Good evening everybody! We are going to interact with the Professor HemaChandran Karah. He is an associate professor with IIT Madras. Let's begin our interaction with him. Good evening, Dr. HemaChandran.
Hey, just call me Hem, JP. So I teach in IIT Madras and well, actually, I'm an assistant professor here. Okay, so but let's get to the theme today. Yeah. JP, you have? Well, you wanted to start somewhere? No.
Yeah, I would like to begin with a brief introduction of know how invisible disabilities can affect the lives of children. Let's begin to know, from what challenges Hemu might have faced in his life. Hemu, can you tell us a bit about your childhood, and how the disability was discovered?
Ok, I, I grew up in Chennai. And, you know, the, my childhood was full of play and equally anxieties, because my sight loss was... people took some time to one figure out that I'm losing sight, maybe around four the process was complete, and another four or five years to come to terms with it, which is usually the case at large, because parents, because of their genuine affection, and they refuse to see a calamity. Well, for any person, disability is not, the arrival of disability is not like getting an American passport. It is, it comes as a calamity. The blow, a death, that kind of situation. And they don't believe that it has come to their familial context. So, my family was not an exception. And big gang of them. I mean, many people, family, extended family and parents, grandparents and neighbors, none of them accepted it. And I was at home to three years, until eight, until one doctor advised my parents and grandparents and so on, Dr. Abraham. Guys, I mean, you will end up spoiling your child's life, if you keep him at home, under your care. You put him in a blind school so that he will make something of himself. So in fact, in a very chiding way. So there began the journey. I mean, they took me to blind school, and schools for the blind. And like any other special school or special spaces, with special teaching techniques and methods, so that people with impairments, children with impairments grew up there learning some skills such as reading Braille, and skills of touch, and so on. And then...
How did your life change as you joined a school, from being home to school, what what big difference was made?
Well, to begin with Braille. I couldn't I mean, now, I'm in 40s. The thing is, I cannot, I cannot claim that I'm accurate when I say I remember this, but I'm sure plenty of fiction is involved. But by and large, I can say that I couldn't, you know, take to Braille quickly. I mean, come on, my cousins and others were writing with a pen and paper, and you have to make dots with.... sometime, for a child, it was an exciting play sometimes it was... out of... it was not in sync with what my cousins and friends in the neighborhood were doing. So it's it's a mixed setting. But you know, children, no matter their disabilities, when they are allowed to play, they sort things out. So that's the importance of play. We cannot overprotect disabled children, at the same time, we cannot leave them insecure, it's a fine balance. I think some amount of fine balance was achieved, I guess. So, in school, learning Braille was fun many times, but it was also different. So, and we had other classes.
Was your school prepared with apparatus and things needed for teaching you?
Say that again?
Did your school have all facility needed as they taught you?
I guess so, I mean, it was in, I mean, as much as they could afford. We were taught music, Braille, world map. And kindergarten, first standard was about getting familiar with the world within senses other than sight, like using touch optimally ears optimally. For example, our second standard teacher, Miss Vanaja would, you know take a dabba with her and shake her dabba like this after going distance for only four seconds, and then we have to listen to that and go to that spot, without too much squandering, you know, you have to. So that kind of very fine training was there. Then, you know, I changed two blind schools. And..
Is there a reason you had to change?
Sorry.
Your reason why you had to change schools?
No, no, the first school little flower was meant for girls. I mean, we were, boys were allowed till fifth standard. And I had to shift to St. Louis, for sixth standard. So, the thing is special, there is a debate about whether we need special schools at all? Special schools can give a homely, mothering, setting, I mean mothering okay, literally, for a lot of kids who cannot afford to go to regular schools. And special schools cater to different disabilities. At the same time, special schools can also harm children, by a monastic approach to things, within the four walls, you get things and you... they don't train enough for children to survive well. And they also can have myopic literally myopic or narrow vision about what can children or cannot disabled children do. So these are the restrictions that come with special school education. So there are now experiments where disabled children can go and join the mainstream school, regular schools and some kind of training, skill set training can be given to learning Braille, learning abacus, learning special softwares and so on.
Yes, do you recommend no special schools or do you recommend children to join regular school and on their way up?
I don't want to this or that, but you know, regular schools should become diverse. Regular schools big and small, rich and poor, they should have more dynamic approach to diversity poor people, rich different disabilities, different abilities. They should start slowly start doing that, I mean some things are happening because of government policies but things should not be on paper but it should be in. So, special schools will disappear on their own when diversity becomes a serious business or genuine way of running schools. Until then, if we dismantle special schools, there will be nothing for many children out there. So, both should go hand in hand. Well, ideal picture, but we are not living in an ideal world no, I mean, things evolve. So, my straight answer is when diversity becomes a serious commitment, special schools will automatically go on their own, specially schools thrive because there is a demand on them.
Hemu, how is the environment for value education in special schools,
environment for
value education?
Value...what value are we talking about, JP?
values behavioral and psychological?
