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542: When Clients View Architects as a Burden with Enoch & Rion | Otter.ai

542: When Clients View Architects as a Burden with Enoch & Rion

Enoch Sears53min

Enoch Sears

00:00

value in any situation is always going to be communicated through your understanding of the client. Hello,

Rion Willard

00:05

and welcome to the Business of Architecture. I hope all you listeners are in good spirits. I'm here joined by the CEO of the Business of Architecture. Mr. Enoch Sears himself. How are you, sir?

Enoch Sears

00:19

Hello, Ryan,

Rion Willard

00:21

good to have you on the show, as always and good to have one of our wonderful conversations. So today, we're going to talk about a problem that we hear a lot here at Business of Architecture with our clients when there is frustration that has been built up with the relation ship with a client, because the client is seeing you as a burden. They're not recognizing the value of the architect. And the whole fact that they have to have an architect seems like a problem seems like a burden seems like an unnecessary expense. And that's a really difficult situation to be in as an architect. It's quite deflating, it's quite undermining. And it can be a real obstacle to charging, certainly premium fees. And I think it's becoming again, you know, it's certainly becoming a more default paradigm that other people in the construction industry are in and there's a wider conversation around why that is, and and what what that's about. This podcast is produced by Business of Architecture, a leading business consultancy for architects and design professionals. This episode is sponsored by Smart practice, business of architectures, flagship program to help you structure your firm for freedom, fulfillment, and financial profit. If you want access for our free training on how to do this, please visit smart practice method.com. Or if you want to speak directly to one of our advisors about how we might be able to help you please follow the link in the information. Today we're going to talk about just understanding what this what the situation is when the client says he was a burden and what you can actually do to avoid it. And I think both in Nick and myself are very much on the, in the camp of taking responsibility for it. Because when we take responsibility for how we're being perceived, then we've got a lot of options open up of how we can start to influence it. So it's a way it's good, we can get into the complaint about how everyone is shitting on the architect and seeing them as a burden and all this other kind of stuff. But when we take it on as as part of it's something that we have, we've failed to communicate, something's missing. Okay. And if we look at it like that, then it becomes much more empowering conversation.

Enoch Sears

02:56

Absolutely. Something's missing an understanding a clarification, something, something's causing this, per this perception to continue. Something causing this perception to be embedded. Something is causing this perception to be perpetuated about, and I'll give an example here, because earlier today, we were on. So those of you who are listening, maybe for the first time here Business of Architecture, over the past 10 years, we've developed a program called an executive training program for firm leaders, where we walk you step by step through how to implement the smart practice method in your practice to get more freedom, fulfillment, and exceptional financial reward. And so I'm one of the calls that we had that are part of the program with the students who are going through this program. One of the architects is a very accomplished architects doing very well financially. But he's just talking about some of the challenges current challenges these having any mentioned a small project that they're working on right now. Where the client has, they hired the low bidder, which is not uncommon. So in terms of the contractors who are bidding for the project, the the client ended up going with the lowest bidding contract, contract, contractor. Obviously not uncommon, you know, every client is different, sometimes clients, they will disqualify whoever's at the bottom that disqualify whoever's at the top and they'll try to shoot for the middle. In any case, in this case, they ended up with a contractor who was sort of like in over his head with this particular job. So he's a he's a he's a contractor who's does residential work and this is a commercial project. So obviously, the building codes are different from residential to commercial as well as the construction standards are different. This particular product is being built metal studs, so just that in and of itself is different than wood construction that we have here in the US. And and this this firm owner is just just venting responsibly, of course, but he was venting about how the client has become, has started to complain about the architect site visits in his seeing their their involvement in the contract administration process as being a burden as being a cost. And you know, kind of not wanting the architects to be out there as much because he's just seeing that he's having to pay for their $300 An hour visits out to the job site. And so that's firmado kind of express. Yeah, I've never been able to really crack this nut, it seems like clients when we get to the construction contract administration phase, that they always start to see us as, as an unnecessary expense, they start to see us as a burden. Not only that, but oftentimes, because the contractor is there, every single day, and the client is probably on site as well, the client, the architect gets blamed for a whole load of stuff, specifying things that are too expensive, maybe not knowing what they're doing in certain regards, when in this case, the reality of the reality of the situation is that the contractor is in over his head. And he's he's stretching, he's stretching to do a project that's, that's more involved than what he's used to. And so as a result, there's a lot of change orders happening. There are some things are being installed incorrectly. So the instructor, the inspectors come out to the site, and they're like, Okay, this, you install the light fixtures incorrectly can't do them like this, you got to take them out and redo it according to the plans. And then of course, the contractor, it's because the contractor has the ear of the client, it's easy for the contractor to say, it's that architect, you know, these drawings don't make sense. I don't understand them. And so then the architect ends up getting painted in a bad light. So there's a lot of different ways we can look at this perception of how you as an architect, or your firm may be perceived as, as the bad guy in these situations. And this can be really, it's really frustrating for architects, because we know that these things are not costs, we know that these things are saving the client money, typically, not all the time. But typically the reason why can't Why an architect would do contract admin is because they want to save the improper installation of things that want to catch things early. So that they prevent mistakes from happening. Right. But as you start off this episode around, we're talking about, what do you do when you know how do you handle that when clients who's a burden, because if it's not happened now, on a project that may happen later in the project, and a lot, sometimes to clients, they might not even express to you that they feel like you're a burden. But in the back of their head, when they go into sleep, they're thinking, Man, these architects wish wouldn't have to work with them. So there's an example of when an architect can be perceived as a burden. Just one small example. It's

