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S12 E13 Alex Shevrin Venet: Otter Voice Meeting Notes

S12 E13 Alex Shevrin Venet

Tim Villegas49min

Tim Villegas

00:01

Hey, friends. I'm Tim Villegas with the Maryland Coalition for inclusive education, and you are listening to think inclusive, our podcast that features conversations with people doing the work of inclusion in the real world. This week on the pod, my guest is Alex Chevron Vanette, a passionate advocate for trauma, informed education driven by both hope and frustration with the current system. She teaches graduate level courses at Vermont State University and Antioch University New England, and offers professional development workshops. Alex writes for her blog, unconditional learning, as well as Edutopia and KQED mind shift. And she's also authored two books. Alex's mission is to help educators better support young people through accessible and impactful learning opportunities. In this episode, we'll talk about Alex's influential blog posts. What about the other kids in the room? We delve into the challenges and benefits of trauma informed education, the over reliance on behaviorist approaches to support learners with challenging behavior and the need for systemic change in educational practices. Alex discusses her books becoming an everyday change maker and equity centered trauma informed education, emphasizing practical steps teachers can take to foster change in their own school systems. Before we get into today's conversation, I want to tell you about our sponsor for season 12, IXL. IXL is an all in one platform for K 12 that helps improve achievement, empowers teachers and tracks progress. With IXL, teachers can accomplish what usually takes dozens of different tools as students practice IXL adapts learners needs, ensuring they're supported and challenged, plus every learner gets a personalized learning plan to effectively address knowledge gaps. If that sounds interesting to you, learn more at ixl.com/inclusive that's ixl.com/inclusive after a short break, my conversation with Alex Chevron Vanette, catch you on the other side.

Tim Villegas

02:37

Alex Chevron Vanette, welcome to the think inclusive podcast.

Unknown Speaker

02:42

Thanks so much for having me.

Tim Villegas

02:45

Alex, gosh, when did you write that blog post for the other kids in the classroom? Was that, like, two years ago,

Unknown Speaker

02:52

I would have to look, but that sounds right, okay,

Tim Villegas

02:55

because I just remember someone shared it. Well, a lot of people shared it. But, you know, as a as, like a, I mean, I guess I'm still a blogger, because I still blog, you know, for our organization, but as a blogger who had, like, their own independent website at the time, I completely understand, like, the amount of attention that you can get by writing something, you know, like, like, what you wrote. And so I wanted to start there, because that was really my introduction to you and your work. You know, there's this constant refrain in the special education, inclusive education world about, what about the other kids, with regard to, like, learners who are disruptive, quote, unquote, disruptive or dangerous, and how educators should think about the other kids or those who don't receive special education services. So you know, like, what was that experience like with not only writing the blog post, which I encourage everyone to read, but also managing the comments and all of the attention that it got

Speaker 1

04:04

great question. So that blog post came about like a lot of mind do, which is where I'll just, you know, I feel like my blog is where things that are bothering me, I'll go to write about them. And this was one of those questions that had just been kind of rattling around in my brain for a long time, because I hear this all the time, because I talk about trauma informed education, and people go, Well, there's this one kid with trauma that's having a hard time, but what about the trauma of all the other kids who have to be present for it? And I had just been ruminating on it for a while, and then one day, I just kind of clicked how I wanted to approach it, and so then I wrote that post up. And, you know, it's funny, it did get a lot of shares immediately and a lot of social attention, but, you know, to my memory, I think that the comments were generally okay, and if they weren't, I've locked it out. Point that's good. Just developed what. Whatever, like brain mechanism I needed to for that purpose. But really, you know, the point that I wanted people to take away from it, and the provocation that I wanted to give people was to really think about this dichotomy that they're creating between that kid and the other kids, and really break down that there's not really such a thing. First of all, we can make a lot of assumptions about who that kid is based on big external behaviors or whatever it might be. One of the points I really wanted to drive home was that every other kid is watching, not necessarily to see. Is that kid going to get consequences? Are you going to protect me from that kid? But they're also watching to say, if I'm going to have a day where I'm that kid, how are you going to treat me, if I need to melt down, if I need to scream, if I want to throw something, how am I going to be treated? And I think that that was really the aha moment for a lot of people about, oh, yeah, like, we're teaching a lot of things by how we respond to the kid with the big behaviors. And so, yeah, a lot of my stuff I read on my blog is really to try to start conversations. And I was really glad that one did, yeah,

