2022-01-04 Motivation and Social Awareness of Elite Athletes

11:12PM Jan 5, 2022

Speakers:

Alison Sander

John Werner

Larry Nagler

Keywords:

tennis

play

larry

ucla

tennis player

arthur

question

athletes

sports

tennis courts

lawyer

paddle tennis

tournaments

great

basketball

coach

arthur ashe

won

thought

good

Welcome to imagination in action, where we have conversations with compelling people driving the action that will power our futures. These are successful Imaginators you want to know

Larry was a young boy growing up in New York, and he was an accomplished athlete and ended up from what I understand playing a lot of tennis while he did some other sports, and he was ranked in the US. I hear a vacuum cleaner in the background. Yeah, I'm sorry.

That was just that you will not hear

no worse. Yeah. And he was ranked number third and youth tennis and ended up finding his way to UCLA. And when he was at UCLA, he was a walk on for John wooden's basketball team. I think this was a few years before he started having his 10 NCAA championships. But while this is billed as a as media tennis player, you're also meeting someone who played on on John wooden's basketball team who I know wouldn't is a legend in that world. So definitely want to understand a little bit about that. I think your tennis coach was JD Morgan, or you were connected with JD Morgan, who built athletic complex or was the athletic director at UCLA and so want to dive into what it was like at UCLA during this sports era. And then you had some interesting classmates. I think someone named why see? Why why is it was it YC or YK? PK Yang? Yeah, who went on to be an Olympian and Rafer Johnson who went on to be Olympian and the two of them were gold and silver medalists in the decathlon, and they were people who are training around you. And I'm sure you had some interesting connections with them. So want to dive down that. And then while hazard who was like LeBron James type of that era, was the basketball player, Olympian, I think and a Laker and future UCLA coach for basketball. So when asked you about him, and then in 1960, I see that you won the NCAA tennis championship, but if I do the math, right, you would have been a sophomore, when you won the NCAA. Is that right? That's right. Yep. And then I'm curious. You know what that was, like, you know, had you favored to win? Were you an underdog? And then what happened? Your junior and senior year? And then I think your senior year when you were captain, Arthur Rath ash joined the team. So curious, you know what that was like, what he was like, as a collegiate athlete as a teammate. And, and then I know, there's some interesting stories about motorcycles. I think you sold some motorcycles to Arthur, I think you you drove a motorcycle, and so on, I want to hear all about that. And then, you know, today, everyone knows tennis as it is today. But there was a time before the open era and amateurs in an open play. Want to hear all about what that era was like? And, you know, what were some of the things that were going on and, and I know you're a Jewish by background and African Americans were new to the sport at a high level with Arthur Ashe breaking through and there were Brahmins or Blue Bloods playing the sport so curious on your take on that. And then and then I think after UCLA, you played doubles with Arthur Ashe for a little bit curious to know, you know, what he was thinking and what that was like. And, and then I know, you told me about a plane crash in Bolivia, in the jungles. So want to hear all about that. And then I know you have a connection with Sylvester Stallone and the Supreme Court, and you're passionate about Paddle Tennis. We're going to come back to the sport of tennis. But it will be panel tennis towards the end. But does this sound like a good list of topics to to explore? Larry,

it does to me. I hope it's interesting to others, as I say, Yep.

Great. Before I ask a first question, Allison, just as I kind of highlighted some of the things that I think are going to be interesting here what any, anything in particular top of mind for you.

Gosh, well, Larry, I definitely get so fascinating because we've had guests before For who seemed to have lived multiple lives, and I feel like you're one at the top of that. So I'm very fascinated of just the movement, as John said, I mean, what took you from one sport to another? And? And how do you decide sort of when to move on to the next theme? So I can't wait for tonight. Thank you.

Great. So So, Larry, you were a young boy growing up in New York City? When did you realize that you were an a good athlete, and that you could compete on a high high level? Like, what were your kind of first memories of realizing that you had good eye hand coordination or endurance or, or you were, you could mentally psych out your opponents? And then I want to ask, you know, how did you choose the sport that you doubled down on but when did you first realize you were such a good athlete?

at a relatively young age, I started to do things that people started to comment on, even before I was 10, you know, small things, but to others indicated that I had athletic talent, and, you know, examples of playing catch with adults, and throwing the ball so hard to them that they could not handle it, or kicking a soccer ball so far, and so, so hard, that it astounded everybody to be it came very naturally. And in the early days, would all say from 10 until 14 or so the kids would leave the house at 8am on a weekend, and they wouldn't return until six and they were playing sports the entire time. And it became apparent quickly that I was blessed with certain athletic talent. When I first really understood that it was abnormally good was when I started to play tennis. I started at 13. And my father was good enough to take me to the tournaments all around New York. And when I was 14, I started to basically win these tournaments, they had age divisions at that time, the cutoff was 15. And under an 18, and under, and I would enter the 15. And under tournaments, and all of a sudden, I would get to the finals and or win the tournaments at 14. And at age 15. I basically want everything I touched in the in the East. And I came to the attention of tennis pros who invited me to to play in what they called clinics. It was very informal in those days, there was in fact only one clinic of substance in Long Island in those days. And that was held at a very, very wealthy family's home, the Ogden Phipps family, well known in the thoroughbred racing community. Anyhow, the Phipps had a young boy who did he who was my age, and the parents had an outdoor court and an indoor court. And they had people that, you know, I would visit over there and they had people who would actually take your shoes and clean them your tennis shoes and clean them. And then the next day, you'd have clean shoes and everything and and new clothes were ironed out and everything. It was rather remarkable to see the way some people lived. And so by age 15, it was it was clear that I had talent that was at a national level. That's a long winded answer to your question.

Now when when you like today, when you think of youth training to be tennis players, you think of a coach you think of weights you think a strategy, mental yoga, like all all sorts of things. Did you have any of that? Were you lifting weights did you have? Were you listening to a record a phonograph that was helping you meditate? Like what was your training, like when you were in high school to be a great tennis player? Well,

we had nothing of the types of things that are commonplace today for a tennis player and I believe in other sports as well. That was designed to make you the best that you could be. We did not have a team of people helping us. In fact, I basically had little or no coach until I got to UCLA. And everything that I did, I figured out for myself under pressure in matches. And that's how I improved. I I did not do any running, I did not do any diet dynatech type of help, no weightlifting, nothing in the way of training, the only training that I had was to play whatever sport was available at that time, as long as I could until I dropped, I mean. So the way things were done then is totally different from the way things are done now, including the fact that today, the kids are, if they show talent, at a very, very young age, they are exposed to coaches, to trainers, two psychologists, one of my closest friend. In fact, actually my closest friend was my college, tennis doubles partner. His name is Alan Fox who

got I just want to point out on his website, he references you as his college nemesis, or something for some tournaments that you had to go head to head. But he spoke of you very lovingly, but I thought that was interesting.

Well, Alan, is the guy that brought me to UCLA. And Alan was the number one tennis player in the United States at the time that he brought me to UCLA. And he was not concerned with me, because he beat me in the finals of the national JC tournament, just before I entered UCLA. And so he was concerned, I was just more fair for him for his machine. And not only that, but because I was playing basketball as a freshman at UCLA, I wasn't really able to attend to practicing tennis nearly as much as he did. So he figured, well, this is going to be great. I'll have Larry here. And I'll still be the number one. And what happened is, you could not play varsity as a freshman. But when I became a sophomore, he and I played in the finals of three consecutive tournaments. And I won all of those tournaments, beating him in the finals. And he went insane. I remember that. After I won the singles tournament in the in the conference championship, beating Allen in the finals, he went over to a big oak tree and he took his three wooden rackets. And he smashed each one of them into smithereens on the side of the tree. And we were supposed to play the doubles final momentarily. And he turned to me and I was watching this happen. He says, You're not going to win another championship today, Larry. And we got beaten by our teammates, who were equally good tennis players in the finals of the conference championship that year. But Alan, and I became the best of friends. And if we get into it later, he was the pilot on the plane that we crashed, landed in the Bolivian jungle and basically saved our lives. There were three of us in the plane. But that's that's a whole other story. Yes.

Our show so you've arrived at UCLA? I want to come back to wood rackets and technology a little bit later. But what brought you to UCLA? And then we're going to get into tennis, but talk about what it was like going out for the basketball team. And what was John Wooden, like? Is this the beginning of a dynasty? Like did people know that he was the, you know, who's the coach at Duke? That he was going to become a legend? Like, what was it like playing in his program? And I know you played freshman sophomore there and, and he may and I think you told me that he said that you're you're the one that got away in terms of someone that he he wished he was able to coach off for years, but you didn't stay off for years. So when we go to tennis, tell me a little bit how'd you choose USC, UCLA and and what was it like being part of that basketball dynasty?

Well, you've asked like, you know, 14 questions there. So let me let me you want me to answer How did I choose UCLA and then and go from there?

