[35] The Two Ways of Viewing Meditation – with Andrew Holecek
1:04AM Nov 30, +0000
Speakers:
Andrew Holecek
Keywords:
meditation
dream
mind
fear
practice
simply
bit
people
pain
day
memory
arise
absolutely
openness
question
talk
fundamentally
relationship
view
teachings
In attempt to do some mindful eating, it's not easy to do mindful eating right. It's actually an interesting exercise, you know? Who was it? Jon Kabat Zinn remember when he was doing this thing with Bill Moyers got his to get back there 1015 Even 20 years ago. He was just starting to launch his MBS RFA and he had this raisin eating exercise which is really pretty good. I'm actually do that sometimes in my retreats either with an m&m or something, just as a way to pay attention to how mindlessly we generally eat, right? Just this insatiable appetite to simply just consume. And so my mindful eating is it's not a bad deal. Not a big deal. So anyway, if you're new to what we do here, Monday nights, we do this ongoing meditation thing. As a way to work with developing awareness and acidity and the way is I often talk about the way it connects with all lucid dreaming. doctrinal meditation thing is that it's basically a way to introduce you to practices during the day, that are correlative to the nuances and the subtlety of the mind as it's revealed when we sleep and drain and it very similar to what happens according to the wisdom traditions, actually, when we die, same kind of thing. But we have a great capacity with these daily practices of lucidity. Because remember, lucidity is just a code word for awareness to really work with these really subtle dimensions as a way to become familiar with them as they're introduced in the nocturnal arena. And so what I want to do since this is a little bit different from our other kinds of venues formats, we're going to sit for just a few minutes. And then I want to talk to you a little bit today about the two different ways to look at meditation altogether. And then read to you I think last last week I read what I think is a pretty compelling little riff by compare MPJ and I wanted to share something else from him. Some of you may actually notice recognize this particular clip, quite famous. And it'll be a platform for what I want to talk about. But as a way to kind of just and out and also, if you may be new, this is a chance to ask questions. If we can keep them more in the kind of the meditation arena that's great, but you can pretty much ask almost anything that's related to the Sun lucidity business. And so there a couple questions that came in that were awesome. I will address those the written ones, but you can already start to think about something if you want to ask if you can do it in check column, or better yet, through the reactions bar raise your hand and that way I can draw behind you. And we can actually discuss it. But before we do all this, let's just go ahead. It's a wonderful thing to do to really it's the only game in town. This meditation business. Really when you think about it. Now I invite you to actually do this. You're always working with your mind whether you know or not always. And so the issue do, do we work with our minds directly? With things like meditation or indirectly through life experience, which is really when mind works us we don't really work with my mind works us. And so I really invite you as a type of contemplation inquiry to look into your life deeply and see if in fact it's not true that it doesn't matter what you're doing. You're always working with your mind may not look at it in this kind of so called Clinical spiritual sense, but every time you walk to the fridge to get something every time you go to the grocery store every time you do anything it's always impelled propelled by some mental content, some thoughts some emotion, whatever and so really, we're, we're led around like you know the proverbial carrot on the end of stick always just being led by the mind. And so, let's take just a few minutes I usually practice with my eyes open because I'm facing point blank in this camera in the screen. I close my eyes for a bit and let's just take a few minutes to settle the space gather the space and then I'll run a little bit of commentary about the two major ways of looking at meditation period.
The practice of course that we do that provides the infrastructure of all the meditations is this practice of mindfulness, presence. Pay attention to body and breath as a way to root yourselves in the present moment, using the natural wisdom of your body, right so we'll go ahead and do this for a few minutes just to kind of settle the space and then I'll say a few comments.
Perhaps one of the most common misunderstandings around meditation is that somehow thoughts or problematic thought to the enemy? Oh, if I could simply get rid of my thoughts then I could meditate then I could be spiritual the thoughts are never the problem. Thoughts are simply the natural radiance natural play of your mind
can do is refer to Leela Tibetans talk about Rolpa play
so therefore, we should never try to stop the play of our mind. That's too tight
but we are in data to do is establish a non reactive relationship. It's my thoughts
my thang calm and then let them go.
Turns on one gal Rinpoche says that we should be a good host good hostess.
In this case means laying down a welcome mat on your mind allowing whatever to arise to arise.
But also remind your guests about the exit sign
many people unfortunately have a somewhat adversarial relationship to the contents of their mind trying to pin things down trying to control.
On one level you could say that we control the mind with space.
Pay attention to body and especially breath in a certain sense we mix our minds with space
in that space, thoughts emotions mental content, self liberates embed best openness
you can also maintain this type of relationship in a witnessing lucid dream which is the type of lucid dream where you simply watch the play of your dreams without engaging the dream repressing it, rejecting it simply witness like watching a movie. The play of your mind in the dream arena.
By relating to the contents of our mind in this witnessing capacity
you could say a type of exorcism takes place
riffing on what Nietzsche once said when he learned he said we are possessed by that which we feel we possess
an unexamined way we feel we possess our thoughts but in the untamed untrained mind, our thoughts possess us as we identify with them get lost in them. Go non lucid in them. And this of course is why we suffer just kind of in dark and in burdened view.
Were the untamed mind is led helplessly victim
the display of its contents of thoughts and emotions
I personally find this more playful, spacious, accommodating relationship to be tremendously helpful.
Simply allow whatever is arising to arise
the practice is not to indulge the stick to elaborate to proliferate to get carried away or otherwise to go by loosen that's the practice
so for cautious and we look at the spectrum of development, from dirty to divinity from beast to Buddha
the kind of low end of the spectrum the mind is extremely sticky, attaches to everything proliferates. reify solidifies This is the in darkened view. The Emberton view are weighted down by the contents of our mind
but at the very highest standards were the bodhisattvas and the Buddha's abide. That's the exact same mental content can arise but now the mind is so big so vast that it has virtually no impact
same contents vastly different relationship
we can't really essentially control what arises in mind yes briefly perhaps in moments of intense concentration.
