There are so many ways for us to reinvent the way we practice architecture.
Hello and welcome back architect Nation. I'm Enoch Sears. And this is the show where you'll discover tips, strategies and secrets for running a more profitable and impactful architectural practice and today's episode will be no exception. Because today I'm joined by the illustrious co hosts of the Arcus big podcast, Mr. Evan Troxel and Cormac Phelan. Hello, gentlemen, welcome. How are you doing? I'm doing well. Thanks. Yeah, doing well.
So be here. Thanks.
Yeah, absolutely. This is this is a reunion of the Oh, geez, the Oh, geez. of architectural social media internet. We had a few less gray hairs. And what else?
A few more bright, little more spring.
Little spring in our step. We'll go with that with right. So the absolutely so so those of you who are a frequent Business of Architecture, podcast listeners, as always, thank you for tuning into the show. We'd love your support, we'd love your comments. We'd love your reviews. We'd love providing value to you. And I'm super excited for this episode. If you're not a listener to the Arcus big podcast, which I'm sure you are. Because I think these guys dwarf our podcast in size, which is a note by the way, it's if you have more friends to listen to the Business of Architecture podcast, please do that. But these guys known them for a long time happy to have them on the podcast today, as we were kind of kicking off the show today. There were so many topics we could talk about, and Evan kind of brought up a really good a couple of good points. Number one is he said he's trying to work less. I'm sure all of us can identify with that.
We're hearing that everywhere, right? And nobody wants to work anymore is the other version of that. Yeah. Except
worthy. What what are you guys I'm I'm a I'm a I think I'm a Gen X or we're all answers. Do you guys know? We're all we're all Gen Xers. So it's sort of like a curve, right? Like the Gen Xers. Now the Gen Xers don't want to work to where like, right, we those millennials have it? Right.
You know, it's interesting, we've had this conversation about the fact that, you know, we came up with a group, the boomers, you know, our mentors, that were, you know, do everything, you know, work, work, work, work, work in the Gen Xers, you know, that that was, you know, just like, Well, I'm not gonna rely on anybody else. I'm gonna do it myself kind of thing. Total Sales Alliance, you know, we were kind of the the, like, work martyrs, I guess, if you want to call it that. And, and I've been working more and more with millennials and Gen z's, that look at us and say, why are your Why Why? Why do you have to do that? Why do you have to work 16 hours a day? mean, you know, aren't we scheduling property? Aren't we staffing properly? And And honestly, you know, the short answer is no, sometimes, or most of the times probably no, but it really is kind of calling us out on our bad habits of like, you know, we don't there is a better way of doing this than what you've been doing, you know, your entire career. And most of the time, as you guys said, it's like, you know, people that we think, oh, people just don't want to work? No, they're actually right. I mean, why are we you know, kind of suffering for our art, when there is a better way to do it by you know, being honest and truthful with ourselves like, oh, it's not gonna take me three weeks, it's gonna take me three months, you know, proper scheduling, you know, proper staffing and things like that, just being truthful and, and then getting to the point where like, yeah, you're right, we don't have to kill ourselves for this.
Well, I was just gonna say I saw recently a list of like, the good qualities, and this is gonna be kind of couched in air quotes about architects, and the training that we got when we were in architecture school, and kind of what that what good qualities that instills in us so that you can go out and do and have an amazing career. And like, number one, and number two, we're like, work hard and long hours. It was both of those, like in succession. Right. And we, it's true, we did learn how to do those things. And the generation that came before us expected those those same two things in our professors instilled it into us in school in architecture school, and I think as Gen Xers who were very much alike do it yourselfers. Right? And, and, and not going to rely necessarily on other people, all of that compounds to for us to just be like, Oh, that sounds right. And we didn't question it to your point gourmet, right, which is now the generations are actually questioning that and just saying why it's just like a, like, my kids asked me through their entire, you know, growing up and adolescence, right, it was just like why why why, you know, you've you've raised kids, you know what I'm talking about? That's the question doesn't matter what the answer you give them because there's another why coming? At some point, I think we actually Cormac this something we've talked about a lot on Arca speak right, which is we started to say you know what, you're right. Why exactly, yeah. Why yes. So now, and now I think we are kind of wondering, I don't I don't necessarily know if there's a better way, Cormac, you said, there must be a better way, I'm not quite sure there's a better way, because I don't I, it's been built like this. It's been built to work like this. And so you actually kind of do have to either look outside of Architecture at other models, or you have to figure out new ways of doing things, which takes a lot of effort when you have a deadline this week on a project. So are you actually going to be able to take the time to start? I know, this is where you come in with the Business of Architecture, right? And starting up setting up business systems for success early on, so that you can actually do your art, because you have the systems and the business in place. But but we are at a disadvantage, because this, this is the way we've always done it. Right. We've heard that so many times from from the elders in our communities, right? And also as just kind of a retort of why would we ever want to try something else, this works just fine. So there's a lot swirling around here. And so when I think about working less, I think you're right, Cormac is actually more about boundaries, I'm not actually, I don't need to work, like only a few hours a day, I need to work a normal day, I love work, I love doing a great job, I love figuring stuff out. But at the same time, I don't need to work 1618 20 hours a day to accomplish something that clearly doesn't take that much time.
