Building Sustainable Movements for Systems Change - Deepa Iyer

8:24PM Jun 13, 2023

Speakers:

Julie Confer

Becky Endicott

Jonathan McCoy

Deepa Iyer

Keywords:

nonprofits

solidarity

deepa

community

creating

feel

organization

jon

movement

framework

people

moment

role

centering

becky

connect

learn

frontline

podcast

philanthropy

Hey, I'm Jon.

And I'm Becky.

And this is the We Are For Good podcast.

Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.

We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an Impact Uprising.

So welcome to the good community, where Nonprofit Professionals, philanthropist world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.

So let's get started. Becky, how are ya

You know, I always got a little pep in my step Jon, when we have powerful women who are changing the world on the podcast, and we are certainly in the presence of one of those today, and it is our great joy to introduce to the community Deepa Iiar, she is leading an incredible project on solidarity and social movements at the building movement project. She's also the host of solidarity is this podcast. And y'all if you are here, trying to learn about how do we build sustainable movements for systems change, then this is your episode because Deepa is the queen of looking and seeing how do we see and value everyone and their humanity for what they bring to the table. And over the course of two decades, she's just been supporting these social movements and playing many roles in that vein, like frontline responders. She's the weaver. She's a storyteller in the guide. And her political and community homes include Asian American, South Asian, Muslim and Arab ecosystems, where she spent 15 years and policy advocacy and coalition building in the wake of the September 11 attacks and the ensuing backlash. So right now, Deepa is leading projects on solidarity and social movements. And at this incredible, national nonprofit organization that's catalyzing social change through research, relationships and resources. So we are so excited and PS we are taking notes because we want to know how to build sustainable movements leading to impact leading to change, leading to more wholeness and balance for individuals. So I just got to give a little shout out because Deepa is an immigrant who moved to Kentucky, from Kerala, India, where she was 12 years old. And she graduated from the University of Notre Dame Law School and Vanderbilt University. She has got this incredible son that she loves making memories with she's going to share her random astrology trip tips with her patient friends, she loves to read, we've already talked about books and discover a new series that she wants to bench. So Deepa, you sound like me and someone who could be my friend come on into the we're for good podcasts house, we're glad you're here.

Oh, thank you so much for having me, Becky. And, Jon, I really appreciate it.

Well, we're just looking at your bio, or looking at your website, we're looking at just this building movement project and what you've been able to awaken in your space. And we're just puddles on the floor, because it is such a beautiful, wholesome movement that really honors that first core value of our company showing that everyone matters. But before we dive into that, we want to get to know you. So take us back and tell us about being an immigrant coming to the states. And that kind of led you into this work.

Yeah. So as you mentioned earlier, Becky, in the intro, I was born and raised in Kerala, India, and moved to the United States with my parents and my brother when I was 12. And we moved to Kentucky. So this was in the mid 80s. So you could probably guess, that it was a time that was confusing and difficult and challenging for my family in terms of understanding sort of where we fit in and dealing with bullying and harassment and exclusion. And so a lot of those experiences, which are, you know, I don't think they're unique. A lot of immigrants and refugees have those experiences here. Just catalyzed for me a real curiosity and interest in what does it mean to belong? What does it mean to be part of inclusive communities. And so that's really what's shaped much of the work that I've been doing around social change since then.

I mean, I'm never, I never want to like Miss whenever we go back to just like the young moments of our life that are so formative, and really put us on a trajectory for the world we want to create in the projects that are most meaningful to us. And I feel that in my own story, and thank you for taking us back in yours today, too, because we spend a lot of time on the podcast. You know, it's easy and nonprofit work to talk about the tactics all the time. And we always should encourage each other to like, come back and like let's talk about the bigger problems. Let's talk about the bigger questions, because we want to institute system level change. And I know we have a kindred spirit in you and you've spent, you know, 20 years galvanizing social movements around something that's bigger rather than just a moment, but it's like really looking for change that's lasting and sustainable. So tell us about what you've learned throughout that career. And now thread that into the work you're doing with the building movements project.

I will try.

That sounds easy in two minutes. Right?

That was a heavy question, but I can't wait.