What we really can control and are invited to work with is relationship.
or indirectly I find this instruction to be supremely helpful in moments of what I previously called insomnia but now I simply relate to as kind of a rich display of my mind in the middle of the night. My mind just goes a little ballistic. How cool is that? Sit back, lie back and simply watch the show
and sooner or later the winds stay down the energy exhausts.
dropped back into sleep so instead of wrestling with my mind, which only makes it worse sit back and just watch the show
So what I wanted to talk a little bit about are the two ways to look at meditation relative way in a more absolute way. And this applies really to all the different practices of which there are many right the more kind of relative conventional way which is completely valid is that when we engage in these practices, we're training the mind in this regard is really, really fundamentally no different from playing the piano, golf, tennis any other activity. The more you do it, the better you get.
While this approach is completely valid a little bit definitely more conventional. It does have some limitations. One is that it's insidiously implies quality of duality. That I have to acquire these particular qualities of steadiness. Openness for if you're doing that to my tree Tomlin, kindness, compassion, all these noble qualities. And as valid as that is again, it does have the somewhat important limitation which becomes really important. The more advanced meditations and so the more unconventional way of course is that these qualities of mind the qualities of stability, mindfulness, kindness, compassion, insight, all the things that we work with and all these different meditations, these are actually inherent qualities of the mind, they're already there. They've simply been obscured, covered with these defilements the term is adventitious like dust right? Something that is not inherent to and so this is a really fundamental shift in important one that can change the charter of the way we relate to meditation that all the things we're fundamentally trying to cultivate this level of, we're literally trying to dis cover them, uncover them. They're already there. And this is why the highest levels, allegedly of the most advanced meditations, the instructions are unbelievably simple. It's very interesting Maxim, for those of you who've been on the path, may notice is that the more advanced the practice gets, the simpler it gets, the less there is to say. And so one of the most fundamental irreducible instructions, truly is just simply relaxation. Just open and relax. Open and relax. And all these natural golden qualities will reveal themselves.
And so this may seem like oh, wow, these are really pretty mutually exclusive ways to approach it right? Geez, Geez, why one way says this, and the other way says that can't have it both ways. Well, sure. You can. You can you can relate to meditation in both ways. Don't get stuck in kind of Aristotelian ways of thinking. Either or these are the we want to replace either or with and you can you can engage both but working with a more absolute level. Meditation will allow you to a couple a couple things. One is this will help you understand why the results of meditation can occur somewhat quickly. And this is where the stuff is different. This is you know, this approach is really different from learning how to play the piano or tennis. I mean, I consider my piano forever. I'm not going to get any better at it. If I don't practice. I can stand on the tennis court on the driving range. I'm never going to get better at tennis or golf. If I don't engage in it. So this is a major difference between traditional proceeds in the meditation procedures. I can simply sit in meditation like company, which is that I think I mentioned this even last week. Simply by taking the proper posture and meditation. Sooner or later you will find yourself meditating. And so this is one reason and there's some very interesting studies coming out, showing that as little as like 17 minutes a day of meditation. This is why the results can occur quite quickly, almost disproportionate because you're not acquiring anything and you're not really absolutely level. Cultivating anything that's not already inherently there. And so if you just park the clouds remove the dust. These particular qualities of the heart mind are already there. And that's why some people can have really rapid progress and you see the sometimes even to the contents of the dream I in the context of the dream I've often shared stories. Now I've had some of these experiences myself where you can be really radically, irrevocably change transformed. One night in one night in one dream because you can have a kind of a cut through a breakthrough experience. You will simply Park the clouds parenthese long enough where these massive radiant qualities of mind will be revealed. And so I find this really particularly helpful as we go along the path that yes, for sure, especially on the front end. Instead on the cushion. There's this kind of manual labor thing even Trump probably talked about it the manual labor that effort, effort, effort, completely 100% valid. But eventually you will come to realize especially when you start doing these more so called advanced practices like Mahamudra absorption in the Tibetan tradition, manual teachings, that is quality of simply openness and relaxation, fundamentally, that's the irreducible instruction. So I wanted to share this is quite a famous quote, some of you will recognize this. This is from a somewhat famous piece that trova mache wrote with Brixton Shippo, who's a wonderful individual. I met him in London about five years ago. He's a real, really beautiful human being he was one of the first students in England of Trumper, which is And together, they penned some somewhat remarkable short, really pithy writings. And this one's called The Way of Maha tea, which is another way of talking about Xhosa. And so this is again pretty lofty set of teachings. But on one level, also extremely simple. Ironically, that's what makes them difficult. They're almost too simple. And so this is what this particular quite famous line has to say. And then I'll run a little commentary on it.
