Care of Magical Shippers Episode 7 - Siriusly. It's about Wolfstar, we swear!

2:56AM Jul 30, 2021

Speakers:

Care of Magical Shippers Podcast

Megs

Nathan

Caller [via Voicemail]

Keywords:

sirius

regulus

remus

harry

feel

people

gryffindor

dumbledore

absolutely

snape

talk

laughter

slytherin

hogwarts

lupin

grow

fic

voldemort

book

point

Hello there listener. Yes, you specifically. You should know that sometimes due to the things we discuss on the pod, it might contain potentially triggering content. But the good news is, you can always review the episode descriptions for a full list of the warnings applicable to this episode. Oh, and just so you know, this podcast is rated R for really filthy. It includes adult themes and explicit content. So if you're an adult, buckle up, gird your loins and prepare to flood the basement, because we are going down with these ships.

Hi, guys, I absolutely love the podcast so far. You guys hooked me from the very beginning with your conversation about how Wolfstar has always felt very canonical. And I could not agree more. It's such a compelling, complicated love story. And it's just my favorite ship to read. I assume you guys are gonna have a Wolfstar episode at some point in the future. And I just wanted to implore you to read 'Pot Kettle Black' by the divine comedian. It's only 8000 words, but it's just such a great piece of fiction, I really truly think that this author could write professional fiction if she wanted to. It's just really creative and clever how this fic is structured. And you'll see what I mean when you read it. The story itself is mostly about Sirius, about his demons and his relationship with Remus and his complicated relationship with his brother to Regulus. It's just it's, it's poignant. It's funny, and it's really moving. It's easily one of my favorite pieces of fanfiction. And I hope you guys read it, I'd love to hear what you think.

Thank you so much for contacting us and calling in and for that voicemail. It's really great to finally be hearing from you guys. So Nathan and I gave that fic a read. And from my point of view, I was not anticipating how I mean how I would I love I love drama. Obviously, we talk about that a lot, just how heavy it was. And it really gets into Sirius specifically, not just like the relationship between him and Remus and the trauma that follows him from his childhood. And what he carries with him from his day to day life. I thought the use of the Auror questions was really interesting, like a mental health screening was, I can't say that I know whether he didn't get - I don't know, maybe if you guys read this thing, and you can probably clarify for me, or I don't think he became an Auror. He just kept doing stuff for the order, I believe. But yeah, to see the vulnerability of Sirius and even Remus and the life that he has to lead. And then of course, when we get closer to the end, we have Sirius and Regulus. And that final scene to kind of like avoid, you know, spoiling things was just really intense. And of course is sad. But also. Yeah, I was when it was over I was like "this is it? This is the end? I need to understand more! Like this - this can't be everything." But yeah, so that was a journey, for sure. So thank you so much for sharing that with us. And yeah, keep contacting us keep telling us your recommendations. We want to read what you like and find out more about them. So thank you so much for calling.

[Intro theme] You're on the canon ground, I'm up in crackship space. Let's start a shipping war, don't care if I get hate. Don't like my pairings? Well, then you can hit the bricks. This is my OTP. I'll go down with this ship. I don't care! I ship it. I don't care. I ship it...

Welcome to Care of Magical Shippers. It's a Harry Potter ship culture podcast.

Yes it is.

I'm Nathan.

And I'm Megs.

Today we're going to be talking more Wolfstar! I'm very excited.

Wolfstar! Yes, very exciting. Because this is your - yeah, this is your OTP.

Yeah, I mean, this is well I hesitate to call it my OTP because there are so many that I love. And you know as we as we keep doing the pod, I'll keep finding more that I'm like, "okay, yes, I'm sold." But I feel like this is a this is a byproduct of reading your fics where I start with a trope that I'm like "this is completely cursed." And then by the end of it, I'm just like, "oh crap. I'm sold." [Laughter]

Well let's say probably an orig - like an original one like, you love it. You still, you still love it. You started there.

Yeah. Yeah. I started, I started loving it and I'm still there. Because, you know, I came away from Book Three, as I've already discussed with feelings that Sirius and Remus should be together because there was so much tension between them. And that and, you know, and I can't be the only person in the world that thinks that obviously...

Obviously, you're not. [she laughs]

...because it's such a popular ship. But I'm but I'm so excited to talk about it in detail with you. Because this is the first time I think roles have reversed where it's like,

Yes.

...we're talking about a ship that is, is not your OTP but it's mine. And it's gonna be a really weird experience.

You're welcome.

Because normally you're like, "Oh my god, Draco. Oh my god, Snape. Oh, my God. UST." [Both laugh]

Oh my god, Tom! [laugh] UST! Yes.

Well, we both love that.

Enemies to lovers. Yes, yes.

Yes! I mean, we we mostly end up agreeing anyway. So I don't know what I think my problem is.

No exactly. [laughter] Don't blame this on me. Don't put - you're the one asking me questions in regards to things I love, so [laughter]

So talking about the things we love this week. Okay. So we've obviously, obviously just finished talking to the amazing BigBlackDog about her writing, but I feel like we just needed an extra episode to maybe talk about some of the things we didn't touch on in our last one. So with that in mind, let's talk about... who do you want to talk about first - Sirius or Remus?

Let's Ooooh, ooh Ooh Ooh ooh! Sirius. [laugter] Like, I was like which one? Which one? Pick one! Sirius? Let's start with Sirius.

So do we want to talk about his origins first, and then go up through Azkaban? Because because any discussion of Sirius has to be set against his growing up in Grimmauld Place, his problematic legacy with the Black family, his massive complex that grew out of having been an heir to this incredibly dark, pureblood family that had a really a vested interest in, if not a vested interest in the ideals of that Tom Riddle would come to espouse, certainly a really dark, really, you know, I think the family motto was like Toujours Pur or is, was that was that Malfoys?

I have no idea. So I-- this is my turn to nod along. [laughter]

So I so I'm thinking specifically about the scene where Harry and Sirius are in Grimmauld Place in book five and they're looking at his sort of family tapestry, where his mother had like blasted a load of holes in the parchment to get rid of, you know, unsavory characters that didn't uphold the family values. And I feel like underneath the Black crest, there's a family motto. And I think if my memory holds, the motto is Toujours Pur, which is obviously French for Always Pure.

Oh. obviously. [laughter]

So Sirius, was, it was all always going to come into conflict with that ideology.

Right.

And it was only a matter of time before his hot-headed temperament was gonna fly in the face of, you know, years of family tradition, and really, at best, problematic legacy. So I know you have a lot of thoughts about Regulus.

Right.

We'll, maybe we'll maybe get onto that later.

Yeah.

But I feel like you can't really talk about Sirius, because the temptation would be to almost look at him as an only child, right?

Yeah.

Because we we've seen Sirius, we know him, we've been exposed to, to what he's like. But also he was he's not only been growing up in response to a lot of pressure from his parents, but also from his younger sibling who really wants to do his best - what he thinks is his best - by his family. So Sirius is the, sort of the odd one out, the sore thumb that sticks up. And I and I feel like for-- So from day one, he has this rebel image of you know, being the one that doesn't fit the mold, that isn't going to go along to get along. And I wonder if this is why, despite everything else that may or may not have happened to the character, that people really warm to him. Because they know what it's like to grow up in adversarial conditions. Let's call it that.

Yeah.

I can pretend that I'm, I know what I'm saying. [laughter]

No, No, that's very true.

I feel with with him That, you know, I get a lot of warmth for him whenever he starts talking about being able to break away from that and go and live with the Potters, because then it gives him more of the breathing room to be the sort of the Gryfindor that he was meant to be. He is essentially around his own kin. And I feel like there's a real sense of I mean, I relate to that a lot where, you know, you don't necessarily grow up around people who resonate with you the best.