Rion Willard

07:40

very frustrating. And it's very frustrating for for us because we hear our clients talk about these scenarios all the time, we had another client recently, who had been working on a project up to planning phases here in the UK. And their project was about to be submitted. And the scope had grown quite significantly, as often happens. In a project how started off the client said they wanted one thing, the reality of it was when conversations started unfolding, and more details were coming up, they wanted more and more things to put into the house, the scope expands and initial costing gets put out, the price of the estimate is considerably more than what they had, you know what they were thinking about the at the the architects kind of starting to get blamed and the architect is now wanting more fees, because the project has expanded.

Enoch Sears

08:45

But the client is not thrilled about that. And of course,

Rion Willard

08:47

the client was not happy about that at all, the contractor who brought the architect on to the project was not happy about it. And it's a very difficult situation for the for the architect, because they were like, well, going forward has to be more fees, because the project is did some totally different project. And you guys are saying that this is what you want. You're saying that you want this, but now you want you're expecting me to work at a lower fee on what's deserved or what's needed to deliver this project properly. And it was very unfortunate situation as this person ended up parting ways with the contract because the contractor was just like, well, we'll do this, we'll do the rest of the service for them.

Enoch Sears

09:28

Sure, sure. That all that goes. And,

Rion Willard

09:31

you know, our client held their ground about you know, we're not going to budge on on this. This is what's needed for the project. This is what you've been asking for. It was a very difficult scenario in the sense that the client had been brought to the architect through the contractor. And now the contractor was kind of the contractor was in cahoots with the client and kind of saying, Well, I you know, they weren't advocating for the for the architect. They weren't advocating for the value that the architect would bring, particularly that was needed for such a complex project to deliver it at a high level of caliber. And again, it was just another another example of the architect being seen as a unnecessary cost. And it's very rare that it's very rare that a client actually gets to see the real cost of the architect, compared to the rest of the investment that they're making on the project. And also what the investment in the architect how much money it saves them, and how much and how much pain it makes them avoid. That's the other that's the other thing. And one of the perhaps more difficult things about being an architect is that a lot of the services are navigating somebody through holes and dangerous precipices. And goals and dangerous situations that they never knew that they were actually exposed to in the first place, which is what again, this is scary forest, which is which is again, which is actually kind of we can start to see that being on part of our responsibility to educate the client to know that that's what we're, we're guiding them through, we're guiding them past. And there's a there's a skill to be able to kind of frighten the client without it being, you know, always doom and gloom and negativity, one

Enoch Sears

11:33

of the one of the results of this is that you as an architect end up being in the, in the uncomfortable position of having to having to justify your fees. In other words, you're you're having to, you're already on your back foot. And now you have to explain and justify why you're valuable. Oftentimes, if you get to that point, it's kind of it's almost too late. And it's not, but it's kind of like, we've got to ask ourselves the question, how do we how did we get here? Now, how did I get here? And it was asking this question has been very useful in my life, which is like, Okay, here's where I am. How did we get here? When? Where's the road that led to this, this intersection? And when fees become contentious? Yeah, I mean, client to client relationships can be damaged. As Ryan mentioned, this example there, obviously, I would doubt that this contractor is going to refer work to this architect in the future, right, so you may lose a referral source. It's not good for anyone.

Rion Willard

12:31

It's a difficult, it's a difficult, unpleasant, messy situation. And we can expand upon that as well, you know, when fees become contentious, or when were struggling to justify our value there, there are definitely certain phases of the architectural scope of work that a client can more is more easily able to understand the value if you like. And those are those stages of work, perhaps it's in the concept phase, often it is they can see a lot of value that the architect brings in, but once they've once those initial set of drawings, they're like, well, well, why do I need you anymore? We've got this and we're going to take these drawings. And sometimes when I've been in this situation, the days in business, where the client is so sure, on this, that almost your part, believing them or I did any of the rest of these drawings? Yeah. Yeah. Is my whole existence meaningless. They seem so confident that that's all they need that so they need to get to get the rest of this done. Why can't they just go off and build it? But it's very difficult to know without actually having the experience of what what happens when you give contractors missing information. And the experience of having misaligned expectations of oh, I wasn't expecting the floor to do that. Oh, I had no idea that beam was going to be there in the middle of our kitchen. Oh, the windows don't go down to the, to the floor. Oh, there's all these sorts of Allah wasn't expecting it to be that kind of quality of material.