So I think I think a couple of things that I've learned, and I'm still on a learning journey, obviously, just like all of us, I do think that, you know, it's really important, as you were saying, Jon, for us to recall and remember our points of entry in doing the work that we care about. And so some for some of us, that is our childhood experiences. For others, it is mentors and elders who have guided us right, our histories. But I think it's important to ground ourselves. Because oftentimes, I don't know about you, but oftentimes, I feel super overwhelmed, and really kind of confused. And I think coming back to the why can be really helpful. And then the other kinds of pieces I've learned are really around how we move from this level of self awareness and grounding into creating the Wii and the US. And that's really where social movements come into play, and ecosystems come into play. So how are we actually connecting our why with the bigger why, how are we in relationship with other organizations and partners and movements? What are the connections and the commonalities? And then lastly, as you said, Jon, how do we move a lot of that awareness and tactics and strategies towards creating the systems changes that we want, when it comes to policy or institutional change, or even culture change. So that's a little bit of what I think about a lot, how we how we incorporate the AI, the we and the US, and are on this kind of evolutionary trajectory within our movements or networks in our communities.

That was such a simple and beautiful explanation of what you've done. And I also think it kind of it gave me a juxtaposition of what I felt like nonprofit and philanthropy was in my first 15 years, which was I go out, and I tell my story and connect donors to my mission. And the evolution of what we're seeing now is really about, no, we're not going out to find donors, we're going out to find believers, and we're going to activate them. And that activation is going to ripple and scale. And it's not just going to impact our little nonprofit, it's going to impact the moment and the issue. And perhaps it can help another nonprofit by creating this awareness. And I guess I'm up here just quoting all of our values back to us. But our fifth core value is cultivate and mobilize the rabid fan. And I just think you have done this beautifully. And I didn't even go into all of the movements that you have created with all of these different beautiful mosaic of groups in your career. But I wonder when you look back at them, and you kind of have that retrospect. And you look about what's potential is there for for taking for the taking a nonprofit, talk about that role, that nonprofits have to play, and movement building, because we are really trying to awaken this anyone can be a change agent, anyone can do more than just transact a gift and push it back to the mission, we can all play a very important role in Mission movement. So where can nonprofits start? And what is that role look like?

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think that for nonprofits in our country today, as you, as you all know, you know, they play so many different roles. And at the building movement project, we are cognizant of nonprofits acting as social service providers, or nonprofits who are doing mutual aid or nonprofits who are actually organizing and base building or doing advocacy. So we think a lot about the various ways in which social change happens, and how nonprofits are playing a role in mobilizing towards social change. But what we also find is that often nonprofits are working in silos. And there's the that's the piece where we think a lot about how do nonprofits actually kind of do the important work they're doing in their lanes, right, but also understand that when they're connected to each other, they can bring about greater change and greater impact. So sometimes that can look like creating coalition's or networks or ecosystems. Sometimes it can look like solidarity, where we're standing up for another community, even if we're not part of that community. Sometimes that can look like taking some risks in terms of pivoting and shifting our programs so that we're actually meeting the broader needs of our communities. And I think we saw some of this during the pandemic in particular. So it's really that piece around how nonprofits can do their mission well, and really effectively, but also be connected to a much broader ecosystem, so that we can get to the greater impact in the communities we care about.

I mean, thank you for that, because that's the kind of conversations that I think need to be had to meet this moment. You know, and I'll say, in my career, not to dog on any place that I've been, but it's just it's, it's sometimes feels like we're all building our individual kingdoms. And we could go so much further, if we could just knock down the walls, you know. And so, I know, it's easy to talk about, but you're big into mobilizing people, you know, and really making this tangible and making it doable. And so I want to talk about this incredible book. And I mean, some often that I see a spiral bound book, so we got to talk about that designer in me, designers geeking out and saying, that is intentional, you know, to show that it's a workbook, it's a guide book. But it's called social change, now a guide for reflection, and connection. And so I want to talk about what inspired you to write this for sure. But the fact that you centered reflection in your work, is something that it feels like we're not doing enough of I know, in building we're for good, we don't do enough of it. So you talk about why you created this and specifically talk about that reflection piece, because I think it's so critical. Yeah,

