Ep. 8 - Constitution DAO, An Inside Look - Julian Weisser, Will Papper, Sirsu

5:39AM Nov 29, 2021

Speakers:

Keywords:

people

constitution

crypto

web

trust

buying

document

folks

space

talking

project

challenges

julian

thinking

building

conversation

world

community

participate

incredible

Hello friends, and welcome back to club c plus podcasts. My name is Jess, we have the privilege here of speaking with the folks building at the edges of the social crypto space and today have about a two part conversation, we have the privilege of speaking with Julian Weiser and will PAPR, who are two contributors to a project that's taking crypto Twitter and even some of the mainstream media by storm, a group that are trying to buy the US Constitution, or at least the one privately held copy of it. As we speak. I'm sitting here Monday evening, November 15, nearly 1000 eath has been raised in the crowd fund, countless hours of work has been put into the formation and launch of constitution doubt. And last night, I had the opportunity to sit down with the two gentlemen to get a firsthand take in the middle of the Creation like they are right dead smack in the middle of a seven day process of going from formation to hopefully a winning bid on this auction in southern US, which takes place on Thursday, which I guess is this afternoon given ton of publishing. My hope here is that we have a look into the middle of process of setting an organization like this up. And I found the conversation fascinating. After finishing the recording and posting about it on Twitter, there was some comments actually, that led me to think that we probably needed to have while our second guest on board, the act of attempting to by the Constitution has led to some well warranted criticism around the political nature of the document, the potential racist nature of the document, and some other interesting critiques. And so we are joined by Cyr Su, who's a sci Club member, and also founder of a number of interesting projects, including the crypto cookout, and Blackhand. And he and I had a bond educational conversation for myself around what I think is a very fair critique of the Constitution, but also a very optimistic take on sort of the the importance of responsibility and through his lens believes the opportunity that folks coming together to buy the Constitution might provide. So two part series, the first part diving into the craziness of trying to launch the Constitution now, and hopefully there's some lessons in there that we can take for other such initiatives. And then a really educational conversation with CRC around some of the critiques conversations that are emerging around it. Hope that I did both Justice. I'm just so generally passionate and interested in this topic of building things together on the internet and having them community owned. But also very thankful for just the thoughtful, passionate takes that all of our guests here have on this topic, and just generally in the importance of web three. So leave it at that jump into our first part of a conversation with Julianne and we'll, we'll talk to CRC. Let's get into it. Gentlemen, so excited to have you join us here today. Hello, Julian. Hello, Will. Julian you want to just give yourself a brief introduction?

Hey, I'm Julian, one of the contributors to constitution Dow. And during the day, I'm a co founder of a company called on deck that helps people start companies and grow their careers.

And of course, we do we need to introduce well here who just seems to be the most repeat guests we've ever had here on the C club podcast, but ended up in interesting situations. Well, if you want to give yourself a brief introduction,

yep, I'm Will co founder of syndicate where we set up Dallas and down communities and help a lot with investing in legal and compliance. And that is why we're so excited about 10 station down. And then also was previously on the podcast for the ventricle on where my only life goal is to be on the C club podcast as many times as possible for completely unrelated projects,

almost start getting the NFT. So you can represent that in your in your wallet and build that reputation. Okay, gentlemen, this is I mean, this is come together very last minute, you're in the middle of this crazy thing that I think I first heard about a couple days ago, there's a couple 100 people following. There's now 1000s of people in the discord and Twitter. I think it used to be called Nick Cage down when I first saw it now I think it's called constitution down. Can you guys just give us a brief introduction of what the heck is this thing? They let you're dedicating a lot of your heartbeats to these last few days?

Yeah, maybe I'll go first. And we'll you can jump in and add some more. What we're doing here is pretty straightforward. But it's daunting. We're going out and we're collaboratively and collectively buying the us a copy of the US Constitution. And we're going to have it be owned by the Internet. Anybody who wants to own a piece of it can own a piece of it. And it's going to be available for people to interact with in person and experience in person and learn about both the US Constitution and about web three. Learn about how they can also be an owner of it. Don't be able to just look at the placard right next to it and say, Oh wow, this is something that I can be a part of right now and they could join the community right then and Wow, looking at this constitution, and really our goal is to spread sort of a word of what web three is what's possible with web three, and what better way to do it than to raise, you know, 10s of millions of dollars to collaboratively buy one of the most important historic artifacts of, you know, at least of American history.

Yeah, one thing that I love about it, is that downs are so participatory, and governments as well, and the Constitution also represents this idea of a participatory Republic. And what combining this gets us is public stewardship of this historic artifact where anyone can govern the Constitution and choose, for example, where it's displayed, where it goes next. Maybe it's a rotating exhibit among multiple cities. And this is a way to help show that crypto is really about participating. That's I think, the biggest gap between the crypto space and outside of the crypto space that outside the crypto space cryptos weed is exclusive inside the crypto space, it's viewed as inclusive. And to spread that message of inclusivity. To spread that to spread that message of participation is something that's really, really important for the whole crypto community.

I love that. So you know, what interested me about both of you guys on here today was both, you know, I think we just touched on here, like, how interesting this project is the implications of the size, the scale, that sort of broad appeal. And you know, what I often refer to as like the adventure, it was the adventure that we're going, that's quite the adventure, truly later, you're charting here. But I'm also like, fascinated with sort of, you know, I love this idea of sort of, you know, there's this lake, and then we get to put our head under the lake, and there's just, it's teeming with life, like what is going on. And I think that's like Dows, generally, and you're in the midst of this sort of, you know, building this project that is just gaining so much momentum and energy and attention that I think we put our heads under the water, there's a lot of really interesting insights that we can pull specifically at this moment, as you're still sitting in this. It's a world of potentiality. It's a world of, you know, risk of failure, like it's all on the on the line here. And so I want to both get into the the context and interestingness of the project itself, and hopefully dive into some of like the the opportunities challenges, the operational side of things. So maybe let's start off with like the, you know, this broad narrative, like, why, why the Constitution, why this copy of the Constitution. And why now,

I think we'll brought up a really great point about participation, and how important that is, to the American experiment, and also to web three. And I think that there when we consider what can be done with this project, it's really an example of showing the capabilities of the new forms of collaboration and participation with web three. And what better way to do that than to connect it to a document that is so representative of what the or what has come before, and creating that actual link, I think is really something that people get excited about. I think that one thing that I've been just really blown away by is seeing how every sort of political ideology, every side, both sides of the aisle, every every place of the spectrum seems to really be coming together over this. And I think that's because everybody has this shared sort of relationship, or it has their own unique relationship, I should say, with America, with what America means to them with what it means to their family. You know, the the challenges that they faced here are the the amazing opportunities that they found. And when you when you consider that, I think that that really elevates this to something much more than a crowd fund, much more than, you know, your standard, sort of like an F T or something like that. And there's all sorts of amazing projects. I'm not trying to denigrate. But there's something really emotionally powerful about this. And we're not even talking about the meme layer, which I think is another another part of this, that that is really important. We can talk about that later. But I'll pause there and see if I, you know, well, if you if you want to add something, the thing

that caught my attention. The reason why I wanted don't constitute a doubt was because it struck me as one of those things that seemed unachievable, and crypto is just incredible at achieving the unachievable like we already have in I mean, just a few days. Like we are already talking with, like museums who would want to display this and who'd want to partner with us on it. We're talking directly with Sotheby's and also confirming that we have everything in place we need for the bid. We're setting up a fundraise. For the crowd fund, we're setting up a legal entity. We're setting up all of these different pieces that are just coming together incredibly quickly. And it's like I believe we'll succeed, I certainly hope will succeed. The fact that we even have the infrastructure in place to make this happen from between like doubt collaboration between syndicate and juicebox, between all these individual people jumping in between the memes that people have created, it's just like, well, we have a group springing up out of nothing in a few days, that now already has the capabilities to potentially buy the Constitution. All we need is the money at this point. Everything else is basically in place, which is just absolutely incredible.