Yeah,

And when you when you get a chance to go out and explore and find your, you know, find people that resonate with you that you maybe weren't expecting to, it's such a, it's a liberating time. And I feel like because Sirius-- we associate Sirius a lot of the time with like, the incarceration that he faced in Azkaban, but of course, he was imprisoned in a different way in his childhood home, as well. So poor Sirius has had a lot of time behind bars, either literally or figuratively. And I think that sense of claustrophobia, that sense of feeling trapped in your own life, is something that I can definitely relate to. And I'm sure, you know, a lot of listeners can as well. And I think that's, character-wise, personally, why he's stuck out to me, and yeah,

Yeah, for sure. I mean, we all can-- a lot of us can see that family isn't always blood, you know, we find our family in other places and Sirius definitely does that. Something that I am curious about, you know, getting into obviously, he's the rebel, he breaks away from his family. He wants to be different. As far as we know, he doesn't follow their values. I don't know if it's. I'm curious if he started still, with the kind of pure blood point of view just having grown up in it, and when that changed? You know, because you think of like an 11-year-old of like, is, are you, are they all of a sudden aware that like, oh, pure blooded mentality is wrong? I mean, James, his best friend is a pure blood. So it's not like, I'm just wondering what, other than just being a little shit that wants to, you know, just break away from his family. Like, was he fighting with the sorting hat? Kind of like how the sorting hat wanted to put Harry in Slytherin?

Yeah.

Was he like, Oh, yeah, Black, you're gonna, He's like, whoa, whoa whoa, no, I don't want to be in Slytherin. I want nothing to do with that, like, my parents suck. Like I don't- you know, I just

Yeah,

I could see him wanting to make that choice like him. Just like Dumbledore said, like, it's our choices, not you know, that become who we are. So I feel like he would have made that choice and then being in Gryffindor, being exposed to either it be James or befriending Remus and seeing his point of view of where he came from, his ailment with being a werewolf, and how how people are treated when they are different. I think that that helps all of the Marauders grow. I don't think they started as 11 thinking that pure blood is meant, you know, is bad. So that's just kind of my thoughts there. I could see an 11 year old Sirius just being like, you know. What do we know what age it is that he actually leaves home?

Erm, I feel like it is mentioned, but I don't know, offhand. I feel like it's either 15 or 16.

Yeah, I mean, it's so he's going home, you know, on breaks as far as we know. I mean, obviously, he's probably spending a lot of time at the, you know, with James and his family or whoever. But yeah, I just think it's interesting to see him at a younger age. It's not like, you know, it's not like the Marauders were. The Marauders weren't what we see, like the Order of the Phoenix in the lightning era, like with Harry and being like, pure blood ism is stupid. It's wrong. wizards are wizards and all of that, but it goes-- it's like anything you go back in time, thought process are different. The way we see the world is different. The things we say are different that today would be very problematic or hurtful.

Yeah, absolutely.

So we just can we can understand that. But yeah, with Sirius, I just I love that the fact that he is the rebel is what makes him very like endearing to me. Like it makes him like feisty and fun. And of course we talk about like his attractiveness. And we of course we did the Tomarry episode and I'm curious. So I'm really curious about him how much Sirius knows how attractive he is and how he uses it to his advantage. Because often we like read him as potentially, if it's not Wolfstar you know that back in school like kind of a ladies man or just kind of a fuck boy going around doing, you know, doing his thing?

Absolutely No, he absolutely.

Yeah, So he's just like a peacock flat and flaunting around winking at everybody. And so I just I-- What I love when it comes to the idea, I haven't read a lot. But when I take the time to stop and think about Wolfstar is Sirius, being super confident and behaving in such a way and Remus kind of like being quiet and afraid to like share his feelings for Sirius and maybe Sirius is like navigating around not accepting the fact that he might be gay or bi or something other than what people perceive to be the normal.

Yeah.

And then once they're able to come together, I just think they as characters-- Remus can help him, you know, help Sirius chill out and then Sirius helps Remus break out of his shell. So I think that they complement each other so well, in that regard.

Yeah, I-- No, I couldn't agree more. But I sort of feel like going back to your first point about seeing him at a younger age, being confronted with different values when he's at school age, and he's being sorted and whether it's not whether or not he's a hot stall. I think it's really interesting, because you don't necessarily know what the Sorting Hat's perspective is, like, does the Sorting hat sort students based on who they are as people when they're 11? Or does it sort based on potential

Yes

And the probability that they'll evolve into certain kinds of people? Because it'd be really interesting to think that the sorting hat is able to sort of use its laser of focus or whatever it does to, to, to, you know, pry into Sirius' mind and go, Okay, well, he's, he currently espouses this set of values that isn't very, you know, what we would call progressive, but he has the potential to grow into a certain version of himself, and therefore, you know, he'll be sorted into Gryffindor, you know. Or, or is it that those values are innate to him? And they've just been repressed because of the environment that he's grown up in? These are the sorts of questions that keep me up at night.

Yes!

And listeners, if you have an opinion on this, please get in touch and let me know what you think. Because your opinion is important to me. And I need to know what you know. Because, as a Ravenclaw, knowledge is everything. Give me Give me your opinions. I need them. Thank you.

It's, yeah, it's funny, because I mean, we talk continuing the sorting hat thing, like when Harry is sorted, and he's obviously you know, has that hat stall. The sorting hat talks about the potential, right? Like he's like, Oh, you don't want to be in Slytherin? like Slytherin obviously is going to help you be your best self. And Harry doesn't want that. He's like, Okay, I guess you know, sure, fine Gryffindor. But then there's someone like Draco who sits down and barely even touches his head, and he's like, Oh, yeah, Slytherin? Well, then you could see potentially depending on how we see Draco, redemption arcs, whatnot, that wouldn't necessarily be an opportunity to see potential, if you think about it, like depending on who Draco becomes. So that's, I don't know, like I just so then, because if Sirius was a Black, he could have been an instance, you would think that the hat could just be like, Oh, yeah, you're a Slytherin, your whole family has been Slytherin. And so I just I want to know that conversation, like what happened between Sirius and the hat that made him move toward the Gryffindor route? Or if it literally was just instantly Gryffindor? That was like, Oh, I can see the change in who you the change that's coming. Yeah, no, that's really, really interesting.

So in my head canon about the hat, the reason it makes certain decisions really quickly, and it takes a while over others is if there's a disagreement between the hat's verdict, and the person being sorted. So the reason it takes longer with Harry is because you know, he doesn't want to be in Slytherin and so there's this back and forth. I think the reason it just instantly sorted Draco into Slytherin is because Draco had the preconceived idea that he wanted to be sorted into Slytherin. And the sorting hat was like, okay, you're going to be in Slytherin.

Yeah, he sat down. He's like, yeah, I'm going to be in Syltherin, duh! And then he's just like, okay, here's Slytherin and where, and then Sirius sits down, and he's just like, Oh, I'd better not fuckin' be in Slytherin and the hat's like, okay, I guess we got to think about this. Although now I'm curious. Now. It's like, so obviously, people like harp on Slytherin. And I mean, I'm a Slytherin. And and obviously, there are positive qualities of being a Slytherin. So it's interesting.

Absolutely, yeah.

It's interesting to see two instances where the hat went, someone potentially should have could have been in Slytherin, but then was put in Gryffindor, like, where's that overlap between? Where's that line between Slytherin and Gryffindor? When is that shift? Like, why wasn't it like, oh, you're not going to be in Slytherin you'll be a Hufflepuff because you're some kind of way or it's just we see two instances where that happens, which I think it's really interesting. And I don't know if that I mean, you could also go back to the Founders and seeing like, oh, what was the relationship between Godric and Salazar? Like, who as far as like how things mend together, they put the brains in the hat. So I imagine the personalities would go in as well if you think about it, so if they were like, I think they were the, you know, as far as the four were friends, but they were among the closest I mean, if I understand correctly, and obviously the rift was really big between them, and that's why he left. So yeah, I don't know. Oh, this is sorting hat lore. Here we go. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I hadn't intended for it to be a massive like, sorting hat discussion. But I definitely, I feel like it's important and relevant to the discussion generally. Because when we got onto Remus, I have feelings about his sorting as well. But okay, so, so yeah, I definitely feel like Gryffindor and Slytherin colored the hearts perception a little bit. But I feel broadly that ultimately, it's a bit reductive to reduce children to like, okay, you fit into one of these four archetypes when broadly speaking, you know, we're all Hogwarts students here. You know, we were all magical. And we all belong in this school, regardless of where you fit on the spectrum, in and in what house. So the point is, is that you're the point that doesn't get emphasized enough is that everybody has capacity, and everybody is brilliant, regardless of where they end up. But it's just it is interesting, particularly when we look at serious because of when we look at the potential biases that he's had to grow up through, and the the sort of the lore that he's coming from. And, you know, maybe you don't know how entrenched your own upbringing is, until you're confronted with a different way to be. So I'm fascinated by that with Sirius. And I think it's something that he in struggling against what he grew up with, it's what fuels his rebellious identity, because it gives him a wall to throw his - I was gonna say, his creative balls against it - [laughter] it allows him to - no. I can't think of an analogy. He it really he allows himself to question that rigid modality of you know, that pure blood upbringing, anyway. Yeah.

