Hollywood Scandal Part 1: The Dark Secrets of Katherine Hepburn & Spencer Tracy

7:42PM Jun 10, 2022

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We have very exciting news for you. Listen close. Today we're launching a deep dive four parter discussion about sex scandal and Hollywood. I'm Alisha Rai.

And I'm Sarah Wendell. Welcome to lovestruck daily where we bring scandalous love stories to your eardrums everyday this week. I'm in love with that I'm in love with you. All right, Alicia, we doing some past, present and future gossip scandals

future. I don't think we have a psychic God, but maybe, maybe maybe future in terms of the kids that have been born of these scandals. Yeah,

I mean, one thing that I have learned as we have been researching and learning about these different stories is that everything repeats, every everything does. Yeah. In the words of theologian and philosopher, Bruce Springsteen, everything dies, but maybe everything comes back. Yes. And

I'm so excited that we're doing this during your birthday week. And as as anybody who listens knows you are a big fan of celebrity gossip. You like you love love narratives. I love it and you don't like you. You follow Dubois, which is like a very popular sort of I do not actually I'll do MMA, but he's all

right. Am I follow the subreddit, right? Why we do MMA? This is like, to me, yes, there's a whole series of security. Here is another gossip narrative that I find amazing. There are subreddits devoted to topics that actually hate the creator of that topic like the Harry Potter suffer. They do not like the creator of Harry Potter can't believe that's true. Dubois hates DuBois. The Instagram feed and the host of the Instagram feed hates the subreddit. It's kind of amazing. That is

kind of amazing. And like, isn't it though they were outed right to Ma is like who the person is. recently. Yes,

there was a journalist who did a deep dive on was pretty sure they they proved who was behind the account.

And I remember everyone was like, well, that's like, wah wah. Like it wasn't nobody. Nobody anybody thought, wow, really

white, rich, privileged person with access to celebrity and fashion. Who could have seen it coming? Yeah. Okay.

So today, we're gonna start with old Hollywood, which do you so I have a very weird blind spot for anything pop culture related in America before the 1980s except for like Star Wars. Like the things that went to other countries like that were exported. I know really well, and everything else. I'm like, I don't know who these old Hollywood stars are. But you are a big fan. Right? Like, you know, these people.

I'm not a big fan, but I know enough about them. I do love those

like Instagram accounts or tumblers back in the day where it was just like hot old people like hot like black and white people. And, and of course, who does that better than Hollywood? It's true. Yeah. There's some beautiful people back in the day. Yeah. And today is our first day of for of answering this question. How has our fascination with Hollywood scandals changed over time? And to help us out? Since we're starting in the past, we're inviting Professor Jay Miller che on to the show. Professor Mala che teaches at West Virginia University where he specialises in film and theatre history and is here to tell us about two of our favourites Katharine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy, who may have actually been involved in a scandal within a scandal. That is my favourite.

Dr. Muller che thank you so much for joining us. I am so excited to talk with you about some vintage Hollywood drama. Could I first ask, what do you do and how awesome is it to do what you do?

I teach theatre and film at West Virginia University in Morgantown. Big fan. Oh, thank you, Mom years. Let's go. I have. I have been interested in film and sort of pop culture before I knew it was a area of research my whole life. When I was getting my PhD in theatre, I was stuck for a dissertation topic. And in desperation, I wrote a letter to Larry Gelbart, who created mash for television wrote Tootsie, wrote A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum, wrote for Sid Caesar, Bob Hope, read buttons, etc. And to my astonishment, he sent me back a letter saying, When do we start? And that was the beginning of my career, studying one of the great comic geniuses, one of the colleagues of Neil Simon Mel Brooks, Carl Reiner, Woody Allen, you know, he's worked with almost any You name it comedy. So that was like my comedy grad school was dealing with Larry. And of course, he was a film writer, television writer, stage writer. So it really was in my wheelhouse to research him. And that helped get me a job, obviously, in the book. And, you know, I've been at West Virginia University more than 20 years now. So I think I'll stay. Yeah, I

mean, why not?

Yeah, you know, moving, moving, the number of books I have, would be fatal. So that's, that's really my background.

That's so cool. I want to start by asking you about Spencer Tracy and Katharine Hepburn. Can you give listeners a context who was Katharine Hepburn and who was Spencer Tracy?

