Nigeria vs Twitter: the fight for freedom of expression. Global Journalism Seminar with Fisayo Soyombo | Otter.ai

Nigeria vs Twitter: the fight for freedom of expression. Global Journalism Seminar with Fisayo Soyombo

Reuters Institute59min

Unknown Speaker

00:00

It is a good omen you being interviewed. I don't so you seem to get yourself into trouble

Meera Selva

00:05

without any help from anybody else. So I will start the Once we stop we I will. We will start and I'll do a short introduction, and then just ask you a little bit about prison story and then if the question and answer and then the fellows in the room will also ask questions.

Meera Selva

00:28

Hello and welcome to the global journalism seminar at the Reuters Institute for the Study of journalism. This week we have one of the most intrepid courageous journalists I've ever encountered. I was going to say foolhardy, but I'll leave that to others to decide. Fisayo Soyombo is a Nigerian investigative journalist who was a former managing editor of Sahara Reporters, and the Pioneer editor of the cable. He's also edited the International Center for Investigative Journalists, investigative reporting, and is currently the founder of the foundation for investigative journalism. So it's a journalist who believes in absolutely throwing himself into whatever story he's working on. He got himself jailed to spend five days in a police cell as a suspect, and eight as an inmate in the infamous Ikoyi prison to track corruption in Nigeria's criminal system. He drove the equivalent of a stolen car a vehicle with no documentation, from Abuja to Lagos, passing 86 checkpoints in a journey of a 1600 kilometers over 28 hours, just to see what happened to see if he would ever be stopped. Ask for documentation or arrested. Say Welcome and thank you so much for joining us.

Fisayo Soyombo

01:37

Thank you so much, America. Good to see you. Again. Thank you for having me.

Meera Selva

01:40

Thank you. Tell us a little bit about your investigation into the Nigerian prison system because it's quite an extraordinary piece of reporting. How did the story come about and just tell us how it unfolded?

Fisayo Soyombo

01:52

Thank you. Like you said, extraordinary piece of reporting, but I did not an extraordinary it starts. It was a story that began as a lot of stories could have happened. You know, the cousin of mine did bad business, got into trouble. His creditors came after getting arrested and detained mentary in freezing and he came out and said, Oh, wow, there's so much going on in that there's so much injustice in the system. And from that moment, this was in 2016 or 15. I started to think someday. I'd like to report from the factual point of view not talking to ex inmates or talking to prison what I want to find out a report that is indivisible. That's what I wanted to do. Which then meant that I had a number of years to get myself ready psychologically, mentally to go spend time in prison. You know, initially, it wasn't meant to be it totally a holy prison story. In fact, I titled the page reverse Prison Break, because a lot of people in prison want to, you know, organize the break to get out I wanted to get in, but then I got into policer you know, I really don't want to say I bought a car, what 2.8 million naira I paid 500,000 Naira, and I didn't pay the balance of 2.3 million. Either the police picked me up by Nigerian laws, you cannot hold a suspect beyond 24 hours. If you caught is within 40 kilometers radius of the police. If it is more, you can't hold the suspect beyond 14 hours unless you get a court order. These guys detained me the one, day two, day three, day four, day five every morning, they would come to me to ask if there was someone I could call who could pay for my bill. I saw miners in the police. You know I saw bribery, corruption. If you wanted to use your phone you have to pay if someone brought in food you have to pay to be able to eat food that was brought to you by your relatives. Meanwhile, you a suspect, not the convict, which explains why when the N SAS protests began in Nigeria in 2020, I as an individual supported it, because I had first hand knowledge of all the injustice that happens at the typical Nigerian police from the after five nights in police. I was arraigned in court and immediately after the court session, officials of the court were coming to me to see if I could pay they would get my bill documents for me in a few hours and I would sleep in my house. Meanwhile, the pronouncement of the magistrate was I should be reminded in prison first, until I perfected my build conditions, which means that typically the Nigerian justice system if you have your money if you do the right people your right connections, we escaped justice all the time. Because people come to court session, I think, oh, he has been set to do and they go not knowing that the accused already paid his way and slipped atone back might ask Do you have committed offense? From there I was sent to prison in prison. My cover was blown after the cover was blown, because they found some device on me and then wanted to leave as a journalist and I thought if I said I was at that point in time, that was the end of the story. By the way, right the court, prison officials were coming to me to see if I had money. I would say especially ourselves, I would not they told me point blank. You either save the prison with your body or with your money. You know, so a lot of things that I saw in prison records of prisoners can be raised if you have the money, which was why in 2020 when some prisoners escaped Edo state they could not put they couldn't fix the photos of those pieces of some prisoners to their names because it can't be deleted. If you if you pay. You get to sleep in special cells. You were in air conditioned cells. You can as I say you have prisoners who are on Facebook who are on Twitter. Oh by phones from prison waters. So essentially, the summary is that details I found that were disheartening and they confirm that if you have money or you know the right people, basically justice Nigeria,

