How It’s Built: How to Build a Winning Digital Strategy for Exponential Audience Growth - Alicia Maule | Otter.ai

How It’s Built: How to Build a Winning Digital Strategy for Exponential Audience Growth - Alicia Maule

Julie Confer33min

Jonathan McCoy

00:01

Hey friends, welcome to how it's built a series where we go and explore the intricate yet often overlooked elements that go into crafting impactful change brought to you by our good friends at Allegiance Group and Pursuant.

Becky Endicott

00:11

These are great friends who are fueling nonprofit missions with innovative solution and digital ads, websites, technology, analytics, direct mail and digital fundraising. If you need a partner and amplifying your brand, expanding your reach and fostering unwavering donor loyalty, visit Teamallegiance.com.

Jonathan McCoy

00:32

Hey, I'm John.

Becky Endicott

00:33

And I'm Becky.

Jonathan McCoy

00:34

And this is the We Are For Good podcast. Nonprofits

Becky Endicott

00:37

are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.

Jonathan McCoy

00:45

We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an Impact Uprising.

Becky Endicott

00:54

So welcome to the good community, we're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.

Jonathan McCoy

01:05

So let's get started. Becky, we're the rabid fans. I love this.

Becky Endicott

01:10

My social justice heart is exploding right now. And the fact that we get to tie this to how it's built series is like icing on the cake. Can't wait.

Jonathan McCoy

01:18

I mean it is so exciting. This is the how it's built series. I gotta give a little bit of tone setting and I can't wait to introduce you to today's guest. But you know this series the whole heart behind it was peeling back the curtain of just like the creation process behind the scenes of nonprofits that are doing incredible things and today we're talking about how to build a winning digital strategy with none other than the Innocence Project Are you aware of the Innocence Project because if you're not I need you right now to stop go subscribe go dive in and understand their work. But their mission is really just a free innocent lives to prevent wrongful conduct convictions and to create fair, compassionate and equitable systems of justice for everyone. Their works guided by science and grounded in anti racism. It is such an honor to have Alicia Moll with us she's the first digital engagement director for Innocence Project introduced to us by one of our good friends Adam O'Brien thanks Adam for the intro. But listen, she leads this digital team growing exponential audience growth, revenue and advocacy since 2015. And before be kept building this like award winning team this winning all these things. The web is the Teles the shorties I could keep going on. She was in social media and community editor for MSNBC, which is informing a lot of her strategy. She was a digital organizer on President Obama's 2012 reelection campaign. And she's graduated from Brown University with a BA in Africana Studies. I mean, her personal mission is driven by the goal to end the death penalty by 2040. And to help humanitarian causes make a splash and web three, come on my friend, we're here for all this get into this house, Alicia, so glad that you're here.

Alicia Maule

02:47

Thank you so much for having me.

Jonathan McCoy

02:49

Oh, my gosh, I mean, we're geeking out. We want to know all things about you. Before we get into the how it built, you know, pieces of this puzzle today. Take us back to you growing up, Alicia give us connect to some of the dots of some of the formative experiences that gets you connected and just loving this work that you're pouring into now.

Alicia Maule

03:04

Ooh, I'm in kindergarten, my teacher, Miss Washington. One more formative experience I had was it she had us simulate the Montgomery Bus Boycott, with wooden blocks, the same wooden blocks we paid played with every day, she brought in her parents for a black father and white mother and said before Loving versus Virginia, it was illegal for them to have gotten married. And so that's, that sort of opened up. I mean, that's one of the more formative experiences I remember of, of understanding racial inequality at the at that young age. So that's always obviously colored my life. And then, you know, growing up in Chicago, my mom always told me to follow the rules, because when you get pulled over there, they're gonna arrest you and not your white friends. So I grew up very fearful of that. But ultimately, all of my extracurriculars involved leadership, for students of color. And at Brown especially, is helping first generation students, students, you know, you go to a school like Brown, which is mostly for the wealthy, you know, it's intimidating. You don't want it you don't know how to access the resources. And then you teach freshmen, the language of the isms so we can understand where we fit in the world and have the tools to discuss and defeat it. So that was sort of more formative. And then I knew I wanted to work in digital. And so I kind of bridged my community organizing with telling stories of young of some of the more talented students at Brown from poets to entrepreneurs, and that was main green.tv. And I knew that would be important to have a job, which later would be to work for President Obama in 2012.

