Stoic Strategies for Supervision: Empowering Counselors to Thrive

4:38PM Oct 25, 2024

Speakers:

Megan Speciale, PhD

Keywords:

stoicism in counseling

counselor resilience

emotional regulation

rational detachment

stoic compassion

dichotomy of control

mindfulness techniques

self-assessment

professional boundaries

gratitude practice

visualization exercises

journaling prompts

self-care routines

emotional balance

value-based living

Music.

Hello and welcome to the thoughtful counselor, a podcast dedicated to bringing you innovative and evidence based counseling and mental health content designed to enhance your life, whether you're a clinician, supervisor, educator, or a person wanting to learn more about the counseling process. We are here to demystify mental health through conversations with a wide range of counseling professional powerhouses. In each episode, you'll learn about current issues in the field, new science and real life lessons learned from the therapy room. Thank you for joining us on our journey through the wide world of counseling. There's a lot to explore here, so sit back, take a deep breath, and let's get started.

Hello and welcome to another episode of the thoughtful counselor. Today, I'm sitting down with Rachel Estes masters of education and clinical mental health counseling, Licensed Professional Counselor and a nationally certified counselor. She is currently pursuing a PhD in counselor education and supervision at Auburn University. Rachel brings a wealth of experience and insight into her work specializing in anxiety, trauma and life transitions. She's deeply committed to supporting individuals as they navigate challenges related to ADHD, self esteem, depression, abuse and PTSD, with a particular passion for working with college students. Today, Rachel and I are going to talk about stoicism and how we might be able to use stoicism to enhance counselor resilience. Thank you for coming. Rachel. Welcome on.

Thanks for having me. Yes.

So we are excited to have you back before we have had you, and we had talked more about working with sexual violence, working with adjudicated youth, but today we're hitting stoicism. So maybe give us a little update about what you've been up to clinically and how you got to your interest on this topic.

Yeah, it's kind of like it feels like a big jump from working with adolescents from legal sexual behavior, but I it probably is one of the things that like contributed to my interest in this subject. Because that is a feel, if I don't know if I don't know if anybody's watched that or whatever that listen to that episode, but it was not something that I originally thought that I would ever work with. And so kind of learning through supervision, which this is one conversation to have, because you have been my supervisor and kind of mentor, like throughout my entire counseling career, which is, which is awesome. So like, I like that we get to have this discussion, particularly because it's something that probably came up in, in its original form, in in through that. Now I am in private practice. I've been there for two and a half going on three years in the spring, and it's been something where I've been able to kind of really dive into like interest, and then also being in the PhD program, I'm in my fourth year, so hopefully we'll be finished very soon. Have gotten to work with a lot of counselors in training, and kind of seeing my growth as an educator in some ways, and so how to even strengthen resilience for myself as an educator, along with the continued growth as learning as a counselor. So yeah, I've been working a lot with college students. I've really developed a passion for that, but I kind of see a wide age range, from probably my youngest being 14 right now, to oldest in their 60s. And I've this has come up, not only in my work for like, clients, really, but also in kind of my role as a graduate student and moving forward as a counselor educator in the future. So, um, yeah, I'm excited to

dig in deeper into this.

Yeah, yeah. So

we've obviously had discussions about being able to maintain resilience in the field and even how to support maybe supervisees, not only just ourselves. Talk to us a little bit about what got you more interested in stoicism, because you and I are working on projects around stoicism and using it to enhance counselor resilience, where I felt like this was an important conversation to have accessible to all kinds of people, not just folks at conferences, or if we write about it, talk to me about sort of where you started finding stoicism to be particularly useful in your work.

Well, I didn't recognize it as stoicism. I think stoicism within itself, a lot of times, specifically for some people, is really like misunders. Stood it's kind of like this idea of being cold or, um, not caring. You know, if we were, like, looking up synonyms for stoicism, it probably wouldn't be the most warm feelings when we read those words. It is really there's this misconception around it, so I didn't really recognize it, as far as, like me, trying to stay mentally healthy in terms of stoicism, I think it was probably through, if I'm thinking back like a conversation that we had during supervision, and probably in those days of early, you know, working with illegal sexual behavior in adolescents can be a really taxing environment, of like, because you're hearing things that can be really violent sometimes, and so just to kind of keep myself healthy, and like, have this idea of compartmentalization In a way, or being able to leave it where it is and not take it home with me. And I think we probably were, we both, or I said something about or you said, so I don't know who it was, who cares, but the daily stoic and kind of like being interested in Ryan holidays work, and so like, if anybody's listening, that is probably, if you have interest in stoicism, that's where I'd start, is that and listening to the daily stoic, which is a or, or the daily stoic podcast, which is just a little clip of kind of these wisdom pockets that you can take throughout the day. And I started listening to them off and on. And then one particularly stood out to me about the idea of like, urge and action. And I remember maybe I don't know what was go like, what particularly was maybe going on with clients or something, but it was like I was feeling emotionally like, this urge to of, of either like, resistance or like, or if I was frustrated, or something, you know, like, as we get, and I remember listening to that, and it was the idea of Like, separating those things, if we're feeling these emotions and we're not taking action or, um, you know, move towards some action in some way, do we really care about it? Like, is it? Is it worth putting all this emotional energy into and sometimes yes, like, right, like, that kind of is the call for advocacy in a lot of ways, but a lot of times we have to, like, it's almost like a litmus test. Now for me, like, of like, am like, is this really worth like, what am I? What am I? So, why are my feelings intense in this moment. And so, I think, and then just we, I kind of, like, started getting some books, and we just kind of incorporated some of this stuff just in our talking. It wasn't even specific to supervision. I think you allowed me to kind of nerd out a little bit about it. And like, it became, like an organic conversation where just it we, we started talking about what those virtues look like, and it was, it was the idea of like returning to some of these values in a way of like revisiting them. And also, how do we, in some ways, make this, these virtues, like, in, in our modern culture of counseling, like, how do we return and honor, whether it's, you know, advocacy and social justice in the ideas of, like, what these principles are, and then Just building emotional competence, like, overall, like, kind of our toolbox there. I guess that's a long about answer,