Meera Selva

06:49

how I'm going to come to the end stars movement because this is crucial, but before I get to that, I do have a question as a journalist and as as kind of human being. How confident that if you go into the prison, you'd be able to get out. I mean, it's quite clear. Can you talk about police brutality

Fisayo Soyombo

07:05

and then as an individual, you can't be confidence the way prisoners are treated in Nigeria, like like they're all on death row, even though not all of them are, even if you're awaiting trial in it, which is your child is going on. You have not been convicted by a court of law under in prison. There was a case two months ago after prison called q-j here on the outskirts of the federal capital. Some guy was suicidal was always thinking about the denial of freedom. And because there was power outage in prison, the guy just went somewhere and he hung himself, you know, and when he made when he made a lot of the authorities they told them you have to wait to borrow money before anyone can come check up on you. So if you enter a prison cell in Nigeria, there are no probability, anything, anything happens and you're gone. And the authorities can deny your death to release your bodies. They call your relatives and tell them to sign that they're not going to cause any trouble so essentially, if you if you get into prison, anything can happen from this.

Meera Selva

08:11

So this is this is kind of you using journalism, in a way to experience something and so you're not reporting on something. As an observer, you're you're putting yourself in there which has all sorts of implications about what it means to be a journalist in many ways. And the end SAS movement that you're referred to is is really interesting. And just to kind of highlight quickly, so a series of protests that sprung up around Nigeria, protesting against police brutality, and especially over the special anti robbery squad, which is the SARS and it was the movement that was a kind of driven by civil society driven by social media. Could you tell us a little bit about what role journalists played as well in the movement?

Fisayo Soyombo

08:57

If I answered your question, please permit me to tell you that within an hour of coming on to this program, I got to reports of police brutality. in Lagos alone. The bus driver, Whose vehicle broke down, pushed it aside overnight. The police went for the bus they towed it and now they're asking for $50,000 bribe. And it is so awesome. One other indicator. So it's an everyday experience for Nigerians that to get brutalized by the police. What role did journalists play? I would say that for the first time the Nigerian government got got that sticking to its foundations, because there was international media coverage. A lot of times credit is given to the young Nigerians who took to the streets to protest and people often underestimate the importance of the global attention. That journalist paid the protest. And it helped to put the Nigerian government in a situation where he thought look, this is a global crisis is the global PR disaster that we have to manage? You know, so for essentially for movements, journalists are incredibly important to the success or failure.

Meera Selva

10:18

Okay, and which media outlets in particular Do you think played the most important roles here and with with television with online

Fisayo Soyombo

10:27

for many Look everyone, everyone Duggins CNN, BBC, Reuters out Jazeera, New York Times from all over the world, everyone was interested and it helps to be helped massively to put pressure on the government Nigerian journalists to you know, journalists were filming the way they were writing editorials opinions for these times when the government if you treated the biggest open secret about the answers protests that the Nigerian government hired talks to infiltrate the protests grounds and discredit the protesters, but we knew this because journalists were recording you know, the talks who arrived the federal capital at some point and we sapling our entry bakels within two good reporters grounds, there were videos of them. So journalists played an incredible role, even local journalists in exposing all the shenanigans that happened during the protest. How

Meera Selva

11:26

I think particularly on local journalists and Nigerian outlets, did they feel more able to report this time than they have been able to in the past? Because no international attention

Fisayo Soyombo

11:44

not in terms of abilities to report its individual. So you have the journalists who aspire to do their best, you know, within the limits of the human weakness to stay on the side of the truth. For those loans. It was hard, the government came down on them, the Nigerian broadcasting commission. Find a number of them the likes of channels, TV, arise TV, you know, just for instance, for saying there was a massacre at the toll gates on October 20. So the government came down hard on some media houses, on some journalists, on agencies that were seen to have encouraged journalists. There's an organization called Get field in Nigeria that provided small funding under 1000 50,000. for journalists to cover the protest, the government froze the accounts, you know, and deal with journalists contracted by the government to brand everything inside us. As it speech. So, in terms of freedom to report it, the general perspective is to look at the security of journalists, but the ongoing warfare against the truth is more mental than physical. The incremental you have an army of social media influencers, who throng Twitter, Facebook, and brand, a lot of things fake news. Of course, fake news was evident during the protests, but then they were governments. Journalists via government and influence on social media influencers that government contracted to come online and continue to defend the position of the government. The position of the police are continuing to attack proponents and supporters of the handset protests.