Becky Endicott

04:49

I mean, from Mrs. Washington to President Obama. I just, I think it's a beautiful mosaic of just how the seeds get planted and us and I want to thank you so much for your pouring into equity work and to lifting these stories, we had a really fabulous conversation with JJ Velazquez on this podcast with the Frederick Douglass project for justice. And I cannot have a criminal justice reform conversation without lifting the name of trumaine wood, who is someone who is in cart wrongfully incarcerated right now in Oklahoma that I'm trying to get more attention around. But I just really appreciate these sort of formative experiences, because you're right, they do shape the way that we walk through this world. And I want you to connect the dots from that experience, to the Innocence Projects. Before we dive in to what are these digital strategies, we got to talk about the power of what your mission is doing. So give us kind of an overview and history of what the Innocence Project is.

Alicia Maule

05:50

The Innocence Project is a nonprofit based in New York, we work nationally and our founders have sort of been leaders in using DNA to prevent an fue end and prove that our clients are innocent, they've been wrongly convicted. Not only do we get people out our product has helped free over 250 people. We work state by state so that people can access DNA, improve the DNA laws, prevent wrongful conviction, we understand the systemic factors and contributing causes, and then they're compensated for their time on Jesse behind bars. So we've helped free over 250 people in pass dozens of laws across the country. Were part of a network of over 68 International, mostly domestic organizations, who are also working to free innocent people. Yeah, it's it's grown to be an incredible movement that, you know, I'm lucky to be working for.

Jonathan McCoy

06:47

Yeah, I mean, I love that you define it as a movement, because that's what we definitely see. It's not just this monolithic organization, that way you show up. And the way you engage and inspire people to get involved is just a hallmark. So I want you to, you know, kind of give us context to your digital strategy, like, what does it look like today? And what is, you know, as we break it down today, give us some hallmarks, like what's happened with your digital strategy, what are some of the things you've seen come out of it.

Alicia Maule

07:11

So number one, before I started, I worked for MSNBC. And I did two years there. And that was like a boot camp in breaking news and social media. At a time when we went from one social media editor to all of us for taking shifts to just, you know, the Facebook was and Twitter was just booming. So I came to the Innocence Project with the goal of bringing a top notch digital program based on what I had learned on President Obama's campaign and MSNBC, both internally so people understood how digital could help accelerate their goals, and externally, so we can grow this engine. So number one was the systems, making sure your systems all connect and you have the right infrastructure from a data perspective, from an ads perspective, from an emails perspective. from an external perspective, I wanted to treat the Innocence Project like a newsroom where we are breaking anything related to our purview of wrongful conviction. So with that same veracity, and I was taught to produce that MSNBC, I brought that to the Innocence Project, if we were posting once on Instagram, a week I was posting every day, once on Twitter multiple times and increasing frequency. And then understanding that every case is our not every story is our case, but it's still part of the narrative. And we are rich in story. So I saw how rich the the Facebook audience was in how much they loved the work we did. And then we have this footprint of all the DNA exonerate exonerees. And so it was just a matter of blowing that up with the infrastructural back end and then with strategic output on externally.

Becky Endicott

08:58

You say that so casually. That is amazing. Freakin revolutionary. I mean, let's just talk about the mindset for a second, the mindset shift of not looking at your mission, to your point, John, like a monolithic structure and the thing that we're just kind of grinding into, but looking at it as a newsroom is 100%. Trend number five of 2024 here, which is media scales, impact over here, and you all are attacking this at a completely different way. I think you can say, I looked at our ecosystems, I looked at our digital footprint and I saw it was rich with story. And to know that that is a hallmark and to know that that not only needs to be lifted, it needs to be syndicated and it needs to be engaged is likely a reason that your digital strategy is having such incredible growth and the movement itself is growing and growing and probably honestly how We're for good and how all of us learned about the Innocence Project. I learned about it from Facebook as well from years ago. And so I really want to break this down for people. Because now friends, buckle up, grab your notebooks, grab your pencils, because we're about to get super tactical here. We want to understand how you built this winning digital strategy. Like, we want other people to replicate this brilliant playbook. So start us at the top, like 12345. Walk us through these core steps of building the strategy in where the heck did you start, Alicia, I'm dying to know,

