This podcast is brought to you by the Albany Public library main branch and the generosity of listeners like you. What is a podcast? God daddy, these people talk as much as you do! Razib Khan's Unsupervised Learning.
Hey everybody, this is Razib Khan with the Unsupervised Learning podcast. And I am here today with a very special guest, my friend, Sarah Haider, who I've known for a while. So I think we met in the spring of 2017, IRL at South by Southwest. But I didn't know Sarah from you know, she kind of became a social media YouTube sensation for her speaking and speeches in 2016. I just listened to her a lot of random podcast, she just kept showing up. And so she created the Ex Muslims of North America, I think the title there tells you everything you need to know about that. But you know, she comments have a lot of issues besides Islam and secularism and atheism and all those sorts of things. She is from Texas, she has background in philosophy. And I don't think it'll surprise people. She has a background and kind of debate and speaking, when you hear her talk, you know, this is someone that comes naturally I gotta say, it's, you know, she's really a good crowd pleaser. I feel like a lot of the time if that's how I feel. And so, you know, just want to introduce her that way. But, you know, we're gonna talk about various things relate to where she is now, what's happened over the last couple of years. We have done podcasts, I have done a podcast with her before. That was I think 2019. That was a long time ago, pre COVID. The before time. So Sarah, do you want to add anything about your bio that I left out there that might be relevant for the people out there?
No, that was really comprehensive. I'm Impressed.
Oh, I've been stalking you. Yeah, I've been stalking... No, I know you. So you know that all that stuff is relevant. So I want to start out what's going on with EX Muslims of North America. You know, with COVID, I know you guys are doing meetups and other things like that. And so I guess, like to get situate the listener, you know, when you are a person who is from an Islamic Muslim background, leaving the religion can be quite traumatic, you can lose a lot of your personal connections. So there are these groups that kind of they exist to like, catch people. And they formed this new community. I think it's very similar to some of the phenomenon I've seen with Ex Orthodox Jews, I met some of these people, they described some very similar things. You know, most people who are listening to this podcast know that my family is from an Islamic Muslim background, but I don't consider myself an ex Muslim, because I never really believed in the religion too much. So I kind of have like a, you know, kind of an in between relationship, I think to the community and the ex Muslims insofar as I can see where they're coming from and why they are the way they are. But I sm not, I haven't gone through those same sort of things. The same sort of life experiences, since I never really believed in the religion in the first place. Right. So I just want to put that out there. So I guess one thing that I do want you to address, because I don't know too much of this, but it seems like so I follow people like Ali Rizvi and, and you know, Armin Navabi - I'm a patron to their their thing. You know, I follow some of these people online, I'm friendly with them. It seems like the last couple of years, there's been some issues in the ex Muslim community, I don't really know the details. You know, these are people that came together because of their relationship to particular religion, but do they really have anything in common aside from that? And, you know, how has it been with COVID? You know, people can't meet up in real life and the real life connection, especially when they're worried about their identity, and all these other things seem like it would be super important. Can you speak to some of that, Sarah?
Yeah, yeah. Um, so that there's a lot there. So there's, I mean, I'll begin with the work of EXMNA and how that's changed. I mean, initially, we were very much focused on the community. And as we grew as an organization, we started thinking also about, you know, how do we change the atmosphere, you know, as a whole because the communities really, they are this wonderful support system that you know, save lives and we're there for people when they when they need them, but it's really a bandaid.And we wanted to start seeing, you know, how we could change the situation so that there are just fewer people who needed this kind of support system. So we - we started participating in kind of like the public discourse and that's probably when you started to hear about me when I started giving all these talks and we started making an effort in in producing content that that would reach people in highlighting other ex Muslims and we did this like normalizing descent tour that was on campuses and stuff. I did these, a bunch of these mini documentaries, on ex Muslims with, you know, their faces and their names and for the, with the whole purpose of like, getting these people out there and open at a time where there were just so few people who were openly ex Muslim. So all that's evolved, and, and it feels like so long ago to even mention it, because, you know, in internet time, that was forever and ever ago, and really, the ex Muslim community, such as it is, and the movement has grown tremendously. And I do think to some degree, the idea of being ex Muslim has been normalized to to an extent that the communities are not as necessary anymore. So we had EXMNA, don't really, we, that's not like a focus anymore. And we're focusing on trying to get as many of those communities to be independent groups as possible. And we're starting to focus on again, how we can change the broader atmosphere. So more educational resources, producing reports and original research, that kind of thing. As far as the ex Muslim community, I admit, I'm less plugged into it now as - as a mature ex Muslim, I guess. Um, but it feels like it's, it's very dynamic from the outside, there's a lot of young people and you know, I occasionally I'll stumble into like ex Muslim Twitter or ex Muslim, you know, Instagram or all these places. And there's a lot of very young people, they have their own, like conversations and ways of, you know, articulating what's happening with religion, that was exactly how I used to do it back in the day when when I was more active. So it's, it's definitely something that's sort of taken on a life of its own, I think it needs less and less institutional support, because people are sort of building these connections online fairly easily. Now, as far as like a broader movement, I think the ex Muslim movement has fallen prey to the same sort of problems that all online communities have fall into, but also, but but especially the atheism secular movement, which is to say, like, you have to rally around something, you know, a cause, a goal, like what you'd like to see. And then on top of that, there's so many differences and political opinions. I mean, the woke thing is really dividing all kinds of communities everywhere. And I think the ex Muslim community is not, has not been spared, although we have been better about it. Than the atheist community as large which, which, as far as I'm concerned, like, doesn't really exist anymore. Yeah, so what was? What was the? what was... ?
yeah, no, I mean, I think I think you hit most, you hit most of the the salient points. I'm kind of curious, why would you say the ex Muslims are better at the, you know, quote, unquote, better at the woke stuff than...