So in relation to that, my question is, what do you think was like that made that shift in Sirius? Like, when do you think what do you think affected him to the point that I realized I either don't like my family don't want to be like my family? Because obviously was, you know, we're looking at 11 is the first time we see the the actual split, what do you think his life was like before that that would have really changed things?

So what do I think his life was like before Hogwarts or?

Yes, yeah, like when he would like when what made him want to take a different path, if that makes sense?

Yeah. So I think, I don't think he will have been aware of it really, until he arrived at Hogwarts until he's - in much the same - I see him as in running in parallel with Harry here, where he isn't aware, Harry isn't even aware that he's a wizard, right. But he, then he meets Hagrid, and he goes off and, you know, goes to platform nine and three quarters, yknow, Diagon Alley and his whole world opens up. And I sort of feel like the same happens with Sirius. But whereas with Harry, his world is literally opening up for Sirius, it's more of a metaphorical psychological expansion, because he's literally seeing different avenues of self expression, of potentially caring about others that isn't based off of blood status, or, you know, hierarchical pedigree or whether or not you're, you're higher up - high enough of the sort of the wizarding genealogy family tree, because, you know, an awful lot of importance in his childhood must have been placed on blood status. And, you know, that sort of that very upper class mentality of keeping the bloodline pure, you know, and I sort of feel like he won't have had a reason to rail against that until coming to Hogwarts and seeing how other how other families live. how, you know, you know how Harry says, "one of my best friends is Muggle born and she's the best, witch in our year", I feel like, I feel like Sirius must have had moments similar to that where his where his mind is blown. And he goes, Oh, yeah, I see now more of the person that I want to be because I feel like we as with adult Sirius - we don't necessarily see him as a fully grown person because of you know, he spent 13 years in Azkaban...

Right.

He hasn't had a chance to develop. We still see in him this awareness that he wants to be a good person and he wants to be this fully realized individual he just hasn't grown into that yet he always his his reach always exceed his grasp but I think that's one of his most admirable qualities.

So then I'm curious when the point is if like his if he was just like conflicting with his parents like if he was just like a little jerk and his parents they just didn't get along because you can only imagine the point when when do you think did they ever really disown him like did he at did they actually ever disown him until like after he left because he took it upon himself to leave. So I'm curious how for how long they held on to as much as they didn't like him. He was still there heir and how much was Regulus being like, "Hey, hey, look at me" like I can be what he isn't like, "see me see me" and

Yeah.

yeah, I don't know.

Yeah. Well, you have to remember that I think that household was certainly really matriarchal. Like, everyone grew up under that mother's shadow, and sort of what she said went, what she said was law. So I sort of feel like as their relationship strained, so too was the possibility that they that I absolutely think he was completely disowned? I mean, I think, I think -

Yeah, well he was he was eventually burned off the family tree, obviously. Oh, didn't he say like, when he run ran away? Then she like, Yeah, she burned it off, I think essentially, was what happened. So I think that was the final straw.

Oh yeah. But I think what would have happened is, in my head anyway, she would have given him an ultimatum to be like, "Buck up your ideas or get out". And then and then I feel like he chose that the latter option. And in his retelling of the story, he chose to run away. And that's why he was burnt off the chart. But I absolutely think that she was enough of a sort of a domineering personality to be, you know, "it's either my way or the highway." And Sirius chose that moment to get on his motorcycle and venture forth to freedom.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then of course, like then, obviously, you know, some people will ship like Starbucks, like James and Sirius. Like, I can also see that too. But in the instance of Wolfstar, people can see like, oh, he loves to live with James and they're like brothers like he's his brother. Um, it's the family he didn't know he had the the Potters are the parents he didn't really have. So going to school. As far as we know, people speculate maybe Frank Longbottom was like a fifth, you know, Gryffindor boy in their year, but as far as we know, we don't have any proof of it. It was potentially just the four of them. You know, I mean, even in Harry's year, there was what five of them. So even though it seems like a ridiculously small number of people in regards to everyone that you know, the potential number of wizards that are in the UK or whatever, it seems really silly. So of course, you just know if you know if their characters are going to be anything but straight, like Sirius and James are have that brotherly bond, they love each other, but they're brothers. And then Peter is kind of like that awkward one that I'm sure they're just like, "Yeah, he's a friend, I would never really see him as anything more than just a goofy little friend" [laughter]. And yeah, I just we talked about previously. - Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

No, sorry. Just - just as a brief little aside to what you said, I can absolutely see Peter feeling jilted, and that's what sets him down the road of, of, you know, choosing the other side. I can absolutely see him feeling bitter, because he's not involved in their, in their relationship. And I, you know, in my head canon, that is, you know, that's part of what happens is because, obviously, whether or not you believe anything physical happened between any of the Marauders, they were all really close. And I sort of feel like because Peter spent, you know, years living under their shadows, respectively, and he was just sort of the butt of their jokes, I can see why he would feel really left out and marginalized and why that would turn toxic and I think actually, it's a really good there's a really good moral lesson in that to be to you know, uphold your uphold your friendship groups, like make sure you're there for those for those people even for whom you aren't as close with because you because you know, feeling left out feeling left behind can let let these toxic feelings develop, you know.

yeah, and something that you know, just you saying that talking about it, I could see him getting a little bit more affirmation from Lily; like eventually when James and Lily come together, we get the letter that we see that Ja- um, that Severus reads and then takes, you know, the the bit that has her name written on it, and she's like, "Oh, you know, like, we're like Peter seems a little bit off" like obviously she can like see and has a closeness with him like maybe she's that friendly, motherly someone there to see him in a way that he felt like over time he wasn't seen as but it wasn't enough to save him. If that makes sense. Like his friends, he was the the extra one like he was there he was part of it because it was the four of them and him not being a part of it would have literally been like, malicious if you think about it. If they ignored Peter, he would be, it would be the three of them. And then Peter would be in the corner. And that would be shitty. I mean, so I could see Lily being that compassionate understanding one, I could see her being the person to be like, "No, I want Peter to feel included. And I want him to feel validated." So that's why I want that's why I want him to be secret keeper, because I want him to know we trust him. And we believe in him. Even though in the end, he wasn't the one. So because Sirius wanted to do it. And Dumbledore even wanted to do it. And it's I feel like it would have been a Lily choice. Ultimately, I feel like James would have picked Sirius like, I feel like James would have you know, I could see Lily being like, "Hey, you know this, this little guy needs like he needs something he needs to feel like a part of this." So...

Right. So I have a question for you. Because does do you think Lily choosing Peter, was that a moment of weakness? Or was it a moment of understanding? Where on the spectrum do you think that decision falls? Because ultimately, because she chooses Peter we know bad things happen. And you know, it was a mistake. But do you think do you think it was it was the right mistake to make essentially, is what I'm asking?

I just I can understand it. Like I can see it from the aspect of someone super compassionate and caring and seeing that someone is missing something and needs something and doing that for them. So if they had just been like, "Oh, he's acting weird", or I don't think he took it upon himself to be like, "Hey, I'll do it". Like, of course he wouldn't like that puts him a target on his back. So she probably I mean, of course, this is all headcanon speculation. So I could see her sitting down and being like, "Hey, we want this for you. And we really want this." And unfortunately, it went poorly as you say, but I don't see it as a bad decision. For the aspect of if things did end up differently I could see why Lilly or why I would make that decision for a friend that needed confidence given to them, if that makes sense. If we can tell that their confidence is wavering, or they feel like they don't aren't as important. I want to validate that person. So that's kind of how I see it.