Well, just as a, as a add to that. You know, we've talked on the ark speak podcast, about Evan brought this up, he's like, what would I do? If I were restarting? You know, my, my own business? And I know that you talk about this all the time you Nick. And it's really about, okay, how do we reframe and maybe detach ourselves from a lot of the bad habits that we've, you know, established, it's not talking about, you know, like, removing the grind, or really working hard to get, you know, to be successful, but it is starting to have the conversation with us, like, Why do I have to do all of these insert, whatever you do for sacrificing, you know, your, your personal life or your family time or, you know, professional growth, because you're doing other things to make sure that you know, you have your, you know, the the overhead coming in, in those are the things you know, like we had talked about, you know, tools and automation and things like that. We also talked about, you know, like, it being a mindset, and I know, you talk a lot about mindset, and you know, a mindset of why do we have to sacrifice ourselves to the greater good, if what we're trying to do is reinvent the greater good? I don't know if that made sense. But I'm going with
what the last part, what do you mean, reinvent the
system like that? If so, let's let's talk about specifically your audience. And you know, a lot of them are, are wanting to get out of the big firm culture, start their own small firm, and they're reinventing themselves. And for them, it is about either control, maybe wanting more time maybe wanting to more money. And in that, to me is the greater good that they're trying to seek when they're going in trying to do something else. And so then the question is, okay, how do you reinvent what how you practice to be able to achieve that greater good? That's what I meant.
Yeah, got it. Thank you. I mean, it was just so poetic. I needed a bit of an interpretation.
That's what I'm, that's what I'm known for. The poetry. Yeah. Beautiful,
perfect, perfect. Well, it's a great conversation I was speaking to, it's not uncommon for us to have, you know, obviously, we work with a lot of firm owners, and firm owners come to us because they want and they want a different way to do anything that it's been done in the past for some, for whatever reason, they've decided that the way we've always done it isn't good enough, I think there's something better than than the way it's been done before. And absolutely, we see a divide in our program. And I joke with our firm leaders who are maybe a little bit older than I am, and the comment about this younger generation, and it's hard to find people with work ethic and everything like that, it comes up again and again and again. And we've had the opportunity, you know, Ryan and I in the program, it's we've had some great conversations with with these firm owners, because we'll say, Well, I mean, maybe these kids have a point. Like what would it looked like if you did work less? And let's say you could keep the same income, the same proficiency the same everything else but you were actually working less with? Is that necessarily a bad thing? And then we start looking at differently like a Okay, well, that doesn't sound so bad after right? And maybe maybe we could do that.
I think part of it is because of the kind of digital native nature that these younger generations have come up in. And they recognize the power of technology and what it can do through automation. Where older generations did not have that, right. They've been maybe have transitioned into digital. And it's, it's as simple as things like parking lots and bathroom stall layouts, right? It's like, you could literally start there and never have to draw another parking lot again. But we do we choose, we make the choice to say, here's AutoCAD, which hasn't, you know, start drawing, yeah. Just start drawing and learn you. There's you definitely learn by doing that. Right. I think in a given in our last conversation, Cormac, you were you were talking about this, like, you, you were drawing, and they at the end of the day, they came up, and they crumpled the drawings up and throw them away, right? Because it was like, No, that wasn't what we were expecting. But now we know what you thought we were asking. And now we can show you how to really do it. So I'm not saying throw the baby out with the bathwater. But at the same time, it's like we literally never have to draw a parking lot from scratch. Again, you there are algorithms just to say it plainly, that can do these kinds of things. And yet, there's still a decision made every single day in firms to do these things, the manual way. And I mean, Cormac, Cormac, to your point earlier, when I said, you know, if I was going to start my own practice, today, I would choose an extremely different tool set than I would have five or 10 years ago, I would not choose kind of the the usual suspects of AutoCAD or, you know, not to say that the deliverables have really changed that much they haven't, like jurisdictions still want a PDF, and that PDF has sheets with drawings on them. But in order to get to that state, I would choose probably a different, much different and much smaller tool set than I would have before. And that just points to, you know, what I'm familiar with, with technology, and what I'm willing to accept with technology, where a lot of people are turning their back on that. And they're just saying, No, we're still going to do it, like the way we've always done, it takes this many hours and hours can be a big number, to accomplish these things when it really doesn't need to be and that's where these younger generations are gonna be like, you have to be kidding me. Like, why are we spending our time doing things that we do not need to be spending our time doing?
That's gonna get it gets very demoralizing.
Yeah, right.
You're like, why am I doing? I don't I don't see purpose here. I don't see purpose in what I'm doing, how am I contributing?
So it's interesting, you say it that way. It's like, you know, if you think about the kind of a manual way of doing drawings, I remember one time, I was told that it was, you know, on average, took about 72 hours, to do a single sheet, you know, seeing a single drawing sheet. And I extrapolate that to what I've been able to produce for, you know, current project right now, that is in the 1000s of sheets for, you know, a very large project, but still, nonetheless, you know, 1000s of sheets 1000s of details in
770 2000 hours.
So let's say, you know, there's got to be a smarter, easier way. And, you know, and I think that our smarter, easier ways, in decently, you know, decent with it right now. But I think that you're right, there is absolutely a different kind of like tool to automate certain things that we do assist in other things, you know, some of the monotony of things that we do to make a meaner, leaner kind of practice, that takes a lot of like, the monotony I mean, this is, you know, let's can go into a much deeper conversation about like, how can we leverage AI to, you know, benefit us? And, you know, how do we use the tools to, you know, to benefit us and things like that. But, you know, I always took it when we were having this conversation, you know, about the new toolbox having, as you know, there are so many ways for us to reinvent the way we practice architecture so that we can actually regain some of that, that time that we lose, by trying to overdo or over design or continue to design to the very end, things that we would normally do. It's just like, it's it's time to break ourselves at the bad habits.