Enoch Sears

14:15

But it's, you know, a lot of it is just unclear expectations. I remember hearing about a client who had had a custom home built and the lady who was commissioning the project was very, very fastidious, shall shall we say. And she came in and she looked at the floors that had been specified that already been installed. And they were like this natural wood and it had like this ebony finish on it, but because it was a natural wood, and whatever the finish was, they finished it afterwards. So it wasn't prefinished she wasn't happy with how the stain laid down on the floor. She found that it looked like there's some areas were darker, some areas were lighter, etc, etc. And of course So this is this is, this is the reality with any natural substance, when you have a natural substance you're going to find and you'll see disclaimers, you know, on, on, on on products that are that are part of like nature, you know, just saying like, hey, there may be discoloration, there may be there may be things may be different sizes, that's just because it's a product of nature. And, and and of course, in the specifications, there were certain specifications about about these variations, which is typical for architecture, we're going to, we're going to deliver the specifications, but built in every specification is a tolerance, meaning there's a tolerance for variation. You know, even in our general notes in our drawings, you know, there was a tolerance for for dimensions, either 16th, or an eighth of an inch, depending on what you're measuring to, and what you're installing, like a wall, you don't need, you don't need 1/32 of an inch, typically, for a wall measurement, you know, if you're the if you're the architectural intern who's, you know, you're showing your project architect the drawing, and it has like 330 seconds of an answer, you're gonna have a little, you're gonna have a little lesson there, right? That you're gonna want to generally try to stick to the inch, maybe a half inch, when you're you're measuring, you know, you don't want to see things, a whole string of walls measure to the eighth of an inch. So clients don't understand that there's tolerances within architecture, that, you know, even studs themselves can be not exactly straight all the time, you know, walls will not always be 100. We're not building a spaceship here. This isn't NASA. You know, this is it. This is a building and yes, there's tolerances. And yes, we want to get it to a certain level a standard of care, as they call it. So part of this is just the misunderstanding where clients think that everything is like written in stone, like once you get those drawings, it's like the 10 commandments, you cannot deviate from this. And it's, it needs to be exactly this way exactly like it says, as opposed to understanding that no, there's actually wiggle room built in. Because we're being Expeditious, about how much time we spent designing something, you could design it out to the nth degree. And of course, that's going to massively increase the cost of design. So part of this process is again, that the clients have an unclear expectation about what they're getting about what's involved in architecture, about how the whole process works. So when we look at the possibility, let's let's flip over and say, Okay, those are some of the problems that we suffer, what are some of the possibilities. So let's imagine that your clients actually see you as an asset, they see you as a trusted adviser. They see the fees that they pay you as, as valuable investments, they're happy to pay those fees, because they know that you're safeguarding their best interest.

Rion Willard

17:37

Yeah, so there's an underlying understanding from the client side, and I think, most importantly, an appreciation, actually having a relationship with with your client where they say thank you. And they appreciate the, the kind of little the thoughtfulness that goes into a lot of the details and how you're, you know, the care that's helping avoid certain pitfalls, or the money that's being saved, you know, or the mistakes that are being avoided. That's, that's, you know, that's one of the things where, you know, so many times the client is not aware of the mistakes that had the potential of being very real, very expensive, very timely, you know, very obtrusive to the whole project as a whole. And you've graciously navigated through them. Without without kind of falling into I think if clients understood that this idea of being much more appreciative would be really, really, really great. I'll give you an example of this actually, I'm on our we're doing our apartment in New York. And we've been renovating it and the general contractor that we have worked with, was an architect. And he's, he's not normally a general contractor. But he took on the GC role for our project because he's he was an architect who's now become a millworker and like a furniture maker and he just builds these just extraordinary bits of furniture and things like that. And he's a good friend, and he came in and did a lot of the millwork in our, in our house. But he took it a step further. And this is kind of part of him being him thinking like an architect, not like a general contractor, where he wanted to make sure that his millwork looked as good as it possibly could in the context of the space and became so demanding of the other sub consultants or the other builders, the other trades people that were in the space that it was like this whole level of extra value that I kept, like you know, I was talking to Yvonne a lot of time a little example, somebody came in to install the radiator and A guy who wanted to install the radiator wants to wanted to have it, you know, half a foot a foot off the wall, because basically that's where the pipe was. And he didn't want to muck around with having a finding a different bent pipe and whatever come it was more complicated for having him to have it inset on the wall, and remand the mill worker, basically frightened him and had had had a go at him in the past for taking those kind of shortcuts had a very stern conversation with him and was like, You're gonna do it like this. And here's how you can figure it out. And it's easy. And just do it. And he went and did it. And it was like one of those one of those little things that, you know, we would have been really upset if the radiator was not where we wanted it. And the he could have read the tradesperson could have easily convinced me of like, okay, well, that's, you know, it's too complicated, blah, blah, blah. And we'd be like, Okay, fine, whatever. Yeah, but that, but that little bit of extra control was like, Oh, we got what we wanted. And that's, that's what architects do. That's the that's, that's the kind of strength and the, and when you magnify that over the whole course of a project, lots of little decisions. That's the, that's the value. Yep.

