Hello friends called Open to let you know that this episode will actually be the last guest episode four. So you got a lifestyle degree. That's right, we are wrapping up the podcasts. So our next and final release in two weeks will be our episode to end all episodes in which we will change up the format and have some sort of conversation between just Frieda and myself to wrap up this project very nicely. In any case, please enjoy the final episode of so you got Alexa degree.
Hello and welcome back to so you got to Lakeside degree for your hosts for Rita and Lisa to low sigh undergrad students trying to navigate or future careers. This is Episode 23. And we're talking to Dr. Anna Clements about science writing. How are you doing today? Lisa? I'm doing okay, I've been doing more work in the lab now that things are picking up. And I'm actually starting to do some stuff that isn't purely for the sake of me learning. But yeah, I've just been I've had having a lot of struggles some due to the protocol just being like, really tricky to get right. Some due to just me making like silly mistakes. Like yesterday, I was running a Western blot, which for people who don't know, it's just Well, it's like a DNA gel. But for proteins, basically you load samples and then you run them through a gel using an electric car and that like separates proteins. But we use like these pre cast gels that you buy from a manufacturer. And there's like the strip at the bottom you have to take off before you put the gel into the apparatus. And I just forgot to take off that stroke. So my gel literally ran like a frowny face. Oh, my face was a frowny face.
Everything was just a frowny face. So I don't know if I should be advertising now on this podcast.
Yeah, honestly, I feel like everyone who works in a lab when they start out or like I'm the worst.
Not to diminish your struggles. But I feel Yeah, this you shouldn't take this. I don't know like what it is like, I feel like I haven't been this part of my course lab. I mean, I did accidentally make 10% aigars my course. It's I misread the instructions. It was only 1% I made 10% We could even get it out of the beaker. Like I feel like that was the worst mistake I made in my course lab. But I feel like I've been making several mistakes in lab lab. I don't know, man. I'm doing all right. I talked to my manager to be for the first time about a week and a half ago. Yes, yes. You got his name wrong. Yeah,
I kept I'm not gonna
say his name but I kept and keep thinking it's a different name. But What a silly mistake to make the nella Yeah, but also I found out that I actually have to move back to Toronto and not I feel like you're a parent right now. Like I'm like, I'm
just like sad.
Yeah, I told my actual parents who basically like we're almost literally jumping for joy. I mean, I'm yeah, I'm pretty happy about but yeah, it was it's just been hectic trying to find a place to live. And
yeah, so what are you thinking? Are you thinking roommates? Yeah, I think it's pretty impossible to find a nice
roommate.
I mean, yeah,
I guess I should clarify without selling an arm and a leg. But yeah, I think I found a place I'm really excited now. Oh, yeah. That's been my last week. It was Who are your roommates gonna be there to random strangers off of Facebook. But they seem really nice and very fun. They're currently living there. Yeah, they are. Cool. Glad to have you back. When uh, when is your move moving date? I can start living in the apartment from September 1. So yeah, Alrighty, so I will see you on September 1. Sounds good. Okay, Frieda. What is the squirrel of the week? So this week squirrel is stealing squirrel law. So my friend and I got burgers and just sat on campus. This is like two weeks ago. Yeah. And as soon as we got our burgers and sat down on a picnic table on campus, there was like three squirrels and like two birds that I'm fixated on. Oh, no, it's like the velociraptors in Jurassic Park. Yeah, literally. terrifying. By Yeah, we were just watching these squirrels kind of climbing up and down the trees around us and stuff like that. And at one point, this one squirrel was just happily doing its thing, you know, eating the food that it had. And it didn't notice that there was another squirrel in the corner. I didn't know this quarter squirrel.
Takes the food out of the other girl's hand.
away and guess girls I can't catch up before it's Oh no, that's so sad. Yeah,
I'm pretty epic, but
I'm definitely this girl that got the food stolen. I feel like I like to eat slowly and enjoy. So I feel like in the wild it would not bode well for Yeah, I also do the thing where you know, keep your best food for last but your family's like I am down your best. Yeah. All right. Are you ready for an interview with Anna definitely ready. This episode is sponsored by resume word. Resume word is an AI powered online career platform that gives you instant tailored feedback on your resume and LinkedIn profile. They offer three main tools score my resume, which uses AI technology to instantly score your resume according to what recruiters are looking for. Targeted resume which analyses job descriptions to identify important keywords and skills missing from your resume, and LinkedIn review which identifies gaps in your profile to increase your visibility. Each of these features provide specific feedback to help you get past automated resume filtering and land interviews. They both offer free tools and optional paid features. I've been using resume worded myself for the past few months and I'm finding it really improves my job applications. I'm consistently surprised by how many weaknesses it is able to identify and the helpfulness of the step by step feedback. I'm also subscribed to their email newsletter. I normally hate email newsletters, but this one genuinely provides the synced and helpful advice that I would have never thought of otherwise. To check them out visit resume wordid calm.