Alicia Maule

10:35

on the first day of work, I asked for all the logins for social, I went into our website, and I crashed the website as a front end user, you should never be able to crash your website. So step one was building a new website, and getting the right team to do that, which is a day and they've been a partner of ours since the beginning. And they, they treated the design of the website because our our stories speak for themselves. And the people speak for themselves. We don't you know, it's you know, he designed it with a white background so that the website is a canvas for the stories of our clients. So up to date, getting stuff up to date, making sure the brand can be represented in all these new digital forms, website, and then marketing growth. So I brought on my colleague, Steve AG, er to start investing in growing through Facebook. And what that means is finding people who if they knew about you would would like you or lookalike people who might be fans of the ACLU. So it's, you know, I might have been skeptical at first. But it's, we have a lot of work to show who we are to the billions of people in the world. And so ads help you on an ongoing way to find folks who start to like your content, become email subscribers, and then eventually donors or sign a petition or call a lawmaker, so very aggressive growth on that end, and then an email system comprehensively, but way back in the day, it was a couple of us doing email, and we weren't fully tapping, we were very cautious with asking for too much money or too many, too, you know, just being careful about not overly fundraising in a way that seemed insincere or in any way, not taking into consideration that these are people who have lost decades of their lives in prison. So we just showed that when you invest in digital, the returns are massive. So you know, Innocence Project has all the hallmarks of an extraordinary organization, because not only do we get people out of prison, but we have tangible policy goals that take community members to call their lawmakers. So people, especially in a post Trump era, they don't just want to give they want to say they help stop an execution, they helped pass reforms to prevent wrongful conviction. And in the era of Trump and police killings, you know, we were considered a place for people who wanted to stand up for racial justice.

Jonathan McCoy

13:10

I mean, there's, there's a lot that I want to unpack here, because I think some of these things would seem basic in terms of like, of course, you need to have a functioning website. But I think it's how you are viewing the activation piece, it's almost like you'd begin with the end in mind of like, we know that we want to create these, I would even call it stewardship in a very 2.0 way of like, hey, we were part of this uprising that created this bill or that made this thing happened. Like a stewardship you created, you started with that end game in mind. And you're like, well, to do that, we first have to have this entry point that collects really great information from people. And that gets them in a place that they want to sign up and join our list. So I mean, I want to just double click through your kind of three or four steps there of like, starting with the website, what are the things that if you look at your website today, what does it need to have to make it you know, convert and like create these kinds of engagement experiences on the very first step?

Alicia Maule

14:04

Well, you have to have new and relevant content. So you have the archival exoneration case pages which have a life of their own because they've been in the ether for decades, and are linked in Wikipedia and linked. So that's sort of when I you know, that's the wealth of what we have is these stories all over the internet. And then it's about creating relevant new content that speaks to the issues of wrongful conviction in a way that's relevant to today, whether that's talking about women, the unique struggles of women during women's history month, or the way the system disproportionately incarcerates black and brown people during Black History Month. It's it's staying relevant and creating fresh content. And it is about converting those keeping people on your page as long as possible, and making donations very easy. Everything should be easy and shareable and seamless and make you want to come back. So those are the different things that we work on. And you know, we've constantly iterated on it, we had a major improvement in the last year. And we're now up for best activism website from the web GIS. So we have a great team who's constantly looking for ways to comprehensively tell the work, not just programmatically, but what it's like to work here and represent the full experience of the Innocence Project.

Becky Endicott

15:30

Well, you're doing it beautifully. And I mean, congrats on the nomination. And I'm not surprised when I look at your site. It's just so human. And I love the fact that you said that they were canvases, you know, it's a blank canvas, where the people are the stars, and I very much appreciate that dignified way to come at this work. And I'm curious, you know, you don't you don't operate like a traditional nonprofit. And I mean, that is the highest form of flattery. And I and I wonder when you kind of look at the sector, we do a do this not that, you know, I'm wondering what are you seeing in the digital space that people are doing wrong? When in what are you seeing that is really, really working in the way that you all are engaging in your process?

