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Hey, I'm Jon.
And I'm Becky.
And this is the We Are For Good podcast.
Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.
So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
So let's get started. Hey, Becky, what's happening?
Are you ready to make a bold move today, John?
I am ready for this bold move for like most of the year. Let me just be really honest about this. So I'm so delighted. We have got Shanna Hocking on the podcast today. And I met her like literally earlier this year and knew that this book was coming out and knew that this would be a conversation that we would be so delighted to have on the podcast. And so today, we get to finally have that conversation. It's all about making that one bold move today. Let me tell you a little bit about Shanna. She is one of us. She was in the fundraising seat. For many years, she spent time at many multibillion dollar organizations, including the Wharton School, Children's Hospital, Philadelphia, the University of Alabama, and Duke, you know, some powerhouses of fundraising. And she personally has raised over $150 million throughout her career. But more recently, you know, she had this manuscript, and I want her to tell us a little bit of the behind the scenes story of this. But she saw the power of this one bold move a day. And she's just started sharing that which led to creating a podcast, which will lead to just like creating conversations around this. And now ultimately, it's been picked up. It's been published, and we're now celebrating your book release here in November. But I mean, get this. It's been featured in HBr. It's been featured in Entrepreneur in Chicago Tribune, and we could go through all the places. And today we're adding the We Are For Good podcast to that list. So Shauna, get in this house. Welcome to the podcast.
I'm so glad to be in this house. And thank you for that very gracious introduction.
Well, I mean, I really have been counted down I want to give a shout out to our friend, Boi Carpenter, she connected us all those months ago, she was just came on the podcast herself and one of our favorite humans. But we just want to create space. Like, tell us a little bit about your journey, I gave a very quick intro, but take us back to you know, growing up to what informed you wanting to step into this work that's led to this amazing book.
Thank you. I'm so excited to talk about this with you and the nonprofit community because that is my heart and my home. I found fundraising as a career at age 18, which back then was extremely unusual. I'm not sure it's unusual now, either. And it was a combination of everything that I had wanted to pursue in my life and my career, serving others creating opportunities, and finding ways to help connect organizational goals and individual goals, and finding the joy and getting back. And so I worked my way up. In the fundraising world. I started as an intern in college, I worked at my alma mater, I cold called the Duke University to get a job there, like the ultimate development move. I'm going to be in Durham, North Carolina, you know, just want to stop by and let you know why you should hire me. And that really set me up
Go 18-year-old you.
Type A Enneagram. Three, what is going on? Good for you.
I think it was really naivete. I mean, I, I don't know. Like, I hope I still have that kind of, like strong willingness to put myself out there and follow through. And always, because I really believed in what was important, and I wasn't gonna let other people decide how I was going to do that. And so I just kept going. And you know, the thing I like to tell people is that the truth is, when I graduated from college with all those years already internship, I couldn't get a job as a major gift officer, I sent out and was rejected from 100 jobs, 100 interviews, to become a major gift officer, and everyone kept saying you don't have enough experience to do this job. And so I share that because you can look and see someone's like whole life and whole career and think, oh, my gosh, everything really came together for them. And it didn't. And that experience informed. Certainly the one bold move at a concept, but also who I was as a leader and helping to promote people based on their potential and not based on their background or performance. So I did all of that. You know, worked in wonderful organizations led amazing teams worked with special donors on special gifts that changed the world and changed Our lives and I realized along the way, it didn't have to be this hard in this important work, that we could create a roadmap to help other people to learn from the things that we made mistakes on, and that we got through those barriers. And so I started writing and teaching and speaking on the side. And you know, Jon, as you said in the introduction, ultimately, that led to the podcast, and then to the book that I hope is in your hands today.
Wow. I mean, I just think this is a very interesting journey. And the the fact that you rooted your Inception story in rejection makes you so human. It makes you so relatable Shanna, and every single one of us and nonprofit have experienced that have butted up against it. And we've failed forward from it. And I just look at this incredible pedigree and career that you've had. And I'm, and I'm very fascinated by the one bold move. And in we talk a lot about the one good thing and you've got the one bold move. It's like we're cousins, and this. And I really I want to talk about how just a small shift, a small significant shift that could be made every single day could be long lasting for the sector, because I talk off and on this podcast, I use this analogy because I love musical theater, that nonprofit is a lot like Oliver, the little boy, Oliver, we have had this mindset that we have to come to the table with kind of our empty bowls outstretched and say, Please, please may have some more. And you're saying, and we are saying, no, no, you step into that power, you step into that knowledge, you step into that network and influence that you have an eye and we want to know about one bold move. And we want to know about how people can apply this and how do you define it? And does it have to be the biggest move to be bold?