Okay, that is actually incredible, because I think, before we start recording here is talking about Julian and about just the end. And I think we've talked about this on the show quite a bit. It's just like the challenges of actually having downs interact with the real world. And I think that's the thing I really want to dive into. But like, June was talking to you yesterday, you sort of updated your percentage chance of this actually working out, like real time in the call. Can you? Were we sitting today? Cuz I think previously, you're saying like maybe 20%? And you're like, 50%? Are we north of 50%? We look like we're gonna get

Yeah, so I'll walk you through sort of the iterations there. I think at the beginning, you know, a few people reached out to me, Austin, and Graham reached out to me on Twitter, it sounds like a few other folks. Were also looking at sort of this idea of, hey, wouldn't it be cool to try and by the Constitution, but they were the ones who reached out to me. You know, it was it was such a wacky idea. I never met these these gentlemen before. I didn't really know anything about them. But you know, it started to get a little bit of traction on web three, Twitter, and I said, Hmm, this is really intriguing. I think the biggest challenge here is actually going to be the turnaround time, to get the legal entity in place to get the structure in place, the money seems like it could sort of take care of itself if everything else was in place. And I was just pretty hesitant that we'd be able to dot all of the I's and cross all the t's in time to make this happen. That was my biggest hesitation. And, you know, I think that the power of the medium is really what is propelled this forward so much. And then of course, all of the infrastructure that's being built by folks like syndicate by folks like juicebox. But this this power of the meme to sort of create the belief that this is possible, or even the idea that it might be possible, is something that probably was the the main thing for me that that got me thinking that this was this thing had legs. And then my sort of every little sort of milestone that we made along the way has gotten my percentage chance up. That was about 20%. You know, when we did that Zoom call with maybe 14 People at the very beginning. And then you know, it's crawled up yesterday, it was probably at about 50%, before a few milestone unlocks. And then today, we had this amazing call with Sotheby's this morning. I mean, the fact that so many of these folks from Sotheby's showed up, you know, in the morning, Sunday morning to chat with us, really, really goes to show the excitement around the potential of this story that Sotheby's can be a part of with us that we can co create together. It really goes to show there's something special here. I really

like that, that idea of being able to put like, you know, the idea of collaboration and pulling people into a story. In many ways. I went through a crypto sort of like us versus them, like the establishment versus that sort of upstart. And I think in your story there the idea of people coming in Sunday morning to hang out to be a part of the story that the that the size and scale of this, I think is what is fairly notable here. There's a tweet from slums, everybody's favorite Twitter performance artist, they formed a doubt a purchase the constitution will be the next they did surgery on a grape. I thought. I mean, I think it's there is this sort of sense of gravity to this thing like to it being pulled off? I'm sure it's like, what would have been like the big sort of milestones that you've seen? You talked a little bit about legal entities, but how about an early days going from from 20 people on a zoom call to to that, Oh, my God, this might actually happen?

One by answer, but Well, I'm curious yours, because I don't think I've heard it, or what's your what's your take on sort of how you've experienced this so far?

So there's an interesting piece of the discussion that I think is under the surface and why this has gotten so popular. But a key milestone is the fact that it's starting to enter the consciousness. So I think that at the beginning, there is this idea of, oh, it's so wacky, we can buy the Constitution. Isn't that kind of crazy? Like we can do this and there was this kind of this like, aspect of absurdity to it of Wait, crypto can buy a constitution, but underneath that was the message of all of us together can buy a constitution. And all of us participating in this like radical experiment of collaboration can make some incredible milestone happen. And in my mind, that's been the key shift is that in the first Few days, everyone was just like, this is a wacky idea. And now people are starting to see the power of what this idea of participatory governance. Of course, one of the foundational documents in participatory governance really means. And that's where I think that we're starting to, I guess, like, crossed the Rubicon, where like this is now starting to be seen as something that anyone can join. How many new discord members that the first milestone in my mind was when we started gaining? What was it 200 New discord members an hour? Yeah, yeah. And that was like that was that was as of yesterday. So like, it's it's picked up even more since then were like, at the beginning, it was, Oh, ha, these people have this wacky idea. Now it's like, well, I can participate. Anyone can participate in making this happen. And I think that when when the fundraise is set up, which is going to happen very, very soon, we'll be one step further. Now. It's not just, oh, I can like, also participate and share my thoughts now. So now also, like, I can help bring this to life directly. And it's not even about how much money you have to contribute. It's about you can send that link to friends, you can start to share it out, you can start to onboard people onto crypto showing them Hey, like, what if your first crypto transaction is helping play a role in buying the Constitution? It is, I think this just like radical participatory experiment that started from a wacky idea, and now is this pretty incredible, collaborative movement.

And I'll just add really quickly, that I'm really surprised and heartened and inspired by seeing how many people I know who've never participated in crypto, or maybe they had a Coinbase account, but they never participated, to the extent that they had a rainbow wallet or a meta mask, seeing them, join and join the discord, learn how to get meta mask or rainbow or something else, and then actually get ready in anticipation of participating in this. And the excitement around that, that they have. These are really talented people and technology, but not web three people. I think this is the onboarding experience for potentially 10s of 1000s, or hundreds of 1000s of people in the future, into web three, through something that is tangible, through something that is emotional, and through something that is participatory, in a way that I think people can actually really wrap their hands around or they're really understand. That's different than you know, I think that there is this psychological challenge for people when it comes to NF Ts and things like that. That's not to say that there isn't a lot of value in NF T's and digital art. But it's certainly something that, you know, there's a hurdle there, I think there's actually less of a hurdle to the idea of CO ownership of something that's a physical asset.

And interesting thing. So looking at how many different NF T platforms today started off with the crossover of NFT and physical goods. I think there's there's definitely something there. You know, you touched on two themes that we see coming up so often in the work we do at Sea Club, and on this podcast, one is this the power of momentum, and the idea of just incremental, and then all of a sudden exponential sort of attention and growth and participation. And it was just like, Yeah, I mean, 100% agree that the way that we onboard, the next 100 million people into web three is through community experiences like this, ones where there's high trust being built, or there's some really crazy adventure that gives a much more that you're joining for to be a part of this movement, rather than joining to speculate or to. Yeah, to invest. I think there's like a very noticeable difference there. And I mean, it's why I just in the most optimistic ever, that I've ever been about the space like it's, you know, and, you know, the, every one of these adventures that we go on creates the possibility for many, many more, right? Like the it's the spread of the number of people who are thinking about doing crazy shit, like, this is stupid and wild. And I mean, maybe we can just frame that quickly, how much do you need to raise to even have a chance at winning this?

It's a good question. It's anybody's guess, really, quite frankly, the the range on Sotheby's, and in terms of their estimate is 15 to 20 million. And the reality is, we just don't know, I would, I would guess that it's going to be much higher than that. The The thing is, the last copy of the Constitution that sold publicly at a public sale was outside of Bs, and it was this copy. It was 33 years ago. And I believe it sold for about $180,000 At that time, so their inflation is crazy, but it's not that crazy, and the value has gone up considerably. And we anticipate that the estimated value is going to be a lot lower than what the actual final bid is. So we're prepared to raise quite a lot and we're excited to really make a go This.

