The future of architecture is about high performance buildings that are also beautiful. Hello and welcome to the Business of Architecture.
I am your host, Ryan Willard and in today's episode I have the great pleasure of speaking with William or Bill Ledi FA, who was a founding principal of the San Francisco based Ledi Mater, Stacy architects or LM S A, the 2017, recipient of the National American Institutes, architects firm award. So for over three decades, Ledi has been a national leader in the design of environments that promote social justice and advance urgent climate action. l MSA has received over 175 regional, national and international design awards, and has been recognized by numerous organizations including the American Institute of Architects, the French Institute of Architects, the Norwegian association of architects, the US Department of Energy, the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art, and the National Building Museum. The firm is one of only two in the nation to receive 12 Or more national AIA committee on the environment top 10 Green Project Awards and the institute's highest award for integrated design excellence. So Bill has lectured widely and has served as the visiting professor at the Southern California Institute of Architecture and the California College of the Arts. He has also been a visiting professor at the University of California, Berkeley at the piatra Bush led distinguished visiting professor at the University of Oregon, as well as many other awards and chairs. Their firm has recently released a new book practice with purpose or guide to mission driven design, which was published this year. And we talked about that in the podcast. Alongside looking in depth at the role of the Business of Architecture, and the importance of becoming a mission driven organization. We talked about this idea of relevance and resilience. And we talk about how do we prepare for an uncertain future. So this is a really powerful podcast. We have lots of really deep insights from Bill. So sit back, relax and enjoy Bill Leddy. This episode is sponsored by Smart practice, business of architectures, flagship program to help you structure your firm for freedom, fulfillment, and financial profit. If you want access for our free training on how to do this, please visit smart practice method.com. Or if you want to speak directly to one of our advisors about how he might be able to help you please follow the link in the information. William, Welcome to the Business of Architecture. How are you?
I'm doing great, thank you. How are you in northern England?
I'm very well thank you. I'm having a here in this hotel room rose looking forward to I'm about to go to a monastery next week. Buddhist monastery up here so I'm preparing and slowing down. So you are one of the founding partners of Ledi made him and Stacey based in the in the West Coast. You've got an extraordinary portfolio of work, very diverse arts, education, public engagement, large scale commercial projects, lots of education, multi residential projects, a very well established portfolio of design work, you're you yourself as well, our fellow at the at the AIA, you've recently published a book, The the purpose of practice, which we'll kind of we'll we'll talk a little bit about as we go along. But let's just start with the with your career, and the beginnings of LMS How did how did that start?
Well, Richard, Stacy and Marcia made him and I have been practicing together since the early 1980s. And so we've kind of grown up together as as, as architects, Marsha and I are also partners in life. And, and we so early in our careers, I think we were we published an earlier book called constructed reality in the late 90s. That was about our interest in those days of connecting through tectonics and craft connecting buildings to their place. And you know, as we matured as architects we we were, we reformed reformulated our firm and in 2000 at as Letty made him, say the architects and we kind of decided that, at that point we'd had, we'd had a taste of a few projects with nonprofit mission driven organizations. And we just thought that was an amazing way to spend our careers that it was taking, taking profit out of the equation to a certain extent, injecting some some serious economic constraints. But it, it, it sort of uplifted the entire process of design to something that was more directly engaged with improving people's lives. And I mean, I think if you if you talk to any, any architects, I don't care who they are, I think you'll ask them why they became an architect. And now some of them might say, to bid to build beautiful sculptures, but I think most of them will say something along the lines of to make a better world. And, and I think this is what we decided to do in 2000, we basically stopped working for, for profit developers, and pretty much stopped doing single family homes, although there are a few that have have happened since then. And really focused on working almost exclusively with with nonprofit organizations, housing for the formerly homeless, and for the disabled veterans and people, people that need that sort. And it also schools where, you know, we feel very strongly that, you know, education is a place that needs, inspiring environments that connect students not only to each other, but prepare them for a rapidly changing world. And, and that means we think, connecting making in educational environments that really connect students every day, to the natural world and to each other. So. So that variety of work has been intentional. And really, the design of our practice has been intentional. And this is why we wrote practice with purpose. Because we, I think too often I think in our profession, we, we, we get on a track, and we get kind of stuck. And we don't really know how that unstuck our end stick ourselves from from that track. We might be doing a certain kind of, of project type that we don't particularly appreciate, but it pays the bills, while cetera, et cetera. And I think this is this, this book, and our practice is really trying to make a case for you know, okay, decide what your values are, decide what you what excites you about making, making environments in the world, and then be intentional about designing a practice around that. I always tell him, I always tell students that, you know, if you're a designer, then you should be very mindful about designing the most important valuable thing that you own, which is your life and design. You should be you should be decide what, what makes you what brings you joy, decide what gives you meaning, and do that and fight figure out a way to do that. And that's more or less what we've tried to do in our practice.