Alicia Maule

16:16

Yeah, so one is create cross a team across departments. So when I say digital team, we are technically within development. I'm technically on comms the policy team is on policy, the lawyers on the lawyer team, but when I say digital, we holistically are looking at what are the fundraising goals? What are the policy goals? What's the outgoing schedule? It's not? I think that what people suffer from a lot of nonprofits is development is doing this, comms is doing this and so we really had to merge as one. So holistically, we're on the same calendar, being sensitive to this upcoming fundraising campaign or this death penalty campaign or this immediate policy need. And it's one so we've broken down the traditional team silos, and we see digital as one across these these different departments. And so I think that's been really important. And then we're constantly reporting and showing people the impact of their work and their stories and what what stories are performing well, what really catches on, we know that death penalty stories do astronomically well, and we've seen millions of people speak out and call governors in a number of cases to prevent the execution people are tired of police misconduct and, and prosecutorial misconduct stories around that really get people aggravated. So we learned a lot about what what gets what really motivates people to to act,

Becky Endicott

17:50

engagement signals.

Jonathan McCoy

17:52

Clearly y'all are doing it. So I'm just so I love that. That you're getting recognized outside of the space too, because I do you feel like nonprofits typically are not the ones that are like, put up against competitors on like the Webby scale. Like I just love that y'all are obviously breaking through at that level. Can we talk about email for a second? Because I feel like this isn't everybody's toolbox, that you're using it in a way that's actually driving engagement? So like, what does it look like from a digital engagement standpoint, when someone joins your list? What's like that next step? What kind of triggers do you have in place? And how do you view that?

Alicia Maule

18:25

Yeah, so we have a welcome series that slowly gets them interested, whether it's purchasing a shirt or signing the latest petition, or telling a high up, you know, we look at what are some of the best performing emails from the year and what would really get someone involved. So we also have to refresh it. So we're every year we're looking at improving it based on new content. So we will get three or four emails, and then there's a different experience for donors than they are for petition signers. So if you're coming on because you you added your name to stop Marcellus Williams is execution, you get a different experience and someone who just gave donated. So it's tailored to the different actions that people have taken to get to that place.

Becky Endicott

19:09

I want to live something else, I think you guys do really, really well that I want to make sure that none of our nonprofits miss. It's that you really give a diversity of ways that people can engage. It's not just giving on your site. There's an advocacy piece, there's a petition piece, there's a storytelling piece, and I've been on your site long enough to know you have nuanced asks that are going out all the time. And if you are someone without resources, that doesn't mean you don't get to be a philanthropist because we all have something to give here. And I think the way that you've democratized philanthropy, in a way that it's not just a monetary gift that moves the needle on what our mission is, is given such a wide liberty to so many people that come in and give what they can give and I think that that is such a great lesson that's learned here and I want to move into pro Tip kind of in lessons learned because we want to celebrate, celebrate the things that don't work in our organizations and we want to celebrate failing forward and innovating and trying things. Talk to us about some of the lessons you've learned Alicia, throughout the last 10 years of just really building the right digital strategy.

Alicia Maule

20:19

Well, you know, they thank you for knowing our work and taking the time to look at it and and appreciate it. In 2020, when the administration under Trump, reinstituted the death, the Federal death penalty they were executing was like December, they were just executing people left and right. One person had what some people claimed was an innocent single, you know, he was not the person who pulled the trigger, but he was with friends. And we had discussed being on tick tock, but we hadn't made the move yet. And then we saw, we look at the analytics, which again, it's important to know where your communities are, where they're coming from, and we saw one young person's tick tock was bringing in hundreds, you know, 1000s of petition signers for our client, Purvis Payne, who had an execution day in Tennessee. And so we said, we have to, we got to go to them now, we got to build a tic tock presents relate to it. And we have people like you said, giving beyond monetary, they're creating video taking the time to create videos to bring attention to individuals, individual stories. So it then inspired us to get on there and invite them in to meet the lawyers for purpose pain, you know, they executed the sky, but they said, it's too late to stop Brandon Bernards execution. But in essence product has a client who has an execution date, we can still help him. So you got to be alert to these things, otherwise, you miss out on these opportunities. Now, you know, we put we have like 80,000 followers there. And we really see that base as Gen Zers, who we don't need their donations, or they're giving us their time, bring them in, we have a death penalty campaign to meet the team to meet the family, so that we can give them the tools they need to do what they've done previously. So learning is don't overlook any high. Any, any moments, don't you know, don't stop looking at your reports to see where people are coming from and Don't Be Tardy for the party.