Since all things are naked, clear and free from obscurations there is nothing to attain or to realize there is nothing to attain or to realize this in itself is an amazing statement. That not only do we try to attain stability with shamatha insight with the passion, compassion with Tong land Maitri with the meta practices. But even in the larger sense, for those of you who are somewhat spiritually predispose, we aspire to attain enlightenment right? Well on one level that particular kind of aspiration for attainment can backfire. Because how can you attain something you already have, how can you attain something you already are, and so on one level at the most advanced levels and one of the reasons I'm sharing this with you is this is a little bit of the stuff I'm talking about in Mexico that in these retreats are having and I'm going to be gone for two weeks, I think on Saturday. So these are some of the things that I'm going to be riffing on down there. So I figured I would just share this with you. This kind of what's on my plate these days, is that even the notion of the path is questionable here a path to wear. So my level of evil again, Trump James said this at the highest levels. Striving striving itself is the only obstacle. So even the notion of path becomes questionable path to get there. And sometimes because I like to play with where as well, it's a path to Nowhere or break that word apart. Nowhere is now here. It's a path to here. So that's why you get things like in the Course of Miracles journey, without distance or journey without goal all these sorts of notions that fundamentally really, really what we're looking for and this is the this is the essence of the non dual traditions. This is what makes them non dual. Is that what you're actually trying to attain you already have? And so therefore, the issue becomes one of what recognition like it says on the Tibetan Book of the Dead over and over and over, repeated I don't know how many times recognition and liberation are simultaneous. This is amazing statement. Recognition and liberation are simultaneous. So fundamentally as you progress along the path, you may have already seen this you will discover that these really simple not simple doesn't mean easy. These really simple principles apply. So only read this line again and then I'll say a little bit more. Continue with his refine it. says all things are naked, clear and free from obscurations. When they when he means naked here, naked of the clothing of all our habits, all our patterns, all our hopes, fears, amputations, projections. That's what he means by naked. That's why the deities that represent this highest level of teaching are always depicted unquote naked. They represent this kind of bare awareness. There is nothing to attain or realize it's already here. This is what makes a non theistic tradition and not the instruct tradition. This is what makes a non dual tradition non dual So then here's this genius of instruction here the everyday practice is simply to develop a complete acceptance with Tara Brock, I'll be running some commentary. As I say, Tara Brock talks about she's written about radical acceptance the everyday practice is simply to develop a complete acceptance and openness to all situations and emotions and to all people. This is interesting because my favourite definition of meditation these days is what habituation to openness. everyday practice is simply to develop complete acceptance and openness to all situations and emotions and to all people. experiencing everything totally without mental reservations and blockages. So no one never withdraws or centralizes on to oneself. This is an amazing teaching. It's it condensed than these three or four lines is really the pith instruction. Simply allow yourself to be open, radically accepting to whatever arises.
And then paying attention to this quality of contraction, how it is that we're always almost, you know, just constantly, constantly referencing contracting everything back to Central Headquarters. Back to me, a contraction which I've mentioned in some other program, contraction, which actually generates the very sense of me, actually generates the very sense of headquarters. There isn't a there isn't a set I had central headquarters. Contraction creates the illusion. So experiencing everything totally without mental reservations, nor blockages. So that one never withdraws or centralizes to oneself. So I find this instruction to be really quite seminal. So I'm going to read it one more time. I think if we're doing the auto transcription thing, you'll be able to get it from there. The everyday practice is simply to develop a complete acceptance and openness, starting with your own mind. That's what you do when you work with your mind. Complete radical acceptance of openness to whatever arises. And then by natural extension, to all phenomena to others to the world right. Openness to all situations, all mental content, all emotions into all people everything. experiencing everything totally without mental reservations and blockages so the one never withdraws. Or centralizes oneself. This is a marvelous teaching, in my estimation to really ponder deeply because again, this comes this comes from the Nima approach right? There are four schools of Tibetan Buddhism. And the Ning Mo's the old school literally that's what it means. The highest set of teachings in that tradition are these teachings and they reduced to these types of incredibly simple, we get that easy, incredibly simple instructions. And perhaps you have discovered or you will, that the radical truth of these sorts of things, these sorts of teachings has tremendous power, tremendous applicability. So that's my little running comment. Terrific. Today I'm going to start are a couple of really nice questions that were written. So I'm going to start with those and then I see some hands coming up, which is great. And so we can chat about there some other things. So here's there's a couple that came in. So here's one from good to get a little less there's some there were some discussion about fear. Yes, one of my favorite topics. Of course, fear can be crippling. But doesn't it also provide a kind of break that can prevent us from acting stupid, reckless, or without adequate preparation? I often think of courage as fear that's been overcome. So what what is a bigger what you're talking about here is just spot on. And this is why again, I didn't do a complete refund this last time. For those of you who are interested in this a little bit more deeply. I did a program I think I have it on my main site, working with fear and anxiety in an uncertain world where I talk a ton about this topic. By the way, work with is married and you're alluding to it absolutely spot on. Yes, fear can be crippling, but it has a place right. So the way to work with fears from an integral perspective. This is why I'm such a fan of integral approaches. That fear definitely has a place. I mean, if we didn't have it at the biological, evolutionary level, we wouldn't be here talking about the nature of fear, we would have never evolved to this particular point. So we need fear to evolve to this kind of egoic level. We still need it in order to jump out of the way on that buses company or wholesome fear to be wearing a seatbelt. So fear fear absolutely, positively has a place but the issue is keeping it in that place. Because what happens is and this is what makes it so bloody interesting is because this this fear reflex is so burned into our even our genetic legacy literally into a hardwired into our system into our DNA. What happens is this biological imperative supersedes this boundaries, and then comes into usurp all these kind of spiritual trajectories and that's where the real issue comes into play. And that's where it why it's so difficult to work with this stuff because it's so deeply embedded.
