Writing something well mental health within India. Real stories, real conversation, real talk
Hi, everyone and welcome to another edition of the health collective talks. I'm Amrita Tripathi and really excited to welcome today, two incredible speakers, folks with lived experience, many of you know them from their work, and it gives me great pleasure to introduce them to you. We have joining us if I can work this out, Arjun Gupta, counseling psychologist from Hisar, in Haryana, Arjun has completed his master's in psychology. This is back in 2022. And he's written two books on mental health is the focus on men's men. You're also the founder of mine tuition. So you will make friends and look at psychological aspects of that as well. So really, really happy to have you here. Thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you for having me.
Okay, let me try and get on. Yes, we did it. Let us introduce or reintroduce rather Shubhrata Prakash, who's an officer with the Indian Revenue Service, the author of the book, the D word, a survivor's guide to depression, which came out several years ago and actually was one of the first books with an Indian lens when it comes to live experience. So huge congratulations again, on that you've been a really vociferous mental health advocate, a contributor to the health collective and your stories of dealing with depression. And you talk a lot about living with ADHD and been a sounding board for a lot of people.
Yeah, I do, Amrita. Thank you, thank you so much for having me on the show today. And I'm really happy, as I have, I keep saying is much easier than talking about my job. So although although this is more of a personal challenge than the other thing.
Of course, you know, and I do, I do want to tell those of you who watch this later, you know, on the health Collective, we have collected about 500 stories of mental health within India lens, you know, especially centering around lived experience, which is so important. Shubhrata is one of those people who keeps telling us she doesn't think or she wishes for the day, it wasn't, you know, you didn't need courage, or you didn't need to be brave to talk about these things. But let's be honest, it is still India, it is 2023, even though this month is now also mental health awareness month, which is not just October, but this is also one of the months being celebrated. We know these are conversations that needs to happen everyday, not just for these kinds of symbolic moments. Let me ask you a little bit about what you want to share about your own mental health journey at this point. I know you've had very many conversations, and you've been in the media a lot, also raising awareness. What would you like to share about your own journey at this stage?
For for anyone who doesn't know me, and who's watching me speak for the first time, I had a long and severe episodes of depression, which was from 2012 to 2016, diagnosed in 2011. But you know, it was it was kind of up and down, I had depression then I didn't, then I had this longest episode. And then I got better. But then I had another mild to moderate episode last year, which I'm just coming out of right now. And it's really difficult to point pinpoint exactly where it all started. But probably it started postpartum, even longer. Back then 2011. But since I wasn't diagnosed, so I wouldn't like to go there. And I also have anxiety disorder. I live with it every day. I don't know where the next trigger for an anxiety attack or a panic attack is going to come from. And I also have been diagnosed with ADHD a couple of years back, adult ADHD, although it was suspected for some time, but a formal diagnosis came about a couple of years back. And I'm right now at that stage of my life where having had repeated episodes of depression, and living with ADHD, ADHD actually is not a mental illness for those who don't know, but it's a neurodevelopmental disorder. It's a different kind, vying kind of wiring of the brain. So that's something that you know, that's, that's just there. It's different, you know, the way of fighting of the brain, and also anxiety. So with all of these conditions, sometimes it's really difficult for me to distinguish one from the other. And that's when I've decided to, you know, not go into the, let's say the labels and just stick with whatever symptoms I have addressed them at the point that that's happening. And so far, so good. I've been managing that time between 2012 and 2016. Those four years, I was not functional for most parts of it. I mean, it was it was really difficult. But lessons learned. And now and with all the therapy that I did, this time when I had this episode, my latest one last year, which kind of I'm just coming out of now, that was a little easier to spot. And I was functional to all of it. In fact, I was handling two, three different charges at work. Even now I'm handling three different charges at work at a different workplace. So this has been my journey so far. And I wrote the book, the T word, which Amrita just spoke about, which is a little bit of which has a little bit of information about depression, and also a little bit of description of my own journey. Of course, it was published in 2016. So the book and my journey, documents like two there. And then after I have just been talking about mental health, my the, I've been advocating quite passionately for awareness as well as a better treatments for people, and also getting some community support for it. And I'm hoping that as I said, it, there will be a day when one wouldn't have to be brave to talk about mental health, or talk about their own lived experiences.