That's, that's what it comes down to the bad habits. I remember. I had I had a guest on the podcast, it was a while ago. He didn't he didn't want to talk about this publicly and in respect to that, but he ran a very small practice, maybe him and a couple other people. And one thing I really enjoy just I just noticed in our podcast booking process, that he was very organized. He had automated emails that went out he had an automatic calendaring system. I'm like, I have Like this guy, he's like a systems nerd like me. I've always been the systems nerd guy, you know, it's like the little tool set to save time. And so as we're talking the conversation before we got on the air, I was kind of asking him how much he brings home from the practice whatever he I think he was making around 800,000. Right, which is damn impressive for smoke. That's way, way above the belt. I mean, as you guys know, you know, as a small firm architect, and I was like, well, you want to talk about on the choices now? I don't, I don't want to because it'll just blow people's minds. And they'll, they'll think weird things about me. And it just it never turns out to be a good conversation. Interesting.
Yeah. So the ones who are doing it well, doing it successfully don't want to talk about the ones I'm generalizing here, but he didn't want to talk about it. And like set an example, as an outlier, right? Which is crazy, because we talked on our last episode, which will, unica hope you've linked to the episode of ours, that you were just on dropped this podcast, because we talked about that scarcity mindset, you brought it up, right? This, we have this idea that these resources are precious the hours that we have is, and it's he's basically figured out ways to accomplish way more than people assume can be done as a small, firm architect, he totally doing it, but doesn't want to talk about it. Because he is going against the grain, right? Everybody else is zigging and zagging. He's gonna hopefully, and and that's, that's pretty, that's telling of kind of some of the root problems inside of I'm wondering
if in, you know, you don't have to divulge any information, you know, your conversation with, but I'm wondering if the way that he could reason why he's reluctant is more about, it's like, well, people will criticize, because I'm not doing it the way that everybody else is doing it, or I'm breaking out of the mold of how we've all done it before. And I don't want to catch, you know, all this grief for, you know, being a different architect. And, and I think that's
it for he'll be so popular with the listeners that he doesn't have time to address all these issues, and he doesn't want to become the go to person or
that or that too is just like, you know, if I give away my secrets, then people are going to start asking for their secrets. And then I won't be able to maintain that, you know, steady growth in that that steady income, because I'm too busy helping other people get to where I am. And I want to just continue to be where I am.
Yeah, I got the impression in this case, and I've heard it all because I you know, obviously working with let me let me back up a second. I haven't heard it. I have yet to have an Arkansas killer come in, you know, I've had you had yet but I've heard other than that. I've heard a lot of stuff. But certainly, you know, we get from owners will come into our program and, and we'll see certain things that are doing that are really innovative and really cool. And they'll be like, Hey, let's just keep this between us. Like don't don't talk about this on the podcast, don't don't share this with anyone else. And like, Okay, I got it, you know, so certainly there's this aspect of it still in the industry, if you're worried, let's face it, it's business as business. So sometimes if you have a competitive advantage, you might not want to share that with the whole world. In this case, I don't think that's where he was coming from, which was interesting, I thought he was coming more from karmic, from what you were saying, which is like, I just don't want to make, I don't want to become a spectacle, I just, I don't want to rock the boat, I'm not trying to be a personality, I just want to do my work over here, I have something that's working for me and, and just want to keep on trying, I
think the reason why people come to you to talk about, you know, developing a different way of doing business in architecture is because we are seeing that kind of architecture, as usual, is broken. And, you know, maybe we want to leave our firm to, to do something and it's just like, Ah, I've got an idea, I can do it better. And, you know, my firm isn't open to listening to what I want to do, or you know, my innovative ideas and stuff. So I'm gonna go and do it myself. And in, that's where, you know, the good thing about like, the pot, your podcast is, is you're bringing to light these conversations of people who are doing that. I just, you know, I'm going to throw a little plea out to that one guest or your other guests who don't want to talk about, let's talk about it. Let's let's, you know, let us have this conversation, because that's what we want to do is change the profession for the better.