That's it's a very noble aspiration to do this to kind of you know, orientate a business, where you're really serving the wider audience for architecture, as opposed to always, you know, the profit driven clients, for example, if I put my business hat on, my first concern would be Oh, if you're, if you're if you're working with with clients, who's who aren't making profit, what's going to happen to your profit? And what did you have to do as a business to make sure that you were, you know, to make that financially work, and I'm probably walking into a bit of a misunderstanding here as well, or a mis conception that nonprofits often don't have a lot of money. And that's I know, that's not always the case.
They don't have a lot of money. But you know, I think, I think the important thing, too, and I'm glad you asked that question, because that's really the first one that comes up. But, you know, we got colleagues to say, well, you know, you know, how nice for you, Mr. Architect living in San Francisco, you know, the most one of the most progressive cities, you know, on the planet, you know, how nice that you've been able to do a practice like this, and I think our reaction is always well, you know, it's true that that we have there's there's a very robust nonprofit community here. You know, for Double housing is subsidized by a variety of different government agencies and so forth. But, but we have been able to we have, we have a firm of 37 people right now, and we're paying people what they need to earn to live in one of the highest cost places to live on Earth. And, and we're doing okay. And the reason for that is that we've also been mindful about how we've designed our practice from an economic perspective. coining coining a uniquely Californian phrase, we'd like to say that we serve the bottom half of the wave. You know, as the, as the as the ebbs and flows of the economy go up and down, you know, you don't want to design your practice, up here, right? You want to do you want to design that kind of more or less down here, where where you can be pretty lean in terms of your operation. You know, we've always, we've always made sure that, that, that we've kept our overhead as low as we can keep it and still, you know, the have a nice place to work and so forth. And, and we've been very mindful about hiring people who can do a lot of different things. So that we don't, we don't really have any specialists in our office, we're looking for folks who are well rounded, passionate, architects, you know, they, they, they don't mind, getting their hands dirty, going to measure an old, nasty, dirty old building. And they don't mind getting out of the job site with the contractors, and they also love designing. So that's the, that's the sort of approach we've taken. And I think it maybe gets back to this, again, this idea of being, you know, intentional, you know, if you have a budget for a building, you're gonna, you're gonna, and it's a tight budget, you're gonna make every move count. And so we've tried over the years to make every move in our practice count. And, and I think I think that's, that's, that's worked out just just great for us. But I think, I think our point of the book is really look, you know, even if you are trying to, let's say, you're trying to wean yourself a little bit or have a little bit more agency in, in, you know, mission driven design. It, it's not an all or nothing equation, just start out small with a couple of projects, and get to know some of the nonprofit organizations in your community and, and see how you can bring your skills to help them with their mission. And I think, you know, another one of our adages is that you get the work that you do, you know, there's no question that if you if, if all you do is shopping centers, that's all you're going to do. Because people look at you, and they say, Oh, there's the shopping center architect, well, there's nothing wrong with shopping centers, there's just that if you don't want to do shopping centers exclusively, then you got a problem, right. So, so we've tried, this is another reason why we've tried to kind of nurture been very, very intentional about nurturing and kind of a broader range of typology of building types in our practice, so that so that we, we can keep that variety and our staff loves that because they're not stuck to doing the same thing over and over again. And, and each job is a new, a new, exciting new opportunity to get to meet new people who are doing amazing things.
So the pivot to kind of working solely with nonprofit clients. This happened around 2000.