That's a - that's a fair choice. But I don't know, if my if my life was on the line, and I knew that I was being you know, hunted by the most evil dark wizard of all time; I don't I don't know that I would have the - the courage maybe is the word, to make a choice that didn't feel absolutely 100% solid to me. You know, I i think i definitely if the choice fell to me, I wouldn't have picked Peter. Because I know there are other there are other people there in my corner that could have done a more a more sort of a stalwart job with that.

Yeah,

It's a tricky one.

Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, obviously, this is a life or death thing, as you say. But I think of - Yeah, I mean, even with family and friends even though you know that either (a) you could do a better job at something or someone else could do a better job than this person, you know that someone needs the opportunity to feel like they can do something. And so I think that that's, you know, that's I mean, that's just kind of what I from the aspect of just that compassionate friends point of view, I could just see Lily having that strength and confidence and kind of overall, I mean, she puts up with Severus' bullshit for a long time. I mean, it finally reaches a point that she's like, "you know what, I've made excuses for you for so long". So I feel like she sees the good in people until she's given a reason not to, if that makes sense.

Oh absolutely. Yeah.

So I think that she her confidence in anyone or I feel like she would she's very loving very, that's just, you know, not to go on like, "hey, Lily," "hey, Peter." But yeah, that's the thing, but um, yeah, it definitely like if if, you know, Sirius had been the person or yeah, I don't know, it's just what happened happened. Unless we write it differently. Obviously, we can write fic and have it be different, so.

Absolutely. But I sort of, I feel like part of the reason that whole choice happened in the first place, was because Sirius had a bit of a reputation as a hothead, as a flyboy, as someone who was he was well meaning but cavalier - who, you know, who was who was basically like, well meaning but self serving, you know what I mean?

Yes. So I just remembered part of the reason why they picked Peter [was] because they knew he was going to be the least expected like if someone was going to go searching for the person who was going to know where they were, they would go to Dumbledore they would have gone to Sirius, like they he was going to be the one that no one would have think of. Unfortunately, I don't know the instance that he happened upon a Death Eater or Voldemort himself that he instantly broke like was just like, "yeah, it's me. Aaargh!" like, you know, I just, I don't know,

Yeah but - right but my problem with - and I understand the reasoning behind that, but my problem with that is that you would obviously just pick Dumbledore because he's the most powerful wizard on the planet. He is the only one that Dumbledore - oh, the only one that Voldemort ever feared. And like -

Yeah, Voldemort's not gonna be showing up at Hogwarts. Yeah, exactly.

No, no, they would have been in no danger if if Dumbledore had just done it. And so I yeah, maybe this is just the Ravenclaw in me being like "that was a completely illogical decision." [laughter]

Yeah, it was illogical. That's the thing. It's like, yeah, that was, um, it was a very I don't know. Yeah. It was what it was. But yeah.

Yeah. But I-- but yeah, I think at least part of the decision comes down to the characterization of Sirius being what it is. And so part of what makes Sirius so great is his sort of cavalier attitude, but that's also a chief weakness in his personality, as we know, because later, once Harry's reunited with him, then in the battle in the Ministry of Magic, his sort of gung ho attitude, gets him put square in the in the, you know, hit in the chest with a killing curse. So, it you know, it's we see it a lot with him, where it's like, his best qualities are also what is so problematic about him. And I feel like this, this is why Wolfstar works so well. Because like you say, Remus can smooth a lot of his rougher edges. And they both they both sort of work well for each other. But I don't know, should we talk a little bit about Remus--

Yeah. yeah.

--before we talk about them as a as a couple? Okay.

Yeah.

So I don't know. Have you read the on Pottermore? There's a whole origin story for Lupin. Have you come across it?

No. I yeah, I will be honest, and say that I never really got into Pottermore. Just I don't know, I just felt like it was kind of like, oh, here's some extra stuff. And then you had to start paying for it and I was like arrghararr. You know, I just, it just was not for me. But I know that there are things on there that are probably really cool to add to but instead I'm like, I'll go to fanfiction.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, now, I absolutely agree with you, but where this

So now, no please tell me. [laughter]

So what so where this fascination started with me was with this Pottermore article, where it talks about his father being a ministry employee that ticked off this werewolf that then the werewolf bit Remus in revenge when he was five. And that's how the whole thing evolved. Now I know that there are some people that are just gonna say that Pottermore is ostensiby fanfiction that's just written by JKR to add to the universe. And that point is entirely valid. You know, it's not I'm not trying to say that this is established canon, but I think it's really like I will say that two of the articles I enjoyed most if you want to go check them out, I think they're still free to read. I'm not sure but two of the articles I enjoyed most on Pottermore were the Remus Lupin origin one and the Minerva McGonagall, origin one, which we may or may not get into at some point. But.

Yeah,

But yeah, so go and check those out if you haven't read them already. But there's no, there's no onus on you to accept them as canon. But anyway, so that colored a lot of my imagination of where Remus comes in. As a kid being sorted into Gryffindor. Obviously, he's had this affliction to deal with since he was five. So he's already been struggling with it for six years by the time he comes to Hogwarts. And so it's, so it's, I can only imagine what it must be like to already be different, but then to be dealing with this sort of dark secret that it becomes that you know, you mustn't reveal it to anyone else. Or you'll be ostracized, you know, you'll be a pariah. And for a kid to deal with that, you know, you already need a hell of a lot of courage so I can easily see him being sorted into Gryffindor. But he's not, he doesn't jump out at me as being Gryffindor. Like to me

Yeah,

He's he's a Ravenclaw for sure.

Yeah, I agree

But I of course, I'm gonna say that because of house bias, but like I feel that affinity with him because he has to keep an awful lot. Like he has to be aware of an awful lot and he has to be sort of hyper aware even at that young age. So he has all of this to deal with. And then he's coming into this house with a load of, you know, really brash Gryffindors who, who want to get to know him and want the best for him. But also, at that time, don't know his story. Don't know what he's been through. And I love the idea of that fic where they all eventually get to know what's going on with him. Because see, I imagine that in the early years especially, he'll he'll have had to be really guarded. He'll have been doing the equivalent of what Hermione had to do with the time turner in Book Three, where Ron makes all of these quips of like, Where did she come from?

Right. Right, Oh I've been here all the time. Exactly.

Exactly! Yeah, yeah. And I love, I dunno, I love the potential for comedy and whimsy and farce in that, obviously, it's also rooted in these really deep, serious concerns. Now, I also like we can't talk about Remus as well without talking about depictions of potentially disability, but but not necessarily just that. I mean, JKR has talked about how she saw the sort of the werewolf stigma as analogous to the stigma going to be attached to people with like, HIV/AIDS, and how that was perceived, which is interesting. But it also ends up being a bit one dimensional. And I feel like she could have she could have done more with that if she'd really wanted to push the boat out. But I feel like we get a very limited exploration of that. But it it's still an interesting angle to consider it from. I just love that this very tortured, oddball misfit can be sorted into Gryffindor and be such an unlikely compatriot of this, like ostensibly, like James and Sirius are really like lively, exuberant, enigmatic, you know, always on people.

Yes, yeah, exactly.

And I and part of why I love Wolfstar is I love the idea that these two very different people grow towards each other, and grow to appreciate each other's very, very different personalities as strengths for each other.

And of course, like you think back to when in the third book, and obviously Lupin is given the potion from Snape. And we realize that it's like a recent discovery. Like it's a recent thing.

Yeah.

So when he's back in school, obviously, they put in the Whomping Willow, they have the Shrieking Shack. And so he is put in the shrieking shack where he transforms and he is a full fledged werewolf. And he's biting himself and scratching himself and doing all these things. Since he's five years old, he most likely once a month was locked up in some room, you know what I mean? Like, just like he there was no way to treat it, there was no way to make it better. So he's coming to school, like, as far as we know, covered in scratches, covered in scars, and the questions and the looks and that he could be getting by other kids. And I could see Sirius being like, hey, like, what's that from? What's that from? Like? Just like no filter, just being like, what's that?