Enoch Sears

21:15

So the challenge here, and what what needs to be done when we look at a solution, or the principle is, is that you number one, you need to be able to communicate, this is a communication issue. So let's pretend like you as an architect, you're listening this podcast today, your you're not a charlatan, you're not someone who's ethically ripping people off, you're not cheating people, you actually do have great value. And so then the challenge is communicating that value in a way that people understand in a way that they get not only that, they get it, but they actually own it. Because see, there's a difference. When you're in communication, there's a difference between someone understanding what you're saying, someone getting what you're saying, and someone actually owning the idea or the concepts behind what's being communicated. So value, the key principle here is that value in any situation is always going to be communicated through your understanding of the client, meaning you need to be able to meet the client where they're at with how they perceive the world. If you have any chance of influencing that perception, this is story comes to mind, I'm going to I'm going to pull draw from my marriage here, because this is something that, like communication is huge in any relationship and partnership. We were we were over there in England, about a week ago, and we're coming back, and we're on the train. And we were we were just talking about something insignificant. And I shared, I said it inside a revelation that it had popped into my head, I'm sharing it with my wife, and she wasn't getting it. She wasn't understanding what I was saying. And so it devolved into a bit of an argument. Right. And so now we have, I mean, I don't like being an argument, my wife, now we have, we have bad feelings on both sides, the connections broken. So I want I'm looking to restore the connection. And as I was thinking about that situation, and exactly what it occurred, what had happened there, I realized that I wasn't, I wasn't in my wife's shoes, so I didn't actually understand her perspective. So because of that, I was doing things like trying to convince her that I was right, show her my perspective, trying to get her to understand me, instead of following, of course, what the what the great business consultant Stephen R. Covey says is seek first to understand and then to be understood. So part of this process of you communicating your value, you're gonna have any shot of let's say, getting a raise from your boss of hiring a new client, any any sort of persuasion that you have in your interaction with another human being, you must be able to step into their world, see how they're viewing things. And then from there, then we can chart a path to where we both want to go together. Absolutely.

Rion Willard

23:48

So it's really the context through where value is communicated, is understanding and under an understanding another person's perspective paradigm. And in the context of sales, we always talk about, we talk about the problem or the pain, like what are the real emotional drivers behind the project? Where are the where are the things that cause upset and this takes a little bit of time and skill to a develop that kind of relationship with the client, so that you can understand what what you know, understand what it is that's motivating them? And, again, if we're dealing with commercial clients, this is where becoming good and well versed in what are the commercial pains and problems that their businesses are dealing with? What are their what are the challenges they're facing? What are the issues that they're constantly butting up against? Where are they losing money? Where do they want to be making money? Where is their their big vision? gin, and they've got to be, you know, the project that they're working on, they've got to be motivated to complete it exactly.

Enoch Sears

25:08

If so if you know, yeah, if a client sees us as burden sees architects as a burden, then part of our job is to actually step into the clients will and understand why. Okay, great. Now, they might not communicate that they see us as a burden. But generally, we can go into it thinking that, you know, they're gonna want to see our value. That's another way of stating this is like, okay, they're gonna want to share value so that we need to step into the world. And it's not easy to to it's not easy to do, which is why it's a lifelong journey, to hone your skills of communication to understand. But sometimes, for instance, you may, you may want to understand why why do they feel that we're a burden? Or why would they not want us to do see or something like that? Well, maybe because they're concerned about the cost. It's like, okay, so is cost your primary concern in this instance? They might say, Yes, it is. And then you can say, okay, great, if cost is your primary instance, would it make a difference? If you were to see that conclusively that this investment in the service with us is actually saving you multiples, guaranteed of what you spend with us? And then then see, then you could start to leverage on what they said they actually care about, and show them how, what we do matches up with that. Right? So when we when we don't ask enough questions, when we don't lean in with curiosity to try to figure out someone else's worldview, we make the mistake of making assumptions. Another example, we had a client architect who is, again, talking to us about a project, an amazing project that he just won, buddy almost lost it. Because he discovered along the process that they had, even though they agreed to work with him, they had they had started looking at other options and other architects. And so typically, his first reaction was, oh, no, maybe it's about the cost. Maybe they're trying to shop me around to find a cheaper architect, because, you know, this architect doesn't compete on price. So we teach the competes on value. And that's a normal assumption for most of us to make when we hear that a client's shopping us around or whatever it must be about the cost. Well, fortunately, he put on his head cap of curiosity leaned in, and instead of getting defensive about it, or getting belligerent, or getting offended, or anything like that, or even feeling frustrated, leaned in with curiosity to find out what actually was going on. And what he ended up discovering was that this particular client, it wasn't the money, it was actually the time that that was projected for the project to take, that they were concerned about. And when he dug deeper, he discovered, Oh, it wasn't just because they're just, they just want to rush things. No, they had a pending health crisis, that they that they needed to have the space finished by a certain time. So they had a looming deadline, about something very important in the world that they couldn't change. And so then, once the architect knew that he was able to enter into a conversation, okay, well, let's see if we can make this work. Like what if we could do this in a less amount of time? Would that make sense, and let's find a solution that allows you to do that, right. There's other things to play with. Maybe it cost you more, maybe, maybe, you know, maybe we reduce the scope, there's a lot of different things that happen. But that was only possible, because he actually stepped in the world. And like Ryan, so beautifully said, he understood, he understood. And so because of that, then he was able to create this, this enrollment. And what ended up happening is when he did that, the clients actually trusted him way more, because they felt understood. And so this is a great example of what we're talking about today, a flipping around and being perceived as a burden, to actually being perceived as a valuable adviser as a valuable consultant, as a valuable asset to the project. I