This week's guest is Anna Clemens. Anna is a scientific writing coach. She helps researchers write better papers and less time both in her online course the researchers writing Academy and an online workshops for groups of researchers. And it has herself been published in Popular Science magazines like Scientific American, and has helped researchers get published in Nature Communications, the Journal of the American Chemical Society and other high profile journals. She holds a Bachelor and Master of Science equivalent degree in chemistry from our w th Aachen University in Germany, and a PhD in material science from Chalmers University of Technology in Sweden. Thank you for joining us today. Anna, thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here. All right. So first question we have is what is your job as a science writer? And Coach?
Yeah, good question. And this has evolved actually quite a lot over the time. So right now I am teaching researchers to get published in high ranking journals without liking structure and the whole writing process. And as I said, I run an online course and for individual researchers, and I also run workshops for sort of groups of researchers, like labs or PhD programmes or poster programmes or things like that. All right,
cool. Thanks for that summary. So do you think you could tell us maybe a bit about what that looks like on a day to day basis?
Sure. So my days, I should probably say, I'm not a morning person.
And that's the good thing about being a freelancer or
being self employed, because you get to decide you get to make the rules. So I start work. Usually I'd like midday, and I try to work for like, people. And
it's an advantage because I'm based in Europe, but I work with a lot of folks in the US. We also in the late afternoon, so that's really, really good. And that's synced up very well. So I would usually Shut up. I try to start every workday with something that I owe that is called I guess, deep work, which is to me, often, I thought writing or it is looking, reviewing homework from workshop participants, helping the students in my online course, is writing blog posts or editing blog post any of this like really like high level work where you need to have a lot of focus for. So that's what I'm trying to do first. And then there's a bit of everything. Like there's so many sort of small things that need to be done from like marketing financial staff, just like organisation, or talking to my assistant arranging things, having calls with people who are interested in a workshop for examples, so I would hop on a call with them, talk to them. Yeah, it's like super varied like this. A lot of things that happen that can happen in a day.
Yeah. Are you able to speak at all to the different areas of science communication? Like I know there are people who make videos and there are people who do educational science communication? Are there different categories that you know of that are like either defined or just loosely defined?
Yeah. It's a big field, science, communication and
guess there is, I don't know if you can include that in science communication, but you could look at it sort of through the lens of which audience you're talking to. So if it's researchers talking to other researchers that sometimes also call like science communication. And I think it is, it's, it's correct to do that, because I mean, researchers have to communicate with each other about their research so that they do and like, whenever I papers, right, they would publish a paper that other people can read. And that's a form of communication. And then of course, conferences, like giving a talk on your research or presenting a post on your research. That's like a type of science communication that you would do in between sort of researchers. And then you have science communications, that is, and I think that's more sort of the what we think of, I guess, in most cases, it's like when you have a researcher talking to the public, or to like a lay audience, kind of trying to break it down. And there you can have, so I will kind of distinguishes this sort of subfield, again, into like two areas where you one is when you have sort of like a middle man, middle person. And that could be like a, for example, in the universities, many universities have like communication departments, where you have people who've write press releases about new studies. So this is a form of science communications, or you have a Science Festival, for example, that is organised by people that are not the scientists themselves, but it's organised sort of by a third party, or like a science museum, things like that. And then, of course, you have journalists as well, then you have the science writers, or science journalists, who often pick up those press releases and write about it for like traditional media. And then like, the second category would be researchers who do that job themselves. And I think this is more rare. But um, for example, on Instagram, probably also on Twitter, there's kind of a lot science communication happening also, that is really originating from the researchers where they are talking to the public. And of course, some researches write books like popular science books, that's another form of science communication. But yeah, in terms of formats, it's near endless. I mean, no, but like, there's books, articles, videos, I mean, there's all sorts of flow of technology or formats that that are being used. Yeah, yeah, definitely seems like there's different types of things you can do within the field. Are you able to comment at all about what the job availability is like in the in these different categories? Like science journalism, like research, writing, I know that sometimes science writing can seem like one of those really cool things. But there are some things like that, where it's hard to actually break into the field. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it is certainly true. Like, it is cool. I mean, I love it. I love writing, I love science, writing, I love this whole world. But it is really difficult to break in, as you say. And I would say it's also actually difficult to survive. So even once you're in or that has been my experience, I managed to get him but then I struggled staying in there. And that was not because I wouldn't get commissions, I would get more commissions than I could handle. But I didn't manage to sort of make a living off it. So I wouldn't get paid enough basically, for the work, it would take me to write a piece. And I think this is certainly something that if I would have tried harder, I could have solved I could have gotten better at writing less well risk.