And one thing that I think is really radical about this whole experiment is this is not a profit seeking enterprise. There is no expectation of profit for anyone involved any contributors, anyone who puts money into crowdfund This is a non profit, working on it. Nonprofit, nonprofit, and spirit, hopefully nonprofit. And that's what we're that's what we're tracking down this week. But yes, there, this is a this is a like collaborative, like nonprofit oriented enterprise. And what this leads to is just this really incredible idea of governance, where like, we're going to raise 15 to $20 million, not because people think the constitution will be more valuable later on, they're donating it, we're gonna raise 15 to $20 million. Because people want to be part of this experiment and governance, and how we can collectively steward this very important piece of history. So it's not even like, oh, look, crypto has so much money. Like, they like put together $20 million. It's like, because there's not a profit, again, enterprise, crypto is donating $20 million dollars to to acquire this historical document. It's also the money is going to a foundation. And that foundation has done previous work in Constitutional Studies. It's a very cohesive ecosystem. And it's not some experiment. It's speculation. It's an experiment in governments. And it's an experiment in participation. And that is unique. And that's something that I think is different from NF T's and other aspects where there is an explicit profit motive to it.

I think it's so important that those are the stories that that start to bubble up in crypto rather than than the speculative ones. And it's very, can be challenging, just given the sort of velocity and excitement it can be a rat comes around, you know, PFP is going up or Shiva going up or whatever. But I think this has a great chance of doing that. So okay, let's, let's really dive into some of the practicalities of this. And we're just talking about the the crowdfund being one of them. Well, actually, let's, let's go here. So there's crowdfund there's legal there's how do you actually get people aligned around sort of a common mission? Julian, you were sort of alluding to this, this ability to, or being surprised by the number of people who've come in, but my guess is that there was a lot of work behind the scenes to sort of get people interested in it. He tell me a little bit about how you guys were thinking as a collective, about growing your ranks, making sure you had the talent and the practical human resources required to go pull something like this off?

Yeah. So I think the first thing that's worth noting here, and you know, we said it at the beginning, we're contributors, you know, we're not leaders of anything, this is, this is an organization where there are lots of people doing all sorts of amazing initiatives, we're here to tell a story about that organization. And we're really, really honored to have that opportunity in terms of the organization scaling up and people getting involved. I think that we never suffered for want of people, you know, have talent. The great thing about web three, and the great thing about a mission like this, as well articulated so eloquently, there's no shortage of people who want to be involved with an amazing, amazing mission like this, if anything, I think that due to the time constraints, I think that one of our biggest challenges is around not being able to enlist every single talented, amazing person who wants to help out on a very, like hands on way into the initiative. You know, this is one of those situations where I think that the, the amount of time that we have is actually very beneficial. The time constraint is sort of a great forcing function. You know, there was the it had to be heard about this a month ago, or 90 days ago, I don't think we would actually have the momentum that we do right now. I think that's because when you have seven days, it just makes it sound even more ridiculous, even less likely to be possible, and even more audacious. And I think that at least right now, the web three community really leans into that sort of thing. And people just really are inspired by ambitious goals, things that seem almost impossible, but might be might be possible. And I think that we just we just from the very beginning, people were excited to, to at least join in and play along. And then I think that maybe people didn't necessarily believe this was quite possible, but they wanted to see what might happen. And you know, there were some great memes, and then it started to really solidify that, oh, wow, we might actually be able to make this happen. So the team has scaled, you know, as scaled a little bit. But you know, it's really, it's really a thing where it's still staying relatively small in the regard that we just have to be super focused and heads down on getting things to goal in such a short span of time. I'll let we'll jump in there. fill in some additional details. But one additional thing that I would add is really related to the fact that you're there's so many different ways to contribute to a dour to an admission mission like this. And people who've, you know, helped other people set up wallets, people who've created really great art or tweets, these people honestly have done, you know, so much to actually further the spread of constitution now, and further the spread of the imagination. I think it's like a collective imagination thing. And here, we've had probably well over 100 people who have now filled out the volunteer forum, since we posted it less than less than, well, less than 24 hours ago. So you know, there's there's no shortage of people. And it's really exciting, because that means that if you have an ambitious goal and web three, you really don't have to worry about not having great people who want to build it with you.

Yeah, I think it's almost like there's almost an opposite problem. In some cases, which I think you're almost touching on here, where sometimes the the amount of people who want to lean in can actually be overwhelming for a project, especially early on, and that there's like a lot of a lot of these challenges that might not be best solved by throwing a whole lot of human beings at it. But I do think it's like, and it's attention, I see it coming up with a lot of hoops or put a lens on like what can we learn from from building building a house or building a process like this where there is this one camp abroad belief of like, you know, flat hierarchy and or no hierarchy, flat organization, everybody can lean in, everything's done on a consensus basis, we come up against some real challenges in that, right, which is that making decisions gets significantly more complicated. And instead, what we're really seeing and most successful 1000s of smaller groups of people coming in, to lean in more, I guess, help make those fast decisions early on, that almost sort of builds the legitimacy or authority there that then sort of leads into not not this like hierarchical top down, you are the boss type thing, but rather, because of access to information, or because of relationships that are built or sort of like just the natural progression of the work that gets done, you kind of end up with these multiple leaders. And so like, when I have like a window into your organization's I see these multiple leaders who've done an exceptional job at moving core areas of this project forward. But truly this the accessibility of that, that next layer out I think, which is a love described as imagination, I think that's like, just absolutely great word to describe the the importance of you know, folks engaging in everything, from chats to Twitter, to introductions to the customer need customer support is what you're talking about here when we're trying to get people on board with new wallets, which again, to back to our point of onboarding new people into crypto very, very important thing to be able to get people to hold their own keys. huge barrier still that exists. And I think these sort of projects can can overcome them. Well, I'm curious from your perspective, like what what does the HR component of this data look like? And because I know you're sort of looking at a different part of this organization? Yeah.

I mean, one thing we tell all the bows that are put that Syndicate is, make sure you have a really clear way for your community to contribute. Because the clearer the contribution method, the more easily adapt and scale. And that's kind of how we've split up the responsibilities. There are some areas where there's not much clarity of how most people can contribute. So for example, Syndicate is helping with legal formation and getting through KYC and AML processes, know your customer and anti money laundering proceeds with Sotheby's that's necessary to buy real world asset. That's not something where there's an obvious way for people to contribute. So that makes sense to keep it small and work with a really close group of people. But then there's other areas where there is a really clear way to contribute. And that's, for example, the fundraising process, where as soon as the fundraise is live, which I mean, we're speaking on Sunday, right now, fundraise, we'll have, we'll be live by our data be amazed by how much is raised, we'll see. But yeah, once the fundraising process live, the way to contribute is really, really clear. You can contribute each himself if you want to, or you can also share that link with people and spread it and help other people understand the mission and values of constitution down. And then that's where the contribution methods start to get really clear and start to work really well. So that's, I think, the general way that most owls tend to form. And I think the best method and what what we advise them on and syndicate is, is essentially, like, there's this early stage, where like, things are very unclear. And then you just do need a few people to say, okay, here is how we're going to handle it. And there are also some cases where it's not easy for everyone to participate. Like in legal entity formation. There's a lot of nuances to the structure that Susan like, for example, like, like una is unincorporated nonprofit associations are commonly suggested for Dows. And something that we we suggest ourselves, but it can't go through the KYC and AML process at Sotheby's, for example. So there are cases where it's not obvious for how people can contribute. And this is I think, what gets back to the radical participation. It's like Dows are fragile in their early stages and They're really hard to get set up. And they're really hard to structure. But then there's a point where they scale. And that scaling can be far far beyond what anyone thinks is possible. And as we're talking right now, another milestone is we are at this inflection point where as soon as the juicebox founders is live, which it's Sunday evening now, and that should be live very soon, we will be at this new milestone, where the inflection point is now, what does our best at where guys can scale really, really rapidly where everyone can go out and share the mission and values and goals of this participatory experiment? So yeah, when people want to know that, like, we are really at the cusp of something incredible. And it's very exciting to see what will happen with it. Well, I'm

already picturing you on CNN with it with talks like that, and just being such a great voice for this movement? Well, let's dive into some of the practicalities here, because I know a lot of the work has gone into making some early decisions around some very practical aspects of it. And you're talking about the fundraise itself. You know, there's a number of tools that I think one of the big exciting unlocks of the last six, eight months has been just the accessibility of tools for folks to be able to use to try to go and achieve these crazy things. You know, we talked about a lot about Mir, in the past, we've seen, you know, a bunch of other different fundraising mechanisms, you guys have have landed on using juicebox. As a platform for fundraising. I'm really curious about the thought process behind that and what juicebox does, specifically that's useful to to this project.