maybe one of those things, it was great. Yeah, so, and to go a little bit further, since that's kind of, you know, if it sparked a lot in our work together, I just happen to stumble upon stoicism. I am not a philosophy nerd by any means, I tend to be a little bit too cerebral. I'm a little too concrete for that. And so philosophy tends to be very abstract. But stoicism made sense because I remember when I discovered it, and I think I've heard about it randomly on another podcast, which is the beauty of podcasts and the sharing of knowledge. And I remember it struck me, and reminded me so much of cognitive behavioral therapy, but I am very good at this point of kind of like CBT myself, and so I really like this idea of these principles that have existed in, you know, centuries by leaders who really can have transformed the world, but also overcame a lot of adversity, that resonated with me. Because I love when wisdom is passed down, because then it's one. Those tried and true sort of like community healing aspects, and that's what I loved about stoicism, is that although, you know, it was created in a whole different time and culture, it kind of stands that test of time of things we can still apply. And then finding that students who were struggling, or supervises struggling with maintaining some of this resilience needed for the field, I had to figure out some option to be able to retain people in the field. And stoicism seems to be at school that really seems to be effective for people who do need a frame of reference or some perspective to keep them going.

Yeah, and I mean, when we think about like the students in counseling training programs right now of what level of exposure compared to maybe what you and I experienced, whether it's through media or or other things of like, pretty, pretty big situations throughout, like the world and like, this polarizing type of thing. So I think this is just a really good practice in that. I mean, it's been around for a really long time, and hopefully, like, the repackaging of it can be helpful. And it's kind of like they talk about this idea, and I want to say this wrong, so I apologize because I don't know how to pronounce this word, but it's like saying Froy or something like that. And it's really this idea of unflappable coolness under pressure. And it kind of mimics the idea of, like, we're kind of the duck on the pond, and we look calm and collected under, I mean, like on top of the water, but we're kind of, you know, moving anxiously, moving our feet around, so like marrying those things, of like, there's room for emotion, but resting on the training and even some of these, like principles that we need, like, influence, like, put into our training programs. Like we were talking about the idea of, like influencing some of these, like journal prompts and virtues into the orientation course, and then revisiting them as supervision starts. So it's like, almost like, hey, let's have this thing here, as in our toolbox. So when we get to this spot of like, I'm stressed and don't know what to do, like revisiting that, maybe writing that you did

absolutely and I think that is something we want to come from. This discussion is give takeaways for individuals, if you want to utilize stoicism personally or as a cancer educator and supervisor, let's maybe do a quick summary and breakdown of stoicism for people who have not heard about it, or maybe only briefly, and some of the key concepts so you mentioned. Ryan Holiday is a great resource to be able to start to learn about a modern take on stoicism. Rachel and I really kind of preach about his books. What I really find useful about his books is that he connects characters in history that we know, but it's another side of the story of sort of how they became so successful. Right now I'm midway through his book, discipline is destiny, and it talks so much about how Temperance is really key in being able to be successful. And I just found it so useful to kind of reframe how I expend my energy. But first, let's talk about what are some key principles of emotion regulation, self discipline, rational detachment. How would you summarize, Rachel, how you see stoicism, and that can kind of be our starting point for this part of the discussion.

Um, so I mean, as far as like how I see it, I just see it as a strengthening of core concepts of who we are. Like of like it, I see actually, when I look at the principles of virtues of or the virtues of wisdom, courage, justice, temperance and mindfulness, I see resilience reflected in that. So it's not the ability to to let emotion kind of overshadow, but it's all like overtake, but it's not the ignoring of that, either. It's the idea of wisdom being through mentorship or or the cur, like we talk about, counselor training programs are the time to have the courage enough to fail and like to try and fail, and that's okay. Sometimes we can get caught in perfectionism. I know, like I did, like I was, like, I am the worst if I ever make a mistake, but the idea of courage really can speak to like, we've got to try these we've got to try and get good at these things, because the first time that we're do it, we're not going to be and so knowing that in day one of like this is not a idea of breaking you down, but growth mindset, you build up, right? And so, um, you know, emotional regulation, we got to be able to do that, like, if you have any any given time, if you have six sessions in a day, or eight sessions in a day. I mean, you know, some people that that really can go back to back. That takes a capacity of. Of emotional regulation for yourself. And so that comes modeling to the client, but also like they come in, and it's something very traumatic, maybe that you're getting your they're sharing with you, and maybe it has some personal connection, being able to self regulate in the moment and then, because the next hour, you're with someone else. And so I think you know that moment, like, what that looks like in the moment for you, self discipline is like, we got to be able to do what we have to do in a in in our programs and in our field, like, of like, creating a capacity for a lot of work,

