484-Lies of Architecture with Rion Willard and Enoch Sears-Podcast

6:35PM Aug 18, 2023

Speakers:

Enoch Sears

Keywords:

architects

architecture

lie

architectural

money

practice

business

work

fees

making

pay

ryan

owner

running

firm

design

highly

give

project

statement

Knowing that if I run a business well guess what money is the fuel that runs the engine. Hello and welcome back architect Nation. I'm Enoch Sears. And this is the show where you'll discover tips, strategies and secrets for running an architectural practice that helps you do your best work more often, and not just your best work. But how you operate your business flows over to every other area of life, or family life. If you have a family, friends time outside of work for passions, your projects, everything goes into how to have a good business and how that business impacts the other area of life cannot be understated. Now, if you run an architectural practice today, and you haven't already gotten access to our 60 minute for motor training, what are you waiting for, head on over to smart practice method.com And you'll be able to sit through a training you'll get learning education units for this and you'll get 10 years of expertise and and experience working with small firm owners distilled down into 60 minutes of how you can run your best practice. Now today I'm joined by Ryan Willard Ryan. Hello, Hi, Danny Nick doing well. So today we're going to address this topic of architecture lies. This is going to be a multi part series. We don't know how many parts there will be to this series. But this is going to be part number one, and we're going to be addressing, as I mentioned, architectural II will explain what this means. But ultimately, we know that the outcome of a lie is a falsity, and in business and life and anything that we're going for when we're not standing on a foundation of reality, or facts, as we like to say, then ultimately what we will produce is fiction. So understanding on the foundation of falsity that we produce fixing our life, this, this has all sorts of problems in the architecture industry of having mid career professionals jump out leave the industry, low pay across the board, competition between firms where they're focused on price and undercutting each other. Very, very high requirements placed on architects while other stakeholders aren't as liable where the architects are carrying the bag. So there's so many problems and issues relating to these lies we're going to be addressing, and Ryan has prepared, he's going to read a little, a little, little manifesto that he wrote about this particular architecture lie. And this is something that we hear often. And now when we say lies, please, please, we don't mean to. We don't mean to incur any shame or guilt, or perhaps just a little bit, perhaps a little bit. But what we mean Are these are these are falsities. And with that, let's just jump right into it. Ryan, this is this is a statement that we hear architects say, and the statement itself isn't the light. But there's a there's a layer of falsity or a fiction underneath this that we're going to be talking about looking at today, because it's very important. And the the myth, or the the way that us as architects have embraced this urban legend has, has had an his having disastrous consequences for architectural practice.

Yeah, I think it's important. I mean, we're using the word lies. And I know that's a very strong word, and my upset people to call this a lie. But we've got

to be these lie lad to do it, we want to upset as many people as possible.

And these lies, these lies are clever, right? That's why we're calling it a liar. Because it's clever, because on the surface of it, it comes across as something so noble, okay, a lot of stick. Yeah, a lot of the architecture lies on the surface of them. And I get it, I understand what people mean, I understand what they're trying to trying to say. Right. But it ends up getting these statements, these lies, get abused. And they become the root of a lot of self deception, and a lot of letting ourselves off the hook and not having to be grown up and responsible about the fiscal matters that are happening in our businesses, and the damage that they can do. That discomfort for team members for for individuals, people's practices, their financial health, their mental health, you know, all of the banners that we wave of, you know, all these fantastic causes, you know, from diversity to sustainability, all of these, you know, they, as an as a broke architect or an architecture practice, that's not financially, you know, kicking, there is no agency to be able to make these causes reality. Therefore, I would also suggest that if you're if people are saying these things about these causes, and their businesses are not working, then there's a there's a, there's something inauthentic about that.

suddenly find when you say an authentic what do you what do you mean, right? What do we mean when we say an authentic

that it's, it's a pretense that we're saying one thing and then behaving in another way that doesn't facilitate the thing that we say that we're standing for.

