Pitches That Piss Off Podcasters Ep #3 Season 1 Finale with Mai-kee Tsang & Jordan Gill from Systems Saved Me
8:11PM Mar 21, +0000
Speakers:
Mai-kee Tsang
Jordan Gill
Keywords:
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pitches
jordan
guest
person
topics
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audience
trina
programme
business
strategy
listen
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host
Hello everyone, and welcome to the season one finale, our pitches that pissed off podcasters This is a new series in 2023, where I really wanted to give a behind the scenes look inside the pitches that podcast has actually received some of these pitches do piss podcasters off. But today with our special guests, we have a bit of a twist. Now Jordan being the kind solver she is. She said to me, when I asked her to be a guest. I was like, she was like, Is it okay, if I haven't been pissed off by pitches, but I just I really want to help those under people understand, like, why their pitches aren't landing and I was like, You're such a kind soul. You're part of your like, like I show a bit of my, my, my wild fireside when it comes to pitches that look like mine, but she's just as welcome. So I'm super excited to have Jordan here. So Jordan, would you like to unmute yourself and share with folks why you decided to be a guest, actually, because you could have been doing anything else today. But you chose to shop with us?
Yeah. So well, when Mai-kee asked me to do stuff, I'll take it under more consideration than other things. Because I know her heart her values, the people that she is connected with are people that I'm also going to get along with and that are really going to vibe with what I have to say. So I do take when Mai-kee Tsang asked me to do something a little bit more, I'll pay attention to it a little bit more in that realm. But why I had to do it was because what I love about making is that she's really, like supportive and helping when it comes to these pitches. Like there's people who are like, in the camp of here's this template, and like, don't change it, don't mess with it, just copy paste. And when we talk about and I'll show different ones that we've gotten, like, as a host, I can tell and when I have that it just doesn't feel as good. And so we make I was like, well, you'll you come on and talk about things that piss you off. It's like, again, like she said, I'm like, I don't really know, it takes a lot for me to get pissed off in general in life. So but just little things that like are annoying or like unfortunate. Like, those are the things where I'm like, I get more like sad than mad per se. And so I was like, Well, this is, and again, this doesn't really make sense for me to share it to my audience per se. It does point them to make a but I always like opportunities where I get to share different things behind the scenes of my business that aren't exactly aligned with like, my offers per se or like have a purpose. But so that's why I said yes. Because firstly make a impartially because, again, this is something that obviously we have in our business, because we do have guests on our show. But that it wouldn't make sense for me to just like talk about it to my people, because I don't have like anything really aligned with that otherwise.
Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. And for the very kind words as well when you said like, oh, it takes a lot to piss you off. I thought to myself, me too. And for me it is podcast. Right? It's just one of those things that it just really like, ah, definitely gets me on a soapbox. But today it's not about me because I can ramble about that all day long today is all about do it in perspective. So before we do get into those juicy pitches, I just want to give a bit of background as to who Jordan is for those of you who actually don't know Jordan yet and like how can you not just fall? Right So Jordan Gill like this is the official bio right? So Jordan Gill is a seven figure business strategist whose mission is for high achieving and business owners to prioritise rest without sacrificing revenue. Yes to more of that, please life first. That is a a quote that I've heard you say before that, Oh, yes. Like I have a life first business, right? Yes, yes, yes. She's helped over 400 coaches and consultants work with clients only four days a month with VIP days, which is not spreading the gospel about VIP days. She's working on one of her 1000 piece jigsaw puzzles. With Jigsaw buddies. I love the jigsaw puzzles to travelling around the world we have with her husband and bonus, Stan, and that is federal, super, super awesome. But also in a recently Jordan, I think before this bio was submitted, you've actually made quite a shift in your business as well. Do you want to share a bit more about that shift behind your latest free brand and also what's coming up in September?
So yeah, we're in an interesting, messy middle, if you will. Where, for about us two and a half, technically three years literally, like three days ago. I launched my demo day programme, which was where we supported service writers, coaches, consultants and building out and selling a virtual VIP day, which is just a one day offer up your services. So one day websites, one day copywriting for sales pages, one day event strategy, stuff like that. I had the absolute honour of having over 500 clients go through our programme the past three years, just wild, it was a wild ride. I feel like I'm still kind of coming down from it all. But it was a great honour it was it was awesome. And in October of this, of this last year, which I share again, even in my podcast is that October, I was so for my doctor that I was too stressed. And then I need to sit down, take several seats. Because of my cortisol levels, I have chronic illnesses. And so I have to really manage my energy well. And again, I don't like to call it a mistake. But a lesson that I learned last year was that I over hired. And that caused a lot of stress for me, because I care about people. And so when I have so many people to care about, and yet things aren't working right. Within the team, it really causes me a lot of stress. So, at that moment, I really realised, okay, if the most stressful thing to me right now, is my team and not everyone on my team. And not to say teams are bad. But again, for me, and where I am best able to manage my stress levels. If the most stressful thing is how big my team has become, I need to cut some people on my team. And the people I would need to cut on my team or on the programme delivery side. Because that was where a lot of programme delivery and sales were like kind of and again, they did well at their jobs. But interpersonally and values wise, it was not a match. And so that made it difficult because they're good at their jobs. So it's like, why would I let them go. But it just wasn't, it wasn't a good fit for me. And so I if I was letting those go, I needed to either completely shift my programme or, again, just make a really big adjustment. And so I just realised, okay, I actually want to make my direct method self study. So you can still purchase a curriculum. But as far as like poaching community, all that stuff, we have to let that go. That was a very big shift. You know, in the last few years, it was like $3 million, like that was the bulk of our revenue. And so most people would be like, What are you doing, but that's all about alignment. And again, why Mai-kee And I get along so well is because when something's not aligned, you need to make an adjustment, right? Because otherwise the alignment will come in a way that is worse shock to your system than than if you just actually evolved the alignment in the first place. So so we've been shifting, and I've been feeling called to talk more about a few things, but really kind of different ways of doing business that are for people who are very, very time constrained or energy constrained, and their businesses. So again, I don't make a talks about capacity, I'm very passionate about that as well, where if you are caregiving for family, if you are have chronic illnesses, and you can only work so many hours a day. Those are the people I really get lit up about and like to show alternative ways to do selling to do marketing and to do delivery, that aren't as taxing on your actual like physical and energetic health. So we are shifting the Titanic. That's how it feels. But we're getting there, we're getting close. And so on September is make your mark Live, which is an events, all around networking connection, but also making those really hard decisions in the spirit of alignment. So one of the talks that we have is is how to let go of the good to be ready for the great because I think we may all have had to do things where it's like, well, this is good. Like there's nothing that's like necessarily bad or unsuccessful about it, but it's not in alignment anymore. And so therefore I'm having to make shifts. And so those are the types of conversations I really love to have Netflix when we're going on and make your mark which is in September in Dallas, to interview people in person and about 800 virtually. So we're excited, picks up
big stuff indeed and props to you and your team for moving the Titanic because letting go of such a suitable programme in favour of your health and well being and just really modelling that for the rest of your audience is not an easy feat. So definitely and I kudos to you for all of this and for everything that you just shared and info about your event. I mean, I'll be sure to put In the links when this recording is going to be out for so don't you worry for those of you who are watching this live or watching this recording, make sure you have those links if you want to connect with Jordan that way. Okay, awesome stuff. All right, fair. I think we are at that the cusp of you know, this, this whole shindig was pitches that if it's not piss off, what would be the what would be like the placeholder word for that? But anyway, the Jordan, the Jordan version of the podcast. Hey, Jordan, I'm just gonna totally, you know, places in your hands. So I've enabled screenshare if you want to use that, I'll be limiting the chat. I may be off camera sometimes if my internet a bit shaky. If I drop off, I will come back.