Better in comparison, right. So it's been compared to I think the other as far as I'm concerned, all left leaning organizations have just been, you know, catastrophically distorted. And of course, all "right", quote, unquote, "all" not all, but but many have been distorted by woke dynamics, and will politics. As far as the ex Muslim groups, I've noticed, it's, it's not as if there hasn't been an effect there has, and I've seen it personally. But I don't think it is as intense because as ex Muslims, we were always in a very bizarre place, in terms of, you know, our politics and the intersections of where we were. So I think we were more comfortable as as a movement of being disliked, or at least more comfortable with taking a position that is unpopular. And that is not the case with the with, you know, your standard ex Christian atheist who, you know, leaves Christianity and then adopts this sort of atheism and humanism that really is this. It's this post Protestantism even right ? Like and they just adopt all these politics, and they fall in line with their views. Exactly. There's no tension anywhere. But with ex Muslims. That's never been the case. And so I think that that's allowed us to be a little bit more independent still and to be. I mean, we're not immune from woke politics, of course, but I think we are much better about it.
Would you say? So, you know, a hypothesis that I would present is x Muslims, just because of the nature of Islam today, and how they treat apostates, not just necessarily like the legal like, okay, like death penalty, blah, blah, the usual stuff. But just like the social ostracism and the consequences, ex Muslims tend to be highly disagreeable. And I don't think that that is as good of a fit with some of the social justice, you know, movements norms, like, what do you think about that hypothesis?
Yeah, yeah, I think that's, um, that spot on, obviously doesn't apply to every single ex Muslim, but it applies to many and, and certainly everyone just has to brace themselves for it. When you decide to be a little bit more open as an ex Muslim, you're going to get a certain degree of hostility, you're going to get the - you know, the labels that we've heard a million times, when it comes to anyone that pushes back against woke understanding of the world that you're a bigot in some way or racist in some way. So we all we get it when we've gotten it before. So, you know, once you've been treated that way before, it's even if you're not necessarily a super disagreeable person, you've sort of seen the pattern. And you now know - you can kind of see it for what it is.
Yeah, yeah. Or you see the similarities to what you've seen before. So to speak. Yeah. Speaking of what you've seen before, you know, I guess like when I kind of got to know you all those years ago, you know, we talked about various people in the firmament, you know, like Richard Dawkins, and Sam Harris, these sorts of people, you know, of the, you know, horsemen of the new, you know, atheism, a Hitchens is gone, obviously, Dennett doesn't seem to talk too much. But, you know, these two guys are still kind of trucking along. And they're pretty, I mean, especially Harris. Dawkins is not really explicit about it, but they're pretty much anti woke. I mean, you know, I know Jerry Coyne a university Chicago's big fan of these guys, he's new atheist type. And he is anti woke. And so, you know, they're kind of in in a bad odor, frankly, with a lot of online atheist today. How do you feel about them? Are you still are you still on the the Dawkins train the Harris train?
Yeah, I mean, I - I've, to be honest, I've been paying less attention to the work more recently. But I, I would say I generally agree with what I do see. And I would call myself also anti woke in a lot of ways. I know people make this distinction. You're either you're not woke, or you're anti woke or you're woke. And I think they they not woke thing is, it's it's like, it's too cute, right? It's this it seems to be this like attempt to be better than better than everyone that this in this culture war, you know, ever all these two groups were immature and duking it out in here, I'm above all it and I'm gonna say that I'm not woke at all, I'm simply not woke. Right. And and I think that's, that's not. I mean, it doesn't make sense to me, given what's at stake. And I think that if you if you really take a look at what is at stake, that you have to have a more hardcore position, even if that means you're a little bit unpopular. And, you know, you're not as mature sounding. And above, above it all, seeming as if you say that you're just simply not woke.
Okay, so, you know, I want to I want to go back to the new Atheism thing. Partly because, you know, so I don't know if I would, again, like it's hard for me to say that I was a new atheist. I've been an atheist so long, it wasn't really a traumatizing thing for me, it just was the way I am. But, you know, when it came on the scene, I found it interesting. I wasn't against it. I wouldn't say I was in favor of it either. I just didn't have a strong emotion about it with a lot of people. I disagreed with some of the ways that and like Sarah we have talked about this. Like, I think there's a particular way to describe the phenomenon of religion. And there are some disagreements I have, with the emphases of the New Atheists, mostly the emphasis on kind of belief and system building, as opposed to like tacit anthropological dynamics, but that's a separate issue to what I'm going to ask you next, which is, you know, people like Dawkins and Harris I think, you know, frankly a lot of people that grew up in the United States in the late 20th century like me, I'm a little older than you. We remember when atheism was like incredibly taboo, the religious right was ascendant. And I think our attitude was a lot of us was damn if we just got religion out of the public square, if like the the importance of religion just decrease. It would be great wouldn't the world be so much more progressive and enlightened. And I don't mean progressive in a particular ideological way. But just like open minded, like liberal in a very literal sense. And, you know, Dawkins positive, the hypothesis like I mean, I think tongue in cheek that religion is the root of all evil and all these things in 2006. Well, in 2022, you know, we don't have a world where everybody's an atheist, but we do have a world where secularism in the United States has just like, increased radically in the last generation, I think a lot of it can be attributed to the over... overreach of the Religious Right, like, people just got sick of it. Right. So I mean, this is a reaction. But, um, you know, I don't want to like, again, like, you know, some listeners are like, Oh, is he talked too much about wellness, but let me social justice wokeness, like it affects our lives. And, you know, to be candid, these people are extremely judgmental, they're not very forgiving. You know, they use social media in the way that you would imagine. It doesn't seem like the rise of quote, unquote, "secularism" has actually led to salubrious outcomes. And I'm not saying that we lived in a utopia in the 1990s When I was growing up, but, uh, you know, this is a, this is a, this isn't what what people were imagining.
