psychotherapy process is, is basically where my experience kind of begins and ends with social neuroscience stuff. But nonetheless, it's kind of it has very much perked my interest as those two fields psychoanalysis and social neuroscience are beginning to overlap a little bit.

Alison Martingano

04:59

Okay. So bringing in your expertise, which I placed in psychoanalysts and seeing the intersections there with neuro research, and then perhaps how they can complement each other, not just standing here.

Shannon McIntyre

05:12

Yeah. Um, yeah. And I think that's all for now. I feel heard. Thank you.

Alison Martingano

05:22

And then I'll watch if that's okay. Yeah. So I'm also really interested in hearing what you guys think I think I'm, I'm sort of thinking first about being a listener and hearing your different ideas. I know you've been working on this for a while. So I'd like to sort of get get up to date with where your thinking is on it. So that's sort of my first, first priority here,

Edwin Rutsch

05:47

your first priority is to kind of catch up with where our thinking is, and just be more of a listener to understand where we're coming from, or where thoughts are.

Alison Martingano

05:56

Yeah, I had a conversation with it, it must been a couple of weeks ago. Now I forget the date. But I got out a lot of my frustrations about the lack of definition, and how there just isn't a like, there's just such a lack of consensus. And, and it was it was it was very cathartic for me to sort of share those frustrations. And I think I've been today just feeling completely helpless, like this is not something that is going to be resolved and wasn't really even looking to resolve it, because I felt that it was it resolvable. So it's so interesting to hear to people that that are actually working towards them.

Edwin Rutsch

06:33

Yeah. So when we talked last time was rather cathartic, because you've got some frustrations about the definitions and just feels like it was unresolvable. And so you're interested in kind of what we're doing here with a there's hope, somewhere, maybe not, but anyways, is a very, very cathartic, I'm hearing for your frustrations to vent your frustrations.

Alison Martingano

06:58

Yeah, thank you. I think that's me, I'm fully.

Edwin Rutsch

07:01

Well, I'll speak back to you then. Yeah, I think that one thing that's unique about this project is we want to use the empathy circle practice as sort of, you know, sort of a foundational practice within sort of exploring this topic. So we're, we're bringing forward the listening and the empathy itself versus sort of a, just a more of an academic or intellectual sort of a process. So we're, we're bringing forward this actual empathy in this exploration.

Alison Martingano

07:39

So I'm hearing that you're bringing for not just the aim of exploring the nature of empty but also the method in which to do that, which is the empathy circle method. And from what you're saying that sounds like that might be the first time that that's being done. And, as opposed to the sort of more academic way that it's sort of been, people have been doing the past.

Edwin Rutsch

07:58

Yeah. And it said that there's a certain quality of listening that happens with with, with least with active listening, empathic listening. So we're really trying to create that environment of that listening, that sort of deeper listening. Yeah.

Alison Martingano

08:19

The importance of listening, I hear and bringing that in. And that being a really big key component of this practice.

Edwin Rutsch

08:26

And the other part of it is, is that we try to define the terms with actually point to what's happening in what we're doing. Right? It's not like some abstract somebody out there is emphasizing, or we're sort of abstractly, trying to if we're going to talk about emotional contagion or empathic distress, personal distress or this not what is it concern, empathic concern, etc, will show me the concern, show it to me and in the circle point to the thing that's happening right here, in what we're doing.

Alison Martingano

09:08

So one of the things about using the empathy circle is, hopefully to be able to have like, really concrete examples of it happening within the empathy circle process. So that you can really point to the different things that have been called empathy and and where they're happening within within that experience.

Edwin Rutsch

09:23

Yeah. And I think that that's unique. I haven't heard of, you know, that sort of being done it. The place I am coming from my definitions. I'm coming from Missouri, based on the work of Carl Rogers, who pretty much I think he had defined the empathy within the context of his empathic listening or active listening to clients and the client therapy. So I think one of the strong points that made him so relevant, was it he had a practice that he was doing it that and he had the experience, you know, 40 years or whatever of actually doing this deep listening versus Is the analytical relation looking at analytical relationships?

Alison Martingano

10:06

Yeah, so this is deeply influenced it sounds like by Carl Rogers and his therapeutic techniques. And, and I, and you're sort of pointing out the parallels between what you're doing and what he was doing when he's defining things. And by through his practice of doing and sort of pulling the definitions out through the experience.

Edwin Rutsch

10:24

And I think that's what made him so relevant or influential is he was able to merge the scientific with the experiential part. And so that that I think that's a powerful approach.

Alison Martingano

10:38

So Carl Rogers is managing to me like the way you phrase it, somebody's trying to say the same way. I'm mixing the experiential. With the academic I might not afraid scientific scientific. Yeah, I feel heard. I'd actually jump back in and say, Can I speak to you again? And

Edwin Rutsch

11:02

your friends? Yeah,

Alison Martingano

11:05

yeah. So I was hearing your what you were saying about pointing to the examples within the empathy circle. And the skeptic of me is coming out and wondering about whether there might be things that have been called entity that wouldn't be shown. And I was wondering if you had any ideas about whether there might be things that wouldn't be?

Edwin Rutsch

11:25

Yeah, so there's things that are called empathy that might not show up in an in an empathy circle? And just curious about about what that might be? If there's any examples of that? Yes, I feel fully heard. Okay, Shannon. Yeah, there's a, I think they've pretty much everything could be brought into the empathy, not everything, but an awful lot, lot of the blocks to empathy. The things are called empathy, which I see are actually more like blocks empathy. And even if we can't naturally do it, you know, spontaneously, that it couldn't be role played, for example, we could role play it

Shannon McIntyre

12:10

to kind of speaking to this question of what what is not empathy, and you're saying that in other things can be brought into the empathy circle? Perhaps not intentionally, but these kind of blocks do show up?

Edwin Rutsch

12:23

Yeah, so for talking about empathy in mice might be kind of hard to do. You know, it's a to be, you know, modeling that here. But there might be something we could actually role play being mice, right. There's a roleplay I'm a mouse, you're trapped in this cage, I want to rescue you or something like that users all those studies.

Shannon McIntyre

12:45

Yeah, so just like you could role play block stamp or the you could role play being like a mouse and, you know, then perhaps box to empathy would come up and doing that.

Edwin Rutsch

12:57

Yeah, and when I talked to Allison last time, I really appreciate the skepticism. I love skepticism. It's I don't want all, you know, all kind of pollyannish kinda, we're gonna do this, and it's all pollyannish you know, give me the skepticism. Yeah. Love it.

Shannon McIntyre

13:14

See, you're appreciating the skepticism that Allison had brought and that you you'd like that to be challenged in that way.

Edwin Rutsch

13:22

Yeah, and and we've been talking you and I have been talking about the empathy is sin, there's a group of ministers are in Minneapolis or conservative church, they've been saying, oh, empathy is sin, and sort of making the case for that. So I really, I really appreciate that. And I've been reaching out to him say, let's have a dialogue, let's talk about it. And, and they've been ignoring me and I just been sort of hounding them they finally have started kind of responding to me.

Shannon McIntyre

13:52

Okay, so you were kind of drawing a parallel between Alison skepticism in this group that's talking about empathy being a sin and that you were similarly kind of drawn to that kind of skepticism and have been trying to talk to them they finally respond. Yeah.

Edwin Rutsch

14:07

And, and I, you know, they just ignored me for a month and then I've been sort of upping my posts to now saying is the our pastors who are not emphasizing are they doing Satan's work? You know, every day these posts you know, sort of fit you know, provocative and and then yeah, so anyway, they finally did start responding says, No, we don't want to talk to you but it seems like progress that there

Shannon McIntyre

14:46

have been the upping the ante with these, these people that are claiming empathy as a sin and and kind of getting more and more provocative with your posts on their page and they had been ignoring you for So long, but perhaps it was this post, our pastors that something that you write, I don't remember the exact phrase, got them to finally respond with that they don't want to speak. So

Edwin Rutsch

15:10

yeah. And then I just then I'm engaging in a dialogue, well, I hear you don't want to speak with me, you know, I'm, you know, I'm glad to have three of you join in an empathy circle with just me, you know, three against one doesn't matter, we just do an empathy circle. So, um, it's like, they've had two responses. The first one was, well, we don't trust you, you're not doing good faith. And the second one, no, you don't want to talk to you. But I just see any kind of responses like go positive step, you know, so if there's some kind of something happening.