Exactly. That's it. That's it. Now let's jump. What we'd like to do here is we'd like to identify, we're going to we're going to first address the problems that This, this particular like causes. So problem number one would be overwhelm. And overwhelm is generally this is really to another lie but overwhelm, let's talk about what overwhelm is, as more specifically, having too many things to do in the day as a practice owner. So, one of the challenges of running an architectural practice is you have so many, there's so many hats that we have to wear, we have to invoice we have to make sure the pipeline projects that come in and not to mention just the architectural side of it of producing drawings. So what are the impacts of a firm owner being overwhelmed having too many things to do, while it puts us into a state of heightened alertness, in other words of put us into a state puts our nervous system into a state of heightened stress. So this is the this is what we call the fight or flight stress symptom. In that there's the sympathetic nervous system, which is our, you know, basically it causes us to be in this heightened state of arousal, where cortisol, which is a stress hormone, is circulating in our blood causes us to be very alert, very wired, very ready to respond. It's a heightened state of stress, we're all used to this feeling. And I was just reading a study the other day, by a series of doctors who are saying that now more than ever, Americans, British citizens, I mean, people around the world, but it was talking about Americans are more stressed out than ever just living a life of constant stress. And what ends up happening when you live in a state of constant stress is number one, there's huge long term health impacts of being constantly stressed because the body in a fight or flight response when the body is readied for action. This goes back to our biological underpinnings, it releases these hormones that energize us that causes adrenaline to be released, it causes our muscles to be in a state of readiness, it causes the blood actually to leave our brain and go into other areas of the body, so we're more ready to run or respond rapidly. And this is exacerbated by running architectural practice, where oftentimes, there's a lot of demands from jobsite things that happen emails that come in phone calls, unexpected jobsite conditions, plus just the general worries of worrying about when the next project is going to happen. So the first impact would be this health impact, where our immune system is actually suppressed by the heightened cortisol and the heightened alertness of our body. So the body what it does, in a situation like that it temporarily reduces energy to the immune system, which then makes us more likely to get sick, it makes us more likely to get worn down, it makes us there's a whole slew of unwelcome health impacts that happen from being constantly stressed out. Now, if that was it, then that would be perhaps not that bad of a thing. However, we know that when we exist in a state of this fight or flight response, ultimately, the impact that it has on our higher level thinking or creative thinking, or creative functioning, it takes blood from that part of the brain. And again, to make our bodies more ready to response. It means that our our bodies and our brain state isn't what we call like a high medium or high beta state, which you can do the research on it. When you're in a high beta state, it means you're constantly alert as to what's happening right now, ready to respond, instead of perhaps an alpha state, which is a state of creativity, where you're more in a flow where you can see patterns, you can see connections. And this is where the real breakthroughs happen not only in design, but in business moves and leadership in your life is just being calm enough to be able to see things from a higher perspective. And we can't do that when we're constantly in a state of stress and overwhelm. So that's problem number one, we could probably spend a whole episode talking about the negative impacts of having too many things to do as a business owner.

So some other problems that occur from this lie entertaining this lie in our mind is low fees. Right. So this is a complaint that we hear all the time, that you're just being underpriced. That you haven't you're not commanding the fees that you want to be commanding. Very often, actually, a architects practice doesn't know what high fees would be. So they just know that they're low. And there's a whole load of accompanying stresses that comes with low fees becomes very difficult to actually deliver the work the way that you want to deliver it. There's a big drain on resource. The partners or the owners of the business end up getting sucked into doing enormous amounts of production work, therefore not being able to build up their financial pipeline of new of new projects and new work. So the practice gets Can this kind of up and down cashflow cycle feast or famine, feast or famine? It on the worst case scenario with low fees, we know that people end up working, they're over, end up working these enormous hours. And that can be not just a few weeks, this can be over periods of years, it can be enormous. And then of course, all the stress symptoms that you just mentioned there, that kind of is going to come hand in hand for sure. It becomes another problems, we've got low fees, we've got stress and overwhelm. Another problem is actually being able to build out a team. So this lie that we tell ourselves means that it becomes incredibly different difficult to retain talent, okay? Unless they get brainwashed with the same lie, which often happens. Right. But there's a there's a, people have a breaking point. And people who start to wake up and kind of realize that this is a lie that they've been fed, and that they bought up bought on they will leave. So staff retention becomes very difficult. And we see it right across the board recently, with you know, architecture practices, they struggle to pay a high wage a high living wage for certainly mid tier architects Oh, and guess what happens? Other corporate companies, so either large corporate architecture firms swipe, swipe in and take that, that talent or different industries or different kinds of related industries, say product manufacturers will take advantage of that kind of talent, and they can often afford to pay much higher fees. Okay, well, we have this or we, in general have this exodus of, of talent, very interesting, I was speaking to a recruitment agent the other day, over, you know, over the pond in the US, and he was telling me, this idea of the great exodus of all the talent disappeared, it's not so much that there's the talent has disappeared, they'd gone where they get paid best. And it's a much smaller number of practices that are able to pay people well. So there is a bit of kind of people leaving the profession. But there's also this kind of 8020 rule of distribution, where, you know, a lot of mid tier talent people are looking for is, well, they're going to where the money is, they're going to who can pay them the best

energy for energy goes, where resources flow, and Vegas where resources flow.