Tim Villegas

06:16

and I think it certainly started a conversation. And, you know, I don't know how much you know about about my experience or journey, but I was a special education teacher. All the years I spent in the classroom were in a segregated setting, so I taught four years in a class for students on the autism spectrum, and then I when we moved to Georgia, I taught in a K through five for students with intellectual disability, and then so I so that's, that's kind of like where I was, and what really resonated with me, with your posts and just this idea, right? Of, you know, my kids, your kids, the other kids, you know, what about those kids and stuff like that? Is that, you know, it's something that I experienced in real time with what happens if your student has a quote, unquote meltdown or it, you know, there, there is some behavior that's dangerous in my classroom, right? Those are the questions, and those are the thoughts. And it's like, you know, well, we really like the the whole idea is that we design this environment so that everyone can learn. And it took some convincing that students that were in my, quote, unquote, my classroom even deserved or belonged in a general education classroom, right? Why? I mean, why are we? Why are we even at this place? Still? That is a question that we have to answer.

Speaker 1

08:08

Yeah, I wish I knew, but, you know, it's such a self fulfilling cycle, right? Because when you segregate students from each other, then they don't learn how to be in community. And then that does mean that, okay, I have a student who's used to being a specialized setting. Now they're in this mainstream setting, and their peers don't know how to support them. They don't know how to intervene when that student's having a hard time. They don't know how to interact and build a friendship with someone who communicates differently than they do. And so what happens is that we often use that is evidence that the kid who's receiving services shouldn't be in the setting, as opposed to, hey, maybe actually, we need to teach everybody about what it means to be in a community with folks who are different than them and communicate differently or respond to stress differently, so the more that we keep kids apart and don't actually give them the chance to practice those skills, the more that they don't have the skills. So then it becomes challenging.

Tim Villegas

09:07

I like how you said that it's a self fulfilling prophecy. Especially in early childhood education, you have learners who have disabilities where it's not even an option for them. They don't even have access to an inclusive placement. You know, it's like, oh, you have autism. Well, you have to go to this early childhood special class. And then that is used as evidence, like they're in a special class. So as they transition to kindergarten, they should be in a special class. Well, they didn't even have the opportunity to be anywhere else.

Speaker 1

09:40

And one of the things that I tried to highlight in that post, too is that when we give kids the chance to step up and support each other, they do right? If you've ever worked with a group of kids and you've had the conversation with them about, hey, sometimes our classmates have a hard time, what can you do when a friend is feeling sad? What can you do when. Someone's feeling upset, kids step up to it pretty much every single time. And so when we don't give them the chance to do that, it's almost like we're doing the same that every teacher says they don't want to do, which is having low expectations for their behavior, right? So you know, if I have really high expectations that you can step up to this, that's an act of care.

Tim Villegas

10:24

Yeah, the expectations, if you have high expectations, typically, children will rise to them. It's just a matter of actually having those expectations. So you are in Vermont, and I believe that Vermont has historically had a high lrea, a percentage, meaning if, for those who are listening that the federal data that schools report on for in public schools of how much time a learner with a disability or an IEP is in a general education environment. I don't know the number off the top of my head, but speaking just in Vermont, do you feel like practices in Vermont are ahead of the curve? As far as that goes? I know that that is just a number, but I'm curious as to your perspective.

Speaker 1

11:12

You know, my experience teaching here in Vermont was in a therapeutic school that was an outside setting, and so our students, we worked to transition back to their public schools, but we were teaching them in the outside setting. I do know that one reality here in Vermont is that we have very few options for different programs and types of settings outside of our schools. You know we have, basically our whole state is rural, and so we have very few specialized programs, we have very few outside placements. And so that statistic doesn't surprise me, because often in Vermont, part of the inclusion is there's not a lot of other choices. So, you know, folks, but you know, I don't want to speak out of turn about what the exact landscape looks like, because I just don't know at this point. But my experience in in a alternative school that was an outside placement was that schools were pretty good about helping students transition back in, although, of course, we always had tension similar to what we were just talking to about. You know, how well can we really integrate this student? But for the most part, people were really excited to get creative about what that looked like,

Tim Villegas

12:21

yeah, what was the What's that experience like? You know, because I, I feel like it's very similar. You know, even though I didn't teach in a, like, a therapeutic setting, or outside, you know, outside of the public school placement, like something like that, but working in, working in an educational system. I certainly had colleagues who worked in those kinds of settings who were very inclusively minded, like they wanted. They, they, they desired for their students to return back to public school and then, not only just in, like a segregated class, but also to be in integrated and included in general education. Like, what is that? What was that like for you? You know, that experience trying to prepare students to return back to their regular like neighborhood school.