Shannon McIntyre

15:46

So there's been these two negative responses, first, that they don't trust you, and then kind of more, but you kind of see that they're engaging, at least in this and so maybe there's a chance that the three of them will come in, like you asked, and do an empathy circle.

Edwin Rutsch

16:04

Yeah. So And last thing is, is I actually appreciate the comments that they had, because they're, and we've talked about that, what they're actually identifying the phenomenon, they're actually identifying, I actually agree that the phenomenon is a problem. But they're, they're calling it empathy, or I don't think what they're identifying is empathy. So I would actually agree to them that, you know, most of the phenomenon that they're describing, or hey, that, that those are not good, you know, constructive phenomena.

Shannon McIntyre

16:40

Mm hmm. So you actually agree with them, in essence, that you agree with what they're saying. And but yet, it's just a labeling issue that what they're calling empathy and problematizing. under that heading, you don't see it as being empathy at all. So yes, you agree there's a problem, but it's not with empathy.

Edwin Rutsch

16:59

Right? Yeah, I feel fully heard.

Shannon McIntyre

17:02

Yeah. Awesome. Um, Alison, you want to be my listener? Um, yeah, I mean, I find this really kind of fascinating, this group doing this work. And actually, I think it is an issue with, I don't know if it's like self other differentiation, or, or empathy or, but we had I had this topic come up in class or in conversation with people this week. And it was like, if we empathize too much, do we just, you know, what are we doing as therapists, if all we're doing is listening, and empathizing, you know, at what point do we become active or encourage other people's agency rather than just listening? Listening, listening? Yeah,

Alison Martingano

17:58

so you were sort of talking about something that had come up in a class for you, where perhaps one of your students mentioned that maybe we're emphasizing too much, that maybe we're being too passive. And listen, listen, listen, where do you strike that balance between passively listening, and then sort of actively engaging and encouraging your clients?

Shannon McIntyre

18:19

Exactly, I feel heard. And I, I like, like Edwin, and as reflected by our conversations over the last couple of months, kind of agree that empathy is more complex than just listening or resonating with somebody experience that it's much more complex than that. And you can encourage and even insist on somebody else becoming agentic and accountable to their experience, while also very much being empathic.

Alison Martingano

18:54

Yeah, so you're sort of recognizing that of your conversations with everyone over time that you're recognizing the complexity of empathy, that it's maybe not just listening and resonating, but also could involve sort of more agentic active liking the words, but something something more active, as well, where you maybe hold people accountable or encourage them to take actions?

Shannon McIntyre

19:15

Right. And I don't think that when we're being empathic, that we have to drop all of our own values and our whole value system, I don't think that's what it is at all. I maybe some people might feel that way. But I think that's, that reflects like a different worldview. So I, those are my initial thoughts.

Alison Martingano

19:40

Yeah. So you're just talking about how, how important it is maybe to empathize without losing yourself and your own values in that and then maybe people who feel that empathy requires that maybe they're sort of not grasping sort of full possibility of it. Yeah,

Shannon McIntyre

19:57

yeah. I'm not sure what it it you Yeah, I think that's that that's the full thought right now. I mean, I don't know if the difference lies in like a modernistic worldview versus a more postmodern worldview, where you have these values and principles and you hold yourself and other people to them versus it's all relative, and I don't determine, you know, what, what's valuable to you, or who you should be or what you should live by. So anything goes, you know, I don't know if that's the differentiation or, or really what it is, but I feel like it might have something to do with these different ways that people are seeing empathy itself.

Alison Martingano

20:39

Alright, so sort of talking through on thinking through the differentiation between perhaps sort of more absolute moral values and more relative ones. And perhaps these two worldviews intersect with how people feel empathy should should work, as well.

Shannon McIntyre

20:57

Yes, I feel fully heard. Thank you.

Alison Martingano

21:04

Ah, Edie? Now, I'll speak to you at that point, right? Around. Um, so I've been really loving listening to your conversations, and I'm starting to see the overlap between your two work and sort of quarters, and then your more clinical work, and I can, I'm starting to see things so I'm really enjoying listening. Thank you so much.

Edwin Rutsch

21:23

Yeah, you're really enjoying listening, and it's starting to come together the Carl Rogers and the clinical work. You're hearing us talk about

Alison Martingano

21:33

AI, I'm really glad that you appreciate the skeptical voice that maybe I can bring. And so I it's usually my role in most of my research groups. I'm usually the one that's like, oh, but and I, I really like it when people appreciate that. Because I feel like that is the thing that I bring. So I'm really pleased that you're open to that.

Edwin Rutsch

21:51

You're pleased that I'm open to your skepticism. Is that something that you contribute to the groups that you take part in?

Alison Martingano

22:00

Yeah. And I was, I was just thinking about what you were saying even earlier about the pastors, and sort of how they were fobbing you off and not wanting to talk to you. And I was, I was wondering whether the difficulty lies both in the the requirement for them to talk about a difficult subject and have to talk about it in a new language. And I was wondering whether maybe that's just too much for people, and they, and they can't sort of speak. Like, maybe maybe we have to come into their language to have that conversation. I'm just sort of spitballing out loud here. But

Edwin Rutsch

22:33

you're sort of brainstorming like, what is it to sort of engage with them? Maybe, you know, I'm asking them to come into my language into my frame of reference, maybe I should be or we should be going into their frame of reference. You're just sort of thinking about the possibilities there.

Alison Martingano

22:50

Yeah, yeah. Although I'm, I'm scared. I'm skeptical. My own self, whether, whether that's something we we know you want to be doing, but was just sort of thinking out loud. Hey, you

Edwin Rutsch

22:59

got meta skepticism? Have your own thoughts?

Alison Martingano

23:05

Yeah, thank you. I feel familiar.

Edwin Rutsch

23:07

Okay. I'll speak to Shannon then. So yeah, this actually ties in your, you know, you're just listening, listening, listening, right? That in the empathy circle, we're doing shared listening, it's not like, Hey, I'm the therapist, you get your hour, I'm just gonna sit and listen to you. And then you're gonna, you know, go home. And that's kind of it. So the empathy circle is, hey, I'm going to listen to you, you're going to listen to me, it's a back and forth. dialogue. So it's a different it's, it's seeing empathy in or sort of a relational in a relational view. And I think this relational aspect is totally ignored in not totally ignored. It's highly, often mostly ignored in the empathy discussion.

Shannon McIntyre

23:57

Yeah. So you're speaking to this concept of seeing empathy as listening, listening, listening. And you're saying that the, the empathy circles are kind of a counter to that? Because there's a mutuality going on where? Yes, there is some listening and active listening. But the but you take turns. And so there's a mutuality and a relationality that isn't present with other types of empathy.

Edwin Rutsch

24:21

Yeah. So you were trying to get to some deeper kind of concepts, maybe some deeper premises. And it was so the premise was, maybe there's these deeper premises of, of postmodern or modern sort of thought, and, you know, what are these deeper premises? And there's, there's another premise is individual versus relational. How are we what perspective are we taking individual perspective, like only the individual seeing everything from this individual perspective? Or are we seeing it in a relationship that you and the three of us are here in this mutual empathic relationship dialog. And there's sort of a hole here. And we're seeing sort of the the level of empathy in the, in the, in the relationship.

Shannon McIntyre

25:11

Yeah. So you were kind of going off that I was trying to find some some deeper premise for these differences and how people are viewing empathy. And you're saying, well, we can also look at kind of more individualists definitions versus more relational definitions. That's another way you could see them being differentiated.