So we'll maybe I'll start, and you can get into a little bit more of the technicalities behind it. But when you're, when you're considering sort of the different constraints, the different needs different features, that would be required in order to be successful here, we had a few that were really high priorities for us. The first is, you know, we think we're gonna win this, we want to win this, we're going out there, we're going to work really hard to make beds. And when having said that we might not win, right. And we really want people who are participating in this, to have an easy way to actually get their funds back. If we don't win, I think that that's that's only the right thing to do. And that's the thing that gives people the confidence to participate in the first place. So one thing we wanted was a really solid refund mechanism. So that's one thing that we were looking for. Another thing we were looking for, is we've kind of got a unique situation, in that we're not actually working towards a set goal in terms of dollar amount. We aren't saying okay, that we're 90% of the way towards the goal, we have a bunch of goals, and then we're going to talk about sort of the reasons you want to hit certain tiers. But at the same time, there isn't this one sort of number where it's like, Okay, we got it we're in, I mean, you know, if we if we raised 150 million, maybe that's enough, you know, but you never, you never know, with betting. So we wanted to make sure that there was a way to essentially raise more than we needed, and then be able to refund partial contributions. So you'll be able to essentially, chop down each person's contribution proportionally, and be able to refund the remainder that wasn't used towards the dead. This is a this is a pretty important thing for this. This is a very specific type of campaign that we're running. And, you know, we also have this very unique aspect of the bidding is not happening on chain. The bidding is actually happening in Fiat. And we need to think about that. Because, you know, some platforms that we're huge fans of your party bed by party Tao is, you know, it's an on chain bidding mechanism. So it just doesn't really work for what we're trying to do. And that was another that was another consideration. I don't know. Well, you probably have some other great re thoughts about this.

Yeah, I think that there was a another thing that also played a role, but just that essentially, like we were talking about fundraising mechanisms, and juicebox is like in the Dow. And they're like, they say to us, like, Hey, we've already passed governance proposals preemptively, to support constitution doubt, like we've already passed proposals to waive the fees, which would have been like 500k or more. We've like we have people in your discord, doing walkthroughs that we can get you set up on Rinkeby right now, so you can play with this. And I think that there's this interesting, like, web three native future, where data collaboration like with syndicate and juicebox, both like we're not selling a product here, we are participating in the Dow, just like every other contributor. And I think that that's really like people talk about the future of data collaboration. And I think data Dow kind of misleads people into it because it sounds like b2b, you know, it sounds like a sales process. It sounds like a customer relationship, but it's like, no, like, we just think this is cool. So like three like team members syndicator Just spending like their whole weekend working on constitution doubt. Because we think it's cool. Like a bunch of people do Xbox are spending their whole weekend like working on constitution out because they think it's cool. And it's like, I feel lucky that like we can we can work on such fun things. And that's really I think what the best part of crypto is just like this joy you get from the things you do, and the people you work with. That's just an absolutely wonderful thing.

And what folks can see here on the audio is just the smile that comes across his face when he shares about that, which I love. And, you know, I think that the juicebox team has been, they're just wonderful builders, you know, Perry, and Django and Nicolas, just huge shout out to those guys. And for all the work they've been doing in the space, big fans of them. So I was very as like, Heck yes, I love that. That's a team that you guys are working with. But I think there's just so many amazing builders in the space, called an often over optimist too much, but I just like, I can't help it. Because I know all these people, and they're just amazing human beings. Okay, so I think those are all really, really interesting aspects that I don't think I'd actually considered the the challenge, just trying to raise more money than you actually need. Not even having that clear goal and the ability to split it back up. You know, the fundraising in my mind when I when I think about it, like, we've talked a lot in the past about the challenges of operating Dows and interact with the IRL, right? Like, how do you actually engage with buying something physical, you know, Dows themselves are these wonderful Digitally Native organizations that can govern, you know, digital goods and assets and make decisions in a digital way. And it's very easy for them to do but as soon as you try to step off from from the Aetherium, smart, contract governed world, you're going to end up in a whole lot of big questions and challenges. Most of us are still like, really not well defined, or very awkward. So to me like fundraising. While yes, it's probably the most important thing now and and like, definitely shouldn't underestimate the challenge of raising four or 5000 eath. Like that's, that's definitely a significant sum. Like the red flags that are the warning signs that came up or challenges that came up for me, as I sort of was thinking about this really fell down into two main areas, and they're both URL one was the legal structure. And then two is like, how the hell do you actually custody? Something that's worth $20 million? And what does that even even look like? So I'd love to dive into that to the stage that we can. And I'm curious about how you approached thinking about setting up a legal entity for this Dao? What were the considerations there? And to the sort of amount that is actually clear right now, where did you guys land up?

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, luckily, syndicate we've done this before, like, we help set you down, get set up with their legal entity as well help them figure out like, possible pads of donation structures. And and I'd say the playbook is very similar for constitution depth. So it's not our first time covering this, which helps a lot. The thing that I think is the biggest difference between the crypto world and the web two world is the difference in ownership. So the unfortunate thing is that a lot of the web two, World of restricts ownership, like we are not able to give people ownership in the Constitution, in exchange for the crowd fund at the point of sale, that's not something we're able to do, we can only take donations, I have had this really absurd phrase that I that I that I've said a few times this week, which is that the Constitution itself is not a security, but fractional ownership of a constitution is and we're not selling fractional ownership, we are taking donations. And those donations allow people to govern how that constitution is displayed, and where it's displayed. And I joke that the LLC is like a legal multi SIG, I keep using that phrase. It's like a legal multi SIG, where essentially, just like a multi SIG, like you're executing snapshot votes, and you're trusting the people you're advising to operate in the interests of the Dow. And that's why it matters that we have test community members on the MultiState that's why it matters. We have tested community members on the LLC, like as much as we would love to give everyone a share of the Constitution itself. We cannot do so yet. And I'm hopeful that the crypto world can prove out in the digital sphere, like these ideas of like radical ownership that will hopefully make their way into the web to world. Right now. It's not feasible, like we can't, we cannot like as a unincorporated nonprofit association, which is the closest legal analogy fails, we cannot bid at Sotheby's, we need an LLC. And we need to have specific honors. I think that those change, those things will change in the future as the crypto world starts to show what's possible. In the traditional world, you can only have 2000, shareholder, every corporation in the US before you're regulated as a public company in the crypto world. The Dow with 3000 members is pretty small. So yeah, I think that that is the biggest difference in interacting with the Constitution and these real world assets is what we can and can't do around ownership and We're optimistic that it will change the future. But right now it is a, a legal multisig effectively is what we have.

So I like actually like that framing because one of the big shifts I think we've seen over the last say year, and I think that has led to a lot of this growth in Dows, maybe even a bit longer than a year. But definitely certainly before like, there's so these two eras, right there's like the the Oregon and colonies and you know, DataStax era of Dows, where there was a lot of focus on decentralization and on a consensus building and, and sort of like minimizing trust, at a contract level. And now, most Dows that we see today are, you know, have have multisig at the core right there, there are trusted people that are operating these organizations. And I think for a lot of people who've been in a space for a long period of time, that was actually a tough thing to see or to sort of wrap their heads around. And yet the people who were maybe a bit newer to the space, really just took that and ran like the ability to spin up a multi SIG and snapshot governance with a token was just like, oh, I can do the things I need to do to practically pragmatically move forward. And I've sort of had that moment, again, when you're talking about the sort of the legal structure because in my mind, I'm like, wow, legal structure, okay, there's like you're introducing this whole other governance layer that actually isn't, doesn't fit so well in with, with the sort of token ownership, snapshot based world that I'm sort of used to. But truly, it's not that much different, right? Like, I mean, there is definitely a legal personhood to it. And there's some liability protections, I'm assuming and apply a bunch of benefits to it. But ultimately, we're still talking about trusted individuals. And you know, where I sit here, I think that's just like, the sort of fascination of trying to reduce trust, I think, at a protocol layer makes a ton of sense. But when you start moving up the stack to where people are actually the core sort of entities interacting. I mean, the reason I can trust you that you will, you know, do advise well, on a project I'm working on isn't because we have a contract in place, there's a whole host of other things that are sort of at play there as well. So I think it's super interesting to sort of even use that term, legal multisig.