So this lie sustains the inability to retain staff and to attract the type of caliber of people that you want in your business. And the lie also can impact the actual quality of the work that's being produced. So the actual output of the practice might be under par. Or if it is the kind of caliber of work that the practice wants to be producing. It's a no enormous cost. It's an enormous cost, all the things that we're just talking about kind of mental health, hours time, lifestyle, kind of work life balance, relationships, all this kind of stuff, it becomes a very, very high price to pay for that kind of caliber of work that everyone wants to see get published. Okay, or, on the flip side of it, the work just isn't up to par, what people want it to be that we get that horrible tension people always, you know, so many practices are like, well, you know, if we did it, if we just focused on this one resource, then you know, the work would be terrible.

So this has salutely. Yeah. So it it impacts the level and quality of architecture that's happening in the world, which has got quite a big impact as

well. Absolutely. And so the other aspect of this, the other problem that it causes is the lack of agency. Right? So, again, we've spoken about this a number of times, you and I, INEC were very committed to economic empowerment of human beings, right, and just happens that we're focusing on the architecture industry because that's, guess what, that's what we are. That's where our experiences and that's what our expertise is. And, you know, we are architects basically. And economic empowerment is so important for making change. It's so, so important for making change. And architects generally are very wise people in a way. They're very altruistic. They have a broad awareness of society and civilization and how people interact and grows communities and it's something that's very important. And they've got the also architects are incredibly good at being able to think long term and see into the future and speculate and be optimistic. I've often said here, it's rare that I meet a really pessimistic architect, even the most downtrodden, er esque type of architecture to scrape on the surface a little bit. And then shining, bright light of optimism is actually still there still intact. Right. So architects in general, we've got a kind of caring nature to the profession, and an awareness of growth and wanting people to develop and evolve in communities and cities and societies. And that means that we're often very passionate about certain causes. So diversity, inclusion, equity might be one, sustainability is definitely another, just general levels of housing, and being able to be somebody who's, you know, making change in the housing crisis is that might be going across the western world, or other places or whatever other kind of noble cause there is. Okay, this all our ability to have agency in actually taking action or executing an action or making change in those things, is deeply impacted and reduced by believing this lie that we're about to talk about.

Absolutely. So let me tee this up with a quick story here. And this is so as we as we now you're probably wondering, okay, what's the lie let's let's have let's have

at it right to it, teasing them mean they're teasing

or teasing you. As you know, as we've talked about on the podcast, Business of Architecture myself, personally, I've, I've been looking at investing in an architectural practice. And so I've been in talks with a couple that have come and gone. And the current practice that I'm talking with, it's not going too well in the in the talks, because the the firm is highly unprofitable. As a matter of fact, in the first five months of this year, they've taken a major loss. And the firm owner stressed out overwhelmed. And as I was looking at this feeling quite, quite compassionate for this architectural firm owner because it's, I empathize with the stress that this person is going under, right now feeling extremely stretched thin, and at the same time, not making any money to boot. And my mind went back to the first time that I met this firm owner, and I was introduced by a business broker. And so we met at a Panera Bread, and we're sitting down. And as we're sitting down across the table, I could tell this firm owner, first of all, was very, it was very interesting, because he didn't really know me wasn't a follow the podcast, obviously, if he's running a unprofitable architectural practice, but he was very, he was very cagey, very cautious of the price is the right word. And very, very hesitant, very skeptical, because I was a businessman, as he put it. So he actually said a couple of comments during a conversation, that that where he said, Well, I'm not a businessman. And he actually admitted to being a little intimidated because I was a businessman. And he's basically saying that I've never run my architectural practice, like a business, and then went on to give a lot of reasons why he's done that. And one phrase took it stood out would be, he said, he made it very, very clear. He said, I've never been in it for the money. I've never been in it for the money. And this is something that I've it's not the first time I've heard it. As a matter of fact, this is something that I used to say, when I started my architectural career and went to school to become an architect. Right, I did want to I did want to have means I wanted to have resources, I wanted to be involved in a profession that that compensated me adequately, but becoming rich and wealthy was never my that was not my top criteria to picking architecture as a profession. I was willing to sacrifice some financial gain, compared to my hedge fund manager buddies are my venture capitalist buddies are my doctor buddies, or my other friends who are picked high paying careers that are that are known to be very high paying. So I compromised on that, but it was a knowing compromise, because I valued the artistic pursuit and giving back to humanity as the way I saw it over over finances. So I understand this is something I said myself now. This is this is a phrase, If I had $1 for every time I heard it, an architect say it to me. You know, we could probably maybe not quite retired tomorrow, but at least take a first class trip down to Costa Rica and do some surfing, or maybe go to Pebble Beach and spend a day golfing based upon the income from that. Okay, so now this is this isn't the lie itself, but it does point at the lie behind it. So the statement is this is which is I'm not in it for the money. And so when we say I'm not in it for the money in architecture, there's actually a hidden subtext or something else that we're saying here. It's not you can't take it at face value. What does it really mean? When we say we're not in it for the money What's behind that? Because of the face value? That's great. I'm not in it for the money. Well, great. What I find interesting is like most people that I know, even doctors are not I know very few people. I can't say I know anyone who's just in their career just for the money. I can't think of anyone, my attorney, friends, my doctor, friends, my, my real estate investor friends, well, maybe they're just in it for the money. But