Edwin Rutsch

25:32

And the other part is the sin is empathy. One of their criticisms was, Oh, if I'm empathic, I have to listen to this person who's going off making accusations, doing, you know, all kinds of crazy thinking, their thinking is not truthful. And I have to just sit there and listen to them. And that's empathy. And, and there is no sense of truth. I can't tell them what the truth is. Whereas in the empathy, you know, for doing mutual empathy, it's like, hey, they get to be heard about whatever crazy stuff that maybe is going on for them, which is very true for them. But then they get to hear me, too. So there's, again, that mutuality, which totally overlaps with what you're saying, your class, I think was talking about?

Shannon McIntyre

26:19

Yeah. So you're saying that, that, that there seems to be this premise with this, this group or they're saying empathy is a sin that, that when we're empathizing, we just have to, we're kind of at the mercy of the person talking kind of have to accept everything that they're saying. And that's kind of the end of the story. But with the empathy circle, you can actually you can get out whatever you need to, but you might, in fact, and you are going to hear back what the other person's kind of thoughts and reaction is to what you said. And so it's not a one way street.

Edwin Rutsch

26:54

Exactly. Because they're coming at it from this individualistic sort of perspective, instead of seeing it's a it's a relational perspective. So it seems that this perspective, we come at looking at it, just like, for me, it's like 90% of the problems that are criticisms of empathy have to do with the perspective we're taking individualistic or relation relational.

Shannon McIntyre

27:19

Yeah. Like, because they're holding it as an individualistic kind of phenomenon, that they are seeing it more as a one way street. And that really greatly influences how they're talking about it. And if we talked about it as a relationship, it might be a different conversation.

Edwin Rutsch

27:37

Yeah. So they're saying, Oh, I'm doing all this empathy, I'm, you know, I'm getting swamped in empathy. I'm getting overcome with empathy. But if you and it looks like oh, there's all this high empathy, but if you look at the relationship, it's actually kind of low and empathy in mutual empathy. And so that's another way of measuring it is the what's the level of overall empathy in the relationship? Is it higher or lower? Yeah. So what are we measuring here?

Shannon McIntyre

28:05

Right, it's like when someone feels very flooded, in the midst of empathizing, quote, unquote, is that really strong, being strongly empathic? And you're saying, if we look at it as a relationship, no, it's probably a low level of empathy, when you look at the relationship as a whole.

Edwin Rutsch

28:23

Yeah, and again, bring it to the empathy circle, the that promise, they're saying, we've used one person here in the group that all the talking and everybody had to listen to them, and everybody's like, totally getting overwhelmed. Like, I can't take any more, that would sort of be you know, sort of modeling it in the empathy circle, but we don't do that we kind of share the time. So we're trying to just put that into the model of what we're doing here.

Shannon McIntyre

28:48

Right. Yeah. Like by the same token, if it was one person in a group or a relationship that was like, you know, maybe doing all the talking that it would there was start to feel imbalanced and therefore there would be a low level of empathy.

Edwin Rutsch

29:03

Yeah, feel fully heard. Yeah.

Shannon McIntyre

29:08

Speak to I'll see to speak to Alison Um, oh, my mind is swimming a bit. Um, I guess. I guess what occurs to me I've always thought of empathy. I think before working with Edwin I more thought of empathy is an individual capacity. But yet, the more time that I spend talking about it and fleshing out my ideas, the more in the kind of hearing from Edwin the more I feel, that that perhaps it is a relational a more of a relational thing think so you're

Alison Martingano

29:51

reflecting on your experiences so far. And when you were talking to everyone when you first started talking, you thought of empathy is very individual capacity. And now after having conversations just starting to consider maybe it is more relational, it's more about empathy and care or the group is,

Shannon McIntyre

30:10

right. Because even when you look at or when I consider literature and psychotherapy that might hold a more, a lot of what I've read is like a more does, think of it and talk about it as a more relate as a more individualistic capacity. There's this advocating for transparency, because if, in fact, you are kind of taking everything in or being individualistic, about resonating as much as possible, or kind of identifying even with the person in front of you, it can start to feel burdensome, and then you can quickly go into a state of mind where it's not empathy whatsoever. And in order to get back to that empathic state of mind, you actually have to using your word like be have a Qarth cathartic moment where you do come out with your thoughts and impressions about what's going on. Because without having done that, without having kind of shared or expelled some of that energy, you can't actually regain your balance in order to, to be present to the experience any longer.

Alison Martingano

31:24

Yeah, so you've been talking about some of the, the literature and in the clinical world generally focuses, perhaps on the individual sort of more empathy. And their solution to perhaps this, this feeling of this overwhelming burden is to be transparent, and to sort of share that after a certain amount of time, so you don't become overwhelmed by it. But it seems different from the sort of continual sharing that perhaps everyone was talking about. I,

Shannon McIntyre

31:56

I think I feel heard. Um, yeah, I'm sort of, as opposed to what we've been talking about. So far, kind of, in these empathy circles, I've been thinking a lot like right now about, like, the role that energy plays into all this. And so I don't know that I have a fully fleshed out thought or not, but it seems as though, you know, there's, yeah, I don't know that I can go any further with that. But it seems like there's amount of energy, emotional energy, that kind of gets titrated in, in a relationship. And maybe in an empathic relationship, that's really an important part of the whole process.

Alison Martingano

32:38

So this is prompted you to start thinking about the role of energy, and how that relates, and you're not fully formed that idea yet, but you're sort of starting to think through.

Shannon McIntyre

32:47

Like, yeah, I feel heard. Okay, thank

Alison Martingano

32:54

you, um, as we get to Shannon, if that's all right, so I have a few responses. And so I, I, I've been listening to what you're both saying, and I'm jotting down notes. I know, we're jotting notes there as well. But it's making me think of a lot of other things. And so I'm wanting to share this.

Shannon McIntyre

33:11

Great. So you've been kind of listening and jotting down notes as we've been talking and a lot has occurred to you, and you'd like to kind of share a little

Alison Martingano

33:20

bit. Yeah, yeah. So first, I'm the last point mentioned about energy. So that's sort of my whole theory on entity, if I can have the guts to actually call it my own theory is all about the the role of what I generally call like effort, but you could call it energy. The idea that, well, for me, it's certain types of empathy require a lot more energy and investment and other types require less.

Shannon McIntyre

33:47

Interesting. So you're saying like that last idea about empathy involving energy kind of relates to your theory, and specifically, this idea that empathy requires a certain amount of effort, and sometimes more and sometimes less?

Alison Martingano

34:02

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I just sort of wanted to put that out there. I also sort of I wanted to mention that close colleague of mine, who I think everyone's also spoken to before I saw Conrad on she has this theory, she's working on essentially empathy being a vessel, that you know, the level drops as you use it, but the bigger the vessel, the the longer you can last. And so she sort of uses that as a metaphor for, we want to encourage people to increase the size of their vessel. And she uses that as a comeback against people who say, you know, empathy is draining, she's like, Yeah, but the solution to it being draining is not to give up on it, but to just increase our capacity for

Shannon McIntyre

34:39

it. Mm hmm. Interesting. So you're referencing the work of a colleague that both you and Edwin have, who also is developing kind of a theory of empathy and thinks of empathy as sort of like a vessel where, yes, in fact, the more you empathize, the more that your level might go down of empathy but that The solution is not to kind of throw the baby out with the bathwater, but just to increase the size of one's vessel.

Alison Martingano

35:08

Yeah, and as I'm saying this out loud, I'm realizing that empathy scholars love metaphors. And that I'm not sure that helps people understand it might actually add an extra layer of confusion.

