This is Arielle and you are listening to the think inclusive podcast recording from my office in
beautiful Marietta, Georgia, you are listening to the think inclusive podcast episode 15. Today we have Ariel Hobbs, founder of the line League, a fantastic organization that is changing how we build inclusive schools around the United States. We talked about what inclusion looks like and her family, and how the lion league is different from other social inclusion organizations. After the podcast, please stop by our Patreon page, where you can support our goal to bring you in depth interviews with Inclusive Education and Community efficacy thought leaders. In order to cover our hosting transcription and production costs. We would like to meet our goal of $100 per month, please help keep this vital resource available to everyone by pledging your support of one 510 or $20 per month. When you pledge as little as $1 per month you get access to our patron only feed for blog posts, Special Edition podcasts, and picture updates along the way. So without further ado, here is the interview. All right. Welcome to the think inclusive podcast. I have Ariel Hobbs with us today. She is the founder of a nonprofit called the lion League. She has been a thinker and writer her whole life that found her passion when she had to rise up and fight for her son didn't have the same opportunities as everyone else through her nonprofit erielle has curated a curriculum that teaches students how to be more inclusive with their disabled peers. Thank you for being on the inclusive think inclusive podcast area.
Happy to be here.
No, I'm saying that right. erielle or Ariel?
Arielle, you are saying it right. All right. Okay.
Yeah, perfect. So we did. We had talked a few months ago now about the lion league. And I was just really excited about what the lion League was. And it is and can be. And I wanted you to come on the podcast to kind of explain to our listeners, what it is and how it relates to think inclusive, thinking, inclusive and inclusion in general. So why don't we start off with what is the lion League?
Well, thank you for being interested. That always gets me more excited about what I do when I meet people that are excited about what I do. So I'm super happy to be here and explain what the lion league is. The lion league simply is a free school based program that engages students to be more intentional about including their peers with disability.
Okay. So how is it more intentional? As opposed to? So? Yeah, I'll go ahead and let you explain that.
Yes, for me, there's a lot of programs out there that kind of pair children up or they have mentors or buddies. But that is a, it might not end up that way. But it starts as a forced relationship with your parents with this person. It's not a natural friendship forming. It's not natural interest of one another. It can be that of course. And I think it has been I'm not saying a lot of the programs are not successful. I think that they are. But for me, I just wanted something that really focused on teaching, typically developing students more about what is inclusion, what is disability? How can we be more understanding and accepting and just natural, the natural stuff comes after that. Because if you if you're more aware of what inclusion is of what disability is, for people around you, then you're going to just the friendships, the interest level is just going to be more of a natural occurrence rather than a forced one.
Okay, so, so help me understand how this would look in maybe just a typical Elementary School. Now. It's, let me let me just go back and say this isn't just for elementary school. Correct? This is for like K through 12? Correct? Correct.
We have an elementary school curriculum, we have a middle school curriculum, and we have a high school curriculum. They of course, they teach the same basic concepts, but we break it down differently for the age groups.
Okay. And is this something that's done during the school day? Or Or is it like an after school club? Or can it be I guess it could be both?
Yeah, it can be either. I really don't put any restrictions on the school. My focus is really just to get everyone talking about inclusion. So I don't care how you do it. And that's one of the things that I say right away. Whenever I speak to somebody or somebody has interest in the lion, like, we're thinking after school club, Great, that sounds perfect. We're thinking about, you know, something during the day. Great, that sounds fantastic. I have one school that's doing it. They're hitting every student in the school, their counselor goes around and does like a social and emotional curriculum. And then that elementary school four times a year, she teaches alignment curriculum. So every single student in that school is getting aligned like curriculum. And I think that is really, really cool Institute schools believe in it so much, that they make sure that this isn't just a group of 10 students that is going to that are going to hear this, we're going to teach this to everybody. And that just makes me feel good about kind of what we're doing over here at the line like so it looks totally different for every school. I think, initially, I started it with the thought that it would be after school programs, and students would really get together. And kind of have a movie, you know, obviously, teacher has to oversee and all that, but really student run. And what I've found is, you know, just kind of we're still at the beginning stages and learning so much. But counselors and the administrative staff are really grabbing a hold of the idea, and the concept and the mission of the lion lake. And they're really wanting to teach it to more broad groups and just 15 students that gets together after school. And I'm really happy about that. Fantastic.