maybe I'll start there and work backwards, because I think you're totally right. I think that a lot of the reasons why it is difficult for us to take the time to reflect as individual change agents, or as nonprofit or community leaders, is because oftentimes, we are in a cycle of crisis. And we are continually moving from one crisis to the next. This moment right now, I think, is showing us sort of this unprecedented level of overlapping crises in our country, where we're dealing with news coming in very quickly, we're dealing with the types of policies and attacks on, you know, the bodies and rights and livelihoods of people around the country. And it's, it's, it's something that doesn't actually give us a lot of time to reflect because we have to mobilize, we have to do the rapid response. So I think it's really hard to take the time to do the reflection, but it's something that we feel, and we have seen is extremely important, not just during our strategic planning retreat, or our staff retreat, but how do we embed more intentional time to even take 10 minutes to say, okay, you know, we did this program are this campaign and it finished? What did we learn from it? What was the impact? How could we structure things differently, right. So all of those kinds of questions can just be embedded in if we can make them happen. And the book that I wrote is actually, I hope, a vehicle and tool for individuals and leaders to actually take the time to reflect because as you pointed out, Jon, it is indeed a guide and a workbook. So it has a lot of pages that look like journal entries, where you have questions and prompts and you can respond to those. And it's an opportunity to take the pause and to take the breath and recognize the work is always going to be there. But if we want to do it in a effective and sustainable way, we also need to build in a little time to reflect, evaluate, and course correct. So I can talk about the content of the book more people on but I just wanted to tell you a little bit about the reflection and design piece of the workbook.

Thank you for creating that because I think I need that nudge. Becky's really good at nudging me sometimes to be like, Hey, can we just stop and celebrate this moment or talk about as as an Enneagram? Nine, it's easy for me also to just gloss over things and say, Hey, let's talk about why this didn't work. You know, those are the conversations that are also so good that reflection creates. So thank you for giving us the nudge and the blanks to fill in to like actually think through those things. Because I think it's so powerful if you don't especially have a person nudging you. So thank you for being that for the leader. So talk us through the framework that you unpack in the book.

So the book focuses on a framework that I developed back in 2017. When I was feeling like I was on the seesaw from feeling really numb one moment to feeling really outraged. It was during the time of the Muslim ban, it was a time of you know, children being separated from their families. You all know, I think when I'm talking about and I, at the time, I was I had left a position of being an executive director for 10 years and I was really confused. You know, what is my role? How do I step in? How do I stay connected to the communities I care about? And I realized as I reflected on that, that oftentimes, you know people show up playing different roles. and are contributing to a broader set of values and goals. And that's really what led to this framework. It is deceptively simple if you look at it, but if you work with it, but if you work with it, I think it can actually bring about some pretty interesting insights for folks. And I've seen this happen in real life as we've trained on this framework. So it's called the social change ecosystem map, and it has three components, there's an opportunity for us to think about our values, the why, right that we do this. There are 10 roles that we're invited to think about playing like frontline responder, Weaver, guide, storyteller, etc. And then thirdly, the entire framework is built on this idea of the ecosystem, that we are connected to each other, we find commonalities, we are prepared to deal with conflict, we think about interdependence, all of the characteristics that you know, come into an ecosystem. And the last thing I'll quickly say is that the framework is multi dimensional. So you can use it as an individual person who works at a nonprofit, you can use it as an institution, so mapping out the staff members in your nonprofit, and you can use it in terms of a network. So looking at a coalition and mapping out all of the different organizations that play different roles, right? And what you learned through the process is, am I playing too many roles? And maybe that's why I'm exhausted? Or the answer

is yes. On all of that for everybody.

That's a yellow flag. For Am I taking too much space? All the time playing the same role in every situation, right? Or? Is my organization not connected? With enough partners? Then how do I how do we actually build out our ecosystem so that it's diverse? So those are all some outcomes that can come out of using the framework?

Okay, I love the simplicity. But you're right, when you double click on those three, there is a lot of work and understanding to be done there. And I think it would be very interesting for nonprofits to sort of dive into this exercise, because it's going to lift some things that we probably know about each other, and things that we don't, but I also think it lifts opportunities that are so rife for the moment. And I I wonder if you even have the ability to walk us through like a case study of someone who maybe quickly may have done this framework and what they figured out and what was the outcome?