Meera Selva

13:50

I'll come to social media and Twitter in particular in a few minutes. I have lots of questions on that. But before that, just two questions from our journalist fellows about your personal question from Gideon Sarpong. In Ghana, which is when you when you went into prison what risk considerations that you take before going undercover? Did you have an escape plan and literally an escape plan? And have there been any reforms since your investigations?

Fisayo Soyombo

14:16

Okay, the risks I knew there was a possibility of death in one day it was minimal under those possibility of suddenly I knew the possibility of physical harm and also the possibility of mental damage because if you spend time with people who have truly committed crimes, by the way, there are people in prisons who are innocent, but if you spend time with people who have committed crimes were added, you know, it can take a mental tool, if you if your your strength or values are not well founded, you know, you could be exposed to some very quick ways of making money that are that are impure. So there was at risk. And I had a plan a plan B plan C Plan D, by the way, I said my cover was blown. The inventory funded all the journalists, but they could not have me because immediately it happened. We activated plan a you know, they were still trying to organize the room where a meeting would be held to deliberate what should be done with me when they got a call from the comptroller of prisons at the Federal Capital Territory in Abuja. Meanwhile, this happened in Lagos. So there was a plan to say if something went wrong, what we I don't want to see them here, but there was a plan and we have to activate one of those plans, which is the reason for for leaving the prison in one piece, despite that my cover was blown at some point.

Meera Selva

15:49

Okay, thank you. And what's the final part of that question was there have been any reforms that you're aware of?

Fisayo Soyombo

15:55

Yes, yes. So I didn't even get to know le love some of the officers who were caught on tape taking bribes were transferred out of the city, to very remote parts of, of different states or some fun form of punishment to for for their bad behavior. That's one I know also that there is some some level of carefulness on the part of the police and court officials to say look, we don't know who's watching and we have to just be more careful about about who we ask bribes from how we treat people who are coming in as inmates because you never know. And most importantly, there is a high level of consciousness as a result of that story among the public about the problems of the Nigerian justice system. And sometimes when when we do stories that instances where we record immediate impact. And there are times when the biggest impact is just the knowledge of the extent of the problem we are dealing with because when we know the extent of the problem, we can start thinking of solutions. But if the problem exists, and it's not even open to public knowledge, the people the right people to make the change and even are aware that the best is that back there. How do you talk about solving that problem?

Meera Selva

17:21

Thank you. Another very practical question from Conrad Durham is an investigative journalist on the Netherlands with us. And when when he goes on to cover he kind of films all the findings. And in your case, how did you how did you can prove what you saw in person what would be your recording, we take notes.

Fisayo Soyombo

17:39

Oh, yes. I had. I had security devices. I filmed the police station. I feel that I filmed in court I filmed in prison. The ones that I filmed in prison with were seized for me, the device was seized. As a matter of fact, the prison went back to tell the police that look you're slipping someone came in there and decoded you and and that's it. But the thoughts, the device, the app contained all the recordings, you know, so when I came home, I went back to the ones that I recorded before my camera was gone. So I did have some videos from Felisa from the courts showing that something were wrong that that shouldn't be if you're talking about justice for people who have been wronged in wrong.

Meera Selva

18:33

Okay. Thank you going going forward now to the to the again back to the SAS protest and and the kind of the, the, the role of social media here and Twitter has played a huge role in Nigeria Not least because it is you know, it's suspended a tweet from the President. You know, attacking the civil service. Without getting into too much trouble. What do you see as the role of social media in this space, especially Twitter, Facebook, the kind of the US companies you talked already about the influencers and the and the bots essentially who are kind of paid by government, but it's also been a space that people have been able to organize and, and for his dissent, I was just wondering where you see the balance fallen?

Fisayo Soyombo

19:20

Yeah, I will say that I will say anything without caring if he gets into trouble a lot. You know, as long as it's the truth, it has to be said You know, we can't all shy away from the truth in the name of we don't want to run into trouble. If I say anything, and the government wants to arrest it has to be properly caught, even if there's an arrest because of something I've said here. It has to be proven in court, and I'm not going to say anything that I'm not sure of. It's clear that Twitter in particular, has been a platform for holding the government to account. By the way the current regime of President Buharu very benefited from Twitter when he was contesting in 2015. He used Twitter as some form of to push his activism against the government of Goodluck Jonathan. There is nothing happening now that the current administration did not benefit from again, even while that benefit is on. On the flip side, it exists that the government has the budgets for social media appointees, who then have a crowd of people who come to the space and push the government agenda. So it's not like it's a space that exists without government participation, without government's ability to influence No, the government is also you know, is also benefiting from that splits. The only problem the only problem was that on October 14 2020, duck promoted answers and invited people to donate bitcoins to the cause. That's the only problem can you talk about the tweet of President Buharu the way that was meted? That's just an afterthought. The real problem was that, by that tweet, duck had effectively thrown his weight behind the protests and it rattled the government. But it's a space that is important, that needs to be preserved. Because, look, when the people do not have a space and Avenue, a platform to vent their discontent with the standard of governance they are asking for other key if I'm annoyed, and I can tweet a tweet about the things I don't like about this country and move on. Then. You're telling me to bottle up my anger and run get a gun gun and get a machete get a knife and harm people then it's important to have a space for people to vent their anger, to say the things they don't like about about about governance and about government. And if the people in government care if they are indeed in office in trust for the people, then it's incumbent on them to listen, not to shut down that space. That's why it's a democracy.

