This computer. Hi, everyone. Welcome to a second consecutive episode of the all the things he podcast.
All the things all the time every week. We're on fleek.
Ah, that was amazing. Good night. Good dropping, dropping those drop those bars,
drop those bars with my references from 2013
cool like that, like that an
older reference. Oh, Jesus. Great. It's already back in time episode Lee
it is about in Time episode. So I was telling me before we started recording is that I hockey season hasn't started yet. And so all my hockey podcasts haven't really been doing much, obviously, because there's nothing to talk about. But also all of like my sewing and other podcasts that I listen to are still on summer hiatus or summer break. So I haven't really had anything to listen to, in all of the driving of the children of the back and forth. And so or, or what
the Germans should create for us because they're good at this. They should create a noun for the special kind of frustration that comes from having no podcasts you want to listen to? Yes. Right. Like there's gotta be a German compound word for that. Let's ask like we can ask maybe Rebecca Schumann. Yeah, let's say Rebecca, what that word would be. Yeah. Well, happy birthday. Rebecca, make us up a word that is yes. And you feel when you have no podcast to listen to?
Yeah. So I decided, which is something that I don't do is that I decided to go back and re listen to some of our old podcasts. Love it. Also, because I noticed the I needed a friend. And so I was like, well, I'll listen to me. Talk to me. Because I can't call her. Call me.
You could you could maybe just take oh my god, we could take all our episodes, we could chuck them into one of those like aI voice things and then we could just talk to each other all the time. Yeah, in a creepy sort of dystopian movie, copyright infringing way.
Except, except as I found out because I went to I went to a conference this summer. Reclaim hosting anyways, doesn't matter. But they did a an experiment with Alan Levine, who does a lot of stuff with WordPress and plugins. And he's also all over Instagram. And what he's created these things called slots, which are these these kinds of very simplified does one thing, Wordpress templates, right. And there are he's written a ton of blog posts about slots. He's also spoken at conferences and done webinars about slots, and pot and podcasts. So what someone did is they fed the AI his blog posts about slots and said, right, tell me what slots are and then got a script and then he fed this script into another AI that had been fed Alan Wiens voice and Allah knows all this is happening right like he's this is this is conceptual and all of that. So we the feeds it all it is Alan Levine's voice, and then he gets video of him and creates this deal. Yeah, he created a deep fake of Alan Levine talking about slots for the Reclaim hosting conference. So there was there's an uncanny valley Enos to it like his mouth wasn't quite right. And you could tell feels like a
start of Stepford Wives leads Yeah, yeah.
But I felt really good because the person doing the presentation was talking about the limitations of it and it has to be video it has to be audio that's fairly stays fairly at the same tone and volume. Haha. And it's got to be video where you don't move around very much.
Oh, oh my god. This is like remember, my main science fiction idea I put out in the world is like there needs to be a dystopian movie about video facial recognition where the population is controlled like that. And it's only black people who can save us because they are consistently mis recognized by motion capture and AI systems right big aha white people. You did this to yourself. But then maybe the next thing will be ADHD people save us all because we are not reproducible by AI is because we are so chaotic processors as yet uninvented to manage the patterns of our own movements.
Yeah, it's like why are they so unpredictable? Goddamnit we're like,
we're D King, if you will. Yes. All the time. See, there's a hockey metaphor. This is good. Now a hockey podcast. This is the hockey podcast you wanted? Yeah. Yes. And to right now. I tried in the spelling bee on New York Times and it didn't work, by
the way. Yeah, but you can take and basketball to catch you.
Well, it's a hockey word and New York Times Spelling Bee did not accept it. Oh,
all right. Okay, so So anyways, so I went back and I actually so the first episode that I listened to was the which one was it? Sorry?
Oh my god, you forgot. That's amazing. Yeah,
I know I'm not lumpy pumpkins what it was it we not the divergent that you want I think it was a metaphor of neuro divergence where we got into the whole thing about jazz hands. Oh yeah. Oh, but also how we, you were talking about and again, my episode descriptions are terrible. I noticed that one of the past episodes is that they're like, I'm like that is. I mean, yes, we talked about jazz hands. But there were metaphors, but not really. We talked about how, when it's people are gifted, in some ways, it often ends up being that you are not gifted. When you are when what is you said, touched by the smarts
touched by the smarts? Oh, yeah. When you're touched by the smarts, like emotional immaturity goes along with that, yes, your brain outpaces your emotional regulation system or your Executive Function System. Or when your brain wants your body to do things your body isn't strong enough to do yet or coordinated enough to do yet. Yeah.
Or you also end up with like autoimmune stuff. And you know, those kinds of things. And so it was really important in that moment, and it was like happenstance, but I again forgot about the episode and sat there listening to it. And like I remember the jazz hands part, but not the actual part about ADHD that I should have taken with me.
Very ADHD of you. Yes.