Shannon McIntyre

35:18

And now, this is a metaphor, which might actually make it more difficult to kind of bring home. But

Alison Martingano

35:24

yeah. And then I wanted to talk about something Adam was talking about that got really sparked my thinking, when he was talking about this, this relational back and forth. And so I'm thinking now about graduate school, and work by psycho linguists on conversation and achieving emotion, mutual understanding within a conversation.

Shannon McIntyre

35:45

So you are reflecting something on something Edwin said about empathy being relational. And it reminded you of something from graduate school, and I think I might have missed the end.

Alison Martingano

35:56

Yeah, yeah, from psycho linguists, theories on communication. So the idea being that when you're talking to somebody, the burden of understanding is not just on the person doing the talking, but also the person doing the listening. And together, you share that burden and achieve together and understanding, which, I guess now is actually an old theory, but was a change to their sort of traditional ideas that the speaker has to communicate everything, and Alyssa does nothing.

Shannon McIntyre

36:27

Interesting. So it's reminding you of these psycho linguists that you worked with in graduate school, or kind of read about in graduate school that talked about communication and how normally the burden is on kind of this, the speaker, I guess, to be as clear as possible. But they talked about how the burden is actually shared between both the speaker and the listener, and it's something maybe that they can they need to work out or negotiate in order to

Alison Martingano

36:54

reach? Yeah, and I was, I was wondering if, I don't know, I could return to some of their work and start maybe thinking about how it relates, and whether there's anything they could add to sort of how we think about everything.

Shannon McIntyre

37:05

Mm hmm. Interesting. So you're kind of thinking back to it and wondering what maybe a theory of empathy might add to that kind of theory of communication.

Alison Martingano

37:15

Thank you for fully

Shannon McIntyre

37:17

sure. Edwin, are off speed. It's kind of really interesting to it's a bit, it's a bit of a shift like kind of malware of my mind making between theories that focus on like, individual capacities, which I think I've been more used to, and to the kind of theories that reframe everything in terms of being part of a relational field. And I think it leads kind of a different view of the mind. So that's kind of where I'm at right now.

Edwin Rutsch

38:00

So you're thinking of the of the different theories, you've heard about individualistic versus relational? Or relating or, and that you're seeing that it has a different if it's a different theory of how the mind actually works. So it's kind of a deeper, like, how does the mind really work is individualistic? Or is it relational? taps into that?

Shannon McIntyre

38:21

Yeah. And it reminds me a metaphor, speaking of metaphors that you have used a few times Edwin and that I really kind of clung on to, of because I thought it was just it felt very right. To me, that felt very true to my experience that in empathy circle, it's almost identity building because every person becomes like a mirror to your yourself and a different sense of self might emerge that you weren't even aware that was there that you had really.

Edwin Rutsch

38:55

So the metaphor I mentioned about identity building, and being mirrors that you create your you're just thinking about that creating your identity is created through the mirrors from different that you have from different people.

Shannon McIntyre

39:09

Yeah, so even this thing, that's just probably the most individualistic construct you could think of being identity is actually seems like it's also tied in with a relationship. And yeah,

Edwin Rutsch

39:25

yeah. So that notion, that very individualistic notion of a your identity as an individual is actually created by a relation relationships of how you're mirrored by others is creating that individualistic identity.

Shannon McIntyre

39:42

Yeah, I think that's all for now. I feel heard. Thank you.

Edwin Rutsch

39:45

Okay. I'll speak to Allison and yeah, I made a note here about the how does this fit in the empathy circles that we're talking about? Energy, for example, is like where is the energy In this empathy circle, right we're into so I'm trying, I want to, I was thinking, I'm going to keep trying to point to what's happening in the circle itself. So we can sort of identify the phenomenon or the experience that's happening. And so yeah,

Alison Martingano

40:16

yeah. So you're thinking through the idea of energy, that means when and we're talking about, and I sort of trying to think about where that fits into the empathy circle? When do we see that? How does that metaphor relate to what we see in practicality?

Edwin Rutsch

40:28

Yeah, so I guess we could say, Where's the individual, like, here we are, there's three of us here is where does the individual and worse relationship, you know, we could try to, to point that out, because I see three of us, I see myself talking about being mirrored, I'm seeing myself mirrored. So I have a sense of the whole here to a feeling as a whole, as well as in my brain, I feel sort of an awareness of sort of the thoughts that are coming. And so so I'm seeing, I'm sort of aware of different sort of spaces here, here in this empathy circle.

Alison Martingano

41:04

Yeah, so you're talking through trying to see where the individual and where the, the relational group is, within the empathy circle, or any sort of pointing out, you know, in zoom, we're seeing each other in separate boxes, and we're also seeing ourselves and we're seeing all of this, I'm assuming we all have it set to group view. Right, and sort of, sort of thinking through, where, where all that was.

Edwin Rutsch

41:28

And it's also the felt experience is, you know, Shannon, I the last time we talked, we didn't record that, that section, but we're talking about the felt experience of cognition and, and imagination that really stuck with me is I had a real sense is Shannon was talking about cognition, she could feel her awareness going into this part of her, you know, body versus imagination, which was more of a for at least for her a full bodied sort of experience. And so that's, like, when it was when we're talking about was, like, made sort of concrete like that. It just, it just kind of really stuck with me in terms of an idea and an awareness.

Alison Martingano

42:20

Yes, you're referencing a conversation you and Shannon had in a previous empathy circle, where you were sort of focusing on the south experiences of empathy and how cognition feels sort of maybe more centered, that imagination feels more more outward.

Edwin Rutsch

42:36

At least in this case, it was a full body experience that you imagined something you sort of feel it in your whole body when? Yeah,

Alison Martingano

42:45

yeah. So So correction there, that it's really your full body that you're feeling it with all the way down.

Edwin Rutsch

42:52

Yeah, so. And then it was some talk about the energy and and I was curious, I don't remember what it was. But I'm wondering, okay, where's the energy that you're talking about? So somebody was talking about energy? Where's the energy? Where do you see the energy so that we don't get too abstract, but you know, bring it into what's actually happening in the empathy circle? Because there is an energy, right, there's, like, I feel I get it, this is fun. This is enjoyable. And, and so there is that energy? There's sort of yeah, there's just very all kinds of different energies happening. Here.

Alison Martingano

43:32

Yeah. So you're thinking of how you were you can see the energy in the empathy circle, you're sort of speaking about how you can feel it. But maybe it's harder to visualize?

Edwin Rutsch

43:43

Yeah. And I'm seeing you move your hand. So there's, there's a level of energy to your hands, right. It's like, I tend to kind of speak with my hands too. And there's a, you know, put a lot of energy into it. And is it slow energy? Or is it you know, faster energy? So sort of just identifying, you know, if we're talking about energy, where's the energy with that you're talking whoever was I can't remember see where he was talking about energy. But where is that energy?

Alison Martingano

44:12

Yes, you're pointing out the that I'm moving my hands and you do the same thing. And and, you know, you can do that with with enthusiasm or less. And maybe that's the sort of visual marker of the energy in the conversation.

Edwin Rutsch

44:23

Yeah, fully heard.

Alison Martingano

44:30

Yeah, so I'm still really excited about this idea of energy. And I'm wondering, too, oh, I'm sorry. I speak to you, Edwin.

Edwin Rutsch

44:39

Yeah. He's really interested in a sense of energy.

Alison Martingano

44:45

Well, I was I was actually just gonna ask a question, and maybe you could follow up. Is that do empathy circles differ in their amount of empathy? So maybe if you don't show it visually, in one empathy circle, maybe you can compare like, two people have lower energies and Another and Hi. So I just wondered if you could speak to that.

Edwin Rutsch

45:03

So you're just curious about the levels of energy within different empathy circles and just serve a curiosity about that. And if I could speak to it.