There's this great essay that I highly recommend I read it many years ago, and it made a tremendous impact on me, which is Reflections on Trusting Trust. And it's in the Unix context, where traces through essentially, like, at what point do you have to trust someone on chain? And the answer is you always have to trust someone on the chain, where there is no situation where something is completely 100% trustless. Because even if your software is trustless, you're still trusting your hardware manufacturer, for example, are you trusting the creator of a compiler, you're trusting all these different parts of the chain. And I think that that's a very interesting philosophical divide in the database, between multisig and progressive decentralization, and pure trustless on chain governance, because, for example, like with on chain governance, sure, maybe the governance itself directly on chain is trustless. But you're trusting the voting portal you're using to record your vote accurately, you're trusting ether scan, to make this contract accessible, and allow you to write to it if you want to write to the governor directly, you're trusting the people who are sharing the vote, to share like honestly, and to share it correctly. you're adjusting the description of the vote to be accurate with the transaction that's being actually being executed. And there's always trust in the chain. Ideally, it's Trust, but verify where you sir, you're trusting someone's description of what a vote does. And you can actually go in and inspect the transaction and you can see what transaction will be actually executed. But there will always be trust. And I think that this like decentralization, maximalism, and Dows is a world that, you know, we can get to, at some point with the right tooling. But trying to jump to it now creates limitations because the whole chain is not trustless and likely will never be completely trustless. And you're also trading off a different set of risks with on chain voting, you're trading off the risk that the on chain vote could deviate from a snapshot. But that's another form of trust, people take a snapshot vote, and then they trust that the on chain but will follow the snapshot. And there's no accountability for what multisig there is accountability. People are putting their reputations on the line in both the Gnosis safe and also the LLC, that they will be good stewards of this, in my mind, people putting their reputations on the line is more powerful than the idea of just like, oh, well, if this is starting to deviate from Snapchat vote, people will like go in and vote and make sure to snap that but because there's no accountability there, there is accountability and multisig. Like we we I have said this a few times, basically like people have brought up concerns about multi six analyses and it's like we are we are effectively trusting the community members on it to not run off with the money or to not run off of the Constitution. That is something that we have a very high degree of confidence in because everyone here is honest and cares and participants in this community. If you're trusting anonymous wallets do not deviate from the snapshot vote, I don't know, I think that I would prefer the people who have a stake in the community. And that's a great

point with the idea of like, the anonymity and the fact that, you know, maybe some of the highlight is how, you know, how many truly well known individuals and and also yourselves, you know, a large number of contributors, if not, the majority contributors are actually operating under their their legal names here, which is maybe notable in and of itself, you're talking about trust at the LLC level? To me, the big question of trust comes into, like, Who the heck is going to take like, how do you custody and and more importantly, like steward the future of very important historical document that is both fragile and extremely valuable? So I would imagine this idea of custody was sort of like a big question. Yes. Had to tackle what's like the the outcome there?

Yeah, well, if you want to speak to this as well, because I know you've been talking a lot to museums and things, I think that the the first thing to note here is, we don't want this just be a thing that is sitting in some storage facility, and it's going to be safe. And it's going to be expensive to store and to be expensive to insure. But I think that the primary thing that we really want to focus on here is making sure that it's actually somewhere where people can interact with it. And also somewhere where you're, quite frankly, it's going to be in custody from people who are really responsible and taking good care of it, while also having it on display. We're not opening a museum, you know, there's no announcement that's going to be coming in the discord, that we're opening a museum or buying an actual place to, you know, to how's this ourselves? So in lieu of that, you know, we're going to be looking at various museum partners, to work with both now and in the future, to be able to display this. And again, I think the thing that's so great about the participatory governance component here is that the community is going to decide exactly what happens there. But we'll honor if you want to speak more to that.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I mean, that's where we want to partner really closely with nonprofit and cultural institutions, to help this be a rotating exhibit where the community gets to decide where it goes next and decide who the stewards of this document are. And, yeah, there's a decent window where Sotheby's will hold the constitution for us. And at that point, is when we have the time to really work closely with the community on where should go next. Like once we win this, I hope we win this, where does it go next? Do we want to put this in a place where there'll be lots of foot traffic? Like, you know, like, we happen to be talking to lots of museums in New York, just because a bunch of us happened to be located in New York, that's where our best connections are? Do we want to have those travel to like small towns throughout the country, and allow everyone to see hands on a document that they might not have been able to see in person? Because a lot of the copies are very far away? Do we want to have this travel internationally? And like, have this constitution be like an artifact that can go abroad? That's up to the Indian government? That's up for them to decide. And that's something that's really exciting is like, a lot of people are talking about, hey, what are the values of this project, the values of this project or participation, the basil's project or inclusivity, but where we decide where the Constitution goes next, that is a statement of values that is very fundamentally a statement of what we believe and where they should be shown, and who should experience this. And that's where the participatory elements come in. Because by voting on where it goes, next, we are all voting on our values.

The community is defined by its actions.

I love that. Okay, so we're coming up on the hour, and there's a couple other threads that I want to pull on. What did I miss? If I'm thinking about the the hurdles or challenges you guys have had to overcome in the last few days, which is such? Again, the wrote down in my notes here, absurd, this whole thing is absurd. It's just, it's just so absurd. And I love it because of that. But over the last few days, you know, we've talked about some of the IRL URL challenges, some of the challenges of getting sort of trust and folks to come together. There's a time constraint challenge. Any others that maybe aren't so obvious to those on the outside they've had to overcome?

Gosh, you know, I think that it's just the sheer amount of work that's involved with this. And the amount of the amount of time that everybody's spending, you know, this weekend, that people are going to be spending probably this this coming week, leading right up to the auction. I think this is just a major undertaking. It's definitely it's on a marathon. It's kind of like one of those 100 milers or something like that. And it it's everybody who's doing this and they kind of weren't prepared to do it's not like everybody who's here was training for 100 mile race. They kind of just heard about it and they put their shoes on decided that it was time to go you know people who under-trained for these marathons and things they tend they can finish. But it's hard, right. And I think that it's really about the community and people sort of willingness into existence. Because unless you have that spirit of, there's something really important happening here. And we're all contributing to that. And we're lifting each other up and sort of pulling each other, you know, towards this goal. I think that that's, that would be really hard to see us be successful, just because of the sheer amount of work energy required to make this happen. Because again, there will said earlier, this is something that on the surface seems almost wildly unachievable. And now we've gotten to a point where, hey, we're, we're not solid, we haven't we haven't bought this thing yet. We haven't won this auction yet. But it's certainly it's certainly much more achievable now than it was 48 hours ago, or 72 hours ago, or whatever it might be.