and that even if we don't want to do it too. That's what I love, that so it says, it just says, like, it's the people. That's what makes you successful to do the work, is you do it even when you don't want to do it. That discipline piece that I think a lot of us sometimes might yield to in our exhaustion,

and that discipline piece is so important because we're there so like, we don't want to do like, sometimes we just want to veg out. Like, but it the idea of discipline does not mean don't put healthy boundaries in place. Like, don't like, work until 3am if you don't have to, like, if there is, there's ways to schedule around that, right? Like, so, like, I think that's so important, obviously rational, like you talked about rational detachment, being able to detach from

I love that, though, because I think our automatic response sometimes in stress is just attachment, and then it's like we're totally out of the moment. Rational detachment. How can I, very strategically and intentionally, through mindfulness, be able to touch out of the emotion and kind of sit with the logic of what I need and what my values are.

And I might be skipping ahead, but it's the it also is like the idea when we think about rational attachment, is this idea of stoic compassion versus empathy. Empathy is a like, super, super important part of stoicism, but mainly it's a it's, you know, imperative and counseling in the whole discipline, but rational attachment and stoic compassion mirror each other, because it's this way of recognizing and getting to a level with a Client without being covered in that emotion. So I kind of think of it as, like, maybe, like dipping in paint. Like you have this person's gone through this and they were dipped in, kind of like a paint. So that record kind of represents their emotion. We do not ourselves have to jump into the paint and become covered with that we can, you know, put on a wet, I don't know what's or something, to be able to help the client out of that, so we don't have to emotionally experience what they're experiencing. And a lot of times, empathy is we're putting our shoes, we're putting our feet in that person's shoes, and we're walking around in that emotion. And so that that can be really, I think that is a really big part of this, is how to actively practice stoic compassion, and what that looks like organically and kind of moving to, you know, not be so is that detachment from

emotion a little Yeah. And I think part of that then lends itself to dichotomy of control, which is another concept in stoicism. So this idea of what is controllable versus what is not controllable, and you touched on it earlier, Rachel, sort of that perfectionism and counselor training that comes up that we want to be able to control everything, even sometimes what the client says. And so we have this script in our head of what it's supposed to look like, and we're very rigid versus being able to understand like I can only control my reaction in any moment, and the freedom that comes with that.

Yeah and yeah, perfectionism such a big thing within our field too, especially like when you have people in graduate school, it happens. And I know that you've, I think you've talked with Sarah Ellison maybe on this podcast, book, yes. And if you haven't listened to I'm sure, like, it's awesome, she talks about perfectionism in such a beautiful way. And like, works a lot with that. But this idea of like, the economy of control is like, we think that we can control a lot more than we can, and in life, like we might, the lucky part of us would be able to control 20% but in reality, we're more towards about the 10% level. Well, that leaves a huge piece over here that we have we are reacting to. So the superpower is our control of the reaction, which sounds very CBT in a lot of ways, and I think that's why it works so well. But yeah, and I also think it's empowering talk about,

yeah, it's empowering because then we realize we don't just have to have the supervisor guide us through everything. There's this sort of like mental gymnastics we can do through stoicism to find out what's in our control, what's not and what tool we need at that moment to persevere.

Yeah. Yeah. And we'll talk about like, yeah, I was just we're going to talk about like, I think what an actual activity would be for the dichotomy of control, which can be really beneficial, not only for counselors in training or just counselors in general, but for clients. This is something that can be used with our client work too. Because if you work with college students, and I do, I see a lot of perfectionism. So

yeah, so part of what we want to kind of transition to then is, how can we sort of pass this stoicism can be helpful for personal use, but then pass it to trainees, to maybe colleagues. So maybe we can talk a little bit about strategies to cultivate internal control and that mindful detachment. I do know, though, you like to write out about the brain a little bit. Would you want to talk a little bit about just how this, like, actually, can help with the brain and neuroplasticity and, like, a quick little breakdown that maybe people can do more research into to see how, yeah, brain can be resilient if we engage stoicism,

I can, I can definitely do that. We'll do like, but also the idea of, like, what are the what are we seeing like in the classroom too, like, the kind of like, what areas and we come back to that. But, yeah, I'm a neuro like, kind of little nerd so, like, but I want to apologize to anybody who is an actual, like, neuro person that, like, if, if this comes out little clunky, but it can do a lot for our brain. So, um, stoicism, the active practice of that, and sometimes doing hard things, actually engages part of our brain that is makes us super agers as well. So like, cognitively, it's like lifting weights and or kind of like that kind of internal fitness, right, of like combating against things like Alzheimer's dimension, things like that that we've seen exponentially grow in the last several years, decades, but it it, it's this idea of like there's an area in our brain of when we engage in hard tasks or things that we don't want to do. It strengthens this area called the anterior cingulate vortex. And those kind of things are can be really helpful in us creating a healthy brain in the future. So, like this, exact this, you know, practice has a full, like capacity for wellness all the way to, kind of like, you know, in the future. So, but it, it helps. It's an active practice of mental strength, and like increasing neuroplasticity, it kind of engages the frontal lobe, which is our organization, planning empathetic part of our brain, instead of what I like to call the squirrel brain, or the emotional part of the brain, in that limbic system where the fight, flight freeze and emotional brain live. So instead of stuff going directly, there it, our full brain, in a lot of ways, is engaged. So it's kind of like the idea of us being a mental athlete, and these are the workouts for that. So yeah, thanks