Is it up? Yep. Take it away. Appreciate it. So So yeah, I'll pull up some of the ones in a minute. But I think I want to like, right, sign this appointment. Thank you. Grace. Yes. For sent, there we go. That was like perfectly where it didn't have said it better myself. So I want to like lay the the some things that I think, as this podcast host talk about a lot that I think would be helpful for people and to gain insights on how just like the podcasting world works, and where a lot of people will get their guests because of comfort levels because of values match stuff like that. So one thing that I have talked to a lot of podcasters about and even with myself, has been helpful when choosing podcast guests is that I like to interview other podcasters and meaning that the person on the other end hosts their own podcast, so I don't have to necessarily worry about of course, someone's bringing slot machines, right? Yes, perfect. Yeah, like I. The reason that I would think that this happens a lot is because when you're interviewing somebody, and when you want a really good conversation to happen, and if someone's not used to having those conversations as often as podcasters are, then sometimes your episodes are not up to the calibre of excellence that you want it to be. That's not to say that people who aren't podcasters cannot bring the level of excellence. However, again, with my own experience, and speaking to other podcasters this is something that is being talked about in the world, this is something that is being shared. And so this is not a a this isn't a plug to like have your own podcast in order to get guesting. However, I will say that it may help if you're getting a brick wall, right with your pitches and things. And so that's something that again, I just feel like is talked about so much behind the scenes, but it hasn't been expressed outwardly per se. So if you do have a podcast, even in your pitches and things like that, if you mentioned the fact that you have your own podcast that may actually help boost you. When somebody is looking at it, it's like oh, okay, like great. Like she, he she they get it, like they have the right mic, they understand sound, they understand, like, how this is gonna flow, they may be more open to off the cuff questions, right? Because I think to the podcasting, it's like, I can be asked any question and I may need a three or four second thinking period, but I can, I can pick it up and roll with it. Whereas again, for people who aren't used to doing that many conversations may not be able to keep up with the off the cuff stuff, and whatnot. So it just can get really, really tricky. And so I I think that that needs to be said, and then something else that needs to be said is understanding the type of podcasts that it is. So we will get a lot of, I guess, pitches that are for more like stories. Like how I started my business, all that stuff. And like that's not the type of podcasts that I have. I will tell stories every once in a while, but it's very like 12345 or how to or things like that. And so when people pitch a story, that's like the easiest no for us, because that's just not the podcast that we have. Right? So having a range of topics where it's like, okay, if this is a how to podcasts, these are things I can talk about. If this is a story podcast. These are the stories I can bring up. If this is a origin story, podcast. These are the things I can talk about. So having that flexible ability and knowing how to spin your stories and your topics to the type of podcasts that it is, I think, is really beneficial. Also, with that is, when it comes to this, I don't know if you've been seeing this lately. So I'd love to get your thoughts, but there's quite a few podcasts, I would say, like, LM een eemaan of the mistakes I made. Some of these other ones, they're they're, they're very, they want the exclusive story. So it's taken a very journalistic approach. Yeah, maybe you're seeing this too. So it took in a very journalistic approach, which I love, actually, my background was in journalism. So I love that, like, we just pitched which, again, we haven't really had to pitch necessarily in a while, for podcasting, or really ever, but we're really wanting to, again, just like make ourselves available to different opportunities. Yeah, I love mistakes that made me Vaughn is doing a phenomenal job. Like, so good. And we picked for her. And I wanted to talk more about this over hiring that I talked about earlier today, and I wanted to share and is a really great space to and she's gonna ask really great questions, and it's gonna be a really great conversation. And so then it's like, okay, I have whatever and it's exclusive, right? And I put that in quotes. It's like, I can go to any Mon, I can go to an LLP. And I can go to someone so and say, I don't want to talk about this on anyone else's podcast, I only want to talk about it with you. Right? And they can get the exclusive which also will bring my audience into it more, because the exclusive is there. Right? So maybe I have even seen us, like often like what's the journalistic approach? I have
I have and I there's just a couple of things that one, I would love to recap all the things that you just said, for those of us who are just following along and trying to find what the core gem is. So I love what you said here about how your podcast in particular is very as much more one to three strategy based, right? Because I distinctly remember when I pitched myself to your podcast, that I knew that, like, yes, you'd be interested in the overarching like concept of sustainable visibility. But it would need to be broken down in a way that's tangible in a way that your audience can really catch on to like ways that they can implement it in their business not having to be this big, abstract, nebulous thing that they can freely wander in forever. It had to be something grounded with like a step by step by step approach. And so there's something that I call it the story to strategy scale, where like, there are some podcasts, like you said, right, a pure story, just like humans, right. And there's some that's purely strategy that little to no story whatsoever. They just want what the teacher, you know, something to teach. And there's some that's going across in the middle where it's like part story and part strategy, right? So when you're looking at a podcaster pitch to like really looking into like, okay, what are these episodes actually about? Are they about topics that this person has taught everywhere else? Or is it an exclusive story, right? So see where it is on the story strategy scale, and it's really going to impact the way that you pitch yourself to people that like you said, Yeah, I think there are some more journalistic podcasts coming up. Like I love mistakes that made me I've listened to pretty much every single episode, because I do love that exclusive story. And I, in my opinion, like, take it or leave it, I believe, the story based podcast that you're on, are getting more beneficial to increase audience loyalty, as opposed to necessarily and finding new people, because some people may not care about your story respectfully, until they know what you can do for them. Right. So there's a time and place when to go for the strategy based podcast versus the story based podcast. I think story based ones come a little bit later in your journey, when you've established yourself a little bit more, because then folks are gonna want to know the behind the scenes exclusive stories, the the over hiring angle that you're bringing, like, I'm sure you're gonna get the guest lot anyway, Jordan, I think I saw him and like, oh, Jordan was already like a dream guest anyway. And the team pitches which is great. So um, yeah, I just wanted to say that about the stories or strategy thing. I'm curious. Have you like, Have you experienced the same thing? Or do you have an additional thoughts about Jordan and for anyone who's here with us live right now? Feel free to chime into the chat? I'm very curious about your thoughts.
Yeah, that's that's a good point. Yeah. Like how you framed it. Yeah, I would say that for sure. Like I would say up until the last year or so. I've been in business seven years. So last like six years I've been very formulaic, very which makes sense because I am system save me right but have been very formulaic, very strategy oriented. It type topics and things. And probably the last year, people have been just really intrigued on how I do business and how I lead my team, different things. And so story has become much more prevalent and helpful later on. So I didn't make that connection until you just said it maker. But I think that is like something that like, not to say you can't do stories it beforehand or whatever. But like, I think, yeah, when you have established yourself in an industry or in an area, like, pretty much everyone has, has heard a lot of the things that you've talked about in that in that strategy side. And so people now are like, like, who are you? And like, how did you get here? And like, were some of the mistakes that you've made? Or that made you or like, you know, those sorts of things? So I think that, um, I think that stories do come in later on, again, not that you can't do stories now. But people like to know, like, that you know, what you're talking about? When it comes to area of expertise a lot of times and they're like, Okay, I want to go deeper, right? They have to know you, like you trust you, right, that whole thing. So. So yeah, I would say,
brilliant. I'm curious, do you want? Do you want to save questions towards the end? Or do you want to get out too? Alright, perfect. So we have one thing, what about illustrating the strategies with stories, for example, so when you're pitching, or when you receive pitches or the podcast yourself? How do you feel when the strategies that you're looking for in folks are actually wrapped with a story, but then how does that
land for you? You know, I'm, I'm okay with that. And I think that there's illustrations, there's analogies, there's like, metaphors, there's different ways that you can technically share stories that may not be the illustrative detailed stories that, again, are for the other podcasts. So I would say, that's fine. But in the pitch, like, again, I want to see a number or I want to see how to, and basically Trina who's on my team, they can Oceania. Trina is kind of trained that if they don't say how to or if they don't have like five ways, three strategies, something, then again, it's gonna take us time and energy to figure out, okay, she's teaching on this, what are the five ways she could talk about what are the three strategies and like, we don't, again, we don't have the capacity to just figure that out for every single person that pitches for us. So. So yeah, I would say that it's cool. And you don't necessarily need that in the pitch. But again, this is very specific to me, and our business and how we do things. So also just keep that in mind.