Oh absolutely. No tact. No.

And then, Remus is like either like, pulling back into-- Yeah, no tact whatsoever. Like, Oh, what's that? What's that? or whatever. And I don't feel like. I don't know how. Who would have that genuine concern of where they came from, aside from him disappearing, and then being like, Huh, what's going on and then foll--seeing that he went to, you know, whatever, how they figured out. But that to me is that's a physical telltale of his trauma that doesn't go away. It's it's always there. So that's, I mean, goodness. Like, if you have no idea where it came from, you're just like, oh, shit, did he get that at home? Was he attacked? Was he, you know, and, AND more. More come every month, he could potentially have more scars.

Exactly. And obviously, they're a very

I just, good lord. He's a freakin like, he's just been shredded to pieces.

Exactly! And, you know, there are very real parallels here to to self harm as well. Yes. And you know, and the consequences.

And the avoidance of it. The avoidance of it, of seeing it, but not saying anything or doing anything about it.

Exactly. Which is why I'm really glad that you brought me on to this. \

Yeah,

I love that the that the Marauders all ostensibly study to be Animagi so that when they eventually figure out, Okay, once a month, he's going to do this, they figure out a way to transform to make that less painful for him. And I mean, I know that Dumbledore gets a lot of stick and you know, you'll hear a lot of Dumble-- Dumble bashing from me, because a lot of the decisions that he makes throughout his tenure at Hogwarts are really questionable. But one of the things, one of the decisions that he made that I will absolutely defend 100% is Lupin wanted to come to Hogwarts. And all anybody else could conceive of were roadblocks and he said, No, Lupin is entitled to be here. He's a wizard as much as anybody else. Let's figure out a way to make it possible for him.

Yeah. Yeah

And so and so he did that. And that is a Dumbledore decision that I will always appreciate. And, and from

Twice!

Yeah, yes!

Twice. When he was a kid, and as a teacher.

Exactly, exactly. And I feel like that the seeds of that decision and the seeds of that idea alla-- was what allowed the Marauders to be like, we'll we'll learn to be Animagi to, to, you know, to help him cope and help him through his his awkward, you know, transformation stage. Where it could have been really painful, he could have had to go through it just by himself, but instead, it ends up being really a time for the whole group to get to know each other better as people, you know. A time that could have been really painful and isolating is actually used as one of their greatest strengths. And it allows the group to be even closer. So I think that that's one of the reasons I just one of the reasons I love the Mauraders era, but also why I end up shipping Wolfstar so hard. Because you know you get the emotional significance of that decision.

And you get the symbolism of the fact that Sirius becomes essentially a wolf-like animal and then we have Remus who is a werewolf. So when they both transform they are within the same you know, ish breed family of one another because then you have James who is a stag, obviously, Peter is a rat, like two completely, can't even relate them to. Like you could see them as prey in comparison to predators. So the two of them have that bonding element and even in their animal forms, like obviously, it has been said that when he drinks the wolfsbane, he's he keeps his head. Like he keeps his mind, he knows who he is. He's just in pain, like it sucks, but he's still himself. But without it, he's the animal. So imagine the bond of two, of two of those animals so similar building outside of that humanity aspect. Like with the animagi, you would imagine that Sirius still has his head and the and James and Peter do. So then how does, you know how do those guys and especially Sirius navigate finding that I guess harm harmony with a wild creature and being able to like I guess, like, ehhuheh calm it down? Words? What are words.

Yeah, I absolutely find that fascinating. And I think you hit the nail on the head when you said the animagi keep their heads, because that's proven from Philosopher's Stone, when we get snapshots of McGonagall in cat form on the wall, and she's observing the Dursleys. And she's fully able to still have her human observations of these people as the worst sort of muggles imaginable. [laughter] But she's, you know, she's, she's still, you know, she's able to still form those opinions. So it must. It forces Sirius in a way to develop an empathy for a side of Remus that has no cover, it can't be concealed. It's just absolutely primal baseline raw emotion and rage. And you know, and whatever else. It's just, he's just fueled by instinct in that time. And when, when, that when you have that degree of vulnerability, being met with that degree of with a degree of compassion necessary to go, I'm going to transform into a dog purely to make this experience easier for you. You cannot but help develop a strong sense of emotional maturity. And I feel that this is something that really grounds Sirius' wilder side.

And it's funny, I realized I had read-- of course, we talked to BigBlackDog. And I completely forgot to bring this up, as one of the fics that she wrote was a body swap fic where Sirius and Remus switched bodies. Like there's a potions accident and they swap bodies. So then both of them even though they're still kind of themselves, they think and feel and experience things as that person. So even though Remus is Sirius, he can still realize he's making decisions because of Sirius' personality. And then Remus is also terrified for Sirius because they're getting close to the full moon so then he would have to transform and then being able-- him having to help him through that is just like that was that was intense. So it's like it's that literal. Experiencing one one another's experiences and being in one another shoes that I had never really read body swap and I just the fact that of the werewolf bit of it was really big for me. I'm like, oh, gosh, like someone else is completely going to understand what he went through. And then when they figure out and come back together their relation, it was like a pre existing Wolfstar obviously relationship, but then after that, obviously their bond was that much deeper because he he lived and experienced the pain and what Remus went through every month.

Yeah, right. So it's that thing of, you know, don't judge someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. And, you know, being able to add the magical element to that and do it literally, really means that you can that there's no, there's no artifice, there's no hiding behind anything, everything is exposed. So in a way, it levels out their experiences. You know, because there's, there's nothing they need to conceal from the other. And that's a really liberating thought, isn't it?

Yeah,

There's no, there's nothing about yourself about who you are, that you need to keep from somebody else. And to be able to be that honest with someone and that open, especially when Remus has had to live with so much concealment for all of his life. And as we talked about, you know, Sirius has had to deal with feeling confined forever.

Right

You know, it must be so liberating for them both.

Yeah. Oh, gosh, absolutely. Oh, oh, I just I love thinking of them in this like in the Marauders era. I mean we keep sitting on that, but something that we did bring up in the previous episode, when we talked to BigBlackDog that I really like to think about is getting back into more trauma is after James and Lily died. And everyone that knew, as we talked about, that everyone that knew and accepted Remus for who he was, is gone.

Yeah.

Aside from like, as I think you had mentioned, Dumbledore, would have been the only person aside from his parents, which who we would assume were gone by now. He was left with a blank slate again, like he had no one. And so how that must feel to almost like, regress into 10-year-old, 11-year-old Remus, of going back to the beginning of being without that support, or understanding and all of a sudden the big bad world is out to get him and not having that, like not having someone there to be there for him is just I can't even imagine it. I can't imagine it. I mean, people lose people. A lot of people were sad when like James and Lily died, obviously Harry lost his parents. But for him, he lost so much more than just friends. He lost like a big piece of himself that was out there that all of a sudden is is gone. Like it's it's in him again, and it's gonna take a while for him to pull it out. I mean, he doesn't even-- Harry doesn't even know it's Hermione that figures it out way back when. The only way that Harry finds out is when the transformation happens. So it's just

Yeah, yeah.

He doesn't even trust Harry with that information. He tells no one and I just I can't imagine that's 13 years is so fucking long to know that I just oh god, that's just so oh its so bad.

But I feel like part of the reason-- so part of the reason he doesn't trust Harry with the information I think is just because Harry's totally oblivious. Like there are there are

Yeah, he is 13 or whatever. Yeah.

Yeah. There are plenty of times during the the book where it's like where Snape is like this week we'll be studying werewolves. And he's like

I know, yeah, and Hermione's the only one. Yeah,

Yeah, yeah. And it's just like this could not be more obvious if Snape had come in, you know, twirling his cloak, being you know, being like 'Ahahaaa, your teacher's unwell this week. Mmm Mmm Mm' [laughter]

Is Professor Lupin afraid of crystal balls? [laughter] Like

Oh my god, yeah.

Yeah exactly, oh man.