for that little breakdown. So yeah, let's go back then a little bit to what are we seeing in counselors in training? What are those deficits we're seeing in resilience and ways that we think integrating stoicism can really help to maybe complement or protect from some of

that? Well, I mean, and you you see this probably a lot more than even I do, but the idea of, like, emotional burnout and compassion fatigue, you know, these are really heavy subjects that students are learning, and if we see that in the active learning process, we need to be aware of what that will look like in a practice setting, right, like of like, if they're already becoming emotionally burned out and lacking in compassion fatigue from the like, um, lecturing of that material or learning of that material, then we need to be aware of what that would look like in practice. That might be something but also, like I said, like students now are exposed to a lot more information and content than ever before, so a lot of that can impact you know, what, what you see. I think one of the books I've read recently is called dopamine nation. It's by Ann limbeck. She's pretty, it's a it's, she's brilliant, and it talks about, like, this kind of consumption, right? Of things, and what, what we consume, and things like that. And. Impact. So I think that it's not this idea of like somebody, of like they don't have the capacity to handle information, like, not at all. It's the idea of like, there's a level of exposure that's out there that's greater than ever before in a lot of content there. You know emotional exhaustion, that really, when we're exhausted, it impacts our judgment overall. But like, APA had a study that came out that talked about what they're actually seeing. And I, I heard this from a talk, actually, when we were at aces last year. And kind of their findings were that students are often really distracted, this idea of them being unmotivated to learn and lacking in productivity, which that one bullet point sounds pretty harsh, like it's like dang, a lot of, over 60% of college students have trouble concentrating on schoolwork in The past, like year this. So those things impact engagement, I don't know. Like, if you've talked in front of your class and you're like, crickets, and you're like, Okay, guys, like, we like counseling is talking and, like, just personation, even retention of information is impacted. So, like, we only have room for so much, and when we have a lot of our brain focused on other things, we can't retain as much. And so, like, I mean, there's dopamine hijacking and things like that. That's, that's what Dr Lim Beck's book talks. I don't know how you say her name, but how it's still great, but I don't know how to say the thing. It kind of what she talks about. So I think that's being seen in some of the classroom settings I know, like at the undergraduate level where I teach now, it can also be seen, and we're working through that. We try to, like, really figure out ways to have students more engaged. And I'm lucky that my students are kind of hopefully buying in a little bit. So yeah, and

I'll link in the show notes to the books that you're talking about too. So that's no worries. But yeah, I think stoicism helped me to have a different way to view newer generations of counseling students, because I think it's easy to kind of jump into more of like, wow. They just don't seem to be able to handle the intensity of content, because you're right. I teach the trauma and crisis counseling courses, and as the years would go on, it seems like I needed to do a lot more mindfulness exercise in class, or emotional regulation assistance, just for them to hear the content of that lecture, not even be in front of a client, doing it by internship, seeing them really burned out, and so it does impair their clinical judgment, because then they can get so dysregulated that it's hard to make really wise choices in a very brief amount of time. So I definitely think there's impacts on their practice. But instead of just thinking like, okay, it's a generational thing, what are those components that are going on emotionally, and then how can we protect them from it? So the solution that we're proposing, yeah, we want to integrate stoic principles so things like focusing on the internal locus of control, concentrating on what the supervisees reactions are versus the external circumstances. So here that reminds me of a lot of supervision sessions of yeah, when a system is broken or designed in such a poor way, how can we focus less on that, unless it's going to lead to action, like you said earlier, of like advocacy and more on, I can control what happens in this hour in this room as a counselor, so shifting that focus or mindful detachment, how can our supervisees and trainees maintain emotional balance and not over invest in client issues to the point of burnout. How can they have those internal boundaries and then long term resilience? I tell my trainees all the time, I need you to stay in this field. So how can I then help them build emotional strength without getting too personal into their stuff? Because we still have boundaries. But yeah, during professional challenges, how did they move from defeat to determination.

Yeah. And I think that that's like, so important, because we do need people to stay in the field, like we're a grow. It's a really growth growing area in in our world. But also, I know this is probably the same Brewer where you are, but where we are, like, there's wait list here, and we have one of the biggest areas where we have plenty of counselors and and psychologists to work, but there's still wait lists. And so we can't afford to lose trainees, because we need we need people, and so how do we how do we do that? And I think those things that you're talking about of are kind of the way to do it. And I think infusing it in the beginning of counseling programs can be really helpful. And the active practice of like. Uh, acceptance of like, this is actually what's happening. Like, I can't do anything to change what's happening. Um, but how am I going to be in that moment? Um, instead of kind of pulling that thing or I'd be bringing that part into their identity,

yeah. And I think even when you talk about integrating it in there, and my foundations, or orientation, course, already starting to build that foundation of stoicism, and then even giving them some of these really powerful, just bite sized quotes from the Stoics, or even from Ryan Holiday to, sort of like set the tone, give them a framework in order to see these challenges. And so one from the book I'm reading now, that discipline is destiny, the power of self control. Self control, I love this quote of when you're lacking motivation, remind yourself, discipline now, Freedom later, the labor will pass and the rewards will last. And I think that is so helpful for trainees who feel like this road to becoming a counselor is so long and so full of adversity and they're exhausted and they're sacrificing so much. Yes, discipline now, Freedom later, to then have the career you want, to have the practice you want, and to have a rewarding career too, which is not guaranteed to all of us, but having that context already, that framework, can kind of help them see those challenges as something to feel determined by.