Yep. And if I'm going to marking to make sure you answer every 14 question asked, no, feel free. Have fun. I know you're a lawyer. But this is more to celebrate your life.

Thank you. Thank you. Well, I wanted to play tennis at the highest level collegiately that I could possibly play There were only a half a dozen schools at that time that were considered the elite collegiate tennis programs. And UCLA was certainly one of them. USC was another. And, as I mentioned to you earlier, my dear friend, Alan Fox, who was on the national junior Davis Cup team with me, convinced me to go to UCLA. And I, that was my number one choice. I came from New York. And I went on to the UCLA campus. And it was a beautiful day. And I looked around and I saw that the campus was spectacularly beautiful. And they were beautiful, young women walking around, and I was like, starstruck. And I was ushered into JD Morgan's office. At that time, he wasn't the athletic director, he was the tennis coach. But he was the business manager for the university. And I come into his his office, and he had a very deep gravelly voice and he's, you know, famous at UCLA for many things, but Nagler love to have you here at the UCLA tennis program. And, you know, I walked into the office, I was already convinced this is where I want it to be. And I said, I'm in JD. And so that's how I got to UCLA. Then if you want to talk a little bit about basketball, the basketball program starts in the fall, almost immediately after you get into school. And even though I was playing tennis, and playing with the team and all of that, I had played basketball at in high school, I was all conference, I had done certain things of of, of importance in high school basketball. And I figured that I'm going to play basketball here. So I walked into the gym. And the guys were all very, very big, very, very tall. And at the time, one of them was Gary Cunningham, who became the basketball coach for UCLA after immediately after John Wooden retired, so he was on my team, Pete Blackman was on my team. These guys eventually, after I dropped out, they eventually got to the semifinals of the NC, two A's, and lost John Lucas, I think, from Cincinnati, or something like that. And, but anyhow, I walked on, and I'm not tall. And I was basically ignored. And I stood there after, you know, a few games went by I became a little bit aggressive and said, You know, I'm, I'm in the next game, there's just no doubt about it. And I jumped on the court. And so they looked at me and I was much shorter, but I was extremely aggressive and extremely fast. And I made it clear in a matter of 10 minutes that I could play with them. And they were actually you know, keeping away from me because I was, I was rough tough customer for for a smaller guy. And when I made the freshman team after practice one day, they all grabbed me. They carried me bodily downstairs to the trainer's room. And they got the trainer to get out his shaver when you sit you know, to shave a lay, for to shave the hair off of people's ankles and leg when they were getting when they had sprained ankles. And the they hadn't shaved my head completely, almost bald, because I came from New York and I had a lot of hair. And I also came with glasses at the time. And they let me loose and after a week, I had gotten contact lenses. My hair was completely gone. I was playing basketball, I was on the team and I became a starter on the freshman team and an effective basketball player and of course, wouldn't was involved with that whole thing. And that whole program, and he

came to me, you know, during my freshman year and encouraged me, he watched you know, our practices, he watched all of our games and he and he came and discussed them, and he encouraged me to come back. We had a pretty good season and I was intending to come back and did come back to play as a sophomore. And of course, I was very excited about that. But you know, I could see that it was very, very, very difficult to try to do the two sports at the same time. And, you know, eventually that led to a decision if you want to talk about that we can.

Yeah, so maybe tell tell us a little bit more about wooden, you got to know him. You know, years later, as he started his basketball dynasty, what was he like? And what was your relationship to wooden like?

Okay, well, first of all, a lot of people do not know that he was a tennis nut. He coached tennis, in high school in Indiana, also basketball. And he loved tennis. And he thought it was a sport that required great athleticism to be good at it. As far as how he was with me. The relationship was basically coach and underling, and he was the varsity coach, but also the freshmen coach. And although he was involved in the freshman program, he basically had two other coaches that were handling it basically full time. So at that stage, other than the fact that he sought me out on a couple of occasions, and, and encouraged me to continue with my basketball. My relationship with him was very distant at that time. He was a very organized taskmaster type of guy about the practices, the, you know, the team's practice together. And I had, as a sophomore, I went out for the team made the team played a little bit. I'm listed in his book of, you know, when he lists all of his players, I'm in there. But it wasn't really until later, actually, after college, that my relationship with him got special. He came to some of my tennis matches. He, he was kind enough to, to mentor me about whether to stay or not stay in the basketball program. And he incurred he said, you're on the team. But you're not going to start at this stage. He said, You're going to play but you're not going to play a lot at this stage. And you have to decide whether you want to spend your energies playing tennis or you want to spend your energies here. But he says whatever you do, if you play basketball, you're going to have to really give it all you have. And afterwards, after I spoke with him, and he encouraged me to make the decision that he felt that I thought was best for me. He followed me. And we our paths crossed. And he was extremely warm to me. And it got to the point after I got out of school, and after he came to many of my matches that I spent time with him at his home. On many, many occasions, I my son and I spent time with him. My father and I spent time with him. We went out to eat with him. We talked about everything under the sun. And you know, but I don't want to make my relationship with him more than it was. I mean, he he did that with a lot of young people. And at the time that I got close to him was after he had won his major championships. And, you know, he had all of these. His his, his condo was like a museum. You walked in there. And it was like you were back in time. You know, there were trophies everywhere. There were photographs. There were basketballs that, you know, he had his desk. And I mean, it was just like, awards everywhere and on and on. I don't know what, you know, much more than I can add to that. But you know, he was very nice, very nice to me. And he and he was very complimentary of my basketball abilities in public. So I'm very thankful for him to him for that.

Great. So let's so I want to come back to the decathletes in a few minutes. But yeah, let's talk about Tennis. So, you you won the NCAA as a sophomore, you predict were you did people expect you to do that and, and what was that like and maybe talk about what NCAA tennis was like in 1960.

Okay, well, let's talk about NC to a tennis in 1960, a little bit. The west coast was like the center of collegiate tennis plus Texas. And all of the best players went to either UCLA, or USC, or Trinity in Texas. Some went to Stanford. And the West Coast Conference was the roughest, toughest conference. But it wasn't the type of program that exists today. In the sense that there was no training that was part of the programming, there was no weightlifting, there was no running. There was no diet technic control. What happened was, at three o'clock, you're out at the tennis courts dressed and ready to play. And you played until the sun went down. And that was your training. In fact, JD Morgan, although he was a tennis coach, actually wasn't a tennis player. His skill was getting recruits who were terrific. And throwing them together and saying butt heads together. And let's see what happens. So he gathered together as I as I think I mentioned to you on my team. In 1960, when I won the national singles championship, three of the four players that got to the semi finals were from UCLA. Fox was on the other hand, and the other last two Whitney Reed and Norm Perry was on my half and he and I played in the semi finals. So it was very concentrated in the West Coast. And, and for example, we didn't have a stadium at UCLA, we had tennis courts that were in the middle of an orange grove at UCLA at the time, when that that year when I became that my freshman year between my freshman year and my sophomore year, they built a stadium. So when I was a sophomore, we had a stadium under outside, below the dormitories. But my first year, we were we're in tennis courts right next to an orange grove. Now, you can imagine that today they have a beautiful stadium and they have you know, electronic scoreboards and they have, they have trainers and they have everything under the sun. Not to mention that the athletes are so much bigger and stronger today and are working out with weights all the time and running and doing everything they can to make the best of it. So like many other sports, tennis has evolved from what it was then to what it is today in many many ways and collegiate athletes was no different. I mean, we we went to North and we played Kalin Stanford, we, we, you know, we went down south and we played at Palm Springs. We played a tournament there with Charlie Pharaoh's Racquet Club with all of the energy, you know, the people in the movie business hanging out. And you know, it was informal. And it was it was fun. And I don't know You know, today what? You know, I since I haven't experienced that I don't really know what to describe.

So Larry, a, I know Jimmy Connors eventually came to UCLA. And I know McEnroe went to Stanford. But your senior year, a guy from Virginia joined your team named Arthur. Arthur Ashe. What what was that? Like? How did that impact the team? What was your relationship with with Arthur? When you two were teammates at UCLA? Okay, well,

at that time, the freshmen could not play varsity. But of course, the freshmen practice with the varsity. And Arthur came with a class of four tennis players, including Charlie passerelle, who were fabulous. And we had last Alan Fox norm Perry Roger work expense. So our varsity team was not nearly as strong as the freshmen team was. But our our relationship was simply going out and practicing together. And, you know, when we heard that Arthur was going to become at UCLA, we, of course, knew that he was one of the top juniors in the United States. He was a black guy. And he was the only black tennis player of note that was on the horizon. And, you know, it was just he's one of the guys and he was a very, he was a very pleasant human being from the first moment that I met him, but our personal relationship really didn't go much further than practicing together. Then. We started to play tournaments. And I played against Arthur. Between the time he was a freshman and the time he graduated in four tournaments. And he never beat me. And years later, after he won Wimbledon, and won the US championship, and when Australian, when I'd see him, he come up to me and he'd take his index finger and he puts it on my chest, and he'd say, Nagler. He says, I've never beaten you. He said, let's go out and play for $10,000 right now. So I said, Arthur, you had your chance, and that chance is gone. And it's never going to reappear. So then, of course, we we, we had, we had more together later.