And be a little bit more economical about it. But as I, I saw myself as basically still learning the craft to some extent, so I wanted to improve, I wanted to get better. So I would take my time, I would make a really thorough and good job when I would read an article so that it didn't really it was also economical. And I mean, this is so to some extent, I think you can become smarter about this, but then there's kind of I don't think you can ever be or very, very few people. And I don't know if it's even still true. If you could even start now and become sort of you will never get rich off it. Most people that I know who do science writing or science journalism that do it like in a freelance capacity that aren't employed, they don't earn very much money at all. And they often sort of need their spouses to provide like, you know, like it's not it's actually sad, like it's a really it's really, really sad how the industry sort of has evolved. And the whole sort of decline of the printing press just has made it not very lucrative field and I think this also applies to not only science writing but to all freelance writers. Yeah, whatever newspaper or magazine you would write for like on whatever topic I think it's just tough like it is really, really tough. Especially when you're then consider that you have to take care of all the like, your pension like All that stuff that you should take care of as well, it's hardly possible, in my experience. So that's the biggest problem, I think.
Yeah. And that's really hard because you like with writing, it can never really be 100%. Done. Like, there's always something that you can do to make it better. So it's hard to know, you know, when do I stop? Maybe maybe going back to some of the more technical details about about your work. So you mentioned that you do a lot of coaching now. So do that you can maybe tell us about some of the most common mistakes you see when people are writing scientifically?
Sure. Yes. So I'm specifically helping people with writing papers. So this is sort of what I know the most about. And in papers, I think there's sort of two, two major things happening that I see happening. I think the first thing is that researchers often don't tell, I would say good enough stories, and there are articles. And I'm a little careful in writing this because I know that many researchers are trying to tell stories. And I know that sort of the term storytelling has been thrown around a lot like every researchers that I talked to knows about, oh, yeah, I'm supposed to tell a story. But then what I see happening is that the paper that it's being produced, as then, often not very coherent, like the story is just not very coherent. It's not very concise, or it's just kind of really difficult to understand what the authors are saying, Yeah, this is kind of one of the aspects where I'm like, this is a little sad to me that this is not being defined enough, and that there isn't enough sort of tangible, tangible tips, I guess, like instructions around how to actually tell a story, what that actually means. And the second point is, it's really more connected to the way papers are being written. And this is also something that's a little heartbreaking to me, because I see when I speak to researchers, like writing a paper is so so often, like for many, it's so emotional, like it's something that like, they really, really suffered doing it because it just feels so mega stressful, they some feel lonely, some feel really, like just frustrated with the process, because it's not progressing. Because they have, I don't know, just this, like, do you mean fear of Oh, my God, my paper is probably gonna get rejected any way, or who am I to try to get published, and I don't know, nature, or whatever journal they're going for, like, there's so much sort of happening during the process. And that usually results in that the writing process is kind of like chaotic, and that takes people a very, very long time. And this is really what I try people to help with. Okay, let's structure the process. Because in reality, it's not that like the process of writing a paper, I feel like, in my opinion, it's really quite linear. Like, it's not so much it doesn't vary so much between people. I think some people say that every that the process is different for everyone. I don't really agree with that. Like, I hate to think it is rather linear process, or we can be with variations, of course, but with smaller variations. But yeah, and I think, then the two sort of mistakes kind of go hand in hand, like they're kind of connected, because if your process isn't very streamlined, and kind of colour chaotic, and you go a lot back and forth, then also probably the piece that you end up with is kind of incoherent and maybe unclear. So that's really it really boils down to that this is never being taught like in academia for some weird reason, many academics, most I would say, never see an academic writing course, never attend one. And even if they attend one, the courses are very, very focused on like linguistics, I find like they teach a lot of like English, maybe this is different in the US. This is what I've seen in the countries that I've been in. In Europe that weren't Cypher English wasn't the first language. They were very focused on teaching the language. And not the process, like the process has never been talked about at all. Storytelling is rarely talked about a bit more often.