Yeah, we had a we had around we had, we had a project before 2000. Before in our earlier earlier lives, as a was called the to row center for sustainability. And I was one of it was an adaptive reuse of historic buildings at the SEC, the Presidio of San Francisco, and creating kind of a nonprofit Center for Environmental foundations. And, and it was one of the earliest was the very first before lead. And it was one of the earliest sustainable projects that we've worked on back in the late 90s. And, and again, I think we had this glimpse of of working for really smart, interesting people who had a passion for their mission and and wanted architecture to support that. So So then, we, we sort of reformulated our practice saying, Okay, this is a good idea. Let's try this. And for a long came first project that came along was was a an affordable housing project for formerly homeless individuals in downtown San Francisco. And it was the first kind of ground up building up its kind in the, in the city. And, and once again, you know, you go to the you design this building and you find that in fact the budgets are tight, but they're not so tight that you can't make architecture. And so, you know, we clad this seven storey building and in and a kind of park flex, which is a Spanish made veneer, wood veneer meant resin material. And, and designed it so that you can identify each individual unit so that the, from the street, people who are used to live on the street can point with their friends, they can point up and say I live right there. And, and I have to say, you know, that was the for the opening the ribbon cutting for that project was was the first moment when we thought, wow, this really is important because there wasn't a dry eye in the house, people would you know, who were, you know, had come off the streets and are have been given supportive services and drug counseling and, and job counseling and so forth. You know, they they just felt, you know, you could just see that the how the the architecture had helped to dignify them, and to help them, you know, get a new start on life. And that's a powerful, powerful thing. And you know, it? You know, we were in this, I think, really, I think what we make a case in the book about is the fact that we're, you know, for better for worse, we're in this, I think, perfect storm of, of colliding events, you know, globally, you know, where, you know, just even since he when I last talked, you know, the Earth seems to be on fire. And, you know, what was I read yesterday that, yeah, Ocean off the Atlantic Ocean off Florida's coast is 100 degrees, it's like, it's a hot tub. And I mean, that it July was the was the has been the hottest month in the 125,000 years of Earth's history. And, and meanwhile, you know, the Canadian forest 45,000 square, square miles of Canadian forest has burned. And that's bigger than half the nations in the world. So something's going on here. And, and I think I think it it mean, you know, of course, meanwhile, we have people that climate change is affecting the greatest impact is having on people of color and people who are, you know, in lower economic constraints. So I think part of the reason we wrote the book is that we see, we see this moment in history as being this opportunity. It's not an opportunity to feel disconnected and stick your head in the sand and hope that it all goes away, because it's not, it's gonna get a lot worse. But it's an opportunity for architects who I think I've always, as a profession, we've always, you know, kind of worked at the fringe of relevance, you know, that, and I think there's been a, there's been a big a big struggle to overcome this public public impression that architects are mostly mostly white guys doing, you know, fancy homes for rich white people. And, and, in fact, there's nothing wrong with that, it's just that we can do so much more in architecture has so much greater opportunity to, to help address this this climate thing. One of the one of the things I'm doing in my free time, is that I'm a vice vice president of climate action for AIA, California force for the state, that statewide chapter of the IEA. And we have 11,000 members and and we've been pushing hard on changing codes. So this is another aspect of where AP architecture of the 21st century is about advocacy. It's not just about designing beautiful jewels, it's about changing codes, so that we can continue to thrive in, in in the marketplace. And so next next week, we have a hearing on a key hearing where we're proposing along with a consortium of other state agencies and and and and nonprofits Sierra Club and, and, and a variety of other environmental nonprofits to, for the first time include a requirement in the California Building Code that buildings of a certain size have to account for their embodied carbon.
Well, what role does what role does economics play for the architect to have agency? The world needs in the world coastal?
Yeah, well, so I think the point is that the world is changing, that codes are changing, that we have to, we have to keep up or we're going to be become unable to compete in this in this changing marketplace. You know, we don't even have to talk about AI. And how that's gonna change the landscape that that's been, that's been discussed plenty enough so far, but But I do think that, that, you know, the, the future of architecture is about high performance buildings that are also beautiful. And that serve communities that help knit communities together. Because I think if anyone pays attention to the science, and and to the, to the, hopefully believes in science, you're gonna, you're gonna realize that what we're seeing this summer is just the beginning of a really rough patch. And that architects have this opportunity to become, you know, relevant leaders in our communities, you know, almost in some ways, sort of, you know, creative problem solvers, to bring artful solutions to some of these, some of these challenges. And all of a sudden, we're not, we're no longer so irrelevant to the everyday population, all of a sudden, you know, we have we're in a leadership role, and we can, you know, help make things better at at, you know, from the scale of a small building, to the scale of community planning, and also, also, you know, changing codes that ripple throughout the throughout the world, and I, you know, here in California, we, you know, everyone prides ourselves here in California as being the, you know, maybe a little bit a little bit egotistically, that the center of innovation, of course, we're not, but there's there's a little innovation going on at other places. But that said, that's the that's sort of the vibe in California, sometimes that but I think well, it is true, that it is true that I think people do look to California, for what's next and I I remember having a conversation with with our friend at miseria, who is the founder of a gold medal AI gold medalist and the founder of architecture 2030. And he said, he said, you know, the thing that's really crazy is that whenever i Whenever I meet with the energy minister of China, or the energy Energy Minister of India, the first thing they asked me isn't what what's the US doing about climate change, or about the, the contributions of buildings in reducing carbon? What's California doing? And for better, or for worse, and so I think that's, that's a, that's an opportunity. And I think, you know, every everything that we do, what, no matter where you are, every thing that we do has a ripple effect, right. And I think I think these good ideas have a way of rippling outward, and, and, and taking on a life of their own. And so I tell people all the time, I really firmly believe that we are on the threshold of a whole new era of creativity and relevance for our profession, and we should embrace it, we shouldn't fight it, we should embrace it as a, as a, as a creative opportunity and an opportunity to bring greater meaning to our work every day.