Okay, sure. For your young, your younger listeners, right. Katharine Hepburn was, you know, she started as an actress in New York, around the early 30s. And when the Group Theatre was forming, she was invited to one of her Clements kind of nightly lectures on the theatre. Yes. And he said, Miss Hepburn, would you like to join the group theatre? And she said, No, I don't think so. I'm gonna be a big star. Go ahead, ma'am.

Absolutely. And she walked away, right? We stand a confident queen.

She did. She did become a big star. And she was friends with a man named Phillip Berry, who was a playwright, he wrote a wonderful play called Holiday, which is not as well known as his big hit The Philadelphia Story, which he actually gave Katharine Hepburn the rights to, oh, when she went out to Hollywood, she basically held out and said, No, I'm going to be the star of this movie. Even though you might think I'm an unbreakable, you know, box office poison, which was her reputation at the time. She was hard to work with because she was, you know, headstrong, and she knew what you wanted to do. And she was very good at what she did. But she wasn't as as malleable as the Hollywood machine wanted her to be, you know, your slacks. Yes. Right. And she insisted on wearing slacks in The Philadelphia Story, which is

groundbreaking at the time. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

So The Philadelphia Story was sort of the the achievement of Katharine Hepburn in her early career. She went on to do the women and great, great films in the African Queen, right, we can talk about her time with Humphrey Bogart. She's most famous today probably for those Spencer Tracy movies, Adam's rib, Desk Set, Pat and Mike. And then of course, the sort of the PSD resistance was, Guess Who's Coming to Dinner right? Now, Spencer Tracy grew up as a sort of Midwestern or Catholic. And, you know, there's an irony there because he was in Boystown, right. He played a priest, talking about the great orphanage, Boystown. And when somebody asked him, Well, why don't you divorce your wife and, you know, hook up with Katharine Hepburn? He said, Well, I'm a Catholic. I don't want to, I can't divorce. But he can have an affair. Right? It's okay for him to have the affair, but not to divorce. So I think that's kind of selective Catholicism. No, I call it that. Anyway, he went on to do I mean, he's, he's just one of the great actors in Hollywood, sort of history, his, his most famous acting advice is acting as easy. Just don't let them catch you doing it.

That's good advice. Actually,

it's absolutely the best acting advice I've ever heard. You know, learn your lines don't bump into the furniture, those are all sort of like the basic tenets of the of the Spencer Tracy style, if you want to call it that, but he's, he's kind of an everyman paternal figure in, you know, not just a priest, but, you know, he's the lawyer in Adam's rib, and he's got a lot of gravitas. And then, of course, the crowning achievement was, Guess Who's Coming to Dinner, which in the 60s was a watershed moment for race relations. And it made a made a strong, you know, the Sidney Poitier who is, you know, is venerated today. And, you know, middle America could not blink, Spencer Tracy and Catherine hipper they had to take in that story, whether they believed in the message or not. So that was a real, you know, sort of victory for race relations in a time in the 60s when you know, cities were burned. Katharine Hepburn, you know, she had to kind of call time on some filming days because Spencer was just too tired to to keep working and, and he shot a lot of his scenes and takes sitting down that sort of thing. So it was really the last labour of love. And then Katharine Hepburn just to finish her career. on a strong note, she in 1968 Did the Lion in Winter and listened to her supporting cast and her movie character meets Peter O'Toole. Anthony Hopkins. Timothy Dalton Yep. I mean, this is like a full, you know, amazing cast. If you haven't seen the Lion in Winter. It's a good movie. Oh, it's a brilliant movie. It's it's like Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf meets British history. Yeah, it's you know, it's got those knockdown drag out marital struggles between Peter O'Toole and Katharine Hepburn. Well, she won the Academy Award that year for her performance as the Queen and she tied with whom here's your trivia for the day. Who did she tie with? In 1968? For the Best Actress Oscar

was the Julie Andrews that year?

No, no, she was earlier. It was actually it was Barbra Streisand for fun. Oh,

jeez, you don't tie with Barbara. She doesn't like that.

Oh, no. Well, I think at that stage of her career, she she gladly accepted. Being in the same conversation as Katharine Hepburn.

That's true.

But you know, she's gone on to No, she's she's done. Okay.

She's been alright. Yeah, she has her career hasn't been

the mythic relationship between Spencer Tracy and Katharine Hepburn that she talks about in her memoir is one of those great Hollywood love stories, right? He was married, but they were devoted to each other Catherine and Spencer.