I also think that one thing, I mean, that was always chaotic, and just having everyone be informed about the same things, working on the same things, and like pulling them same directions, is surprisingly difficult. Like we had what how many GitHub repos were set up as constitution down? Like, like, there was chaos of even where should the code go? And again, like, that's where like, in the earlier stages, you do need, like more of like, Okay, we're gonna do it this way. And then the later stages many more radically scale it and radically make it radically participatory. But yeah, I think that anyone who is curious what Dows are, like, just dive in and join the discord. Because there's no better way to understand ours, than to during this crash course of what this is actually, like. All of you watching on Thursday morning, right before the auction goes live, kept doing the discord. See what see what it's like, it'll be chaotic. It'll be crazy. It'll be super hectic. Maybe we'll be super far from the goal. Maybe we'll be way over, maybe like your hair will be on fire. Who knows. But yeah, it's it's just this, this, this kind of chaos is simultaneously difficult, and sometimes like trying to coordinate just what is going on and who is doing it. And this chaos is also beautiful, because out of this chaos, and we're just these just incredible accomplishments that no individual could achieve alone. That's where like, we're not the court team. Like we don't view ourselves that way. We just view ourselves as people who are basically saying, I'll handle this, you know, so to get we're saying we'll handle will help with will help with entity formation will help with getting through some of these awkward process. Julian is doing a ton of work around, slicing through that chaos, essentially. And there's no one doing a better job at keeping everything aligned. And Julian, but that's just because we volunteer to handle something. And the great part is that everyone can volunteer for what they want to handle. And

the funny practical matter of that is that I think I have a call on my calendar for tomorrow with somebody who's reached out to set up a call to talk about constitution, Dow and C club. And completely unrelated Lee Julian and I had a call that had been rescheduled a few times on Friday. And I didn't even like put all these things together. And so there's just this like, wave or network of individuals that are all reaching out. And yeah, I just think that it's it's, I couldn't even tell you who's at the center of this thing. Like I just keep discovering more and more people who are like, more and more of us. Yeah, we

are all constitution doubt. There is no your constitution down, you're not constitution DEP every single email you receive from someone saying the Constitution, assuming they're acting in good faith, and are good stewards of this project. And it's not like is,

is I am the founder of constitution. Dow, thank you very much.

I guess just everyone watching. Come and join the discord, and share that fundraising link with people and participate. You are all constitutional?

I mean, I feel like I want to leave it on that. But I have like one other question here, which is like, and maybe a completely unfair question to ask of both of you right? Now, when you're in the midst of this, like, just get shit done mode. But what if we like, let's just assume this is wildly successful? And, you know, we're two years down the line, and people were looking back on this sort of this week coming up? What is it that you kind of hope to achieve? Are you hopeful sort of last stand the test of time or be the meme that carries on during your

first role? Yeah, I think that the thing that's interesting to me is that this is possibly the most important historical artifact that is in direct public hands, in terms of governance over where it goes, how it's displayed. I mean, obviously, like there are copies of the Constitution that are stored by the government, and those are, like indirectly, in public hands, but you can't, like decide what's on the plaque next to the Constitution that exists in the National Archives. You can't decide where it goes next. You can't decide what those values are, that it should be displayed alongside. That's not something that individuals have an ability to choose. And I hope that two years from now, if we wait And then people are looking back on this, they see that there's this radical new model where everyone can participate in what these values are, where it's not a small group of people who are owning this and putting up plaques and deciding how it's framed and assigned how it's presented. This is like Julian said, like this has united people across the political spectrum. And the Constitution means different things to different people.

I love that. And I agree with all of it, I'll just add an additional one, which is in two years, you know, I think it would be amazing if the people who participated in the the winning bid for this, were completely dwarfed by all of the people who participated in ownership of the Constitution now, after, you know, after after the auction after the gavel, that would be really amazing. Because that would mean that we'd onboarded so many more people into web three, they've learned about what was possible with this new form of collaboration, these new technologies. And that to me, in addition to what well said, really brings it home. And tap. We're really excited about the future.

Gentlemen, I know you have no shortage of work to get done and things to do. Really appreciate you taking an hour out of your day on a Sunday evening to chat with us here at Sea Club. We'll be watching in earnest over the next week. And as we do publish Thursday morning, folks, the crowd fund is live right now. The auction is about to happen. You're listening to idle conversation with folks that have happened on a Sunday evening as they prepare to sort of advance into the final stretches of what was a Yeah, an ultra marathon over seven days. And so I guess constitution down on Twitter is a really great place. I'm sure there'll be a lot of action happening there. We'll be tweeting about it at Sea Club as well. If you're looking to find the right links to get into to really discussion is sort of this live experience of being in a Discord is something big is happening is something that I was reflecting on the other night and just it's so unique. It's like this, this troll box, but it evolved. And it is quite the experience. So if you're sitting here, you're not in adapt. I mean, we speak to good luck. If you're sitting here you're not remotely in a down because I think this conversation could be a little little deep for that. But respect if that's who you are, hop into this discord, it's going to be a cultural experience. At the very least, I've no idea where we're sitting here right now as far as the amount of funds raised, etc. But, you know, Dows are about rewarding folks who take leadership and ownership and lean in. And I can imagine there's no shortage of opportunity to do that. Even here today, as you listen on Thursday morning. So hop in to the Constitution now constitution down on Twitter. Julian, well, we're gonna share some links in our show notes to to you, folks, everybody knows who you are already? Well, because you've been all over the show to so many times and all the retweets, etc. But Julian has been an absolute pleasure to get to know you over the last little while, and just to see the level of giving a shit that you bring to, to your work into this project specifically. So really appreciate you spending the time here with us. And if there's anything else you want to leave our audience with, give me a moment here to do that.

I think I think I'm good. The Constitution down comm is where you can actually contribute. And you know, you're listening to this. It's Thursday morning. We're really excited to have you in the discord. have you be a participant and deciding sort of the future of this, this, this copy of the Constitution? It's going to be great.

Awesome. Gentlemen, appreciate your time. And we'll see you guys on the internet.

Thank you so much.

Welcome to your show, you can just give yourself a brief intro.

Awesome. My name is Sir Sue. I'm a designer. I'm an artist, sometimes an activist, and I am a very large fanatic of history, have entered into the crypto space back in 2016, working in construction and logistics supply chain management, and slowly found myself into the crypto space when it relates to culture and all of web three, I think I've found sort of the place that not only is a an area that I can kind of flex my entire bit of expertise from service design to anthropology and design thinking, but also a place where anything is particularly possible. We are kind of crafting the future in real time.

So you've sort of gained a lot of attention for being outspoken. I think that you refer to yourself as being sometimes an activist, but I think you've really stepped in. There's no doubt challenges in web three around Yeah, sure. Accessibility, but diversity, for sure. And this is something that I've seen you both in our private conversations and your Twitter feed, which is exciting. Very often, you've been taking action and building and sort of that would you consider things like the cookout and Blackhand part of your activism or I'm really curious about those two projects

a little bit. I would say the crypto cookout is more so kind of like the the full embodiment of that. activism since it deals with themes of reclamation of digital identity and sort of collective action, community ownership, generational wealth, things of that nature and that through line. And then Blackhand, I think is in many ways, unapologetically black, but also just very much rooted in gaming culture and a lot of the initial things that really taught me what community actually means. And so I feel like that kind of is like it's this really cool, love letter to my childhood, but also being able to say there's something there that I can build on. But I think the cookout is definitely more so like this is boots on the ground, grassroots real meaty activism in a sense, and hopefully looking to find ways to expand that further.

So for those who were unaware of the CoCo was a series of party beds to purchase two crypto punks that I guess were generally I mean that black crypto punks, or crypto punks of color are being grossly undervalued compared to those of white crypto punks, or even white settler,

zombies apes. Everything else

was weird. Yeah, yeah. So like you'd really like in the course of a weekend brought a ton of attention together, what was the result of those two party moods? We

had about 432 contributors in total pulled together close to $850,000, I think in USD value at the time, that was roughly about 210 eath. And we bought two crypto punks, affectionately named Holly and tiara.