But that that important part of not expecting people who are neurodivergent to you know, the, the analogy was, is that if you read it a grade eight level, when you're when you're eight, everybody expects you to have the emotional maturity of somebody who is in eighth grade, not an eight year old, let alone maybe a six year old that you are like asynchronous development is what asynchronous development. And that actually really was important for me to hear in that moment. Because it was a moment where, you know, we're getting back into school, we're trying to, you know, get back into routines, and there are some reactions that I clock as irrational. Oh, sure. But then I had to remember that this is normal. And that this is needs to be sort of acknowledged, and it actually gave me the language to be able to address it with the youngest. And just to hear, you know, let let us not despair. Yep. Let us look at this and say, here are the strengths, right? That you can teach yourself magic and become basically an expert in eight months. Right, which is not a small feat. That is a complicated game. But then if there are these other things that are sort of lagging behind, right, that's normal. Yep. Right. And so to be able to have kind of have that conversation and have that language was really, really useful. Really, really helpful. And I was like, I was like, Oh, my gosh, I need to listen to more of these. And so, so I did certainly listening. I didn't go all the way back. I just went to like, last season, right? Um, but but I do have the other observation I have is that I know I don't do music. And I was like, What's the big deal? It is really just me pop up and be like, Hey.
I like it. Because sometimes you can hear the little cricket crackle of you actually pressing the record button. Yeah. Right. It feels very authentic and live to me. Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's very on brand for us to have to go back. And remember, we did an episode where we began one episode. I was like, well, thank God, I just listened to our episode on the way to piano because I forgot I made a promise at the end of the last episode of something I was going to do in this episode, right? Because I said it and then it was gone. Right. And we record it and then it is gone. And I think sometimes, probably we've learned more from our own podcasts than we're able to cite. Oh, this was an episode what's a wetsuit? Right? We learned this thing and like there was some jazz hands in it, I think. But somewhere deep inside the point got made and you learned it right, even if you don't quite remember when and I know we've been getting emails recently, this podcast has been around long enough now that when new listeners find us they're like, oh, there's already 80 episodes. Right? They go, they go by
this is 85 This is the 85th episode. I love all
the things they need to count them when we actually had a number that like had a five or a zero in it instead of like, this is our 87 episode I've been fighting to This is our 73rd episode for like whatever it is
you want to hear the most like. So I, of course use WordPress as the host for this and every new episode is a new post. And I used to go through, and I would count, I'm like, how many are on the page? How many pages do I have completely forgetting that I could just go into the dashboard. And it tells me how many posts and posts there are. And I know that the first post doesn't have anything on it because it was just like coming soon. So like, take that number and minus one. And that's how many episodes you have. I was last week years old, right? When I finally figured that out five years into this podcast, four years on cast, that is
so funny. You're killing me with this leave, because it's something I'm sure that at some place, you knew, right? And then forgot, but you could do the other way really fast. Anyways, and you're just used to things feeling weird and inefficient? Because yeah, usually feel weird and inefficient. You're like, maybe there's a better way I probably won't.
And also, to be fair, WordPress can also be weird in this Yeah. Yeah. It's like there are there are a lot of things where people like, why isn't WordPress do word count for your posts? And
require a plugin for that? Yeah, it's a lot of work. But like, listen, so my husband has this saying from when he was a kid, because like, he burned himself on the stove, and then he burned himself on the stove a second time. And I'm like, Yeah, most kids, like, just do it once. And he's like, listen, Amy, I have to learn it the hard way. And then I have to learn it again. And that strikes me as a very neurodivergent way of learning. So it seems apt that we would record all these podcasts and then have to listen to them to remember what we said and then be surprised by the things that we we did. And sometimes I listen to them, because I'm always interested in quality control. And I again, remember I told you that one time, I want to make sure I'm not talking too much. Talking too much. And I'm always surprised, right? And as new listeners discover us, it's worth plumbing, the archives probably there's stuff in there that we don't even remember doing. And I'm always delighted when you know, a listener will write to us and say I was just listening to the episode on this. And I was like, oh shit, I forgot about that. Yeah, be what it was in that episode. I don't even know. And I will just drop a little easter egg and say anybody who really likes jazz hands wants to find Broadway Barbara on Instagram. You just absolutely do. Just okay. Broadway, Barbara on Instagram. You You're gonna laugh? Until you cry. It's gonna be great. Well, I
think I've seen her yeah. Just suggested to me because yeah, it's a dance. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. So. So looking back and learning things again. So something that stood out for you was this business about asynchronous development, right? Yeah, that when you're really really skilled in one area ahead of the grade level, as they say, in the school system, that does not mean that all parts of you have developed simultaneously, you're not well rounded, you're at the gym, just working on your biceps all the time, right, you can't do it. And that's fine. Because if, if that's where your initial talent lies, then you get ahead of yourself there. And that's fair. So it would be great. Even as adults, if we could remember, it's just like I talked about autism, less as a spectrum now and more as like a color wheel like you would get in Photoshop, when you have the color picker on the on the wheel, right? It's that like, you could be very, very good at this thing and immediately go to this thing, and then absolutely terrible at this other thing. And it doesn't make you more or less high or low functioning, it just means that in as many domains as you can measure, you will have domains that are outliers, right? So excellence in one area is a very, it's like the Canadian view of the weather, right? If we're getting a really warm day in January, then you know there's gonna be a blizzard. Right? If people just are like, well, if one good thing happens, and one bad thing is gonna happen. It's not. It's that's just as untrue as the idea that if you're really smart, then you're also going to be really emotionally mature. Just as easily right? And neither case is true. We are multivariate. And all of our variables seem to operate according to different logics that we're not entirely in control of, and it's difficult to understand that in children, right. But I think maybe for adults, who find themselves suddenly on one spectrum or another have ADHD or autism or other forms of neuro divergence may find themselves befuddled by their own great success in some areas and their their weaknesses in other areas. Right. I think I showed you why No, I showed the intranet that picture my sister's dog I drew the summer you saw that one? photo realistic pencil drawing? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So I just started drawing last year, as you know, when I just got a teacher in March, and I did this photo realistic drawing. One of my students thought it was the photo shoot, like that's the reference photo. I'm like, No, that's the drawing. And so it took me not very long at all, to be able to produce Let's be honest, an incredibly highly skilled graphite drawing of a doc. And, and I just got my fourth reminder notice about this piece of software I have to go into at work and click one button so that my grant doesn't get returned to the funder. But I can't figure out which submenu to use, right? So I have picked up an entirely new domain of artistic expression in less than a year. Right to an incredibly high level of accomplishment. Like my kid who's the artist was like, Mom, you could charge people you could be a pet portraits to do commissions. I'm like, Yeah, she
is She also a little angry at you? Yeah,
they're a bit angry and the other dog, right, my so I did the one dog, and I got afraid for my sister. And it's going up on a wall where the dogs go outside and in the entry. And so my sister is like, Oh, we could do the other dog too. And my kid put up their hand, I was like, I will do it. Now it's a competition. I'm like, I'm not eating with you, kiddo. And they're like, No, but I will be better. Yeah. So now they're doing it in art class, too. So our art finisher that we share in common is now? Yeah,
no, I did. The way my oldest puts it is that I'm coming for her brand.
Right? Yes, that's right. Yes.
I'm coming. And, and I think that like in like it just as a side quest. I think that that is something that people who are neurodivergent do, because there are we feel that there are so few things that we are good at. Right? Especially in the teenage years, right? Like there's there's all identity like and, and there is this over investment in? I'm an artist, right? Because everything else is shit. Yeah, everything else is shit. Everything else is like, and I can even see that. I can remember getting irrationally angry at my younger brother, when he surpassed me and swimming. Oh God, even though I knew it was going to happen, right? Like if he was going to eventually grow. And he was going to eventually be faster than I was. And I can I can very clearly remember. One night he was just super snarky about it. Right. And I and I'm sure there was a whole shit ton of other stuff going on, because it was high school and all of that nonsense, but I literally leapt across two lanes and attacked him.
Oh, god. Yeah, that sounds very hustling.
Yeah. But it was just like, and it was an you know, 99% of the time I was, you know, happy about it and proud of him. And like, this was this was our family, like the outside of our house and everything. But like, it bothered me. I was like, God, he's better than me. And he's gonna be better than me and I eat that's my
thing. But that's it. Yeah, cuz
that's my thing. This is the one thing that I'm good at, like, I'm not good at anything else. But I'm really good at swimming. Right. And it's not fair.
Yeah, so that's the flip side, I think this asynchronous development is that our kids and ourselves, we are aware of our substantial deficits in some areas that we feel ashamed about. Because if we are so smart, then we should be this other thing as well. And so what we do then is like, give up on the one thing that we're not good at, and like just triple down on the thing that we're good at. And if anybody challenges there, then we have nothing. I am happy to have grown a little bit more into an adult now who really loves to be the least skilled person. Yeah, in the room, because it means a I don't become enraged that everyone around me doesn't know their hours from their elbow, which is ungenerous of me, and it's something I have to work on. And, but I also feel like oh, great. I don't have to be in charge. And oh, great. I can learn something. Yeah, you're right. And I would say that is something I've only come to and well into adulthood. It took me a while
to get there. And I can fuck up. And I don't think it's the end of the world. That's right. Yeah. Right. Like, you know, it might be frustrating, like when I sew on sleeve on the wrong sleeve, or, you know, I, I sew the wrong pants, like so the same pant leg to the same pant leg roll.
I see a front to a front rather than that. Yeah,
yeah, I did. And I searched it. So I just sit there. Well, come on. Yeah. No, I was like, I like talking on then. Just like they play I don't mind on stitching. It's almost like, you know, like, you just want
to take out your fingers. It Well, that's
exactly like there's something but it gives me something to do while I'm watching television. Right in the evening. So it's just you sit there and you just like you don't have to make sure you don't rip the fabric but even that is right around the seams. So you can kind of fudge it a little bit. But yeah, like it was basically three hours of me unpicking these and I could be like, in the moment, I was just like, fuck, but it's alright. Whatever.
Would it surprise you Lee to know that my experience is completely different. Right.
That's just the subtitle of the I don't know how many times I don't realistic. I
Yeah, it's like, well, we my experience is completely different. Or well, we I read a book about that,
actually. But no, it's actually well, the I read 12 books.