Agreed, agreed. You know, it's, I love I really love what I do I love I love being an architecture still affiliated. I'm obviously not practicing anymore. But there's, you know, it's the home. It's where I came from as as a licensed, formerly practicing architect. But if you think about it among business owners, architects are so unique. Like we really are not not in a special way like, Oh, you're some special snowflake, but like, the fact that architects and the kind of are, let's face it, but we kind of are, you know, but I'm just the idea that architects generally have an artist's mind. Not every architect, you know, obviously, we got a lot of technical there's like the technical side too, but typically they're going to be they're going to be the artist types. And as artists type I was watching. I was just watching a show on Netflix the other night with I think it's so he's playlist of everything. Have you guys potentially. Okay, my wife's getting into it. And there's, there's a character on there. She's a landscape architect. And I always I would love seeing the way architects and landscape architects portrayed in the media, right? Because you're like, they would really wouldn't draw like that they, you know, they wouldn't be doing that, whatever, but it's cool. But there's this, there's this scene where she's going, and she's presenting her work to the architect. And it was, it was such a tender scene, like it actually got me emotional, because I realized, like, she was being very vulnerable. And she was being hesitant, and she was like, just not feeling confident about her design, and really hoping the architect would love what she'd done. It was kind of, there was a whole backstory wrapped up into why she was being this way. And I just thought, ah, you know, I've forgotten what that's like, you know, I've forgotten what it's like, because as an architect, we do put our hearts into what we do. There's a piece of us, we can't separate it. I know. Because when you're like when you're so I, I respect my residential architects who are out there, who they do this every day, they're basically they worked on something put their heart and soul to it. And then they're putting it in front of an architecturally maybe uneducated client, maybe highly educated in some area, but maybe not so much in design. And their, this their work, it's their baby. And that's so vulnerable and emotional. I
have a funny story about that, actually, that so so maybe, as a short aside here, a little a little bit of a rabbit hole, but I was working in the office, and I was a designer and one of the Somebody made an off the cuff remark like, Oh, you have the fun job. And in to your point, Enoch, like, Is it fun to have your baby ripped off the wall or shit on right when? Because that's what the critique process sometimes turns into. I think everybody experiences that in school, but you also experienced it in the real world. And there isn't not everybody is a designer in an office, right? It's a very small percentage. But the perception is that that's the fun job. And maybe there's that's coming from a place of jealousy, like, I wasn't picked to be one of the designers, you know, the few designers for the firm. So maybe there's a bit of that there. But But honestly, it's like, what, what are you talking about? Like, it is a very vulnerable thing. Yes, it's fun. That's why I do it. But I bet you have fun doing what you do, too, right? But But, but there was this weird kind of feeling that they put out there, like, oh, you get the fun job. And I have I do the real work around here. And I'm just thinking, when I pin my heart up on that wall, and then somebody rips it apart. Like that's actually what's happening. And it's a very vulnerable state to be in. And I think it takes a lot of guts to put stuff up on the wall, it doesn't take a lot of guts to go through and rip apart the details in the background, right. And so this is where like that, and I just, I just want to remind them, like you were you were an architecture student to you remember what it was like to go through that process. And you shouldn't forget it, because this is where the good ideas come from. And I'm not saying they just come from the sole author, like they come from this process. And there can be a lot of people involved in that process. But that's where the ideas come from, that we then spend so much time to turn into physical reality, right? Bare ideas, newborn baby fragile ideas into physical reality at some point. And that's a that's a crazy process that we go through to get there. So don't kill the babies like, right? It's just that that can be the
best, I'm gonna love us due to that we have another another episode, whether it's on yours hour or hours for that very topic, because I can go into it and talk about you know, the collective process and how, you know, a design isn't, you know, a sole ownership and, you know, and all of this other stuff, but, you know, getting back to Business of Architecture and and talking about how you know whatever we're I've lost it now that I'm all I can bring it back and bring it back about is how to tear open his his
heart I mean, going back to school INEC I don't know if you've had these conversations on your show or not. So I'm interested in your your take on this. But, you know, I think schools are training people to go work in firms and sit in cubes working at firms and they're not even though the the kind of framework of our education and licensing process is always based on the quote unquote worst case scenario, which is you are going to be self sufficient as a sole proprietor and so therefore, you need to know a lot about a lot, or at least a medium amount about a lot of different things. And because it could end up that you are the person who does it all right, that's when you go working from a specific role in a firm to starting your own firm, you went from doing a specific thing to doing it all, most likely. And that's where we don't thrive, we don't thrive doing it all. And it's hard for us to delegate to other people or even have the money maybe to hire these different roles that where people could truly excel because that's their passion. But there's a lack of kind of entrepreneurial training in schools. And I'm curious, your take on that. Because if schools really are kind of just training people to go work for other architects, and then there's this real struggle when it comes to I do want to start my own firm, because then we're not set up for that during our education. And we're not set up for it during the licensure process. Really, right. So what what's your take on this, like lack of entrepreneurial training, because architects aren't like anybody else, they do have amazing ideas, they do have a vision of the world of what it could be, that is truly incredible. And yet, it's really difficult to get started in practice, because you're kind of everybody's kind of starting from scratch.