Speaker 1

22:18

Tell us a little bit of cybercrime law, Nigeria

Fisayo Soyombo

22:25

so the cyber crimes law is something government officials often use to go after journalists that that have written what you don't like, you know, so if you write and it looks like this pressure on a certain individual on a certain government, the Nigerian government often you know, finds provisions of that law, you know, to arrest to arrest journalists to just lock them, lock them away. And the important thing is that government will always government government always holds the Asics so if government wants to wants to prosecute any journalists, they always find different provisions of the cyber crimes law to arrest journalists, but there's nothing on that law for instance, that that prevents people from expressing their opinion from from from seeing the truth. From from speaking facts. And again, the government itself even outside the Cybercrime law, the government came up a few years ago and say, if you if your pronouncements on social media are deemed as hate speech, that is a fine for you a hefty fine, you know, but is a government that is not interested in fines for underperforming public officials, fines for the real issues triggering those comments. So if I tweet about killings in Kaduna in in northern Nigeria, you say it's because I'm criticizing someone, but the problem is that the government has failed to protect the people. So what's the fine for that in itself?

Meera Selva

24:07

It does kind of step back into the role of the state of journalism in Nigeria is really fascinating because it's a hugely densely populated country with a vast number of media outlets in every language, every region. How much do you see a sense of public interest journalism, because from outside, I see some really terrific journalism, really incredible journalism digitally, and a lot of legacy media that really sees its role as Reporter You know, chronicling government pronouncements in many ways, but I wonder if that's fair.

Fisayo Soyombo

24:44

I think that there is a shift in in a, there's a generational shift in the practice of public interest. Journalism. I like to think that, that this is in part due to the interests of not for profits, funders, in democracy, and their understanding that they cannot have a very large democracy without an independent press. So it's been that it's it's, you don't necessarily have to run after government have to promote government to survive as an individual. You can't get donor funding. And you then have a new crop of Nigerian journalists who would rather do that kind of journalism than chase the government. But, like you said, for the legacy papers, it's the standard is by and large still, to cover government activities. Because that's what the glue used to. Advertising. That's what they did for decades. But the times are changing. And I do really think that the future of Nigerian public interest journalism is quite bright. A couple of young guys who are near 1234 years five years old in the system, and I really bent on holding the government to account so I think it's ever going to get better in the coming years.

Meera Selva

26:15

I mean, don't find a journalism is interesting, and in many countries, while it produces very, very good journalism, it's often miss trusted by the population for being an outsider's perspective. And it's something that governments often weaponize, they'll say, you know, this is foreign funded, you know, spying essentially onto our domestic affairs. Do you see that in Nigeria and how do you combat that if you're a donor funded outlet?

Fisayo Soyombo

26:43

think the problem is that the prime is not enough funding. The problem is the independence that it gives journalists to survive outside of corporate Nigeria and the government. The fact that the dependency on government has been whittled down. In fact, that is an alternative that the government government would rather be the for instance, to three years ago portions of our route escaping advertorial so it's getting editorial punches Nigeria's most widely read, by the way, about the president and said look this this President is going about it as if by name we are in a military regime. So we are going to stop referring to this guy as a president but as a major general, his last rank in the army uncomment advanced stopped going to punch you know, so the number of papers that government will typically send advert to and pay them for then shrunk by one simply because of diabetes. So the real issue is that women would rather rather maintain that stranglehold on the media side that outside corporate Nigeria and the government, you can't survive. To the to the best of my knowledge in terms of the interactions I've had with one or two donors in Nigeria. It's not only about it's not about spying on the government. It's not about compromising internal security. It's usually about we have to empower the people who are working for the public who are working for truth. We have to strengthen them because every country needs it. Every country needs alternative voices, especially in a country like Nigeria. Where like you said the population is huge. Government, bad government policy can have spiraling effects. You know, on paper, the consequences can be massive. And we can't enthrone a system where there is no journalistic accountability, but the government has to be wary of

Meera Selva

28:50

what's the trust in Nigeria Do you feel between the audiences and the media, both with the newer media and the legacy media? So

Fisayo Soyombo

29:01

I think the legacy among the older generation, the legacy media and then more trust, which means that if you read, read a story on an online platform, for instance, and you doubted it, if the legacy papers reported, you'd say, oh, it's now important, it's not in the guardian. So that means it is true. You still have that. And among the younger population, the legacy media, Legacy newspaper houses are seen as sin I'm choosing my words carefully as seen as more corrupt than the new guys are seen as more loyal to the old order. You know, meanwell online platforms, new media are seen as those who are more likely to give you the news, just as it is, even if the government doesn't like you. So it seems that if you want independent news that is not hasn't been filtered by government influence, you would find that on on social media, but generally speaking, if you if you want to confirm and restore is true, then you should go to legacy platforms.