Speaker 1

13:10

You know, it was a little bit of a double edged sword, because, on the one hand, generally, our students really wanted to go back to their public school. They wanted to be with their peers. They wanted to, you know, in their words, they wanted to go to the normal school like they, you know, there, and this was middle school and high school. So they're teenagers, right? They wanted that. And we wanted them to succeed in the things that they wanted, of course, and at the same time, you know, our school did so many things differently, not just because we were supporting a certain population, but also because we wanted to be aligned with like progressive education, values and things like that. So we didn't use grades, and we really thought a lot about power dynamics and boundaries and wellness practices for the staff and empowering kids and hands on learning and project based learning and all this really cool stuff. And so we really tried to make our school not just somewhere that these students had to be placed, but actually somewhere that was doing really kind of cutting edge educational practices. And so it was a little hard, because on the one hand, I wanted my students to go back and be successful in all of this, and on the other hand, I knew that that was also kind of a loss, like they're not going to get the same individualized attention. They're not going to get the same opportunities to have class on a farm or at an internship the way that they would at our school. And so, you know, that kind of dichotomy actually is part of what drove me to what I'm doing now, which is largely teacher development and, you know, school consulting and writing and all those types of things, because I would like our public schools to look a little more like these alternative schools. Okay, to use some of these. Practices, so that it's not this dichotomy of, like, go to school in a big box or go to the cool, funky school, but actually, you don't really have a choice about being here, because that's not a great choice,

Tim Villegas

15:10

right? Yeah, I like the AI, like the funky school, yeah. The reality too is that, as there are, you know, there are wonderful funky schools. A lot of times those out of school placements are not great, right? Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah. So I know it's a that's that's tough, but I know I appreciate the nuance there, and then also, just like the internal struggle, because I definitely, definitely felt that as a teacher who taught in a segregated class, but also tried to build community within that class and build it as a safe place for my learners and for the people who worked in that class. So I get it. I get it. I think that's, you know, I think people who listen to this podcast need to hear that conversation, that there are people in those settings right now that are having this struggle. So you are now in teacher development, and you've written a couple of the two books that come to mind. And the reason why I'm so glad you're on the podcast is the two books that I wanted to talk about are as becoming an everyday change maker in equity, centered, trauma, informed education. So I'd love for you to unpack that word for us that you know what it actually means to be a change maker. And I think this runs parallel with what we're kind of talking about, about educators who want to change the system they're in, but maybe don't know exactly how. Maybe they are in a separate placement, you know, and outside of public school placement, or maybe they're in a segregated environment in a public school. What's a change maker? And what are some steps that educators can take to become a change maker? Yeah,

Speaker 1

16:49

so this book becoming an everyday change maker. It came about because I had written the first one, equity centered, trauma, informed education. And that book is really about, you know, this vision of, you know, what could schools be if we centered equity and we were trauma informed, and, you know, had justice at the center, and I sort of laid out all these principles and big ideas, and when I was then, after it was published, talking with a lot of teachers who were reading it, I would keep getting this comment that was like, okay, Alex, this is great, but how do I Do it like I'm the only one at my school who's into these ideas, or I want to, you know, implement these ideas about boundaries that you talk about, but nobody at my school really cares about that conversation. My colleagues have this deficit mindset. How do I change it? And so the becoming an everyday change maker was my attempt to kind of answer that, and how I really got to that title was that, you know, everyday change maker. All of us really have a role to play. One of the things I really focus on in that book is that we all can't do everything, especially if we want to shift the education system. There are so many things that need to change. It's a little overwhelming. If you started to list out everything that would need to change, right? Federal law, state law, teaching practices, healthcare system, like you could really go on and on. And I think that a lot of folks kind of stay in that place of being really overwhelmed, because it is really overwhelming. And what I wanted to do is really help people focus on okay, if we can't do everything, what can you do? And how can you really feel empowered to do it? And so I really look at the idea that we all have a role to play that lines up with our unique strengths, our role in the system, and the things that we're interested in changing, and we can find ways to just take those small pieces and run with it and keep keep it pushing, right? So everyday change maker is basically keep it pushing, keep going. What's something small you can start with and then just gain some momentum. And so I really just want teachers to feel like they can do something, even if it's pretty small. Yeah,