Yeah, I think that's like, so important. It goes into exactly what we're talking about with the brain, like the discipline now and creating that creates neuroplasticity in the structures of your brain that we want to last and the connections to be stronger. And therefore it happens so if, if our framework, our automatic framework, can be through that lens, like, how beautiful is that like? Instead of an automatic negative framework, I think a lot of people refer to them as ants, right? Like, yeah, little things that bite us, right? If we can have that adaptive framework, whether it's looking through the idea of discipline or what an obstacle looks like, and all of the book that Ryan Holiday writes builds off of the concepts that you're talking about, like of discipline, obstacles, things like that. So because we're we can't just shield people from obstacles. I could walk outside and spelt my toe absolutely neither that moment. I can bring that with me the rest of the day, or, like, isolate it in some way.

Yeah, so as we're then maybe moving to more takeaways, if people are interested in this and say, I want to start using it stoic principles to manage stress. So we've talked about first making sure that we understand the importance of differentiating things that are in our control, like our thoughts, our actions and choices and things that aren't like external events. When we focus on what we can control, we can reduce overall stress and anxiety. So that's a big one. You talked about acceptance. So acceptance is key. Instead of resisting or fighting against unpleasant circumstances, the stoics really taught us how we can encourage acceptance of what is to reduce emotional turmoil that then gives us stress, because what we want is clarity of thought and clarity of emotions. We talked about mindfulness, then to mindfulness, being present without judgment, reducing rumination and worry, which is a common contributor to stress, and then gratitude. And this goes a little bit into journaling problems, which you mentioned that earlier. How can we shift our focus on gratitude of instead of negative things, positive things, and what are the good things in our life to cultivate a more positive outlook? Also visualization as a key. So we've got some visualization, some journaling, and then some prompts that we want to encourage people to utilize

and even go back to like, practicing acceptance. Like, there's this idea of like, we have to accept everything. I think it's the litmus test of urge versus action in that point of, like, No, we don't have to accept everything. Like, that is, like, an injustice, but that that requires action, right? And so like, that kind of idea, because a lot of people will in that, in the misunderstanding, or, like, conceptualizing of stoicism will kind of break down these points, but yeah, like, you know different things that we've talked about, the strengthening techniques of, like, Thinking about mindfulness, right? We mindful meditation, journaling, gratitude practice. So those things, and, like, even helpful things on therapist aid, like, there is a gratitude journal on there, um, there's one that you can buy that's like a six minute gratitude journal, or five minute that you can do kind of every day. It's a kind of a RE, it's a reframe, um, Stoke, journaling, the idea. And I think you found this from and Frank quote like, patient, paper is more patient than people, right? We we get our ideas out before we make a it a thing, and then we go back and read it, and you're like, am I actually feeling that way? Or was it. Just in that moment. That's

so true, right? Like the plan is destiny. Ryan actually wrote, I just wrote this chapter this morning where he talks about how Abraham Lincoln used to write all these, like scathing letters out of reaction and emotional turmoil, but he at least had the wisdom to just like, stick them in a drawer instead of sending them off. Versus some of our other leaders who are more reactive with their words. How can I journal it out, but then still be wise enough to kind of hold on to it. I know that this may be a fleeting emotion.

Yeah, we have, and we have, like, I'll talk about some journaling prompts in a minute, but like, the idea of, like, say you're a supervisee and your supervisors in, or you get feedback on something else and you really didn't like it, something about it bothered you. If you were to write a response or a letter or something about how that made you feel, get it out of there, then revisit it and look through the lens of like, Is this making me better? Is this feedback that I got congruent with why I chose the counseling field. Is it congruent with a growth mindset? Can I turn the lens into that with and kind of look through it in that way, and if not, kind of, maybe, kind of being able to get some counsel, I guess, after that, like, or even figuring out ways, because if it's it's, if the urge is so big, it might be to be talked about, right of, of kind of those things. Um, yeah, that actually

reminds me, like Marcus Aurelius quote, choose not to be harmed and you won't feel harmed. Don't feel harmed and you haven't been I'm right there. I can choose to write a story that I feel harmed by this, or I feel wounded by it, or I can just choose to let it go, have a short memory about it, and get back to the work.