I read 12 books about this. Did you know? Yeah, so I was thinking of you when I bought the fabric for the shirt that I made, because I washed it. Yeah, that that I are knit, which I don't do. I know. And then I cut it. And then I, every time I did a seam that ironed the seam open and then finished the seam. So as I was, I know, you're rolling your eyes at me, ever. And I like stare at something for 20 minutes before I like commit to actually running a scene because I don't like the little tiny holes that are left once you do this to tripping. Yeah. Yeah, so we each have a string. And that's fine. And when you know, when neurodivergent person you know, one neurodivergent person, which I think is another lesson that you get from re listening to our episodes is that my experience is completely different from yours, except when it Yeah, exactly the same, it doesn't mean that one of us is more neurodivergent than the other or better. neurodivergent. That's right or better neurodivergent or that one of us is higher or lower functioning than the other. It is a gift that we are able to see the specificities of our own instantiations or embodiments of the disorder, right? Yeah, without sort of questioning like, well, I don't really think that you're ADHD because somebody with ADHD, like would never read this is a different kind of, kind of gatekeeping. Right? You know, the way the way sometimes you see in in political movements is kind of like purity culture, right? Like, do you have all exactly the right beliefs? Right? Is your gender presentation exactly the right kind of gender presentation? Like are your politics exactly aligned with like, the whatever, right, so this kind of rigidity that our people tend to really, really resent is easy to fall into, when we're comparing our disorder to others either to think like, I am not ADHD enough, or this person is like, way, way lower functioning than me because of this, right. So that's, I think, something that, that I get out of relisting to our episodes, it's like just how much variation there is, in our experiences, and then finding the commonalities through that is more empowering. I think, because the disorder, like the flip side of that is that it means that the disorder doesn't define you. Right, it means that because you have ADHD, it is not. It does not then in a deterministic way, indicate what your relationship to build paying or stitch ripping is, right? It just doesn't, it means that in your brain, certain neurotransmitters are not operating exactly the way you want, the architecture of your brain might be a little bit different. You may have problems with some executive function and emotional regulation. But our areas of hyper focus being that our levels of functioning in different areas are completely different, right? Because if you're very, very interested in producing perfect seems, then you're gonna wash and iron and like I learned how to do a Hong Kong finishing stuff, right? Like, oh, my God, I was interested in cleaning seems like, alright, but that's right.
Yeah. And it's also like, the, I think both now that we're Beltone we can talk about that and really bore our listeners inadvertently become a sci fi cast. But But that's, but there's something about that to where, because we will follow what we're interested in. It doesn't the the idea of beginner and advanced. Doesn't, you know, like I? I was like, Well, I want a shirt dress. So I'm gonna make a shirt dress. Yeah. Not knowing that, like, wow, you had a really good collar. That's hard. And I'm like, I don't know, it. Just I did it. I didn't you know that I didn't think about it. Or I made this that doesn't fit anymore, unfortunately. But I made this really great 70 style wrap jumpsuit. And it had a notch collar. Man, I didn't know that notch collars were supposed to be hard. Yeah. And I just I was like, All right, well, let's just do it. Because I love the look of this jumpsuit, and I want one in Burgundy. And so I'm gonna make
her and that's your Elle Woods moment. What? Like it's supposed to be hard. Yeah.
I didn't know it was hard. Don't get me wrong, but there wasn't there wasn't impossible. No. And there wasn't that intimidation factor. Because it was so new that it was just like, you know, or somebody had said, you know, drawing animals photorealistic animals is really hard.
Yeah. I mean, like, when I looked it up online, it's not that complicated. It's just tedious.
You need technique. You need patience. You need a little bit of hand eye coordination. You need the right kind of pencil and like, Okay, fine. Once you get that under control. I said to my kid, I was like, oh, actually drawing for isn't hard. It's just boring. And they looked up from their tablet like popped one headphone off one day. because we were co working but not talking to each other. They just looked at me We're like, Yeah, or it's tedious get over it. It's like, okay, great, right, like, but both of us have incredibly low boredom tolerance. Yeah, just this kind of tedium we don't actually find boring, right. And that's like our hybridizations distinguish where our executive function falls apart and where it doesn't. Right. So what else have you noticed in our episodes lead?
Well, we have come a long way. Virginia style. Yeah. Virginia slim style. Yeah, as we sit here, smoking in our like, crisp white polyester suits. In hand drawn in old school, old timey mad men ask type? No, but this is even just you talking about in our episode. Hey, did you know there are levels between zero and 11
cheeses are there though.
But I really listened to that one. And it was amazing, because you were struggling with those three articles and presentation
was and I finished them. Yeah. And you finish them.
And you finish them in a way but also in a way that was you found a way that was manageable for you?
Right, whereas the friends we made along the way? Yeah, it wasn't that I got them finished. It's what I learned about how to finish stuff.
Yes. Right. Yes. And the insight that even just between that was February 10. Maybe it was the jazz hands ones anyways, between? Oh, no, maybe it was the divergent thinking when you were talking about because I've listened. Of course, I've been just them. Right. So it was like, a whole bunch back to back.
Like, are you still listening? Shut up.
