when I first thought my Well, this whole journey came as a result of being broke, when I was working at Rogers, I was probably getting paid just shy of 30 grand into 28, grand, something like that. And I was always contracting as well, sort of post 2008 stuff wasn't never stable. At the time, it was frustrating and never really felt stable. And, you know, jobs job could have stopped at any point. And it did at times. And, you know, had to muck around with that actually, on reflection. Now, I was really grateful for that, those kind of conditions, because it was one of the things that kind of prompted me to set up my own my own business. And with my first year of running my own business, I kind of you know, my contract didn't get renewed when I was at RSA HP, after about a postdoc play there. But I've been a bit years, forced me into, I'd already started my own business. And in my mind, I didn't really want to do an architecture practice, I had this kind of, you know, this nebulous, creative practice that was going to do I don't know, stage design and graphics and whatever sort of idealized idea I had. And I was also a kind of a musician as well, where and I was in a band, and I was very, I was I said to myself, if if the music can make any kind of money for me to live off it, that's it, I'm out of architecture, the music kind of came to a natural completion, and I set up my own my own architecture business in the first first year, was pretty rough. And I seem to remember the first year, the second year, it wasn't much more than 10 grand or 11, grand. And it was just the most brutal experience, my relationship went, I had to, you know, I've got myself into into debt and had to borrow bits of money and take loans out and all this and it was just it, I was so upset. By the whole experience. I've just, you know, spent all that time at university, which is very difficult, graduated into a career that I that I didn't feel like I fit in and wasn't happy in it. And there was no people. No, I like talking to people. And I was suddenly in this kind of profession where you're spending eight hours a day in front of a CAD drawing and didn't really understand how my drawings related to something bigger. And it was just like, I can't This can't be it. And then I think at the beginning 25 grand seemed like a lot of money when you're a student. And then you suddenly realize how quickly it dissipates in London. And you're like, Oh my God, and you kind of look it and also I remember my brother worked in works in finance. And I remember having a conversation with him, and I told him how much I know In the first year, I was like, Yeah, this sort of 10 grand or whatever. And he just looked at me and he was like, Are you serious? That's like a monthly wage for, for our slot. That's, that's insane. And in the end, he was telling me about how much you know, university graduates would get paid in at UBS, for example. And they'd be walking into a 45 50,000 and above salary at the age of 21. And I was just like, what the like, they're no smarter than than us like what decision have a Why did nobody tell me this? Why was I like how like, and it was kind of like a guilt or shame, a sort of frustration, anger resentment at the world and then kind of like, how could I have been so stupid? How did I go for 10 years and not and not like be aware of this even though there was tutors and people who would tell you in a kind of a kind of try and make you brace the discomfort of it by saying you never been earning money much money as an architect, you don't do this for the you don't do this for the money, you do it for the love of that mentality doesn't hold up. Like, I don't care, I don't care. You don't you don't put your lifestyle and your well being at risk to do some for a hobby, basically, I don't know. It's just it's not it's not sustainable. It's really unhealthy cult like, mentality to be sacrificing your life and relationships for the greater good of architecture while no nonsense and also you don't produce better architecture as a result of it. But this, this whole experience of really rocked me to my core. And no, and I was looking for a way out of the industry. And I was very fortunate to meet a business mentor, who I ended up hiring. And I remember at the time, I you know, his fees were just, they were mind. bendingly expensive, I just couldn't fathom them. I just bought, I just wanted to learn, I just wanted to learn. And he sent me a little he said, Okay, look, if you can get together, I think at the time, it was like five grand, if you can get to five, you can bring five grand, I'll do a few months work with you. I was like five grand, and I was earning 10. US that I was I was like, I've got to figure this out. And he gave me six months. And I just went into I mean, that was the first experience I had of having like a financial focus and a target. And I was like, Okay, well, if I win this, this, this, and this projects, and if I go and speak to this, this and this person, and I can do that, very quickly, a raise the finance, yeah. And then I spent it all on this business consultant. But relatively quickly, I started to make a turn around in my, in my own business, he just opened my mind up, I ended up working, you know, I still medication and work with him today. And sometimes we you know, he works with some of our clients or Business of Architecture, but it was just revolutionary. And then I ended up working with him for a year and raised more money to be able to do that. Those kinds of financial goals really gave me an incentive. And also, he helped me identify skill sets that I was good at, and talking and communicating with people. And he was like, you know, this being with people and communicate, and that's a very good business skill. One of the best business skills you can have, and I was like, Really, I thought it was just that was party time. And it wasn't, it wasn't valuable skills, and it was something in architecture, sometimes, you know, you're kind of criticized for being like, Oh, he's just a good talker. And it's, it's not, you know, anyway, and that was very good. Just of having somebody like an independent outside, I helped me evaluate where my career strengths were, what was what was good. And he taught me how to negotiate, like face to face selling spent months and months and months, like training and then hundreds if not 1000s of different phone calls and things like that learning face to face negotiations when I learned negotiation and sales, then my brain just went off so much as possible here. Wow. Okay, that's, that's extraordinary. I've had like a previous sales experience being a Chugga if you like on the on the streets, and how to kind of naturally gravitated towards that but always, always felt like it was a it was a kind of shameful thing to be doing. But again, kind of realizing actually that that being able to be with people and lead people and again at the same time I did like seven years worth of leadership training and personal development and learn how to manage people and To be with people, again, I wasn't intending on being a consultant, this was all for my own benefit. And it came to a point where the podcasts really started taking up and no. And again, the podcast started as a result of me wanting to know, how are architects making money in their business? They start talking about finance, lead, tell me what what are you doing? How are you negotiating? How are you selling? How are you marketing. And so that whole process was really insightful. So I'm very grateful for the experience of being broke, because it was very humbling. And it was at that time as well was what I needed to kind of just relinquish a lot of entitlements and, and to grow up. And so there was a lot of, you know, it was very painful. And it made a lot of disruption in my personal life. And there was a lot of shame involved in it. But I reflect back on it. Now, my business mentor told me this, he said, he said, you will look back on these times with a great fondness because it really shaped you. Yeah, and so and so anybody knows going for that kind of financial difficulty time that there is like a silver lining out of it, because it can really, you know, it can wake you up, and and take responsibility for your own financial future. Because the RMA is not going to save us, the IRB is not going to save us University is not going to save us, we've we're kind of here to take a level of responsibility for our for ourselves, we've got to put our own oxygen mask on first, once we do that, and we're able to help other people much more effectively.