So I have a couple more questions about the curriculum. So the correct Yeah, that is developed. Is that something that that you wrote, or that you adapted?
Yeah, I wrote it, just from some personal experience from some basic research. And then I try and work each year, we want the curriculum to be different, because we hope that we're maintaining some of the same students. And eventually, our elementary students will be middle schoolers, and we still want them to be in the limelight. So the concepts will be the same. But we hope to come at it from different perspectives every year. So I have a spot on my website where you can actually volunteer to help me write the curriculum for that year. It's just like a little committee that we put together. And it's annual, because we want it changing every year. So it's only a one year, you know, volunteer position, it's very low key, I'm pretty low key. And I just really want other perspectives in writing this curriculum, not just mine at all. So this year, I worked with two really fabulous, special education teachers. And we just approached it from their point of view and mine. And that's where the curriculum came from this year, I write the bulk of it for sure. Just, like I said, little bit of research and personal experience. But I really would love for the committee to transform into something really beautiful, that everyone's excited about every year, like who's gonna write it this year. So I want that piece to become really exciting. And that's a new facet for us within the lion Lake. Okay.
So, for instance, let's talk about let's talk about this year's curriculum. Sure, what would be and I know, I know that each school is going to implement the curriculum differently. But as far as let's just talking about content because I can as far as for people who are not familiar with like, what an inclusion, you know, driven curriculum, what the content looks like, can you tell me let's say we're in our first kind of lesson or unit? Can you give us some specific content examples of what would be in that unit?
Yeah, so the first one, so there's four for elementary school, and there's eight lessons for middle and high school. So Middle and High School meet monthly, elementary, we didn't want to put that on the elementary teachers or students, so they meet four times a year. First one is inclusion, just what is inclusion. And then if you're in middle or high school, that second piece of the curriculum is going to break down. Okay, well, now how do we actually apply what we learned last month? So in elementary school, again, it's more of just a basic overview, like what is inclusion and kind of a little bit of like, how can we, there's always how there's always action on the curriculum for every single curriculum that comes out whether it's, you're an elementary school, middle, or high four, or eight. So at the end of your session, when you're when these students are learning the curriculum, they have a takeaway, they have a piece of paper, that's a printout and they put their own action items in there, how am I going to apply what I've learned for the next 3060 days? And we really want them to come back to that next session and say, I challenged myself to talk to, you know, three new students that I didn't know much about and ask them questions or whatever their personal challenges were, and then we hope that they report those challenges. So throughout the year, we're hoping that every single meeting gets more rich because the students are doing and understanding and just kind of having greater awareness as we go along throughout the year.
I like that I like that a lot. And how I know that you probably don't dictate this, but what what are some examples of how schools are implementing this? As far as getting kids involved in recruiting, I guess, students so it, is it like a school wide announcement? Have you heard schools of doing like school wide announcements? Or like school wide flyers? Or? Or do teachers kind of have their eye on certain students and they go in, they ask them individually? Like, how does that work?
Very different across the board. I think some really feel like, oh, we'll do this as like a leadership, I already have a leadership group formed. So why don't we just add it to what they do? That's great, too. And then like I said, that one school really took it another step further, and they're teaching it to everybody. So there's no option there. There's nothing going home, every kid is hearing of our curriculum, which I think is amazing. That's an elementary school here in Texas. I have another school here in Texas that has, it's an elementary school, but they have like, some afternoon, after school clubs. And the so that's an optional sign up, the club list goes home, and then students can decide if they want to join. I have a school in Florida who just sends out I think they only do in this specific elementary school, they do second, through fifth graders, just because of understanding they, I think everyone can understand it, K through five, but they decided to do second through fifth. And they sent home the option they I think they made a little presentation at school. And then they asked kids if they were interested. And if they were, they sent home just a little bit of information for the parents to let them know, their children wanted to participate in this. So everyone's doing it so different. But that's what I love that I have a middle school here in Texas, who it's a leadership group, and a middle school in Arkansas, and they have a specific group that they get together, it's actually kind of a reverse inclusion situation. So they use some of their special education students, and then some of the reverse inclusion students that come. And then they're all working on it together. And that's been a really, really fun one to watch as well.