Yeah, I think that's a really good point. It really depends on the kind of podcast that you're pitching to, with, what kind of episodes they even have, because you don't know the relationship they have with their guests, whether they've been friends for goodness knows how long when they are totally fine being pitched a story because they know who they are and what they can do. And so this really does, it's very contextual, with how long you've known the person and the value you can bring to this current season in the podcast life, and everything like that. So everything that Jordan saying is 100% valid. And also, you know, please just like take everything, like knowing what the context is behind it context is king or queen. That's like saying, All right, so we have one more question. And then let's get into the pitches afterwards. So one of them is I've never heard of those podcasts before. Are there any list of podcasts I should check out? I can answer this question as well, Jordan, but if there's anything that comes to you, please do
know that there's lists like I just, I tend to, like the podcasts that I like, I'll scroll all the way down. I'm gonna see if I can do this in a fast manner. So okay, I literally was just talking to Alice about mistakes that made me so here we are. So our mistakes like if you go up to podcasts, like on Apple, right, so this is Imams, you can scroll all the way down and all of a sudden at the bottom, like you might also like and so then you can scroll and see like what other episodes or what other podcasts people are listening to the also like that podcast so that's usually where I go down the rabbit hole and find other shows that I like. So yeah, I probably should do like what am I listening to scenario? I feel like my people would like that. So but um, but yeah, it's usually just a bit of a rabbit hole. Yes. I have a better like list. But yeah.
Well, first of all, I'm not actually the first strategy that I teach my students inside of the ultimate podcast guests. The workshop series I call it interconnected podcast and exactly that, go to a podcast that you like listen to on the Apple link, not the not their website link, the Apple link, because Apple has already got this intricate network of other podcasts that are linked to each other for various reasons. So it depends on the niche of their podcasts, perhaps, or just like, the relevancy in terms of you know, their ranking, there are so many different categories that they're kind of all connected by so that interconnect departments is definitely how I researched a lot of podcasts. And another way, this one's a lot more manuals a lot more organic, but I call it peer at your peers. And when you see your peers showing up on podcast, where they are showing, like pretty much their whole story. And you're curious like, oh, well, we're in adjacent industries or in the same industry. Why don't I check it out and see if there's anything that I can do that. So one's very technical and one's very, like manual or gas. But both can totally work. So hope that answers your question. I've got my got mind blowing emoji in the chat. It's good. All right. Yeah. So that's all the questions for now. So I'll keep an eye on the chat. But Jordan, let's dig into the goodness that you brought us today.
CSS, yes. Okay. So let me share my screen and get into some of these. So let's see. And I think all of these now that I'm looking at them. Yeah, I think all of these were people that had somebody else pitching for them. We don't get many of people pitching themselves, which actually, again, I would say a lot of podcasters prefer, I don't like to say that necessarily, because there is value in someone else doing it. Who knows, like, what they say that was like an asterick. Because, again, I'm not saying that people who aren't agency folks, I'm not saying that they're better at pitching. However, I think that just like when, you know, you're putting yourself out there you like a personal response back. It's very similar to that. And, again, I put the asterisk there also, because make a is awesome at pitches. And I do know some people who are really great at pitches as the person who is doing the pitching for people. But I would say more times than not a lot of agencies are just kind of doing the spray and pray method. And that is not what I'm, whether it's you doing it or at agency doing like both sides of it, have done that. And you can tell, and it just doesn't feel good. So that's why I put the asterisk there. Now, it's Sunday, and I need its permission to record to my device. I just, I just want to share my screen
I can send you this recording.
I don't know, I like I thought I had screen share, but maybe I hit record number. Okay.
As you are sharing, just like sharing the screen. And as it's going to take a moment to pop up, I just do want to say there. Same with the Asterix. When it comes to agencies, there are some that can do it really, really well don't get me wrong, but from the majority of podcasters, I've always had conversations with about the best and worst pictures. When it comes to the worst column. It's nine out of 10 times from agencies. And that's because of the volume approach that they have to do. Well, they don't have to do it. But they that's their model, the spray and pray approach is because they are on doing it on a volume basis. They have a database of pre existing podcast they that they determined by their niche, and how it closely matches the client as best as they can. However, I've received plenty of these pictures which I've shared in my programmes I've shared openly as well, I'm obviously anonymizing. But the key here is that they often stack guests, one on top of the other, like they just put their bio, they don't share why it's personalised. They're like, Oh, here, all of our clients here pick, or they just do super impersonal jobs. So it can really land the wrong way and it can burn a bridge before it can even be built. So that's my personal experience actual experience. With pitches from agencies, there's only like two that I can actually think of like okay, they can do a decent job. But there's actually very few done for you pitch processes. This is why I teach DIY with my ultimate podcast gifting is up to you. So if you're interested in that, I'll pop that link as well below this video as well if you're interested because this is why this whole series existed in the first place because I really want to share what these what pitches are sorry, what podcasters are looking for in pitches, and how you can do it DIY if You want to, but yeah, we have the screen up and running. So let's get into it.
Oh, wow. Okay, so I did not anonymize. So sorry about that. But I don't think anyone is here who I got these from. So it's fine. So okay, this is number one. And so again, it's guests versus some save me content creator keynote. It's like, okay, this is really general. And I could think of like, 100,000 people that would say the same things. So it's not, it's not catching your eye, really. But it's like, okay, I know what this is. So I do appreciate the upfront notice of what you want from us. So I, like I know, Trent, I was like, Okay, great. This is gas for a podcast. So I know what I'm walking into. But there should be some sort of intrigue here. But again, it's not the worst subject line we've ever gotten. But just again, I'm I'm being particular because I can. So first of all, this is like chunky, and I've just copy pasted this. This is really chunky text. So like, it's like, I want to go through this and go like this, because I can't even read it, how she did it. You know what I'm like, I'm just more of like a spatial, I'm a skimmer by nature. And I would say Trina is too. And so, again, having big chunks of text automatically make us not want to read it. And I know it's very sad and shallow. Byron, and I
know the copywriter in me hurts. Like speaking this chunk, because yes, formatting does matter. So right there with,
ya know, I'm like, Listen, I'm just gonna, like clean this up, because it's driving me crazy. Okay, so things that are, like, cool. And whatever else is like, okay, like you've been featured before, she has a few ideas, we like to see that you have some ideas already, because we don't want to have to think about it. However, now when we get down to the ideas, already told y'all, we like numbers. And we like like how to specifics. I mean, sales, you want to talk about one of the most broad topics ever, on my marketing strategy systems, yummy systems and strategies, there aren't online marketing a lot like, so she doesn't really whittle down herself in any way or possessed or tickled my fancy, because I already know people personally and all of these, and so I would just have them as guest on my podcast rather than this random person. You know, so again, I'm talking candidly, because I can. So that's where it's like, okay. You know, I, I know that for a lot of other podcasts, I would say that people care about things like okay, we see Wells Fargo, we'll see discover, we see Capital One, like shiny company things. But those things don't really matter to us. If, again, I'm being just really honest, because we want you to bring really great value content. So regardless of if you have one Instagram follower, who's your mom, or you have 200,000 followers have a bunch of people. Like, we don't cater our, like speakers, or guest list, or anything like that. We don't pick them based off of audience size. So we care more about Okay, are you used to speaking on podcast? Is this going to be an enjoyable interview for Jordan? Or is she gonna be like, pulling teeth and like, it'd be painful. And they're going to bring value, right? So I don't I have no idea what value this person and I'm sure Amanda is wonderful. But I have no idea what value she could possibly bring to my show, like, zero clue. And that's never how you want people to feel. So again, if she had looked at the titling of our podcast, and like, saw that the majority of them are how to are a numbers. Better, she could have catered that and even if it would have been a little bit off or whatever it still would have, it still would have shown that she knows our show, and that she knows the types of things that we would want to talk about. So yeah, that's really again, like her pointing out of 60,000 Cool, cool, cool, but also we don't necessarily that's not a metric that like makes us you know, super excited. So I don't know if maker you have anything to say about this too.