Thank you so much for that. schibetta. And, you know, Arjun one of the things, what I really appreciate for both of you is that one that courage, of course, that has not yet come with, it's not, it doesn't require one to be brave, you both have been so courageous and sharing your stories that it actually allows other people that window, right, it helps in that kind of saves. For other people who also share it helps other people know they're not alone. And I know both of you that benefit from it. Known as well, you know, you will not be alone in your journey. I do want to ask you about your what you want to share the state version when it comes to your own mental health journey. And of course, anyone watching me do want to tell you that there are resources and help available in case you're feeling triggered. In case this makes you in distress, please feel free to come back to this or just let us know Argent overview on a little bit of your journey.
Yeah, so hi, everyone. My journey with clinical depression started in 2015, I think around eight years now. And I was just a 17 year old boy at the time. And I was just so certain that I cannot be depressed because depression happens to be people that I genuinely did not cooperate with any of my doctors or therapists for 18 months. And damn did I suffer because of that. So that continued till around 2017, when I ended up actually accepting that this is something that's normal, it's an illness, and it's not something that's happening to me because I'm weak, or I deserve to go through this. And I think ever since then I have been more mindful about what emotions are going through and the support systems that I have around me. So those episodes, you know, as Senator just mentioned, they'd come back every now and then they come back with a lot of force. But now, at this age, I think I have better support systems and better management systems to understand that what's happening to me is normal. It's not something that's my fault. And if I reach out to the right people, then I can actually get through this without any repercussions or any serious harm. So I think that's helped me a lot. I think that's where I am right now. just thankful that I have the right people around me right now. And hoping that we won't need them for a lot more in the future.
Thank you so much for sharing that agenda. And you know, you you're a writer yourself, you decided to go and study psychology, you've got your master's degrees, you're practicing as a psychologist. So I do think it's really critical to also highlight that, you know, from all that I've been following your journey and Jupiter's journey, you both are using social media really well. I do think it's really commendable that neither of us actually sugarcoating or putting that kind of positive filter wherever the toxic positivity we talk about you both are very honest, that there are ups and downs. This is a journey. Arjun, let me ask you a little bit about what are some of the caveats, though, when you have people who are following you on social and of course, they think that they know you, but what are some of the caveats we should be aware of, in terms of you know, Insta psychology or pop psychology that comes across on social, anything you'd want to flag?
I think the most important thing is that the experiences that I share are my own and a lot of different people will have very different experiences than mine. So the things that I'm sharing things that helped me they helped me because well the work not because they are going to help everyone. So I keep it a point to make sure that I add this caveat to all my content about what helped me that this helped me this might not work for you. This did not work for me. might work for you. And with a lot of psychologists as they are right now, I think there's a lot of wisdom that they end up spouting, instead of, you know, actual evidence based treatment. So I just suggest that be mindful of what you're consuming, be mindful that people are coming from their own experiences. And it's not necessarily that one thing will fix everyone. So do what works for you, and be open to different possibilities as well.
That's fair, and sure better for you in terms of what you have seen on social from what you've shared, and what do you think people should keep in mind.
One of the things that I always keep harping on is that let us just separate, you know, clinical depression, which is like an illness, it's mental illness, from a normal kind of side of sadness, it's not the garden variety of sadness, anyone can feel sad on a day. And I believe I see a lot of in fact, I've started terming it the motivation industry, I see a lot of these motivational codes and speakers and all kinds of posts about how people can, you know, get up and walk and feel nature and all of that stuff. And that will help you, of course, it will help but you know, lack of access to nature, or lack of spirituality, etc, that's or you know, just just someone not being able to see something positive, that's not Depression, depression is a clinical illness. And it has more to do with just feelings of sadness, this is just a lot more. So that's something I always keep telling people that let's be very clear about what is sadness. And you know, what can get a person who's probably just feeling down on a particular day to get up and move, and how someone with depression, how they can manage their illness is two completely different things. And the second thing, of course, that that's something that Arjun also mentioned that, you know, what worked for me may not work for anyone else. And we need to be very careful when dispensing advice, even during, even if it's just peer support, and peer support and treatment, these again, also have to be very clearly defined, and boundaries have to be made. So that people are dishing out general advice. That's, that's, that's not actual therapy, or counseling, or even any kind of treatment. So these are two things. I always keep mentioning in all my posts, and of course, the fact that depression is an illness, you know, it's it's, it has bio, psychosocial origins, and you really cannot figure out exactly who will get it, why they will get it, what will be the trigger, and therefore, we don't know what kind of treatment is actually going to work for him. But we keep trying.
And that is the key message, I think we keep trying know that help is available. And of course, we have spoken in the past about, you know, resources and privilege and access. But that's something both of you are very, very vocal about. So about that, can you share with us some of the most common issues people come to you for they've heard you share your stories, you've helped open up that space for other people, what are some of the things that are coming up in everyday conversations, while of course, keeping them anonymous at but in terms of overarching themes.