Yeah, yeah. Um, it's interesting, isn't it? Because I don't, I mean, I don't know, to what extent one caused the other in the sense that people just left Christianity behind and then adopted this other religion, although I do have to say that I have noticed this, particularly in some groups, some more intense kind of conversion. There's this, like an ex evangelical to, you know, woke extremist pipeline. It's really interesting, because you can just see, you can see it happen to somebody leaves behind, you know, evangelical Christianity, and then then they become this, you know, atheist. And then and then just quickly jump like headfirst into woke politics and adopt the same kind of, you know, ways of, of, of speaking to others or relating to others that they did back when they were religious. Only with just different different, different linguistics, right, in different different language, different bad guys. So it's, you know, I, it has made me think about why I do what I do, and ultimately, what the goal of my work is. So, you know, what, the way I see my work is not, you know, this is not what I would have said maybe maybe five years ago, or 10 years ago, which is that I would have said, I want to see less religion period. In the world, you know, more reason/science less religion, right. And I would still, you know, generally agree with that, except, you know, with the caveat that I would add, I want to see less secular religion as well. So anything that that sort of behaves like a religion. Sorry, there's like a, I don't know if you can hear it, there's a siren going,
Yeah, we will edit that out we'll edit this out.
So it's also also to just see less secular religions of any kind to see does whatever this dogmainstinct is to see do do what we can to tamp down on that. But ultimately, I'm not sure if that's possible. I what I know, that we can do is we can build a system of governance and laws, that... that pull against that instinct as much as possible, that slow down, those kinds of behaviors that you will form. And, you know, like due process, like freedom of speech, all these things like and it's become more - to me, it's become more, you know, more clear that this is where what the focus should be not necessarily trying to change human nature to remove this religious element or instinct, whatever it is, but to organize society in a way that it can't hurt us. As as bad as it might.
Yeah, I mean, what I would say, you know, people have asked me this, my, my considered opinion, it's hard to separate the social dynamics that we see around us from social media, which didn't really exist 15 years ago or a generation ago. So that's, that's a confound right there. But, you know, I would say that you know, what the In the in the Enlightenment they call it enthusiasm these manias and these moral panics which are breaking out now in various ways. And I feel like you know, some religions, they've had to deal with it, they figured out institutions, checks, norms, cultures, and you can say that, like religion can serve as a social dampener. Right? There are other things that can serve as social dampeners. Like the Nordic countries are very communiterian, but we're not in the United States. So I think that's been a problem. When you unmoor people and just kind of let them in the wild. You don't know what you're gonna get all the time.
Yeah, um, yeah, I think this is a this is especially interesting, because social media in so many ways, amplifies all of the more, you know, the the most extreme kinds of tendencies that we see in religion, I think that's why the the woke issue has become so intense, especially how quickly it has taken over the set of the population that is online all the time, and connect hyperconnected all the time. I think the next you know, I'm interested to see what happens in the next five years, I can say that I have no idea where it's going to go. Other than, you know, in the short term, in the short run, I can, I will bet that wokeism and will increase. And then after that, after that, maybe five to seven year period. I don't know.
Yeah, yeah, we don't. We don't know. Um, one thing that I want to ask you about, because I want to get canceled for the 27th time. Is this like sex/gender thing, which I don't talk about too much. But I see you wading into it. And I'm wondering like, what are you thinking? Like, so what are you thinking?
Hmmm... What am I thinking? I'm thinking a lot about it. And yeah, it is one of those things. It's like, you know, I think it might be the, the least touchable of all the evolved woke dogmas is the gender stuff or the transgender stuff, I should say. It feels to me, what do you what do you think about that? Is that true? Or is it still like race?
Hmmm..... No, I think you're right. I think you're right. Well, I think you're right. I think you're right. So I ... Why? it's weird. Why is why is it the least touchable?