Well set well, festival thank you for I think you all have our brains when you broke up the text or just, you know, putting it into like smaller paragraphs and things but yeah, the metrics that they did share was there very self serving as like, Oh, look at who we have is it comes from a place of like, Oh, you'd be lucky to have me because of how many people I have, right. And because of the flood of credit, I'm gonna quote, I'm gonna, like do little bunnies like credibility markers, because it is a big deal. Don't get me wrong for those who are featured in all of these incredible places I'm not, I'm not denying that whatsoever. However, that is not enough to bypass the fact that you still need to illustrate the value that you can provide a podcaster and their audience because that's what they they're going to care about. So the lack of personalization, the lack of relevancy and specificity in this is making it harder and harder for Jordan and her team to say yes, because here's the thing, like, here's for each and every one of you who ever want to get on a podcast one day, and you're the one sending pitches, you need to do everything you can to make it super easy for them to say yes. If you make it hard for them make and try to make them search for information about you, is already going to like less than their likelihood of saying yes to you. And I'm not saying that to be mean, I'm saying it simply because it's true. Right? Why would they go out of their way to make sure you're qualified guests when they don't even know you? Alright, so that's, that's all I have to say so far.
I know like, and again, it's like, when you see these very generic topics, again, I know several people under those categories that I already know, like, and trust that if I wanted somebody to talk about those things, I would just go to them. And so you have to overcome that with your specificity. Like McKay said, like, really thinking about and also kind of a hinge on this. And again, I don't know how this is for other podcasters. But I can only speak really to mine is like when we see I get really intrigued when I see a trademark sign. Mainly because it's showing like, oh, like they're wanting to ground themselves in this and they have there's intentionality behind what they're talking about. And it's not just, again, some random stuff about sales or some random stuff about hiring or whatever the case is. It's really like, okay, they've thought of a framework they've thought of, like how they do work in a concise, like digestible way. And that, like for sure, we'll put you over the edge for like intrigue, and like going further and trying to actually replying to you, and being like, okay, like, tell us more like, we're interested in that sort of stuff. So. So yeah, I would say, if you have a trademark, or you're going to get a trademark with a little TM on there, and that will help, at least again, for us. And that goes across, like if you want to speak on our stage, if you want to come on our podcast, stuff like that, like that's something that, again, Trina is trained with, as well as myself to just be like, oh, like I'm, again, like, it shows a level of commitment and depth to the work that you're doing. Because there's all these fly by night, people who are all the sudden experts, and all of a sudden, like, you know, are great at something. But what is the what is your thing? Like? What is it that like when I think of make i i think of visibility, but in like a deep aligned way. And that's because I don't remember your trademark off the top of my head. I think it's sustainable visibility. Yes. All right. All right. So like, I remember that because I'm like, huh, like, yes, like, there's so many visibility people out here. There's so many people talking about similar stuff to me, okay. And that's not a knock I make a that's like, again, she's in a good space. But I remember make a because of the depth of what she talks about. And like, she has the trademark that she is grounded in her framework. And so again, that makes it a much easier, yes, for me than somebody else who's like, I help with visibility. And that's it. That's all I have to go off of. Right. So it's like a little tip, a little fan.
Yes. And I just want to say like don't just wind up Putting teams on everything. On every statement. Come on. Like that everybody here like if you do have a framework work particularly well. I am going to say that where there is it doesn't have to be a visual framework. It can totally be like a what's the word look I'm looking for an anagram I think alliteration. Alliteration that this one I think Anna ground anyway, there is that there is a web anyway. You don't have to necessarily have a Is your framework but just basically something that is repeatable something that is one that you can apply, like, openly, not just like one very specific situation, but just something that people can, again, they can ground themselves with it. Instead of having, like an open abstract nebulous sort of thing like, like, give them the analogy that I like to use is, if you're an astronaut in space, you need a tether to the mothership, before you can explore open space, right? So open space is your big umbrella idea. But they need the tether to know that they can always go back and be like, Okay, I'm safe now. Like, I know that I can always come back to this, right. So your framework is like the mothership. And your overarching idea wherever your TM or your little r is, that's open space. And so
yeah, that was a really, yeah, that was a really good metaphor. I know. I shouldn't have said that, too. But I was like, Oh, that's so nice.
I have plenty. Trust me. I have lots of metaphors and analogies. But Jordan, I see a couple of questions in the chat, which would be
shorter questions. Alright.
So one of them was did you do okay, what are your thoughts on people not following or subscribing to the podcast? But they want to be guest on it?
We don't even check like that doesn't, I would say we don't even that doesn't matter. Like, doesn't matter that you understand our show? Yes, but we aren't. I don't even Can you check to see if people have subscribed to the show. Like, I noticed this whole thing about like ratings and reviews were like, take a screenshot of the review that you did, and like show that like you care, which is which reviews are very helpful. And like right now we're like climbing the charts. And so I'm like in a little bit of an obsessive thing about reviews. But I would say that doesn't like that doesn't put you over the edge as far as like, oh, just because she left a review or he left a review or they left a review. Now we should have them on our show. That doesn't have much weight for us. I don't know if it should but it doesn't.
Doesn't there's no like I say shoulda woulda COULDA, okay. Like each to their own. And I know that that's a that's a really good point. Because you can't see who's subscribed. It's not like YouTube. But if you have a YouTube channel, you can actually see like your subscriber count and things like that. But as actually as podcasters. We don't actually get to see that we get to see how many listens and downloads we get Sure, but not individual subscriber information. We don't get that we can't even possibly check anyway. But we can tell there are tells that you've listened to the podcast, and we can spot a fake from anywhere. And it's typically due to lack of specificity. And those super generalised things like Oh, my God, your show so amazing. I love your content. The last episode if they tried to be cheeky, your latest episode about insert episode name here was amazing. Like, no, don't just copy and paste the most recent episode we know you don't actually listen to you just referenced that without, again, any specific takeaways that you can only know if you listen to the episode. That's me, though, personally, like, I just get really riled up when someone tries to pretend they're a listener. Obviously, not anybody.