And how did how did the team react to Arthur's style? And, and his mannerisms? You know, just seems like such a classy guy. You know, what did you notice? Was it different for him? I know, you said you were a Jewish kid coming from New York. And the a lot of people who played tennis at that time, had a different background, but what were some of the things that you notice that he went through, and some of the things that you went through that maybe tangentially similar?

Well, if you want to focus on UCLA, it was nothing more than Arthur being one of a half a dozen, very, very fine tennis players out there working hard day to day to be the best that they could be. And he had no influence on anything. He, in fact, he was now in a national environment for the first time, having come from Virginia, and the difficulties of being a black guy in the south. And he was acclimating himself. So he was there was nothing in particular in at that stage of things, where he had any, quote, influence on anybody else. He was just one of the guys. But later, after I graduated, I played doubles with him. And we traveled around together and we roomed together, and we spent a lot of time together. And that was the time when I, my relationship with him changed dramatically. And first of all, we're on the same court together battling the best tennis players in the world. And I'm, you know, talking about Roy Emerson, Fred Stalley, the Australians, Rod Laver and, and all of that. And so we had the intense competitive experience together and in that environment, he was exceptionally good under pressure. What when we needed he played the backhand side, I played the forehand side I had played the forehand side and won the NC two A's with Alan Fox ables. And it was decided that he should play the back end I should play forehand and he was extremely good on the ad points under pressure with that beautiful backhand of his and then in terms of our personal relationship, we I invited him over to my house. I was married. I got lox and bagels. We sat down with my wife and he and we You know, he ate a great meal. And we talked about everything under the sun. And, you know, the range of topics was very broad, because he was extremely interested in everything. He was very, very soft spoken. I never saw him get angry on the court, or off the court, I saw him bear down when the pressure was on. And in our conversations, he always wanted to know more, he wanted to know more about the Jewish experience, we talked about the things that were in common between the Jewish experience growing up and the black experience. And, you know, I want to make clear that there's no comparison in terms of what he went through and what I went through. But there are similarities that were interesting to Him, and to me, and which were discussed. And he was politically interested in everything. And I had whatever, you know, I can't tell you that I remember any specific conversations, but I do recall, talking about a lot of serious topics for long periods of time. And when we roomed together, of course, we spent a lot of time together. And, but I never, I never viewed him as a black man. I viewed him as a friend. That's my memory of it. And I can't say that he, quote, influenced me, because I don't think he was the Arthur Ashe he was going to become at that stage. He became that much later. And I

really didn't understand what he was, in those days. I only understood it later, when I observed what he was accomplishing and doing around in the United States and around the world, South African, all of that. Those are all very important stories. And each one of them requires, you know, its own attention. I don't know if I've answered your question, but no, you're

doing great. So I'm going to ask one last question about UCLA sports. And then I'm going to turn it over to Allison. And then I'd love to get a question. And then I want to ask about the amateur, open era of tennis, what was going on in the 60s, but my next question is you had two Olympians competing. For the decathlon who were classmates years at UCLA, one went on to win the silver and 56 the other one, the gold and 1960, and the other. Got the silver in 1960. Maybe talk a little bit about what it was like being around two people who, you know, one represent, I think the country that is now considered Taiwan and another the United States. What was it like being friends with those two and seeing them compete on the national international stage?

Okay, well, first, I want to make clear that my relationship was with Rafer Johnson and not with C K. I mean, C K, I did not. I did not know him. I don't know that he would, would, would would know me, but Rafer was my fraternity and in 1960, and in the in the year between 58 and 61, Rafer was there. I didn't really appreciate that he was, I mean, until he won the gold medal in the Olympic decathlon. I had no idea that Rafer was Rafer. So, what I saw was the tremendous amount of effort and training that he was due doing in all of the events that he was going to be in and re for, was a magnificent specimen of a human being. He was six foot five. He was his body was perfect. He had very broad shoulders. down to a very narrow waist, and very big thighs, and, and he moved beautifully. And he was the humblest guy that you would ever want to meet. So, I mean, here I'm trying to become a basketball player and a tennis player and he's trying to become, you know, make the Olympic team in this and that. And so we would, you know, we would into React, but we didn't really we didn't really I didn't really understand, you know, what I was involved with, of course. Next thing I know, he wins the Olympic decathlon and, and of course, he even became the student body president at UCLA, and he became affiliated with UCLA, his athletic program, he played basketball at UCLA, too. And his brother, Jimmy Johnson, was a football player, and also a friend, and he became a professional football player from San Francisco 40 Niners. And, I mean, I'm very, I was very close to him, but I didn't really. I mean, it was just guys, you know, at the fraternity house, it wasn't. It wasn't anything that I would, too, you know, too special at the time, it was just my fraternity brother.

Green thank No, sense. No, no, it just, it gives a sense of, you know, what your collegiate life was like, and some of the other athletes that were around you. Allison, I turned to you before we go to the open and amateur tennis world and what your thoughts are on on that transition?

Thank you so much, John. I mean, first of all, we have some amazing athletes in the audience. So if people hear Larry's story, they have questions or want to ask, please just raise your hand, we'd love to call you up onto the stage. And we help this gonna be a big audience discussion. Larry, thank you so much for your openness and the number of sports you participated in. I wanted to go back to some of John's first questions where you described realizing as a young child that you have these incredible abilities and surprising adults around you. Could you say a little bit more your sense in a world before trainers where that came from? I mean, were you from a athletic family? Did you have role models? Or was it just sort of that you had some special set of genes and could could really hit balls out of the court?

Well, I I would like to say, but I can't, that I had any peculiar knowledge about this, or any special reason why it might happen. I I don't think that it's any different than Barbra Streisand's voice. I mean, you know, I was just gifted with the ability to, to do anything athletic, that was required, I was offered a baseball scholarship to Michigan, I ran the 100 in the Long Island track meet and I got to the finals last 10 in it, and these are, I was, you know, 17 at the time, these are things that are all happening, you know, as being and my father was a good athlete, he played basketball at St. John's. And, but, I mean, it just came out of left field. And I was complimented on my athletic ability by the other tennis players. I think that you know, in tennis, if you, you don't necessarily have to be a terrific athlete, if you are big and you're strong and you have solid, solid strokes, you don't have to run really fast. I mean, if you pummel the ball, the ball comes back less hard, and you can then hit it again. So I just had a blessing that came out of nowhere, and I am thankful for it and to this day, I am out there competing in my own little world in the paddle tennis world with these, these kids that are you know, 2530 3540 playing doubles only but still holding my own with the very best that that existed in the United States and paddle tennis so I can't take any I can't give you a special reason. I just it was just purely pure luck. Just there.

Alison, do you have another question before I ask about the immature, open? Era?

Yeah. Well, I had one more question going back to John Wooden, because, you know, he's such a famous coach, and he sort of described as a coach of coaches. And I love your description, Larry of, you know, going into his condo how he mentored so many young people. What do you think was the combination that led him to be such an amazing coach? Was it actual advice he gave you? Was it his discipline? Was it mentoring? Was it that mix? I mean, and do you view him as one of the best coaches we've ever had?

Well, I don't think there's any doubt that he is, if not the best coach, certainly one of the best coaches. And it's, it's, it's a talent, it's an art, it's a combination of complex things all together, for example, he was unbelievably competitive. Now, I'm sure there are lots of athletes that are unbelievably competitive. But he understood the dynamic the geometry of the basketball court, for example, he developed the trap. Which, if you're got five good athletes on the team, and you get two or three of them to trap one guy, and, and he developed, he, he made sure that we were in the very best condition that any athletes could be. And he was very competitive, very analytical, he saw and corrected things all the time. That might be simple. I mean, it doesn't take much, you know, every every athlete has its own strengths and has his own strengths and weaknesses. So the art of being a great coach is looking at a particular athlete has a set of strengths and weaknesses. And identifying one or two things to change, to make them better. So if you can take a really good basketball player, and you can change one or two things to make him 15 or 20%, better, and you do that with everybody on the team. Wow. Look at what you have. So he had this ability to do that. And to bring it all together. The suburb, superbly conditioned athletes. And you know, I don't know it's, it's certainly it's like a it's like a magic. I don't know how else to explain it.

So, you're playing tennis, you won the NCAA as a sophomore? I know you're driving a motorcycle around. I don't know if that would be allowed today for top athletes. What was it like graduating and thinking of your career? Did you consider going pro? Did you go pro? And I know you you said you played doubles with our thrash during this period. What was the open era vers amateur era? Like and, you know, what were some of the challenges of, of that transitional period? And, and just what was that time like?