Meera Selva

30:12

Okay. So it is interesting. So the, the center still that the legacy media has to carries the weight, even though we didn't investigate or criticize us heavily. It's a new ones. What was it like? I mean, he was banned for a few days this autumn in Nigeria. And you talked about the the, the bad actors on Twitter, and I'm wondering the question for Mark Alou a former journalist fellow from Kenya as well. Was there an upside to the Twitter ban? Was that did you have a sense that you were being an independent journalists or being less harassed on Twitter or was there a sense of calm was there any upside?

Fisayo Soyombo

30:46

Yes, sense of calm in the sense that it was an official government policy for you not to use Twitter. So imagine that the known government supporters on Twitter could not use it. The official government spokesman could not use it. So the the citizens they do in terms of obfuscating the truth, who didn't do it by sending their foot soldiers so the main guys are not activated Naga, but I would I would, I would rather have the original system. Look quality of opinions, is part of the foundations of democracy, that you try to stifle the truth and you try to enthrone the truth. You both have access to the same space, and then leave the public to judge. So I won't sit down and say oh, because I can tweet now and it will know police is not going to come after me in Milan. The non government spokesman are not going to come after me. I'd say I like it. To say that would mean to contradict myself when I say it's a space that will be open to everyone salada have what we used to have three June where everyone could talk and then the public will make up their minds.

Meera Selva

32:09

That's true. Thank you very much. Um, two questions just from a journalist fellas, I'm looking down at my phone where they're sending me questions via WhatsApp and the under cybercrime law going back to the cyber criminal and could you give specific examples of what you referred to about instances where it was used against journalists? And what measures would you recommend would be effective against hate speech? Again, you've talked about things being misused, but what do you think would be effective?

Fisayo Soyombo

32:37

Okay, an example is that of a journalist. Called AGBA jalingo. Or reported about the diversion of funds by the state governor by the governor of a state called cross river. Diversion of funds meant for the Cross River State microfinance bank. And was arrested becoming cooktop elite list of crimes against him and one of them was cut. I can't remember precisely why not that they cited the cyber crimes law as part of the list of charges that were brought up against them. But there was nothing he needs the governor when you need to prove that the study was wrong if it was and he couldn't do it. That's one example. Then the second question,

Meera Selva

33:27

hate speech. Hate speech, do you think would be effective tools for ending or lessening hate speech?

Fisayo Soyombo

33:37

Do most important the most important is quality governance. You know, as long as the people are angry with their country, you can't expressly control how they express that anger. Some are going to do it in refined ways because of the background because of the upbringing because of the environment. Yes. Or does I just going to to want to blow everything up. Do people have a reason to be angry? Yes. Have you Nigeria today where people can't travel interstate for five hours, without fearing for their lives. I used to drive from Lagos to Abuja I lived by Buddha for a year and in that day, I drove like five times from from Lagos to Abuja. I can try that now. I can't I can't try that. It's not sick. You have kidnappings everywhere. You know, robbery. The economy's is poor. The Naira continues to weaken against the dollar. The spending power of the people continues to reduce or you want them to be happy. You know, as long as the government has given the people that loophole to cultivate the anger not going to have precise control over how it's done. The solution is to give people quality leadership. If I if I was busy, gainfully employed, I'm not going to have time to be following the kernel and what you say and be writing, you know, offensive treats a guest my country. But if I'm jobless, if I'm not protected, someone is selling an alternative to me, whether it's right or wrong. I'm going to think about it because I'm sure that what this system I'm inside now is not for me. We just have a few people who are holding the country by the jugular. If you do a study of Nigeria public office borders, you will find that that the current governor is either the son or grandson or someone who was God made decades ago. You know, the current minister then you have people need people in the eye place. He's just a network of very smart people, and the rest of the public are angry. It looks like this Nigeria is a concept that serves that benefits the interest of just a few. So what's going to be left for the rest of us, and that's why the people are angry. You know, those who keep saying things that the government considered hate speech. only say that because they're angry with the quality of leadership that they're getting. I think the government will be alive to his responsibility. They're going to see a drastic drop in speech.