Tim Villegas

19:00

do you have example, an example of maybe something small that, either as an example in the book, or something maybe you did or a colleague has done, to move things forward? Yeah? So

Speaker 1

19:13

I'll give you this one is, is pretty small, which I see will help teachers really think about, oh, yeah, that's something I could totally do. So I was working with a teacher who was taking a graduate class as we and we were talking in class about the idea of consent and relationships in schools connected to social media, right? I think a lot of us are aware that right now, there's this really harmful culture around you know, there's lots of teachers on Tiktok that get on there and film their students and post, you know, video of bad behavior, or even of, you know, just a regular class. But then kids pictures are out there that they didn't necessarily agree to, and you have a culture of people filming each other without consent in public. It's one of those things, right when you start to think about how. Problematic it is. It gets really big and complicated. You're like, how do I change that whole culture that's overwhelming. So I had this teacher in my class who was thinking about this, and she started to look at, okay, in my role as a classroom teacher, what could I actually do around this? She started really small, which was first she just looked at what were her school's policies about sharing photos and sharing video from the classroom, and they had kind of a thing where you weren't really supposed to publicly post it, but there was a school page, and she still felt like it was a little too much, but she kind of got the sense of what's the lay of the land. And then she just started talking to her students. They started having conversations about, what are the reasons why we might take pictures or video in class? What are times when you don't mind having a picture taken? What is the time that you do mind? What does it change about your learning when you know there's going to be a video versus when there's not? She just started talking about it more directly with her students, and then she used those conversations to pull up some guidelines for her colleagues, for the other teachers, about times where it might make sense or not make sense to be recording or taking pictures in your classroom. And then when does it make sense or not make sense to share those out publicly on the school's page or your page, or whatever it is. In the end, you know, you could look at it and say, Okay, that's kind of a small thing, but what this teacher was doing is saying, here's this big and complex thing that is impacting people, and then what's my role in just getting started with it? And by doing that, she's really laying the groundwork for this group of students about empowerment and consent and digital literacy and all of these really awesome things. And I just thought that was a great example of starting where you are.

Tim Villegas

21:45

Oh, I love that. I love that. And, gosh, when you brought up Tiktok, Tiktok can be such a toxic play groups especially, oh my gosh, there's this one, sir, there's this one. I'm definitely not going to link this. This is just like, because I just thought it doesn't need any more views. But I haven't had a chance to talk about it until just now, when you mention it. So I'm on Tiktok, you know, for the my job, and it was something like a Someone was giving, like, some sort of speech, and somebody like, it was an adult running and tackling the person, you know, giving the speech. I don't know exactly. I don't know if it was a classroom, or if it was, it was a news conference or something like that. And so it was pretty violent, this altercation. And then it cuts to the educator, and he's pretending to be a principal, and he says, Did you try having a relationship with him? You know? And it made me so it's made me so mad, Alex, it made me so bad. I wanted to throw the phone. It was like, No. And it had, like, it probably had, like, a million views or whatever, and I'm just like, Man, oh, what. What kind of message is this sending also, but also that so many people are attracted to that it's, it's just I was so disappointed. I was just so disappointed in that, yeah,

Speaker 1

23:18

and then there's also kind of outside of teacher Tiktok, there's also just so much harmful and ableist stuff on Tiktok, of people filming folks with disabilities, and the narrative that comes in the comments or in the videos themselves, and it's really infuriating. And so I think again, that connects back to this idea of being a change maker that, you know, I sit here and I'm just like getting angry about it, but to really, like, start to chip away at that problem, you know, you just have to start where you are. So for me, if I want to chip away at that problem, okay, who's in my sphere of influence, the teachers that come and take classes with me, we could start to tackle this. We could talk about what they can do. We can talk about their own use of social media for professional development, right? So that's one of the big takeaways from that book. Is what's your sphere of influence? And then how can you tackle this problem from exactly where you are right now? But there's something you can do no matter where you currently are. Yes,

Tim Villegas

24:20

I love that. So that is becoming an everyday change maker, and I encourage everyone to check that out and make sure that is in your library. Equity centered, trauma informed education. Help us unpack that term. What does that actually mean for schools to be trauma informed?