Alison Martingano

45:13

Feel fully heard. Okay, I'll

Edwin Rutsch

45:15

speak back then. Yeah, the circles is like all over the place that it lot depends on what people bring to it. Like, sometimes people we don't even don't even have never seen before. I mean, they just share something really personal in the group. And it just creates this, you know, real intimacy in the group. And other times it's kind of more intellectual. And it's more abstract, and it has a different feeling. So every circle is just very different. Yeah, so you're,

Alison Martingano

45:46

you're answering my question there about the different empathy circles and their levels of energy and pointing out they are all very different. And that sometimes it can feel sort of more academic and abstract. And other times someone can share something really personal. And that changes the tone of it. Yeah,

Edwin Rutsch

46:02

yeah, has a sort of an intimacy level of intimacy. So I'm thinking, wow, there's sharing this, you know, these intimate dynamics that they're having in their family, or in their relationships with the group, people I never don't even know is I'm calling sometimes amazed that the depths of sharing.

Alison Martingano

46:20

So you're sharing your amazement at how, how much people share often so quickly with a group of strangers in the empathy circle setup.

Edwin Rutsch

46:30

And the feeling I've been getting recently has been a lot of gratitude, in the sense that, oh, I'm coming into a space where I'm being heard, my sense is that culture is getting more and more sort of conflicted, you know, more and more environments where people don't feel heard. So if you've come into an empathy circled, and they feel heard, like, haven't been heard for a long time, and there's a sense of sort of gratitude, and hey, this feels pretty good. And there's a sort of a gentleness that sort of, has been so I've just been noticing that recently.

Alison Martingano

47:03

Yeah, so you, you were talking about some of your observations of protecting more recent times that people have been feeling very great, a lot of gratitude. And you're wondering as to whether maybe that's because they're not feeling heard, perhaps as much in their in their rest of their lives. And so they they really bring this this wonderful, gracious feeling when they when they are being heard in empathy.

Edwin Rutsch

47:24

And I think that was one of your points. Previously, you'd mentioned the effort of somebody trying to listen to you that that effort has a lot of, of just salience or importance or appreciation for people that hey, you've made the effort. So yeah, that I think that's there's a appreciation in each other in being willing to listen, and then there's a feeling that comes up with with that.

Alison Martingano

47:54

Yeah, so you're pointing to the listening requires effort. And that's sort of talking about what we were talking about before regarding effort, that maybe that's really being shown in this process. And that's maybe why people are feeling the gratitude, because they're recognizing the efforts other people were putting,

Edwin Rutsch

48:11

yeah, but sometimes just not even effort in the sense if you're doing something, it's really fun. And you're getting sort of fed by it, like, Hey, I'm coming to the empathy circle, I'm gonna get heard, and it feels really good. It's sort of a joy. You're kind of it doesn't have the, like, Hey, this is work, we got to you know, you know, this is heavy, you got to really suffer to, you know, work at this. It's like, Hey, this is fun. I want to do it. I want to get supported i There's a nourish nourishment, nourishing quality to this.

Alison Martingano

48:41

Yeah. So you're, you're sort of reflecting back there that maybe it's not effortless. Sometimes we would construe it as like hard work and not enjoyable. But maybe sort of returning to the word energy about it's something more fun.

Edwin Rutsch

48:54

And you're sort of drawn to it. Like, I want to do this. Yeah.

Alison Martingano

48:58

Right. Right. So it's not something that you're laboring, laboring to do.

Edwin Rutsch

49:02

But for people who are new to it, there can be a lot of labor, because you got to really focus and listen, and they might not be used to that. So it kind of you're rewiring your your brain. And it's like, there's actually a can be painful because you have to sort of shift the way you think. But if you kind of get into that mode, and you've kind of rewired your brain, there's less effort because those neurons are just, you know, the pathways or maybe already highly developed.

Alison Martingano

49:32

Yeah, so you're sort of talking about how certain people do find the empathy circle setup, more strenuous, and these tend to be people who are new to it. That struggle, but then with with practice, and over time, this this becomes an RA perhaps automatic skill that you can do more easily because you're more practiced at it.

Edwin Rutsch

49:51

Yeah, yeah, I feel fully heard. I was just thinking, oh, where's your skepticism? It just kind of crossed my mind. overzealous skepticism.

Alison Martingano

50:03

And I can bring it

Edwin Rutsch

50:04

now if I feel fully heard.

Alison Martingano

50:08

I yeah, I'll speak to shanba. I'm probably gonna talk about that if what you said, Edwin, so if I love speaking to you about this, because it's really reflecting a lot of the issues that I'm thinking of, but in like a different way.

Shannon McIntyre

50:24

So Allison, you're starting out by saying, like, you'd like to respond to what Edwin was talking about, because it's kind of making you think about some of the same things that you've been working on, but in a different way. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Alison Martingano

50:37

So I, I, I talk about my theories like this difference in some types of effort, sometimes empathy, being more effortful. But I do struggle with that word effort for exactly the reasons that Edwin is pointing out when we think effort, we think, bad and strenuous. And that's not necessarily we're trying to get here something more along the lines of how practice something is, or, or how I'm struggling for words. But I'm thinking about the importance of words when we're trying to communicate, like what I mean here.

Shannon McIntyre

51:08

So you struggle with this idea of effort for exactly the reason that Edwin was pointing out that oftentimes, our associations to the word effort, or that it's like, hard or strenuous? And that's not exactly what you mean, it's like in that you're kind of trying to find the right words to describe what your what you do mean, when you say that? Yeah,

Alison Martingano

51:28

yeah, yeah, exactly. And I was also thinking about this idea of something becoming easier with practice. And obviously, psychology would tell us, you know, that's a thing. And things get more automatic as you practice them. And I'm thinking that in relation to empathy, and maybe it isn't, as I would initially conceptualizing it as certain types of empathy just being more difficult, but maybe for individual people, certain types get easier, the more you do them.

Shannon McIntyre

51:57

So you're you're you're integrating this idea of maybe the more you practice it, the easier it gets. And and but you're not like you're in certainly psychology would would. That's borne out in the research, but then you're wondering if maybe that differs between people that maybe for some people, it gets easier, but perhaps not for others.

Alison Martingano

52:16

Yeah, and I think one of the reasons empathy is perhaps so complex is that, you know, it's not one size fits all with with people. I was actually also wanting to sort of reflect back on bringing in the neuro stuff that we talked about right at the beginning, and I think everyone just touched on it as well. So a lot of that work, at least my understanding of it is working on this more sort of automatic, immediate emotional responses or neural responses to seeing someone hurting or, or something. And I'm sort of thinking about, sure, I've lost my train of thought, but I was sort of thinking how that feeds into it as sort of a measure of maybe that less effort for, or incredibly well practiced responses would be another way thinking of it.

Shannon McIntyre

53:00

Yeah, that maybe that you're saying empathy, perhaps isn't a one size fits all. And this actually might relate to some of the neuroscience research that was brought up in the beginning and this idea that there's some sort of automaticity or there's an automatic kind of response that we often have. And yeah, you're building on that, I think. Thank you so fully. Yeah, sure. Um, Edwin, will you be my listener? Okay, awesome. Um, let's see. So the, this is just a really thought provoking conversation. You know, yeah, I really appreciate kind of, I really appreciate being part of it. And I like the I really like the idea of thinking about effort and energy. And yeah, I'll just start with that. Yeah, you're

Edwin Rutsch

53:57

really appreciating this conversation and this topic of efforts and energy sounds like you want to explore that a bit.

Shannon McIntyre

54:06

Yeah, and I, I, because I work with, or I speak with people in training to be clinical psychologists and I, myself have been supervised and have been learning to do this. And I've, speaking of metaphors, kind of been advised to, you know, you don't have to take things in so quite so deeply. You know, think of being a therapist, kind of like hitting a beach ball back and forth, just very light and gentle. And I that's a metaphor that pops into my mind all the time, especially when I'm working really hard to try to get another person I think, why can't I just you know, do the beach ball thing. So I'll say yeah,

Edwin Rutsch

54:52

yeah. When when you're doing your, your therapeutic work that sends you take in what what's happening It sounds like deeply and infinite, maybe it's a bit of a burden. And you'd like somebody said, just be a beach ball, where you're just sort of tapping it sort of lightly back and back and forth. So doesn't have that deep impact.