Yes, proud supporter of both of those. So you're like you have a lot of experience in this sort of bringing people together to go build something. So obviously, you know, we're speaking here today, specifically about this project constitution. Dow that is, you know, taking over my Twitter feed for sure. And I think it's bleeding into mainstream media, and in a bunch of ways, the group of people come together to buy the Constitution. And, you know, we just had Julian and will on who we're talking about the intentions behind the project. And it's very much around the idea of getting more people more attention into web through the sort of collective ownership over one of like, a fairly seminal document and history democracies. And you know, I think they would argue in in human rights as well, though, I think there's obviously a whole other part of the story here that, you know, I think it has sort of risen alongside the interest in this sort of project. And so we're seeing some very thoughtful critique of the project. And I think, you know, you are one of those voices who just consistently erases from the crowd. I know. So I'm curious, like, what do you what is your general take on constitution dowel, specifically,

where? So yeah, it's definitely something I've followed, I had a couple of people that were working on organizing it that reached out to me to talk about kind of bringing the cookout and things of that nature in there. And so what I told them initially to and sort of my my general throughline take is, you know, this this document is, is incredibly political by nature. It is, in many ways the stamp of America, it's sort of like the founding of it at least back 245 years ago. But that document and the time in which it was sort of made and the folks that looks like me, that were a part of America at that time, were not represented in the fairest of ways, if at all. And so that kind of creates like this sort of thing, where the act of buying this document is, in many ways, incredibly political to, and we can't take the politics out from this document and just say that this is a group rallying cry to get access into web three. Sure, that's part of it. But the other part of it is that by buying this political document, we are now stewards of in many ways, America's founding culture. And so what does that mean for the people who hold it? By having that responsibility of being one of the members of these documents? For instance, let's just say randomly, all these other copies disappear. And this is the last document that is here, right? For us? Are we willing to carry that responsibility of having this document that holds America's values? Or, for instance, are we able to say, let's have a hard look at what America has become what America is? And could this be a catalyst to change it or to make something else of it? So for me, it's a very contentious document. Because there's there's more weight to it than I think a lot of people realize, I just want people to intentionally think about the act of buying this and what happens afterwards. Because this is not just a win for web three, but this could be potentially a win for America. But it also could be a virtue signal, the same sort of post racial society, ideology that people had when Obama came into office, but we realized after he was in office, racism showed up in other ways, and we had police shootings that were monthly and monthly that turned into daily, then that turned into a meme of FIDE President taking office, Donald Trump for instance. And then now where we are now. So For me, my take is not like Doom creating. But it is just saying, there's a lot more to this than then folks think.

So I'm seeing some pushback, and you know, So full disclosure, I'm Canadian. And so this document has like, hold like, it's more mythological than it is real in any sense to me. But I think some of the critique is, you know, even directly calling this document racist. Is that is that sort of like a general feeling or belief? I'm truly ignorant of like the, obviously not the broader politics around it, but around like the the gravitas of that one document?

Absolutely. It's racist in a couple of different ways. Oh, one of the articles, I think it's Article One, Section Two specifically talks about political power when it comes to states, and how if you have folks that are jailed, not necessarily job trying to figure out the right terminology for this, but essentially, it's our it's folks who are not free. And we can connote that folks who are not free, our current slaves, which are people who look like me, are regarded as three fifths of a man, which changes the type of political power that those people hold. But what it did was it didn't give us agency within that political power, but it gave slave owners agency that they were able to use the slaves that they had, as political point to have constituents to vote for them. So that type of fundamental policy that's written within the Constitution is basically saying, Oh, if you have slaves, that means you can make some things happen. And if you think about American Civil War, that happens in 1800s, you can kind of see why there's a there's butting heads from both from the north and the south. They're trying to retain their political power, and the Civil War had threatened it. So it's not just about states rights, but you know, it's about also keeping the power that they had, most graciously, I suppose, wielded, at least in the benefit for them. So it's definitely racist, at least in that context, for sure.

That's helpful. I had heard of that, but didn't realize it was in this document, I feel very lucky to have such thoughtful human beings and around our community to be able to fly these sort of things. Because I feel like I'm always sort of like muddling my way forward and very settling on a lot of the stuff. I mean, I can understand the pushback in that sense, it sounds like so there's another sort of thread I'm seeing of sort of critique of this around the sort of like that the use of money, like $20 million can be used, or whatever they end up price is could be used for so many better things. And which I think is an interesting critique, and one that can probably be leveled at many things in the crypto space, rather fairly. But I did see this idea of repatriation doubt, that kind of, I think, one of your followers or somebody that you follow had shared? I'm not sure if their name, I don't know if you know, their names.

I know, a David Phelps that talked about it. Right. And then the incredible rabbis had also talked about it as well. It's so good.

I mean, the takeaway that I even have from like your intro to the sort of criticism or concern around it was less about the act of buying it, but more about the responsibility of owning it. And I think like, Will, and Julian and probably many of the other contributors, Constitution doubt what sort of at least acknowledged that that there's so much going into to buying this thing now. But truly, like, the hard work, or the big opportunity follows, or comes after you've captured its attention. You have people in community now Now, what are you going to do with it? What would you say to to folks who say this is successful? And now this responsibility is on their shoulder? What are the things that we should be thinking about? Or what are your hopes for? Maybe how how this document would be stewarded?

That's an excellent question. I think the first thing is for that entire group to understand kind of the general makeup of all the people that have contributed, are there people that look like us, like me, that are there? Are there people that are, for example, trans or LGBTQ, for example, in that community, right, because we know that for many of us, there have been levels of contention when it comes to America, Americans values and Americans politics, around our identity and our way of life. And so, if you can identify if they want themselves to be identified, that's also the other thing too, if they Doc's themselves, in a sense, at least for that part of their identity. There's a honest conversation that could potentially happen with this with these groups to say, Listen, like we've contributed to this, because maybe we see that there is this level of optimism in leveraging this as a catalyst for some other political ever. And as a result, we definitely need your help and your ally ship in order to make that happen. Right. And I think that kind of conversation should be had. I don't know if it can, but it shouldn't be hard, if possible, because at least that allows everyone else to really level set and kind of understand the weight and the gravity of what just happened. It's not just about oh my god, we got 20 minutes dollars or 10 million or however much the sale is. But it's also about kind of like now that all of us have brought this thing together, we bought this document, we can see it in a museum or something to that effect. We are now one of the Vanguard's of America's life split. And if something happens to this document, we are responsible for it. But if we, for example, one idea that someone had posed was to an act of protest, political protest, burn it, right. Let's say that happens, which if I was a part of this constitution, I probably would vote for it. But what these what would that group be willing to accept the responsibility, the backlash, for instance, of an act like that? Not that it's treasonous? Because it's not because we do have the Bill of Rights, thankfully, right? First Amendment rights to freedom of speech that does protect us. But are we ready to have that kind of real conversation as to why we believe that, for example, those values are outdated, and that we were presented with a new ideal. And I'm often thinking about our history, and how the, the presentation of one movement was then rejected by a succeeding movement. So if you think about data ism, for example, they came through early 1900s, saying, everything that you know about cubism, everything else is trash, like data is the way futurism is the way this is what we're doing here. This is this is what real artists, and then after that another movement said, Whatever they're talking about is hogwash. This is the new thing, right? And so we have this, this this history of rejecting ideals that might be outdated. And I think after 245 years, we can ask ourselves, is this still working for us? And if so, then, what about it does work? And if not, could we present something different now that we do have this opportunity of owning a document of such political weight?