Yeah, I'm similar. I'm just like, it's okay. Like, I don't need like, everybody that like as a guest on my show, like, they absolutely don't need to be a listener. And I think that but I think I think that's what's what's being taught. So I see grace, like, that's what's being taught, right, like, so a lot of these things that Mike and I are talking about, like, these are all things that, generally speaking, are being told and taught as the way to do it. And so like, we've all done the things we've all tried to things and like, that's why we're here. So we're having this conversation is to again, like, adjust and move into a get a bit more of an intentional, strategic way to go about things. And I always, I don't mind when I'm like, I actually appreciate when people are forthright about what they want, versus again, trying to the times Hold on a second thought. So I don't mind that you want to be a guest on my show. Like I don't mind that you want to be a speaker, I don't mind that you're wanting something out of me in that realm. And I don't want you to feel like you have to show that you're like my biggest fan of all time to get that opportunity. You know, like, and I think that that that can sometimes get lost. It's like, okay, I have to show Jordan like, I've been following her for 10 years and like, which I wasn't meant business 10 years ago, but anyway, it could be okay, but you don't have to fluff it up necessarily like that. I would love to know if you've been In my community and like, again, you appreciate the work that I've done. But you don't have to go overboard and be like, I've literally binge listened to all 322 episodes of your podcast, which, again, whoa, I it's just, it's more or less just like, how you can provide value to my audience is value enough for me? You know, I'm saying like, I, I want a good conversation. Yes, just as the host, but my lens and our initial lens, but I say our because Trina really is the one who is filtering all of that right now. And what we are looking for are, is this valuable to the guest first? And then secondly, is Jordan going to enjoy the conversation? Right? So it's always value for first for us, it's always making sure our community and our audiences gonna enjoy and learn something. And then it's about me, like audience first than Jordan. So using that and like your pitches to, I think is key.
I think that's a really unique perspective, because a lot of podcasters only want to have folks who have actually listened to their podcast, but you're in a different position, and you'd like, well, they don't have to, it'd be great if they could, but so long as they bring the value. And there's actually a follow up question that I'll probably ask towards the end when we get to the q&a section, because I know you have at least another picture. But there is another question here. Is that would you send the topics in a title idea format? So I think what, what Lindsey is trying to say here is, when it comes to the topics that they propose, would it be ideal to have like episode ideas about what you could call the episode? Or is that too presumptuous?
No, I love that like that. That takes a little weight a load off of us. Because if I have to then okay, now I got to sit here and figure out a title and spend my time figuring out all this stuff for this like one podcast episode. Again, it's just like, I have other things to do. So if you can come up with a bomb title, like, go for it, I actually really appreciate that. And so there's Trina. So yeah, even though like again, I know I keep talking about like speaking and in podcasting, but again, they're kind of the same for us. But I mean, I changed every single person's title that they pitched for being a speaker on our stage, but they gave me like, 70 to 80%, which again, is going to be much better than me having to sit here and drum up something. Right. So I don't think I don't see it as presumptuous at all. I appreciate it. Heavily. I do the work for me.
Yes, exactly. Again, leading back to the idea that make it as easy as possible for the person on the other side to say yes to your pitch. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Hey, I think would you be do you want me to save some of the questions? For the end? Yeah, that's
cool. Yeah, I want to definitely share some some additional ones. So again, here we are.
Oh, gosh, another block another block.
Another block. I mean, here we are, like, it just it's hurtful to my whole soul. Okay, so, again, it's interesting. I don't know if these are from the same, same one, but different people. Okay. So again, it's like, we kind of already know what's happening here. So, so again, it makes sense that they're somewhat similar. But with so she had some of these, so that's why it's again, I was like, Oh, I think so it'll be helpful to just share this one. I'm just gonna ignore the spacing, but y'all know what, what it is. So I. So this, this one right here, like, I like where they're going with this sentence. But again, I would say that this is a very generic statement. So what I mean by that, is this a minute generic how they could have made it better is, again, I'm a journalism major. So I see there's like, two ands, and whatever else. So I'm like, but Okay, cut out, you know, maybe confused and just I feel overwhelmed. And maybe even talk about an area that they feel overwhelmed in. And then even a step by step plan is very generic, I would say, like, create a seven step plan or again, go through my done in a day method, or create a sustainable, sustainably visible plan. Like, that's where you can enter that TM situation and be like, Oh, this is different than any other step by step action plan. You know, I'm saying So that's this is an opera an opportunity to stand out. But instead, it's just like I'm glossing over it sort of thing. Okay, so let's get into this. So here are the topics and such. So these, again, are very, she does have some house shoes, which I appreciate. And at the same time, very generic, I could Google an answer to this. And if I can Google an answer to it, I don't want you on my podcast. If I'm just again, being very straightforward, it's like it these these all feel very doable. They don't feel special, they don't feel specific. And so like these all, it almost seems like they went into like a keyword situation, type some stuff in and then just like, put it in here, that's how surely it feels. And so I that's just not going to cut it. And how it could have been better. is, let's see. This one is a, this one is like a something that you could work with if like, again, like, instead of one key thing, I would have said something along the lines of let me just throw a comment over here. If I can, okay, so I would have said like the one I understood. Step backs,
like owners overload I've rewrite here.
But the one was understood, must understood stat, the business overlook, and, and reduces or something, right? So I like numbers. Because people understand numbers, people are attracted to numbers. And so whenever you can have a number in your, in your topics, it's, again, for our podcast, we know that people are drawn to that, but also, it again, gives it specificity. So again, this is very similar. I mean, I don't know if it's about sales, but the one misunderstood step that business owners overlook, and reduces your sales by 50%. I want to make sure that I'm not like doing whatever this is because I don't want to reduce my sales by 50%. I don't want to misunderstand something. Like I don't want to overlook something. So there's several things about this, that could have made this more enticing, right. So again, thinking through, and I'm sure Medicaid covers this too, but using like words, like very, um, like it's like you can I get you're trying to emphasise, but there's also words that are more emphatic, emphatic. How do you what
do you mean, descriptive or
energetic like to have more emphasis, right? Like, you know, misunderstood versus key, even, like, emphatic, thank you. So yeah, so just make it punchier. Make it compelling. And how you can do that is using words that have more weight to them than what you see all the time, right? Even when we look at the so again, this is like the most generic statement. Okay, so how to separate yourself from the competition, how to stand out how to not be in the CSA Mzs? How many times have we seen that said, over and over and over and over again, right? So, again, some how to like be the go to person, it's all the same. It's all the same. It's what everybody is saying all the time. And so instead, you could do something like how to create the Beyonce concert effect with your next launch. That'd be great. I would like to have the Beyonce concert effect with my colour, like, scrambling and like doing all this stuff, right. And so again, it's like it's intriguing, because it touches on you know, a little bit of pop culture if that's your thing. But again, really, it's talking about again, in your next launch, how do you make yourself so enticing that everybody shifts from like, whatever they were talking about, or whatever they were doing, do all of a sudden Beyonce tickets are available, put in, go all in, like throw my money at you sort of situation like that. That is it. is a better option there than this situation? Hopefully, that's helpful. So that's really some stuff that I wanted to share about this one. I think I have one more, if I can share that, too. Yeah. This is not from the same company. Um, so again, she did a little bit better, but, um, okay, so let's see, I think that this one is not. Again, too, too bad. But so again, I'm, I'm this person, and I'm like, this, this feels like very, like, we don't need this sometimes, sort of situation. It's just like, okay, whatever. And then, because it's like, great to meet you thrilled to be connecting, you're so awesome. Yay. And it's like, like, bring it down. I'm here for the excitement. And also we don't need I love the excitement, you know. So love to introduce you to this person. So again, this is pretty fluffy, heard it before, nothing special. Now, the timing. I did like this like audacious goals. That was interesting. And then, you know, she's been featured on some other podcasts, which is, again, helpful if she doesn't have her own podcast, because I know that she hasn't done this before. And it's not like brand brand new to the podcasting realm. So let's talk about her topics. Again. Now, she did preface it with like mindset and unscalable systems, it is helpful to see, okay, there's like two areas, cool, not seven, not 17 different areas, like two areas. And at the same time, these aren't in like the titling format. So again, if you have two different areas that you touch on, maybe mindset and systems to go, Hey, here's a mindset topic of like, again, like my I don't know, like invisible mindset blocks strategy, you know, for mindset, and five ways or whatever. And then a scalable systems, it's like, obviously, on the system, TV podcast, so people talk to me about their systems all the time. And one thing too, that I'll talk about, or I'll touch on is that the most common system that we have people pitching us on, is client journey, client management, client delivery client experience. And 98% of them all read the exact same, like, just the same doesn't matter like, and, like, enter anybody here. Right? So with this being systems, like which system, you know, like, get specific on, what's the summary, you want to talk about? What? Because, too, it's a little bit of like, it's not encroaching on eye space, necessarily. Because, again, like systems are everywhere, and everyone does them differently. But there's, like, it's so generic skeletal systems could be marketing system, that could be sales systems, it can be delivery systems, it could be financial systems, like we need to bring in that specificity here. So again, I need to understand what system you're talking about. And I don't want to have to ask the questions and go back and forth with you to figure it out. And we're not going to, because that's not our job, and they don't have the time. So again, I I wanted to show this one because too, it's it's interesting, if you have like a couple of things that you talk about, which is totally fine. And had she like come up with two titles for one for mindset one for systems that made sense. Maybe we would have had it on the show. But because it's in this very like two sentence generic notice. We can't do much with that. So wanted to touch on those one, two, and those are the three that I want to touch on.