Rion Willard

28:36

think it's really interesting, actually, you know, that we're talking about value and the way that we don't communicate. So where we failed to communicate, is also where with is also kind of degrading our value. What do you mean, and so for some clients, some clients for this, let's look at high end, luxury clients, they come with us with a kind of expect a service expectation. They're looking for an experience as well. They're not It's not just, you know, the project, they're looking for something which is going to either sustain or maintain or uplevel their current state their status, okay? And they're also looking for an experience of being looked after being advised, or just being made to feel special. And I see this a lot with our, with our clients, and then people I interview who were very good with the kind of high level moving, ultra high net worth individuals, that they communicate a lot of value through just the way they care for the client, with little extra things like just being being clear or they create a kind of hospitality tie type of experience for the client, they remember things. They remember birthdays, or they, you know, the process is kind of nicely clearly laid out. There's just imbuing trust. I interviewed a practice recently. And they deal with a lot of high net worth individuals in the New Jersey region. And they had hired a consultant who specialized working with the Mandarin Oriental, the Ritz Carlton the four seasons, and this consultant was coming in and training all of their team members on how to create a luxury experience for these sorts of clients. And this just was little things like how to answer the phone, and to make the client feel at ease, or to make them feel like they're being catered for and looked after, not the kind of experience where the client rings up, and they don't get any message back, or they don't hear from the architect for three weeks, and they've got no idea what's going on in their project. And now they're worried. And now because they're worrying, they're starting to get frustrated, and why are we working with this architect? What is it that they're doing? And they're just all these these drawings that don't make any sense? So there's this kind of this lack this lack of communication, that starts to undervalue and devalue what it is that we're, that we're doing. And it kind of talks to, when when we're when we get skilled at being able to create a, let's say, a luxury experience with somebody, that's like another level of listening and understanding their world. Because you understand that that's a it's what they expect, and be It's part and parcel of why they've come to you. You know, they're, they're expecting something special, you know, one of our clients said to me, once, we're not, and this is somebody, you know, who's who's doing houses that, typically they start at $5 million in construction value. So that's a small project for them. And he was saying that we're not usually actually competing with other architects, we're competing with other luxury experiences that this client has access to, we're competing with the safari in Tanzania, or were competing with being able to go on a private jet and go and see the Super Bowl on the Sunday afternoon, or were competing with the whole family being taken to a five star, luxury Michelin star restaurant or whatever. It's those sorts of experiences that were that we're competing with. And understanding that that kind of psychology means that we can create a way of communicating that's valuable. And that way of communicating elevates our entire services without having to do any extra work. Yeah, absolutely.