Yeah, well, I don't know about that. I have some theories, but none of them all they could concrete as far as what I think about it. Um, you know, I've described myself before in this like, sort of clumsy way, which is, like, this clumsy wording that I'm I'm a gender atheist, which is, you know, haha, I'm an atheist, and I'm a gender atheist. What I mean to say about that is I just don't, I don't understand what, what anyone means when they say gender. And I mean, I'm, I'm not giving myself enough credit, I do try to understand, I feel like it's deeply incoherent. The idea of gender, I don't think such a thing exists. That is different from and independent of biological sex. You know, I think what we, my worldview can be summed by saying that, you know, I think we have a biological sex, I think we have, you know, personality traits that are related to our biological sex, but not entirely formed by biological sex also formed by other genetics and, you know, and formed in one way or another by our environment. So we have these we've, you know, personalities that tend to conform to, you know, our, our sex, but not always. And then their sexual orientation. And that's it. And I don't think you need a system on top of that called Gender. That, that, that claims to be independent of biological sex, I'm not sure how it can be. The more I look into gender ideology, the more I've read, what, you know, their own texts, and how they describe what it means to be transgender, the less I understand it. Frankly, I don't think they have an answer. And when you asked a question, like the fundamental question, you know, define a man or define a woman without using the word woman and without using the word man, and they can't do it. And I think that that's extremely telling that if you can't if you can't tell me what it feels like to be a woman without using the word or without it without referencing all sorts of like antiquated you know, stereotypes of what it what a woman is, and when a man is, then you don't really have a concept here. I think what what's actually going on is a combination of a lot of different things. Many people have talked about the social contagion element of transgenderism. I also think that there's, you know, that this is sort of this, culturally originated, like psychosomatic, you know, fever, and it fits into this, you know, into a variety of general anxieties that we have, and and I've been reading a lot about psychosomatic illnesses that have plagued humanity, like, you know, throughout history, hysteria, being, you know, a common one, but also paralysis, all these interesting things. And, you know, they spread socially, the symptom pool grows in a very interesting way that feels very, you know, tied down to cultural interpretations and fashions even. I think it also has to do with this displacement of, of our bodies and, and nature, you know, and that's more of like, critique on like a technological age, you know, brought on by the Internet and, you know, brought on by maybe an increasing amount of time being disconnected from material reality, and spending a lot of time in this virtual reality. And porn has something to do with it. But that depends a little bit on - on the person, and what they're citing, and you know, what their biological sex is. So there's a lot that's going into it, that's, that's forming this thing that we call trans, or gender ideology. But it seems to me that the explanations given by them are internally very incoherent, and I simply can't accept it. So there must be something else going on. And we should be trying to figure out what that is, unfortunately, that conversation is very difficult to have. As you know, as you know, and, and any, many of our friends who have sort of dipped into this, no, which makes me really mad, because there's a lot at stake here, people are
modifying their bodies, sometimes in a permanent way, a lot of young kids are on on hormone therapies, taking all kinds of making all kinds of decisions that they can't really easily walk back. You know, so there's a real cost to all this. And that's not even including the implications on a policy level, the implications of, you know, people know, people have been hearing about women's sports, that's sort of an extreme edge case. But there's also just this, the general idea of what it means to have like a private space for biological females, and what will happen to to women in the public sphere, when that that space gets taken away. So there's a lot of like, there are a lot of really important implications to, you know, to, you know, this logic and where it's leading us. So it's important that we all try to understand the logic, right, trying to make sense of it. And that we be allowed to have this conversation, but as far as I can see, there's not a lot of debate or not a lot of debate that is, you know, that is okay to have in sort of these mainstream and respectable places.
That's why you're having to do having a discussion here. Yeah. Well, speaking of mainstream and respectable, I forgot to plug your substack that you have been posting at Sarahhaider.substack.com. It's called "Hold that thought". And your first big post was "Deplatforming Joe Rogan will Backfire" I'm sure a lot of listeners are probably a little sick of the Rogan discourse, which I've tried to avoid. Cuz, I don't know. Um, it's not really about Rogan. It's about other dynamics and stuff like that. Like, can you talk about what you wrote?
Yeah, so I have a substack. It's brand new. I, I tried to start it a little while ago, and I just couldn't find the time but now I'm, I'm committed to doing this and really excited about it. I've been wanting to write for some time, or just move forward into this. Not that activism isn't extremely interesting. It's that you know, over time you get bored of whatever it is that you're doing, but also I just feel like I've learned a lot from being in the activist space. And I want to talk about some of these things. And you write about them and discuss them publicly and build a little community. So I'm excited about the move to substack. My first post wasn't going to be about Joe Rogan, it just ended up that'swhat everyone was talking about. And it felt to me that I just, I had something to say there. So I said it. And, you know, fundamentally, the the point of my article was just that, you know, Rogan isn't just, you know, Joe Rogan isn't seen as this. You know, extremely intelligent, expert - subject matter expert, he is trusted for different reasons, right? Like, I mean, I think people think you trust a doctor because you trust their credentials, and you trust that they that they know what they're talking about, because they're educated. And that's, that's one aspect of trust. But the other aspect of trust is their intentions, you know, can you trust them to do the right thing for you? Right, and, and to want the... to want what's best for you. And in the case of Rogen, I think it's clear that he's, he's trusted, because he's seen as this authentic voice, unlike what they see in media outlets everywhere else. So it's, it's it's not to say that they that they think of him as a replacement, for you know, this, for this class of credentialed experts. It's that he's, he's apart from them, but he's also filling a need, that they aren't filling or can't fill, which is as a space of, hey, I'm just trying to figure this out. If I mess up, I'll say so, if I don't know, something I will, you know, make that clear.And he... when you just listen to one episode and a half the time you say, Oh, I don't know. And he's like, oh, you know, Jamie, pull that up, look that up. So it's very common thing. And I think it's one of those things that sort of builds trust bit by bit over time. It's a kind of thing you never see. Or you hardly ever ... I shouldn't say never, but you hardly ever see happen anywhere else, where people will just admit to not knowing something, or admit that, you know, they've just heard about something. And Joe opens himself up in this way. So I think he he he has earned this mantle of authenticity in the eyes of a lot of his fans. And that is why he's trusted. And this attempt to try and deplatform him will confirm to all these people you know that that really the the mainstream media cannot be trusted because there's a reason they're shutting down Joe Rogan. There's all these conspiracy theories about the media and how how they work, and how connected they are. And all those conspiracy theories are, you know, they center on this idea that there's there's something you don't want, they don't want us to know, right. They're hiding something they don't want us to know. And if you if you actually deplatformed. This guy, you're going to their this, this will confirm everything that they already thought they knew. So I think that there's a there's just a strong potential for this to backfire. And there's really no upside because the assumption that Rogan's audience goes to Joe Rogan, and just like, you know, they say, oh, Joe Rogan's doing that this is what I'm gonna do, you know, he's, he's, that's not their relationship, or that's not how I understand their relationship to be. I'm somebody who's been listening to Joe Rogan for a very long time. I don't do anything this guy does. You know, like, he's
Wait wait wait wait... You listen to Rogan.