Fascinating, I'd be fascinated to see what the actual breakdown of contributors are, you know, I've been watching the channel and seeing, you know, it's probably approaching 1000 eath, at this point, 910 eath, as I'm looking at here, right now, and Monday afternoon, wow, Pacific time. And so it's about maybe a quarter of the way where they need to get to, and we're seeing a lot of like, point 05 point 1.001 eath contributions, obviously, anonymous folks released on, we don't know, sort of the breakdown of it, but hazard to guess that it's going to be very skewed in the same ways that most crypto projects are skewed, right, like some data out there around, you know, 75%, female of, you know, vast majority of those being white. I'm curious, like, you know, and I think as I sent you a message before, like, last thing I want to talk to you about as being like my one black friend in crypto, but like, you're one of a few and it is like, like a representation of the big challenge I think we have. And so like, my expectation is that you probably are going to get a lot of conversations like this. And I'm like, like, seriously, I don't want you to be like this. I don't want that to be a relationship. But I also think it's an interesting window. And I think you've been very much at the forefront of trying to sort of address these in a way that I really respect, which is not purely about criticism that's through action. And I'm curious, like, what, what is the hopeful part for you here? Like, what do we do here, whether it's within constitution hour, or more generally that, you know, we're very much in danger of sort of retrenching the existing power dynamics here and went through like, I think it's a concern that we all should be very aware of as being. I mean, the reality today, I think, slightly different, but very similar in its distribution. How are you thinking about sort of tackling that addressing that? What should we be thinking about?

We're another excellent question. Has anyone told you that you're a great interviewer? Because if they haven't, I will be the first to tell you that you're incredible.

We'll just get a Samsonite ticket that and use that as a cup.

I love that I love that's a great problem. Um, yeah, no. So I think for me, what I enjoy doing is being incredibly open about how I feel about things. I think it not only helps me process thoughts in a very cogent way, but it can offer a particular window that other people can look into. And I had a conversation with someone on Twitter earlier today, and he was offering their perspective. And, you know, I told them that, hey, listen, you know, all I offer is perspective. And then my personal choice, the things that I'm going to be doing. And every choice that you decide to make is entirely up to you, you own those choices, just like I own mine. And I think that's a beautiful thing about crypto is that we have this level of sovereignty and ownership of our own actions. And so I think like to continue to sort of address a lot of these issues. What I will give credit to this constitution, Dallas that invited this level of conversation. And I think that's kind of like the the formative first thing, right is to at least even talk about the dissenting opinion. And to kind of give light to some of the other perspectives that actually may be beneficial and useful for us. And I often think about critical thinking and folks just taking another second to pause and wonder hmm, I'm looking at it from the perspective that I know I've looked at things. What if I put that aside and thought about it from the lens of someone else that I don't know No, like a friend, or a family member, or someone that is of differing experience, how might they see this? Assuming they know the same language of web three, or assuming they don't? Right? What what does that look like? And I think the more we start kind of having these sort of these personas in our head that we can ping ideas towards, the more that we will kind of come to better and more holistic conclusions about what type of work we actually want to put forth. And the viewpoints that we can offer, when conversations are happening about things like this, because this is not, this is not going to be the only document of political reverence, for example, or have some sort of historical reference, that's going to be available for us to bid on, or for us to own collectively, it just so happens that there's an opportunity here to make a statement with this. And so if we take, if we look at what we're doing in this space as case studies, then we ask ourselves, okay, if this is going to be presented in this sort of context, if something else like this comes down to for how might we look at it? How might we approach it? Would it be a good idea? And if it is a good idea, then what are those levers that we can really pull on? And if it's not necessarily a good idea, then what can we do maybe as a response? For instance, there's been some counter in relation to the Constitution, but also say, Well, what about the 13th 14th and 15th? Amendment, which then wrote in a the abolishment of slavery, and of course, voting rights and things of that nature? Right? If that's what about reclaiming and buying those? How might that actually like be beneficial to us? That could be something that's interesting. And of course, repatriation, reparations, a lot of those other kind of conversations. These can even pour into things like well, how do we solve crises and housing? Or how do we solve crises and Food deserts are information deserts, right? There's a litany of course of world problems that we potentially can solve. And if the Constitution now ends up being the the the jump off point for those conversations to then inspire action, then I would call that part of success, not necessarily the owning of it, but anything related to that. But I think just the fact that we're having this conversation, if it inspires others to say, let's do something different, and something more radical, then I think that would be incredible. I hope that answers your question. I think I kind of did a little bit of something. So

yeah, that's great. Yeah, I think that's I largely agree with that statement. I think, you know, my personal reaction to this was one of being, you know, just I'm fascinated with this space, and with building in the space and with communities building in the space. And, you know, while C clubs not directly involved in constitution data we have many of our members are and have been in conversations with them, just building something a little bit different than what sort of core to what we build. But I'm just fascinated, like, there's so many lessons to be learned in all of this stuff. And I think, yeah, the two things that sort of standing up to me, as you were sharing, there was one, just helping me, like refocus why I find this interesting. And I think it is like, a window into the building of this thing. And just something that can capture broad appeal and attention. I think that's just such a, like, I truly believe that to be a big and worthy thing. But then to is just like this constant reminder of crypto equals responsibility or web three, those responsibility and that level of responsibility is actually grows, right? It's larger than then maybe just holding your private keys. Maybe it just sort of as a way of closing here a little bit, what would you like to leave our audience with, you know, so, context here, we've had an amazing run here with the seat club podcast, like we've had some amazing guests on, I think this episode is gonna be very popular, just given the timing, I just love being able to talk with people who give a lot of shits about the space and you are obviously one of those people and you know, we have a long history relative to web three and stuff like that. So get to know you through various few different stages. And I think I'd really to see you like, stepping onto the stage in such a like, I think how you phrase it that just sharing your opinion. And, you know, speaking honestly, about how you're feeling I just respect the hell out of that. So long winded way of me saying like, the heck should you do want to tell people here? What do you guys are working on? What would you like to leave people with? Yeah,

word, I'm gonna say, you can follow me at Sur su haip. On Twitter, I saw RSU Ha, y B. That's pretty much where you're gonna see all of my activity. And all the stuff that I'm working on. It's in my profile. I don't think I need to get into that specifically. But I think in relation to this kind of conversation and about the creation of Dows. And, you know, just even thinking about my experience at Sea Club to is that this space is incredibly powerful and liberating, if you anchor the work that way. And I think that we all are starting to feel the weight shift in our direction, in different ways about how we can leverage our responsibility to make something really incredible. No matter how small or minute the idea might be. We have an opportunity to to let our ideas run wild when there are so many incredible people that are willing to join in that journey with you, despite the critique that I have about buying the Constitution, for instance, the fact that there are an incredible amount of people rallying together for a cause, like this does give me pause, right? It gives me this, this hope that there are other opportunities in sort of that similar vein that people like me can take action on and be really happy and spider about. It's not just about like the crypto cookout being an example or just even the first party bid of the zombie punk right Day of the Dead, for instance, being incredibly successful too. But we've been able to see a lot of these other micro effects happening if we're thinking about Holic mall and holders land or we're thinking about Daniel Allen and his particular crowdfund Initiative, or we're thinking about M Club, or we're thinking about the crypto society Dow, for instance, about bringing liberal arts into this space, right? Like, there, there's a litany of ideas. And if you have one, then we invite you to present it. And if it needs some help some smithing around the edges, and the Sea Club is a place for you to go to, to sharpen that knife, for instance. And when you're ready to really put that out there, then there are many people in the space that are just looking for that thing that I that they identify with that says that's me and they'll join it. This space is is like the most incredible plug and play multiplayer experience I think I've I've ever been a part of. And I just want to leave people with this idea that things can truly be limitless. There's a whole lot of work behind the making that possible. But the audacity that we can have in this space to do something like you know, buying the Constitution, for instance, or reclaiming black crypto punks, for example, or whatever the case is, right? It's not just possible, but it's happening right now. So hop in the bus. Regarding crypto.

Seriously, I appreciate you taking time out of your Monday evening on short notice to join us here and share your perspective. I encourage everybody to go give him a follow on Twitter. It's the very least entertaining but very most likely educational. Thank you, sir. We'll see you soon.

Thank you Chad soon, brother.