Absolutely, and I think we have what you're saying here really echoes the point that the architect is and historically has been in a position of leadership and, and occupies this interesting domain, where you're interfacing with, with clients, with politics with end users with the environment, and to be able to, you know, kind of choreograph or curate all of those parties together to a common to have a common goal. That's really you know, that's that's a very powerful position. And there's an a kind of the body of knowledge that architects have is, you know, is the kind of little superpower. You like, yeah,
I really, I mean, it's easy to be cynical about being an architect, but I prefer not to be I prefer to. I prefer to think of us as being uniquely trained, uniquely prepared for This moment in history, as you say, we're used to, we're used to making things happen in a messy world. And that's a gift that is that is power that I agree, it's, it's our superpower. And we should we should be, I think, as a profession, we should be wholeheartedly embracing that. And I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that folks aren't doing that, I think there's, there's so mean, in many ways, the UK is way ahead of the US in these areas, the reuse of existing buildings, all of these things is, you know, is are, are happening all around the world. But I have to say that old ideas, Die Hard. And the the design culture of the 20th century, which was let's face it, the, the greatest orgy of energy consumption the world will ever see. remains with us. And and you can see that still happening in, in design awards programs where buildings are awarded, despite a lot of blah, blah, blah, about sustainability. Design designs are given to projects that are plainly not taking into account anything else that's happening around beyond the property lines of, of the, of the of the project. And, and I just think that's I have to say, the more the earth burns, the more the less patience, I personally have architects who insist on being, you know, creative artists, only. I mean, I think art is a huge part of it, it's I'm not denying that the value of beauty, beauty is essential. But if that's the only thing that buildings are about, we're all in trouble. And so.
So in order to be able to produce kind of high performance, buildings, both in terms of their energy consumption and their intelligence with being net zero, and also having social meaning, purpose and and drive, what does the what would you recommend the business, a high performance business looks like to deliver that kind of that kind of work? What sorts of things need to be in place? And what what kind of stewardship? Do the leaders have those practices need to be? Controls? Great
question. And I and I think I think it's, it's, it's completely circumstantial, you know, I think in our book, we say, Look, you know, this, this isn't the only way to do this. You know, and, and I really do feel that, that one of the key key sort of intentions here or hopes is that, you know, there are 1000s and 1000s of really creative people in the world who, who just need maybe to help be helped to think a little more broadly. Design beyond the property lines of your projects, think a more a little more broadly about who your client really is, is it just, is it just the person writing your checks? Well, that's they're very important. But it's, but it's also, you know, I think, the broader community, it's also of course, the planet. But so I think in terms of designing a kind of a business structure around this, I mean, I think for many years, the environment, environmental movement, or the sustainability, whatever you want to call it, movement has hoped that, that these, that these high performance components of design would just find their way naturally, kind of organically into design, right, that we would all just, and this has been actually one of the things that's been interesting to watch, particularly in the UK, and in Germany, where energy codes are, are much more stringent. And I remember I remember talking to Tom Maine one time and about about, you know, about his, his buildings and how he had discovered, you know, the creative opportunity of connecting to performance as a not yet another design criteria. And he was pretty funny. He said, you know, okay, just want to make sure one thing, I'm not a green architect, goddamnit. That's okay. Okay, I get it, I get it. He's but he, he, he, he, you know, the way I understood his point was that he found it to be a really interesting and a treat. It wasn't a limitation. It wasn't really interesting and intriguing, new area to explore creatively and I think, I think that's where at practice today can start to work too. For that moment, it's not it's not a again, it's not a, it's not turn that off and turn that on, it's kind of let's, let's, let's start to be mindful about moving ourselves in this direction, get ahead of the building codes, so that when the building codes change, we're prepared to, you know, knock things out of the park and be the be the firm in town that that can really, you know, do great design and also have it be have these other elements that that mean? Yeah. And of course, it unfortunately, it's rarely mentioned that, a too rarely mentioned that. You know, when you design a high performance building, we know that we know that the only area where energy costs are going down, isn't renewable energy, right? Coal and, and fossil, other fossil fuels are going up. And they will continue to go up as to become more and more scarce. So becoming totally fluent, and how to make buildings work on either on micro grids or on, you know, on site renewable energy systems, or whatever it is, is, is I think the next economic driver. I mean, solar power is already the cheapest energy on Earth. So, so let's, let's, why are we? Why are we thinking about that more? And why aren't we, you know, we're so obsessed, some of us are so obsessed with the perfect little bespoke detail. And meanwhile, you know, the Titanic is sinking. And this, this bespoke detail might be a beautiful photograph, but okay. Is that the wider
strategy? Is
that all there is?