Speaker 1

24:37

Yeah, so I mentioned earlier that sometimes when I write on my blog, it's because something has been annoying me or bothering I start to write it. So that book actually came originally. There was a blog post on my blog that then at some point I got connected with an editor who says you should make this into a book. And I said, All right, so the original blog post. Was really thinking about this term, trauma informed has become a buzzword, and where do we go from here? Because I in that therapeutic school where I work, we were really doing all these trauma informed practices, and I started getting really interested in how other people were using that phrase and these practices. And I started, as I was learning more and visiting places and reading more with this term, trauma informed how other people were using it. And I started noticing that sometimes it was used in like this really deficit and labeling way. Oh, those trauma kids. You know, what can we do for these poor trauma kids? I also started noticing things like people talking about being trauma informed, but in their whole book on being trauma informed, there was no acknowledgement of things like race and national origin and gender and gender expression and all of these pieces that are social identities that you know when People are experiencing oppression, can cause trauma and can impact our experience in school. And so that started to bug me, like, Okay, if we're going to talk about trauma, don't we need to talk about all this stuff. Now, as I was researching and into this book, of course, a lot of people are talking about these dynamics. And so what I really wanted to do with this book was kind of weave together all these people who were really looking at this through this justice oriented perspective, and really putting equity at the center of trauma informed practices, instead of allowing it to become just another buzzword, just another label that's going to pass us by or continue to undermine our work. And so the book really looks at how we center our human centered, trauma informed practices in equity and justice, and then how do we apply that to our schools?

Tim Villegas

26:49

The that equity, that equity piece, is so challenging, because I know in some states, and I'll just talk about Georgia, because this is where I live, the word equity is really like, you're really, you're really not even supposed to use the word. You know, I've asked this question to a number of guests before, but how like when we're in such a, you know, in our country, depending on what state you're in, that these words can be politically charged and divisive. How can we move beyond that and really still be committed to equity when it's just so difficult to even say the word

Speaker 1

27:32

Yeah? So I actually wrote about this a little bit in the second book, and becoming an everyday change maker, and I spoke with Lorena Herman, who is an amazing educator, has a book textured teaching, and runs a great program called multicultural classroom, and she's in Florida, and so I wanted to talk to her about this dynamic, because, you know, it's big in Florida too, and you know, she had this great perspective that for classroom teachers, you know, she said, I Want you to I want you to protect your ability to teach and to be in the classroom, because we need teachers, not martyrs. And so she talked about being strategic and sort of really thinking about, how can I do this work, but maybe be mindful about where I'm announcing it, or how I am broadcasting it. How can I really, you know, keep pushing forward with these concepts, but maybe just be strategic about my language. So I really liked her perspective. Other folks have the perspective of, if I get fired, I get fired, and I think that it takes some reflection on your relative privilege and what's your cushion if that happens, and what's your network that's able to support you? And so, you know, kind of where I landed with this is everybody has to kind of make their own decision about what's right for them and their community and their resources. But again, where are you? What are you in the position to help with? And then how can you keep it moving, with creating some momentum? And so maybe somebody who's a brand new teacher in Georgia, who's not supposed to say the word equity is not going to, you know, be super loud and proud about disrupting stuff while they're still trying to get settled. But maybe someone who has a little more tenure, or who feels like they're in a good position can use that position. So I think it just really comes down to, yeah, how are you doing that in where you're at and in community, right? Because people are alone in this, and that's another thing I would direct people to lorena's network called the multicultural classroom. She has an online network for teachers who are doing this kind of work, and it's really valuable resource.

Tim Villegas

29:44

You know, Alex, I'm feeling a very validated because I had, I've certainly gotten feedback from some individuals, especially when I first started blogging. Know that Well, Tim, you should have done more about being outspoken in your district. And why did you even stay in that classroom, you know, for so many years or whatever. And so my perspective was like, Well, I have a family. Thank you. I was new, definitely new ish to Georgia and the certainly the district and the politics that inhabit Georgia, and I did what I could with what I had right. And I've been very fortunate to be able to leave my position in public schools and be a communicator full time, and but I don't think that I would have gotten to this place now, where I am now, if I would have been, sometimes maybe full throated in my the way that I wanted things to change back then, and so in reflection, in the way that you're talking, it's just again. I just want to thank you, because I feel very much validated that this was the right course of action. I don't know, like I didn't mean for this to be a therapy session, but thank you.