Enoch Sears

32:56

I mean, how many of us know Well, here's the thing when I was just write him he Brian is something like when I was a kid, my I grew up on a teacher's my dad was a teacher. So we grew up on a teacher's salary. nine kids in our family. I mean, I know that's unheard of in England, that's even kind of unheard of in the United States. And like, I have eight siblings, it's like, well, it's a big family. And my father was a teacher, that's all my mom, she stayed at home, she was a very capable woman, she she actually, at a college graduate, she was certified teacher, she was a teacher herself, but she devoted her time to stay at home. But to make ends meet tight ends, ends were tight, growing up, like, ends were tight, and making ends meet. And so one thing that my mom did is she had a part time job where she would do this secret shopping, which is something that, you know, franchises will hire companies to send in these clandestine shoppers, so you don't know who they are, they're going to come they're going to buy some items, and they're going to test out your customer service, they're going to test you to see if any, any potential if people are stealing. So we basically we would do this thing where like when we went to one of the clients was ampm, which is a little mini mart that they they're very popular for Gasser in the US. And we would we had a very specific my mom would take me as a as a as a kid. It's probably child labor, probably illegal or something. But hey, you know, we did it. And, you know, she would she would go she would purchase the item. And then I would come purchase my item. And then I would add on something when they had the till opens when the register was opened, I'd be like, Oh, could I also get this candy right here. Because that's a perfect opportunity for employees to steal money because they cannot bring it up. They can take the money you give them just put in their pocket, there's no record of it having ever having transacted. So we do things like that just to test the internal processes and then we'd rate the cleanliness of the store, we'd go and check out the toilets, the demeanor of the employees, you know, were they were they smoking marijuana on the job or what was actually happening. And, and the owners found this very valuable. I think this would be a great experience speaking back to your idea of like people are in for experience for architecture firms. Like have you ever actually called up your own firm from the clients perspective to see what that experience is like, I know I have sometimes I call up. And let's face it, sometimes I know even price some of you who are listening to the many, many of you who are listening to podcast right now, let's face it, you're not good phone conversationalist, you would rather never speak to anyone on the phone and you absolutely hate it, like I did when I was in architecture firm. And so then the phone rings, no one's available to answer. And so you answer it. And so they have their introverted, you know, intern architect to answering the phone. And, and he's not good at all talking to people. And he'll just be like, hello, like, yeah, I was hoping to speak to so and so this is this is this is James, James James, James Semaj. And we have a problem over here on the job. And I was wondering if Blair's around yada yada yada, whatever is like, Okay, let me check it out. It's like, it's surprises me when I talk to when I call other service providers, not just architecture, I mean, other small businesses, sometimes you'll call and it's wonderful when some just just the very aspect of how you answer the phone can give someone an experience. So think about that in terms of your firm in terms of, you know, who do you have answering the phone? Have you train them, to what they say when they when they respond to someone, what's the experience that you're that you're that you're creating for them, because the fortunate thing about that is, in architecture, it's not too hard to stand head and shoulders above a lot of firms out there who never put any thought to these kinds of things. So if we want to stop being perceived as burdens, want to start being seen as valuable assets, Ryan makes a great point, which is, the experience can actually overshot even not just for high end luxury clients, but the experience can actually overshadow the whole actual even the delivery of the of the architectural process. Yeah,

Rion Willard

36:39

I think it's, it's an area where it's an easy win for so many practices. And to really tackle this idea of being seen as a as a burden, is creating this extraordinary experience for the for the client. And then in order to do that you need to understand where they're at, and what they're looking for, and some and also be intelligent enough emotionally intelligent enough to realize that there's certain things that they may never express to you, there are certain things that they will express and you can and actually what clients are willing to express and share with you is quite incredible, if you're willing to put in the work to learn this conversational skills to be able to get it from somebody. Exactly. And if one person shares it with you, then you can put it into your bank of experience and make an assertion that, well, if that one person feels that way, then there's a good likelihood that a lot of other clients feel the same way. And then it becomes easier for you to start to elicit these kinds of intimate things, for example, and this, this all creates, you know, a lot of a lot of value, because you're helping the client explore what their motivations are. For a for a project. And absolutely, yeah. And you know, and again, just kind of being clear with if you're working with developer, commercial, commercial clients, then how often do you get involved with what they're talking about in their business agendas? You know, how much do you know about what their businesses, I went sort of account level little story here, I went out for dinner the other night with my friend in New York, who's works in real estate. And he was, every time I go for dinner with him, he kind of tells me these stories that just blow my mind of what's happening in the, in the real estate industry. And he was explaining to me how developers buy and trade air rights on properties. So you can buy the air rights above a church, for example, and then put it onto your site. And you can buy the air rights of neighboring properties and put it onto your site's a bit you can go taller. And developers will often do little tricks or moves where a few blocks down the road or a few kind of buildings down the road. They'll buy little slices of land through another, another building to kind of join them up so they can get access to buying the air rights on on another project. And this can be quite a complex sort of set of maneuvers that, you know, the lot of people in the developers team have very thoughtful analysts and people kind of playing this kind of Tetris like game, if you like. And there's a lot of work that goes into kind of acquiring that. And then when they go to the architect, from the developers best perspective, they often think, well, we've done a lot of the hard work here.

Enoch Sears

39:43

And then we will create a lot of value we've carved out value where there was none before we we bought the air rights, whereas this was not able to fit this many units. Now it does massive impact on the bottom line.

Rion Willard

39:55

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I was asking how many how often Do you get architects coming up coming to you with some of these solutions or kind of, you know, these sorts of ideas. And he was like very rarely, if at all, but he can remember. Yeah. And he was like, and he was like, sometimes, from our perspective, when we're now dealing with architects, we feel like we've done a lot of the thinking already in the project, so fascinating. And now, if the architects job does not to mess up the envelope, well, in

Enoch Sears

40:24

that case, you can see why sometimes they perceive that, that the architects are just there to stamp plans or to to initiate a design that's already been conceived by someone else or to implement a solution that's already been conceived and developed. Yeah.