Yeah, yeah, I think thanks for going through all that. And speaking about how some papers can take so long to write. I've heard stories of researchers who have been trying to write or published a paper for like, one two years after their research has been fully completed. Let's just like how do you how do you feel about that? If you had, if you yourself have the power to completely change how we distribute research information? Would you do so would you not? Yeah, what are your thoughts?
That's a very difficult one. So the way we currently distributed our research, make it public is via the peer review process normally, or that's like sort of the gold standard And publishing scientific research. And then of course, you can do things like preprints, like publish a preprint, which is that you, you have different preprint servers, and people can just upload their paper there. And it still goes through like an initial check, but there's no peer reviewers who look through it. So what I would change. So I do think that a peer review process is needed. It's just a better way of making sure that the science that is actually being published a sound. And it's, of course not perfect, these are also just people who look at it, other researchers, and they have their own biases, they have their own gaps and knowledge, things like that. So we can never be perfect, but I do still think that it's important to do that. But if I had the power to change things, I would change that process a little bit. For example, one thing I would change, I think that should change in the future is to make the process double blind, which means currently in many fields, it's single blind, which means the reviewer the peer review, and knows who the author is, but the author doesn't know the peer reviewers, right? Yeah. And and then you have open peer review, where everyone knows where everyone is, which some people are really for, and I'm not for it. Because I think it will lead to biases, I think what we need to do is eliminate biases, because what you see is that especially early career, researchers have problems getting published like it's them, it takes sometimes years to even get like really good research published, like it's ridiculous sometimes would get rejected, where you're like, How can this happen? And then someone who has been in the field for I don't know, decades, who has like a big name gets published really easily like this happens, unfortunately, all the time. And I think you wouldn't solve it. But I think you would make the situation a little bit better by just not having the peer reviewers know whose work they are looking at. Of course, it's also not perfect, because some fields are really small. So you always know, oh, I'm looking at that work. Of course, this is so and so at that university, because you're just familiar with their research. But I think still it could help a little bit, at least Yeah, take away some of that bias. So I think this would be an important step. And I wonder why this isn't being done more often. Then there's other things I think as well one could do in the peer review process. Like one very important thing would be like that journals, I think should be more. They should take more responsibility. And they should clarify what exactly the role of a peer reviewers and what the role of a journal editors, because often what peer reviewers do is they they say things like, Oh, I don't think this is suitable for this research effort. Sorry for this journal. And I don't think this should be the peer reviewers. It should be up to the peer reviewer to decide or even have an opinion on because surely there should be the journal editor who sees all the submissions. They get everything that's coming in. And I believe that they should be the ones who decide which one is sort of the best. I mean, some publishers I know even asked their peer reviewers. Oh, do you think this is in the I don't know, x percentile of the best publications coming in? And how should the bureau know the answer to that question. They didn't know about the other article Exactly. See the one they're looking at? It's impossible to say. So in strengthening the policies and guidelines, also like providing training to peer reviewers. I think it's so weird that peer reviewers aren't obliged to just undergo some like basic training, just like okay, how do I give feedback? How do I even judge other people's work? Like what should I look at? Like these things? I think this would already improve the process. I'm probably also sort of shortening it because it would become more efficient. Yeah, sorry. I can't geek out about this.
That's okay. Yeah, no thing. It's a it's a big question to answer. Maybe going back to a bit more about your job personally, thank you for answering all those questions, I believe back to you. You kind of talked about how it can be financially challenging to be a science writer, how can be difficult to stay in the field for that reason? Are there any other parts of your work that you would say are especially challenging,
not challenging, in that sense, like being self employed, or running a business is challenging, but it's not like a bad challenge. Like I love it. So I'm, it comes with like, insecurities also financially, of course, especially at the beginning, like the beginning is always so so hard with these things because you take some time to build a client base, a customer base built an audience, people who listen to you, people who want to read your blog articles, things like that, right. So that's, that was definitely challenging. That isn't so challenging anymore for me, but then there's things I think that are challenging just in terms of like, they take a lot of sort of brain can we just fill me up Looking at my when I help my students and my workshop participants with their writing, like really getting getting really deep, because like the work I do is like super, super deep. So we go really, really deep into the research to try to find what the story is define what I call a key story elements. And that like that is challenging in a way that like, it takes a lot of effort from me a lot of concentration, but it's also where the magic happens. So it's also like the fun part. Like it's also the super rewarding part when you've managed to coach someone and like, Yes, that's it. Like, that's my central message. That's what I want to say in this paper. Yeah, that's just so much fun. It's a challenge. Like, I wasn't sure what you were referring to. But challenge, it's not challenging and that I can't overcome it. It's more like the fun part. But the hard part.