Okay, well, first of all, Open Tennis came into being in 1968. So I graduated my undergraduate at UCLA in 1962. And I went to law school and I graduated in 1965. But I was playing throughout all of that period. And amateur tennis was the way you supported yourself in amateur tennis is getting paid under the table. So you would go to these tournaments, and you would get an envelope with cash. And if you were really good, you might get $500 a week. I when I played Wimbledon, I got 50 pounds for playing Wimbledon, and the pound was to 42 the two to $2.40 to one pound. So that's what I got for playing Wimbledon. But for the rest of the tournament. You get a little envelope with some cash and you get room and board You travel from place to place to place most of the places that you played were country clubs. And the country clubs were the places where the wealthy people could afford to have grass tennis courts and clay tennis courts and clubhouses and golf courses and and all of that. And if you wanted to make tennis a career and make money as a tennis player in order to be a touring professional tennis player, you had to be the number one amateur tennis player in the world. At that time, it was Rod Laver. So, the number one tennis player in the world was invited the amateur by Jack Kramer to join the jack Kramer tour and play against poncho Gonzalez or poncho Sikora, or the like they had maybe three four or five guys Lew Hoad, Kenny rose wall. And you would come and join those guys. If you were Rod Laver, and you were paid maybe $100,000 for the year, and you were committed exclusively to Kramer. And he would tour and play in gymnasiums and all kinds of venues around the United States. And you would play 100 matches a year in those types of venues against poncho. Gonzalez, same time. And so let's say there were four or five top professionals on the Kramer circuit, and the rest of the tennis world was the amateur tennis world, under the table so people can eat and so forth. And all around the world. So that in and what you had was four major tournaments, Wimbledon, the US, Australian and the French. And those tournaments had no money for prize money. But after all, these guys are playing full time. So how are they how are they living? Well, it was all you know, under the table, and it became apparent that they started talking about well, we've got to have prize money. And it was apparent that sooner or later that had to occur. And that process took from the time I graduated undergraduate at UCLA in 1962. It took six years, until 1968, when the first US Open Championship was held. In the meantime. They had, quote, appearance money that started to to occur when you know when it became apparent that the tennis was becoming popular. And they didn't have prize money, they would have to pay more cash to get people to come to play in the tournament. And eventually that whole system blew up. And there was the beginning of Open Tennis which was a scramble. It was a scrambled between Jack Kramer and his group. It was a scramble with the four major tennis tournaments around the world. And there were there were two other mini circuits if you will. One was Jimmy Connors and Bill Reardon.

They held a half a dozen tournaments and the other was Lamar Hunt. And his group which were called the handsome eight, where the the top eight amateurs signed contracts with Lamar Hunt and played in the World Championship tennis circuit. So we had three or four of these circuits that were cross pollinating and, and so forth. And then you had the Davis Cup, which was an international competition, which was controlled by the tennis Association's and it was very very confusing because even after Open Tennis for a while, you could not play a Davis Cup if you were quote Pro. So for example, Arthur Arthur Ashe won the first US Open Championship in 1968. And he declined to take the prize money I think the winner got $8,000 and some very wealthy person gave a gift to Arthur have $1,000 worth of GM stock to make sure that he got what his deal was, but Arthur refused to turn pro at that stage because he wanted to play Davis Cup. And Davis Cup wasn't you couldn't be On the Davis Cup team, if you were quote Pro, so of course, all of that eventually got ironed out. And I was fortunate enough to be a lawyer for Arthur, he was contemplating turning pro. And I also represented Tom ocher. And he was the guy that Arthur beat in the finals of the first US Open. So I, Arthur and I, and ocher. And I negotiated with Lamar Hunt Group and others. There were other people, very wealthy people that came to us and said, Look, we I want to pay you X dollars, and I want to be your patron. And I want to, you know, they wanted to manipulate art into being their person, and make money out of it in some fashion or another. And Arthur and I went through the process of trying to figure out what was the best thing for him to do. And I had the opportunity to be involved as a lawyer, in the opening of tennis, into Open Tennis presented other of the tennis players for a short period of time, until it became apparent that to do this properly, you had to travel around the world with these guys. And you had to negotiate faced with the tournament's about how much money they were going to get, etc, etc, etc. And I didn't have the, the will to do that. I didn't want to travel. I didn't want to be a vagabond like that. I was already a lawyer for three years. And I decided that I couldn't do that. So I sort of backed away from representing Arthur. And that's a whole story of its own.

So just on on Arthur at this period, I know a few years later, he went and played in South Africa. And he was he was proud to play there and represent. How do you think he felt about this transition between amateur and open? Sounds like he had to struggle about, you know, not taking money, so he could represent on the Davis Cup, and he was really proud of being part of Team USA, and that there's these different factions the Jimmy Connors group, the the eight connected with hunt, like how did he handle it? And as his lawyer, you probably, you know, we're coaching him through some of that, or being a sparring partner to kind of help navigate and how did his leadership as someone who won the US Open, help create what ultimately was created

was gingerly watching the development of Open Tennis, and the pieces were moving all over the board all of the time. There were power struggles going on, between the associations, the tennis associations in the various countries, and the players, and Lamar Han, and Jack Kramer, and Bill Reardon. And the tournament's that we're offering, you know, in addition to prize money, they were offering appearance, you know, fees. And so the question was, how should Arthur handle all of this, so he decided, he did not want to sign a pro contract. But Tom Ocker did. So I ended up signing ocher with Lamar Han, and we did not sign up with anybody with Arthur decided to remain an amateur. And it took a couple of years, I don't remember the details for the world to sort of settle down at least, so that you didn't lose your you could play Davis Cup as a pro, and no longer were penalized for doing for doing that. And he liked to keep his options open. So his ultimate decision was to make a commitment to nobody. And to just see how things developed. And of course, you know, part of that was his unbelievable contribution to bringing down apartheid in South Africa. And that whole story, I'm sure people, some people know about it, if you want to talk about it, we can, but he went there and he he only had one condition, and that was that they integrate the stands. And they agreed to do that. So he went to South Africa and he to discuss it until he got back. He went to South Africa, the integrated the stands. He told me that in black people followed him everywhere because they had not seen a free black man. And he said he didn't want to talk about South Africa until he had a chance to see it with his own eyes and make his own assessment as to what he thought about it. So does that answer your question?

No, that does. And, you know, we have a lot to talk about in the show. We're not even halfway begun. We got Sylvester Stallone, we got the Supreme Court, we got that plane flayed, to Bolivia, where you crashed. There's a lot lot to talk about. I want to ask another question about Arthur Ashe. You know, today. There's black lives matter. And Colin Kaepernick and his his leadership? You know, we lost Arthur in 93. You know, too young? I'm curious, you know, you you you roomed with him, you played with him as a doubles partner, you were collegiate classmate, how do you think he would react to how things have sort of unfolded in in where we are in race relations?

Well, let me answer it this way. I do not think there was any limit to what Arthur could have accomplished, politically. I think that he could have been the law, Barak Obama, or like Barack Obama, and he was very slow. In developing his political sense of what he thought was the way he could provide the most assistance to the black community, there was a time that Jesse Jackson B rated him because Arthur would not be more vocal and outspoken about the issues. And Arthur told him that that wasn't his way. And he was going to do it in his own way, in his own pace. And so what what happened with Arthur is he developed his sense of public knowledge and effect gradually over the period of time, and, and he and I discussed it somewhat over the years. But I think he would have been unbelievably important had he survived longer in bridging the gap between the peoples and making the United States a more homogeneous place for everyone. If he had survived. I, you know, I, I mean, he was he was capable of anything. And he had this potential, and it was becoming more and more apparent that he was special in that regard. I

did ever talk to you about running for office. And I know he had the heart surgery and the brain surgery and now he was cut short.

Yeah, he was he never, he never got to that, to that point. He wanted to have the best effect that he could have. And, and so he, I mean, he went on, he went on marches in Washington, DC went to South Africa, he became more and more a call it political. And he would have gone much, much further. I think he could have been a an important national political figure, but he never had the opportunity to do that. I think it was 40 or so. When he passed away, or maybe I 93 Let's see. He was maybe 45.

Yep. Allison, I have a bunch of other questions. But let me turn to you. Anything you want to ask Larry before we get to Sylvester Stallone and, and oblivion plane crash

I think let's go there. And also, we have some great questions on stage. Great.

So, Larry, maybe tell us a little bit about your legal career? And how did sports influence it? Like, did you do much in with athletes? Or did the training and the discipline from sports like help you in the courtroom or in preparation? What kind of lawyer have you become? And what are some of the adventures you've had as a lawyer?