First, I think we are cousins, because I'm also have a background in musical theater. And I was actually in Oliver. So we had.
Okay, we're singing the rest of this interview.
Oh my gosh. That's amazing.
Amazing. Amazing.
Jon has a great singing voice. Yeah, Jon jump in there.
Well, and I think the tie in with musical theater is really powerful into the nonprofit sector, too. I mean, we are, we are telling a story to people we are, we are giving them a moment of respite and joy, that will stay with them forever if we do this well. And so I think that that is just a really wonderful analogy that you're using in the nonprofit community. And for me, I do very much have pride in the work that we do, I proudly walk into a cocktail party and say that I'm a fundraiser, I used to say I was a major gift officer, even when people wanted to talk to anyone else, except for me at that cocktail, right. But I believed so much in the power of philanthropy, that I felt like it was my responsibility and my opportunity. And so that really translated for me into the concept of one bold move a day. Because as we go, you know, on a donor visit, or when we're writing a proposal, or when we're speaking on stage, at case or AFP or anything else, we are choosing to put ourselves out there, and these are the things that will stay with us, and that they will help us achieve our goals. And in the moment, we may think, Oh, that was just that was just my job, or that was just what I do. And one bold move a day says no, you have to stop and celebrate your progress. You have to look at what you've accomplished and how far you've come. Because I know that 18 year old me who was setting out on this path and projectory could never have imagined the life that I have now. And in this one bold move a day, they are sometimes the big ones where you're applying for a new job or asking for a promotion, or asking for a seven or eight figure gift. And they're also when you correct someone when they mispronounce your name, or when you ask the barista to fix your order, because the coffee wasn't exactly the way that you had expected it to be. And it's in nurturing your personal relationships. It's in creating the connections that are important for you to thrive, well beyond your work in your career and your leadership.
Wow. I mean, I think I can't not see the resilience in you as a person. And obviously that threads through your work. I mean, where does that come from in you? Like was that just innate? Or is that something that you have flagged? Because I just think at a young age, you knew how to just keep showing up? And I'm just curious about that.
I think that all of us come to resilience in different ways. And, you know, everyone has their own story. And for me, I think, you know, I went through tough things as a kid, not any tougher than anybody else. But my own stories that helped define who I was. I had a lot of people who told me that I was, you know, at a young age like elementary school and middle school that like, you know, I talked to him I knew too much. I had too many ideas. And I could have let those things decide my path. Or I could have pursued them anyway. And I think that, you know, my mom was an incredible supporter of me. And I would come home and I would share the stories, and she would bring me over to the mirror, and she would say, Shani, that's my nickname. Look in the mirror. And I want you to tell yourself how amazing you are. And those moments gave me the inner fortitude to keep going, even when I faced challenges or barriers or obstacles. And I've continued to evolve and learn how I can do that, throughout my career in life,
Way to go Shanna's mom, but that's so affirming. And I love the rejection of cynicism and the embracing of our true selves. It's so so healthy. And I want to dive into this book, because I think people are gonna want to take some notes. So this is the portion where if you're listening to this, and you want to get your notepad out, grab it now because we're going to be diving into the four mindsets that you kind of outline in one bold move a day, and I want you to share what these four mindsets are and how are they going to help us to be now I feel like I'm shaking and punny emboldened to make some of these shifts in our daily habits start breaking down the the first one, I think is a gratitude mindset.