That kind of stuff. Okay. I mean, I was talking about preparation for mainstreaming no. Well, see you do context to context. See, my context, for example, we were not given training and sex education. We were not... sex education was not in the ambit. Now, things are appearing, I mean, sex education is still not properly implemented even in regular schools, mainstream schools. Apart from that, we were by and large, told that sighted community out there, beyond the walls, are different. That kind of overestimating or over or even fantasizing the public outside, I must say it was there but it ought to be there anywhere when you gather into four walls -- world outside four walls is always a wider public, you know?
How about ease in association something and friendships, okay. Well, which one gives more scope? Is it special schools or regular schools?
The friendships, okay. See, when children are brought up together by the principle of accommodation for example, let's not talk in abstract terms. So, suppose we bring, teach your child to share if he has for biscuits, hey beta give to Rani, Ram Peter. And you also have one beta if I tell my child, then he's going to you know or she is going to share. Sharing becomes a important value. But if that is not taught, even special schools can be helll. I mean, why why should we assume that, because 300 odd disabled children are put together, they will learn; their sense of accommodation will automatically become unique. We don't have to assume that. So, in some sense, well when children grow up, no doubt friends are important. But their formative stages will involve three to 15 that age, formative ages, that time friends are no doubt important, neighbor children, and no doubt important, but learning important lessons like this is equally important, and more so, and when these things are in place, things become easier. So, my straight answer to your question is whether special school or non special school, it depends on the inculcation of these values. For example, after 10th I went to a mainstream school, regular school so, you know what, I took to the school and my classmates immediately Thanks to both the my sense of accommodation and my classmates sense of it, they used to read aloud for me, 50 odd times, same paragraph, same lesson, so much that they will read for me, I get the first rank. And they were never never never bored of that behavior. Arre yaar, let him get first rank and they were happy, willing to read in the night, the daytime. And this behavior continued all the way to MA, M.Phil. My classmates used to read for me in the evening in the night. Long novels, Thomas Hardy. Well, even your classmates, Dakshu, Santosh, Suresh. Santosh used to read many books, science fiction for me. So, yeah, I mean, my reading became, well, I could say voracious. And so my Friendship Circle, I mean, they used to read for me loudly, so many different voices, so many different accents. So many dinners and lunch together. So many friendships, interpersonal relationships, fights, battles. All that was part of the growing up. So I guess one should not engage in this or that. But what we do with this and that. I think that should be the way forward.
Yeah. How about... another question which is a little tricky. No, it is a little tricky. How would children with the invisible disabilities overcome motivational challenges, you know. Do they face a lot of motivational issues. Now, how did you build your motivation? What is your motivation?
Okay, invisible. Let's talk about invisibility first. There are different kinds of invisibility. One is that you hide someone behind the wall, then it becomes invisible. For example, families themselves may be ashamed of saying my child has deafness or schizophrenia or blindness. When a cousin is getting married, one maybe hidden. This happens. So it's a conspicuous hiding mad woman in the attic, that kind of behavior. You know na, mad woman in the attic, Jane Eyre, so that kind of behavior. So you hide someone, no matter where their disability is visible or not. That's one invisibility. The other invisibility is one's own withdrawal because you're stigmatized so much that you, you know, start stepping back okay. It's this battle is not worth fighting. I'm exhausted. One can do that. The third kind of invisible I'm sure they're the many more categories I'm doing just thinking out of
Things like face, face blindness
face blindness. Yeah, see what happens with face blindness and low vision, irritatable bowel syndrome, lupus acute, blood related conditions, HIV or AIDS positive, the thing is outside you're fine, but inside you may be going through pain, suffering, fatigue and some other emotional imbalances. So they will not know it. So you might get brickbats, I mean, and you might face open discrimination or you might face you know, harsh disciplinary punishments for for things that, and also, when when people talk about disability, they only have open disabilities like mine in view. They don't still imagine invisible conditions, because there is no quick solution to it. Mostly, it will involve attitudinal changes, sense of, for example, suppose somebody comes to my a student comes to my office. If I develop the habit of asking, "Do you need any assistance? Apart from classroom lectures?" If I develop the habit of asking that, no matter who is my student, then a student with an invisible disability may automatically open up.
Certainly, Yes.
Yeah. You don't have to particularly chase someone and ask, "Do you have an invisible disabilty?" So So attitudinal climate, it's, it's, it's a cultivation of that. That's a very sophisticated moral thinking, but that does not mean it is not achievable. It is achievable.
Yeah, we were talking about the motivation factors, you know. I mean, let me find out from you. who's your role model? What is your inspiration?
Yeah, my second standard teacher, my, my readers. Every time somebody has been inspiring, yeah, JP. So it's hard to single out someone. But every stage I looked up to someone.
Who are some people who contributed a lot to your success.
Again, see as like you, I must say, my parents and family. You know, and also friends. No doubt, those who read for me day and night I told you, whether or not I get first rank. So that kind of thing. Yeah.
Where did you do your masters?
Hyderabad University, your place, my dear.
Yeah. Master and M Phil also?
M Phil, I came back to Madras.
Came back to Madras.