So, so part of it, part of it. It must be that he's oblivious. But then I also think part of the reason he doesn't share this with Harry, is that Harry looks an awful lot like James and has his mother's eyes. So he looks an awful lot like two of the people he's lost. So in much the same way as Harry is a mirror for Snape. He's also a mirror for Lupin.

Yes.

And then on top of that, Lupin knows that Harry has already been through a load of crap with Voldemort. So I think he must feel, Oh, I don't want to add to his burden by telling him my troubles because Lupin has this, you know, this inner tortured thing down to a tee where he's like, if I share what I'm going through with anyone, I'm going to be you know, offloading onto them.

Okay, so I just thought of something. So of course, so of course, you know, it's hard for them to get a DA you know, Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher.

Yeah, yeah,

That's obvious. And so then, oh, they get Remus to come. I am curious if the reason why Dumbledore reached out to him was because by this time Sirius Black has already been on the loose, like as the summer. Like this has been a thing. If because Remus is the last person who knows Sirius, knows his behaviors, knows his possible choices or things that he might do. And if the assumption is he's out to get Harry, he's almost like a guardian. Like he was put in place to be someone to keep an eye on Harry and kind of be able to fill feel things out. And I don't know because I feel like it could have been anyone else but Remus. Of course, you're going to introduce characters and write a kid's book where it's like, oh, of course this guy is going to come into the story and oh, surprise, he's friends with the family. Oh, surprise. He's also friends with the you know, with the guy who's out to kill you and oh, like all this, like unfolding of things. But I could see that too. Like even though the whole like dementor thing and he goes to Lupin and Lupin decides to help him and he doesn't go-- they spend some time together. I just, I don't, I feel like Lupin probably like, hoped for that. Or once he had it. It was kind of like a, like you said, He's like, oh, come over, and I have some butterbeer and Harry's like oh, yeah, I like it, he's like, what? You've had this? And but they hang out like they get along. I feel like Dumbledore kind of maybe put that in Lupin's head to say, hey, with everything that's going on, Harry doesn't know about you. He doesn't know your history. But know, that you know, just you're there for him if he needs it sort of thing. So that's just an Interesting thought. [laughter]

Yeah. And I also I, you know, I feel like this goes, this fits with Dumbledore's trajectory of maneuvering the people around Harry to make them helpful, but also keep him oblivious. Like, I don't know, I do an awful lot of Harry bashing where it's like, oh, why isn't he putting two and two together? But an awful lot of this is Dumbledore just going help him but in no way tell him why.

Don't let him know you're helping him like in the case of Snape the whole time. Obviously. You know, we we just, yeah, it there's all these things we didn't know he was doing because yeah, of course he's not going to come. Yeah, yep. Absolutely. Oh, Dumbledore.

yeah. And, I mean, it's not just Snape he's done it with either. I mean, look at Arabella Figg who's been living opposite him for X amount of years.

Oh, that poor woman.

I know. Just literally, they're on sentry duty to report whatever back to Dumbledore. And how hard must it be to live as a squib in a world you know, is part magical? I think,

Right.

That is that has to be one of the toughest psychological things to be like to have a foot in both worlds and participate in neither that has to be really tough on her.

Right, because she couldn't leave. She couldn't have a life. She could I mean, yeah, yeah, she I mean, it was literally cat lady like she lives at home. She has her cats. And that's her life. I mean, it's just Yes. Oh, for sure.

So I feel like an awful lot of this orchestration of the way Lupin is around Harry could have been different, had it been instigated by somebody else. But regardless, that's what we got in Book Three. I, I do love that he comes back again in Order of the Phoenix. But then of course, we get all the Tonks stuff, which complicates my headcanon.

Right? Yeah.

And then in book seven is it's maybe the most problematic of all, whenever he arrives at Grimmauld Place to suggest to Harry that he joins them.

Yeah.

And they have that argument. And he leaves in in a huff. I really feel like JKR wasn't writing the same character. She wasn't writing Lupin that that had been established. And it was -

I agree. 100%.

Thank you. Because it's been a frustration of mine for years, just like I'm finally airing this on this podcast, but that that whole argument need not have taken place at all, though. He is - that - that is not behaving in the way that he has been portrayed all the way through these books. And he's been quite consistent. I mean, I know you know, the, the wizarding war has been a massive stresser on everybody. So you can say okay, well, maybe he's acting this way out of desperation or to cling to the past. But I think if anything, even his decision to sort of move on with Tonks canonically has proven that they've talked, and he's not clinging to the past. He is very much committing to moving forward. What else, what other decision can having baby with somebody prove, you know?

Right.

You don't do that lightly. I mean, unless you unless it's an accident, you know?

Yes. But he's regretted it ever since he married her. I mean, that whole thing he's like, I shouldn't have married her. And now that baby's gonna be aware of and blah, blah, and all this stuff. And it's like, it's one thing for him to like, hate himself or be hesitant. Like, we went through that journey with him like, yeah, we, you went through that thing, and you guys figured it out. And now you're together and to kind of go, it was such an extreme shift abs- I completely follow you there. Like, it's one thing for him to show up and be like, "Hey, I'm offering my services, you know, just because of who I am, friend of your family. I could be a support," but not have that negative bit. Like, you know, like, even just like, what about Tom? He's like, wow, like, I regret it. I want to go off and like Harry's, like, Oh, you want to just seek glory and leave your kid and whatever, but really is like, "Oh, I talked to Tonks, and we have a way of communicating or like, wait, you know, like something something like that would make it so much better? And yeah, I don't know.

Yeah. Because - Because, because Lupin in my head would know what it feels like to love people that he's lost already. Like he -

Right.

He's lost, he's lost. At this stage he's lost Sirius again, because he'd lost him already. And now he's lost him again. He's already lost James and Lily, he knows what it's like to invest and to lose. So I sort of feel like his decision wouldn't be motivated by wanting to seek glory, it would be about wanting to defend what is most important to you know, this this is this decision is being arrived at- because he wants to stand up for what he believes in, not because he wants to throw it away. And the fact that that distinction -

Or run away.

Exactly. And the fact that the distinction is never made in the books really annoys me, it's one of the worst things about book seven.

Oh no, I agree. That that scene hurts me, like every time I'm just like, Oh, God, just ugh. Oh, like the way Harry behaves and has to behave because of the situation which is justified. And also Oh, man. I'm Hermione in that instance, I was like, oh my god. harima dude, oh, my God, like, you're just like, Oh, God, like, it's just, yeah, that was rough. That was rough. So yeah.

You know, I get that you know, arguments have to happen and people are gonna butt heads. But as long as the motivation like, regardless of what whatever else happens, as long as your motivation is good, everything else could stem from that however it needs to be. But it's the fact that his motivation was supposedly, you know, I just want to rekindle some of my old former glory days. It just did not. It just does not sit right with me. And I feel like

yeah, my family would be better off without me. Like whut?

no, like, Yeah, I know. I know Remus has, has issues and, and questions his self worth. But also just Harry, but if you look at in book five, Harry has massive self worth issues, where he's like, "is Voldemort possessing me? Am I slowly turning into Voldemort? You know, no one's talking to me what's happening?" his whole identity is is thrown into crisis there. He comes through it going, I'm going to guard what's important to me, because otherwise it will be exploited as a vulnerability against me by people working against me. And I feel like Remus would come to a similar conclusion. It's also if anyone was going to go out in a blaze of glory, I would say that is a Sirius action. And really, I think a lot of Harry's anger at Remus in that scene is really anger at Sirius that he can't put there anymore, because Sirius has already died.

Yes. Oh, for sure. Oh, for sure. Wow. Yeah, no, absolutely. Ah, okay. Now I'm curious if Sirius had lived how would he be handling Harry going off and doing this? Like, how do you think he would be navigating this?

Oh, there is no way Sirius would be letting Harry go off by himself -

Yes.

- with Ron and Hermione. He would absolutely be glued to them. But there wouldn't be any discussion. There wouldn't be any discussion he would just be he'd be like "use my motorbike fly wherever you need to."

Right.

Like he would he would be listing every single resource at his disposal. I mean, if you think of, if you think of the way Sirius behaved in at the start of book five, whenever Harry wants to be part of the Order, and Sirius is like "induct him now."