Yeah, but that's cool. Maybe moving on to your journey and becoming a science writer, when you kind of entered university. What were you really thinking about in terms of what you were going to do in the future? And then how did you go from that to becoming the science writing coach you are today?
Yeah. So funny, I would have never thought, of course, like most people, that I would end up doing this. So I just, I didn't have a big plan. When I started my undergraduate degrees. I was just thinking chemistry is fun. I really loved the vibe, I really loved doing the experiments. You're you're unique in that. Most people don't think chemistry. Yeah, it's so odd. I actually, like funny story. I went to this university, and Ireland to study biology, but I didn't have the grades for it from high school. So I was waiting, like the system. I don't know if it changed. But in Germany, the system used to be in a way that you there were certain subjects that were like super popular, and then you had to have the grades to get in. But then there was some like other mechanism where there was like a lottery or like if people wouldn't accept their place because they were applying to several etc. So I was actually there to do like a preparation course in chemistry, waiting for my place and biology. But then, I thought the introductory course was so good to say the chemistry as probably the only one. Yeah, I just loved it. And it was really just a love for the subject that kept me in it for so long. So I did this decree that was like, at that time, what I wanted in Germany, because I'm old were they hadn't switched to the bachelor master's degree yet. And we did like a diploma. And I think the year after they switched, so I was just the last, basically to do that. So that was like a big decree like you did five years. And I just loved it. There was a lot of research projects and stuff like that, that one could do. So I was just where I would go to like different labs. And I would also go, I was actually going for one, I was actually going to Sweden. That's how I knew I wanted to go to Sweden afterwards. And I went to Berlin for one I just like, I really liked it. And then it was kind of clear to me, I would do a PhD because I liked it. Um, during my PhD, there wasn't much sort of reflection on what I would do with it, I guess, because you're so busy doing it like it's so so exhausting. That I really took some time, after 10 hours, I was quite burnt out afterwards. I guess most people slice that for most people. It's just for most people, it's a very intense experience with a lot of work. And I just needed some some time to like, reflect. So I really gave myself that time to some extent. And I just tried to Yeah, reflect what I liked about research and what I wanted to do next. And it was really clear to me then that I actually also took some coaching. Yeah, I went to some career coaching as well. And I mean, Sweden, so I was basically unemployed in Sweden, which is like the best place to be unemployed. Oh my god. Like, you can pay when you employed you pay money to like a private unemployment company, and then they support you financially when you're unemployed. So and also not only funding, they don't only give you money, but they also provide you coaching. So they really, really try to help you to find a job you're like and get a job like, I got like workshops on like LinkedIn writing series, like all the things. And I also got this career coaching and then I just started to look for things that had to do with writing because it was just so clear to me that I want to do something connected to writing. Because when I was writing, I was always like the happiest like during my PhD like other people would hate writing my thesis. I loved everything. I would like feel so accomplished. I think that's what I was missing when I was doing research. Just so like you never know, like, it is such hard work to get data that you can actually rely on. Oh, yeah actually tells you an interesting story that isn't just like boring. And it was so much sweat. And you never knew Oh, is this like, what's this whole week? sweating with it like that? I couldn't deal with that. I don't know, I was, I need some sort of sense of like fulfilment, okay, I've done something today. And that's what I got. When I was writing. I was like, okay, like, I've wrote two pages, or three pages, or whatever. And that started, that was like life changing to me. So yeah, I started out taking loads of sort of freelance gigs that had to do with writing. And that's sort of how that whole journey started, then into that area.
All right. Cool. And so then how did you go from just starting in the field to becoming more experienced, and also transitioning to coaching?