Speaker 1

31:12

Well, you know, and I think what you're speaking to is that it takes a whole network of people, right? Because in your position, you're creating communication and resources for people that maybe a teacher who's in your old classroom who's not in a position to lose their job by pushing back against the principal, maybe they're forwarding one of your podcast episodes to their CO teachers and quietly saying, hey, what if we shift what we're doing just a little bit I think we can do this while still technically following the letter of the expectations that we're being asked to do at the same time. Maybe there's a school board member or a state legislator that's picking up your podcast and saying, Hey, I'm going to take this with me into the next lawmaking session. I'm going to take this with me into our policy making and free seeking about how can I actually advocate for some bigger changes, the teachers who aren't yet ready to be speaking out need people at all these other parts of the system. Yeah, that's

Tim Villegas

32:11

a great point. I'd like to bring up something that can be a little controversial. Are you ready? I'm

Unknown Speaker

32:20

sure I already know what it is.

Tim Villegas

32:21

Yes, I know so as you know, our educational system is steeped in behaviorist language and practices that my first job in the field, right out of college was a behavior therapist, where I was taught ABA principles. I was taught discrete trial and I was working with young children on the autism spectrum from the very beginning of my career, that was my lens, right? And as I grew as an educator and started going maybe behaviorism isn't exactly what it's all cracked up to be I've still seen that this way of thinking about rewards, token economies, incentives, even this idea of positive behavior support. It really it is a stronghold within the educational practice. The reason I'm bringing it up is because over the last, I would say, maybe 10 years since I've been doing the podcast and blogging, you've had a lot of disabled activists and advocates come out and say, You know what, this was not great for me. This was causing me trauma. This was causing me harm. Many of us in the field are going, maybe we should listen to them and figure out a better way. When we're talking about trauma, informed education, we're talking about rethinking how we are supporting learners, especially when, like even in the law, it talks about positive behavior support. How can we move forward with supporting learners, and let's just start there, I guess. Yeah.

Speaker 1

34:06

So where shall I start with TBI? Yeah. I mean, there's so much to say about behaviorism. I think one of the big things is that behaviorism is everywhere in schools, because it's everywhere in society. And it's one of these things where if you don't know where to look for it, you're not going to see it. And then once you see it, you see it everywhere. There's a book called punished by rewards, by Alfie Kohn that's sort of the Bible for undoing behaviorism. And he really, in maybe a little too much detail it sometimes goes through the research about everywhere that behaviorism is, in the workplace, society and schools. And he really unpacks why behaviorism actually doesn't work and why it harms people. I was actually just looking at it today because I'm doing a presentation about this next weekend. Um, so you know one of. The things that he says is that behaviorism points rewards for gaining temporary compliance, but it doesn't help kids actually learn to be better people or make better choices. It just helps them learn how to get the rewards, which in the classroom you might look at and say, Oh, well, my students are behaving better because I have this point system, but is that going to translate to their development as people? And what the research says is no. And so I think starting there is important, is just learning to recognize where behaviorism is. And then the problem, then, for many educators, is that they see this. They start to understand why it doesn't work, they start to see things like, yeah, it's kind of coercive, and it sort of feels gross to be doing this, and doesn't really honor the autonomy of my students. However, I'm working in a school where I have to use PBIS. That's the reality for many, many, many teachers. And so what I say about that is that, you know, we have to find how we can teach with integrity in systems that are asking us to operate in ways counter to our core values. And so for some people, that's going to look like pushing back actively against PBIS in their school and bringing it to leadership and advocating to stop using it. Or, you know, some schools use a version of PBIS that doesn't include a big rewards point value token economy system. For some people, it's going to look like I don't have the positional power to actually do that. And so how can I personally use this in a way that's less harmful? So I know a lot of teachers who have made the decision in their classroom that they're required by their principal to give everybody Tiger bucks or points or whatever, and so they just give everybody the same amount every single day. And that's kind of their act of resistance is I have to do it, but I'm just gonna actually do it in a way that kind of negates the whole thing. And then some people have to do it even more detailed than that. And again, it's just about, how can I do this in a way that is most closely aligned with my values as an educator? And it leaves teachers in a hard position. So it's sort of the same thing we've been talking about that we need people at all different levels to be talking about this, because it's going to take some really big systemic changes, because the Federal Government encourages people to use PBIS, and so it's going to have to be a pretty big top down change for it to really go away, right?

Tim Villegas

37:38

And, you know, idea hasn't been reauthorized in, I don't know, 15 years or 20? No, I forget now, since 2004 maybe. So I guess it's been 20 years, probably at this point, and I don't know if that's going to happen anytime soon. So we really just have to figure out how to make do with what we have at this point.