Becky Endicott

22:25

Deal.

Jonathan McCoy

22:26

Trademark, we need to give you that to you. So I want to circle back for a split second, because I think some of you said earlier, I'd love for us to camp out for a minute, like just the idea that digital views itself as like one team like silos and echo chambers and our nonprofit offices is like such a real thing, especially across like fundraising and advocacy and those that you mentioned. So just like what does it look like to really bring people together to realize that it's not always about the money? It's not always about passing the bill, like, which, depending on which person you're talking to? How do you coalesce together around a digital strategy, that there's so many different ways you can measure impact and success? You know, like, what is the way you can really bring people together around the shared vision with a strategy? Because I feel like it's just tricky, you know, with so many different perspectives coming to the table?

Alicia Maule

23:14

Yeah, I think prioritizing, you know, the development team is always going to be sensitive to breaking news, and any campaigns of people or policy. So and we know and they know that those, that news, and those activations are only going to strengthen the donor base, right, and give them more reason. So, you know, understanding that, and it's planning ahead, you know, what, you know, we know sort of when the when the, when the development team is going to do you know, end of year, the bigger ones, we do monthly giving campaigns and end of fiscal year. So, you know, we we give space to that. And then the rest is is a mix of concentrated campaigns that might have a deadline, if there's an execution date. We know policies policy season is coming up. So we prepare kind of a large tentpole campaign around jailhouse informants that then will, will go nationally, but then feed into an actual state bill that we need help with. We meet every Monday or every other Monday and we go over the reports across email, ads, editorial and fundraising, product web speakers bureau. So we are sort of just decentralizing organizing anything going out. And then when there's a concentrated effort, everyone knows their role sees the roadmap. Yeah, I don't know. What else I can add. It

Becky Endicott

24:45

just It looks like you're a conductor to me. I mean, there are so many parts moving at all the time and none of them are touchable or, you know, physical. You've got this digital sphere. And I think the sequencing is highly Horton, I love it. And of course, it would be for you with the urgency of executions that are actually on the books. And I'm sitting here wondering, what are your favorite tools in your toolbox? Like when someone listening right now when they say, Okay, I really want to start looking at all of this interplay across systems like tell us what you're looking at, tell us what's useful. And if you got any free tools, we definitely want to know about those two?

Alicia Maule

25:25

Well, let's start with phone to action. When I started, the policy team says we need it really makes a difference. When lawmakers get calls from constituents, I look at tools phone to action came to mind, it's like my digital organizing hub, where you can connect constituents to any lawmaker comprehensively across the US. And it has an SMS system. So this is where I could say, oh my god, there's a massive spike in this state or with this campaign. So every phone to action has its own campaign, whether it's this bill or this person. And the numbers were going crazy. And so what we built there, what phone to action came that has been a game changer is SMS in an EMS you know, social saturate an email saturated now we have 300,000 SMS is that we can we can reach out to when we need a policy pass when we want to share breaking news or we need urgent action. So that to me phone to action is is exceptional. We use stripe now, because we've gotten there, production is great for advocacy stripe is more dynamic for SMS sense to now foster this growth. But I tell everyone invest in SMS, if you haven't already start collecting phone numbers, because anyone who gives you their phone number really loves you. Yeah. And the engagement rate is much higher than any other platform. Everyone checks their SMS, if you have 300,000 people and 1% of them takes action and 10% There's a huge engagement there. And visibility in someone's pocket that is just a game changer, especially when you have a need to stop and execution. So those are my two favorites, I would say. And then of course tiktoks been just brilliant, and a great sign of the of the leadership we see coming from younger generations.

Jonathan McCoy

27:23

Goodness, that's a whole nother conversation. I feel like too, but I just love that you are constantly innovating and looking with just like fresh eyes to say even if 1% I mean how audacious to say even if 1% that is 3000 humans that want to be involved like that is something to pay attention to. And I feel like it's flying under our radar. So much. So Alicia, we love this conversation. And I know that you being in this work and some of your experiences has put you alongside moments that have stuck with you call it like a moment of philanthropy that has really just stuck with you in life. And it could just be a simple moment of kindness of uplift of generosity. Would you take us back to to that moment and you share a story that's really impacted you.