And okay, so I'm definitely seeing a definite thread between the reason why they have been shown today. And most of it has been a lack of specificity, a lack of personalization, and that lack of it's just kind of like oh, why you Right? Like why? Why like out of the CSM, the same Z's that there actually is out there in the in the world, not just the online business world but yeah, Still world in general, why you? And speaker? There's a lot of generic statements that have been named that like, yes, it's relatable, but it's too relatable. Right? Who else can talk about it? Like, oh, is it Google apple? Oh, can someone else actually talk about this? Just like how you said, right? That if you already know someone in your network, who you already trust, you would have them on your podcast and not necessarily a stranger who's coming up with this, like, similar thing. So that's definitely what's coming up. For me. Anybody else in like, who's here with us live right now there anything that you also notice, in all of these pitches that you've seen today? As we as like, folks may or may not have any follow up questions or things like that. I'm just curious, like, as you actually share all of this out loud, Jordan, how are you feeling? Just seeing them again.
Right now it just yeah, it bubbles that up and brings it up? And you know, I am the host, Trina handles all of the like talking like actual like, she does what I'm telling you. And she does it based off of what exactly what I'm telling you. So we have a playbook literally on how to navigate and figure out what guests should be on the on the show. And so she has a system, no one is surprised. That is like, Okay, if they and it's oriented, very similar to what I said, where it's like, Okay, would you they have a topic that's going to bring value to our audience, yes or no? So no, it's an automatic. Now, if it's a yes, move it down the pipe. Okay, the next thing you have to look at is okay. Do they? Would it be an interesting conversation for Jordan, what I call it is like a Starbucks test. Like if Jordan was in Starbucks, and this person was there talking to her, would she be annoyed? Or would she, like want to sit down and like, continue the conversation? And that's like, literally, a test the trainer does? And then if it's no, she would not enjoy that conversation, right? Because there's some like, either air of arrogance, or do Chiness, or whatever the case is, like, No, thank you. But if it's like, oh, I think like they would vibe and jam and Trina will then look at sort of people's social media, they'll show kind of again, kind of started to navigate outside of the application, and also what she's doing kind of Starbucks test, and then also like a values check. So are they saying things that are aligned with diversity, inclusiveness? Connection, excellence, things that we stand for? And if not, then again, it's not going to be a good match for us? If so then like, trying to say like, okay, fill out like our podcasting form. And like, we'll figure out a time on Jordan schedule. So that's kind of our process. So regardless, if you're getting me or Trina is the exact same, and I trust Trina 110%, when it comes to choosing guests, on my podcast, there's really been maybe one or two in the early days of lunch when I was doing this, that might have slipped through the process that I was like, wow, that wasn't as enjoyable as I would have liked it, but it's fine. But other than that, like Trina is on it, and she knows exactly who I enjoy the types of conversations that we want to have. And so, you know, even though people are like, Well, Jordan has to know about me, I'm gonna literally ping you right back to a trainer. Like I'm literally it's like a ricochet, like, it's not even like you buttering up to me, and in some way is not going to bear any weights on if you get on the podcast. Because I'm not actually in charge of that. That's not part of my role. My role is to hosts. And so again, you are coming up toward like gatekeepers, or like, you know, the trainers of the world. That's also not a bad thing. Like Trina is look like, Trina wants to have good guests. Like her whole point is bring great guests on. Like, if you find someone that's interesting and helpful, bring them on, like, you know, and so she's not. She's not looking to just like bat people away all the time. And she is just looking for, again, to cut through the noise and find the best folks for our show. So I think that people get really nervous or antsy about it being like somebody else besides the host. Right. But again, I think that in a lot of ways, it's really helpful because again, most likely that person has been trained around what to look for. And so you're getting the same experience that you would if it was the host, in my experience anyway, would you say the same?
Yeah, I mean, I have had an invite only, not policy, but I've taken an invite only approach since last year. And so when people are still pitching me, it, it does piss me off. It's on my website about it. Like in the podcast section. It says if you want to be a guest heads up, we're doing an invite only right now, so we're not accepting pitches. So when someone hasn't gone On for, you know, they haven't seen that detail. I'm like, how much research have you actually done? And it really always pulls into question. All right? Should I even open this pitch? Should I even read the rest of it? Because I'm receiving a pitch when it says explicitly on my website? I'm not taking it. So why would you write, but when I did have when, when I was in the season where I accepted pitches out, and when I did have my team member also comb through pictures for me, because she knew exactly what it was that I was looking for the kind of people that I love having conversations with, and anyone who gives us the air of arrogance, when they're very, very sumptuous, entitled, it's instant, no, no matter how valuable their topic could have been. If they tell me, when you're ready to book me on your podcast, here's my link. I'm like, No, bro, that I do not do that. I mean, like for some who really appreciate that kind of level of forgiveness, good for them, for them. But it's happened to me so many times. And there have been times when I do actually respond, you know, to ask like, oh, please take me off of your database list, because I've received multiple pitches from your company. And I really don't appreciate this presumptuous mine, where you give me the link without even me responding or saying, If it's okay, it doesn't fly with me at all. And I never get respond responses from them after that. So I'm like, Well, you ever put it in the trash? Or you took, they took it to heart and probably did take me off their database and just tried it again, anyway. Or maybe they did change up their strategies, even though it did not fly well with me. So my team member, she looked out for all of that kind of stuff. And I really appreciated it because she she also knew that I wanted these kinds of like incredible guests with the calibre of conversation that we could have. That's fun, enjoyable. And when you said the Starbucks test, I thought, I thought to myself, is it in a to go cup, or a nice big mug? That will indicate whether you want to stick around or like, well, because if someone's got to go cup, they can leave at any time, but they've got a bug. They kind of want to finish that? Yeah, so those are my thoughts on I like that
way of thinking about it.
Yes, exactly.
Yeah, we're sorry. Oh, that's fine. But are there any other questions? You want to pull back and make hay from? Yeah,
definitely. So one of them. You, you may have mentioned that you may have kind of answered these questions anyway. So just answer however you see fit. Okay. So thoughts on needing to be a listener versus listening to three recent or three relevant episodes? Do you think that's needed?
I think that yeah, like, if you, I would, if you do listen to three, and then finds like the one nugget or something that stood out to you, or something that you enjoy, like, I'll see where, and Trina will see to where it's like, they create like a little quote card or something out of something that I said, and then share that on their Instagram and will tag me in it. And so that would say more to me then. So you're saying like, I loved your last three episodes? Like, okay, cool. Yeah, the end, you know, sort of thing. And so, I would again, like be intentional about the episodes that you do want to listen to like half of the episodes that you would want to listen to anyway, and then find something that spoke to you or that you found really insightful, and then sharing that with your audience or whatever else and tagging me in it probably would say more. Or saying in the actual pitch, like, oh, like, I was talking to my business, see about over hiring, and I then listened to your podcast about the biggest mistake he made in 2022. And I forwarded it to her and we had a really great discussion about, you know, what the line is around team members for each of us, you know, it's like, oh, okay, like, that's interesting. I'm glad that provoked a conversation for you like, that is more enticing than just like I fives, like, love the episode, you know? So, again, it's, it's similar, but yet the tone and intention behind it feel very different on the receiving end. Definitely.