Yeah, so I actually, so for the science writing, so I took like, loads of different gigs. I literally went on, like, indeed, this job site, I guess, indeed.com in the US, but they have like regional ones as well. And I just took like freelance gigs, Ghost writing, editing anything. I also worked a bit for my university where where I did my PhD, like, I was actually involved in like a Science Festival sort of thing, writing and organising things. And yeah, just loads of different things, writing profile pieces about professors at the university, like really, like, I took anything and I just tried, tried it out. And then I guess the biggest thing was to I went for an internship with the German edition of Scientific American. And if you want to go into science writing, I guess that's basically what you almost have to do is to try to find that internship, because what really, really helps is getting those connections getting this network to editors who can who would commission right, who would give you pieces give you work. And also to just get the experience like I also just wanted to like properly learn how to write like I wanted to really, because I'd only done like sort of the writing that you do during a PhD. And then I just basically was like, self taught just experience and wanted to like, have a little bit of more formalised training. And that's what I got there. And, but then it was, yeah, loads of based on own initiative as well. Like, I would go on Brighton workshops. Yeah, I would just get jobs where I would learn the things that I wanted to learn. And I would read books. Yeah, I read a lot of books as well, on the topic. And yeah, I think then I started editing papers in the beginning, so I wouldn't coach but I would edit. And that's really, like, it was so interesting to me, because the editing I would do was super, super thorough. So it's kind of like a reoccurring, but you are very, like detail oriented person, I like doing things like properly. So um, I would go really deep into the people in the researchers papers and give loads of suggestions on like, the story line, like that was always the biggest focus when I was editing. And then I kind of had like a lightbulb moment where it was like, it's really too late, like when you edit the papers already written, the researchers have already basically had enough. They just want to get it published. Now. They don't like it's too late in the process to go and try to change the story. Now. I mean, you can do it. It's just not a very efficient way of doing things. And then I was like, Okay, I actually need to start teaching how to do it instead, instead of sort of going in in the end and fixing it. I should yet teach people how to do that. And yeah, that's how it started then to do more coaching, and now and then I switched to having a course, or workshops, just because it's more accessible to people and I can help more people that way.
Yeah, that's really cool. Thanks for sharing your journey. And then maybe if you switch to giving advice to other people who, like let's say, I'm interested in becoming a science writer, besides internships and the path that you took, do you know some other things that you might recommend that they try in order to realise that goal, um,
so to become a science writer, if you can get an internship, I guess it's the best way but of course, like some internships are unpaid and stuff like that. So it's not always possible. And it's kind of also like the kind of chicken and egg situation because in order to get an internship, you need to present them articles that you have published, like it's a little weird to get in. So I would just try to get any job, any cake you can, even if you're working for free, like I'm not a big fan of working for free, like I like that concept at all. But if you can at least get some like for the experience, something Even if you're still like for people who are in a university right now who are like doing a masters or bachelors, or PhD or whatever, see if there's any sort of magazine, maybe at the university that you could ride for. I didn't do that, because I wasn't that strategic. Like I said, I took this time to switch. And that's not a very strategic way to do it. So if you can do something, while you're actually still getting a salary, or scholarship or whatever, that's good, you just need some pieces. Basically, the beginning is very hard, and then it gets easier and easier. And that's also so I can probably also recommend two books that helped really helped me. One is called something like no contracts, no problem, how to how to pitch and sell your freelance writing piece, something like that. That really was cool, because the author really tells you how to Yeah, basically, what the title says, like how to when you have no contacts, how to get published, how to get commissions. How do you structure pitch? How do you follow up on a pitch? Like, how does the industry actually work? Because you don't know that in most cases, of course, when you want to write you don't really understand the whole world of Oh, I need to write a pitch first. And then yeah, like she gives like the author gives really like nice advice on like, how little editors actually care about your previous experience, how much more they care about your original ideas and things like that. And that just gives you some confidence to not be shy about approaching publications, even though you don't have much yet. Yeah, there's also another book I read that was called the science writers Handbook, which is a very nice sort of, it's almost like a journalism light, very light. Of course, it's just the book. If you haven't gone to a journalism course, or college or whatever. That was just a very good way for me also to, to just understand some things about the industry.
Yeah, that's really cool. Thanks for sharing that. You're welcome. All right, cool. Well, then, thank you so much for being on our podcast. It was so nice to talk to you. And I'm just no writing myself. And so yeah, this is really great to learn about what the field is like. Thank you so much. If you would like to learn more about Anna's work and coaching, you can check out her free one hour interactive training for researchers at researchers writing academy.com slash training. We'll also put that link in the show notes. And you can also follow her on Twitter at scientists. Right Thank you. This has been another episode of so you got a lifestyle degree with Dr. Anna Clemens about science writing, we want to give a special thanks to a crew of lovely patrons including our little leaf patrons nyeem, Danielle Shafiq and shamima and our fantastic foliage patrons Stephanie. If you like to become supportive this podcast for the last two weeks of its existence, you can visit our patreon@patreon.com slash so you got a lifestyle degree. The music you're hearing is no regrets from audio hub.com Thanks for listening and see you next time before the episode to end all episodes.