I mean, I can share a personal lesson, because I think that that also helps. So for for myself when I use this framework, and I answer the question, what role do I most often play in social change? Right? That's kind of the big question with this. I tend to say frontline responder, and that's some of the work I've done in the post 9/11. Era and and during the last administration. So the frontline responder is usually the individual or the organization that can kind of figure out what to do in a crisis. Right? So they know how to do rapid response, it really built that muscle. They know whom to call, they know how to organize resources and messaging, and people. And what I also realized, because the second kind of reflection question is what is the toll and the impact of playing that role on you? And as I worked with that question, it was really clear to me that it took a real toll on me in terms of playing a frontline responder, I often got burnt out and exhausted. Sometimes I couldn't, I felt numb and I wasn't having the appropriate reaction to a community crisis. Because I was immediately in like, organizer mode. And I wasn't always clear about how I connected the rapid response to the long term building that nonprofits and movements need to be doing right. So that set of realizations helped me understand that I am better off in this moment, in this context, to play the role of a guide to support other frontline responders. So when there is a crisis, I'm there to answer questions or ask questions. Or say, Oh, we have these resources from like five years ago that you might be able to take and do something with, right. So playing the role of a guide allows me to still stay in space and stay in the community without having to play the role of a frontline responder. It also creates lots more room for new folks to come in and play those roles and still get some mentorship and support. So that's just one example of how you could think about the impact of a role and kind of switching it based on context and what it does for you But the thing about the framework is that it allows us to not have to leave, you know, we don't have to leave our community, we don't have to feel like we're not of service anymore. And I often work with movement elders, who actually liked this framework, because they say, oftentimes, that folks, you know, feel like they they're being discarded that there's no use for them, right? Which is so not true. So if they see themselves instead, as guides, or storytellers or weavers, right, there's a space then for people who've been doing this work for a long time, and don't feel like all of a sudden, they have to leave it. So those are just two examples of how the framework can be useful.

Jon,

My friend, this is incredible

Someone sees us, sees the roles, we can step into this, this is so empowering.

You don't haveto be on the front line for you know, like this. This is making me just think I'd love to just weave this together with the conversation of mental health and sustainability, and how are we retaining staff and you whether it's a movement, or whether it's an organization, it's like, this is the conversation and I know, we get pigeonholed to think I am good on the frontlines, which is not me, by the way, like I'm thinking of our emergency room, nurses at the hospital, we worked out and I'm like, Oh, those people are frontline people. Yeah, I couldn't do that. I get queasy, and all of that. But creating space and celebrating every person's unique role and how it's needed. Like, that's community. And that is what feels like it brings people alive. So thank you for, for pouring into this work and giving us language to talk about it. I think your use of language in this whole conversation has been so good. In the way you talk about elders, too. I want to like double click on that as a later point. But solidarity is something that you've spent a lot of time pouring into. And it's it's become a bit of a buzzword, I would even say in this day and age. But so I want you to talk about what really is solidarity and share more about your podcast and the conversations you're facilitating because we're here for it. And we want to connect our community to it as well. Yeah, thank you.

Yeah, no, thank you. So. So at the Building Movement Project, when we think a lot about how movements can be in connection with each other, we feel that solidarity is the strategy for that. And we often talk about solidarity as a verb, right? It's not only an outcome, or it's not just a concept, which I totally agree with you, Jon has become hard to even understand what it means because it's used so often like Equity, and Diversity, right. And so, solidarity is really a verb and an action. It's something that we do over and over and time and again, and we've developed some characteristics of solidarity practice. So in order for solidarity to move from being transactional, which is, you know, if you sign on to our statement, we'll come to your rally. That's a little transactional, right? And sometimes we have to do that. But how do we actually challenge ourselves to make it more transformative, where there's a shift in the way that we are acting or we're thinking about long term impact, where we're focused on relationship building, and not just doing something for the moment. So the characteristics of solidarity that we often think about in this too, is built upon movement elders and guides from generations is one the practice of centering. So when we're engaged in solidarity, we want to really think about if we want to make a statement about solidarity, whom actually are we centering, right? And what are their needs? What did they want us to say? And so during the uprisings of 2020, I think this was practiced a lot where people wanted to be in solidarity with black communities in this country. And if we're practicing centering, then what we do is we actually are in relationship with black communities, black leaders and black led organizations, we ask, what is it that you would like us to say, as someone who's not from the community that would support your needs, your demands, your perspectives, right. And we also want to send sort of a call to action to our community, to say this is what we've centered and whom we centered. Now it's our turn right? To actually take some sort of action to be in coliberation, which is another characteristic of solidarity with, in this case, black communities. And that coliberation, though, is not just a fancy word, it means taking a risk. It could mean taking a risk reputational early, it could mean taking a risk with our bodies, it could mean taking a risk in terms of not even being at the table anymore rights giving up something at times. And so that might mean for some that there that they are opening doors to philanthropy for black lead groups and saying, You know what, we actually don't want this line of funding, you need to create funding and space for black led groups in this time, right. So that's an example of coliberation, or I saw a lot of nonprofits say during that time, whatever funding we raise 10% of it is going to go to our black led partners.