I wholeheartedly agree with that. And I do have like a side note as well, when it comes to listening to if you are a guest, or someone who wants to be a guest, and there's already been an episode covering your usual topic, by listening to that episode and providing how you can expand on that or provide a different perspective. That can really entice the host because instead of the hosting that, oh, we've already talked about podcasting. So here's what I did. There was a podcast I wanted to guest on and the calibre of housework, the calibre of gas was pretty high. And so I was like, Okay, I'm gonna be super intentional this they already had someone covering podcast guesting I listened. And they spoke only about pitching. I was like, oh, okay, here's a way that I can weave myself in. So I talked about my my three stage framework pitch with purpose. And then because pitching was already covered, talking about the before and after the pitch process to bring a well rounded topic idea that can really help the audience encourages episode linking, where you speak on the podcast, to a specific episode to encourage the listener to listen and Benji more is going to make the host feel good is going to make them look good. So that's just a little side note as well. So if you think oh, gosh, that has already been covered. Listen to it and see what you can add to it. Where can you expand? Where can you? I don't want to say compete. complement. The other topic? I can I think that's really important.
Yeah, I would agree. I like that. Um, yeah, taking something that you hear them, say and have a spin on it, or have a different take or a different perspective. Definitely kudos, like, good strategy.
Yeah. Awesome. All right. So what would what would signal to you that potential guests really gets your audience? What do you look for in that pitch? Other than your own vibe check? Oh, that's a good question.
That is a good question. I would say. Someone who really gets my audience would express things around. Like, again, I talked about my values, I talked about all those things a lot. And so if you are acutely aware of the fact that a lot of my people are very time constrained, whether that is because of their energy capacity, whether that's because they're caregivers, whether that's because they have a special needs child, whether it's a different diagnosis for themselves, and you take the time to really understand where they're at. Because again, there's people who come on the show, or want to come on the show winner, like have a million dollar business. That really isn't what most people care about, like, do they love money? Yes, absolutely. And they want to, you know, make money for themselves and their family. But they aren't the type of people who are trying to be I don't know examples. But just like Tony Robbins, like Oprah, like, they're not trying to be the biggest name in the industry, they have more of the goals and the desires that they have are more about, like, I want to like, be able to pick up my kid from school every day and go on like a dream Disney vacation every year, or I want to buy an RV and go cross country road tripping for six months, like, those are the types of things that people care about. And so if you come in really loud, about like, a social revenue amount, or something like that, again, that's not what my people care about. And so if you're noting on, oh, how to get 50% of your time back, or how to, you know, build your business during naptime, or how to, again, VIP days work one day a week with clients, and the rest of the time is, you know, in in between the cracks of caregiving, and homeschooling or whatever, like, those make sense for my people. So it's the it's the shout out and the call out around knowing what might people want. And you do that by either again, you can easily see that like browsing through my Instagram, or, again, listening to other episodes about the things I talked about, you will never see. Like anything. I've talked about how I've made seven figures, but I I'm not. And that's more or less than, like a contextual side of things than it is like something that I parade around, necessarily, you know, so because I want people to know, the level of business that I'm at, and the strategies I'm doing may not be what you should be doing. And not because you can't, but because we're at different levels of business. So I would say it's about understanding the desires and the goals of their audience in a way that like, again demonstrates that you have either listened to some episodes or followed somebody on social media or whatever the case is. So I would say that, and again, even with inclusivity stuff, we will notice if people use words like tone deaf or blind or slave or we will notice my edges and again, that will also turn us off because that means that you're not really thinking about inclusivity like we and again, I'm not saying that mistakes can be made, we're all learning, we're all growing, we learn new things every single day that we're like, okay, let's pull that, you know, kind of language from our stuff. And I, that's something that we look for again, like, Okay, if you're saying inclusive for saying diversity, but you're not thinking about these words that are very common, right? So I'm not knocking, if that's part of your vocabulary we've all got, that's how we've been brought up. And so I am very cognizant of saying those things. And I've had to slow down my thinking before speaking of saying, tone deaf blinds, like, it's usually in the disability space where I've had to do my work. And just noticing where I can do better, and how I speak and the words that I use. So those are some things that they're, I would say, again, let us know that, you know, our audience is by not using certain language. And by pointing out the goals and desires, that, you know, our audience has specifically.
I think that's really important. Just everything that you just said about how these values can, they can be shared, and everything, but they need to be illustrated through your actions. Right. And this is through the language, how you treat your people which like, it really depends on like, how far a team members gonna go, or the hosts themselves are gonna go to like, check you out and everything. But there are I call them safety signals, there are safety signals that people look for, that will determine whether or not they're safe and to be around you. So if someone for example, you know, us, okay, so there's some there's an example, there's blacklist versus blacklist, right, if someone specifically shifted that language, that tells me Oh, you're aware of the fact that blacklist has been a such a common word that has been used, when it comes to like people, like, Oh, they're no longer welcome in this email list, or whichever context you're gonna use it. And that to specifically change one letter in that word, tenant. blocklist shows me the level of awareness that this person is trying to convey, and the kind of care that they put in to the way that they show up. So yeah, there are safety signals everywhere, depending on which lens of inclusivity you're looking through, because there are so many, and I'm that's why Yeah, we were all learning. Like, I'm constantly learning more and more and more that I can do that. It's just like showing the assets and the and if possible, how someone is, I think the word is it reparation? Like, how do they like, instead of doing the dirty deletes, they like they own up to the fact that they screwed up. Right, and what they're going to do beyond that, I think that speaks volumes to someone's character.
Yeah. 100%. Yeah, that's again, we all, we all fall in different areas. And so it's, it's less about again, what's the perfection? Like? What's the list of unknown words? It's like, okay, like, you can try and compile that. But it's more or less, again, the intention, reading through it with an inclusive lens and being like, Oh, I said this, and this could be taken out of context, or whatever the case is, you know. So yeah, those are some things that again, can tell you if you know, the audience or not. Yes,
I agree. All right. So I think that's just one more question in the chat. And I have one question myself, as well. But let's get to the chat, one, because I'm also mindful of our time together. So we have do you include a link to other podcasts that you've been on so they can see what you're like in conversation?
It's very short answer. 100%? Yes. Now, don't put the long, the long link in the email, like, Please hyperlink it. So make it easy.