Speaker 1

38:01

Yeah. Yeah. So one of the resources that I would encourage people to check out, just to get started with this, is on my blog, I have a post that maybe you can link in your show notes about. I called it problematizing PBIS, and it's a resource Roundup, and it has probably like 10 or 15 links of couple podcasts, some books, some articles all about just problematizing. And I've had a lot of teachers really appreciate that as a way to find a link, to send you a colleague to go to the committee and say, Hey, let's start to talk about these things, because it's a little hard to find all that information. So I'm always updating that when I find other good pieces that go into it.

Tim Villegas

38:41

Thank you for all of that. I really think it's, I think there's a lot of people that understand that, you know, behaviorism isn't, I mean, it certainly is a way to look at behavior, but it's, you know, there are other ways to look at behavior, and other ways to inform, like, what is going on. And so I encourage if you're like, if you've ever thought like, maybe, is this the best thing you know, maybe look at some of the resources on Alex's website, or, you know, other, there's plenty of resources. Actually. Alfie Cohen was a guest on the podcast a few years ago. That was a fascinating conversation. He's a really interesting person. Definitely check that out. So let's talk about what the resources that you have, because you talked about a couple things. We talked about your original blog post, the other kids in the classroom. We talked about the resource Roundup, about problematizing PBIS, and we talked about your books becoming an everyday change maker and equity centered, trauma informed education. Is there anything else that is available that you'd like for people to check out.

Speaker 1

39:43

Those are the big things you know on my website, which is unconditional learning.org. That's where you can find the blog. And I have a pretty good archive there that goes back, and you can find a bunch of different stuff of what was annoying me or inspiring me on a particular day. I also have an Instagram, which is. At unconditional learning. And I have different little pieces on there that little bite sized pieces about trauma, informed education that could be helpful. And, yeah, just follow and stay tuned about what else I come up with.

Tim Villegas

40:13

Are you writing something else?

Speaker 1

40:15

I am working on, a boundaries workbook for teachers. This is something I talk about in a lot of my work, is the idea of healthy boundaries and what those look like, especially in trauma. Informed education. For a long time, I've really wanted to write sort of an interactive guide that teachers can go through. So I've been saying out loud a lot lately that I'm working on this, because that will make me work on it. I'm hoping by the end of this school year, but we'll see.

Tim Villegas

40:40

Okay, well, best of luck to that. Anything else that you wanted to make sure educators walk away from this conversation with,

Speaker 1

40:50

I think just there's something I say a lot at the end of trainings that I give and talks that I give to teachers, which is, we can't do it all and we can get started this both and that we cannot take on every single thing, and even if we tried, we would probably not be pretty effective. And there is something every one of us can do to start changing this system, that is we know is currently harming our students. And so find where you want to get started and roll with it. So I always hope that teachers, after we've talked and done learning together, are always thinking about, where's that place I'm gonna I'm gonna dig in. Fantastic.

Tim Villegas

41:29

Thank you. And if you're listening to this, and hopefully you are feeling inspired to actually do something small, right? Do something small to move. Includes inclusion, inclusive practices, forward and including trauma, informed education. All right, Alex, are you ready for the mystery question,

Unknown Speaker

41:47

born ready?

Tim Villegas

41:49

Born ready. Yeah, if you're already ready, you don't have to get ready, right? Exactly. So, what three things would you leave in a time capsule for people to open in 50 years?

Unknown Speaker

42:02

Oh, my goodness, yeah, it's

Tim Villegas

42:04

one of those capsule for people to open in 50 years. So you want me to go first, or, you know what I could do one, then you could do one? Oh, yeah, let's

Unknown Speaker

42:11

do that. Okay, let's

Tim Villegas

42:12

do that 50 years. So trying to think of something that's like, really, 2024 i Oh, you know. Okay, I know the pop figures. My my oldest daughter went to college, and so I've, I've commandeered her room. She as my podcast studio. Sorry, Jaden, on the bookshelf, there's a ton of pop figures, and all of my kids collect them. It's been a while since we've really collected but I think I'd put a Pop figure. And I wonder who I'd put. Actually, I have an Edgar Allan Poe Pop figure that's in my other office that I really like. I think that's the only one I have. So I'd put the Pop figure in. What about you that?