So at that time with Catherine and Spencer, did, did the public know about their fair early on? Or did it sort of come out on purpose? What did the public think of their relationship?

I think that I think that they were forgiving, because it was clear that they had chemistry.

This is a really wild old Hollywood story, because they seem to have done a lot that not a lot of people knew about.

Well, you know, if I if I could blow your mind a little

bit, please do. It is my favourite thing.

It's a scandal within a scandal. So even better, tell me everything.

We're gonna take a beat. Go have a sip of water or coffee, wine or whatever you need. And we'll be right back

I believe that they were absolutely in love. Now, did they have a sexual relationship? This is one of those questions that leads us to that. That sort of under the covers or under under the cover of darkness kind of thing. I think. According to some scholars today, over the last 10 years, it's been purported that Katharine Hepburn was a lesbian. I've heard that rumour and Spencer Tracy was bisexual. And so that led to a kind of a she was his beard. And he was her Merkin if you know what a Merkin is. Yes,

I've heard of America referred to as Canada's Merkin.

Oh, oh, well, you know, yeah, that'll put hair on your, ya know? If you remember if you remember Dr. Strangelove, yes, the President of the United States was Merkin. muscley. Yep. Yep. That's a subtle that's the only

word for subtle right on the nose there.

So anyway, get getting back to Spencer Tracy and Katharine Hepburn. You know, she liked to wear pants. She was you know, athletic. She had all those kinds of cliches of the independent woman. But according to the author of a book called Full Service, which was made into a series on Netflix, where they showed the old Hollywood, the kind of the procurer ran a gas station and guys, Hollywood celebrities would pull up in their cars and a young man or woman was would jump in the car, and they would drive off for an assignation. And so full service being one of the terms around gas stations, filling stations, this the author of Phillips, I believe, is his name, Mark Phillips, he talked about Spencer Tracy having to go down a couple of drinks, or maybe even a full bottle before he would engage in that sort of thing. And so, you know, that's a scandal in itself, that they were so well protected, that we thought we were getting the dirt when we found out that they were having a relationship, but that's nowhere near the depth of the kind of the story, if you will. And so the myth of they're having this lifelong love affair is actually a cover, even though it seems to be a scandal in itself.

Wow. That's really sad to that. I know that at the time there were morality clauses in their contracts about what they get caught doing and that their images. Yeah, yep. And that their images were very tightly controlled by the marketing machine of the studios to which they were contracted. And if you were this role, you were staying in that role. It's and I mean, I think we kind of see that same process with Disney and the young people who work for Disney. This is your role Disney will market you in this role, and you will stay in this role because that That's the contract. So they're they're inside a morality clause. And they might be essentially protecting each other from behind the barriers of that. Yeah. Wow, that's really something.

So that's that's the Spencer Tracy and Katharine Hepburn story. They were stars. They got along, famously. And I have no doubt that they loved each other deeply. But whether it was concentrated in a kind of a sexual, I don't know what you would call it heterosexual cisgender relationship? That's the question. And I don't know if there if anybody can answer that completely. But there's a lot of evidence that they were both sort of situated in different in different ways. Looking in different directions,

is fascinating to think about, especially right now in the context of Pride Month, like if they were alive right now what their lives would be like and how they would be so very different because they they wouldn't have to operate inside of morality clause for one thing, and they would be able to have greater freedom to be who they are not all freedom because there's already still so much homophobia in Hollywood conscripting actors and actresses to very specific Exactly.

So yes, yeah. Let's not let's not kid ourselves that it's not happening still. No,

it's absolutely happening. Absolutely. The aspect of being a celebrity hasn't changed a lot, except for the ways in which celebrity happens. So back then it was through very specific controlled media. Now, it's just all social media. But celebrity very isolating, yes. If you are a famous person, I always say you just can't go up, you know, up and go to Target. You don't have the freedom to just leave your house and be like, I need to go to Target you. If you're very famous. You cannot do that. If you do TMZ will find you. Yes, exactly. And it will always be when you have like the most bizarre expression and you're taking out your world's biggest pimple that'll be on the side facing the camera that at least that that's what would happen where

you've dressed down so that people don't recognise you. And all of a sudden, you're no makeup pictures and every tabloid or on every screen around the world. That's that's the issue with with celebrity. It's kind of a a monster that has to be fed.