Yeah, absolutely. So interestingly, you were saying as well, you know, when you're doing kind of projects, where there is, say, more stringent budget constraints that you've got to be really met, you know, every move you make is got to be the right move. Yeah. And notoriously design, like design isn't like, there's a lot of wrong moves that need to be made to make the right move. And, and certainly, when I've spoken to architects in the past about, you know, I've heard stories of working in some of the largest starchitect practices, for example, and some of the issues that happen with buildings not getting built, because the project has been, you know, you know, the lead architects have been so assured that the architecture is going to wow, and bamboozle the client, and they're going to be so impressed that they're going to expand the budget, and then it doesn't happen, and then the project ceases to actually get get filled, or another architect gets chosen. And when we're dealing with projects that are culturally and socially, you know, pertinent and important, that's not a mistake you can afford to make. No, it's like there's there's a, there's a there's a civic responsibility here to ensure that what's been designed is, is buildable and can get, and can get built, and you've got about a run your own business and keep everyone fed in the office and and pay them how do you how do you kind of control or put a boundary around the kind of iterate the iterative aspects of architecture? And, you know, and whilst keeping it buildable and profitable?
Great question. You know, I went to and I think it's made even more intensive here in San Francisco, which also has the highest construction costs in the world. And so it becomes even more important, not No, and I think what happens is, in the process of designing a building is that you know, sometimes I mean, it used to be back in the day, when I first started my career that architects could have a pretty good idea about how much something might cost, you know, there's a, there was a, you know, the, the, the, the inflation over the escalation of construction costs, was pretty flat for many, many, many years after post war post World War Two and, and that and that's what was one of the roles that architects played in those days. But no more. I mean, the escalations are just that the car construction cost escalation is crazy. And so you can't, you have to, you have to take a very methodical approach. And I think part of that is, will be to try to the culture that we try to reinforce in our office is look, let's not start with the most complicated thing you've ever seen on the planet. Let's start with the slump, the simplest, dumbest solution to the problem, that that get that makes it work. And then let's start enriching that, you know, let's, let's take the reverse approach. Let's start enriching that to the point and then make sure we're getting cost estimates regularly along through the process. And, and so and so the it's a, it's a different mindset to your point, then, you know, what's the coolest cantilever Zaha Hadid thing I can do? To? You know, and this this takes some of our young designers have a hard time with this because it's like counterintuitive, right? But I want to make something cool. And I keep saying, okay, it will be cool. When it's, we've arrived at this Zen moment, where it is all that it needs to be, you know, it's just nothing more, nothing less. And, you know, we always we always say around the office like this is all about making the most with the least this is the this is our new, I think it should be the the kind of the Battlecry of architects in the 21st century, let's make the most with the least. And how do you do that? And how do you? How do you how do you bring joy and delight and inspiration to people and still not? Not, not end up a building that doesn't get built? isn't doing anyone any good? So, anyway,
and likewise with your own with your own fees that you get from the from the clients? How do you ensure that you're not, you know, you're not burning through the fees, exploring a certain, you know, there's again, this is the other the other thing that happens with an architect's are getting overly creative is that they're burning through their own fields investigating something that nobody's asked them to investigate. I mean, it sounds obvious, but actually, it's that's quite difficult to you know, particularly when you're not now you know, you've got a team, you've got people who are independent, highly intelligent, wanting to investigate things, how do you keep them on on track and kind of connected with the budget of your own piece? Do they know that? Do you have a transparency? Oh, yes, absolutely.