Yeah, it was still listening, waiting for myself to pop back in. And but even just like the, you know, still working through things, in these episodes, and then to be able to, like, remember, because it was pretty close by what we had talked about last episode of how you got them done, how you how you approach the work, and incorporated, probably consciously and unconsciously, all of those things that we had been talking about in those other episodes. Right? How do we manage our energy? How do we how do we get our attention? And so to to think about just and celebrate? And also I would say for, for listeners, right? Particularly pre pandemic time, right? Like the that might as well have been 20 years ago. You know,
totally 2014 Never forget, yeah.
But it's just like we've we've come a long way. And we've incorporated all of these things. And we've gone through the process of we're still going through the process, and we're muddling through and sharing the process, but to, to think about as listeners that it's like, it's not, it is a process, but it's not impossible. Yeah, that's right. This is, you know, if you go back and I'm gonna go back and re listen to those ones that we did in for our recording sessions, that then I spent, like, eight hours listening to an editing to, like, make actual episodes work. Um, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm proud of that person. Right. I am proud of the work that we did. I'm proud of what we talked about. But also, I can look back and say, I've come a long way from that. Yeah, right. And we've been we you and I have made tremendous progress. Yeah, I think we have but but sometimes it's easy to forget that. Right? When when you're mired in all the shit.
Well, listen only and we know we because we've talked about this on this podcast ADHD time is what now and not now. Now, right now. So we're like in the Jeremy, Jeremy kind of temporality, right? Where whatever problem we're having right now is the biggest problem that ever existed and it has been ever thus, and it will never change. Right? So it can be difficult for neurodivergent people who like I will tell you I struggle every day with aspects of my disorders that make it difficult for me to meet my goals, right? I regularly go to school. Two hours later that I want to
write asked me about the medical bills that are still sitting on the kitchen table right now that I could just it would take me 15 minutes to call and go online with him
somebody else? 15 minutes, it will take three weeks and then 15 minutes, right? Yes, yeah. So like, the struggle is real. There are still things I struggle with every day. Some of the things I struggle with are the things I struggled with when we started this podcast, right? But I feel like I'm getting a lot more insight into both the nature of the disorder from the research I've been doing like for this podcast and for other things and because in my day job, I am a critical disability scholar and the parent of a disabled kid, right and I feel I have more insight and I also feel that I have been able to do some personal growing? I'm not done yet. Right there The struggle is real. Like, you know, I'm still in therapy every second week. And there's at least one moment every time I talked to my therapist where I'm like, thanks. I hate it. And he's like, that's your takeaway today, right? Yeah, I say thanks. I hate it. I didn't think of it. And I don't want to think about it. But I'm sure you're right. Thanks. I hate it. Right? Yes, I'm still having those moments I'm having. I'm having them this week. I was just actually I had one this morning. I'm talking to you. Now we started recording just after 1130. Because I had never remembered what time we were doing this. And I asked you at 1130. If we're recording at 1130 here, like Yeah, I'm already here. And like, Well, shit. Okay, now I have to update my Zoom. Right, always. So I'm still there. Three minutes late for everything. And I have a meeting with a grad student at one. Hi, Kelly, that I'm excited to have. And this morning, I meant to get here a lot earlier than I did. So I could do some like fussing the dates on my assignments, and my syllabuses and stuff and I just don't want to because I was like, I'm just fucking around, because I'm going to like talk with Lee. And then I'm going to talk with Kelly. And it's going to be fun. I was like, but no, both of those are work activities. It's just an era cognitively demanding. And they require my expertise. It's just they're not as lonely as to do with my syllabuses. And they are interactions with real people in real time in which I get to improvise from my vast store of knowledge it, which is the thing that I don't get to do when I'm preparing my courses ahead of time, right. So I'm trying to forgive myself for not wanting to do that and lowering my expectations, I just need to have all the due dates, I need to have all the readings, I need to have the syllabus ready. That's all I need to get done. I don't need to gild the lily. And like work ahead on stuff. I it's just a struggle for me when it's not that I don't want to work. Right. It's that the work that is easiest for me to get into is not the work that is easiest to do. It's the work that I'm most raised up by. It's the work that I get my energy from, which is interesting from for others. So I have to learn that I'm avoiding some of these other tasks, not because I'm lazy or unprepared or I don't like to work I do. It's just some types of work, that are still very cognitively demanding, and complex and important, are just easier for me to get started on doing. Yeah, that's all right. I'm not skimming the cream off the top. I'm not doing the easy stuff, the things that I find easy other people find hard. The things that I jump to first thing are things that other people avoid. For a long time, I just have to show myself a little bit more kindness and then find ways to gamify or trick myself into doing the things that are necessary. But that I struggle with, right. I don't have to as it turns out, judge myself. Yep. for that.
That's new. That's new. That's new.