Um, the first thing that always, you know, I come across is the stigma, there is very little understanding of mental illnesses, even something as common as anxiety disorder, or major depressive disorder. And that stigma, you know, that that lack of understanding kind of really makes people very, feel very ashamed of whatever they are going through. So number one, they find it very difficult to accept or to even acknowledge that we may be having depression or anxiety disorder. So that's something that really, you know, a lot of people come to me, they tell me that this is what I'm feeling, do you think this is depression, and then again, I'm very careful to tell them that look, I'm not a professional, I cannot diagnose you. But whatever you're saying seems like it might be depression. So please do go and consult a psychiatrist or a psychologist. And then that's the next part of it, that, you know, the stigma kind of keeps people from going out and seeing a psychiatrist or a psychologist. And that is why even though a lot of people speak to me, in private, they would kind of sometimes not even acknowledge that they know me, and I see a lot of work that people do on different aspects of, you know, different social causes, finding space, in the common areas of whether it's work or family, etc. But not so much mental health because I do a lot of work and I want I do this work just to help people, but even people who come to me, they are very careful that nobody should get to know that they're talking to me, and those things are still there. You will be surprised to know this, but it's there. Although I always have an open door policy. Please come in, please come and have a cup of coffee. And for some time, I had thought that I could, you know, just put up a board outside my room, that office from that this is a safe space for mental health conversations. But then a couple of people who come to me said, please don't do it. Because, you know, then we won't be able to come to you, because somebody will know that we are coming to you for this. So that is the kind of stigma that exists. One of my colleagues told me that, you know, she had to set up a separate Amazon account to order my book. And I think that's the biggest problem, the biggest challenge, that's the stigma that people you know, just have to hide it. And that's another message that I keep giving out that it's just okay to not be okay. It's an illness, it can happen to anyone, no one should have to feel ashamed if they have anxiety disorder, or depression.
You know, Arjun, I saw you nodding, when cerato was talking about some of this the way people react to even asking for help reaching out, they don't want to be nearby Association links sometimes, to these topics. But you know, I also do find, it's important for us to tell people that, you know, it's each of us that can tackle the stigma, right? It's one thing to have these conversations, but how are we in our everyday lives? How are we the people around us? You have experience with trained now, as a psychologist? What are some of the things that you noticed? Are you finding that there's a generational difference are younger people is it easier for them to come up?
So my, my experiences have been very different than the two cities that I'm in. So in Hisar, where I am right now, it's a tier three city in Haryana, basically, the heartland of Haryana. So there's a lot of stigma still, here about talking to psychologists visiting a psychologist, I've lost some friends, because I'm a psychologist. So as I was mentioning that people don't want to associate associate with you because of what you do. So that is something that happens here. And, and goes around where I work. Most of the time there, people are more accepting of being a psychologist and talking to psychologists, I have had people actually reach out to me and tell me the issues that they've been facing. And they say that they want therapy, but they don't know where to go for it. And they don't know how to access it. So I think it is still an ABA phenomena about phenomena, the acceptance of therapy is still located mostly in metro or tier one cities, there is still a lot of stigma attached to, you know, going to a therapist, especially among young men, even more so about going to a therapist. So what I have to do is I have to go to them, the students that I work with, I go to them and talk to them about what they're going through. And that's when they are more comfortable in opening. So yeah, I think stigma is a huge burden, or a huge barrier to mental health care.
And when you're talking to these sort of younger, younger people, especially younger men, do you ever come at this subject sort of sideways? Is it often relationship related stress, anxiety, depression, family pressure? What are some of the bigger, bigger picture issues that come up, when you're able to strike up that conversation?
It almost always starts with relationship issues. So they feel like they're not heard enough in the relationships, they feel like they're not a part of the relationship there are, there's just an add on. And it seems like the other person is taking up all the space, and they don't know how to you know, establish those boundaries, especially in the emotional space when it comes to a relationship. But when you go deeper into it, it's also a lot of anxiety about career about, you know, the financial responsibilities that they'll have to take in the future. So they know that they are expected to be the primary breadwinner of their family. There's a lot of anxiety that comes from that, will I be good enough for my parents, will I be good enough for the people around me. And most of the time, they keep it in because they have to, they don't have anyone to talk to they're afraid of being ridiculed about for thinking about this stuff. And those conversations are always tough, but I feel like they're worth having. They're always had in the side corner, because people don't want to, you know, come up straight to you and say that we want to talk about what we're doing. They take you out there want to have a coffee, and then they want to talk about it. So I think, as I was saying if it needs to be coated, just to put on a show for the other people that it's not that serious, but what's going on in people's head is usually a lot more serious than that.