Rion Willard

40:41

Yeah, well, it's fascinating. So I think one of the kind of ways to, again, to create value, we're talking about our ability to educate a client, to communicate with them to conceive that our value creation is an ongoing enrollment conversation, ie, we've got to enroll another person into being able to see our value. And it's an ongoing process that will happen throughout the project. And most importantly, it's a process that can happen before a project even starts. And we often see the clients, the architects who are the best at being proactive, with starting this kind of conversation with their clients, ie they're being proactive with their marketing, they're being proactive with their prospecting, they're going out and finding people they're going out and researching the industries in the sectors that they're working in, they're listening intently, they're getting into conversations, they're picking up the phone, these guys have a massive advantage in being able to create value, because they've been doing all of this front end work of understanding the problem, understanding where the motivations are, and being able to identify who the key players are and, and starting conversations in that in that direction. And when you do that, you're able to go in a position yourself, you've just got, you've just got space to position yourself, and to position yourself as an advisor, absent as, as opposed to waiting for the developer to figure out all of the things that they think is valuable. Yeah. And then then they're like, literally, we just need to find the cheapest architect who can fill out the box that we've created. Exactly, yeah, yeah. And it's not that difficult, because we've done all the hard work.

Enoch Sears

42:31

And so there we are, right. Now, here's the thing. If you communicate value, you get paid more money, you make money, you become filthy rich. If you're able to convey value, it's not just about conveying the value of Architects like this actually translates into dollars in your bank account, into your firm's bank account, more profitable projects. And the impact of having more money in your firm means that you then have the funds to be able to hire high caliber team members. So we can see that if we boil this down to the core of the skill of so essential. Now, some of our listeners may be asking, Okay, enough, Ryan, that's great. How do I communicate the value? How do I, how do I do this? Like, what is a framework for doing that? Well, this is one of the things that we teach in smart practice method. Right? So how to create a framework for communicating because one thing to say, Oh, just communicate the value. It's another thing to have a framework that you can follow a framework is not a script, a framework is a it's kind of like the bones of a conversation, how you direct the conversation to communicate value. And this is one of the mainstays of smart practice methods. So if you're a small firm owner, you want to get better at communicating your value see the ability, the Delta, the upside of being able to communicate your value powerfully. Well, I invite you to go check out our 60 minute for motor masterclass we talked about here on the podcast. It's at Smart outright. As we pivot and end up this conversation today. I just want to ask you a little personal here. Recently you got into boxing, right you started taking boxing classes at a gym in New York. How is that going? So did Are you going to pick that up in the US? Tell us about that. What What prompted you I mean, you had this great story about walking into this boxing gym and like Harlem it was like I was like what? So?

Rion Willard

44:09

Yeah, well I I wanted to get into I've always liked martial arts. I've done lots of different martial arts and some more tired and Wing Chun. And I was looking for a gym. I went into the local gym that was held the machines there was they were pretty scummy. And then I saw that there was this boxing Jim up on 1/25 Like in the Mexican style of boxing. And I walked in and immediately I was like, Yes, this is the this is the place just people smacking the crap out of bags. It was intense training, good vibes, good music. Everyone just focused on one one thing and it was a very kind of technical place. But I got into I was I was going about four times a week down at the gym. and was thoroughly enjoying it even got to do a little bit of sparring before I left. Oh,

Enoch Sears

45:06

nice. Yeah, you did intrigued you did pique my interest you say the Mexican style of boxing what is that is that like we beat you to a bloody pulp what is Mexican? It's

Rion Willard

45:15

just it's so it was run by like a Mexican family. And it's kind of like a Mexican parent pedigree of different fighters. And if you look at different styles of fighting, so like, there's Soviet style, there's Cuban style, there's American style, there's English style, there, it's quite nuanced. I'm still trying to learn myself, what's the different thing they know the different kinds of postures and footwork and, and kind of the some of the different strategies for like how people, you know, use the ring, utilize the ring, the kind of fighting strategies, how you position yourself, you know, different ways of head movements, you might know like, you know, the Philly shell is that is the kind of famous American style boxing that Floyd Mayweather was very good at, for a defensive you keep your hand down, and you're bobbing, kind of bobbing and weaving like that. And the the, the, I couldn't really tell you exactly what the nuances are with the with the Mexican style, except for it's, it's good,

Enoch Sears

46:16

but you only you'll know you'll, you'll find out as you get older as

Rion Willard

46:20

my eyes is kind of slowly developing and understanding what's happening in the ring and how people are moving. You start to kind of recognize the nuance in it. It's very beautiful. I must say like, I think boxing is just the footwork that's involved. It's like a dance. In fact, everything has to do with the footwork, like all the power that comes out your punches is more to do with where your feet are placed than, like how much muscle you've got, and how heavy you're throwing something. But I was amazed actually, I just I did a bit of sparring with a young guy who's in the must have been in his early 20s. And I

Enoch Sears

46:56

quite quite brave Brian, when I was sick and yourself.

Rion Willard

47:00

And when I fear that people don't realize how old I am. Sometimes when I'm in new faces.