Love that.

Right. So those are just some examples of how we center or how we practice collaboration, a few characteristics of solidarity.

You know, something I want to ask you about, Deepa, that's just kind of running in my head right now. Because we have so much chatter. And we get so much feedback in our community, from people in nonprofit who don't feel like they have power, you know, whether it's at an administrative level, maybe they're not a leader in their organization. But they want to stand in solidarity with groups, they they as a brand they as a human being want to, but they're very unaware or feeling leery that maybe their top brass would not support that. Or maybe they're not quite there on the journey yet. Like, what would be your counsel, I am thinking about, like just a 23 year old, starry eyed, nonprofit donor relations coordinator, who wants to stand into this moment who wants to be a change agent for her and for her organization. What do you say to her?

Yeah, I appreciate that so much. And I think you're so right, that this moment has really sparked a lot of awareness and action, right, among folks, including young people. So I think first and foremost, what I would say is, it doesn't have to happen via your organization all the time. Because sometimes you just can't, you know, sometimes you're working somewhere where the values are not aligned with yours. And we've all been in those situations. So taking time to build your community ecosystem outside of your organization is absolutely important. And that could mean, you know, joining a local mutual aid organization or volunteering in some way, right. So really taking the time to figure out where it is that your solidarity stance is most welcomed and needed, where you don't have to push against, you know, as you say, like the top brass and the leadership within your organization. And you can just take the action. So that would be the first thing I would say, where do you want to move your solidarity stance to. And then the second thing is, before we act in solidarity, and you alluded to this, also, Becky, we really want to take some time to learn and understand what is happening. I think that sometimes we just want to quickly do something right. But it is important, because sometimes we will say the wrong thing, or we're afraid of saying the wrong thing that we don't act. So what can we read? What can we learn? Who can we learn from and thankfully, and this is something that I think is so exciting about living in this moment, there's not a lot, but one of the exciting things is that there is so much more in terms of community histories, and documentation, whether it's books or film, where we can learn directly from movement leaders in various communities in this country and beyond. So taking the time to actually be responsible for our own learning, not asking others to educate us, but actually taking the responsibility. And then the third piece, I would say is to and you also talked about this is to recognize one's privilege and one's positionality. Right. So if I actually have and this is what I tell everybody, honestly, including myself, like, you know, the first kind of community that you want to talk to is your own, like whom do I have access to. And so for a lot of white folks who want to stand in solidarity with communities of color, one of the most effective ways to do solidarity work is to talk to other white folks. Because oftentimes, that becomes sort of the burden that people of color have to take on. And it's kind of a double, triple burden, right to have to feel the impact of an issue of injustice personally and in our community, have to talk about it, and then have to persuade and convince, like, say, you know, white communities about it, right. And so these are just different ways to actually take a solidarity stance that is reflective of one's privilege, one's context and one's own education and awareness.

I mean, thank you for that. And the work that y'all are doing at the Building Movement Project, is this hub, like, I mean, I'm seeing the resources and the tools that you have, yes, it's imperative that we take our own, you know, agency to go learn and study but you've made these incredible resources available too as we really work to figure this out in our own life and our own organization. So I'd love to kick it to you to talk about what's there so we can connect people to these sources and tools and just know this is available.

Yeah, absolutely. So, at the Building Movement Project, we catalyze social change, as I've said, and we do it in three ways. We do a lot of research on the nonprofit sector first. So if you're interested in learning about the racial leadership gap, or the glass cliff, that many nonprofit leaders of colors color face, or if you're interested in understanding how leaders of color are dealing with the pandemic's impact and the uprisings. That, you can come to us to find all of that data analysis and reports. The second way in which we do our work is to create resources that are accessible, that are simple, and that actually are relevant to the work that folks are doing. So the social change map is one example. But we also have many other resources, fact sheets, worksheets that people can utilize on our website, which is buildingmovement.org. And then the third thing that we do is we cultivate relationships. So if you are a nonprofit that is really interested in connecting with other organizations in a broader ecosystem, if you want to training on solidarity practice, that is a lot of what we do as well. So come to us for any and all of those resources, relationships and research.