That's why fear is such a colossal topic. So the way to work with this is an understanding of the appropriate place of fear that has a place absolutely. But you have to keep it in that place. Because otherwise it will just dominate and kick you off the path. I have to think of courageous fear that's been overcome Yeah or fear this been seen through so to remember they talked a lot about this to their real fearlessness is not getting rid of fear it's going through your fear understanding it. Don't get rid of it. Understand what it is. also talked about hope and fears cousins Yeah, can I elaborate on that? Yes, I can. Um, yeah, so hope and fear are the parents of that's my languaging of what are called the eight worldly dharmas, the eight worldly dimers the eight worldly constraints are basically eight principles styles of inappropriate relationship based on hope and fear. So these are praise and blame, shame and fame, pleasure and pain loss and game they're setting off in pairs like that we hope for one and fear for the other. And so hope and fear then therefore create they're the parents of these eight worldly dharmas where fundamentally we hope for comfort we fear discomfort we hope for me fill in the blank. So we Tang between these two they give birth to basically look deeply into your life and see if not these these eight worldly concerns in fact dominate your entire life they do they really do. How does hope different from aspiration well I think for me they'll get a hope different some aspiration because hope is really sticky, raspy aspirations in me for me more open ended. Yes, I can still have that kind of quality. So there's a near enemies all this stuff right. So for me hope, you know The Audacity of Hope and all that right. can get a little sticky. When you're grasping aspiration you still have this best sense of hopeful quality, but it's not your mind isn't just so sticky. You're not that crazily. invested. Okay. And there was another question about fear. So I'm going to get to that one as well here. Okay. Oh, got to get the other ones here. There. And with me Okay, from Wendy. Okay. Oh, here's one about pain who another woman okay. I am reading a love of the world. What a great book. That's me. She didn't say that. He says the pain is just the label. This is so not true. Pain is a way our body communicates with us. There was good pain growing pain. paren warning pain Don't touch this hot pan paren and inflammation, pain, cramps and headaches. To ignore pain is not to recognize the preciousness of being so free and all favorite. Okay. So, um, I agree with part of what you're saying and I disagree with part of what you're saying Wendy? He says that pain is just the label. This is not true. It is totally true. It's totally true. Take a look at this thing. Called pain. It's simply a label. Maybe it's nomenclature, maybe what you're saying is just a semantic issue. But it is absolutely positively just a label. A word that we append on to a particular sensation. It's basically nothing more if you if you look at pain and this is where I'm I'm reading a whole book on this stuff. So I'm really into it. If you take a very close look at pain, you can deconstruct it. Pain is a construct. That doesn't mean that phenomenological first hit is not that's not a construct. That's the display that's this raw sensory awareness to which we append the relationship unwanted to which we further append the label pain and if we don't really relate to that then we generate suffering but all that is all absolutely positively it is just a label for sure. 100% But what you're saying that's what I don't agree with you Randy but what I do agree with you is the rest pain is our body way of communicating with us again pain like fear. Oh my goodness, it has a colossal place right? I mean, I I work in the pain business. I as a retired dental surgeon, I know a lot about pain.
I you know yeah. I've worked with it literally for decades at a clinical level. And then to my kind of psycho spiritual practices and whatnot in those dimensions. Pain as a way of it communicates with us absolutely positively in those rare instances when people don't have those receptive capacities. You know, they don't communicate. There's rare neurological disorders where people can't feel pain. That is super dangerous. So just like here, we need pain. Right? But again, deconstruct this thing called pain. It is it it's just a word. It's just a label on top of an unwanted experience. On top of simply that something is irreducibly nothing more than raw sensory awareness. That's it intense raw sensory awareness. That's all the pain is. There is good pain. absolutely positively. Warning pain 100% agree with you and inflammation pain so this part Wendy, I totally agree with you. The first part I don't agree with you. To ignore pain is to not recognize the process to being so for your favorite I absolutely agree with you. So I think I think we're probably on the same page 20 But it is really anyway, that's where I got that it is absolutely positively just a label. But that doesn't you know, this is this is the important thing. irreducibly there is some thing there it's just not what we append it to be. It's not paying in this conventional sense. It's just intense raw sensory awareness. Okay, let me see if there's anything else Oh, yeah, one more thing about oh, no, we already already got that one. Hold on. Let me get rid of that. Then. I'm just playing it through some of the questions that came in. So give me one second so don't miss any. Yeah, there was that one. When I say okay, cool. So I think that's it for the questions that were piped in. And I see a couple of hands. And while while the hands are being raised and addressed, I'll also look in the chat column. So I'm Hilary. We can unmute you and perfect. Ask away.
Hi, Andrew. I had a very strange thing happened in a lucid dream and I was wondering if I could share it with you and get your take on it. Yeah, sure. Okay. Um, yeah. So, in my dream, my dog appeared, but my dog has passed. So right away, I pinged on the fact that it was a lucid dream. And I did, I did, I did a state check that I've done. I've been doing this day check every day for maybe three years. In my waking state where I turn, turn my hand and look up my palm. Oh, nice. Nice. Okay. So but in the stream, I turned my hand and I saw my palm. And right away, Twig. This isn't right. I shouldn't be seeing my palm and I just kind of shrugged and I thought, Well, my dogs here. I'm just going to join my dog and the dream carried on.
So quick question. So at that point, were you already lucid? You're lucid because of the hand thing or lucid because of the dog. That's dead thing.
I was lucid because of the dog. Yeah. Okay. And then I did a state check. But then when I but when I turned my hand, I saw my palm. And I twigged This isn't right, something's wrong. So I'm just wondering if like, what you think is going on there? Like how is that possible? I'm thinking I wasn't I wasn't loose. I wasn't actually lucid.
So I need some clarification. So when you've done this previously, when you've done the state check previously what happens when you've done it previously, so it's not clear to me.
Okay, um, I've only had one this dream, um, where I turned my hand and I might my palm turned into book like I turned my hand in a book appeared. Okay, okay, so that and I was so excited I woke up I'm so i That's why I was so surprised in my dream that apple that I turned my turn my hand and I saw my palm.
Yeah. Yeah. And so Okay, so just just again, to make sure I understand. So when you're doing this now, like during the day is the state check? Yes. You're turning it in. You're obviously seeing your palm right? Yes,
yes. Are you doing this? Yes. And I mean, that's my usual usual state check in my waking state, and then I'm doing it several times throughout the day.