I know people who are in finance, who are who are in it for the money,

but there you go, and they live miserable, horrible existences. Okay, so most, most people that have careers professionals that I know of in my personal circle, anecdotally, they're not they're not in it just for the money. But are they in it for the money? Absolutely. Right. So what's the what's the hidden? What's the hidden context here? So is if we're not in it for the money, Ryan, what are we in a for? Are we in it for the poverty? I hope not. I'm not in it for the money. Well, what are you in it for? I'm in it for the to be broke. I'm in it for the I'm in it for the poverty? Well, obviously, we have higher aspirational things that we're in a for we're in it to design, to exercise our creative muscles, to be able to provide whatever services we're providing to people housing spaces, addressing a lot of the issues that Ryan was talking about earlier. But what's what's the hidden subtext that we've seen? That goes beyond that that underlies the statement, right?

So the subtext is saying that I don't care about money. And it's saying that I that money is not important for me. And it's, and it's also, what it actually plays out as in a business is that, well, then you don't come responsible about money, you don't have to be responsible about money. You don't have to look at your accounts, you don't have to think about how profitable a project is, because I'm not in it for the money. We're not in it to make to make loads of profit and to make money. That's not why we do it. We're here and in it for the design for the, for the, for the noble contribution that we're making to society and civilization. So we're not in it for the money. Well, guess what? Bet your team members are?

Yeah, at least partially. Right?

They want to get paid? Absolutely. They're, they're working days off, because they want to get paid. So, you know, I will hear employees and business owners say this as well. But the the sinister thing about this statement is that it ends up as a kind of escape valve of responsibility. It means that if I identify as somebody who is not in their profession for the money, it means that Well number one, I'm kind of elevated by saying that because I'm not a I'm not a low level, selfish, greedy business person. It's quite normal. It's, it's, it's, I'm altruistic, and I'm here to serve humanity and to and to give. Okay, but then on the on the, you know, the kind of sinister part of it is like what I'm saying it's, we don't have to be responsible for money. We don't have to look at it.

Have you have a beautiful manifesto? Ryan? Would you be so kind as to read that for us?

Yes, I'll read the little. So I'm not in it for the money. This is a work in progress. By the way. This seems like a noble statement at first. However, it gets abused and becomes a statement that allows ourselves to get off the hook. So we don't have to face being financially responsible. We don't have to own our financial circumstances. It's not my fault. I hear architects use this a lot. Sometimes. I have the opportunity to look at somebody's finances. As what we do here Business of Architecture. Sometimes we see like, what you're just the story, you were just sharing your look at somebody's finances. And often when the outlook isn't good. Well, here, I'm not in it for the money. Okay, so it becomes an excuse becomes a reason. And it becomes very easy for us talk to waive flags of virtue for causes that we care about. But to have real agency means being financed. Is this easy? No. But it's not as impossible or as hard as the statement above makes it Alright, so I'm just what I'm saying there is that the statement itself, I'm not in it for the money ends up being this huge handbrake, on all the things that we're saying that are important to us.