Yeah, so that actually, that was my next question as far as how students with disabilities, or that are, you know, labeled a special education students? How they are really included in this process? So is that also up to the school? Or is it something that you are? On the front end is telling schools, that if you're going to form a line League? You know, you should also be having students with disabilities in the group as far as learning these skills as well?
Yeah, it's, it's suggested, and it's pushed. On my end, I can't make anybody do anything on their end, right. But definitely, definitely want full inclusion in even in the lion Lake, because it's so much rich, more rich, when we do have students with whole different types of differences. Whether it's disability or its race or its background, I think that that becomes really, really cool, because they can all speak from different places. So it is more than suggested that they have students with disabilities in the limelight groups.
That yeah, that's awesome. I love it. Let's talk about Yeah, I guess let's talk about your personal experience in, in the why, of, you know, why you started the lion League. In your in our introduction. We talked about you rising up and fighting for your son. So maybe tell us specifically what happened and why, you know, why did you start the line League?
Absolutely. It was a unfortunate experience, but, you know, turned into me really finding my passion. And so I'm grateful. But we signed up. I have three kids. My middle son is eight, and he has an intellectual disability and he's nonverbal. We signed him up when he was in first grade for like a kinder first basketball thing like Kinder first grade basketball, very chill. I mean, supposed to be just super fun. And so we thought this would be perfect for him. He loves basketball like called the local sports league in our area and just said, Hey is, you know, are you inclusive? And they said, Yeah, we're totally inclusive. I said, that's fantastic. Let me tell you a little bit about my son, I think he's going to need like a person to maybe go come alongside him a little bit, because he doesn't understand basic directions sometimes. And I just gave them a little overview of him. And they said, Yeah, this is great, we would love to have him I, I paid my money. I brought him that first time. And nobody even said hello to us. And I thought, well, that's a little odd, because all the other parents kind of just threw their kids into the gym, and they sat on the bleachers. So I stayed with Sullivan, on the gym floor. And we found that they started, and nobody still spoke to us. And I tried to kind of worm my way over to the coach and introduce myself. And she didn't seem very interested in speaking to me. So somebody that played a little bit of basketball. And then the coach kind of was walking around checking on it all the kids, and I'm the only parent on the court, it's very obvious that Silva needs a little more assistance and all of the other children. And she kind of looked at me, and started to walk over and then decided against it, turned around and walked away. And I thought, all my goodness, what is happening right now. So I didn't want to upset my son, but I couldn't stay, I was getting really fired up, I was getting really emotional. And I decided to leave. So we pulled out. I called them, you know, I told him that I need my money back and how I felt about them a little bit. And I was just gravely disappointed in their lack of welcoming us, including Sullivan, and just trying to accommodate him in the very minimal way that he needs accommodation. Sally is very, very friendly, very social. And so I thought that they really just dropped the ball, I found that after that, I just stayed angry. I'm a very, very happy, positive person. So this was not normal for me. And instead of letting that ate me up, after a couple of weeks of kind of being angry, I decided that this was something that I had to do something about. So I created initially what was called pride, inclusive sport, pride, inclusive sports was created to kind of try and push this idea of inclusive recreation activity. So there's a lot of things out there for typically developing children. There's a lot of things out there for children with disabilities. But there's nothing that's meshing the two. And why aren't our kids playing together? For me, all kids should be playing together. That doesn't seem too far fetched. So, but in the world of competitive sports, it's a very, very difficult thing. And I don't look at it the way that a lot of people do. So I completely failed with my first mission of trying to include people in recreation, really, truly just totally bombed. The sports when really well, actually, for two and a half years, we had wonderful special needs disability programming for it, it was fantastic. We had soccer, we had swimming, we had all of these different things. But in the end, there was no parents of typically developing children that would sign up their kids for our activities. So after two years, I decided to take a step back and just say, What am I missing? Obviously missing something because I'm segregating the community that I'm trying to include, so I'm failing miserably at doing what I intended to do. So through this, I took a break. I wasn't sure if I was going to continue what I was doing, and in this time, is when I decided, no, I'm not going to stop what I'm doing, I'm going to change what I'm doing. And I'm going to educate people on inclusion and disability, because obviously, they don't understand. So I was in a place of passion. And that's where the lion Link was created, specifically, and with my son in mind, but obviously, with the benefit of hopefully, affecting the lives of all people in the disability community in general, right.