Shannon McIntyre

55:13

Mm hmm. Yeah. And, you know, I don't have any hard and fast conclusions about this topic. But I just think it's like, it's fascinating. Also, to meet people who are now going through training and running into the same thing where they have certain people that they work with that they have formed such quick, deep and wonderful relationships with and then they have others with whom this kind of this way of empathizing bringing things in so deeply doesn't really work. And so, you know, what's the answer? I don't know. But I think I read I relate to what Allison was saying, and that I think there's, there's a lot of individual differences, or relational differences in how empathy ends up looking.

Edwin Rutsch

55:59

So there's other people that sort of have your stats, the same sort of dynamic happens with them, that they really connect with someone and they take in deeply what that person says. And but for that approach, that deep listening doesn't work for everyone that same dynamic, so it's very individualistic. And yeah, overlaps with what Allison was saying that it's different for different people the experience.

Shannon McIntyre

56:25

Yeah, that's right. They feel heard. And also, some people will really appreciate that, they'll feel that Oh, wow, this person's putting in so much energy and wow, you know, I feel so accepted and empathized with and other people, it will be lost on them that energy will not be there, the energy does not get received or in a way that you would intend. And it doesn't actually make a difference in terms of relationship building with certain people.

Edwin Rutsch

56:58

So it's certain people that taking it in deeply really creates a, you know, a deeper connection, whereas other people, it just doesn't really resonate, doesn't really build build that connection with them. It's just very different.

Shannon McIntyre

57:11

Yeah. So that's my thank you. I feel hurt. Yeah. Okay.

Edwin Rutsch

57:19

Because they'll speak back to you, then. Yeah, we started talking about the automatic responses. So you and I have talked quite a bit about the affective and cognitive, you know, topic. Whereas I really don't like that framing, I don't even sure where it really started. But I find that it's like it's I see it as sort of an impediment to an empathy movement, because it's just too complicated, too confusing for the average person.

Shannon McIntyre

57:52

You're referencing this dichotomy between cognitive empathy and affective empathy, and it just doesn't feel right to you. It just feels too complicated, especially for a first a layman or the average person doesn't feel helpful.

Edwin Rutsch

58:07

Yeah. So for me, the definitions is about creating, sort of understanding, creating a foundation for a movement of empathy right here, I think we want to spread empathy in the world that you can, you just have people learn to be more empathic with each other, hear each other, you know, connect more deeply with each other, understand each other, that just creates greater well being and just the world just feels better. For at least for me, it feels better. And how do we support that and saying, Hey, you got to have cognitive empathy or affective empathy, there's the average person is like, I don't know what you're talking about.

Shannon McIntyre

58:50

Right? So like for you, the main goal would be developing a typology of empathy that could be distilled down to a few key words that could be translatable or, or understandable to anyone. And so that could be easily disseminated. And having words like, Oh, you got to do more cognitive or affective empathy doesn't feel like a helpful way to break things down. Yeah, people could understand. And you have a

Edwin Rutsch

59:16

little concern, because both of you are coming from the therapeutic. I mean, from the academic world where this is, like, you know, is like so deeply ingrained that Oh, I get to be the skeptic gay. I'm so skeptical about that, that approach that it just seems. Yeah, I think it has a lot of problems.

Shannon McIntyre

59:38

Mm hmm. So you're a little bit worried about the the academic using a lack academic lens on this concept of empathy? Because then how do you translate it?

Edwin Rutsch

59:54

No, it was it both of you are coming from an academic point of view. And I'm saying hey, that's a pretty She's really skeptical about it. And oh, well, I we kind of offending you or something like that. So it's a bit like Alison say, she she appreciated, you know if I being open to, to, you know the skepticism. Yeah.

Shannon McIntyre

01:00:19

Okay. All right. So feeling, I don't know that I have it. I think like you're feeling skeptical of the skeptics?

Edwin Rutsch

01:00:27

No, I'm going to be attacking, criticizing active, affective empathy and cognitive empathy. And it seems to me, it's kind of like the religion of academia. Right? And you're both coming out of academia. So I'm afraid I'm going to be attacking your religion.

Shannon McIntyre

01:00:48

So you are really against this dichotomy between cognitive and affective empathy, and you kind of want to attack this whole premise, but you worry that that in so doing, you'll be kind of attacking more academic way of seeing things and this may be where me or and Alison are coming kind of coming from.

Edwin Rutsch

01:01:07

Right. So I appreciate Allison's skepticism that she she is so I feel more comfortable attacking it because Allison is out there trying to you know, find loopholes and criticize things. So I feel a kindred spirit. Okay, more space, it creates more space for just throwing out anything. Yeah.

Shannon McIntyre

01:01:34

So like knowing that there's another skeptic kind of gives you permission to also put on your like, skeptic kind of lenses. And so yeah, yeah, very

Edwin Rutsch

01:01:44

much so that that really hits it hits the nail on the head. Yeah, I feel so there's a whole that's I think it'll become a big topic affective you know, cognitive and what all that means. It's so central to the discussion, but I'll pause there. Yeah, recuperate.

Shannon McIntyre

01:02:03

came to an understanding and, and yeah, it feels like there's gonna be more discussion, maybe that dichotomy as we move forward. But yeah. I'm Allison. Awesome. Thanks. Huh. I don't know if I have too much to add at this point. Um, I? Ah, well, I find myself very intellectual right now. I don't know, maybe this is in response to what Edwin was saying, I'm sort of rebelling. Going into my head.

Alison Martingano

01:02:50

So you're, you're not sure how to respond? I think you're, you're still working through it in your head on but potentially, because Edwin has put out this criticism of academic thinking essentially got you thinking even more,

Shannon McIntyre

01:03:00

right? Yes, that captures it? Um, but I think it has, I think it has to do with this dichotomy between cognition and imagination. And like, I'm not really quite sure how yet I haven't fleshed that out. But the idea that all the energy is in the mind with cognition, and with imagination, it's more free, floating, more embodied, like I actually have to put myself in somebody else's imagine myself in somebody else's life in order to engage in imagination, whereas with cognition, I just kind of lodge I use my logic to think my way into another person's perspective. And yeah, that's kind of my mind, my mind has gone to that, that dichotomy.

Alison Martingano

01:03:52

So you're, you're bringing up another dichotomy that you think is more important, perhaps a more pertinent, which is between cognition and imagination, and I want to make sure I get this, right, because I've never heard this one before. So cognition is thinking your way into another person's perspective, sort of logically, whereas imagination would be this where I get lost, Could you Could you repeat that part?

Shannon McIntyre

01:04:19

Well, I mean, I think of it in terms of Mark Davis's breakdown, with fantasy proneness being one component of empathy. So I was talking, I always think about, like, engaging in a fantasy that you were literally another person, like, I'm literally, you know, whatever the case may be. Okay.

Alison Martingano

01:04:38

Yeah. So you're thinking of it as in Mark Davis's distinction between fantasy and perspective taking, which is really helped me so thank you. So sort of really feeling embodied into an entirely different character or person.

Shannon McIntyre

01:04:51

Yeah, that's good. I feel heard. Yeah. Thank you.

Alison Martingano

01:04:56

Um, yeah, I'm just an immediate response. language is so hard as soon as you said it a different way. I got it. So thank you. I don't know, talk to you. Okay. And so I sort of want to sort of immediately say thank you for for bringing the skepticism. I think that the only way we're going to ever improving on this, no clogged mire of embassies if we do speak up. So thank you.

Edwin Rutsch

01:05:24

So you're appreciating the skepticism? Because that's how we learn and grow? Yeah,

Alison Martingano

01:05:28

yeah. I would say, I come from almost the opposite worlds, where most of my colleagues hate the cognitive affective distinction also, but do so because they believe it's too simplistic distinction and not complex enough.