Sure. So each of these mindsets become the foundation of your bold move mindset. And the gratitude mindset, to me is where it all begins. And I know that this is something that you all share as a value on the We Are For Good podcast, that when we find ways to focus on what we're grateful for each day, it keeps us very present in the moment, it helps us to remember what we've done, how we've touched other lives and how other people have touched ours. The and mindset is an opportunity for us to all accept that in every moment, there is a both and rather than an either, or, when we feel like life is giving us a choice, and that we have to feel or do only one possible outcome, we are limited. And when we can accept that there are two seemingly competing truths that we can hold at the same time, we will reach abundance. And this is the opportunity to find joy, even in challenge. The happiness mindset. I think about this so much in the context of fundraising and nonprofit and my own life, we kept setting all of these goals. In fundraising, that's like what we do, we set goals every year, we're going to do them. And on July one or the first day of your fiscal year, you wake up and you start all over again at zero. And when we have this mindset that we are always going on to the next thing without celebrating where we came from, that we're missing the joy in the journey. Like we picked up the phone and called someone. That's That's fantastic. That's a bold move, let's celebrate that let's high five each other, we have to believe that we can make a difference in the world around us. And that is where happiness comes from, not the outcomes, because those don't always go as planned. And then the progress mindset, the idea that you really do have to celebrate how far you've come. Particularly in our nonprofit community, we are seeing unbelievable levels of burnout, people feeling demotivated when we look before where we've come and celebrate what we have done and what we have learned, then we will prevent burnout, we will give ourselves opportunities to feel joy and celebration and the work that we do, which will help us keep going it'll give us more motivated and confident for the future.
Wow. I mean, those are powerful as they stack. And I just think this whole, this whole approach is all about the stacking the power of just doing something again and again. And we just came out of a series, you know the habits of an impactful fundraiser, because it really does come down to what are the things that we're deeply committed to. And it's less tied to what happens as much as just showing up and doing the things that we know will lead to success down the road. And so, mindsets are powerful. We love to talk about them, but I love to to really break down and demystify because we all have mindsets, regardless if they're positive or negative. How do you cultivate these? You know, how do you cultivate more gratitude and more and mindset and all the happiness all these different pieces? What's your best advice and counsel?
Well, you're right that it is a choice we make every day to cultivate this, this doesn't just happen for us. It takes time. And what I will say that the gratitude mindset for me started with writing a daily gratitude list. I was going through some really significant transition, you know, the workplace reorg that we're seeing in a lot of nonprofits, understaffed, overworked all the things and the last thing that I was feeling was grateful. And after wallowing in my own feelings for a while, and you know, going down a path where I probably had not such great behaviors and choices. I realized I needed to pick myself back up and so I started the grind attitude list every night, three things of what I was grateful for. And on the first day, y'all I will tell you, it was like, I am grateful for my coffee. I am grateful. Because it required me to be like really focused on good things, even when they were hard. And then over time it was I'm grateful for the conversation I have with my son on the way to school today, I'm grateful that I was able to tell my team member what a difference they made, and the work that they were doing. And so it took it took effort took time consistency, but that, to me is one of the most approachable ways that anyone can start with a gratitude mindset.
I think these seem like simple habits. But I just don't think we make the time in our life to do these kinds of things. And I can still hear my high school student council director like trying to get us to use a daily planner, and he's waving it up. And he's like, if you do this for two weeks, every single day, you will never, ever not use your daily planner. And he was 100%. Right. And it's why I've never not had a calendar since I was about 17. But I think practicing the art of gratitude is going to help you make some of those bold moves because your eyes are open, your heart is full. This is a practice not not just in healthy mindsets, but just in mental health and self care and giving yourself compassion. I think that there's so many value sets that can be learned from this. And I have to confess to you Shauna, that the first time I saw your four mindsets, I thought it was a typo. When it said the and mindset, I was like, was there something before that there's something and mindset. So help help break it down for me talk about what an example could be of living out the and mindset.
Yeah, so I when I came up with the and mindset, it was during the pandemic, it was toward the beginning, when we were going through for everyone, like one of the hardest times in our lives, everything was hard. Everything that we thought we knew was wiped away changed. And we felt uncertainty, we felt fear. And, and yet there was beautiful moments that happened for families. And for teams, there were sparks of joy. And people felt like it was incongruent, to honor those moments of joy. And I felt like the whole point of this is that we don't have to be either or all the time that you can find joy in challenge. And that when you stop fighting these feelings and just kind of lean into them, that you'll understand that we're complex, we're more than one thing at all times. Another point I want to make, particularly for the nonprofit sector, is everyone's so mission driven, and they love the work that they do. And the and mindset reminds us that you can love something and be great at it and still get exhausted and still have burnout and still feel tired. Yeah, we feel shame, that when we're doing something we love that we're not supposed to feel those things. And again, we get caught up in like fighting our feelings rather than owning and comforting our feelings. And it's limiting us and things are hard. And so if you take your breaks, and you practice your rest, which I talked about in the book, that you'll get back to finding your joy again too.