Meera Selva

36:38

Thank you. Thanks very much. Really, really important answer. They're going back to journalism in particular. There's two questions one from Dollar painter who's on your countrymen. What what do you see as the future of journalism in Nigeria? And the question from Mirage Lunia, Indian journalist from Kashmir is which is what is the Nigerian journalist community doing to push back against the abuses that you that you've highlighted the kind of legal abuses and the corruption and the kind of suppression of press freedom and independent reporting?

Fisayo Soyombo

37:12

The future of journalism is I'll say technically, in the hearts of people outside journalism, okay, but not to people within if people are going to and as I said, the law is rising. If people in law business in the donor space are going to see journalism as crucial to the survival of this country, then it's not going to get better and I think it will. Also because of the the, the, the the pureness of the mind, of the young people who are entering this industry, you have really young people coming in and wanting to hold the government to account not just not just coming to displace, to fully be people in power to ingratiate themselves to people in power, to have connections to be connected to know the higher rights. You have young people who to the to the outside world to the public, and not that money. But they are really interested in using this profession as the platform for building this country. Because if you have a country where the truth prevails, where the politicians don't have it's so easy to steal money to trample on people to distort the truth, if you have that kind of country. Democracy is better served. So I think the future is really bright, but that the accent of writers will be determined by how much of interest people outside journalism show in it survivor.

Meera Selva

38:59

Thank you very much and then the next part of that question, which is what are journalists themselves doing push back against attacks on them tax on their industry?

Fisayo Soyombo

39:10

For a number of media houses, the strategy is to be compliant. We don't want the trouble of government if government says don't use my soccer don't don't use my soccer, even if that's what happened. So you have journalists and media houses in that group. That's not gonna have to ruffle the feathers of government. We just do as they say with minimal minimal angst in government places. And then you have a lot where you have majority but you have a few who are saying regardless of all antics of the government the truth has to be reported. The journalism associations are shaking in their responsibilities. The Nigerian guild of editors in Nigeria Union of Journalists, and it is impossible for them. Because traditionally, these are organizations that media establishments that are always chummy with the government of the day. So you cannot be frolicking with government and then be in a position to properly or the government to account for the shrinking of, of the media space. Thank you,

Meera Selva

40:34

and what help do you need from the international community? There's two questions here. Firstly, what support can be given by the international community? And the second question from Alex Murray from the BBC, which is, what do you think the role of international news organizations particularly should be in supporting and reporting on salt in solidarity with Nigerian journalists? And is it better to amplify existing reporting or to replicate it and the danger with replicating it for the sass protests, for example, is that it excludes or drowns out the Nigerian voices

Fisayo Soyombo

41:06

Okay, so first question, let me answer this, because I remember what can be done. I think that for instance, the N Sasebo test offered an example of how quickly these are quickly. In contrary results can happen if there is international coverage. I'll just say international newspapers should show more interest in Nigeria should show more interest in what is happening. Should commission more independent stories of what's happened in Nigeria should give Nigeria more more visibility into papers because at the end of the day, fact is that the Nigerian government respects the international media more for obvious reasons. For instance, this the misinformation minister was talking about the reports. And we'll see CNN and other newspapers, CNN and other newspapers, just because CNN did. It had written story about what happened on the ninth of October 2020. So I think that basically inspirational platforms can do it to give more attention to the corridor, Nigeria, to investigative journalism in Nigeria, you know, not just the daily news reporting, but also in Diggle, you know, commissioned by a journalist to give them more time I mean, it's a fine balance between regular production of stories and the in depth investigations that take more time, you know, and also collaborate more with with journalists, not affiliated with them, but had been critical stuff. I will be very open to doing stuff like this with international platforms because no matter how solid your work is, as a Nigerian journalist it's it's there is more government attention, if it's published by an empire, the same report that you publish in the Nigerian paper gets government attention, but it's different if exactly that same story gets published by CNN by Reuters, but other than AP or AFP, the government always is more interested in its international image. So that's one two, what do I need? So I wanted to get it what do I need personally, or what do I think journalists need?

Unknown Speaker

43:37

Here's your chance, both. Both.