I mean, I think, you know, we, we also, you know, years ago, we kind of developed a very simple little spreadsheet that allows us to come up with fees. And, and a lots, you know, I mean, a lot of firms, many firms most to this, probably most firms, we assign staff levels, and we know how many hours a week for how many weeks this person can work on this and, and that establishes a schedule, and we get very weak, we're pretty, we're pretty, pretty tough on those schedules. And I'm pretty tough on on making sure that we meet those schedules. So in other words, we don't, you know, we don't want to end up in a situation where we've gotten to your point we've got, we've got an x fee for the schematic design for, you know, three months effort. You know, that man is another thing we're not we're not doing schematic design for like a year. You know, that's that's not to say I, when I was a student, and I was worried about Louis Kahn's office, for example, and he would in his Vienna's students, colleagues with design buildings, you know, in schematic design for a year or two years, how does that work, I have no idea. I were happy to get three months. Which is why I think this is important is just as important to, to start at a, you know, have a strong idea. You know, just like, like any any student coming out of architecture school, what's your big idea, you have a strong idea that, that, that that organizes the organizers, the I didn't the, the design, and then just keep working on it. And so, you know, and we, we don't, we're not many offices, I think, you know, the business side of architecture, hold project managers responsible and even, you know, kind of, maybe, you know, doing them if they're not producing kind of on schedule on time on budget. And we don't, we don't take that we don't take a punitive approach. We just sort of try to create this culture of, let's all work together. We're trying to do this great thing. And I think this is another area by the way, where, you know, working on behalf of people with autism, or seniors at risk of homelessness, or whatever it might be, gives us a little bit greater gives each of us a little greater personal connection to it. As to why this has to work, right? It's not, we're not, we're not designing buildings for a Sultan in Dubai. You know, we're designing housing for people in San Francisco who are living on the street. And so, you know, I think this gets back to this idea of what, what's design excellence, you know, what, what does that mean. And this is another thing that we've been working on and trying to help. And I think that AIA national has taken on this, this, basically, they adopted the, the, the 10 measures of the Committee on the environment for design excellence, and, and we rebranded it, calling it the framework for design excellence. So this happened about three years ago, now, four years ago, my, my wife and partner Marshall made him was was one of the instigators of that at the national level. And I think that, that the, the challenge is that, you know, we still have architects who are completely ignoring that and are just doing they're still doing their thing. And, you know, again, that's great. But if every student coming out of school aspires to be the next, Eric Owen Moss, then who more or less ignores this stuff, then, you know, what, where's the profession gonna go in that regard? So I think we're trying to be one little voice of kind of an alternative vision, you know, how do you make a living doing architecture? How do you make it meaningful and satisfying? And gratifying? How do you make buildings that you're proud of, that are beautiful, that that win awards, and so forth. And that's, that's the, that's the goal. I mean, they're, they're not going to be these buildings. And I would also say that these buildings because of their budget constraints, and because of their performative constraints, which we tried to think of beauty in a much deeper way, you know, it's not these buildings don't always win Design Awards these days. Because if there's a, if there's a, if there's a jury that is specifically focused on the bespoke detail, then, you know, we couldn't afford this bespoke detail. So that's too bad for us. But that's okay. You know, we're just, we're just doing our thing.
Yeah. Well, that's, that's very interesting, and that the profession itself has a bit of a myopic approach to what is good design. And, you know, what gets what gets revered in the design world and in the journals? is, you know, it's a very thin slice of what actually, design is all about.
Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right. In fact, I think that the some of the press around the current Venice be an ally has been interesting in that regard, because, of course, you know, I heard a couple of, you know, well known architects, of course, the focus has been on design for community. And, and I've heard a number of have quoted a number of well known architects saying things like, Well, that's all great, but where's the architecture?
Probably not pretty. Patrick Schumacher, I suspect.
I'm not naming names, but I just think I think that was a thought that was a, that was a very telling comment, you know, where's the architecture? Well, yeah, this is architecture. Sorry, guys. Let's, let's, let's reframe our, let's reframe our context a little bit here.
You mentioned there as well, the kind of, you know, helping people make a living in, in architecture. And obviously, this is something that is a very pertinent, prominent topic all around the world is the architecture, you know, the average pay of an architect and having just visited California, I've, you know, was shocked at how expensive everything comparatively mean, mean here in London? Well, when I'm in London, that the cost of living is very high, as well. And the similar sorts of problems exist, but, you know, we're, we're seeing it's becoming increasingly difficult for somebody on an architect's salary to be able to live near their office, for example. And we talk about accessibility in and diversity in the profession. And for many students, the return on investment just simply isn't, isn't there right if you're coming from a socio economic background, which is less than less advantage than somebody else, investing and you know, you guys in the US the the education fees is a lot greater than it is here in the UK, but we're, we're slowly catching up not that So a great thing to be catching up with. But it's a big investment to, you know, seven years 10 years training plus 100 $200,000. And then coming out with, you know, you've got to be paying those debts off and then salaries, which are, you know, that they're difficult, that they're difficult how, what's your advice here for the profession to be looking at improving this?