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I know we you were talking to kindred spirits here. I mean, it's why we carve out time every year to just dive into mental health specifically in our sector. And I know that there's so much power in these mindsets that they can help us with burnout and fatigue and overwhelm. And I wonder if you just talk about how you've seen that come to life is just kind of can give balm to that, you know, facing our sector so prominently.
I have used these mindsets myself throughout my own leadership of large teams, leading that you know, the day that we all kind of went home that first day of the pandemic. These mindsets have guided me in my abilities to show up as a leader and person and wife and mother that I wanted to be and I think it's a it's a continual practice and I have seen these kinds of mindsets work for team members, for clients, for organizations that I'm consulting for, that when they understand what these mindsets are, then they figure out how they can put them into practice in these small ways, and then build up over time. And, you know, nothing's going to cure burnout just on our own. That's an organizational issue that we need to work through. And one will move a day can help leaders in doing that for their teams too. But there is so much power in the work that we do that if we can give ourselves a chance to celebrate our progress, to know that it's okay to be ambitious and grateful, and to honor our wins, and to find ways to do this with people who will support us on our journey. We're doing everything we can to keep serving our communities and serving ourselves.
Isn't that just the great conundrum of our sector? I have always wondered, why are we so focused on stewarding everybody else, making everybody else feel great about what they've done? And we rarely pause, to take stock of what we've done. And to look around. I was just thinking when you said that comment that comment about I took time to recognize my colleague and I thought, How many times do we do that? That should be a daily practice, looking for the gratitude and how other people are serving us. Can you imagine how motivating and how how that would build teams. And I think we're just writing this conversation as we're coming off just this fiery week of mental health week that we hosted last October, and we host every October. And we heard from so many nonprofits, about their burnout, and professionals are tired, and their fatigue is extremely high. Their self care is extremely low. And I would love for you to adapt this concept, this one bold move and ask you like what would you say to someone who's listening? who's struggling with that self care struggling with impostor syndrome? And maybe self doubt? How can these frameworks that you've outlined here, help us move forward and take better care of ourselves?
Well, first, I want to tell everyone who's listening and is feeling these things that I'm proud of you, you are doing amazing work, and you're an amazing person. And you have to know that for yourself, that is a foundation for believing in yourself in order to care for yourself. And then to apply one bold move a day, it's to understand that you are worth your own investment, that when you create these bold moves, that you are better able to do the work, the care the serving that's important to you. And they don't have to take all of your time, some of these things can take under five minutes. And that when you do this for yourself, you are better positioning, your well being and your work for the long term.
I mean, I just think I can see how this kid just really opened up a lot of power to teams as you kind of embrace this. And I just want to give you a platform to explain what what functionally in a nonprofit office, what did bold moves look like? You know, what are those kinds of actions that we can kind of point to just to break it down even further? Because I think there's application for managers. And there's for junior people in the office and all of this, have that context. So give us some some examples.
So glad you asked that question, Jon. I'm so curious about it, too. Yeah.
So in the book, there are different sections for individual contributors for team leaders to create bold moves within their workplace. And I can give you just a few examples. In the leading from where you are section, which is my fundamental belief that every one of us is a leader, regardless of our title or authority. It's the energy by which we serve our organization and ourselves, that reach out to support a colleague, check in on how they're doing high five them, when they close that gift, be the first person to say, you did an awesome job by reaching out to that person no one's ever been able to get in front of before. For team leaders, it's about giving and getting meaningful feedback. None of us know how we're showing up in the world if we don't have people who care enough to tell us the effects that we have. So there's sections in there about how to give feedback to your team members, even in a remote and hybrid work environment, and how to how to ask for feedback from your team members, and how to support your team and giving feedback to each other. Because what I often see in these nonprofit meetings, and we have 1000 of them a day, is that we talk about the next big initiative or project or event. And everything sounds real good. Like no one's saying anything negative. We're like, Yay, everything's good. We walk out of the meeting, and then there's the meeting after the meeting. Okay, well, that's not really helpful for any of us. So what if you as a leader, taught and modeled for your team, by saying what's missing from this plan? When you do that you say to your team members, I'm not perfect, I don't have this all figured out. And I expect you to contribute to the success of this work. I'm inviting you to do that. Also, as a team leader, figuring out how to support and recognize your team members for what they need from you and managing them the way they need to be managed. I talk about my about me document in here, which is something I use oftentimes on coaching clients, about how to help understand what their team members need from them, and how to tell them who they are as a leader, so that their team members can start working with them and build trust faster in the organization.