I listen to Rogan, I've been listening for many, many years. But I have to say with the caveat that I don't listen to most of the episodes, I just let I pick and choose the ones where the guest is somebody I'm interested in. Most of the MMA episodes, which are like half of them, I don't listen to that. I don't care about that. Half of the ones with the regulars, his friends were comedians who are on I skip those. I'm not interested in those. Occasionally, I listen in with a celebrity guest I often listen in if there's some kind of scientist, or author or just like interesting person who's doing something different. And I'll listen to Joe Rogan. And I've been listening for, I don't know, four years, five years, along time, you know, it feels like a long time now. And the first time I encountered Joe Rogan's podcast, I thought, what Joe Rogan has a podcast? Like why does Joe Rogan have a podcast? And why does anyone listen to him? Right? Because my exposure to him was Fear Factor, which was such an obnoxious show. And he was so obnoxious on it. That I couldn't I couldn't see the I couldn't see the appeal. But I noticed I think I found him because I was looking up some other... I forget who but some scientist or, or some somebody who written a book. And I was looking this person up and their interview with Joe Rogan came up and I was like, What are they doing on Joe Rogan's podcast, what are they doing? And I listened to it? And it was, it was Okay, it was good, actually. And then I just kept listening. And, you know, as I listened, it was - Joe became a very likable figure. He appears to be right. I mean, how do you know who someone truly is, but he appears to be fairly honest, humble, and extremely curious. He is also conspiracy minded. But he genuinely appears to be trying to figure the world out. And that's, there's a lot I can respect in that. And so it's, it's sort of it's fun and nice to be to be listening along, as he's sort of moving about in the world and trying to trying to answer these questions that are coming up in his own head. So yeah, that's my.
So this is fascinating. Um, I've really have not listened to Rogan, except for like five minute clips here. And there, I probably listened to a aggregate total of one hour of Rogan in my life. So I don't have like strong opinions. I didn't actually know that the breakdown of episodes was like that. I don't really care that much. I will tell the listener I live in Austin, I have met him. We had very quick conversation. He seems like a nice guy. You know, one thing I will say, people are criticizing him for like caving and all this stuff, and he has all this money, but he has people who work for him. You know, he has people whose livelihoods depend on Him who don't have FU money. So, you know, you got to keep those considerations in mind. I I'm actually still I've kind of like shocked that you are a listener? Because you are not who I have... Someone like you, someone like you is not like my mental image of a Joe Rogan listener. Right.
Right? But that's, that's I think that's that's, like there's a mental image people have of Joe Rogan listeners, and I don't think it's true. I mean, of course, there there are some people but his listener base is so huge, you know, it encompasses more than, you know, the, the stereotype that you might expect, but what would you expect? Like what did you have in mind?
I was thinking maybe, I mean, like, you know, you might have changed in the last like, since I've last saw you, but you know, someone a little bit more jacked. More squats, squat racks, you know, what I'm saying? Maybe baked quite frequently. You know, they play video games, you know, probably don't read books. Maybe like, they get all their news from like, YouTube streams or something like that's what I'm thinkin' - am I wrong? I mean, is this a stereotype?
I think that's, uh, I mean, I, it's not true for me. Um, but it's, you know, it's it. He's not the same as I don't approach when I listen to Joe Rogan. I'm not listening to I don't think I'm listening to a news source. You know, it's, it's like saying that, you know, back, if you remember, when the Daily Show was competing with news media, and people were getting information from The Daily Show, when they, you know, and trusted the Daily Show more than they trusted, you know, CNN, and those conversations back in the day, I think it's a similar thing where he's not you know, he's not aiming to be this like reputable source. He's just somebody who's exploring things that he finds interesting. Or just hanging out with his buddies, and you know, having a laugh, and I skip those episodes, I'm not interested in those. But, you know, I find Joe to be you know, the thing I like best about him is that he just is so genuinely curious. And I just don't see that enough in any you know, anywhere. He especially not in highly intellectual circles, like people just don't seem to be open minded about things. And of course, with Joe the criticism is that he's like, too open minded, I think you always run the risk of that. If you really are, if you really are highly, highly curious, and kind of this charitable person. But it's, it's a refreshing attitude. It feels a little bit like, you know, just a palate cleanser sometimes to what I see on on Twitter. So it's, it's, it's a kind of, it's a different kind of experience. And it's, you know, and I enjoy, and I enjoy having it and the way to see people on Twitter who have never listened to Joe Rogan, who are not fans who have never, you know, don't really have this relationship with Joe Rogan. And then to hear it explained to me in a way that I would never recognize it. It's just It's mind boggling, but it's this it's this thing, this pattern that we see again, and again, we're just somebody gets pulled in and becomes this main character and you take, you know, five minute clips of there 1000s and 1000s of hours of hours of recordings, and you can make them out to be whatever you want them to be.
Yeah, yeah. And so I want to talk a little bit about identity because it just kind of basically. Alright, so I'm a little surprised. So I haven't commented on Rogan. Because what do I know about the guy? I don't listen to him, right? So I haven't said much. Turns out that you said, I mean, I thought, What did I think? I thought like you commented on it, because you have these, like, deeply thought, like intellectual opinions, but turns out that you listen to the guy. Okay, I didn't. I didn't get that. I mean, maybe I missed it.