And it also it also justifies the problems that we're experiencing so it justifies the be overwhelmed. It justifies the, the reactionary operation of an architectural practice. It justifies that because we can say, well, you know what, I'm dealing with all these things. But I'm not in it for the money. So these, these are like the necessary cross that I have to bear, these are the necessary sacrifices that I make, to be able to do something that makes the world a better place, without necessarily making the financial aspect, the prime, that prime motivation, which is just, it's just a lie, right? So it's like saying, It's like saying that my car. So you know, my car has an engine, right? It's like saying, Well, you know, the engine, the engine, isn't that important to the car. I'm not, I'm not in it to have an engine. I'm not in it to have an engine. So here's my car. It's a beat up old Ford Pinto that's barely running along, it's burning gas and burning oil. And you have to push start it down the hill. But um, you know, I, to be honest, I'm not really in it to have an engine. As a matter of fact, it doesn't have an engine, it just sits there on the side of my driveway, collecting cobwebs and dust, because I'm not in it to have an engine. I made it to go someplace. But you know, I'm not in it to have an engine. Yeah. So we somehow we separate this idea. So it's the same thing with money. Because we can't we can't separate money in the need for money from running of a business. I mean, that's just what a business is. So certainly, we don't need to be in it for the money. But what we're really saying there is, money's not important, I feel uncomfortable with my ability to to manage it, I don't have enough of it as I would probably need to run the business that I need to be running here. And so as a result, I My mind goes back to comfort me in this difficult situation, which is quite difficult by telling me that I have nobler aspirations, and this is the price to pay to be able to do good work. And the underlying lie here is that money is important. Not only is money important, but it's essential for an architectural practice and having high aspirations are not are not counter opposed to caring about money. Right. So sort of like saying, like, caring about having an engine is not counterpose to getting someplace.

Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting, because it's, you know, we get it, we understand why people say I'm not in it in it for the money because you're trying to make a distinction of I'm not selfish and greedy, and we're doing this just for cash. Yeah, get it? Nobody is. Yeah, right. But also, that statement has this kind of power to it, which means that it allows us to negate money in the business and be irresponsible. That's what happens. And, you know, we keep on hearing it and seeing it and, you know, I'm always remember, the, when I first started studying architecture at the Bartlett, probably one of the first days there, the whole year group was kind of brought together there's maybe 120 people, and the head of the first year there said, Okay, so there's 120 of you now, there's probably only going to be 30% of you that actually make it all the way through to becoming an architect in the space of the next decade or so. Right. Okay, so it's kind of qualifying us already and setting setting out a big challenge. And she then went on to say that this is a profession where you will not be making a lot of money and it is very, very difficult. And that is not why you are here. If you want to be making a lot of money, then you'd be choosing a different career. So I think back on that now, I mean, as a student I kind of just didn't even question that it doesn't even I was just like yeah, yeah, of course I know that I've been a

bit of self righteous is a bit of a rallying cry like we like a challenge that's yeah, it

was like get Bring it on, bring it on. I know I'm here for a deeper meaningful purpose that doesn't got anything to do with money filthy hander. I'm no I'm here for like something creative. And then it gave me the A gave me a kind of moral high ground to look at anybody else in a different profession that was earning a lot of money and to be like, You Cretan. Yes, you've self indulgent, selfish, greedy person, no idea about the the kind of riches that comes with following a noble pursuit for giving, that's giving back to humanity. So there's this kind of attitude, right. That was, you know, it, you know, and it was it was kind of like it at the time it was there was a sense of inspiration around that statement. But that's, you know, in any other context when people are doing that kind of thing that's, that's brainwashing because because that kind of idea that again, the lie or have this, I'm not in it for the money, we end up abusing this statement. It gets us off the hook. And the damage that ensues as a result, you know, underperforming businesses, low fees, people working crazy long hours not being able to pay staff. You know, the what it does to people's health, how it takes them away from their families working 80 hour weeks, right? Okay. We've been programmed, we've picked up something and unintentionally, it's, it's like a kind of viral a virus type of program that's corrupted. All the other sense that we've had. Right. And architecture education, we've said this many times, is completely avoid was completely void of anything business related. It's just seven years of this kind of indulgent intellectual musings. Right? Well, maybe where I went to school, I don't know, I kind of cases. I know that there is there's, there's a lot of other other schools, I will say that are out there at the moment, which are doing great things, and they're kind of making a much more healthy bridge towards the profession and citing the context of economics, you know, within architectural education, but it's, it's, it's they're few and far between. And they're the exception rather than the rather than the kind of the genuine generality. Okay,