And like, I hope that people can see, like, we obviously both have a CBT background, but like that is a you can move that move, use this in narrative therapy, like certain things like that. Well, CBT techniques like cognitive restructuring, the stoic challenge of like, what would a stoic think about this behavioral activation and then the idea of like, value based living. We have values ethically, ethical counseling, values that a lot of times we need to return to, not just in an ethical decision making model of like, what are these things and how do they represent, like, how I'm feeling right now, and do I need to have a perspective change? Am I feeling internally hurt, or, you know, vice versa? Obviously, we talk about self care tips a little bit. So important, practical self care, though, like physical health, emotional well, being, all of that. Boundary setting, one of the things that talk about prioritizing rest sleep resets the brain like So yes, there is discipline in getting the work done and discipline in setting yourself up for success in a routine in some ways, even for people like me who are more out there, not routine heavy, you know, but I know I can recognize that that's not my strong suit, and need to incorporate that more mindful walks so the outdoor reset is an idea, like, it's, it's this reset. So, I mean, like we got to leave the devices away. I know it sound like, Oh, Grandma, leave the phones at home. But like, one of the quotes that Seneca had is we should take wandering outdoor walks so that the mind might be nourished and refreshed by the open air and deep breathing. So it's essentially, it's just grounding us back to reality. A lot of times, even in offices, the more that we can bring the outside in, the more grounding the space. And I

like what you said too about values based living. I think that's really key, too, when maybe our trainees or us get so distracted by the other components, get back to what the values are and what the work is. Am I doing the work? Is this leading me towards the work? If it's not, then it doesn't matter. So I think it also even helps with boundary setting of what to say yes or no to and what to engage in or not. There are so many pools for our attention as counselors, because we have strong social skills. People feel safe around us. How can I protect though that energy in order to do what the actual work is and sustain that? So I think that reflection on values is so key, too, with decision making and

wisdom Absolutely, because it's really we get overwhelmed. And I think the idea of the return to the value, return to the origin of what we're doing, return to the statement that you made when you applied for the counseling program. Somebody told me to do that one time to see if I was still in a lot like, if I still aligned with that. And I was like, that was a that was a kid or a person that that really. Right, like that. That was in it for, you know, hopefully, for the right reasons. And it kind of refreshed it sometimes when we go revisit those, and that's why these journaling prompts, maybe at the beginning in an orientation class can be so powerful, right? Like that can be those things. Of course, things are going to change, but and then we talked about the dichotomy of control. One exercise to do that is, like, the things within my control, kind of notebook. It's honestly like pros and cons, kind of list them on both sides of stage. I mean that not the stage. What stage the notebook that you have that could be good, and then being the stoic sage, in a way, is this idea of practicing and responding even to hypothetical conversations in this like calm, rational manner. Try it with your family when you're getting like frustrated or something.

It makes me think of one of my favorite tools as a catastrophizer of negative visualization, of actually picturing, sort of what could the worst case scenario be like? Be able to kind of create a plan, but already sitting with building that emotional strength on the what if and that, yeah, things are permanent. And even though I prefer something to be like this, I have enough emotional strength to also tolerate that worst case now not ruminate on it, because that's where it becomes unproductive, but sort of as an exercise to build that emotional strength and tolerance,

yeah. And like, even asking ourselves, like, is this survivable? Yeah? Like, is this moment the worst case scenario is survivable? And a lot of times, yeah, it really is.

Almost always

it is yeah, if I yeah and go get a milkshake and I feel okay some but the catastrophizing nature brings us to the idea that it is something not survivable, exactly.

So we've been teasing journal prompts. Maybe we can give a few journal prompts that would be a starting point that supervisors and Counselor Educators might be able to use, or even counselors in practice. First, when we have, do I need to have an opinion about this? I think even that's a powerful one, we are so quick to react. And I think social media has done that to us, that we all have an opinion about everything. Do I actually have to expend energy and have an opinion on this?

Yeah, and I think that one again, that one kind of highlights that urgent action point that we talked about, um, and I will say, like, and I know that we're gonna put these in the show notes, but this, a lot of these journal prompts are from the daily stoic, which is Ryan holidays book that has daily prompts and wisdom for for individuals, it's like the daily stoic journal and, and so, yeah, I cannot take credit, you know, which could but again, but yeah, another one is like, and I think this one's particularly is good for at the beginning here, of like, the orientation classes of what am I learning and studying for? Who am I and what do I stand for? Those that idea of like what I stand for is it is the value like, what values? And if those values aren't replicated or highlighted in the counseling profession, that would be a good idea, right, that we're not necessarily in the right place, and that's okay. We gotta it might be some time to find something like you. You only know when you reflect, right? Like, how? How do your values follow your actions? Absolutely, what parts are driven by anger, I think that one's a good one or other emotion, fear, fears, visions. This is, it's supervision. This is a good one, right? Like, of like, get feedback, maybe the first time, on a on a recording or a tape. And the idea of getting that, just the idea, before you even get the feedback. There's so much fear. What is that? What's going on there? The idea of failure, or something like that. And then return to this idea of like, failure isn't something that's gonna happen. Like it, you know, it can happen. We are in an academic setting, but a lot of times it's it's, that's the worst case scenario, and it's, it's more of, like, the lens of, like, I did it this way, to know if that way is actually okay, like, to know if I need to grow here, and that is a I've had to really learn that like, of like, being okay with messing up. And I, not all supervisors are created equal. I recognize that. I mean, I had you so I feel like I had the best possible situation going on. I did not. I was not afraid to mess up. And even if, like, there was something that I might have been feeling and didn't even recognize you would be you knew that I needed. The direct call out, right? So I recognize that necessarily not everybody is created equal in the training that they get, but

I really like the one, how can this be exactly what I needed? I feel like that's such a powerful reframe that even though this wasn't an expected outcome or the ideal one, this might actually still exactly build the muscles that I need to or help me practice or laser focus on what the work is and what I have in front of me.