But when did we meet, JP?
During your PhD?
That's right. I came there for a brief while.
Yeah. Yeah
Before going to UK for a PhD.
I always wondered how did you manage to spend time with all these of my classmates when you are in the NRS hostel and we're in ABCD hostels.
I know, this reading, this behavior, collective reading, I always read together for the best part of my life. But now computer and mobile phone, like all of non disabled people, it has also changed my reading behavior. Yeah. Now when Dakshu or somebody says I will read for you, I say, well, I read with my screen reader, then I'll come, so that that change. But the best part of my life was interpersonal reading, or group reading. It was like a mass, church mass. At least two people, at least one more person would animate the book that I wanted to read. Sometimes six, seven. All my friends bear witness to it.
The same text when the reader is different, does it change?
Ya, I know, I know, I know, it will animate sometimes I will remember the laughters giggles gossips and other things that go with reading and not the book. I'm sure it is the same for my readers.
How is the difference in environment between India and abroad, you stoppped/studied up to the Masters, here and research abroad
see Britain is a, see the politics there is different. Therefore the university scape is different. And it's also an advanced world, I mean economically well developed. So disabilities are, you know, treated differently. Social model of disability is the important framework there. Basically, it means if you give equal opportunity, if you make the environment friendly, your disability should not matter. But if you don't make the social environment friendly, then your disability becomes a real problem. So in other words, you shift the burden from individual to the society. So that's the British politics model. So I was the beneficiary. Sorry, come
Did you have better technology there?
Yeah, I was introduced to in fact, I started computers here, but I perfected it there, sort of, yeah. I gadgets and gizmos was the paradigm there if you like that, yeah. So but so the nature of, it does not mean that society is perfect. Well, far from it. True inclusion, will not get over with gadgets and gizmos. It will happen culturally, morally, politically, emotionally. And I'm not just throwing words, these are all real realms of accommodation. So that will take ages and one needs to keep pushing boundaries, I guess.
How challenging is finding an employment and are therer employment related challenges too?
Oh Yes, it is one thing to study, which is, which is equally difficult. It's yet another thing to be employed. To this date, I must say state is the best employer of people with disability. Private sector is catching up. There are some good work done on how private sector is doing. But still say, state is the primary. I was I, I made so a few hundred applications after my M. Phil for a job, I'd never got one. So that shows well it's all good talk to talk about diversity and accommodation, and but how will I take, why will I take risk to employ? See, but that is also, there is also one more tricky thing. It's not tricky, actually. Suppose I go to a private institution, say a corporate thing and I proved very well. So they won't hesitate to hire the next disabled employee, but they don't want to be the first. This Road Not Taken phenomenon which we read in the school, you know, Robert Frost, that kind of problem. I guess that is again comes to pushing and pushing and pushing. And but employment definitely is a bigger problem in India and abroad, both both ways.
So inclusive environment is not there in the employment market yet.
Yeah, it evolves. It's evolving. It It also involves taking risk. Well, business doing business is about taking risk. I guess one should consider this as one of the risks worth taking because disability is not a burden always. Yeah, it is a human resource. It brings special values, special way of looking at things like reading collective reading I was talking about minus my disability, I wouldn't have experienced it at all.
Yeah, looking into your own life and the lives of others, do you recommend any policy changes?
Lots of people more more immersed in the grassroots than me, they are doing lots of work. They do see people with a disability and non disabled, people, disabled and non disabled. Lots of them are great doing great work at the grassroots in villages, cities with different lenses, gender, caste, economic inequalities, access, structural violence, so lots of things people are doing, okay. But, you know, right now, we need to gather those works together, and then keep influencing structural changes at a larger context, at higher level to lower level I mean, where policies are made to implementation. Perhaps talking to each other is where we lack or some improvement is required on that front, different sectors of disability talking to each other, achieving common goals, mutually transformative endeavors, that kind of thing we need, you know, so we don't anymore need to talk about which disability is more difficult than the other. Luckily, that devil is not rampant, we should not do that. Each disability interacts with the environment with great challenges and opportunities. And that's how one should talk to each other.
Hemu, did you ever consider starting a business or entering into politics?
I've not, I it never occurred to me, JP. I don't think I'm. I just read all my life and I just and I am fortunate to get into a job where I just read write and teach and speak and chat away like this and also write, I want to write more and see what happens.
Writing a book or research papers?
Both I guess.
How wonderful. We look forward to read.
Yeah thanks JP I mean, so kind of you to you know, come up with these questions. Do you want to give the last word?
Very grateful, Hemu.
No no, about I, I remember, you know, we met in NRS hostel, you, Suresh and all these folks.
Aravind. Yeah
Yeah, Yeah. Thank you, JP.
Great oppotunity to come back to you and discuss you know these important things.
Oh ya, Sure, Sure.
As people listen to know your opinions and your ideas, I'm sure there will be many who will be inspired from your experience. Thank you so much.
Thank you. So, so kind to hear from one own, you know, contemporary like this. I am. immensely pleased to be part of your work. Thank you