I mean, I'm still judging myself. That's why I'm noticing. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, and that's, that's, that that goes back to Hey, did you know there are levels between zero and 11? Right. struggle, the struggle. And I'm so I'm I'm editing or CO editing, a collected volume of essays right now on neuro divergence in the academy. Yeah, it is a lot of affective and emotional labor, which I'd signed on for a friend of the podcast, former gas, Kelly Baker, had to had this I had submitted to, I'd submitted something as a to write about and what I ended up writing about was being neurodivergent in academia to neurodivergent as children feel like the role is the parent and the academic and neurodivergent yourself in negotiating those, those boundaries. And, and then all the shit happened. And so I was writing it in that moment where it was like, well, then, this is different than I intended, but still important. Anyway, Kelly had to back away from the project. And Rebecca, Rebecca Pope Ruark, who's written a book on academic burnout. Yeah, we still have two years. I was like I offered I said, Look, if you think it'd be easier to edit it yourself, because you don't want to onboard someone or figure out all of our various quirks we're working together, I will totally understand. But I also know how much work it is to edit a volume that is as emotionally demanding as this one. And so if you would like help, I would, I would be happy. I think this is an important volume. I think that this is, so I am willing to, you know, take the time and the investment. And she said, Yes, please. And I said great. So now the essays are all in or mostly all in, we are in the first rounds of editing going through it. And something that has come up a lot in the podcast and I think that we we work to come to terms with in terms of like of what you're saying is that ableism sucks and I just want to have, like, half of it so far. I haven't read them all, but like, sort of like half of them are like, yes. Ableism acknowledged. Half of them are like not there yet. And I just want to be like, Oh, sweetie, I want to love you. Again. It's gonna be
like a Barbie. Welcome to the real world thing. Yeah. Right. Yeah, get on your rollerblades and you're gonna wind up on Venice Beach, and someone's gonna slap your ass
up like, Oh, yeah. And you don't want just to have that realization?
But they're gonna, yeah,
well, you actually you kind of do, right? Where it's like the call is coming from inside the house and right, but they realize that this call is coming from inside the house. They don't know why the call is coming from outside the house. And you're just like, Oh, I just want to like, can we want to give them my podcasts, I want to be like, listen to all of these, even though you are neurodivergent and might not enjoy this particular tone and or rhythm. But I would like you to have this as a gift. Because like, your I recognize where you are in the process right now. Yeah. And
like, maybe that's something that we can think about in a future episode, too. Yeah. Like, we're not new to this. Now. Like when we started podcasts. I mean, the reason that we did start podcasting was because I had been open about my diagnoses on when I got them, right. Remember, my post was like, who's got two thumbs and autism and ADHD diagnosis? I was like, this gal, right? It's like, my aunt was like, your oversharing. I was, like, blocked?
And, well, I mean, I've been sharing about my depression. And I mean, yeah, for a long time for a long time, as well. And so it just makes sense for us. Yeah.
But then, like, you and I were back channeling, you know, when you were going through diagnostic processes with your kids, and then for yourself, and then we were sharing resources with each other. And then you were like, This is so useful, we should do a podcast, right, which is like very much in you're sort of connecting people and giving style, you're like, this conversation I'm having with Amy is very valuable. I think other people should benefit from this, too, which would not have occurred to me, right. Like, it's the same thing, it feels like the same vibe as what you've just done for this edited collection. Right, which is, yeah, people could benefit from this. And I want to help bring this to the world's like, in a midway thing sort of sense. And, and, and at the time, we were both kind of early in that journey of trying to understand and we were both learning a lot of a lot of things and really struggling I think to, to rewrite our own biographies, retrospectively, in light of the things that we were learning about ourselves. And as we spend more years, like living day to day, prospectively with that diagnosis in front of us so that we're not rewriting that bits of our past, like, since the diagnosis, I don't have to rewrite, like, right at that time, because I already know, like, who I am, and I'm looking at things through that frame. And as I gain more years, and you do too, of living in that disability identity and spending the time looking back through your biography prior to the diagnosis, and re understanding yourself as having always had this neuro divergence and learning how to be kind to yourself that way, we become more comfortable being who we are. Yeah, right. In ways that people just entering having a diagnosis now are not and we're kind of becoming maybe the boomers here, where we're like, Well, you just need to do this. That's what I do. Right? Like not maybe remember
things ADHD colon, okay. boobers.
Okay, boomers, right. But, you know, sometimes it's not our job to be like, no, no, actually, yeah, that's called internalized ableism. And here's everything that I've learned in six years since my diagnosis I'm going to give to in one paragraph, and then God six
years, right, like, whatever
it is, right? Like, No, I know, but I think it has been and it seems like, I just threw that number out there Damn you for like, bringing attention to it. X number of years, let's say I don't remember. I don't know, I'm gonna start counting at my domain account in my head. It's very bad. But like, so maybe we we have to develop a new skill now is that people who are new on this journey are not going to be where we are. Yeah, yeah. And we have to let them go through their process because like, I don't know if you know this, but a lot of neurodivergent people are quite sensitive to rejection.
I don't know. I don't even heard about that. I never heard about that. Even though I said it wrong for the first 15 episodes. 20 Even now saying it wrong.
You did that that's okay. Because everybody knows what you mean. And it's like a text message with a typo when it who cares the message? Right and, and if anybody's
wondering because they just jumped in it's rejection sensitive dysphoria. Yeah.
Not rejection sensitivity.
Yeah. Which is what I called it. Yeah. RSD or a lot. Yeah.
I mean, so some of us are sensitive to doing things wrong like that it would feel rejected by somebody more senior in the ADHD hierarchy. following us how ablest we are to ourselves, we need to get over it. And some of us also are oppositional and anti authoritarian, that would be my brand, right? That's my journey, I'll do what I want. I'm actually not going to think those things now. Because you told me, I have to right? And so kind of like learning maybe how to be kind to ourselves, we have to learn that everybody on this journey with us is not at the same spot.