Now, in seeing all that about, about the, you know, the segregation that happens with just sports in general, because you have sports that are so competitive. It's such a it's such a competitive world, the sports, you know, world, especially for kids, and you know, you sign your kid up for Little League, and it's just it's very intense. So, very, so you, you know, you and you saw that when you created the private inclusive sports. That model All that if it was attractive to families who have, you know, children with special needs or disabilities? So do you think, though that there's a place for special needs or disability specific events, or, or organizations? I know that that I know that that wasn't it didn't line up with what you were thinking of what you wanted to do. But I guess in general, right, like, for instance, Special Olympics, or, you know, I know, there's other organizations that are disability specific. Right? Do you feel like there's a place for that?
I'm a, I'm a realist. I'm a dreamer, too, which is cool. proud that I'm both of those things. But I have to live now. And I have to hope for better. And that's, I think, having a child with disabilities, I have found that spot, right, I have to live in the space of this is what this looks like today. But I'm going to hope that this looks like x, y, and z in the coming weeks and months and years. So for me right now, there is a place for the Special Olympics because I see firsthand how much joy it brings to the disability community. Last week, I last weekend, we were participated in a Special Olympic swimming event, and my son had the best time and just felt like a superstar. And had, we had a wonderful experience. And we met amazing people, and everyone was having a great time. So there is space for that. Do I wish that sports are not as hyper competitive at this age? Do I wish that the world was different? And we could have kids playing with one another all on the same swim team? Absolutely, I do. But I also feel like I have to look at right now. So I dream about there not being a need for the Special Olympics. But I don't think that we're there yet.
I think that's I think that's a really good point. Because me, you know, you know, part of, you know, my background as far as in the education world in what classrooms look like, in special education. And I feel very, I feel very similar. In that, and I'm about to ask you, I guess your opinion a bit about the self contained versus inclusive, you know, model, okay, and special education. But I find myself thinking the same thing as, as in I have a dream, and I have a vision that we can have inclusive schools, and those inclusive schools will look a certain way where they're right. You know, like you said, there's no need for the Special Olympics, there's no need for self contained classrooms. But we're not there yet. Right. And we're not and I and, and I used to feel really sick and bad about that. Because being in education, you know, for, you know, so long, and seeing this disconnect, that I felt like I was betraying my ideals, because I'm still, you know, working in this in this system that does have these self contained classrooms. But I think what it comes down to for me is that I'm really in it for the kids, you know, the kids aren't, the kids aren't the problem. You know, like, the students are not the they're not what is holding us back. Right. So as long as I have that in mind, and just try to do what's best for kids, just like you, you know, you're trying to do what's best for your son and kids like your son, who needs you know, a little bit extra help. And so, you know, you are trying to push people into what could be, but at the same time, you're participating in Special Olympics, you're, you're participating in what's right now available. And
absolutely, I would not deprive him of that. Yeah, exactly.
Exactly. Yeah. So I just talked a lot, so I apologize. I didn't mean to like, step all over your your stuff. No,
oh my god. No. No, I love the fun part. But
so let me ask you, do you feel that kind of same kind of tension as far as you know, education for for your son, and what that looks like?
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's gonna be a similar answer. Personally, I am all for full inclusion in school. But in doing what I do, I'm so fortunate to meet amazing parents of children with disabilities, meeting individuals that have disabilities, young and old. And I welcome this conversation, always, because I'm, I always want to hear both sides. And I have heard both sides. I think when I first started this inclusion journey, as for, I thought that everyone felt felt like me, especially parents, I felt like of course, they all want their kids to be included. Of course, they all want, you know, full inclusion in schools. But then I met a couple parents that were like, no, not interested in that. And I was like, blown away by this. I'm not now because I've been in it for a little while. But when I first really, you know, became a disability parents, and I was all for that for my child. And I was so shocked when I met people that weren't, but I love hearing why. And I think as long as we're like, respectful, and always willing to learn and grow, I think it's beautiful to hear both sides. And I'd love to hear why. Because some of them, it's just their, their fear of having their child in, engaged in the general education setting all day. And I get that too, you know, if you have a very medically fragile child, I get that fear 100%. So I think that, personally, I totally am for full inclusion in schools. But I also want to be very respectful. And some of the parents who have fears and are nervous about what that looks like for their children.