It just feels like Deepa, and this organization are just taking our hand. I mean, truly, I mean, one of our trends for this year was locking arms for impact. And we know that we cannot do this work alone. And it's going to take again, we're back to the movement, we it's going to take a lot of us to lock arms to get our understanding to have our ears open to come with compassion, and civility. And I just really appreciate how you all are showing up with this beautiful framework. You know, we have just believe story is the heartbeat of connection here it is the reason that we are able to connect on a human level with each other. We're wondering if there's a story of philanthropy or even advocacy that has stuck with you and stayed with you in your life that you'd be willing to share with us today.

So I'm really glad you mentioned philanthropy. I think that, you know, philanthropy can oftentimes be a real boon and co-conspirator when it comes to social movements. And at times, as you all know, philanthropy has also been the reason for a lot of the competition and scarcity that happens within nonprofits. So one of the stories of philanthropy that inspires me is called the Rights Relations Collaborative. And it is a formation of indigenous leaders, as well as funder partners in the territories of what's known as British Columbia. And what they really focus on is understanding one the relationship between money and wealth in the philanthropic sector and the land, and the indigenous community. And number two, they have something called an aunties circle, I think that's what it's called, which actually focuses on providing the suggestions and recommendations in terms of what should be funded, and what types of projects and programs should be funded. And we featured them on one of our episodes on the solidarity as this podcast, and it got a lot of responses. Because I think that the way that they're doing this dismantling sort of how we've done things in the past, when it comes to philanthropy, centering the indigenous aunties, right, and, and taking their time with, as we talked about earlier, Jon, reflection, right, and course correction there embedding all those values in, they really have, I think, a tremendous model that can be replicated. And it gave me a lot of hope, about what and how philanthropy can do to show up in the right way with communities.

I mean, are we surprised that Deepa lifts a story of someone that's there a community that is influencing system level change at every level, and really doing this through the power of philanthropy, too. So thank you for that. And we'll link that up on the show notes. I really want to pour into that work and understand it more. So Deepa, if you listen to the podcast as a fellow podcaster. You know, we kind of have some things that happen on a regular basis. And one of those is asking for your one good thing. This is like just a piece of advice can be a habit. It could be a mantra, it could be in your book, or it could just be on your heart in this moment. What is the one good thing you leave with our community today as we start to wrap up?

I think the one good thing that I want to leave is a phrase from Dr. Martin Luther King around the urgency of now. And I believe that when he said it, right in the 60s, there was an urgency of that moment. I think we are still in that urgency. So the question that I would, you know, have us think about is, how are we tending to the urgency of now? What is our role in this moment. So that's what I would leave us with.

Centering reflection

How are we tending to the urgency of now? I mean, what a call to arms about what our role is in this lifetime and humanity. And that was a profound one, which I'm not surprised that deep because you're so wise and evolved in your thinking. And I just, I just think this framework is beautiful, you've impacted so well, it is something that we are absolutely here for. And I know the community is going to want to connect with you. So tell us all the ways that people can connect can work with you, you've got incredible trainings within your organization. And we also want to know, like, where you hang out online,

And how you get that book.

Yeah, drop the Book link too.

to learn more information about our organization, please visit buildingmovement.org. And you will find ways to get in touch with us. But also, as Becky said, the trainings that we offer around solidarity around race equity, around sustainability, around the social change map. And then if you are interested in the framework that we talked about earlier in the book, the website for that is socialchangemap.com. And you can find more information, you can also find ways to order the book, for your organization or for yourself. And where do I hang out online, I'm a bit of a disrupter on Twitter. And I'm a bit more of a weaver on Instagram. So pick your

Love the way you're stepping into those roles, different roles and flexing platform that's fascinating.

And friends, you're probably listening to this in your podcast player right now. So go search this in the search bar. But solidarity is this podcast and find it wherever you listen to podcast and you can hang out with Deepa more often in your earbuds.

I appreciate you mentioning that, thank you.

Of course. I mean, we believe in democratizing conversations and ideas. And if I can just leave everyone as we sort of finish out this conversation with these two thoughts. And I'm just going to reflect back exactly what deepest said, ask yourself, what role do I play in social change? And what is the toll of playing that role? And I think if we can just get in a rhythm of asking that question, on the daily, I think we're going to find that we can be stronger. We're going to step into our power, it's going to feel good. We know that we're going to have stumbles along the way, but find your people who are willing to go with this journey with you because we need to make our corners of the world wherever we are just a little bit brighter. And we start by listening and coming in wholeheartedly. So thank you, Deepa, for awakening that and moving the way that you do through this world. I think your work is massively important.

Thank you so much. I was really moved by what you ended with. So thank you, Becky. Thank you, Jon. It was a really great conversation.

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