Yeah, agreed. You know, when, when I was just thinking back to when I was in high school, and considering going into architecture, I certainly saw the educational institutions as these upstanding educational institutions whose primary motive was to educate the next generation, whatever that would look like for firms or for entrepreneurs, whatever to educate them. As I've become more immersed in business and looked at things now, like what I realized about colleges, these are businesses. Yep, totally, their businesses. And so what colleges are doing with architecture, is I look at it and what I can see what they're doing is they're selling a dream. That's all they're doing. They're marketing, the idea of being an architect. And so that's what they're doing. So they're not they're not, they're not really like their motive. Let's put it this way, they are accountable to a certain degree, for the students, they turn out because there's rankings. And there's, you know, there's reports where you can see how well people are prepared for the, for the market. So fortunately, there's some amount of accountability there. So I believe there is some pressure on on the educational institutions to not completely blow it as it comes to architects education. But what I do notice is that at least the school I went to a lot of the schools, they really focus on the design aspect. Like, it's almost like everyone's trying to turn out the designers, because that's what everyone wants to do it. Right. You know, and so you have this flood of people who all think they're designers or wannabe designers, and, and they're, they're selling the dream, they're like, Hey, come to architecture school. And here's this, this inaccurate picture of what it's like to be an architect. Yeah, you know, you get to design all these cool buildings and everything. And then that's reinforced in school. So when I was in school, I definitely felt that stereotype reinforced the kind of work we were doing. I mean, we were doing, like, we were like, the next generation of Lakota Bucha. You know, we were like doing crazy stuff that had nothing to do with our kids. It was fun, it was fun. And it was definitely creative and everything. But yeah, as to relating to the workforce, not not directly,
but it was a dishonest picture of what architecture and let's just say the Business of Architecture is really all about because I wouldn't even contain everything that they aren't really producing, you know, firm grade architects, you know, in college is because, as somebody who has to bring them in and onboard them, and, and things like that, they're not prepared for the profession, as you know, we would if they were, you know, essentially going to, like, say, a tech school or something like that, that they would otherwise be. But I think the impression that everyone gets is like, you know, this is what, you know, like, this is the, you know, let's just the corporate was a the Frank Lloyd Wright. You know, here's the cake, the cane, that big hat, you know, here's the fancy, you know, this is the architect that we're trying to create. And this is what we want, you know, this is the impression that we want to give, you know, the world is what architects are, but they're, they're being a bit disingenuous in limiting them to saying, it's all about design, it's all about this kind of like, you know, hero moves of design rather than the Oh, and by the way, you know, if you want to, like, you know, bring in clients or give presentations, or do all of this stuff, you have to do all of this stuff as well, because then they throw it on the profession, to basically do all of the OJT do the boot camp and things like that. And so
military man he's saying here, exactly. Well, I agree with what you're saying, Enoch, about them selling the vision because that they have a certain number of slots that they need to fill in, because that's the business that they're in. Right. And so I agree with that. And at the same time, I wouldn't want modern press Access to run these courses or these education programs either Lully. Right, because that would be brutal. I mean, we're already in a race to the bottom in our profession, with most firms going after less and less fees, working more and more hours to accomplish. Yeah, right. It's kind of crazy making. And that's where we're seeing the pushback from the younger generations, right. So I wouldn't want them to be in charge of that curriculum, either. And so it's like, you kind of want to cherry pick because we, we don't have an organization in this profession that has the right incentives, either. We only have like a couple of national organizations. And they're also incentivized as businesses themselves to bring in revenue. And so their business is tailored to do exactly that. It's either through dues, or through non do kind of revenue generation, right. And that, that's what it's about, because they're paying their people to do to run their business. So it is kind of interesting that there's all of these kind of competing interests and incentives, that this ecosystem that we all swim in, in architecture and AEC. And none of it is making the profession. Notice that notably better to go into the future in a better place than it is now. Yeah,
great. It's, it's, it's just so interesting. I love just talking about it thinking the puzzle, looking at, you know, looking at some of the other because architecture is it's a technical profession. So it's basically a trade. You know, this may not land good for us professionals, but like we all went to trade school. Yeah. You know, it's like, it's like you're going because a normal degree obviously is like a liberal arts education, you look at some of the way the other look at the way the other professional careers happen. So for instance, law, medicine, like medicine, doctors go through medical school, they may have an undergraduate go through medical school, then they go to a residency, right. And a residency program, it's very different than an architectural internship. Because the it's like, it's almost like the firm owners are charged with paying for the education of these architects is what ends up happening, right.
Yeah. Transitioning from education to practice. Exactly. Yeah, that's
right. Yeah, yep. And the firm owners, they they bear the cost of that, because like you, Cormac I was thinking, when I came out of school, I was worthless as doing I mean, I was, I could do some details, some RCEP plans, or whatever, you know, reflected ceiling plans, you know, and just some tile layouts or whatever, follow some simple and put this hatch here, put that there, you know, but in terms of actually being useful, I mean, it took me a couple years, before I really got a grasp on how building went together.
Yeah, I mean, a, I was a little bit different. Because
you were lucky last night, on a program you went to was different, though, right? The the, you had a different
program was but you know, the path of, you know, I was in the army first, then I went to college, and I sort of ran out of money, and had to drop out of college for a little while, but actually was lucky enough to get landed job with an architecture firm for four years, and was basically doing what I would be doing after graduation, sort of mid mid school. And then, you know, I went back out. And in fact, actually, it made me a little bit more marketable, because they're like, Oh, you've got four years of experience, you actually can put together a set of construction documents and things like that. And in, in, in evidence, right, I mean, we aren't necessarily looking to be 100%, kind of, like, you know, a vo tech type school where, you know, you're, you're learning this, but there are other aspects to the educational process that we're leaving blank in the professions, leaving it blank to in your, you know, you're highlighting it in just what you do on a daily basis is like, you know, we are, let's use it, you said it better than I am about to say it, so. But we're terrible at business. You know, we were coming up because we don't know, we have, like, where are the classes in innovative businesses practices? Where are just the basic business classes? Where is the, you know, seminars on entrepreneurial ship, you know, where are those things that would help us thrive as a business because then because, you know, if you if you start taking that and wrapping it into kind of what I was saying about, you know, just doing it, you know, like the bad habits and, you know, perpetuating the bad habits is, if we're given the tools to practice business, and architecture at the same time, we are the creative, you know, we're the, the creative profession that would actually probably do do a much better job of creating a, a successful business if we have the tools for it. But we, you know, we're always playing from behind every time we, you know, we start, you know, like, we, we work for a firm, you know, we don't really learn anything about us, okay? We're, we're, you know, disillusioned and we want to start our own practice. We started our own practice, but we're, we're playing from behind, because we don't have that business acumen to just jump into it. So we're, we're making it up as we go along. And, you know, as I said, on the when we were talking, I'm a living proof of that I jumped in started my own practice. You know, I could say that I could blame, you know, the await recession, as you know, a part of one of the reasons why I'm not in business anymore. But I would also say it's like just the complete lack of understanding about business in general, that I didn't know that I needed to basically shore up for the, you know, for the hard times, I was just like, oh, yeah, we're doing good. And then when all of my clients are saying, I'm not doing good, and pulling their contracts and in canceling contracts and things like that, and I'm like, now what? In, you know, and those are the things that I know that you talk about on your podcast, a lot about how to weather the storms?