Yeah, and, and, and also, you know, I just want to say that it, it does come out of fear, but that there's a reason for the fear, because they've seen and I've seen to where the, the, there's a system that's not set up for this to happen in a, in an authentic way. And there's a lot of factors for that. And there's a lot of reasons why there's a lot of barriers for inclusive education to thrive. But the one thing that I kind of go back to you is that this is, this is not what we're advocating for, as far as for inclusive education, and also for what you're talking about. With what you're promoting with the lion League. It's not like this doesn't happen, like, inclusive models happen. And they happen all over the country, and they happen all over the world. And they're happening right now. Like, this is not a fit. This is not a fairy tale. This is research based. It's, it's, it is literally, it is literally happening. So we have this dream of, of something happening, right. But it's not like it's never happened before. And we can point examples. Now, you know, people can say whatever they like about, well, that wouldn't work here. But at least we can point to examples and say, This is how this particular community has decided to implement these values. And, and hopefully, you know, with organizations like lately, and you know, and other ones, that we can say, Yes, this can happen in your community, you have to make it a priority. So, right, yes. So that's why I'm just really excited about, you know, the ideas that we're talking about and, and what you're promoting, you know, with the line leak, so thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, how can people who are interested in the lion League, and what you're doing, how can they contact you and get curriculum for their school or, you know, after school club or, or whatever?
Absolutely. The lion league.org is our website. Everything is on there description of our curriculum. We also offer kind of workshops for schools. Right now. We're just offering them locally in Texas or if I'm drivable to you. So possibly like Louisiana, Arkansas. But we we, that would be me just coming in and doing like two workshops a year if your school may be not ready to embrace the actual full curriculum of the lion leg. And then we also, yes, we have tons of different volunteer opportunities like I spoke about earlier. So visiting the website is definitely the best way there's tons of contact information on the website where people can get in touch with me, and I usually answer person Emily, so I'd love to hear from everybody. And I would love to hear from any of our listeners. Perfect.
Are you also on social media? And is there a way they can connect there?
Yes. So again, through the website, you can certainly do that. We're Facebook, we're on Twitter. I very don't tweet very much if we're going to be honest. Why Instagram, and you can connect with me personally on Facebook as well. And again, always thrilled to connect with people personally, not just professionally.
Awesome. Awesome. And one more thing before, you know, before I let you go, absolutely as as a little bit of a teaser, right? Are you still in process of writing a children's book?
I am, the children's book is written. Okay, it's a series. The first two are rich, and actually, which is fantastic and exciting. I have an agent that I was picked up with in the spring. And we're in the process of just pitching to publishing houses. And we're really excited about the potential of that children's book series coming out in the near future.
Awesome. So. So you're committing to coming back on the program on the podcast and talking about your children's book. Correct? 100%. Stuck. Yeah. All right. Well, I'd like to, I'd like to thank Ariel Hubbs, founder of the nonprofit, the lion League, coming on the thick inclusive podcast. Thanks for your time. Thank you. That is our show. We would like to thank erielle from The Lion league for joining us. Make sure you check out their website, the lion league.org. And you can find them on Facebook and Twitter. Follow think inclusive on the web at think conclusive.us as well as Twitter, Facebook, Google Plus, and now Instagram. Today's show was produced by myself, talking into USB headphones, zoom h1, handy recorder, MacBook Pro GarageBand and a Skype account. You can also subscribe to the conclusive podcasts via the iTunes Music Store, Google Play stitcher or podomatic.com, the largest community of independent podcasters on the planet from Marietta, Georgia. Please join us again on the thinking cluesive podcast. Thanks for your time and attention