Yes, exactly. And the nature of how celebrity isolates people really hasn't changed a lot in this time period. And I imagine that for Katharine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy, knowing each other's like real selves, if they were queer if they were very close friends. Like I think the Latin term is a more Cara friend of the soul.

I mean, you call it platonic love, but I think it's Yeah, I think it's deeper than that. I think they were romantic. I agree. I think I think he would have given her flowers, for instance. Yeah. You know, it's just a martini. And well, he wanted her to feel special. Um, you could tell Yeah, yeah.

And that's a really beautiful thing, you know, yeah. And that they felt safe with each other. And so they have this incredible monster of celebrity wear. Outside, they have this image and all of this opinion and public information about them, but between each other, they have this place of safety. That's really beautiful.

And you know, Katharine Hepburn in her memoir, she seems to be happy to divulge the affair in that kind of mythic way. But she doesn't go all the way to the sort of the lesbian possibility. So she's basically feeding the received story of Spencer and Hepburn. Yeah. So that's, that's where they are.

And that receives story carries so much weight even now until

Oh, sure. Yep. I mean, if they haven't made a movie of the week, or a Hallmark movie about this affair, I'm sure you know, it's in the works somewhere, someone's written a spec script for it, people could see that they were devoted to each other. And that's a really good way to think about it. That, you know, she would care for him and he would care for her. Because on the set, nobody's really about comfort. They're about getting the work. So you know, if like, like I said, with with guests Who's Coming to Dinner, you know, if she says, you know, Spence is a little tired, you know, can we shoot some other scene right now? Give him a break, or maybe bring him back tomorrow? That's the kind of thing that that I think would be the most public demonstration of their love. If you had eyes to see it.

Yeah. And I always admire the fact that she didn't speak about her relationship with him until after his wife had died. Yes, right. She was very protective of him, but also with his wife, I find that incredibly honourable

because he loved his wife. You know, and this is this is again, one of those issues that you have to take into account. I don't think Katharine Hepburn really had long term relationships with anyone I think she sort of dated around but We're gonna talk about Howard Hughes later and I think she was linked to Howard Hughes. But I think that was more of a kind of a power, wishful thinking kind of relationship that she had with him. There is a there is a story she she was Stephen Sondheim's neighbour in New York. At the end of her life, the brownstone next to Stephen Sondheim, so he was like, you know, I could just go outside and watch her pulling the garbage out for the pickup the next day. It's like, that's gotta be weird, you know? So, but he thought it was thrilling and I'm sure she appreciated him when when she found out that he was a genius. No, I mean, who wouldn't? Yes. And Katharine Hepburn tended to celebrate people of good, creative genius. She wanted to work with the best

and she was a very strong, very steel willed person, which is hard to be at at any age at any era.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

We're going to pause right there. We're gonna pause the movie and the scandal and we will be back tomorrow with yet another old Hollywood scandal with our fabulous guest Dr. Moshe

Well, that was a fascinating story, especially for someone who doesn't know much about how I like I know Katharine Hepburn as Cate Blanchett playing Katharine Hepburn I because I saw the aviator and I really enjoyed it but so I don't actually know any of these people are like their movies for the most part, which makes me feel like I need to go see them now because they

sound really interesting. They're gorgeous movies. Yeah, they but they are and like I said, everything repeats right. Everything does repeat concealing behind a public narrative or manufactured persona it's yell repeating cycle I find it absolutely fascinating.

I'm so excited for tomorrow. I can't wait for for this next door. I'm

so excited. And everyday this week, we are going to be exploring celebrity because it's going to be so interesting. Please come back with us seriously, this week is going to be amazing.

I can't wait. I can't wait. And if you have any fun celebrity stories if you want to treat us as demonic because we are very into that. Please send an email to lovestruck daily at Frolik dot media I've like I really mean it please send us email. We really love it. Or you can follow us on Instagram and Twitter, which we would also really love and the best way to support us if you enjoyed this episode or anything we do. Please please please leave us a review. It is so important to making sure that we can continue to bring you stories like this.

Our researcher is Jesse Epstein. Our editor is Jen Jacobs. We are produced by Abigail steckler and little Scorpion studios with executive producer frolic media. This is an iHeartRadio podcast.

We wish you a very old timey happy ever after. I'm in love with that I'm in love with you. I'm in love with you