Absolutely, yeah, I was. It's fun. Sometimes in our program we get, we get architecture firms that have partners who are from outside of architecture. So every now and then, we get business, people who are very service business savvy business, people who decide to throw their hat in the ring with an architect. Now, I might advise against this. But they do. And it's so interesting, because when they come in, like I was just talking, I was just talking with a woman who's a partner in a firm right now she was brought in from the outside. She's not actually a partner, but she was brought into kind of a management role. And she comes from another industry, the medical field, right? And but not on the doctor medical side on like, equipment. So it's more
of a medical administration type. Yeah, that kind of
deal, right? So she gets she gets management, she gets it, she understands how teams work and everything, right? And she comes in here, and she's like, so I'm talking to her. And she says, I just, I don't understand, I don't get it, why these architecture firms run like this. It's just like, in any other business, when you're closing a contract, you have a whole team of people who are closers. They have the salesperson profile, they're going in there, they're getting the deal. They're doing the negotiation, they're landing it, right. And then you have these architecture firms that are all architects, you know, and so, like, I get it, because I'm in the industry, and I understand why it is the way it is. And I get the point she's making I say, Yeah, you know, for these architects to really succeed, they have to be they've got to have some sales ability, they got to have some marketing ability. If not, they got to learn it. And that's painful for us artists to try to learn because if you almost look at those two profiles, the artist profile and the sales slash marketing profile, the origins look closer, but generally speaking, they're on the far sides of the spectrum. I
wish I had a little glass of oil and water and see how those mix. kids ate.
Yeah, shake it up first. Yeah, yes. Yeah. mixes. So I just want to touch here, as we wrap up, gentlemen, something that you said, Evan, which is boundaries. At the beginning, I thought that was such a great topic. Because when people come into smart practice, I often ask them, like, how much are you working. And generally, the small firms we work with, generally, they have decent hours, like I keep it to 40, I keep it to 45. I occasionally get people I'm working 60. And what I've learned over time is like, whatever, however much work you have, it will expand to fill the amount of time that you allow it. So it's your life, you got to create those boundaries. You have to like I have a woman who is in our practice. She was in smart practice a couple years ago, and she's a mother. And so she came in with very clear intention. She says, I own I want to build a practice, but I only want to work 20 hours a week. Is that possible? I said yes. It's possible as long as those your boundaries as possible. The minute you start taking on work outside of that hour, because you have to then it becomes not possible. But the boundaries. Was that ever. You mentioned boundaries? What did you mean by that? What did you mean?
Well, yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Because I think if you don't stay focused on that, those boundaries blur. And so I'm curious to hear from you now that you brought that story up. Like how do you guys coach people to do that? Because I think this is one of those things that if you're not really clearly paying attention to it, you lose sight of it, and it does happen. And then it's kind of like boiling the frog a little bit here a little bit there. And then pretty soon you're like, your wife, your wife, my wife is freaking out. What are you doing? You are way too overextended, and it's like, how did that even I don't even know how that happened. You'll throw your hands up. I didn't even notice that it happened until that It already happened. And so I'm really curious, like, how do you, because I think part of it is accountability, a part of it is systems. There's many components to help you along the way. But again, kind of going back to school and what we were trained in doing to work hard for long hours, that is ingrained. And then we have to kind of sand that grain down and get back to a really smooth surface so that we can build better habits. And so coming from one place and moving to another, like, like you, that takes time to get from one habit system to another habit system, but what kind of tools do you help people employ to actually accomplish sticking to those kinds of boundaries? Yeah,
well, certainly there's, so it's up to them to stick to the boundaries for starters, right? So they have their responsibility, this is what I want. So when they when they're clear, and they say, This is what I want, this is what I want to create. It's like, okay, we can work with that, let's, let's look at the different variables here. And let's figure out how to make something work for that particular situation. So certainly systems can help out some automations. Typically, you know, making sure that everyone in the firm is best utilized, meaning that if you're the owner, you're not taking out the trash. If you're the owner, you're not doing stuff that someone else at a lesser pay rate could do. But the biggest lever, the biggest levers charging more. And what most architects don't realize, and it's difficult to difficult conversation, because we like to think that how much we charge is dependent upon our competition are dependent upon the market or dependent upon things outside of our control. But the truth is, is that within there's going to be a spread, there's people who are charging on the high end of the market. And if you look at one market, one, one type, let's say, luxury residential are the architects in that market going after those projects, you'll have some, you know, that just the 8020 rule, you'll have like 20%, who are winning 80% of the fees. So we'll have some who are extremely highly priced, and have others who are scraping to get by. And so the first one of the big things that you know, one of the first steps and the biggest levers that we have, as we consult with architects is understanding that you can there's a lot of Delta there a lot more than you think there is with how much you can charge. But it comes down to two key skills, marketing and selling. So with the skills of that's what that's what the skills are in business. That's what other other industries call them in architecture, we call it business development. Right? It's like a pseudonym, because selling is a bad word, but like you go everywhere else. True. It's like it's selling and marketing. That's what it is. So you know, you look at Gucci, right? A Gucci handbag, or some of these very high end luxury items. Are they that much better, or well more constructed? Or better stylish than the other stuff you can buy at a cheap, like, like 100 times cheaper? No, well, why are they able to charge that? It's because they understand positioning, they understand packaging, they understand marketing, they understand creating a persona and ethos around the around this product. So when we start to apply those things to architectural practices, then you can begin to move up very rapidly in how much money you're making. And at the end of the day, that's as much as we hate to say it, that's what it comes down to when you're when you bring
so are you using that as a filter of the kind of work that you're accepting and therefore doing and so maybe you're doing less, but at a much higher rate. So you actually are able to keep those boundaries? Are you using that another way?