Well, I think that the essence of it was that I'm extremely competitive. And so I gravitated towards business litigation. And I was kind of like a wind up, toy, you wind me up, you point me in the direction. And I go, and I was blessed by the fact that I had been trained to be competitive. So for me, the law is full of twists and turns. And, and the single most important characteristic that I think a good lawyer should have is to be flexible. If you're not flexible, if you're brittle, you will break. And that I think, comes from competitive athletics. Because every time you walk on the tennis court, every time you're involved in a basketball game, it's a puzzle. The other person is trying to figure out what to do to get the better of you on the tennis court, for example. And people are constantly changing their strategy through the course of a match. If this, you know, everybody can play when they're feeling great, and everything's flowing. But the real players are the ones that can produce something important when they're not playing well, when they're confronted with something they aren't expecting. And they are able to adapt on the spur of the moment to deal with it. And I think that, the commonality of that in athletics and in, in business litigation, held me in good stead. And I, as as a litigator, I was blessed with the fact that, you know, I, my clients, were oftentimes very, very wealthy, successful people who had very successful businesses, but they were confronted with a legal problem that they could not solve. So they had to turn to somebody, in some cases, they, I was fortunate enough that they turned to me. And in order for me to understand the case, I had my legal training. But the real essence of it was that it was a business dispute about a particular type of thing or a particular type of Indian industry. For example, one of my clients was in the clothing business, and they bought a big computer system from Microsoft. And it completely didn't work. And as a result of it not working appropriately, the business got damaged, and lots of bad things happen. So I had to, and I had to understand why this affected the sale of T shirts, or why it affected the sale of other. So I was being paid to get an education about the clothing business, so that I could understand the essence of what the problem was. And I could then apply some legal knowledge to figure out a way to handle it in the best way possible. And so I had a very broad based business litigation career, I tried many cases. I tried cases before the jury, many juries, I was fortunate to to get some big judgments and some for punitive damages, and I enjoyed the business but the law was very consuming. And I was not able to compartmentalize myself so that I could dive into this type of business and then oh, now I'm a father and now I'm a husband and now I'm you know, something else. So I know that my competitiveness was both a strength and a weakness. It was good for my clients. but not necessarily good for me. And I know I missed a lot of life because I had my nose to the grindstone. And, you know, next thing I knew I looked up, I was older, I had spent all these years fighting with, you know, people over money. And to be honest, on reflection, I really wonder whether that was such a wise way to spend so much of the essence of my life.

Wow, that's, um, you know, that. It's a lot there. And I'm sure your clients benefited from your hard work. But I think, you know, at different vantage points, we look back and wonder how we spend our time. You tell us a little bit about your Sylvester Stallone work. And I don't know, if there's a breach of client stuff there. And in the Supreme Court,

I wouldn't tell you anything that isn't, you know, public knowledge about Stallone, but I was fortunate enough to be asked to represent him and we had a major lawsuit against his business manager who defrauded him. And we ended up settling the matter. And, and we've, what happened was that our opposition was represented by a lawyer who used Anthony Pelicano as a part of his support system. And this lawyer, the rumor was, had never lost the case. Well, I know that that's not true, because I know what he paid us. But after the case was over, it became known in the public domain that Anthony Pelicano had wiretap the lawyers or the client, the the opposing clients for his clients. So it turned out that Pelicano had wiretapped my conversations with Stallone. And the FBI somehow got into Pelecanos safe. And they found recordings of these conversations. And actually, what happened was they found recordings of the conversations between Pelicano and the opposition. Not the lawyer, but the but but the opposing party. And the FBI called me up and said, Listen, we believe that Pelicano wiretapped your conversations with the loan, and we'd like to talk to you about that. And if you think that this is, so we'd like you to be a witness in the case of United States versus Pelicano. So to make a long story short, they, you know, they played some some conversations, and they asked me some questions. And it was clear that the only way that Pelicano could have known the things that he was telling his client was if he had overheard me, tell them to sit alone. So I was a major witness in USA versus Pelicano, Pelicano went to prison. There was a follow on case, I was a witness. In that case, it was USA versus somebody else. I was called to the stand. I told all the things I'm telling you to the jury. And they played these conversations and they stopped and they would ask me questions. That is the FBI would the US attorney would play these conversations that the FBI had had, and they would stop the conversation, and then they would say, Mr. Nagler? Did you ever discuss XY and Z? You know, with anybody other than Mr. Stallone? And I would say no, I hadn't or something to that nature. So that was a rather amazing thing. I just didn't believe in my wildest imagination that it was possible that my conversations were wiretap. But it turned out that they were and and so that's the story about Pell camo and Stallone.

So Larry, I want to ask one last question, then I'm going to go to the audience. Motorcycles. I know you sold some motorcycles to Arthur Ashe, I know you you drove motorcycles. Is there any interesting story there? And what's your fascination with motorcycles?

Well, I mean, the truth be told is that I drove motorcycles, because my doubles partner, Alan Fox, drove a motorcycle. And he said, You got to get a motorcycle. And so when I went to law school, rather than having to park and this and that, I got a motorcycle. So I had a motorcycle, to get from where I live to go to law school, in years, one, two, and three. And after year one, you know, I would go to the tennis courts and I would play or somehow rather, Arthur said he wanted to buy the, you know, buy one. And the one I had the first one I had had these big saddlebags, so that you could put books and, you know, anything in there short of a tennis racket, and an art love that. And so I sold him my Honda dream. And he loved that one. And then when the year was up, and he went back to play in the tournament, and the tournament on the tournament circuit, and I did too, he would sell it to somebody else, and I would get it for a year or two, I get another motorcycle this time, I wanted a faster motorcycle. So I got a faster motorcycle, and, you know, art loved it, and he wanted to buy it. So I sold it to him. And I would say that it was not a smart thing to drive a motorcycle, I myself have been down three times on a motorcycle. And I'm sure that today that would be not allowed by the handlers of Wolfie athletes. And I managed to survive it. But you know, my son in law had, had had a big triumph. And he let me he let me write it, maybe, let's say 10 years ago, and I have a photo of it. I could barely, I could barely, you know, get around the block. And then I came back. The thing was so heavy. You know, if it tilts slightly, and it weighs 1000 pounds, I mean, it's gonna go down. So I mean, I was happy to give it back to him and get rid of. That's my story with motorcycles. And with Arthur

green. Great, thank you. So let's go to the audience. keel, do you have a question? And then we'll go to Dr. And then Dr. Rao. And then Larry, if you could just maybe take a pencil and paper and write down these three questions, we often stack questions, and then you could decide how you want to answer them, whether in one answer or one at a time or in a different order. And you could also pass on a question, if you if you want to. But kill Do you have a question you'd like to ask Larry?

Yeah, thank you, John, Larry, really enjoying your talk, you know, I play tennis myself. And I'd like to get your view, I hit with a one racket, believe it or not. And I'd like to get your view on the both the racquet head size and these new LuxLock Luxilon strings, which I think have really kind of altered the game, not necessarily in 100% good way I miss some of the variations and styles of play, like the serve and volley. And even if you don't bring back what I'd like to see them, I don't probably won't happen, but just sort of regulate the head size and the strings. So your view on that. And second, I'm glad you brought up the open era of tennis because I think college sports is kind of entering its own open era with the NFL and the you know, paying players. So I would like to I think it never really made sense to fuse sports so directly to schools. And I think that the elusive affiliation is fine, but your time together and not paying the players didn't make sense. So just getting your views if we should go not just name image and likeness, but go the whole way and then start paying the players as professionals nicely. Yeah,

he'll Excellent question. So Larry will get the two others, but thank you for that. Dr. Connor Hogan. What's your question?

Hey, John, thank you so much. Yeah, I just want to echo what was just said every kill. It's an excellent interview really, really enjoyable. So mine is a kind of a general question. If I may, Larry, you mentioned with regard to kind of, you know, you're just fraternity bodies. And at the same time, you also mentioned that people like Claire's nowadays are you know, bigger. stronger, faster as they are and all, for example, in team sports. It's more combative, obviously, than tennis. But what's what crossed my mind at the time was I don't know if you've seen it, but there was a great documentary about Mary fish, and about his mental health issues. And just wondering, with the changes in the game physically, and the training and so on over the decades, and even with regard to kind of the changes there, and perhaps how people saw, you know, athletes at that stage, in comparison, perhaps to celebrity status nowadays, influencers and so on. Do you think that there's like, what do you think of the whole changes with regard to kind of help people think and the mentality of players and

what was that? Wait, how people think and what was that?

Yeah, just the mentality of kind of like, players, how they perceive pressure and so on.

Yeah. Great. Thank you, Doctor Hogan. And then, always great to see you, Dr. Rao. Welcome to the show again, what question would you like to ask?