Yeah,

you know, and there's that really sweet argument between Molly Weasley and Sirius about who Harry belongs to. Yeah, so it's so like, That must have been really in a strange way it must been really heartening for Harry to witness because he has never had such a direct and obvious outpouring of love directed at him. And you know, they both have different intentions. But I - I it's one of my favorite moments in the book because it's it's such an obvious they both have Harry's best interests at heart. And they want him to be, you know, be as as well looked after as possible. It's such a such a lovely moment.

I just keep having these moments of like, Oh my gosh, oh my gosh. Um, so of course, let's say Sirius lived. He had to stay at grimmauld place because Dumbledore totally told him he had to write. So Dumbledore diies you know, like the following following year. Harry has to go off gallivanting around to find horcruxes. There is nothing keeping Sirius at home, no one could convince him to stay at home. And of course, having been stuck at home for so long, able to do nothing to help he is -

Yes.

- ready to throw himself out there in any way, shape, or form. And like you said, he would be 100% in Harry's corner, like it would -

Yeah.

it he just if this is the way to end things. I'm going to do my part. And I love this kid, and I'm going to be there for him. And that would definitely be there's, there's just no way I don't there's that's why he had to die, apparently, because there was no way that Harry Ron and Hermione could go off and do this thing without someone trying to come with them. So yeah.

And I sort of, you know, I see it from a broader storytelling point of view, that it works more strongly if you get Harry to realize the depth [I said dearth but I meant depth, dearth is the opposite] of his own abilities, and the breadth and the scope of his own strength, if there's no one there to lean on. But I also think it was a bit of a cop out, because, yeah, I would have loved to have seen Harry and Sirius, and Ron, and Hermione all going off together to find these horcruxes. I think it would have made for a more interesting storytelling segment, having the four of them together, of course, does potentially remove the Ron jealousy element, but I was never a big fan of that segment anyway. But I think one of the failings one of the reasons why people keep bringing Sirius back from the dead in fanfic, and one of the reasons why I think people you know, write so strongly about Wolfstar is that Sirius is the ride or die character he's never half invested in anything. And I think if you if you have an idea for a story, you know, obviously I love Wolfstar. But this could be applied to any context.

right?

If you have if you have an idea for a story, that you're like, "I need absolute commitment from a character!" serious is who you go to.

Right.

And yeah, I just I love that about him. As I've said, you know, that is also what leads him into sticky situations, but it's also what is best about his forthrightness.

Yes. And as far as like a trope that gets kind of that canon divergent, like after the third book. So say that obviously Peter didn't get away he was captured, he had his trial, he went to Azkaban everyone knows Sirius didn't do it. And then either if Lupin and him had a romantic relationship before, the navigating that forgiveness between you know Sirius and Remus and being able to see that possibly in a domestic aspect versus Sirius going on the run, you know, because it's like Sirius, I mean, Remus found out that that wasn't the case. And then they were separated again, you know, like Sirius was, was gone. And then he had told Harry like, you can come you know, stay with me. So then the potential of after a third year, whether it's Grimmauld Place and Remus in him or if Remus had somewhere that then the three of them start their lives together as a unit is a really like beautiful thing to look into and read about too - and just that vulnerability of the of the relationship and rekindling and trust and growth for Remus and Sirius having gone through their individual traumas because you know, Remus did in his own way over 13 years and obviously Sirius did in his 13 years and what that would be like like either, you know, like going to bed with one another and like just laying, you know, laying on the pillows and they're just all of a sudden one of them just starts talking, you know, and the other one's listening and then vice versa and just I feel like both of them have that ability to be vulnerable and to listen and to understand and be extremely caring. I just, Oh, I just feel like they need each other to come out of this to heal like without the other it's not But nothing else happening is doing that. I mean, so Remus finds Tonks, there's a lot of weird stuff going on with that. Sirius gets trapped in a house like he doesn't get to he I mean, they are put on trajectories that isn't really doing them the best service. But if they were getting through it together because of their history dealing with the fact that their life choices and their life experiences were because of the same event, and then coming back afterwards. Oh, just they're just post Book Three them togetherness and Harry and stuff. It's just Oh, it's just so nice.

Exactly. And I think this is one of the reasons Wolfstar works so well, is that you don't even need to ship it in a slash context. You can just you can just have it be platonic. But there's, there's a an intimacy about their pairing, even if it's not slashy.

Right.

And I don't think there's an awful lot of pairings you can apply that to. And that's one of the reasons I love it so much is that whatever, whatever context you find them in, there's always that room to explore, and find out more about them. And because they fit so well together, that's always going to happen but is that you're always going to find out something you didn't know about these this pairing, but I did I mean I know this week is is Wolfstar specific, but I did just want to give you an opportunity as well to talk about your Regulus headcanon because I know we had briefly talked about Regulus earlier on what it must have been like for Sirius to grow up in that but I know that you have very specific Regulus ideas. I was wondering how how they came about.

So gosh how they came about though I am not I'm not quite sure when and how it happened. But obviously when it comes to Regulus his character we know very little about him. All we know through text or from Sirius is that he was the little perfect brother that tried to be what Sirius wasn't, you know, his mother like loved him doted on him he became - you know, he went into Slytherin and he was the perfect child and obviously we see when we go into his bedroom that he has like articles following Voldemort and all this stuff and obviously he was on a path of you know, bad stuff but I also see him as someone that I could have seen him and Sirius having a really close relationship his children I mean, they're only like a year apart. Literally he goes to school the year after him so I could see them being really close and then either because Regulus is a little bit more you know reserved or soft hearted or doesn't like to you know, stir the pot whereas Sirius probably is just like you know, "bam!" like he's willing to just like go all in and Regulus is probably like "Whoa, whoa, whoa, like let's"- it's just not about you know, starting drama. And then just seeing potentially come like when serious leaves for school and he goes into Gryffindor and he starts expressing his negative feelings on the parents, I could see that starting their rift of separation as far as like Regulus. Think about how, like, I don't know if it's, you know, for you, but I know for me, for my life experiences, we often grow up with the thoughts and morals, that of our what we're exposed to, like our parents.

Yeah. Yeah.

So what what I grew up with is obviously not what I think or feel today, and I know it was problematic, like, I know, it was that way. And obviously I made a choice for and realize that I needed to be different and I chose to be different. And I feel like we see that with Regulus, like when we hear the story from Kreacher of him figuring out the horcruxes all of a sudden, like however he found out this happened. I mean, wow, what a brave thing to all of a sudden do like I'm actively going to go looking for and steal things that are supposed to help Voldemort stay alive forever, when he's the most like terrifying, dangerous person, like even says in the note like I'm probably long dead, but I just want you to know, like, you've probably you know, like, I want you to know that I figured it out and I'm you know gonna bring you down or be part of the process to bringing you down. It's just that's that's when his strength came out. Like I feel like he followed a path that was expected and then all of a sudden he realized either I mean maybe he saw it in Sirius: maybe at when he got older he woke up and maybe he had Sirius reconnected like what if their relationship grew again, and he was trying to get it out. And it just Oh, like it's, I just think that he is a product of his environment. He's not necessarily a bad character. He's another character that we could see as brave obviously in the end, he made a choice that he wanted to - not only like not be bad - like we had talked kind of about Peter before of like he made a choice not to, you know, give like tell them that that Harry was leaving or whatever happened he made a choice and they got choked by his own hand. Regulus made a choice and he committed it to it so intensely he sacrificed himself. Like that was how passionate and invested he was in that decision, and didn't tell his parents, his mother like cried and was devastated that he didn't come home and Kreacher couldn't tell them. I just love him as a character because we know so little about about him other than we know, he was an opposite of Sirius, he maybe wasn't quite as attractive as him. He could have felt like he was the lesser of the brothers and had to make up for it in other ways. And but you know, he was 17 when he died. He was 17 he had just left Hogwarts. I mean, that's wild.

Yeah.

And I just I think that I don't know, I just think he grew. Yeah, I just think he's not he's not who we particularly could think him to be. But now that I think about it, like I could have seen him and Sirius finding a way to reconnect at the end and then whatever discovery he could have been inspired by his brother, if you think about it, like at that age -

Absolutely.