Enoch Sears

47:06

Okay, take it easy, man. Pull the punches. So how that sparring match go,

Rion Willard

47:11

I just what was a couple I did one one guy. I just literally I could not land anything on him a while. couldn't land the thing on him. Wow. And and we did it because he was quite he was at a skill level quite a bit more than me. And so he just all he was doing was defense was just offensive foot. Well, geez, well, well, and it was like trying to punch a paper bag. Like, you know, just in the winds. I moved towards him he just tornado. Yeah, he just floated out of the way. And I was like, Oh my God. And the other thing that I found amazing was just the stamina of some of these guys. You know, um, they're just getting totally gassed out in the space of five minutes. And they're just not even breaking a sweat. Yeah, yeah, but

Enoch Sears

47:57

So have any plans to keep the physical activity up over there in the UK?

Rion Willard

48:02

Yeah, well, there's a there's a little Boxing Club around the corner here. So I'm only here for a couple of weeks. So okay, I'm going to get down there and I've got my own I've got my own boxing gloves here as well so

Enoch Sears

48:12

yeah, because the universe I mean, let's face it they're in a boxing as well. You know, we

Rion Willard

48:15

got it we got Yeah, we've got the world champion. Heavyweight is British. We've got the best heavyweights in the world at the moment. Are all British? No. There's a good heritage certainly in the East End of London. Good heritage right.

Enoch Sears

48:30

Describe to me what's the difference? Like as a as an American, I would I would say I prefer to English people, which of course the people from England. There's multiple areas. But why do you why do you say Brit? What's the difference between a British person as is totally ignorant question. So that's a good question there with me British versus this is for our podcast listeners, not only architectural business information, you're gonna get some some cultural information. I'll probably already all know this.

Rion Willard

48:53

Well, no. Well, it's it's a very nuanced question. Right. So the British Isles includes the UK, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland. Yes, I think that's, that's correct. And typically when I say British as opposed to English, for me, personally, British means a much more diverse, meaning.

Enoch Sears

49:22

Diverse meaning it includes Scots and includes Irish it includes or, or just includes all of that. And more than that,

Rion Willard

49:29

and more than that, like includes like it includes such

Enoch Sears

49:32

as colonies. Well, yeah, it was colonies as well.

Rion Willard

49:36

Yeah. It includes like everybody who's like here in Britain right now. I see. I see. Whereas English is a bit kind of myopic in the UK. Anyway, like, let's say you you you have an English fat flag outside of your house. Generally, it's considered a little bit racist.

Enoch Sears

49:57

But what what is the flag is it is it no Got the incident not the British flag.

Rion Willard

50:03

So the see the you got the Union Jack? Which beautiful flag the blue, the blue one, the red one and the white one. And the Union Jack is actually the English flag, the Scottish flag and the Welsh are actually all combined together. Ah, the anchor English flag is just it's just a white flag with a red cross on it. St. George's, St. George's Cross. Okay. Okay, which St. George worn his shield, I believe as he was on

Enoch Sears

50:32

it. Yeah, I can see the kind of the militant undertones to something like that like harkening back to the Crusaders. It's the Yeah, it's the English Heritage. Yeah,

Rion Willard

50:42

it's kind of but it's interesting, because in the UK, we have the England football team. And that's one area where where people get very patriotic about being English. Yeah. But in most other sports, we compete as Great Britain. Fascinating.

Enoch Sears

51:01

So there you have it.

Rion Willard

51:02

There's the British Isles. There's the United Kingdom. There's Great Britain. There's England, Scotland, Wales.

Enoch Sears

51:11

We've all been Great Britain. How's Great Britain different than that? The United Kingdom? stumped you here. Right? It's good. Now.

Rion Willard

51:18

I've got I've got a little little Venn diagram that explains it. But it is. It's not it's a good question. Because it's not actually that straightforward. But I would say and, and, and for me, personally, I use the word British to describe myself because it kind of encompasses a lot of the other international experiences and places and heritage that I have. So for example, Yvonne is she's Kenyan. And my mother is Guyanese. And both of those countries were former colonies. And, you know, that for me is kind of under the umbrella of Great Britain. Makes sense? So, there you go. Well

Enoch Sears

52:04

done right. I'm impressed. I pulled that question out, just out of the blue, see if you could answer. So. We are now becoming multicultural here on the Business of Architecture podcast. So we've covered a lot today. Yeah. So get out there. And yeah, help convince the world that we're not burdens. How about that. Love architects are taking over the world in a positive way. Awesome.

Rion Willard

52:25

And that's a wrap. And one more thing. If you haven't already, please do head on over to iTunes or Spotify. And leave us a review. We'd love to read your name out here on the show. And we'd love to get your feedback. And we'd love to hear what it is that you'd like to see more of and what you love about the show already. This episode is sponsored by Smart practice, business of architectures flagship program to help you structure your firm for freedom, fulfillment, and financial profit. If you want access for our free training on how to do this, please visit smart practice method.com Or if you want to speak directly to one of our advisors about how we might be able to help you please follow the link in the information. The views expressed on this show by my guests do not represent those of the host and I make no representation, promise guarantee, pledge warranty, contract, bond or commitment, except to help you the unstoppable

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