I just think these are like wisdom bombs that are so applicable to anybody, whether you're a nonprofit, whether you're working in tech, whether you're a mom listening to us on your grocery store, run I mean, these habits are good for the body. They're good for the soul, and they're good for community. And so I have to think Shawna that someone who has practice gratitude, so much, just sees the world differently. And we love to talk about story on this podcast and how it moves with us and stays with us. What's a story in your career in your life, truly, we've had so many people pull back into their childhood for profound moments of philanthropy, but what's one that lives for you that you really felt like you were changed by?
One of the the donor journeys that I am proudest of being a part of was, you know, a young man whose father had recently passed away. And it was devastating, he had passed away, you know, far too early, not that there's ever a good time, but far too early, far too young. They both gone to the same university where I worked. And as he was, you know, getting past that, at that immediate grief stage, I had a chance to visit with him, and understand what was so important about their family, and what their values were and how philanthropy played a role in that. And I worked together with this man and his family to create a scholarship program, where they set up to support 10 students at the time, with scholarships and the College where he and his father had graduated from. He was probably in his early 40s, maybe, maybe not even doing successful in business came from a very successful family, who'd worked very hard to get where they were. This was his first major gift. And it was the largest that the family had made to the organization, and the joy in his life from finding ways to make meaning of this very difficult experience he went through through philanthropy, and I played this tiny role in being a conduit for that joy and that meaning and not to mention the students who would benefit. It was something I'll always be very proud of, because it created a sense of purpose. It created joy, even through challenge. And I, I saw recently that they made a an eight figure gift to the same university not too long ago, and I reached out to commend him. And he thanked me for starting them on that history of philanthropy at the organization.
You never know, the seeds that you are planting for which it will create shade for someone that you may never meet that it's extraordinary, great story.
Hear stories like that. And I'm like, why does fundraising just have this persona of, you know, people don't aspire to be that as kids and I'm like, What a cool intersection that we get to sit at, you know, to get to have that as your day job, having those kinds of conversations solely centered at meaning and purpose. So thank you for sharing that. I've been counting down and excited to get to ask you your one good thing. I mean, the person that wrote the book on making the one bold move a day, what do you say is we round this out, we want to give you a chance to say there a mantra or a life hack or whatever you're feeling in this moment, what's a good thing you can leave with her audience today.
So I love that you ask people for this. And I love that when we were talking about it, you shared how it evolves for you to what I really found so meaningful. When we were planning for this conversation today, Jon and Becky was that I got to speak to where my heart is to the to the nonprofit and fundraisers that I am one of them. And to say that I wrote this book, because we don't have books that we can look at as role models for our profession, where people are finding joy in this work, and that we look at it and when think I can do that too. This is relatable. This is my story. Certainly it's my life in my career and the research that I cite, but I want fundraisers and nonprofit leaders to feel like this is their story. And so that's my one good thing is that I get to bring in more honor and joy to this profession and tell more people about the important work that we do.
Well, if you weren't boosted before, that'll boost you right out of this conversation. Thank you, Shawn. I think we totally value a line on that too. We're grateful that your work your voice and your heart in this is in the world. I just hope that it is a ripple, you know, that gets cast and just spreads far and wide. So, okay, tell people how they can get this book, where are you online, tell us all the connection points. So people can come track down more information on this.
So my book is available wherever you like to buy books bookshop.org, your local community bookstore, Amazon, Barnes and Noble. And you can find more information about me and my book at oneboldmoveaday.com. I'm active on LinkedIn, and Instagram, if you want to connect there and continue learning together, holy cow.
I mean, this has been lived up to all the hype that I've been excited for this conversation. We're just so excited for this journey, and that it's out in the wild for you. And just thanks for coming in to the house today. This was so awesome.
Thank you for building the house.
Thank you so much.
100 year old house over here. I wish I knew but that's actually
100 year old that this work is so needed. And I think it's right for this moment. So lean in friends, and report back to us. Let us know how you're making those bold moves. And let's see if we can try to track some patterns here and figure out how to make this movement get bigger. So thank you Shauna, appreciate you. Keep going.
Thank you. Thank you both.
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