Thank you, John. I was wondering whether Larry knows about the story, a story that I often use it to my patients, and also for myself, when I was sick, there was a question asker of the rash when he was diagnosed with HIV. And they all asked how he felt. He said, When I became a champion out of 50,000, I thought that was a gift from God. And this is also why should I complain now? And the way he took it was very positive and very heroic. What was that story to motivate my patients? I'm

fully here, you said something about 50,000. And then,

yeah, Dr. Rao, you you broke up at the end, maybe we should restate the last question.

50,000 of them competed for the US Open. I became the champion. I did not complain. And I was given a gift. But now I have this HIV virus. Why should I complain? Someday? Yes, yes. Yes. Yes.

Great. So Larry, those are three questions, we'll probably have some more, but feel free to answer them in any which way you want. But good questions, and I'm sure you have good answers.

All try. I, I am fascinated by by the questions by the firt the first group of questions. And the the fellow that mentioned that he plays still with a wooden racket and and and what's happened to the game? And I will answer it this way by saying that I do not think that the game of tennis, as it exists today is in the same universe as the game of tennis that existed at the time I was playing for many reasons. Among which are the reasons that you mentioned. For example, if you compare the rackets,

you mentioned the head size. The the rackets have gone from a relatively small wooden frame. Or more unique and interesting and ever bigger, they have head size that's huge. They have the thickness of the frame, if you look at

they have the length of the rack. They are even rackets out there. There's one I think it's called the big bulb up, I used it one time, I couldn't control the ball, it was insane. And I think that the length of the racket is about four inches longer than the others not only is the length longer, but the head size is about 50% bigger than the biggest racket that I've ever played with. And so you have all these changes in the equipment. Then you have the strings, which now are scientifically created to have like little sand particles in there to a brace of particles so that they in effect, grip the tennis ball and allow you to impart spin to the ball in a way that could not be done in the old days. And you have the fact that you've gone from a one handed backhand with a small wooden racket to a two handed backhand with a huge frame, so it's impossible to miss Hit the ball. And you can hit it with topspin. for it, for example. Everybody knows that John McEnroe was a marvelous tennis player and the best in the world for a period of time. But the fact of the matter is that his game would not stand up very well today. He would serve that Sidewinder left handed serve into your backhand corner with a wooden racket. And it was almost impossible to hit a backhand that was screaming away from you to the left side, bringing you off the court to hit it with such force and control to, in effect hurt him as he was coming into net to hit away the volley. But today, players would simply stand in the backend corner, hit the ball with two hands with a tremendous force and with those Luxilon strings and hit that huge topspin. And the next thing, you know, is that McEnroe wouldn't have these high volleys to put away and his groundstrokes were, you know, like two generations, three generations away, that he had no topspin, basically on his backhand whatsoever. You know, he just flick it, his forehead was a flick, and it had no you know, had no pace. So so there's been so many changes in the game, that it's not the same game, when I was playing, if I came into net, and I would serve it into the guy's backhand, and he had a small wooden racket to hit, there were matches that I would go, I wouldn't get past one time, at a high, high level match in the course of a match. And today, you get past like five times in one game. And then, you know, today, they sometimes have a particular point that will they will each hit the ball a total of 30 times, well, that would never happen. In the old days, you couldn't control the ball. So that the long winded answer really tells you that you have a totally different sport, not to mention the fact that today, many of the tennis players are 646566696 10 611, and seven feet tall. So for me, it's a complete bore to watch. You know, these these big the seven footers serve winners. And basically, you know, the other guy can't even control the ball back that I would like to see the game, take some steps to make strategy and control and technique more important. And I think that I get bored watching, I would rather watch some of the women play any day, particularly the new young, beautiful champions that were in the finals of the US Open, then watch these guys hit two handed backhand, you know, 15 times this way and that way. I mean, so, you know, there's that. And then as far as paying the players are concerned, I wasn't exactly sure what that question was. But if you're talking about athletes in college, you know, if you're in university or in a college, and you're playing a sport, basically, your tuition is taken care of. You might get room and board, I mean, but you have no expenses, your books are taken care of.

And, you know, I'm not against at all the fact that some of these college athletes can make money to some degree with the new rules. I think it's a great thing. And I think it's evolving. I don't know where it's going to end. But it's hard for me to see how you can say you can't pay these athletes if they you know if they deserve to be paid even while they're in college. So that's the first series of questions. Well, Marty fish mental health pressure. I mean, tennis is full of intense pressure. It is one person against the other in Mortal Kombat. And if you watch these guys play these matches, you don't see a single smile. If you see a smile. It's so unusual that you remember oh my god. Federer smiled. But you can't smile. If you're in total attention is focused on basically destroying the guy on the other side of the net. Now, some people cannot handle that pressure, and they collapse and Marty fish is one of those and so is no, Naomi Osaka. And there are many examples of people that suffer tremendous psychological difficulties trying to play tennis and survive. I mean, it's a brutal game. And if you lose, you have nobody to blame but yourself. It takes an unbelievable strength of character to be able to survive that it get your head beaten in. I mean, I got my head beaten in by Rod Laver when sets. But I mean, if I didn't have the ability to be resilient. I. And that's why I decided that, you know, I didn't think that trying to become a tennis pro was for was he? So then we talked about Amen, which is something that struck me as tremendously touching that, that this doctor, his name was RO, whatever his name was, had related. And that was, you know, Arthur did say, when he got aids when he contracted AIDS. And everything, Arthur, you know, Oh, it's terrible. It's terrible. You know, he said, No, he said, You know, I have accomplished so much in a, I took all of the good, you know, it's okay. I'm okay with it. He didn't reveal himself, the fee. And that was part of his resiliency. Which I think is so important to be successful in anything. And that's my best

to green. So let's Cassidy and crispy. Let me just see, Lakers Nation. Let's get to questions from you guys. Cassidy, do you have a question?

I do. And thank you so much, John, and Allison for having facilitating this room. Larry, it's a pleasure to make your acquaintance. You briefly just kind of talked about the immense pressure that an athlete in general might go you know, face. So my question pertains to pressure and our senses when it comes to pressure, which sense do you rely on most? Is it a remote sense, such as sight smell, or hearing, or more of a tactile sense, such as taste or touch? That is my question.

Yeah, great question. Let's get crispy Laker nation. Also, let's get their question out. And then Larry, you can take the two guys, David McKnight. Yep, yep. Thanks

for having me, guys. Nice to meet you, Larry, uh, John Allison. Later, I just want to know what inspired you to take that journey into the, you know, as into the tennis field, someone that was was an inspiration.

Okay. Um, so as far as the first question is concerned, I don't believe it is wise for somebody under pressure to try to distinguish between which senses trigger what because it's so complicated. That it's like a gestalt. I mean, you you if you're out on the tennis court, and you managed to get a break point. And you have to win that point in order to break serve in order to win the set. The most important thing, if you can do it, is to sense nothing. And to let your body do what it's been trained to do in that instance, and the minute that you start to try to Ecuador anticipate how you're going to do it is the time that you cannot do it. And I think that there are moments when you are at peace when you're under pressure, and it's not just related to tennis, in my opinion, that you relax in a certain way they are not able to do when you're feeling the tension. In other words, it's an absence that you're striving to reach. And you can only reach that when you're at peace and receptive to everything that's happening around you. So I would have to the My answer is that all of your senses are brought to bear at that critical moment. And I can't answer it any better any differently than that. As far as my inspiration into tennis is concerned. I thought that, given my physical size, and my abilities, that tennis was a was a beautiful sport. For me, I didn't think basketball was my future. I didn't think baseball was my future, although I probably could have been pretty good at baseball. But tennis was just me. And I was, I was relying just on myself, and I didn't have to have or con. I liked the fact that it was all on me. And I took to it and loved it. And couldn't wait to be out on the court again. And all I know is that I improved rapidly. And the improvement fed into the desire to play it more and more and more. And, you know, the next thing so, so important in my life, and it happened fairly quickly. Oh, how how to go about describing it any differently.

Great. Thank you, Larry. So we're 90 minutes in we have another half hour for imagination action. This is where we have Imaginators share how they use, how they use their imagination to make action have impact on the world. And we're talking with Larry Nagler, who was a very accomplished athlete play tennis at UCLA as a sophomore when the NC double A's played also was a walk on for John wooden's basketball team. It was just one or two years away from wooden playing, winning 10 NCAA championships leading the Bruins. And Larry became friends with with that, that coach years after he graduated. And while Larry was at UCLA, a freshman joined the team named Arthur Ashe, and he got to know him. And the two of them played doubles in that transition period, as the open era was kind of getting up and going. And Larry's had a very interesting life. And we're talking about that. Just a heads up. In the next few weeks we have some great shows are Leonard Kleinrock, the gentlemen who sent the first email over the ARPANET, one of the architects of the internet, about 50 years ago, is gonna be coming on talking about what he created. He's also a UCLA guy. Next week, we have a great show, an author of a book, the Dorito effect, and steak, and his new book is on craving and why we crave food, really accomplished author on food, associated with Yale lives in Canada excited to have him on on and in prepping for that show. Next week, I was talking to him about his teenage kids. And he was just talking about how hard the pandemic is mentally for kids. And that should be a great show. We also have a show on growing organs. February one, Mass General, Doctor we also today I talked to two folks, one in New York and one in Austin, we're going to do shows on people who help startups and these are two people who've helped a bunch of unicorns, and they're going to give their advice on how to do startups. And we have another show with a number of heads of zoos, talking about the future of zoos. So you're listening to imagination, action. And thank you and we're gonna continue this conversation. Allison, let me turn to you. You know, we're I think people are getting a sense of Larry and his life experience. At some point I want to ask him about as a octogenarian, you know, you know, how did all the sports take its toll on his body? And what's he doing now and haven't talked about panel tennis. But do you have any questions? Before we get to that?