It's both. It's both, I don't, I don't I - mean, I don't talk about it, like "Oh, I'm a big fan," because it's because there's also this other angle to it. But I think I went in with, you know, I felt like the nature of the relationship that Joe has with his audience was being misunderstood that the trust angle was being misunderstood. And it was being misunderstood. Because these people don't, they don't listen, they have no idea of what's actually happening, and you can just listen to five minutes, 10 minutes clips, and you have a very different understanding, than if you regularly listen to like, the three hours or whatever that that episode goes on.
Alright, so, you know, you didn't fit my demographic model of a Rogan, bro, you know? So let's, let's like talk about demographics, right? So you are a brown skinned American, female, mid millennial, young millennial like that, you know, let's put it there. So I, you know, I people always tell me things about what it's like to be a woman online, or, yeah, I don't know, a person of color or black. I'm a personal of color. But whatever. Since I'm conservative, you know what I'm saying? People have to explain it to me. So what do you say to people? Like, what is how is your experience different than mine? Because you're a young woman, and I'm a Gen X, dude. How was your experience different when you talk to like, say, like white woman your age as like a brown woman, we probably have similar experiences insofar as like, if our tweets ever get into the saffron sphere, the name is triggering. And we get a lot of confused reactions. You know what I'm saying? So I can relate on that level. But can you talk to that a little? If there is any difference? You think, I don't know. Because like people, like, it's one of those things that you don't have this experience? And I'm like, Okay, I don't have this experience. So like, you got some experience, tell me about it.
All right. But I can only I mean, I can talk about my experience, but I don't know yours - so we don't know what the relationship of you know, It might be the exact same experience...
Nah, but you know my experience! Bcause like, I'm a male, so I have more privilege. So it's all better.
I mean, that's the this is why I find so frustrating. I mean, this is like the gender conversation to like, how do you know what it's like to be, you know, a male as a as a biological female? And vice versa? Like, how do you know that, you know, unless I want to see the data, like I want. And I think there has been a couple of studies about this. Really, till just like online abuse. But there's so many confounding factors, like anytime I see it just, it's sloppy in one way or another or missing a part of the picture. So you don't really, I don't know what what data is telling me. I just know what people are telling me. And it's, I can't, I can't pull apart the difference between, you know, an actual difference in experience, versus an actual difference in like, how they experienced it, right, like in how they interpreted what is happening, and I think that they're probably when it comes to, to sex differences. There's, there's both the case of the experienceis a little- a little bit different, like objectively, but also like, the subjective of how we take it, and interpret it in our own heads. Is is different. So I, you know, I feel that you know, it as a woman, there are ways in which it's easier to be, you know, to be online, like, I think sometimes people hold you with kid gloves a little bit or treat you with kid gloves. They're less likely to disagree with you. That's my, you know, subjective, like, sort of what I note. So I guess that's a little bit of a privilege. It might be the case that there's that, that you know, men are nicer in general, except when they are pushing back at you. I think there is, um, you know what, I think that at the extreme end the nastiness has a different element to it. When you're a woman like certainly the comments that are nasty take this like bizarre like sexual tone, you know, like, where it's not just like calling me stupid it's like this desire to like debase me as a woman, which is interesting, and I don't think that happens to men. So...
Yeah, I don't think that's that I don't think that's ever happened to me. I'm trying to think I don't think I've ever been proposition that way, maybe I need a better photo? I don't know.
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of that in that, you know, the a lot of the the religious my religious trolls like the Muslim trolls that go after me. Um, they'll make a lot of those comments, you know, like for them there there's a lot of slurs like us against me and like very sexual, very explicit kind of insults that are that are thrown out that way, my way. I don't think that happens to male counterparts in the ex Muslim space. So that's definitely that experience is different. And it I mean, it sucks, I guess, right, but it's
okay. Okay, I do have to say something here. And like, you know, we can edit this out if you're not comfortable about this as weird but I have like, women that I follow like the Mutual's, that I interact with sometimes. And I'm kind of careful the way I interact, because there's something weird that happens, which is dudes will slide into my DMs and be like, Do you know her? Is she single?
Really?
Yes, that's happened with you twice. So it just cuz, like, they think that they can tell that we're actually kind of friends. So they're like, maybe you'll know, so I'm just like, bro...
Wait these are random dudes are these are dudes, you know?
These are dudes, these are dudes. I know. And one of them is the dude, you know, but anyway? Well, I mean, you're not the only one that this has happened. In terms of like, in terms of like, so like, you know, I am, let's just say I'm circumspect about these interactions in public anymore. Because I don't really want to deal with even even like the kind of, you know, secondary blowback to this, I just don't want to have this discussion. This is weird. You know, so I have to be candid about that. I'm just like, Yeah, like that, that only happens with a particular demographic of people I interact with almost invariably women under the age of 35. Who, yeah, aren't wearing a hijab or something? You know, what I'm saying?
Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's always that's just the tricky thing is like being a youngish woman, they're just like a, this this additional element to your public persona. That just has to do with sexual appeal. And for... and there's both like people, people treating you as, as somebody that, you know, has this extra element to them, and you can't really, you can't shake it off, unless you don't have a picture of yourself. Or, you know, purposely make yourself seem like very unattractive or something like, I mean, there's, there's really not much you can do to sort of just accept it and move on. Um, I have been lucky in that I've not been like, I mean, I guess I'm inviting harassment now saying that, that I haven't really experienced too much harassment, like, in the sense that people propositioning me too much, personally. So that's been good. I think I've been lucky there. Or maybe I've just been very cold to people sliding in my DMs and very polite, and then they know that, you know, that she's not warming up to this kind of conversation. So maybe, maybe there's maybe that's it.