Yeah. Yeah, well, you know that that's not one of the more reliable state checks in my opinion for just this reason. Because on one level by by doing it here, I'm on level you're actually somewhat creating the habit that you could actually do that in the dream. And you would see what you saw this last time. So I'm not terribly surprised that that actually happened for you. Okay. So what I might recommend is is, again, the dreams like there's so many different kinds, right? What I may recommend is doing another kind of dream sign where it's going to be absolutely unequivocal. Where you know, if you if you want to do the hand thing, a really common one, and I've done this, during the day, just trying to put your finger through the palm, right? There's others. My all time favorite is the jumping up one. I mean, that's my goal, too. I do this frequently throughout the day. And then I do it in my dreams, right. And the idea there is, hey, if I'm if I'm going for a walk, and I skip and I come back down, I'm awake. If I do that exact same gesture in a dream 99% of the time, I just keep going. There's other permutations and sometimes they come down and go through the Earth. But I would just simply choose perhaps a different dream sign or stay check I should say during the day. That is a little bit more unequivocal because because this one to me, I can see why that would have happened because on one level, you're doing it, you're you're actually doing that during the day. And so particularly that happened can then transpose into the night. So, you know, part of it is just kind of the playfulness of the whole thing to that. Sometimes you might have all these aspirations to to transpose some of these daily activities into your nighttime arena, and then something really whacked out or goofy like this happens. So I don't think it's a terribly big deal. I think it's really kind of playful actually. But in terms of like remedying it, if you somehow see is problematic, I will simply probably transition into a more unequivocal state check. You see,
well, that's why I don't know if you remember, but he weeks back I'm the person that that put in the chat the idea of, is it possible to have a false lucid dream and you said, you didn't know what I meant by a false dream? Yeah. It's almost like I'm dreaming that I'm lucid, but I'm not really lucid. And I the reason I say that is, since I've joined nightclub I've had what I guess are our three lucid dreams, but I bet for example, a dream character will say you're in a dream. And let's say I said cool, and I can fly jump up but then nothing happens. I come back, I come back down. Like I can't seem to manipulate anything in the dreams.
No, don't worry about that. There comes a time if that's what you mean by a false lucid dream that that makes sense to me. And I would agree with that. Okay, that makes sense. Okay. But you know, the ability or lack thereof to work with changing the dream content that just comes with practice? That's not easy, right? That's why we've got the stages okay. So on one level, that's also why I've talked about like, the witnessing lucid dream, where you can just be completely lucid and just watch the whole thing without changing it. That's it. That's a wonderful way to work with you this in your hands. And so the ability and again this is dreams are truth tellers, right. So we may not always want to hear the truth that they reveal, but our inability to actually change the contents of our of our dreams is revelatory. It really shows the power of our habitual patterns and how the mental content tends to just kind of take control. And so we shouldn't wait out about that. Certainly, we should celebrate it's like well, well, it's amazing how my mind controls me how I can't really change my mind. But eventually through meditation, through perseverance through playfulness, you will absolutely positively start to do it. And again, working with some of these three Naga stages doing some of what you would do in the nighttime, doing it during the day, literally changing dream content during during the day. That's another way to work with it. So both of these are, you know, just they're interesting. They're fascinating. Ways to both measure quality of one's dream experience. And again, using this moniker of dream dog is the measure of the path. Okay.
It's interesting because my other lucid dream um, I went around knocking on things and and everything was like so solid like, and I made that comment in the dream. I think this is just like my waking state, everything so solid. So it's almost as if I'm thinking it's almost like I'm thinking that I don't have the ability to, to to manipulate or it's almost like my dream states like my waking state. Do you know what I mean?
Totally. Well, it is. That's the key. It is. It is like the waking state until you start to engage in these literally transformative practices, literally. So that that's why that's why we can learn so much dreams, they there. They really absolutely just reveal your habitual propensities. And so eventually again with increasing lucidity, increase them in relationship to your own mind. 100% guaranteed you will slowly start to be able to transform things. It's just that at these initial stages, the the kind of the momentum of power these habits enormous Lea I've shared with people. I'm not sure if you heard the story, but when I started doing like stage one, stage two, Dream Yoga stuff. I couldn't do it. You know, I mean, I'd be totally lucid in the dream. Come up to the dream. All the instruction is you know, like, put my hand through the dream wall. I'm sitting there. I got worried. I know this is a dream. I know I'm dreaming. I still can't put my hand through the wall. Because of the power of my habit. I solidifying reifying that wall. So it reveals those particular patterns. And so the key here this is my dream job is a little bit advanced because it takes a slightly advanced attitude to accept these kinds of truths. It's like holy crap, and I'm pretty solid, right? My patterns are I work with this stuff all the time. I still have dreams where Sometimes I wake up and it's like, oh, man, I thought it was like getting somewhere on the path. Right? I'm just a loser. Last night's dream again, I do this all tongue in cheek. Last night's dream just revealed something like oh crap, I still got big time. Addiction to that particular habit. And so that's why it takes a slightly advanced attitude to look at this with a whimsy a little bit of childlike Wednesday, instead of like, oh geez. And just need to just play with it. It's like well, it's the revelatory nature. This makes these practices somewhat advance. No, they they're going to show you stuff. And sometimes people don't want to do that. Just
one quick question. And that is do you think it's a good idea then if I just mix up my state checks like Yes. I've always been doing the turning my palm. But maybe I said become habituated to that now. Exactly. switch things up.
Exactly. It well said well said Yeah. So it's always helpful to have more than one or two in your toolkit. And so even though I do the jumping one up, jumping up and down one I do the palm one I do a bunch of them. And so it is in fact helpful to kind of mix it up a little bit that way. Definitely.