Well, I do. Larry, I want to thank you. First of all, this is such a rich session, as I'm sure you're sensing from people's questions. But I wanted to follow up on your honesty several minutes ago, when you're talking about being a lawyer, and how hard to compete, and maybe the trade offs when you get too competitive, and you put everything you have into something. And I feel like you've been in so many different courts, tennis courts, basketball courts, court rooms. I mean, how do you think we should all think about that, you know, I think this may sound like a strange thing to say to you. But John and I are kind of at the age or maybe I shouldn't put down into this. I'm at the age where you look out and you realize, if you didn't try hard enough, in your youth, you don't have a chance to be a top, you know, Olympian or a player in a lot of ways. But then those people who do it's so all consuming, and I think you suggested it crowds out family and other things. So as you look back, what what is your wisdom about, you know, how much we should invest? And given that to excel today is to invest 100%? What is what's your thought, as you look back on all the different courts you've been on?

Well, that's a really important topic. And, you know, I have been asking myself recently, how it was that I was willing to, in effect, dedicate the critical moments of my life, the critical time of my life, to fighting legal battles, to such a degree, that it crowded out a lot of other things. And I can only say that, in this era with the pandemic, becomes very, very clear to me that.

Too often. People are motivated, and are less valuable to really have to pay attention to your time. I mean, if you go down a road, and you come to a juncture, and you're asking yourself, do I want to go this way or that way? If you take a particular route, inertia indicates that you're going to be on that route for years. Look, you look up and 10 years have passed and say, Oh, my God, I've been doing this for 10 years, really. So you have to be monitoring yourself at all times and saying, is this the way I want to spend these important years of my life. And I understand that there are financial pressures that are on everybody, for example, you want to have your children get the best education that they can get. And oftentimes, that's going to be very, very costly. And therefore you have to do such and such in order to make money. But I really don't know that that is, you know, the best way to go. And all I can say is that every single person needs to keep asking, Is this the way I want to spend my life? Is this the way I want to spend my essence? Do I want to spend more time with my wife? Do I want to spend more time with my children? Do I want to spend more time on the tennis court for fun? You know, do I want to give up everything for this? I mean, I know for example, young lawyers. Their goal is to get a job at a big law firm and to be paid $150,000 a year. But to me, that is a complete waste. They don't look up for 10 or 15 years and they've lost 10 or 15 years. Oh, yes, they're going to be a partner. And they're going to have a bunch of money. But those 15 years have most of the time They're miserable. And really in truth, it have been unhealthy for them. And I know that they think that this is the way it should be. And this is what they thought they always wanted. But you have to keep asking yourself, Is this really what is best for me. And I can only say this, that you have to make a trade off, you may not make as much money. But if you're doing something that you love to do, and you know, my, I have four kids, so I was, you know, with one of my daughters today and anyhow, and I'm constantly she's got an MBA, real estate broker, she's raising two children, she's managing some apartment buildings, she's managing some other investments. She's Superwoman, but I keep telling her, you know, spend this time with your husband, as much as you can spend this time with your children eat to make as much money as you think you need to make. If if you have it, but it is something that you just have to keep asking yourself the way I want, you know, when I when I get older, am I going to be happy that I spent 50 years, you know, fighting other people's battles for them for money. And I think I made a lot of mistakes. And I you know, I don't like to face the fact that I, I've lost a lot of time, but I'm trying to be very attentive these days to what's important. The best of my

this is this is such a such a thoughtful advice. I'm curious, you know, I think of, of reading about how Andrew Agassi was in a crib, with paddles, I think taped to his hand, being exposed to tennis, you have a generation of parents that I mean, you chose tennis, your parents didn't say, you know, you're going to go to the tennis court, and we want you to get a tennis scholarship, you chose tennis, but you have a generation. And when I was growing up, I think the Germans and Swedes and Australians were dominating tennis, and the United States was dominating tennis today, in the top 100 tennis players, they're not even that many Americans. Because for men, so whatever we're doing isn't working. But I'm just curious. There's there's there's a factory system, Nick, voluntary, it was the the factory that I knew of, you know, what do you have to say about that, especially as someone who is thinking about how much time you spent in the in the courtroom? You know, you know, what's it all worth? I mean, this feels like a movie where, you know, you're going to go back in time and talk to your earlier self. But I'm wondering, you know, that this isn't hundreds of parents. This is 1000s and 10s. Of 1000s. I mean, King Richard, you know, that worked out the movie that just came out. But, you know, the know, the I think you and I, in our in our call earlier yesterday, was talking about a graveyard of of people that aren't making it. Do you have any advice that you go on the record here?

Well, yeah, I mean, look, there's no doubt that in order to develop an Andre Agassi, who was the number one tennis player in the world, things had to be done, or commitments had to be made that were obscene. And the problem that we have is there's only one of those yet, there are 1000s of families that are committing to that, not necessarily just in tennis, but in in all the sports. And if you look at it, statistically, the chances of success of that level is very, very small. And the chances of damage are very, very great. Because as I said to you yesterday, it's a graveyard of people I know many, many, many men who wanted to make tennis more than it could be that ultimately, they had nothing at the end of the day other than they had to be a tennis pro. In order in order to survive. They gave everything up for tennis. And so my my thought is that it's a mistake, and that I would rather give up the possibility of being number one in the world for a more rational approach. approach to doing it. So that it can be enjoyable, fun and valuable to you. So that you can take what you learn and use it in other ways rather than making this insane commitment to the world. And I think is a mistake for 99% of the people that do this. And there are big prices that are paid in many, many ways for those families and the children that are the subject of all of that I would call abuse. I just think you're better off trying to, you know, play more sports less well. And get from it that which you can, which will help you be a better person and, and be more effective as a human being. So that's my thought on it. I tried to raise my kids, by the way,

great. Yeah, I am curious, what kind of a helicopter athlete, a coach parent, you were with your kids. But let me just frame how the rest of the show will go. Allison always does a summary of the show. And some people just wait around to hear what she has to say. So we're looking forward to that. Thank you. As always, Alison, I do want to have you comment on your plane crash in Bolivia, and paddle tennis. And I'm interested if you've ever had a conversation with John McEnroe. And and how did that go? And, and Cassidy and and Anthony net McKnight? Do you guys have a keel? A second question? Or should we go to the plane crash and the paddle tennis?

i This is Cassidy I had a second question that I'd love to hear your answer here. You opine on Larry, as a professional athlete, former. And the breadth of knowledge that you have about the athletic space? What is something that you think fans could do better or be better at to support the athletes?

Well, I don't even know that I

can say Just bear. Larry, before you answer that crispy Lake Nation, Lakers Nation, or Anthony, better known as Anthony McKnight. Do you have another question?

Yeah, I just want to know, Larry, you know, if you had, because I'm a strong believer of, you know, the youth and their foundation and upbringing for kids myself, what's the one piece of advice that you would give an upcoming tennis player, you know, to follow your dreams and stuff like that? What's one piece of advice that you would give a youth?

Well I That's, uh, you know, that, that's, that's hard, because you know, each kid is different, and has its own set of, of strengths and weaknesses. But I was trying to say earlier that, you know, to me, for the average person, the thing to do is to go out and to, you know, get into it as much as you can, but not commit your entire life to the project. So that you can take it with a grain of salt, so to speak. And that's, you know, that that's the best way to get through this and to be the most effective and in in the process. Oftentimes, if you take pressure off yourself, you perform better. And so if you can come to the state of mind that this is not the be all end all of my life. I think it makes you more effective as a tennis player and as a as a person.

i Let's see, that you want to? Did I answer the question as best as the best I can do on it?

Oh, yes, sir. is perfectly fine. Thank you.