Yeah, I don't you know, I don't I'm not like attesting to the ubiquity of this right here. I'm just saying that, like, I just realized, oh, it's only one group of people that I get pestered about. And it's really annoying to me that I have to like, even like, like, I don't answer the question, unless I know the person and then I'll be like, whatever. But I'm like, How did I get into this? How did how did I get on this person's radar to ask this question, I realized, oh, it's because I had a public interaction with this person. So I'm just like, you know, maybe I won't have too many public interactions with this person. I don't want to deal with this, you know? So I mean, that's, that's definitely probably not something that you know, the reciprocal, probably never happens.
That's never happened to me - I've never, I've never Well, that's never happened to me. I don't think of Yeah, that's never happened. I
mean, that. That's just, but I mean, basically, you know, you're not you're not giving me the standard, like, oh, well, this is the sort of emails I get these creepy DMS. I'm just kind of curious. I mean, you have you have a lot of followers on Twitter. So that's, that's a reasonable sample size. I'm just - I'm just wondering
Sorry. What was the question? I missed that.
I'm just saying like in terms of, it's not like a ubiquitous you're not getting threats constantly. I'm just curious cuz some people say that they do. Maybe they have a different audience.
It's decreased over time. The kinds of threats because I don't engage with that kind of audience that directly anymore. Back when I was on their radar more directly, I did get them and occasionally I'll do something, you know, like, have a very public appearance, or, you know, we came out with these billboards in 2019. And then I was sort of back in and receiving kind of vague and threatening messages. I think we're lucky in that we are English speaking. And we we have this, you know, English speaking audience, which tends to be people who are less extreme, particularly in North America, like, particularly in you know, specifically United States, even - even in North America, that we're sort of broadcasting to it to a group that is already less radical than, like, sort of the general Muslim population. You know, when I initially got onto thisspace, I got a lot more threats, and it feels like I get now and I think, at least part of that is because there's just so many more of us. And some of those people, some of the people that are speaking out are much more directly, you know, like everyday posting and talking about, you know, why Islam sucks, you know, like, specific Hadiths, like, citing specific stuff, having arguments about and debates with Muslims, I don't really do that. I've never really done that, but I especially don't do that anymore. And so I think that they've sort of forgotten about me and moved on.
Well, so I mean, how, how do you see your, I don't know, you kind of an activist, your public figure, etc, etc, all this stuff, like, Alright, so, you know, COVID is kind of fading out, you know, maybe you can hit the road, I don't know, you have the ex Muslims of North America, you have the substack. Now, like, what do you seeing for the next 10 years? Because, you know, you have a lot of life ahead of you, obviously, you're still going to be a young person for a while, actually. Like, where are you going to put your energies?
Yeah, um, I want, I still see myself as an activist, maybe not in the role of, you know, necessarily building an institution forever. I mean, I'm, I'm still involved with ex Muslims of North America, and I, you know, love my organization. But, you know, there's, there's several aspects to activism. And one is institutional building, which I think is really important, and often overlooked, in favor of, you know, more public discussion and debates, but I, I think that, you know, I really enjoy breaking down, you know, aspects of harmful ideologies, of interpreting, you know, cultural, you know, various phenomena, like this is something I like doing, it's something I like thinking about, and that's kind of in the direction of, sort of having these kinds of explorations with others. On my substack. Lately, I've been thinking a lot about the gender stuff, which we, which we discussed a little bit. And even that is just this entire world of, of, you know, I mean, biology, of course, but also, you know, culture and how we come to understand our, you know, what's going on with our bodies of our specific institutions that are there to diagnose what's what's wrong with us. How, you know, certain ideas spread. It just all of that is just very fascinating to me, I love that I get to be in a position where I can think out loud, and, you know, without too many... I'm not really afraid of getting cancelled because I'm already I'm already you know, an undesirable in a lot of ways. So I can just, I can just without worry post what I want.
Wait wait wait. What do you mean, you're an undesirable so many ways, like, unpack that for me.
Oh, you don't? I mean, you don't know. You don't think so?
Well, I mean, maybe I'm looking at from a very special perspective of an even more undesirable, you know? I don't know...
Yeah, well, um, yeah, it's, uh, I think, because right on the backs... I'm not you know, Richard Dawkins, who had this whole career built as a biologist prior to getting involved in the you know, the religion and specifically the Islam stuff. I don't have anything like that I you know, right from the get go. I was what 20? 20, when I started, what became Ex Muslims of North America. And I was the first you know, speech that I gave that really took off. I think I was 23 when I gave it. So I was quite young and in and out already just headfirst, jumping into the space that was very politically toxic. And now it's interesting because people reach out to me. And we'll you know, will say, "Sarah, the the first time I heard of you, it was, you know that, that you were an Islamophobic" Or, or this conservative or whatever, right. I mean, that's how, and you know, and then I encountered you again, and I found, you know, something that you said that was interesting or worthwhile. And then I explored the rest of what you were saying. And it's just, I've heard that specific story so many times now that, you know, it's clear to me that, obviously, there's a whole, there's a, there's a perception of who I am outside of my circles. You know, that is probably pretty nasty. Stigmatized to some degree, I'm comfortable with that. Frankly, I don't, I don't really, I don't, I don't worry too much about it. Which I think is probably a unique way of looking at things. I feel like you're the same way, you don't think too much about your reputation. But, you know, I'll allow that to be kind of a superpower. And just explore what I want to explore and say what I feel to be true.