Alright, perfect. And I have a side tip for that. If you are going to link, I recommend going the extra mile and giving them a timestamp in relation to the topic that you've proposed in the pitch because like, Hey, you're gonna really love what I say about at 30 to 25. Because it was really illustrates the point that I mentioned about this topic of sustainable visibility, for example. Right. So I think, again, that degree of detail, it really shows a lot. So a little tip there. And I believe that's all of the questions we have in the chat. So thank you. So everybody who submitted your questions. So Jordan, may I ask you a question? Yes, please do. Okay, so let me see if I can phrase this correctly. It was actually quite early on. When you were taught, oh, gosh, I forgotten it. Like a moment here. Oh, crap. What was the question? Oh, okay. So it was about credibility markers. That's what it was. So Like, yes, the
the revenue numbers
can be impressive and all that stuff and all of the Forbes and Huffington Post and all of that, like they can help. I'm just curious that you've kind of answered this question already. But I'm just curious if there's another lens to it. Because you said that you don't necessarily look at how many followers someone has on social media, for example. I'm curious, like, if their pitch was so damn good. What else do you look for to ensure that what they the topic is actually legitimate for them to speak about outside of podcasts that they've already been on? I'm curious, what other credibility markers do you look for? What's going to help this person is the gym if they don't have the
numbers? Yes, yeah. So I would say, something that we look for is, look at your testimonials that you have on your site is like one area that we definitely look at. Because again, you can buy followers, you can technically I guess, lie and not really worked with this person. But again, if we would say testimony a big one for us. Because again, that means that you've worked with people and that you've gotten people results or value in some sort of way. So that's definitely one. Also training will sometimes look and see if we have mutual friends, like if, like, if on Facebook, or whatever the case is, or LinkedIn, and we're, like, connected by mutual people, then that also does help. So for example, I think, I think, you know, severe, yeah, when the bureau was pitching to be a speaker, and then we chose her. One of the things was, she put her application and but then my team was like, we've got like, six emails from people that are like, because if you're, it would be like, an epic speaker for you to have. And so my team took note in that, and it was people who I knew people who my team knew. And so that is trust that we're able to see is like, Okay, if so, and so and so and so and so and so and so and so and so and so, are all saying that you would be a really great person to have on our stage, we're going to take extra sexual look, see at your application or your pitch, because we trust them. And if they trust you, then therefore maybe we should trust you. Right. So I think that that was smart, as a fierce part. And I would maybe say that's more for speaking and podcast pitching. But yet, and still, even if there was like, I mean, she had like five people, and I don't think that she, like told them to email, I think, No, she wouldn't,
she wouldn't have done that. I know. Like, I
don't get that vibe from her. And so it was just people on their own. We'll just be like, hey, it's the fear was talking about how she pitched you and like, I want you to, like, check it out. So I think, even with podcasts, even if there's like one person that you guys didn't mutually know. And I did that on behalf of people to like, if, you know if someone's like, oh, yeah, like, you know, I pitch this podcast, wherever I'm like, oh, like, I know, the host of that, like, I'll go and like DM them on Instagram and let them know that like you'd be a really great guest for them. I actually get asked for guest recommendations all the time. And I love giving them and so that's that's something to wear. Who is it? Who's really great. That's Ashley Gartland. I don't know if you know her name rings,
a bell name rings a bell. I know.
I feel like if not like, I feel like you guys are in the same vein. She doesn't do what you do, but like values wise. So she was how I got on to Tara McMillan's podcast, what works recommend 2018 a podcast that I really wanted to be on and just did not want to go the traditional route. And so she was like, Well, what, you know what? podcast you want to be on? I'm like, Oh, these like, sort of ones. And like, ideally, I'd really want to be on like, what works? Ella, like, vibe wise. And so she was like, oh, like, I was just on Tara's podcast, like, I'll totally just like, send an email. And so she sent an email, and then we got connected, and then we moved forward. And that podcast, got me a tonne of VIP clients. So it's like, if you have, and that's where just like connections in general are so helpful. And why I preach about them all the time is because it can change the game. It can really put you in such strategic aligned opportunities because somebody is willing to like, raise their hand and say I vouch for this person, right? It's, it's crucial. So I would say, testimonials and then if you can have somebody that we move both mutually No. And I wouldn't just base it off of like, whose Facebook friends because there are people that I'm Facebook friends with that I wouldn't, like, take the recommendation for one way or another, right? Like, I still enjoy them as a human. But like, I just wouldn't take the recommendation for one reason or another. So make sure that it's, and I don't know how you do this. But again, make sure that it's somebody that, you know, I have either mentioned before, or I've already had on my podcast, or I've had on my stage, or there's some way that you've seen me and this person united in some front. And don't just trust the mutual friend stuff on like Facebook and whatever. So also an FYI, on that.
Yeah, I laughed, by the way, because I literally just deleted 2200, nearly 3300 friends on Facebook, who I I know, like, I'd say about 80% of them. I know I never would have accepted their friend request. So it's, I think the other thing where you can bypass the Facebook system, and just like how you can buy Instagram followers and actually change the number even though it's actually not legit. Anyhow, that's what happens on that, yes, the mutual friend and the connection. So something that someone did before was when they were pitching to me, they took note of which podcast I was on. And they were also on I was like, Oh, that's good. Like I didn't wind up saying yes, because of the lack of specificity in areas. But I appreciate it. Again, that detail as well about the details, and the intentionality. But I love that you use testimonials as a qualitative way to illustrate the someone's ability to kind of basically says what it does. And I can do like to say, right, that their work is legit, because of what these people are saying. So I love that you have that way of qualifying your people and that it doesn't stop at vanity metrics. So that's super, super appreciated. Okay, Jordan, I think we're actually at time now. There are no more questions in the chat. So I'm just curious, do you have any final words of wisdom, like gems that we can take away? And just like before I go into all of the thank yous, I would just love to know, would there be an overarching gem that you would love to leave our listeners today? For those who date will the entire thing? Thank you so much. I see. Well, thank you so much. And for those who are going to be watching this or listening to this, as you're coding any gems for us?
Yeah, I would say yeah, the gem is, again, recognise that you probably are one connection away, if not, maybe two, but really a lot of us one away from being on the podcasts that you want to be on or like having opportunities that you want to have. And not overthinking that you have to, again, boost your Instagram followers or boost these other things or try and get on Forbes. It's a lot simpler than that. I don't say easy, but it can be a lot simpler than that. And that's through people that's through connections. And so yeah, that would be my one jam. It's just like not overthinking it, not overthinking it, and whatnot. Speaking of connections, I'm like seeing all these people I know. But you know, that that's what I want to like, preach, and everything that I talk about, it's just like, like, you're one person away, like, there's so many, I could go through so many opportunities that I've had that had I not known this person, like people who were going to be keynoting for something that then they couldn't make it and I was the filler like, I wouldn't have gotten that opportunity had I not known this person, and they thought that I would be a really great feel for them. You know, it's like those simple things that again, it's it can seem overwhelming, but at the same time, it really is just like one person, it's one person at a time and you build that over time. So that would be my one jam is like people are everything in business. That's how I built my business. That's how I will continue to build my business. And that's how you can a lot of times kind of jump over the the hurdles of pitching of applications of things like that is when you either know the person or know someone who knows that person. That really is is how business can be done.
Love that jam. And I think that's a perfect way to round off. The whole point of podcast pitching is not just for the interview, like how most people think it is because they want to be on 100 podcasts and all of that. But it's about the connections you create with the host Yes, it's reaching a grand audience, you know, however big or small, how deep or how wide the audience is actually all about the relationship you develop. So I think your gem of wisdom there just beautifully integrates with the whole reason why I teach podcast gifting in a way that's all about the relationships not just let's hope The pitch works. It's like no, let's see is this this invite, like the opening for a connection here. So I think that's amazing. So, Shawn, and I just want to say thank you so much for your, for your time, of course, which we know is precious. And just like how open you were with sharing the pitches and rewriting a couple of other topics, just so that we can see your brain work in real time. That was super cool. But I just really appreciate your wisdom and your willingness to share. So thank you so so so much for being here. And I feel a couple folks in the comments saying like super encouraging, thank you so much, really appreciate this. Convo, learned so much about how to how to pitch mindfully thank you both so much. So Jordan, I appreciate you. Thank you so much for all you do everybody who's listening or watching this, whether it's replay or you're here, live with us, I'll pop all of Jordans links below this recording, so that you can stay connected with Jordan, check out her later than maybe we'll make your mark in Dallas, Texas. And yeah, just like stay in her world of influence, because I really have been Jordan's world for quite a few years. And I don't plan on stopping and being in North being in this part of the Olympics as well. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Jordan, and thank you everybody who's joined today.