Okay, great. Thanks so much. Appreciate it. Totally. Okay.
Okay. All right, primed us. we'll unmute you. Hello, sir, we put up
sir. Hannah, wanted to dig a little deeper into a comment. You made that you know, the Enlightened nature is already there and that we have to discover it. And, you know, my question is, well, what is it that prevents me from discovering it and and it's more than just a method or technique. I mean, there's, and that brings up the whole issue of the path of accumulation right. You have to have the karmic causes and conditions to progress, or is that too rigid way of thinking?
No, no, no, initially, you work when you work at that level. But let me paint the question back to you. What do you think? What's your first step?
Well, I'm I'm just robotically repeating what I read. I'm not allowed to think I'm just a student of the tradition, right.
Oh, Sharon. Pooja, we have to demote you from sorry, put your status where you go. I put you as fearless, right. Okay. So what keeps us it's a little bit connected to the previous question. What keeps us is the power of habituation, the force of darkness, the force of the unconscious mind. There are a lot of ways to talk about what keeps us from that truth. But one of the most powerful ones that has just tremendous applicability and explanatory power is just just the raw habit of looking at things otherwise, we just don't see things that way. So that's why you can that's that's why you need both paths, right? That's why the absolute if you walk both Absolute One foot relative to one foot, you work with both because if you put everything in the absolute basket that has its own set of problems. In fact, Trooper Michio Suzuki Roshi, a lot of these other great masters when they first came to the west, they they approached everything with this more absolute level deal, but the kind of Nike thing, right, just do it. Well, people couldn't just do it. Right. So they got the they got the hang of it. After a while. They said, Well, this isn't working. So then they introduced the relative. So here's the way I work with it personally is you have the view of the Absolute. That's what the right view is so critically important. You have that view. But you can you can talk until you're blue in the face, you can read this incredible quotation 1000 times and you have actually it will have some transformative power, but it's not going to really fundamentally get rid of this, this ocean of of habituation. And so therefore, we have all the relative methods, all the methods you talked about the path of accumulation, purification practices, all the minerals, all the countless incredible skillful means that the great masters realize due to the power of karma. So when you're talking about habit, we're talking about karma. Incredibly powerful force. And so therefore, the way I work with it from Das is I hold the absolute view and then I work with you know what a pod was above his head, your view should be as lofty as the heavens, but your conduct your action should be as fine as barley powder. So it's always joining Heaven and Earth, maintaining the right view, and then realizing the incredible force of karma because otherwise you get this whole new age thing this whole a lot of these again, I won't name names, but there's I could probably named 10, so called Westerners in western masters who've had these kind of breakthrough experiences that then teach on these absolutist ik approach of absolute artistic ways. And to me, it's just like, Okay, well to their Sangha, like get get back to me in 10 years, like tell me how that's working out for you read theoretically. Yes, totally, theoretically. Just relax, open. That's it. Right? But, hey, come back in 10 years, and let me let me know how that's working out for you. It's two absolute. So then you have all the relative stuff the path of accumulation, the path of juncture, all the purification step all the stuff that you know about, so you work with both, again, this kind of integral integrated approach, because otherwise, one without the other is a little bit imbalanced, in my opinion, too much relative without view, right view a little bit blind, too much absolute without the relative little bit ineffectual. So we're working with both
right view, right understanding of the of the three primary places, you know, aggression aversion, I'm sorry, passion, aggression, and ignorance. Yeah, to the right view, right. Understanding addresses ignorance. And then the, the method that you know, all the practices are for the for the first to the passion aggression,
mostly, mostly, yes. Yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah, yeah. All right. Cool. Thank you back. Okay. Hey, Steven.
Hey, Andrew, I want to I want to start with sharing a success. I had my first extended period of lucidity during a dream. Yeah, it was really late a little bit. I was still felt limited. But um, after your explanation to Lori makes me feel a lot better that I wasn't the master of my dream university media thing. Right. No kidding. So what I've been working with recently has been a lot on dream recall. And I have this experience that arises very often that it feels as if right before I wake up, I am having this dream review period where I am recalling the totality of my dreams for those night for the night. Well, nice. And but then what the problem is, is that it's now x is my short term memory and when I wake up, all I have is the recollection that I did remember my dream? Yeah. And that can lead to frustration arising. Because now I know that I dreamt, I know that I remembered my dream. But now in this present moment, the details are very, very sparse. So I was wondering if you had any kind of comments? Yeah,
first of all, that's super common, you know, and Stephen Colbert talks about why that this evolved from an evolutionary point of view. Because if if we really were like, an equal footing with the memories we had at night, with the memories during the day, until really advanced ages, it's somewhat problematic to conflate those two sets of memories and so therefore, there's this evolutionary thing. I don't know what the numbers are, but there's some studies like within I don't know how many seconds 90% of your dream is pretty much just erased from memory. And so it first of all, again, it's totally normal, but it absolutely positively can be worked with and one is, what their number of things you can do. One is during the day, if you haven't done this, Steven is just paused several times throughout the day. You can either do it randomly or you can do it set to some mnemonic mnemonic memory aid. Turn the lens of your mind back in and say to yourself, Okay, what was I just thinking for the last minute? That's a very simple similar kind of exercise, right? So you want to kind of exercise this is a muscle they actually can be exercised. The other thing of course, is is working more and more and more with good old meditation. I mean, meditation exercises the memory muscle, for sure. In fact, in Tibetan, the word for mindfulness dramma to recollect and so the more you work with meditation, the more you actually cultivate this quality of memory. And I've seen that I've seen this in really gifted translators of people who can just their powers of memory during the day is remarkable. So, memory can absolutely positively be cultivated both retrospective and prospective memory. There are ways to work with that I write about this and to some extent in the Dream Yoga Book. Increasing dream recall that way working with journals and the like. So I'll pause for a second and see if that's helpful. If you want to take this any other way.