Speaker 1

42:56

I mean, the first thing that came to mind, just about like, culture in 2024 was something Taylor Swift related. I'm like a little bit of a Swifty, and I feel like, whether or not you're a Swifty yourself, she's just like the zeitgeist right now. I was like a DVD of her eras tour, but like, what are you gonna watch it on in 50 years? But I'll put something in Taylor Swift, really, some friendship bracelets.

Tim Villegas

43:20

Very good. Well, let's think about 50 years, because so 2024 that's 1974 right? So we didn't have the internet, but we didn't have any cell phone or anything like that. Yeah, we didn't have any, like, CDs. Well, barely, I think barely, I think that was like the 80s, right? If you had put my it's, I guess this is like, too easy to put your phone in there. Interesting. I

Speaker 1

43:42

was just thinking about what books I would put that maybe would capture what scenes are like. You know, I was thinking related to inclusive education. There's the book Disability Visibility that's edited by Alice Wong. I was just thinking that that would be a really great snapshot book of it's a couple years old at this point, but I think it's a great snapshot of disability life in the 2020s Yeah, and so I might put that one in

Tim Villegas

44:08

there. Emily ladau book demystifying disability, I think is another good one. Yeah, excellent. All right, I think that's good.

Unknown Speaker

44:16

We've got enough stuff. We've

Tim Villegas

44:17

got enough stuff. Yeah, the time capsule is getting full. We're gonna close it up. All right, excellent. Alex Chevron. Vanette, thank you so much for being on the think inclusive podcast. We really appreciate it. Thanks

Unknown Speaker

44:29

so much. It was a great conversation. You

Unknown Speaker

44:39

Music.

Tim Villegas

44:49

Welcome back. It's the time of the episode called three for me and two for you. I give three reflections about my conversation with the guest and two calls to action. Here we go. You. One there is this one part in the conversation my mind keeps going back to. It's when Alex talks about the other kids and how they are paying attention to how learners with big behaviors are treated. And this rings true for me on a lot of different levels. I don't think this is just true in the school setting, but it's really true for any setting. Everyone is paying attention to how other people treat each other and who is safe. It's just a reminder that how you treat people matters. And a lot of times, I think this comes down to mindset number two, Alex's point about some of those alternative schools doing a better job of supporting learners with challenging behaviors versus traditional schools. And notice I didn't say inclusive schools, because I think that if you are an inclusive school, your approach to behavior support is going to be different, and most likely will support a learner better. We need to ask ourselves if how we're doing school is working, and I think that for kids with challenging behavior, it really hasn't, and so why is that, and how are we going to chart a new path? Number three, I don't know about you, but sometimes I get tired of saying the same things over and over again, especially with regards to behavior. Support, I just want to encourage you to keep going. Don't give up. The stakes are too high for us to quit. So do what you need to do to keep yourself healthy, to advocate for inclusive practices. Just one more day. And as my doctor likes to say, the fight goes on. All right, here are my two calls to action. Actually, it's just a one call to action. Donate to MCIE as we close out 2024 you've probably received lots of requests to support your favorite nonprofits. In order to do the work we do at MCIE, we rely on different funding sources, primarily three. One is grant funding, which is provided by the Maryland State Department of Education to work with particular schools and districts in Maryland. The other is fee for service projects. And all that means is that schools and districts in Maryland and other states like Illinois and Virginia will pay us directly for services, usually professional learning or our school transformation work, and while we do have other sources of income, that last primary source is fundraising. Historically, we haven't been consistent about asking for donations, but as we close out this year, we need your support More than ever to continue this vital work. Your gift today will help us expand services and resources to support educators in creating inclusive learning environments where every child has the opportunity to thrive. With your donation, we can provide critical professional learning for educators to create inclusive classrooms develop new tools and resources that foster a culture of belonging in every learner. Help schools transform their educational services to include all learners and create environments that support lasting friendships and peer connections, that build community. Every dollar brings us closer to a truly inclusive education for all so please, please donate today using the link in our show notes or on our website@mcie.org and help us create a brighter future for all learners. That's it for this episode of Think inclusive. Time for the credits. Think inclusive is written, edited, designed, mixed and mastered by me Tim Villegas, and is a production of the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education. Thanks to our sponsor for this season, IXL. Make sure to check out IXL using the link, ixl.com/inclusive Original Music by miles. Credits, additional music from melody. Thanks for your time and attention and remember, inclusion always works. From MCIE.

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