I love that one. Yeah, I think you're right there.

So that gives just a few journal points. I feel like there's so many others that can kind of get pulled by what other authors have already done. But a few journal points. We also want to talk a little bit about maybe how this could look, as far as helping trainees develop, like a self care plan too. So we have, like, a little bit of a scenario, just to kind of put it in action, Rachel and I both like to be super practical about things. So say Rachel that if we have a counselor and trainee who feels overwhelmed by a high caseload and challenging client situations, maybe one of the first steps we might want to do is help them to be mindful and just kind of focus and reflect first. So we might do maybe step one, an immediate breathing exercise. What do you feel like with breathing and actually be helpful with supervisees, even though that seems really obvious, but in that moment of kind of practicing stoicism, do

you mean, like, a specific technique?

Well, no, we can have them, like, take deep breaths, slow breath. Do the forward and pull out. But as far as, like, helping them to slow down, of like, How can I focus on my internal control kind of part?

Yeah, I mean, well, the breathing isn't a lot of people will be like, Oh, deep breathing, like, oh goodness, like, whatever. So I know, but it's the one thing science says that actually works, right? Our research says actually works. It's the active part of slowing down the internal processes that are being led by an emotion, not a fact, but an emotion. And so it's kind of the the reset internally. And if we can, kind of, we got, you know, we think about, like a Sud scale, or like, if anybody's ever been in the hospital, which I hope they have it, but like they have the, like, little smiley face board, we take the smiley face down to more manageable. So if we can kind of decrease the intensity which that decreases the area that's using, the fight, flight freeze and into the frontal lobe, then we can think more clearly about the situation. So that is a, yeah, the definite, definite action oriented step. That's the that's the step first of doing that. It is

because right there now we have taught them to build that emotional strength by being able to reduce their emotional stress. So first, they have to regulate so they can have wisdom. Then step two, we can go to the rational reflection. So how can we have the trainee reflect on a situation that is stressful in that caseload management through a stoic lens? So maybe aspects that are in their control, what they can do about and you can even get them to journal from there, right be encouraging them to write down their thoughts and kind of focusing on what is acceptable and then rationalizing what their next action would be.

It can be like this idea of even pulling in a little DBT, like the wise or, I don't know if it's DBT, the wise mind, but like, looking, yeah, looking at the idea of emotional, rational and in between, right? Like, of like, where are we? And then when we get kind of, it can be even thematically, for us, is like, or for people that are supervisors, of like, what is the thought that can lead to the to a journaling prompt later. Um, but the idea of, like, paper being page, right? Like, get it out, see what's going on and see what the emotion that's leading them in that type of, yeah,

because I'm right there. We've talked, like, rational detachment,

and I like the the one you said, the control. So, like, splitting the paper into like, right, and doing that?

Yeah. So that's an example of one way you could be able to do it the same way that if a counselor and trainee maybe is dealing with a particularly challenging client, same thing. How can I engage in mindfulness techniques to help them to emotionally detach and take perspective? Which perspective taking is a huge part of stoicism. So maybe then we have the trainee at practice emotional detachment during these challenging sessions. Maybe they can observe their emotional response without judgment, and then we can encourage them to visualize their emotions separate from themselves, so that they can respond calmly and objectively to the client. So right there, we're teaching them emotional regulation for immediate reactions,

even in supervision in that way, like of, like a role play, of where you take on this particular client for them, so they can have the active practice in front of you, and then, um, being able to, you know, detach or emotionally regulate of, and I think the separation from. Um, there, the client being aggressive doesn't mean that it's you that's caught like that. You're the cause of these, all these, a lot of times we internal, like we can automatically internalize that. So again, that separation,

um, so yeah, and then say, we go to the next step of trying to get the supervisee to do perspective taking, to try to get in that position of the challenging client, having them to reflect on maybe the client's background, possible reasons for their behavior, encouraging them to understand the client's circumstances, then can maybe help to distance a little bit, to manage their reactions and responses now that stoic principle, empathy and understanding, but through rational thought versus emotional thought

and this can like, this can CR, this can happen in such a moment of like, when we practice these things, like, in session with this person, this happens like, for that counselor immediately, right? Like, it can be like, okay, these steps of like, trying to internally, have this built in to what they're doing. And Rachel

and I also understand, like these are things that likely many of you all are already doing in supervision, but hopefully, through this doses and framework, it helps you to organize your thoughts, versus Yeah, just in a moment being like, well, try this or try this. And it's kind of throwing the whole kitchen sink being able to say, No, I really want my trainees to focus on that emotional strength, on being able to think rationally, on being able to take care of themselves. It just really hits a lot of the highlights that have already been shown to be key in our profession, but in a model that, again, has stood the test of time in history. So maybe we can start kind of closing up with talking about how we can help supervisees have a little bit of a personal wellness plan through stoicism. So we've kind of broken it down into four categories. First, self assessment, anything that you want to kind of help encourage them. Rachel, as far as helping trainees with self assessment and wellness planning.