Yes, very helpful. Um, do I use a voice recorder to record whatever can arise as soon as I wake up? Yes. Fragments, little details, everything like that. And what I guess what style of meditation would you suggest to kind of flex that a more mindfulness meditation or a more concentrated meditation like a sauna meditation?
Well, I think both are fine but a gold standard upon us it just paying attention to the to the breathing, I mean, anything that's going to bring you back to a reference, body breath candle, Mantra doesn't matter. Okay, anything that's going to do that every time you come back, it's like doing a curl, you know, like you got a 10 pound weight, you're doing a bicep curl. So, practice during that during the day in formal practices. And then of course, fundamentally, the point is drop the training wheels and work with this cultivation of memory all the time, under all circumstances. And you'll find it very interesting. You'll find it that level. Better less and less distracted you are the more mindful you are your memory is directly proportional to that way where your your your memory becomes somewhat absolute, because you're no longer distracted. Period. Distraction is a form of forgetfulness. Recollection is a form of memory. So when we're recollecting to come back to the present moment, that's definitely an exercise of memory. So that those are qualities that can absolutely positively be trained. So any really virtually any, any meditation really almost by definition will have some mindfulness shamatha component. And then there are other things that build upon that but the even the the infrastructure practices are profoundly helpful in this regard. Yeah. Oh, much for sure. Hello, Kimber. Kimberly. I'm looking at the chat calm while she gets
there we go. Hi, how you doing Andrew?
I am good. How are you?
Good. Thank you. Sorry to always come on, but as customer
it's always nice to hear from you.
So I was listening to the Dream Yoga podcast. Number five the other day and you talk about the evolution model. Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. So it kind of ties in with today's talk as well. So there's that and there was also the fact where you were saying how you know, with the meditation where you just lose the openness and the relaxation, that you just kind of need to discover rather than train these already characteristics are already there. And so like, before I even heard of anything about Buddhism and everything. I would just kind of sit and be open and relax and things would come to me where it kind of really confused me for a long time. And it's only through understanding Buddhism and like daily yoga and things like that. That how I've been able to kind of label I suppose my experience and make sense of it. And I just wanted to know like is is that normal for like? Like I feel like the DVDs more like actually came to me more than me striving to generate them. They're more self generated and more was kind of, obviously it's not the exact Buddha's CDs but still has the same characteristics and the same attributes and just, you know, is that normal and I feel like there's always been a fear because thinking that it's abnormal and abnormal. And is that what you're talking about? Like, you have to have a certain kind of maturity for to recognize that absolute truth. So it's kind of like maturing to become less fearful into recognizing that truth of that reality. Because it actually obviously contains a big reality. It's not just the words I'm saying it's, it's another. It's pretty extensive if that's if that's true. Yeah,
so there's a lot there. First of all, normal in relationship to what right? So that's the first question. So who defines normality? Who defines sanity and psychosis? It's all these are all arbitrary. Things are normal in relationship to what metric? It's normal for you. And so that regard, just celebrate that. It's, excuse me, it's definitely not abnormal. Absolutely not. Excuse me. And the other thing that that's really important is anybody at any stage can have authentic glimpses of the natural state of non duality of the total shebang. I mean, anybody? Because again, it is the it is the nature of things. So the question isn't really the experience. The question is relationship to that experience and stability of it. That's what could be that a little bit more advanced. So a baby can have complete high level high state level experience, anybody at any dimension have high state level experience, but then the relationships becomes the issue and so therefore, when this is what I love about the genius of the Buddhist thing, but it's it's also Indian altogether Indic approach, pedagogical approach of understanding, experience and realization that you really need all three you need to understand all three because you can have I speak from very personal experience on this where you can actually have experiences that wouldn't say prematurely, but I think you'll get what I'm saying. You can have experiences without proper understanding. And that can become somewhat problematic. So for instance, for me, when I was in my early 20s, I had this life changing experience for two weeks two weeks that I write about in my introduction to the Dream Yoga Book became really, really a challenge for me because I had the experience before I had the understanding. And that became a real problem because I thought I was going crazy. And so therefore, it's helpful to understand well, just that the power of understanding the necessity of it, in order to relate to the experience properly. Another extreme the other extreme, to this, as we want I alluded to earlier is is again, anybody in the West in the world, let's just pick out the Westerners can have these amazing experiences. And I guess I could name 1020 of these people in the West, who then start their little, whatever, whole spiritual thingies because they've had these colossal experiences, but they don't really have a proper understanding of those experiences. And then that becomes a real issue. So in a certain sense, experience is the linchpin at the center. And so understanding what's happening is super important. That's where teachings traditions, teachers and whatnot can really, really help you. Because otherwise you can get seriously lost and these experiences seriously stuck. And that's not so helpful. So that's even before we get to that was the realization that that's the stability of the experience. So I'll pause and see if this is landing with you but just to repeat, normal in relationship to what it's normal for you. I would celebrate that. And then having these experiences anybody can have them at any point. That's not really the issue. The issue is stability and understanding of those experiences. That's the issue.
Yeah, and I suppose that's just some, you know, I think that's always been the practice is stabilizing. This and integrating it into daily life. Yeah.
That's it. That's it.
Yeah. But then also it. It's actually like the realization that this is true. Like for me to actually accept it as a truth is a very radical change in my reality. Like it's like slipping out of this world basically. And it makes me feel that I'm not going to be alone, but I am in a sense going to be alone. You because
like I feel like you know, for me, sorry. Like, except to get a loan. I feel like I'm gonna be alone.