Yeah, that is so true. That is so true. I mean, what's going on is often so serious that it's really worth all that extra effort to kind of bridge that gap easier for each other. So let me ask you as we wind this down for the moment, and I'm hoping we you know, do a few more chats as this year progresses hopefully in person, maybe with our pets just to lighten the mood. Let me ask you Argent person into beta, one myth or misconception you'd like to bust and also one thing you're hoping that together collectively we can change whether it's tackling that stigma or setting up peer support groups, whatever you like. One myth and one thing you will machines get better you can.
Go ahead, I just found out.
So I think one of the main things that young men face the issue with is they feel like therapy is portrayed as some sort of, you know, fix all for them. So they feel like they'll go to therapy, and suddenly every problem of this will be solved. But therapy is a huge process and to people who are in therapy have to take on actions on themselves as well. And you have to take time to find the right therapist as well. So it's, as we have been talking about, it's a journey that you have to go through, you won't find the perfect therapist on the first row. And you won't find the quick fix solution, either you will have to put in the effort, you'd have to put in the hours. But eventually it will be worth it. And if I had to change one thing, I will change the number of psychologists in tier three cities in India, because I could use some support over here. And
that is, that is a really good one genuine one, I hope the right people are listening will make sure they are.
Okay, so the biggest myth that I want to address here and challenge that as well, is that depression is a choice. It's just not, it's not sadness, you know, it's not that someone is very sad. And then they don't want to get out of bed in the state. But it's an illness, it has so much to do with changes in your brain, it has so much to do with, you know, and the brain controls the entire body. So people somehow seem to think that all our behavior, all our thoughts are somehow divorced from our brain, which is not true. The brain is the master of all. So if something is wrong with our thoughts and behavior, naturally, something has happened in the brain. Now as of now, of course, we don't know exactly what happens. Studies are going on. I don't know how much we'll get to see on that and our lifestyle lifetimes, maybe we will, but this is a big, big myth. People just think that it's a choice it's not a choice. And I think this choice theory probably is something that drives that stigma quite a bit. And one thing that if if I had the chance I would like to change is get people to know about this get people to acknowledge this because what happens is the moment you talk about mental health no one wants to talk about it. Nobody even wants to I mean you can real we keep having these conversations. I keep writing articles we we keep putting up blog posts, no one reads those because nobody wants to touch mental health even with a bargepole. That's how bad it is. Because if people could read there's so much of information about how depression is not a choice and people are just not open to reading about it because and I also get this joining a little bit of the peer support that someone feels low someone may actually have depression of course I cannot say that for sure because I cannot you know diagnose but I feel that they have depression and then I tell them and they talk to me and then you know they get better for some time maybe the symptoms go away after a while and they they kind of look down on me that okay, I got better that was nothing cochinita and then I know I feel bad when I when this happens not for myself but for them because having seen depressions so close up I know it's going to come again we all know that anyone who has at once very likely chances they will get it again. And this kind of attitude that okay, go to it was nothing I got worried. I'm so brave. That's that's not the way it is. You know the strength? Yeah.
Because you want to be like it's done. It's over. I will disagree with you on on one thing respectfully. People are eating, I will tell you that people have written to me, but you've written on our site, they will tell us a year later. So there's no way I can use this in our analytics and are successful whenever people come back much later to say and usually you're right. It's usually when they come through what they had to come through or they'll come quietly and say like, you know, it's never open display of love and affection. But it's more like someone who's going through something I sent them that article or that book or that piece so I want you to keep hot I think that you know you shouldn't tweet. So I've also show you that I've seen people telling you it makes a difference. And agile similarly for you. I know it's It must feel very lonely. You know, it's amazing that you are in Hisar you're practicing in Haryana we talk a lot about the you know, access to resources and help and you're walking that talk. So please feel free to reach out anytime, you know through the health collective tribe and should have tackled it a few years ago. Through the community we have your back anything we can do to support you. You both are doing an incredible job. So thank you. Thanks so much
as just as just keep rehearing what you just said over and over again.
You Yes, absolutely we do this again though in person will come to you Don't worry. much it is. It's not easy. And I think again, for anyone who watches this later on, we'll clip out some of these clips, we'll put the quotes up. Just know that there are other people going through very similar experiences. You're not alone. It sometimes feels like you're in your own silo and that nobody else understands, but other people are going through very similar struggles. So please know that help is available. Thank you both so much to Brandon Argent for taking our time and thank you for what you do. Thank you