Sirius was already like, you know, he was out of school for at least a year and then after that Regulus left school. So, so Sirius was already making choices and doing Order of the Phoenix-y things because only a couple years laters when the whole you know, Lily and James die. So I just could see that him feeling like he had to make up for the choices he made. Like he felt like he wronged Sirius for years. And he felt like, you know, and so many people, whether he witnessed it in others, because who knows his selflessness because I see it as selflessness. It could be for other people or genuinely could have been just for Sirius. Who knows? You know, if you think about it, like I am making a difference, because I feel ashamed of what I did. And what I didn't do to help my brother and I'm going to make up for it in the most intense way possible.

Yeah, yeah. And if you think about characters who have given sacrifices on that level, we're really left with Lily who sacrificed herself to save Harry.

Yeah.

And because I don't even think like - Dumbledore designed his own death. But it wasn't really a sacrifice in the same way.

No, it yeah, it was a timing thing. He's like, Oh, I knew eventually I'd have to it's like, oh, I guess this is the answer now. I have a curse that's gonna kill me anyway, so I guess I gotta start y'now, planning.

Exactly, exactly. Because he had a moment of selfish weakness. And then he was like, "oops, I cursed my hand!". Well, actually, the implication is that the curse was a lot more serious and Snape is able to hold it in his hand for a while with potions and stuff. And then he was like you have a year at most so then he was like Okay, I'm gonna have to start planning how I'm gonna die you know exit stage left because you know, everything has to have its place but with with Regulus, like you point out he was 17 I mean, I don't know if I could have made a decision that brave when I was 17 years old.

Oh, I know. Exactly. And he had this plan going in because he knew something was happening. He offered Kreacher to go and you know, help him and then expecting that Kreacher would be the one to die after drinking everything and Voldemort leaves him there. Regulus is able to bring him back and keep that secret. Oh my god. And we talked about this in Tomarry. The occlumecy-legillimency shit!

Yes.

Okay, Regulus had been super smart, super accomplished. He obviously can do occlumency because how the hell would unless him like just defecting and just not showing up again. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, it just happened within a short period of time that he had Kreacher tell him what happened, take him back there within a couple days. Yeah, I don't know.

But we know that he can't really have not shown up again, because we know that Karkaroff did that. And then, you know, a very short time later, his body was found in a shock. So you know, Voldemort doesn't let shit like that lie. So either Regulus had to have done it very quickly, like got - got the Horcrux, or he was very accomplished and was able to hide his plans from Voldemort. And I think either of those things is possible. I do you think he was still only 17? So maybe, you know, he knew his Occlumency ability wasn't mastered perfectly, but I definitely think he was capable of more than he's given credit for.

Absolutely.

Cause I always. I always did sort of wonder. When we hear about Regulus, we hear Kreacher's retelling of what happened. And we know how Kreacher is massively in love with the House of Black like

Yes -

he's always gonna paint anybody from that house in the best light possible. Because, you know, it's established that house elves have somewhat some degree of Stockholm Syndrome for their owners you know, and so they're always going to paint their owners in the best light possible. So I did always wonder is this just creature being overly generous about Regulus' accomplishments? But if you think about it, several things did have to happen for the story to make sense. He had to have found out about the horcruxes: he had to have then taken the real one, he had to have then sacrificed himself. I mean, only somebody very determined to do that and very set in the idea that the decision that they've made was right for them would have been capable of doing that.

Yeah, and I mean even though you say that in the story Kreacher isn't like fluffing it up, he's not talking Regulus up like this, you know, it's not until like Hermione or Harry's, like oh, here's Regulus' locket and he's like, "Oh my god, I love Regulus!", like in the story, he's he's literally factual, because he's like, tell us what happened. And he's like, "Oh, I had to go with Voldemort. He told me I had to go and it would be an honor and then he brought me back: then we went together again" and and Regulus either drank it or you know, he had Kreacher do it again. And then he told Kreacher, he had to go home and tell no one about it and leave him there to die. I mean, good Lor-. Yeah, I just I feel like taking away its - Kreacher couldn't really lie about it at that point, because Harry had asked him so directly and obviously the everything that was there once they were able to open the locket like obviously, you know, the RAB and you know, you just, you know, yeah, I don't, I feel like there wouldn't be room for us to be it to be misconstrued on the choices he made, because I don't think his personality was really tried. It was what they were told what happened. And then you're just left being like, holy crap, like, wow.

Yeah. So then you really see to bring it back round to Sirius again, you really see that this potentially, like unexpected bravery is more of a family trait of the Blacks than was previously expected. I mean, I know we have, there's Bellatrix in there as well. So it's not it's not as simple it's not as cut and dried as all that: the reason I wanted to bring up Regulus at all in a Wolfstar episode is because we [can] really sort of show off the similarities and differences between Regulus and serious and see how those work because I haven't really formulated very much headcanon for Regulus. I mean, I know of him and I know he exists, but he's not - On the surface of it, he's not imperative to Wolfstar but just from talking to you, and because I know you write a lot of Regulus fic, I sort of figured out well obviously they grew up together so he could have a lot more to do with how Sirius has grown up that I previously gave him credit for.

Absolutely, well I'm always happy to talk right? [Laughter] I'm surprised we avoided Snape as long as we did this episode. [Laughter]

You and me both!

Because I could easily pivot into I could see Regulus being friends with with Snape because -

Of course you could!

- because he's trying. He's trying to prove to Snape that he's not his brother, and that he doesn't agree with his brother's behavior. Bla bla bla, and I'm going to be Death Eaters together and this whole thing, I have so many thoughts. So yeah, so Wolfstar.

Yeah. For more details on this. Yeah. For more details on this series of thoughts you should really check out Megs' fanfiction.

Yeah, there's a lot there. [Laughter]

Yeah, yeah. Maybe you could put one of those in the description, just for our listeners that might be curious about where you take these characters.

Yeah, for sure. Absolutely.

But yes. But this episode has mostly been Wolfstar, which I mean, I'm incredibly proud of because I knew I had a lot to say, I didn't quite know I had this much to say. I still feel like I could talk for hours. But the main points of what I wanted to flesh out we have talked about so I'm happy.

Yes, this has been absolutely wonderful. And yes. So aargh! This has been good. This has been good. Absolutely. So as far as what we're doing next time, we don't know. We're recording this as a point that we have a backlog of a lot of other episodes that we have yet to release over the next several weeks. So we have some ideas of what we're doing next. We'll let you know; we might we might tack something on after this and be like, Oh yeah, we decided we're gonna do whatever. So let us - let us know your favorite Wolfstar stuff - uh Wolfstar's a big ship. We know a lot of you have to have a lot of thoughts and feelings in regards to these two as characters; these two as a couple. We want to see your favorite fics - if you write it, let us know we'd love to read your stuff. So send us an email at careofmagicalshippers@gmail.com - you can reach us on social media too. Yeah, we're just we're we're looking forward to continue more Wolfstar discussion before we get into whatever the heck we're doing next. Thank you for listening as always, and yeah, we can't wait to ship with you soon.

Hey, listeners, it's editing Nathan here. Turns out we do know what we're doing next week, because we've already done it. Time's funny like that, isn't it? And anyway, we're going to be shipping Ron/Pansy, a ship that we've affectionately dubbed parsley, So come join us next time to figure out why it should be a part of every balanced fic diet. Looking forward to seeing you then.

While you're waiting for the next episode, all the shipping fun can continue online. You can head over to all of our social media platforms like magicalshippod on Twitter and Instagram, and careofmagicalshippers on Tumblr. You can get in touch with us by email at careofmagicalshippers@gmail.com. Or you can leave us a voice message with all of your ship and fic thoughts and feels and have the chance to be featured on a future pod episode. We are also live on Patreon Patrons have access to early episodes, bonus content, extended uncut episodes with all of our nonsense. Ficlets written by me, exclusive merch, and a patron Discord. Another easy way to show your love for the pod is by leaving a review on Apple podcasts and thank you so much for listening.