Alicia Maule

28:06

In 2020 Paul Hilde, when walked out of prison and in Florida, he spent over 30 years of his time on death row. He survived cancer multiple times. When he came out. He asked his lawyer that the first thing he wanted to do was touch grass with his feet. For over three decades, he had not felt grass, just concrete. And so we have this video that we often play of Paul Hilde, when touching grass. And if I don't tell you the context, you're like, why are you showing you this when you in that. And when you when you get the context, you're moved to tears. He just wanted to feel the grass and see the moon because those are two things that were in addition to everything else. Family, fatherhood, brotherhood stripped from you and hid he had forgotten what it felt like to feel grass. So that always moves me Paul Hilde, when is out and doing well. He's a lovely person. And it just has has taught me a lot in that moment. And as a storyteller, you know, I think we can understand that without a caption without context. It means nothing. So that's our job.

Becky Endicott

29:26

This is why Alicia is so dang good. Because this is this is what I mean. It's not about just the policy. It's not just about this one person. It's about the fact that we need to find our humanity again, each of us. Can you imagine if you hadn't felt grass underneath your feet for 30 years, if you hadn't seen the moon, how that changes a person. And I think these little moments of humanity that we're giving to others in this work cannot ever be on You're stated, and it is so important. Thank you, Alicia for your work. Thank you for the work of the collective. I am just in awe of what you all are doing and rooting for you so mightily. We end all of our conversations with one good thing. And I wonder how you want to interpret that piece of advice should leave for the community, maybe it's a mantra. What's one good thing you could leave with our listeners today?

Alicia Maule

30:25

Well, you know what our number one value is, is what we've learned what we value is compassion for people over everything. And that has been a guide from the smart people here at the Innocence Project is reminding me in this fast paced technology world where we want results is the livelihoods of our clients are number one. And that really grounds you and how you operate and move every day. And that's one of seven principles that we we drive home through this digital program, but I think that's one we can all consider.

Jonathan McCoy

31:03

Yeah, gosh, more of that. Alicia, I mean, people listening today, you're gonna want to connect with you and with Innocence Project, like, what's the best way to find you online? Where do you hang out online? Where's the Innocence Project? Like? What channels would you push us to? To find y'all?

Alicia Maule

31:18

Yeah, so we're on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and Tiktok at innocence on Twitter, Innocence Project on LinkedIn. LinkedIn, by the way, is a great moment, isn't it, it's where the growth is, everything else is flat, but LinkedIn, and Twitter. So we're on all those channels, if you want to connect with me, I'm a Mau, le and innocence project.org. We're in New York. And if you're a digital person in the nonprofit space, we want to build community community as well. So we'll probably have an event in the summer where we invite other folks doing this work so we can learn from one another. And so yeah,

Becky Endicott

31:58

I mean, yes to more community seriously, I just want to thank you, my friend for not only just the education and expertise you've shared today, but just the compassion and the humanity you instill in your work. And just really, really rooting for the Innocence Project. Thank you for sharing as abundantly as you do. As an organization, we'll be watching you rooting for you. And yeah, keep going. Thank

Alicia Maule

32:23

you. And I think it's important to add in, you know, step number one, even before infrastructure is team, and that, you know, I have the best team around me, the best people for who love to do this work, and are willing to give everything that it takes. And so this digital and innocence project and everything would not be possible without a brilliant team internally and of course, we consider advocates and those on our, in our digital community as part of our team. And we are nothing without the collective contributions of everyone who who keeps our wheels turning.

Becky Endicott

33:02

Now we get it. Yeah. Now we get why everything is collective. Because yeah, it always goes back to the humanity of others. Thank you, my friend. Yeah,

Jonathan McCoy

33:10

such a great combo. Thank you, Alicia. Thanks so much for being here, friends, and you probably hear it in our voices. But we love connecting you with the most innovative people to help you achieve more for your mission than ever before. We'd

Becky Endicott

33:23

love for you to come join our good community. It's free and you can think of it as the after party to each podcast episode. Sign up today. We're for good.com backslash Hello.

Jonathan McCoy

33:33

And one more thing if you love what you heard today, would you mind leaving us a podcast rating and review? It means the world to us and your support helps more people find this community. Thanks so much friends. Can't wait to our next conversation.

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