Um, I mean, I think knowing yourself is, like, one of the things that is super important. I mean, when you go through any of your core sequences, there is an idea of self assessment reflected, I mean, built into that. So it's just taking that and using it in your in your personal life, right? Like it's like, not just doing it, because this is a class thing to do, or whatever, but trying to build this thing of, like, paying attention to your own body, like, what's going on? Where am I feeling these things? And then, like, what are my reactions to things I can't control? So I think like that, that type of, you know, self assessment, I'm sure that you have,

yeah, no, right there, right

there. You

gave this principle of what Epictetus says about focusing on what you can control or not so. And we're really just kind of summarizing at this point to kind of make sure all these different areas that Rachel and I geek out about makes sense in this like one big package. So with self assessing, yes, having our supervisees identify their stressors and assessing their coping strategies. And there, that's where you can talk about the dichotomy of control, daily self care routines. Rachel's already talked about the importance of things that seem simple, like sleep, but even regular exercise, balanced diet, hydration. You won't believe how many times I've had to ask a supervisee who's just so burned out, have you even had water today, like something as simple as them slowing down water a lot of times we can take for granted. That's where then we can encourage our trainees to practice mindfulness meditation and then reflection through journaling, even some of those prompts professional boundaries we've talked about too, how we can set and maintain clear boundaries, manage caseload. It's our job to then also hold regular supervision meetings to help, kind of honor that and help show that seeking wisdom and maintaining professional integrity is key, and then emotional resilience, going back to that control, rational detachment, and then reflecting on adaptability and emotional regulation. Seneca writes a lot about that, how all those things can really be made into a wellness plan that then supervisees feel that they can kind of have these tools to stay

and going back, like, just professional boundaries. I know how hard that is, especially as a counselor in training, like saying no is very daunting. That's again, self assessment, like of like, where are these areas where you where do you have trusted relationships where you can say that, um, and and building from there, building boundaries from there, I think that's a good first step is like trying to assess where you can and where you're safe, and saying no, because I know a lot of like, perfectionism, again, sneaks into to like, I've got To do all of these things all the time, but this will only set you up for professional success and emotional success well being overall. If you can learn to do that, it's something that I am not great at. So I'm still learning work in progress,

which is also part of the stoic principles of sort of like this evolving side. That we have and that we always reflect on, how can I improve myself more each day? So do you want to share, maybe any additional resources that people want to know more? And then I will end with, I think a great apt quote for this.

Um, well, I think stoicism wise. Um, meditations, Marcus Aurelius book. I mean, that has stood the test of time overall, it's old and still got some really good stuff in it. The obstacles away, I think, I don't know if we, yeah, we talked about that. That's actually what I was reading this morning. And I don't want anybody think like, oh, they're just reading stoicism all the time. No, not all the time, but it is. I do like to keep it

pretty regular, though the world is tough right now, and players have plenty of writing on it to kind of keep me grounded.

Yeah. Um, yeah. I think it's, I think it's, it's kind of like one of those, like, bet those table books that you kind of keep out and like, I'll revisit it. Yeah, the ego. Ego is the Enemy is a really good one, I know, especially even in business principles of like, I don't know like, I've heard more businessmen talk about the enemy than I thought I would,

but I feel it really helpful with trainees, because so many times their ego is what gets in the way of them being able to kind of focus on The work because they're so afraid of doing it right. Doing It Wrong or getting her so I actually do, like, recommending ego as the enemy for trainees too. Yeah?

Well, yeah. And so, like, for a long time, if you're a really good student, and you made all A's, like, and you're like, I've made all A's, and then you go into my identity, completely different assessment type, yeah, of, of I'm being assessed for the skill and the practice of something I'm doing. And it's not a or b related, it's it is about providing feedback that is in this, in this new model of learning that itself can be a hit to the ego. So, um, that's a good one. The Daily stoic is obviously really good. That's the that's kind of a wisdom for each day, there's a journal that goes along with that that we kind of referenced in. The journal prompts. The Beginner's Guide to stoicism is something that, like, whenever I was starting learning about stoicism, it kind of explains all of it, like, what it is, is a philosophy, and then the daily stoke podcast. And then, I think I said dopamine nation, neuroscience Huberman, Huberman labs, like, I enjoy it, because he breaks some of this stuff down into what a five year old can understand. And if I, and that is me, so I like being able to understand it and but again, like he has a range of topics. I mean, I haven't listened to all of all of them, but, yeah, those are kind of some of the extra things that that I would get started. There's a wealth of, wealth of stuff out there. So

absolutely, so we've given a little maybe, like a taste test, of ways that you can incorporate this as a tool that I hope is helpful. Obviously, Rachel and I really find a lot of use in it, and so it felt important to be able to share broadly. And so I'll end with a quote again, from discipline is destiny. But I think is really apt for what we've been talking about, that says some days will be hard. Actually, that's not true. Many days will be hard. The hard days will outnumber the easy ones, but the meaningful days will also outnumber the meaningless ones. And again, bringing something like this to trainees to just understand the bigger picture of what we're doing, versus the temporary discomfort we might feel as part of the process of being a professional counselor, I think really can just help people to retain not even just being in the field, but thriving in it as well. Rachel, thank you so much for coming back and talking about something else that brings you energy and passion, but with temperance, because the stoics also worn against too much passion, because that can make us emotional and reckless, so with temperance and discipline. Thank you, and we will let you go on with your day. But this was another episode of the thoughtful counselor podcast. See you all again.

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