Fisayo Soyombo

43:39

So what do I need? Okay, let me go with with the public face. From the international media, it's maybe I can speak for what was what my colleagues need, maybe I can speak for myself. What I need is always an opportunity to get out. If I run into trouble when I say get, I mean, get out momentarily. There's trouble. How can I just get out for a week? And then come I always want to be in Nigeria. I was wanting to live in Nigeria. My work is needed. Here in Nigeria. I don't have ambitions or location I've got ambitions of living in the US or whatever. But I do know that it's important for you to have instant opportunity to be able to live if required, and then come back quietly and continue. Excuse me after my prison story. That was a meeting that Nigeria in mediation headquarters and they were talking about arresting me and using some provisions of the law, to get me to say that I was communicating with the inmates which is a breach of the laws and then they were going to arrest me until a social media movement. keep Fisayo safe aspect if it's obviously started, and for the hands of the government released a statement released a statement saying oh, they're not going after these journalists is not true. We want to work hand in hand we seem to see if the 10s he stated in his story are true and we can work together more than three years now. No one from government has contacted me it's clear. It was a statement that was released just out of out of that pressure. So you can have to go underground for roughly two weeks. You know by can happen that you are in trouble for a story you don't that the government does not like who can you pick your phone and call and we can get out as quickly as as possible. I think that's what is what is most important to me. Again, that kind of and also who are the people that if that were to happen to me were the people that will speak for me if DSS were to pick me up to the who are the people internationally who would speak for me, when when our election were published. Sarah reporters was arrested by the government because it was a convenient a protest revolution now, you know, and he was detained. It took the US legislature of speaking out for the government through then to then to then realism and allow the child to continue as normally as it should. So it's it's even for them for the people in government who don't like critical journalism. One of the considerations before they take on any journalist is kind of backing does he have if you pick this guy, or what kind of international environment are we going to suffer? What kind of national outrage are going to suffer? If he looks like oh no, there's nothing the guy and if it feels look, there's going to be a lot of trouble. This is going to be Reuters. We have to be babysitters again. CLM. CPT is going to be talking Reporters Without Borders going to be talking this is this is where the massive and then this is more caution.

Meera Selva

46:59

It's good to know that organizations have such a direct impact. And you talked about the social media movement that keeps the sale free who went where did that start from your supporters, your friends from outside the country inside the country.

Fisayo Soyombo

47:12

Nigeria from the likes of the so on called the grid Oracle on Twitter is a Nigerian quite popular on Twitter who happened on the information and tweeted that I had to run and then other people pick it up. And I can't say exactly who who conceived that hashtag when I picked it. Up and the hashtag standard so you started in country. Thank you.

Meera Selva

47:48

So in country and it's did it grow internationally as well? No. Yeah, okay. Thank you. Nigeria is elections coming up next year. And then, you know, we're the country's really at the moment of kind of another level of democratic debate and in so many ways, I'm just interested to know what you think about the outlook for Democratic Change in Nigeria in 2023, up to 2024 because there are so many secessionist movements are springing up at the moment, so many protests, what's going on?

Fisayo Soyombo

48:22

I'll see gloomy outlook. And I'm not talking about the the possibility of a split, you know, based on what what what the likes of IPOP as the indigenous people of Biafra and the auto nation I say, I don't think like that is going to break up. I think Nigeria is such a complex country that when it looks like all hope is lost, you just find something still binding us together. That's why we are the one of the happiest people in the world. Despite all our problems, you know, but in terms of change. Now, we have two ruling parties that are both been tried and tested, and a field change is not going to happen. In Nigeria, until we find a leader who is not those villains, but has a conscience for the people. And it's not going to happen in those two parties. People have questions in those two parties are never going to get the opportunity to be president in 2023 or maybe in 2027. So what is the alternative alternate voice coming from whoever wants to displace a brewery or Tinubu today, should already be actively in our faces by now and we don't have anything like that, which was a problem we faced in 2015. You had the people who offer themselves as the alternative to PDP and APC came up just a few months to the election in such a big state 36 states. How many states are you going to cover in that time? So frankly, speaking, anyone thinking about sound democratic change, where the balance in Nigeria should be talking 2027 I honestly feel 2023 is a lost cause. Because the next president is going to emerge from either the PDP, the party that root for so long, that stole from the people for so much, and for so long, and with impunity. And then we have an APC that promised us a clean Nigeria without corruption, but has not been able to deliver the promise to stem the tide of Boko Haram attacks. Yeah, a lot of progress is that border groups have sprung up, and Nigeria is insecure. Two parties that are both had their fair share. of the presidency. And I've both filled Nigerians and one of them will be in PI three, two and three, and will be led by one of the main actors of the situation we'll find ourselves in the people who will be the person will be president in 2020 is the one of the people who have been around for so long people who contested the past you know, there is no breath of fresh air, either with from within those parties or from outside. So when I talk about get your PVC vote APC out, it's still like choosing between the devil and the deep blue sea and none of them is palatable.