Now, this is a huge issue. And I agree, and I think it's particularly with the level of student debt that we're seeing. And, and I think it's, and I think it's also has an impact on, you know, the diversity that that we're trying to increase in the profession, you know, if if I'm a young person of color, and, you know, who happens to be talented and so forth, and so on, but also academically gifted? You know, are my parents gonna say, yeah, go be an architect. That's a white guys profession, why is gonna be an architect? No, they're gonna go be a go be a software designer, you know. And I think I think therein lies the rub. I think, you know, architects have always, you know, I think one of the challenges we've made we've had over the years, or the since the inception of architecture, is that we were always the gentleman's profession, right. And the people who dabbled in architecture, you know, Thomas Jefferson, and, you know, others we can name were basically independently wealthy, and they could dabble in architecture. And that was sort of the beginning of this idea of architects as being as being the sort of these gentrified artists, who didn't really need to make much money, because they were having so much fun. And I think, you know, I think what now here we fast forward, here we are in this economy, where, you know, architects are, are seen as being, again, less relevant to the larger economic engine. And tech is celebrated as being primary. And that, and they don't have this, let me see this. And we see we see this at a personal level in San Francisco, as you might imagine, all the time. So we have 30, something old staff, who are went to Harvard and you know, are really smart and doing great work and passionate, and, and, you know, they know people that they're smarter than, you know, working for some of the big tech outfits making three times as much money. And that's just, I mean, that's just crazy. Right? And I think I think it exactly, well, it also, not only does it, does it drive up the cost of living for everybody else, right? But it also, it also just warps the reality of the economy where, you know, there's really, I always say, there's really, there's really two economies happening in the Bay Area, right? There's the tech economy, and this the rest of us, and how do the rest of us work within this while I think, you know, 30 something, architects say, well just charge more fees. Well, I'm sorry, it's not quite that simple. Because there's always an architect who will do it cheaper. That's just the way this works. There's always a Young Hungry architect, or maybe an old hungry architects who will do a cheaper and half the price just to get just to get the job. So so that's the competitive marketplace we're working in and I was on a, I was on a AAA board call the other day. And, and, and, and somehow this teacher, an academic professor, who was out have to be on the board launched into this tirade about why architecture is so such idiots for not charging more money and, and, and paying, they're paying their employees more and, and I said, Okay, so now we're supposed to change the entire economy of the planet, you know, that, that might be a little beyond our creative, you know, creative ability, but what we can do and what we're trying to do is pay as pay a fair wage, when we have a year of profit. We share it, we don't you know, we're not you know, we're not we're not we're not driving Lamborghinis here, you know, we're we share it with everyone and and that helps to make bridge some of the gap. But, but it definitely doesn't bridge the whole gap. There's no way that we're going to be able to triple people's salaries coming out of school. But, you know, you know, and I don't know what else to say about that. That's really a tough problem. And I, I think without my I'm hopeful that this idea that we're trying to promulgate of becoming more relevant to society and be be seen more as essential workers essentially essential problem solvers to help our community He's become more resilient and, and, and help create a just sustainable future will will make us be perceived as having more value. But the long, long tradition of architects undercutting, we always used to say architects we eat are young, you know, we there's a, there's a long tradition of architects undercutting each other to get the job. And that that tradition, I'm afraid is not going to go away anytime soon.