Yes, in. Right. And that's, and that's something that I think editing this volume is helping me to see learn and understand. But again, as I said, also reflect on my own journey and sort of like, I don't know, if I would have been able to edit a book like this. Six years ago, seven years ago, right, where it would have been too much, way too much. Mm hmm. As opposed to now where I can not detach, but like, balance, right, that there's something between zero and 11 billion developments.
I hear this in the podcast, when I listen to them, you're, you're really big on the apps that remind you to take three deep breaths, and you're really big on the mindfulness and meditation apps. And you know, like, I don't need to go to sleep, I actually just need to go be in the quiet with my meditation app for a bit until I calm down, like you're getting much more skilled at emotional regulation, because your emotions are fine, your emotions are natural, a lot of us, you included, we feel our emotions much more intensely, and much more quickly than other people do. And we often lack the skills to not be carried away on the tidal wave of our emotions, right? Like where I was dopamine? Yeah, I think you've developed probably better or sooner than me this ability to notice an outsize emotional reaction and take care of yourself, not where you have to suppress the emotion. But where are you like, my emotion needs a minute to move as go through my body? And it's not that I'm going to be over it, but I'll be able to handle it. Yeah, right. Well, and
that's, that's where it was Monday, Monday, I was like, everything is too much today. And that's everything is just way too much. I can't, I am crying for not no reason. But for, you know, perhaps not, you know, and it was just like, it was one of those days where it was just like, I can't take on one more thing today. And cannot take on one more thing today. And and that's and I had to like, let me cry it out. Let me just let me just give me a minute. I gotta let this all out. Today has been a lot. And I started listening to our podcast, and I was like, Oh, that made me feel so much better. Because I well, and it's that I felt this is the other thing that I that I've noticed about myself when I'm when I'm struggling is that I begin to feel I'm struggling because I feel very disconnected. Right to either family members or friends. And you know, it's been hard because the the platform formerly known as Twitter, is now a garbage fire. And it's Kanye phase is in this new phase,
right? The artist formerly known as Kanye site, formerly known as Twitter. Yeah.
And not that good Prince way, but
in the No, no, in the Kanye way.
But the I have a friend of mine who's a, who's a futurist, and he's calling it the social media winter. We're entering the social media winter. I'm like, oh, no, that's what I'm like. Yeah, you're not wrong.
But I'm not ready.
Yeah, no. And so it's, it's exactly I think a lot of us who are neurodivergent really aren't ready, because like the, the sheer number of AMI of our network, who have gotten a score of diagnoses in the past six years since we've gotten them is like, statistically not impossible, obviously. But it just sort of shows it's like, Oh, hey, we all became friends on Twitter, because we all sort of saw ourselves in each other and became this community of like weirdos and oh, hey, look, it also happens that we're all neurodiverse.
I mean, but there's a reason that happened on Twitter, which is like the world's greatest like alternative and augmented communication platform for dumpers, interrupters, asynchronous thinkers, aggressors, yeah, workers, right, all of those pathologies of the communication deficits that neurodivergent people have. Are not deficits, social media, right? And so there's a reason maybe that the neurodivergent population is a bit over represented in some of these spaces is because that's maybe our most natural and ease full communication style. So like, if we're in the social media, winter and I'm not emotionally ready to deal with that yet. It's, it's because I do know that's my best social platform and even podcasts are getting shitty, right like the ads are proliferating services are getting Word more stupid and like, oh, man, it's so hard to find what you want. And yeah, no, no, no, because this is this is my jam for people.
And so so. So even just reconnecting, right like, reconnecting with you through a podcast and just being like, I just I want to talk to Amy. But I can't right now, but I do have her like I said in my pocket as a podcast. I'm not yet AI Amy, which would be Oh, my God, that'd be so weird. We should totally like, propose that for like a conference and then like, Oh, God, everybody
would think it was malfunctioning. I'd be like, No, that's what I sound like. Yeah, no, that is popping up Beastie Boys references and singing lyrics from singing in the rain. We don't want to
having said me, for me having so many verbal tics that I was like, oh my god, Lee shut up and make a full sentence without any of those words. Like that.
Well, the AI might miss recognizes first show pain podcast also, right? This is the danger of listening to yourself. If there's like a significant archive of you online, you're like, Oh, my God, I am a caricature of myself. And then you become self conscious about it. Then you're Jack Donaghy on 30 rock with like, trying to do the commercial with two coffee cups in his head? Like, is this what I do with my hands? Yeah, right become a national bar. Because you feel like you're doing a caricature of yourself, which is a caricature of who you thought that you were. And now you suddenly like don't know if you're right handed or left handed anymore? Yeah.