Edwin Rutsch

01:05:44

Oh, okay. So the committee that you come from, they don't like the cognitive effect abuse. It's like simplistic, and there's just not complicated enough.

Alison Martingano

01:05:54

Yeah. So it's really interesting to hear that. You know, that that distinct I feel like that distinction is going out. I get it's been very, very popular. But the way I see it going is it's, it's it's going out of vogue rapidly, I don't expect it to be used much more than a decade or so. But where it's going to go after? That seems like a complete mystery?

Edwin Rutsch

01:06:19

Yes, you're saying suddenly, you're sort of at the place where you can see the trends. And the trend is that that's going out of vogue, and something new is going to emerge? You don't know what that new is?

Alison Martingano

01:06:29

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I, I have colleagues who would prefer to go the route of, you know, 100 definitions of empathy and stop using the word empathy entirely, because it's just too vague, and then just just stick to stick to the ones that you specifically mean. And then I hear you everyone, which is the other side of the voice that saying that you want to find one sort of unifying definition that we can all get behind to sort of, and I think you have sort of a practical purpose there are driving that, that desire. So yeah, I

Edwin Rutsch

01:07:00

guess you're seeing different approaches. There's some it sounds like in your community, they want to really get nuanced and the different aspects and have maybe different names for them, versus me having kind of a broader term. But you see the the practicality aspect of

Alison Martingano

01:07:17

it. Yeah. And I think in reality, if we don't live in our ivory tower, as academics, the word empathy isn't going to go away like that, that's become much more popular word it so it's going to keep being said, so even as the academics, we decide not to use it anymore. That's not going to stop other people using it. And then you will just be left with this vacuum. Of

Edwin Rutsch

01:07:39

Yeah, yeah. So if the academics go down the route of not using the term and, you know, having very nuanced words for the experiences, it is, and then the rest of the community, lay people are going to still be using it, there's going to be this vacuum between these two terms between how the lay use it in the academics.

Alison Martingano

01:08:04

Yeah, absolutely. I feel like there's already a vacuum, but it may, it may just get worse.

Edwin Rutsch

01:08:10

So that it's already there, that vacuum may just keep expanding.

Alison Martingano

01:08:16

Thank you. I feel fully. Okay,

Edwin Rutsch

01:08:19

so yeah, maybe I'll, the I'll speak back to you, Elson. So the definition of empathy that I'm using is, you know, very built on the what Rogers is doing, you know, sensing into someone's experience, kind of in the broad in this broad sense. And so it's, it's, it's more the actual process of sensing into, you know, start there.

Alison Martingano

01:08:51

So you're you're describing to me that your working definition of empathy is based on Rogers, His work of sensing into someone's experience, and I'm writing that down. And then I think

Edwin Rutsch

01:09:03

you said that was the first Yeah, first. So right now I'm speaking, you know, I'm seeing what sort of arises in me. And that's sort of like a self empathy. I'm just seeing what sort of arises in me, I'm sensing into myself. And so I have an emergent mergency that's happening. And then I'm sharing it with you. And you're listening. You're very focused. And I can, you're reflecting what I'm what I'm saying. So you're sort of sensing into there's a process of sensing into by experience here.

Alison Martingano

01:09:35

Yeah. Okay. So you're describing first process of sort of self empathy of sensing or introspection, maybe looking inside of yourself, and feeling and describing your feelings and then I'm doing that as well. Also sensing into you. Yeah. as well.

Edwin Rutsch

01:09:55

Yeah, I see what you're doing is an empathy sensing into my my experience. So, I don't know how that would fit in the cognitive, you know, effectives that just that process that you're doing of sensing into my experience? I don't know, where would the cognitive? Where would the affective babies, it seems like it's all kind of mushed together.

Alison Martingano

01:10:20

Yeah. So you're sort of questioning within that, that idea of sensing into somebody where the cognitive and the affective empathy, where that lies in that motion.

Edwin Rutsch

01:10:30

Yeah. And where's the if I like the term imaginative empathy, that there is something where we can roleplay we can take on roles. Where I could, we could do an empathy circle, we each take on a role of a different character here in the circle, we're not ourselves that we're sensing into that, those roles. And I would call that imaginative empathy, that that's sort of the secondary responses, we can kind of add an imagination component, we can think ourselves into anything. And so I can consider that. Yeah, Oracle imaginative empathy.

Alison Martingano

01:11:09

So you serve also talking about this term, imaginative empathy, which you you appreciate, because it can describe how we can sense into people's roles that aren't necessarily then themselves. So you could roleplay a character and you could still sense. So I guess it's meta sensing into something that is, somebody is already also embodying something different I might be getting,

Edwin Rutsch

01:11:36

it's more that, like, when we do conflict, we do some practice conflict mediation, we can create a scenario where we're role playing a scenario in a work environment, like I can be the boss, you could be an employee, you know, there could be a family member, Shannon's a family member, and there's a conflict and we all come together. So we're role playing that situation, that's typical and mediation training, you do these role plays. So we have to imagine ourselves in those roles, and then act with whatever comes up out of those roles. And it's amazing how real life those roles playing can be. So that imagining into those roles is what I'm considering as sort of an imaginative empathy.

Alison Martingano

01:12:23

Okay, so you're clarifying here of what that imagining of empathy is. And it's imagining into a role, you sort of talking through how a lot of this comes from sort of mediation work in conflict resolution, where people will take on different roles and then talk through to their problems are embodying those roles, and how that can actually really reflect real life,

Edwin Rutsch

01:12:44

isn't it? Yeah, so those that's sort of the framework I use, and it has sort of a practicality to it. So I'm looking for a skeptical approach to that. Shannon's not skeptical. So I'll carry that counting on you to be really skeptical about that framing.

Alison Martingano

01:13:01

Right. So you're sort of explaining the question here, and you're looking for me to have a skeptical response.

Edwin Rutsch

01:13:07

Yeah, I feel heard.

Alison Martingano

01:13:11

I'll speak to you, Shannon. I'll probably respond to Edwin. And so I, I as soon as you were talking about the sensing into some I've written it down sensing into someone's perspective. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I I am, I was immediately thinking of that is sort of the the outcome outcomes, not the right word, that that is what you want to achieve. You want to achieve the ability to sense into someone. And I would think of cognitive and affective empathy as maybe the ways that get you there. So that's how I would see a connection there.

Shannon McIntyre

01:13:53

So, Alison, I hear you kind of zeroing in on this phrase that Edwin used, which was like sensing into someone else's perspective. And you were drawing a connection back to this dichotomy between cognitive and affective empathy by saying the cognitive and affective empathy are the avenues through which you get to sensing into somebody's experience. Yeah.

Alison Martingano

01:14:20

Yeah, that would be how I would see it. Although I've not given that much critical thought to that. It's just sort of that would be how I've always thought of it. And so I certainly don't have a powerful attachment to that idea. And I could be wrong, but I, I think of them as ways of helping you to sense into someone. So some people might rely on that more logical process, and other people might rely on that more imaginative. And so I'm thinking of them as different strategies people use in order to achieve that sense

Shannon McIntyre

01:14:54

that you've always kind of thought of it this way. So you're not too tied to it yet, but you're thinking that Maybe individual differences factor into this and that some people might need to use more of the cognitive or logical pathway to get to that sensing into experience where others might use draw more on their own emotional experience to get to it.

Alison Martingano

01:15:15

Yeah, exactly. I feel fully heard. Thank you, Jen.

Shannon McIntyre

01:15:18

Yeah. Um, I'll speak back to you. Um, Allison, if that's okay, um, I don't know, I feel very at home in this, this kind of discussion. And I'm actually used to parsing it out in terms of cognitive affective empathy. I don't, huh? Um, it's, it's difficult though, when we're, when we're speaking from an experience near place. I can't pinpoint a moment at time in time where I'm just in. I'm just using cognitive or just effective, like, I've tried, because I'm drawn to that literature. But it feels as though if I tried to freeze them any, you know, freeze frame any moment in time during the empathy process, there's none where just one is happening. Yeah.