Yeah, absolutely. And, and obviously the, it's, it's the tradition of doing lots of free work, you know, there's the undercutting and the kind of just giving work away in order to win stuff. And that's, that's prevalent all over the place was ton of ends up devaluing your own services, even if you do win the work,
and it starts to send the wrong message to, to, to young architects that, you know, they have to work long hours, and some of them for that no pay as well, which is really something that we don't do at all, but that's a, I mean, there's a long tradition in Europe, I know of architects, young architects going to work for an office for free for a while. And that's something we just don't do. I mean, we pay people we have to have to pay, they have to be able to pay rent, and they have to be able to buy groceries, and, and so, yeah, so anyway, I don't I'm not framed any minute suggesting that any of this is easy. But if we, if we, if we wanted an easy profession, we wouldn't ever become architects and, and I've always been a strong believer, I'm a little old fashioned, I guess, in this in this regard. And that is that. You know, I mean, I think if you, if you're if you're in a profession that really requires your full commitment of your heart and soul, to make beautiful useful things in the world, then you just you just design your way toward that goal. And you want to make sure that you can have a family and send your kids to college and do all the other things that we have to do. And there's a way to do that. It's just, you just have to every step of the way, you make things a little better. And I again, I think this idea of becoming with greater relevance to society, and not changing the perception of architects as the bespoke tailors of of buildings for rich people and, and moving more toward, you know, architects as, as problem solvers in on a changing planet. To help make environments open for everyone that are healthy and regenerative and beautiful, then, then, you know, this, this is probably a naive hope on my part, that might start to help change the economic model. I don't, I don't, I'm not holding my breath on that. But I want to hold that when we're trying to hold up our office, or our practice, as at least one example of how, how we've been able to do this, we've been able to pay people a living salary in the Bay Area, many of the younger folks would say it's probably not quite enough, but which we're doing what we can and trying to share as much as we possibly can to help them. And this, this, I think, maybe touches on another aspect of our, of our practice that I think a lot of practices do as well, which is really important. I think we have a responsibility to the young architects as to help them learn how to be well rounded professionals and help them understand the complexities of this practice. And so, for example, we you know, we regularly share our financial information to everybody in the office, you know, as much as they want to see until they fall asleep. Once a month, once a year, we sort of okay, let's let's look at the books, folks. And then they because they all want to see the books. Okay, well, here's the books, and then they got halfway through they say, Okay, we're good, we're good. We're good. Just Just Just send me my paycheck. I'm fine.
What kind of information are they usually keen to, to look at? And obviously, yeah, like you mentioned, there actually takes a little it takes a little something to be able to translate. You know, what you're what you're looking at? Yeah, I
think we try to frame it in a way that is pretty unclear. Understandable. I mean, basically, fees come in. Here, labor costs, your our overhead costs. We're trying to keep the overhead as low as we can. Blah, blah. Apply and and here's what if we if we, if we're successful in delivering to our clients projects that are that are that where we can make a decent profit, then that profit is something that we share with with the, with the staff. And and I think they appreciate that. And I think it's just the big picture, how do what I? How does what I do fit within the larger business goals of the firm? And, and then and then, you know, how can I contribute more? I think that's that's what we're trying to kind of culture we're trying to engender
premium. So just to conclude here, what what would be your piece of advice for young architects, or perhaps new business owners who are wanting to step into their own stewardship or leadership of their of their communities? You know, and, and make money whilst doing it?
I think it really comes down to values. I think we, we as a profession, probably maybe more than many other professions are, I would argue, a values based profession. You know, we, we, we help our clients express their values through their buildings. But I think we also have our own values to think about and how to our values and our clients values mesh. So I think the first step for a young architect, I believe, is to decide what really matters to you what what is important to you in the world, you know, what, what do you what, what would cause you to get up excited every day and go to work and make make new things and, and once you have that, a clear vision of that, then you can let that that those those values, that value structure, frame, what kind of clients you might want to work with. And, yes, you've got to work for starting out, you got to work for anyone who can pay your bills, but, but that doesn't mean that you have to stay in that mode, you can continue to work toward nurturing clients have like minded values. And, and and start to think about, you know, who in my community is doing great stuff? And if I'm going to, if I'm going to, you know, provide a little bit of extra consultation for free to somebody, you know, would it be? Would it be a developer who wants to build a, you know, high rise condo? Or would it be a food Co Op, who really needs help coming up with a new vision for their facility, or whatever it might be? And I would argue that, that that's, that's where that value judgment comes into play. And then I think once once you start getting you have a good sense of that. And of course, values change over time, right? It's amazing how when you get when you have kids, your your values changed pretty radically. But as you as you as they change over time, make sure that you're you're being, you know, tried to be true to that I think one of the biggest cognitive sources of cognitive dissonance in architects is, as we see people aging in this profession is that there's a disconnect between their personal values and the values they're promulgating for their clients every day. And I think that's, that could be soul sucking. And, yeah, and I think so I think you decide, you know, it's, it's a basic design problem, you decide what you want to do. You decide how you want to solve the problem, and then you decide, you decide the details of how okay, how am I going to make this work as a business in my community? Who do I need to know to to, to help advance these ideas and to tap into, you know, funding that's available for for nonprofit organizations, and then, you know, you're off to the races.
Brilliant, brilliant. William has perfect place to conclude. Thank you so much for sharing with us this afternoon, thoroughly enjoyed your, your expertise and your deep insights there into the profession and standing inside being a mission driven practice. So, thank you very much.
Thank you, Ryan. I really appreciate the opportunity to chat with you. It's been really fun.
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