But isn't that like the same? It's not the same like sort of arc that many of us went through on social media and even blogging. Right? Where we were like, you read early blogs, and you're like, let's try to do here. This doesn't really sound like me. But it was like, Oh, I'm blogging, I have to be this person. Or like on social media, I have to be this person and then eventually get comfortable enough that you're yourself. And it confuses the AI because it's like, Are you this like character or yourself? Or is this more you and they will mash it together and make this like Frankenstein? Oh, I
was always a monster, I should say. I was always me. And I'm really glad about it. We went to see theater camp last night. Oh, gosh, at a rep cinema highly recommend because like my husband was a theater kid, and I was a theater kid. And our child is a theater kid. And we're like, yeah, it was great. But we're standing in line waiting for popcorn eternally because there's like two dopey looking probably stoned kids tried to run the concession stand and the computer's not working. So we're there for a long time. And I'm making jokes about the names of the beer. And then the woman in front of us turns around, looks at me, and I'm like, Oh, God, what did I say? And she's like, Were you on? Do you work at UW? And I was like, yes. And now I'm like, What did I say? What did I say? What did I say what I say she's like, I saw you on TV talking about the stabbings and I just wanted to thank you for that. I was like, okay, but like, that happens to me sometimes now, like people will stop me in public. And I'm usually in the middle of doing something stupid, but very on brand for myself. So I'm really glad that in all of the things that anybody would have seen me and like online or heard me on the radio, or like, whatever it happens to be that probably when they find me in public, I am absolutely 100% consistent. Yes, whatever it was that they thought that they saw, but it's still a bit unnerving. I'm like, did I just say something really stupid? And is somebody going to tweet about this now?
Yeah. What? Or if they do, Will anybody actually care? Yeah,
that's right. I always like afraid when people come up to me at conferences and say, like, I read this paper of yours, I'm like, Oh, shit. What do you think about like, when people come up and say, like, I listen to your podcast? I know. We're going to be friends. Yes. Yeah. Right. Now you're a secret society because like they're already implicating themselves by telling you that they listen to your podcasts or like, you wouldn't have listened to that. Unless, right you were looking for that. And
I guess I guess getting feedback from the email. We're making like lists of stuff to help people cope and deal with ADHD with with new diagnoses. Like,
you'll see those lists too because I'm like, is there something on there I can read because like, I still, like I'm still a hot mess. Yeah, this is like a very good for us. I think this is a congratulatory thing. This is like an invitation to new listeners as well to like dig through the archive and like listen to the journey because if we sound like we have our shit together, I assure you it's a work in progress, right? Next week, we might not we might not already have an idea but what we could talk about next week and then I'll have to re listen to this episode
to remember what it was that okay, well, you should say it then.
Okay, let's say overexcite abilities, a theory of over excitability of neuro divergence. Get excited, are you feeling excited? already?
Already? Yes. I
just you'll ever li get so excited about something that you were trying to do that you had to stop doing it. Have you ever tried something you really cared about doing because you work so excited about doing it? That you did it too hard or too fast or fast
in the past? Correct it? Yeah. See 50% of my son projects, right? over most of most of my blog posts
over excited this,
this the the initial for our recording of this one overextended?
Yeah, yeah, sometimes it's the thing itself. And sometimes it's like this will be like the Coming Soon. This is like the the cliffhanger for people. Like if you ever get so excited while you're writing something that you compulsively scratch the back of your head until it bleeds. That's it and then have to wear a hat a writing hat. I listened to that one too, and over excitability, and we can maybe talk about that next week.
Yes, yes. I love that. And I would just again like to thank the listeners so much for sticking with us through this and if you are a new listener, welcome. Join us on this in the same crazy these are all ableist words.
Lately, what are you doing?
I don't know. I'm over excited. Now. I'm over excited
about negative all the best words. Were just manifesting internalized. Ableism here Yes. Yeah. Joining us on this wackadoo journey. Well, I could
do there we go. Like this Pee Wee's Playhouse Fun House. This bonkers bonkers. You have in the background? Max Headroom
in the background. Yeah,
I see that. That's a that's a that's a good vibe for this too. I think. Talking Heads. And, and yeah, so email us again, we'd love to hear from you at all the things firstname.lastname@example.org All the things. You can also find the podcasts on our website, all the things adhd.com. But if you're in any of the major podcasting, you can just keep scrolling backwards and they see more See More, See More. Show all episodes, several episodes until Season One, there are a lot there's 80s. Now there are 85 of them. And I'm sure maybe I'm counting wrong. Somebody's gonna correct me, which is fine. I was gonna
say send us emails if you're listening to our old episodes, and we've made a Howler of a mistake.
Yes. Yep. Because that's funny, because we've completely forgotten about
it. And please know, we don't prepare any of this. No, no.
They I think they know that by now. Yeah, they think they've realized that fairly clear. Yes, it is a long weekend here in North America. It is a Labor Day weekend. So I hope that you have a good long weekend. And if you are starting back at the academics, because you have not yet because you are reasonable post Labor Day starting dates. I wish you the best because who play in Canada? Oh my gosh, that's anyways, I have heard stories about that movie. And, and yeah, so we are going to sign off now because Amy has to meet a grad student who she's very excited to meet with and
when I have upon, okay, I won't belabor this Good bye, but have a great Labor Day, everyone.
Oh my god, that was amazing.
Thank you. All right. I use my radio voice for that. I could
tell you use your voice for that. Alright, everyone, take care and hopefully we'll see you next week. But you know, eventually bye bye.