Alison Martingano

01:16:14

So you're talking about feeling at home in this discussion, because this kind of effective distinction is something that you think a lot about you work with. And but I, maybe it's more of an academic distinction, because in practicality, you feel like you use multiple at the same time, and you're never using just solely one of these strategies I'm going to go for, in order to achieve that, that aim that I was talking about.

Shannon McIntyre

01:16:42

Yeah. And just now it popped into my mind, like, what would be the drawback of advocating for one or over the other, I think that could actually be kind of dangerous. Like, because I, I'm, again, draw, referencing a conversation I had in class. And that sup for some people, certain definitions of empathy makes sense. And maybe we'll get them to that feeling into state of mind where they are able to be there. For other people, those definitions make no sense at all. And so who am I to say, this is the definition we all have to use? And if you don't get it, like, you need to go see someone about increasing your empathic capacity. So yeah,

Alison Martingano

01:17:30

yeah. So you started off with with questioning, you know, is there a drawback to advocating, you know, one strategy to empathy over another. And and the the you referencing some an experience you had in your class with your students? The some of the when you're teaching some definitions of empathy, some students just it sort of resonates with them, they get that that makes sense. And with others, they don't. And so you're sort of thinking through, I guess, do we have the right to tell them that that one is the right one?

Shannon McIntyre

01:18:00

Yeah, I'm kind of wary of dictating too much somebody's experience of empathy, just because it feels like a very personal process. Yeah, yeah. So

Alison Martingano

01:18:12

you're, you're concerned or skeptical about the dictating a definition of empathy is it's such a personal experience to people.

Shannon McIntyre

01:18:22

Yeah, and yet, not having a definition comes with its own drawbacks, and probably more drawbacks than then does. Advocating for one solid kind of standard way of doing it. Yeah.

Alison Martingano

01:18:40

So you're sort of reflecting on the other side, which is that not having any definition and not getting any guidance on that leads to sort of the mess we're in now, and that may be even more problematic? Yeah,

Shannon McIntyre

01:18:51

I feel heard. Thank you. Yeah.

Alison Martingano

01:18:56

Yeah, I don't know. I'll speak to Edwin. Again, that's listening. Um, I don't have much to say I have I've really enjoyed hearing these different ideas. Um, I don't I sort of intuitively agree with Shannon, of what she said about feeling worried about dictating. But that's really the only response they have at the

Edwin Rutsch

01:19:20

moment. Yeah, you don't have a lot more coming up. And it's your sort of, kind of resonate with Shannon about dictating a definition of discomfort about that. That's me, I feel hurt. Okay. So do we want to sort of kind of close here and just see if we can get a summary or how's everyone felt like both were sort of talked out?

Shannon McIntyre

01:19:55

Maybe we could debrief and do you do a summary. Does that seem like a good next step?

Edwin Rutsch

01:20:01

And that was when, uh, okay, yeah. And so one of the things is, processes is Chen and I have been, you know, having these circles, we didn't take any notes. Because if you're just two people, it's hard to take notes. And we're looking at how do we get a summary. So we don't have kind of a real process worked out. This is, this is like the next stage here with, you know, it's all taking notes. So we got a lot of notes. I don't know how to synthesize it, or I don't know, I don't have any good process for it. So the next stage for sort of getting a summary. And we'll also have, you know, the transcripts to will be available.

Shannon McIntyre

01:20:41

Yeah. Well, definitely seemed like some new points came up in this session compared to and then some things we repeated. So might take a while going through the transcripts to hit on those key points. I'm thinking. I don't know that doing it right now is it's hard because I feel like I'm still processing a lot of it. Sorry, I think I cut you off. Awesome.

Alison Martingano

01:21:12

No, no, it's alright. It's just being the new person. So I'm unfamiliar, which ideas have sort of gone around before and which ones are new? And so I, at some point, I'd like to get a check to find that out.

Shannon McIntyre

01:21:27

Should we say right now, I mean, a little bit about Edwin wood, you know, maybe we've repeated or what, what continues to be a theme and what maybe is new?

Edwin Rutsch

01:21:37

Okay? Do you want to start? Like what what you're seeing?

Shannon McIntyre

01:21:43

Well, we've been playing, we've been talking about this, these dichotomies, and we've been in general moving towards something more unifying. So I think that we all kind of spoke to that, which was great. And this idea of feeling into is an experience near definition, that perhaps people outside the field can grasp easily, and maybe can be tailored. It's broad enough so that people, regardless of their individual differences, might be able to get on board with it and find a home for it, or make it their own type of thing.

Edwin Rutsch

01:22:21

Yeah, I think the, the framework of affective and cognitive empathy is we've talked a lot about that. And I've, you know, I've been sort of advocating for sort of a different view of it. And we've had a lot of discussions, you know, back and forth, I think exploring it as well, as I've tried to bring up the the what we're talking about, where is it happening right now, right in here now. So first saying effective empathy. Where do you see the effect of empathy happening in the relationship? Or the discussion right now? Or where do you see cognitive empathy? Or where do you see both? Or where do you see parts of each in in? So I've been trying to? Yeah, so so the point point, get get to that experience near? I think you're calling it for the expert, naming the experiential. So yeah, so that's kind of what's coming up for me. And there's also you know, having another voice and other perspective, I really enjoy it just adds to the dynamics. That's why I think the empathy circle itself with for people, it's not only good, you know, you get multiple points of view, which really enriches the whole discussion I find to

Alison Martingano

01:23:42

thanks for sharing, guys.

Shannon McIntyre

01:23:44

Yeah. Thanks for joining. It was really great.

Edwin Rutsch

01:23:49

Yeah, so what's the what's the next time? Or how does? How's the schedules? Look, we've been meeting every two weeks on this at this time. And Shannon Scott, I think you'll have more time you're saying in the new year, something yet, like finals or something now,

Shannon McIntyre

01:24:08

even two weeks from now is going to be a different world because I'll be on the other side of things.

Alison Martingano

01:24:15

I can do two weeks from now, after that. I'm not I'm not I don't plan too far in advance because I have interviews coming up and things but I pray pretty solidly Yes, for two weeks from now. Something crazy comes up. Awesome.

Edwin Rutsch

01:24:30

Great. Okay, well, I will post this to YouTube. I'll run through the transcriptions and add it to the website so you can or if you've seen the website, I'll just let me just quickly share that just as a reference is and we can go over this in detail. It's maybe in after a couple, several minutes. meetings, you know, several empathy circles kind of review this. So go to empathy definitions.com I hadn't thought of maybe, maybe defining empathy would be a better name and love to get your feedback on that. So you can I put together this page on the block Sam busy. So those are different topics to talk about what are the blocks to empathy, or there's also kind of development, just some different links, there's the team, each have our own pages, different typologies when, you know, putting together just starting to list some of the typologies the whole sin discussion, you know, Allison, you'd say we're interested in that. And these are discussions, people have been talking about that sin books, discussions. There's a whole there's a whole big discussion in the evangelical community about about since I've been sort of tracking

Alison Martingano

01:25:59

I managed to miss this completely until you put this on my radar. And I had no idea this was out there. Yeah.

Edwin Rutsch

01:26:06

Yeah, it's sort of a, you know, a closed community. So it's not kind of like out real public. I'm crashing the party, their party. So and having an evangelical background, myself and the past, you know, growing up, kind of really resonate with the dynamics, and then the meetings you can go through and I'll post it here, the post meeting here. So it's just where you can find and, you know, just kind of review the site to, to, you know, she can and I think I think Shannon has permission, so you'll be able to go in and, you know, add to the site or edit if you want Oh, great. Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks. See you next time.

Shannon McIntyre

01:26:53

On Yeah, take care.

Unknown Speaker

01:26:56

Bye bye.

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