Okay. Do you want me to mention, you know, I mean, the plane crash, of course is, look, I was 34. And my doubles partner at UCLA, Alan Fox was a pilot of small planes. And my, my friend, George, the three of us rented a brand new going to South America, and we would fly 500 miles to this and we went down through Central America into South America and we got down to Rio. And we were coming back and we were in Bolivia. And we were heading for Machu Picchu. And we had had a couple of occasions where we made some very stupid decisions and nearly bought the farm. And we were, I was a lawyer. Alan was a PA, he had a PhD in psychology. And George was a MBA from Harvard Business School. So you would have thought that there was some modicum of intelligence amongst the three of us, but we made a lot of stupid decisions. But anyhow, we're on our way to Machu Picchu, we've left Santa Cruz, Bolivia, we're at 5000 feet. And all of a sudden, bang. And metal on metal clackety clickety clackety. Alan turns off the engine, and there's complete silence. And we're going to go down. And we are basically in the foothills of the Andes. And basically above the jungle, and it's completely silent. There is oil on the windshield, and there is some smoke in the cabin. And the smoke dissipates. And I'm on the radio saying Mayday, mayday. This is Blanca 711 Bravo, Julia, we've had an accident, we're going down, we're five miles heading from such and such from the airport, please come get us. And we, I spoke to the tower. And Alan said, Oh, my God, you know we're floating down. And, of course, you're not going down like a stone because you have the wings, and he's looking for a place to land. And he's maybe we can make that clearing over there and he starts to go in that direction. He said, we're not going to make it he says I'm going to have to land in the riverbed. So he heads into the wind above the trees, and I'm talking about fit fig trees. And at the very last minute, I remember it clearly. He turns it to the right just above the top of the trees and sets it down in the riverbed with the wheels down. And we go clackety clickety clanky. And all of a sudden, boom, and we come to a dead stop. And we realize that it's over. We're down, and we're alive. So we jumped out of the plane. And we're screaming, we're alive, we're alive, we're alive. We look at the fuselage and there is a tree trunk or bed that came out at an angle. And it went impaled. Right is right behind the head of this guy in the back seat George in the backseat, I was in the front seat in the copilot seat right through the fuselage. And I have photos of this. I mean, it was three feet away from going through George's head. Anyhow, we're there. We can't believe it. We have one bag of fruit.

We tried to hike a little bit, we knew that. We were five miles out we knew the direction of the airport. But we you know, we're hearing animal noises and sounds of the jungle and listen, and George's knee is hurt. And he we try to walk and it's clear that we're not gonna be able to hike out of there. So every 10 minutes I go back into the plane and I get on the radio but because we're down at level, we couldn't reach the tower. You know, I think the radio would not go it would only go where was clear. So after about an hour, you know, Alan starts to eat the fruit. I see. I grabbed the fruit from as they don't eat that we're gonna need that. And I keep going back and say Mayday, mayday. And all of a sudden a guy with a Texas accent a southern accent says Blanca This is helicopter whatever whatever whatever I said helicopter I can't believe you know I said we've crashed landed the engine blew up. Were you thinking come and get us he says all come and get you over the trees and lands in the riverbed swirling wind in the plane we leave her in the helicopter we leave everything you know that we had we we buy you know drinks for everybody. You know it was basically up Hold on care. And we all got soused, and, you know I've was in that accident, but three of them came after the accident. And they, they, they just sort of taken for granted that they're here, but they could other. So they know what happened. And, you know, every once in a while, I realized, Hey, I was pretty lucky to get out from under that. What else you want to know?

Wow, that's great. So So you know, we are recording this. So you could just send that clip and distributed to your friends. So they know what happened. But that was riveting. So in closing, can you tell us just, you know, what are you doing in terms of sports today? You know, you're you're no longer 50? You no longer 25? I know, you're in your eighth decade. What's it like? And you mentioned that you're playing paddle tennis. I know, there's a documentary coming out, I think on Venice Beach, about Paddle Tennis that you're you're in? And then after you answer that, we'll we'll turn to Allison to kind of do a summary. And, you know, you started the show saying, I'm not sure if I'm going to be interesting to you. You've been, you know, on a scale of one to 10 You've been 1000. So thank you.

Oh, wow. Thank you. Thank you for that. I I've enjoyed it tremendously. And I hope it's been intro anyhow. Um, yeah, I mean, pedal 10. I mean, I am blessed by the fact that I am still healthy. And I put like, five times a week, I played this morning. I sort of like the general counsel for free to all of the members of the Venice Beach paddle tennis community. I want to help in any way I can with any of, you know, their stuff. There's a real interesting group of characters at the Venice Beach paddle tennis community. And I play with all of them. And levels. My daughter, Amanda, is the one that introduced me to it, she was the first one there, I didn't even know about Paddle Tennis until she says you got to come deaf. And you know, she and I play together. We play in tournaments, they're they're fascinating people, I play very competitively, I still have my racket skills. Although the court is so small, and I, I primarily play doubles, so I only have to cover half of very small court. And because of my racket skills, I'm able to compete, if I get a good partner, I can play at any level with it with anybody. So I love it and have a great time at it, and hope to keep doing that until the end. So that's my paddle tennis. And that's, that's the end.

In, in prepping for this show, I looked up the history of tennis. You know, for those who don't know, it started in 1100s. And I think originally there was no racket kings would would play with their hands. And it was indoors and the net could be a few feet high, much higher than today. And the court when I went outside was the shape of an hourglass. But in the 1900s it looked more like what it does today. And we're talking to someone whose was one of the top players of his era and talking about his life. So thank you, Alison, I pass it to you to kind of do our do your famous summary.

Oh my gosh, well, Larry, thank you for such an incredibly rich way to start off 2022 Larry Nagler is an Imaginator with more lives than many of our impressive speakers. He's had eight decades of super rich experience and wisdom. And as a fabulous storyteller, as all of us lucky enough to be on this have have known. Larry grew up in New York with what he describes as the gift of sports and Nash natural athletic talent. And he compares that to the gift of Barbra Streisand's voice and I think that's so fascinating. He was offered a baseball scholarship when 100 in the Long Island track meet ranked number three in us and youth tennis play tennis at UCLA won the NCAA tennis champion as a sophomore played doubles with Arthur Ashe walked on as a basketball player on John wooden's team went on to be a lawyer and today As he said at the end, he competes and paddle tennis and championships and holds his own against 24 to 25 year olds, which even if you're holding down just half a cord is pretty impressive. So first of all, Larry shared with us his front row seat on how the whole game and business of tennis has completely changed in his lifetime, to become what he called a totally different sport. He said he didn't think the game of tennis today is even in the same universe as tennis when he played. And he described how the size of tennis players is now six foot four or even seven feet. I'm not quite sure which player that is, with rackets a head size 50% larger with strings that are supplemented with sand, moving from a small wooden frame to composites and with rackets that are four inches longer. Larry described the days he was coming up almost DIY sports. He said he had little or no training or coaching before UCLA, which is almost unthinkable today, when obviously players have coaches, trainers, dieticians, weightlifters, psychologists, etc. He also described playing tennis in the days before large prize money, and Larry told us he got 50 pounds for playing Wimbledon, which I think was about 250 us and many times got played under the table got paid under the table. He talked about his friendship and playing doubles with Arthur Ashe and the whole transition of tennis from an amateur to a more professional sport. Then Larry described the whole second career he had played basketball with John Wooden, who he who Larry described as arguably one of the best coaches out there, Larry described going to John's condo which he said was like a museum filled with trophies, photos, basketballs and awards. And he describes John's coaching like magic as a combination of complex talents. That included making sure his players were in the best condition that any athlete could be being very analytical understanding the geometry of a basketball court, so he developed new plays like the trap, being unbelievably competitive, and then seeing each player with their strengths and weaknesses and identifying one to two things that every single player could do to be a little bit better. Then Larry went on to describe his third career as a lawyer graduating in 1965. He became a lawyer for Arthur Ashe, Sylvester Stallone, went before many juries and judges, and he talked about how the agility he learned on tennis and basketball courts allowed him to be a top attorney in each situation. Looking at the evolving situation and puzzling out how to respond. He said the best athletes are not just good on their good days, but they know how to take their weekdays and day that they're off, and really still pull up together a great game, we had such an incredibly rich discussion. And we so appreciate Larry, your willingness to share your deep insights from all these lives. Most importantly, you share that competitiveness as a lawyer was great for your clients, but not necessarily for you or for the lawyers, that it led you to miss a lot of life as you put so much effort into each case. I think the the important reminder that you gave us in this call that every person needs to keep monitoring themselves at all times. To ask Is this the way I want to be spending these important moments of my life? Thank you so much, Larry, for inspiring us and starting our 2022 off on such a great note.

Great as always, thank you, Allison, and I want to thank Hayley Reardon, who just got back from being an artist and resident in in a town in Germany for playing some folk music at the beginning. Next week, we're gonna be talking about food. We had a show with Mark Bittman. That was excellent. And this is sort of an encore show all about craving and how our mind works around craving. So see you next Tuesday. And we are building out our calendar for the year. We have about 20 shows that we're creating and this was a great one to start the new year. Thank you, Larry, and thank you everyone for participating. Good night.

Good.