Yeah, I mean, you know, that's, I think that that does sum up who you are. And, unfortunately, I do feel like it's against the spirit of the age, we are swimming against the spirit of age thinking out loud. You know, I if I had to start a substack without my name, and maybe something different than unsupervised learning, it would be "Not Reading the Room". Because I don't, I don't like reading the room, I don't really care. I've never really cared my whole life and all sorts of different circumstances. But, you know, today, especially with social media, the demands for conformity reading the room is really, really important. Otherwise, the beast will come for you, you know, but I'm just like, swallow me whale, you know, I don't really care
It's I don't think it's a healthy way of living right? Like, I mean, I talked to my friends who are you know, the secret conservatives are like, are secretly heterodox, not even conservative, right? Like, just questioning liberal dissidents, liberals in academia, in you know, various, you know, positions of power in well known organizations. And, you know, they, they speak to me, I feel as if they are living with this kind of tension all the time, you know, this, this, this, they're wearing this false mask, and I felt that way very briefly when I was not religious, but I hadn't come out yet as, as an atheist in my family, where I was kind of living this lie. And for it was a very, very short time, because I really can't shut up about these things for too long. But it was terrible. I remember, I hated the way that that felt. I knew that it couldn't last. I was just preparing, you know, how, how will I come out to my family? You know, like, I wanted all the, the, the, the stars to be aligned before I before I had the big revelation with them, but I didn't like it, you know, and it felt to me as a way that it that just, I was, I don't know, maybe it's a personality thing. Like maybe it's not so much that....
Well, maybe it's in your genes. Maybe you're born that way, Sarah,
Maybe. You could tell me about this.
Well, I gotta see your genotype first. But um, alright, we've been talking for a while. I am pretty surprised I did not know that you were Rogan, bro. So I've just inadvertently outed you. I hope people check out your substack and with your Rogan bro ish thoughts I don't know I just like I wasn't expecting that. Okay.
Sorry.
No I mean there's nothing to pologize for I mean,
I didn't think there was that isn't that surprising, but you know, I mean, I listened to him so I don't know what people think.
But yeah, I don't like where I You seem like you see, like an NPR listener, but I guess not anymore. Maybe it's a little too woke for you.
I haven't listened to NPR in a long time, but they don't tell you anything you don't know. Right.
Yeah, that's fair. I just repeat they repeat the NPR voice. Yeah. So I yeah, I don't know what I thought. I mean, like I said, like, I'm not you know, I'm not like angry at Joe or anything like that. It's just not I don't listen to that stuff. So I was it's, it's nice to talk to somebody who's listening.
I read books and I listen to podcasts. That's what I do. That's how I get my information. I no longer read the news. I stopped reading the news probably three months ago and it was a Good was a good idea. And I'm going to continue on.
But you're still on Twitter.
I'm still on Twitter, and anyone can get my hot takes. My excellent takes.
Wait, how come you're not blue checkws yet? Just like this is like a boring question, but I'm just curious.
Um, I don't know, I think there was a time where you could apply, right? And a lot of people were like, You should apply. Like, I remember several people, like, were like, Sarah apply, here's what you do you like submit this form or something. And, you know, I hated the idea of applying for something. I was like, either give it to me, or, you know, or I don't want it, you know, and then and then over time, I just didn't want to be in that club anymore. And it kind of, there's this, like, there's this, you know, like, I'm a woman of the people kind of thing
No, I get it. I get it. So I, I have a blue check. Mostly because like, I don't want someone to impersonate me online. So that there's there are some perks. I think that's why I did it. So I just want to put that out there. I'm not there to be a snob about it. It's just...
Yeah, but I can use I can I can use blue check as a slur without,
Yes!
You know, without that awkward thing. Yeah....
Yeah. Like, I mean, people people talk about Blue checks as a slur to me not realizing I have one. I'm like, I have a blue check. Okay, like, I get what you're saying. But we're not all like that. Not all blue checks.
Sometimes. Yeah, sometimes it's useful. The impersonation thing. I've actually advocate I asked Jack for for the, to get somebody else a blue check at the time that COVID was, you know, really running as you know, an epidemiologist who was like a trustworthy resource. And he got the blue check.
nice,
Like, a couple hours later, so it it serves a purpose. But yeah, I mean, kind of fun to be without it.
Yeah, you like mix it up? I mean, yeah, I mean, I think like, was it like, I realized, by the way, like, just some listeners might not find it... You said something about Larry Wilmore many years ago. And that's when I realized that you were a heretic. Oh, really? Yeah, it wasn't a positive thing. And I was like, Oh, okay. I see.
That I thought he was terribly, terribly unfunny. That's all I remember about him. Y
eah, but I mean, you were making fun. Yeah, you were making fun. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, she's she's off the rez. So I was like, Okay, I see how she is. gonna follow you after that. But um, anyway, I'll let you go. It was really great conversation. And everyone can find her now her sub stack. It is Sarah Haider. So it's your full name, unlike me, which I've just received that subsector. But check that out. Subscribe. And then also on Twitter, @SarahTheHaider. So, @ so you can find her there. And I'm going to be excited to see what you're doing. Sarah. It's been great seeing you do what you've been doing for almost 10 years now. It's gonna be - be next 10 years will be super exciting and I will probably continue to be canceled every six months. But you know, I'm still here. Alright, thanks for talking Sarah
Thanks Razib. Have a good one.
Is this podcast for kids? This is my favorite podcast!