Meera Selva

51:47

Again, going back to journalism and the quality of political journalism in Nigeria because often you have this kind of scenario that you described, because journalists have themselves framed the political narrative in such a way that there's only space for two, two parties of into established parties to fight it out and the newer movements of the new personalities don't get, don't get airtime. To never they're not going to be in your face in this way. Do you think that's fair in Nigeria? Do you think journalists

Fisayo Soyombo

52:18

think that's the problem? I don't think it's immediate. It's not the job of the media to popularize candidates. You know, people want to report this one report. What is the job of the candidates to make themselves visible? The problem is usually that they do it at the last minute, do it without the thought without solving the funding problem. And it's because the intellectual class and this is often the problem with the intellectual class. It's not only about the greatness of those ideas, it's not only about the sincerity of purpose, you have to ask yourself one critical question, what we need to take the the voters election or the voting population comprises largely of RT stands, the middle class I don't often vote the Speak pronounce, you can feel you can run away. The welders, the work advisors, the shoe makers, the boss conductors, boss, divers gatekeepers, those are the people who come out to vote, but these are not people that we know you by reading about the New York Times are important on the guardian. So you have to ask yourself, what we need cost me to go to the hinterland to go to the villages to go to those worried it cost me to take myself there. It's a lot of money to first have to find the solution for that. to first have to solve the money problem. You have to ask yourself, the person who became president in 2020 in 2019, how much did he spend the one who became president 2019 How much did he spend? And what is my funding plan? You want to become president in 2023 You probably should have spent the last three years trying to solve the funding problem. And then you're coming out and you can go round, but when you come out the alternative voices one year to 2019 election, they didn't even know the party's on IT platform they will be contested. And people vote parties, not individual's party symbols and your topic against the party symbols. But one year to an election. You don't even know the party you're running on and you want to win. So it's not enough to come up with the sincerity of popples the grandness of idea you also have to be ready to do the dirty work and the dirty work is to take yourself to those places where people are going to vote. So you need time for that and you need money for them. If you can't solve those two problems, then you can't blame the media.

Meera Selva

54:52

Open up this very direct conversation we have. Kingsley today, Mahalo, a political economist who's running for president I think in 2023 speaking at Oxford tonight at the Martin School, and there's a question from fikayo I could I could care Dalu from stairs business saying what advice would you give him if you had any

Fisayo Soyombo

55:14

kinks the more gallu first, you have to solve the following problem. A former CBN Deputy Director, he's not likely to have made the money to campaign nationwide. He first has to look for people who believe in Him nationally and internationally, who will solve that funding problem. But a model that the intellectual class recognizes because the reading because they see the clarity of his thoughts is not going to win the 2020 election if the house or man in can in Kaduna, who does not understand English does not meet with him physically. It put us at the town meeting, wherever. So it's not enough to be brilliant to have international connections, the funding and I suspect that for people like him that the funding problem first has to be sold because Nigeria is such a big country and yellow get to cover it in such short time without the people are contesting against the waters that they have. Talking about ruling parties are talking about people who quite frankly have stolen a lot of money over the years. So you can't steal money like that because you're supposed to videotape voice and even if you wanted to, you don't have political power yet and so you have to go and look for that clean source. It's important. I say, you know, anybody who has not solved the funding problem and is serious about winning, has no business contesting you know, I would rather Kingsley Morgan. If he hasn't sold before then I would rather he stays away from 2020 election uses next and use the next four years to build the funding base. I show up in 2027. You know, I mean, worst case scenario a few days to election you find I didn't politicians who buy bags of rice bradington to their names, give it to the poor and uneducated. We can sit there and talk about oh, what are the future of Nigeria looks like look like what's the future of journalism? What's going to happen to democracy, freedom of speech, shrinking media space, they don't understand all this. The man who has not going to school does not understand the meaning of media space does not understand the meaning of accountability does not understand cyber law. Why says a bag of rice, nice way to food you can't blame him. You can't blame you can't ask of people what you haven't given them, people who are poor and only an uneducated are not in the position to make conscientious decisions. But I'm going to vote for those guys because that will give them a bag of rice. Now you have to give them that bag of rice to have I'm not talking about both what by it's the reality among the people who can reason along the lines of the plausibility of your campaign. You don't need to party people who are broke and only poor and don't know where the next meal is going to come from. They're not going to listen to your ideas are going to need money to get people like that on your side.

Meera Selva

58:47

Great. Thank you so much. So there's been we'll make sure that message gets to him. But thank you so much for spending this hour with us as well. It's been really terrific to speak to you. And your reporting is extraordinary. I recommend everyone looks up your your reporting. You want the Kirchdorf awards, as well. This year for your work. And we're going to stay on the theme of investigative journalism next week. We're speaking to three reporters who worked on the Pandora papers and will Fitzgibbon from ICI J. ELISA LOPEZ from Manila Philippines Center for Investigative Journalism. And Omar Chima, the Pakistan investigative reporter at the news, international Pakistan to talk about this other extraordinary cross border collaboration. And so do join us then but in the meantime to say thank you so much for your time again, and safe reporting. What

Fisayo Soyombo

59:33

were you such a pleasure to be here? Thank you. I thank you to all the participants. Thank you.

Unknown Speaker

59:39

Thank you. Take care everyone.

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