Well, there's those both of those. So like, if you brought me, let's say, a client came to, let's say, a client came to you, and and as you're going through the project for them, even that one client has a range that they're willing to pay you. Okay, so there's probably the low range there, they have a low range, they won't pay you less than a certain amount, because they'd be worried about you giving them a good service. So there's probably a minimum amount they want to pay you. And they probably have a maximum amount they want to pay you. And you can even press that maximum amount to more than they would have thought that they would have paid you. Right. So that delta, all things being equal, the guy who knows how to sell better is going to be able to approach that maximum rate that the person is willing to pay. Now this on the face of it, architects, sometimes when we look at this, we might have ethical prop, why would I want to charge someone more? That seems unethical to try to get someone's maximum price? But we need to understand that? Yes, if you're ripping people off and providing a crappy service, that's unethical. My experience is most architects aren't my experience. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. My experiences. Most architects, if they earn more money, they're probably going to put a lot more of that money into the design into providing a good client experience into making the whole process better. So what we stand for here at VOA is like, is standing for charging as much as you can. Not because I'm going to be the guy who gives a shoddy product and rips people off. No, no, no, because we're going to charge a premium fee. But we're going to back that up with exceptional service because we have the ability to do that. So to answer your question, Evan Yeah. There's a couple of different things, there's, there's marketing can certainly increase, you know, the perception of your product, how its presented, even how you dress, how you talk, how you speak. So that's like the packaging of it. And then also your ability to handle a conversation to take someone through a sales process, we use something that we've developed over the past 10 years called the compassionate conversation, which is a great way for consultative, taking some through a consultative framework where you're actually disqualifying them and not selling them. So it's very useful. And it helps architects be able to figure out that top that top price, I'm losing the word now, but like I remember, in economics, there's like, is this like an equilibrium price or whatever it's like, we're, we're demand meet supply. But it's, it's variable, it's a lot more variable than we think. And so that's the, that's what we go for is like the biggest lever. And this is just let's get really good at capturing the best fee that you can for your services. And then it makes everything else so much easier.
Yeah, that's a great, that's a great point. And I definitely learned something in that short explanation, even there, but but it rings true. Because by doing that, you're creating an alignment, before you say yes to the job, right? In that alignment, then you feel like okay, no, we're totally going to deliver, we're going to deliver the highest quality at the, at the right price, not at the best price, not the lowest price, the right price. Because you're meeting everybody's expectations there, there's no, there's no worry that you're that you're charging too much or too little for too good or too bad of a of an outcome. But the idea that you're creating that alignment, so that when you're going through that process, it everybody who works in design knows that good design takes time. Right? Good design takes time, in order to have time to do good design, you need a good income to accomplish that. Right. So you're creating this alignment through that whole system, so that you're not overextending yourself in one of those categories of missile potential misalignment there.
Yeah. Yeah. And to further because I kind of, there's a part of the question I didn't answer, but so it does involve like, there's a number of strategies to do it, Evan, we talked about selling better, which is being able to extract more money. And I say, extract that sounds kind of kind of one sided, but earning more money for your services from a client. And then of course, there is maybe moving to a new target market, identifying a top tier of clients who can, who can afford these kinds of services. So we're, we're big advocates that the best way that we can serve the world and move forward all these ideas of sustainability and equality is by is by actually making architecture very profitable profession. And on that, I just want to say one last thing, and I'd love to get your guys's kind of closing remarks here. I've seen this very interesting thing. And this is, this is not PC, or it may be PC, I don't know, we'll see how much hate email I get from this from the audience. But what I found is that people of color, or minorities here in the US, are typically a lot more driven on the business side, to make things work in architecture. Okay, so like the firm owners we have, they're just, it seems like the populations are typically maybe more disadvantaged in the profession, women, people of color people from disadvantaged backgrounds, they, when they come into our program, we there's a noticeable difference in their hunger to actually like not only do great design, but they're like, yeah, no, we actually want to make money too. There's one of the members of our program, he's a first he's a he's a second generation American. He grew up as a kid in the Central Valley under great fines while his mother would pick and harvest, which is mad, crazy labor. I mean, the outbreak and she would have her kids out there because you'd have daycare. So he would just kind of grew up in the fields helping his mom and just being out there on day, right? This kid decided to go to school, loved architecture, decided to go into architecture came to me said Hey, Nick, I love your podcast, we're motivated, we want to do great design and I I'm heck I'm in this I want to earn a lot of money to came in. And like within the first two months, he had bank like $200,000 with the contracts. Like he was on fire. He was on fire able to buy a new house for himself and his wife and their new baby that was on the way in the Los Angeles area. You know, and so it blows my mind.