Yeah, especially because I'm Muslim. So my tradition, the people I live around my circle is far from these kind. of understandings. Not in essence, like Islam, in essence is this. But in practice, it's very far from it. So I feel like I'm gonna be really alone in my like, inner self and not be able to relate really well. Like I'm already like that and I have been like that for a long time, but people just think I'm sick, basically. So but now, like, if I actually accept this as a reality that's gonna just take me further from my kind of normal, everyday life.
Well, is there a problem with it? This is where this is where this is the I mean, you're you're bringing some really important points. To the table you're one is the both the blessing and the promise and the peril of peer pressure. In you will find again, we all have to find our own ways here but you will find that how badly do you want the truth? How are willing are you to give up what's really necessary to Discover the Truth sustained the development and maturity and sometimes what that requires is a little bit painful, because the vast majority of the world is interested in the truth. They're interested in comfort. And so you're going to find yourself perhaps a little bit more and more alone. That's why a nightclub community was established. That's why connecting perhaps with I don't know if you heard my interview with usafa who're from your tradition you know connect with this guy he's amazing. So you may be alone in relationship to the to the center of gravity that you now find your peeps right now. But you can find other people to replace these and this is where it gets a little bit painful, or it can because it's really it's the issue of what to accept and what to reject. And how badly you want the truth or how much you want to just be comfortable and accepted and how many Facebook likes Do you want or how do you you just don't care about that? Kind of thing. So I can only tell you from my own experience, and it's all different from everybody. I look back over 2030 years and I don't I don't mean it's the sound like cold and clinical and uncaring. But I don't really hang out with a lot of people that aren't interested in the truth anymore. I don't have time for it. Life is way too short. And sometimes it's painful. I've lost friendships because that center of gravity doesn't work for me anymore. And so this is why we created my club. This is why you have some guys this is why I have these Pure Land pockets. Where then you realize you're not going nuts. You're really going nuts with a bunch of other nuts like us. And then that just replaces the other family because that otherwise the recidivism you know you're gonna, you're gonna be pulled apart. You're gonna be pulled back into distraction into people just sucking you back into the samsaric wave. Because that is the massive center of gravity in this world these days. And so it's really it's you have to do some real soul searching or how badly do you want the truth? Or is comfort more important for you? I mean, what are you willing to let go of to really wake up? And these are things we all have to work out on our own. I can just simply share with you what I've discovered over decades and some of these are really painful, like the end of my first marriage, losing people that I really, really liked. It's like I'm sorry, you know, I don't have time for it. Life is too short. I'm going to work with stuff that's really you know, I could be dead tomorrow. Who do I want to hang out with? I want to hang out with people that are going to wake me up. So we'll have to find a way but just maybe I can share some things that have worked for me. Okay, awesome.
Thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah,
it was nice to hear from you. Okay, anybody? Anybody else? Take care? There were a couple that came in through the chat. Okay. Yes, he went from Tim here. Would you consider your dream yoga? Lucid dreaming is a form of meditation. Dream Yoga, for sure. Lucid dreaming, maybe Tim. Generally lucid dreaming is a this is one of the things that differentiates lucid dreaming from Dream Yoga. Lucid dreaming a little bit more. Entertainment is a little bit more kind of psychological. This isn't it's not a categorical critique. It's just the situational comment, like how does it fit in? So Dream Yoga, totally meditation, lucid dreaming, it depends. It seems like they are all producing greater awareness. Yes. Lucid dreaming up to a certain point that lucid dreaming isn't related to properly it can be inflated, it can be self aggrandizing, which is like I mentioned, you know, by Carl Jung didn't endorse it. So it develops awareness notions of acidity. But if you're just indulging your mind in a lucid dream, there is no practice in there. That's actually you're practicing bad habits. So that's why Dream Yoga transcends but includes lucid dreaming, okay. All right. Let's see here. And then one more, Myra Oh, yeah. I never heard you say that in a way space as a way to control the mind. Can you elaborate? Yeah, for sure. I mean, one of my teachers, Lopa, Lodore. Jay. He had this really great line. He said he was always talked about swap. I love this, this image swap your mind with space. So sticky Roshi also said that very similar, similar kinds of things. And you know, if you want to control a herd of cattle, don't pack them into a corral give them a pasture. let them roam in vast open space and so this is the type of control at the more advanced levels. Initially, more entry levels there is a there is a semblance of control. When the mind strays, you bring it back and do corral it provisionally bringing it back to body breath, Mantra, whatever some reference, that's a temporary corral. But eventually that falls away, because that's too tight. And then eventually when the mind no, the highest form of liberation is what's called self liberation. Sahaja Yana highest form of liberation. And the liberation takes place on the mind is so big your heart is so big there whatever arises just you have space where your room for it becomes an A goes itself liberates like drawing in water like a campfire sparking the nighttime sky or stuff like falling out hot rock. So that's the the zone Mahamudra teachings talk about that type of control. Quote, unquote, you control the mind was space. I love it. Actually. I think that's really kind of cool. So anyway, probably time to remind everybody. Nice to see you. I am gone. The next two weeks, come down and see me in Mexico. Jeffrey is here next week. Joe is is here the week after that, my dear friends. We're going to meet again I called people again if you want Thursday for the q&a thing. And then again, like I'm offline for the next two weeks after that. So I appreciate your your contributions, your questions, your good hearts, always great to see everybody. Thanks, everybody for showing up. And until next time, not just pleasant dreams. Pleasant, lucid dream. So everybody turns on. This is the totally geeky thing we do. Everybody turns on the camera. Everybody unmute themselves and we'd all this big goofy hug fest thing here okay. Andrew, Andrew Nice to be back. Thank you.