Yeah, right. I mean, you said the magic word right? Like hungry is like scrappy. It's, it's just this we've I want to accomplish big things and I'm gonna do that through dedication and work. But for all the right reasons, right like that, to me is I love I love hearing stories like that because again, like we're not We're not afraid of doing hard work as architects, but I think a lot of times we approach it from a scarcity mindset. People don't want to pay that much money. People want less design people, you know, and it's like this, just this perception. And I think the more we think like that, the more it's true, right? It's, it's one of those self fulfilling prophecies where if you have that scarcity mindset, that is going to be the reality for you. And so I love hearing these stories, because they are really inspiring. And I know you share a lot of that kind of stuff on your on the podcast and the work that you're doing a business of architectures. I mean, just to be able to share that story alone gives people an idea of what's possible. And to go back to your earlier story of the architect who is bringing in 800k a year, it's like, I think we need models like that, for the general architectural population, to see that it's possible, but also to aspire to be more like that, because it totally is, there isn't that scarcely, there's so much work that needs to be done in the architectural realm. You know, there's all these stories about, you know, the building stock of today has to be doubled by 2050. Right? How's that gonna happen? Yeah. Are you telling me that there's not very much work for architects? Are you telling me that you can't you have to do it for less money? Are you telling me like, there's plenty of work? Right. And so I it's not a scarce resource, now. abundant resource? How do we how do we make our livelihoods doing what we what we were put here to do what like this is, where we can create a meaningful difference in the built environment for the population at large.
Yeah, we're all about so here, at Business of Architecture, we're all about changing the world to sustainability, having more, having more inclusion, having more diverse in the profession, like we're all in on these ideas, you know, but we're all in on a different way of doing it than is generally accepted. We're all in on, hey, let's teach them how to market and sell. Let's get them in there hungry, give them entrepreneurial skills, give them opportunity, and let them absolutely crush it, change the profession. And if this profession becomes more lucrative, more people want to come into it. Right? If it's more lucrative, to be more opportunities for women to be able to balance demands, if they want to be a mother, or maybe they get pulled away from the job for pregnancy, these things will be more possible, because the economy, you know, professions more lucrative. If the profession is not lucrative, then if a woman gets pregnant, she's going to take family leave, or a husband takes family because his wife had a baby or his partner had a baby. It's like, shoot, this is now that firm owners like in hardship, because they're not making any money, it comes down to money. Right?
Right. Right.
Cormac, what do you what
he said? Or what he said, whichever, whichever. Honest, honestly, I mean, you guys did a good summary. I mean, I will definitely say that, you know, the stories that I hear from people who basically had to fight to get to where they are, are usually the ones who will want to keep fighting to get to, you know, because they've always, you know, the reason why, in a all white, all male dominated profession, they're like, you know, I want to, I know, I can do this, I want to fight to, to do this. And have always been scrappers always been somebody who's, you know, fought to, to make a better life for themselves. And they're the ones in in I've got a great friend who key he decided one day that he was going to walk away from a firm that he probably would have ended up, you know, either being a partner at or probably even owning, once the the firm owner, retired, but he wanted to make he's always made it his way, and wanted to continue to make it his way. And, you know, you want to talk about one of the scrappiest people I've ever known, that, you know, fights for it every single day, and doesn't take crap from anyone you know about it. Because he's just like, look, I don't, I don't care if you guys think that I'm, you know, selling out because I'm earning money. I'm earning money, because that's what I am doing this because I want to earn money. I'm not doing this just out of like the kindness of my heart. I mean, yes, I am doing this because it's a passion, and I love to do it. But I'm doing it also, because I want to provide for my family, I want to provide for myself, I want to have the things that I didn't have when I was growing up in India, right? I mean, the people who, you know, have encountered most of the hardship or most of the pushback from the profession, are usually the ones that succeed more than the ones who just kind of like walk in and have that very, almost entitled attitude. You know,
but, yeah, that's my drop. That's good. Give it around, wrap it up. Say no to entitlement and say yes to entrepreneurialism, this is the future. Right? The good news is there's always going to be opportunity for people who are willing to think innovatively to do the work to improve themselves to look for solutions to think that it's possible. Instead of just looking at odds, it's impossible developers, they don't want to pay us what we're worth. like, Damn, if you actually learned how to market sell, negotiate, you'd find out those developers have deeper pockets than you think they do. Here. Gentlemen, thank you for being on the show today.
Appreciate thanks for having us on
a pleasure. And that's a wrap. Oh, yeah, one more thing. If you haven't already, head on over to iTunes and leave a review, we'd love to read your name out here on the show. This episode is sponsored by Smart practice, the world's leading step by step business training program that's helped more than 103 architecture firm owners structure their existing practice. So the complexity of business doesn't get in the way of their architecture. Because you see, it's not your architecture design skills that's holding you back. It's the complexity of running a business, managing projects and people dealing with clients, contractors and money. So if you're ready to simplify the running of your practice, go to business of architecture.com forward slash smart to discover the proven simple and easy to implement smart practice method for running a practice that doesn't get in the way of doing exceptional architecture. The views expressed on the show by my guests do not represent those of the hosts and I make no representation, promise guarantee, pledge, warranty, contract, bond or commitment, except to help you conquer the world. Carpe Diem.