we know what's really interesting here is that we, as architects, I know, because I've done it myself, we somehow merge this conversation of the morality of design and the making of money. So we somehow marry these things up where we think they're the same thing. We think they're related somehow, when in reality, they're not doing architecture and doing design itself is a profession as a craft, if I'm an architect running a practice, and you come to work for me, then I mean, I'm going to pay you a salary, yes, but at the end of the day, you're gonna be focused on doing architecture, not gonna have to worry about money. Right? They're completely separate. Now, if I'm a business owner, in addition to an architect, and I have a business to run, I have people to pay, I need to set adequate fees to be able to ensure a profit. So with the profit, we can then invest back in the business in the best systems and the best processes in things that bring us better projects like PR, like being able to have good marketing materials, being able to spend the free time building relationships and hiring people if I'm not a business developer, myself, bringing someone else on who can build those kinds of relationships. Crazy. Well, it is crazy when we look at it that way. But it's so interesting that we fall into this and the lie here again, the lie is not I'm not in it for the money. That's a true statement. The lie beneath it is money isn't important. Yeah, this is the light, the money isn't important.

misstatement is the kind of cover up the distress, the distraction, the distraction. It's the sleight of hand. There you go. Yeah. All right. It's the diversion tactic from the lies that kind of percolate underneath it. But we can start to sniff it out with with that statement.

Absolutely. And, and when, when we think that money is not important. I mean, one of the challenges that I found is, again, as an architect, as a professional, so architects, by and large, look, we consult with architectural practice owners, we're, we've trained as architects, ourselves, it's not easy to become an architect. And generally, if you are an architect, you're you're highly intelligent, you're a highly intelligent person, you're likely a highly ethical person. So these are great and admirable qualities. One of the challenges that I see especially like, well, I'll just pick on my doctor friends here for a minute, you know, is that we've gone through so much training, and we are so smart, quote, unquote, that oftentimes we think that everything should come easily to us, or that we know everything there is to know about business, right? I remember I fell into this trap when I started my architectural practice, which is thinking that I mean, I'm smart as an architect, so I could just figure this stuff out. You know, what is business anyways, it's simply a matter of businesses getting paid. I mean, that's all I thought it was, I thought you just charge the right prices, and get paid and maybe paid rent on an office building, and you're good to go. Right, which is a very naive way to look at it the way I looked at it before, because like Ryan said, there's a gap in the education. But it doesn't talk about forecasting financials. It doesn't talk about pipeline management, making sure that we have enough work in the queue. It doesn't talk about actually managing the workflow of that of that work. It doesn't talk about best practices for how you charge how frequently you charge, how much you charge, the way in which you collect. What happens if clients don't pay, it doesn't have anything to do with how you present your services, how you communicate the value of design, how you hire people, how you attract them to your practice, how you set up a culture, how you lead your people, how you keep them accountable. I mean, I can keep on going on and on. But there's a reason why people go to MBA programs and spend three years in an MBA program we've had MBA people with business degrees, MBAs come through our program, smart practice. And oftentimes they're like, man, you know, nothing I learned in my MBA really prepared me for running an architectural practice. Because it's different, you know, a lot of times MBAs will be going over global concepts that don't have a lot of applicability, like logistics, supply chain management, innovations in digital processing, you know, all sorts of interesting and very pertinent macro economic trends, you know, things like that, that are all very important. But for running a small practice, they're not important at all, you know, they're not really relevant. So, you know, one thing about smart practice, the program we run is we have architects that come in, and they're just blown away. They're like, wow, this is next level, like this is next level business education, that I could not get anywhere. And it is highly, highly honed, and highly tailored to running a successful small architectural practice. But it starts with a conversation of you got to make money is important, you got to realize that money is important. And when money becomes important, we're not saying that you need to be greedy. There's a difference. There's a difference between being greedy, and just wanting for personal gain. And making money important. Right, knowing that if I run a business, well guess what money is the engine of the car, or better said is the fuel that runs the engine. So

we're not we're not suggesting that you become like a soulless person who's just in the relentless pursuit of, of money to fulfill a kind of, you know, a lack of empathy and compassion in your soul. That's not That's not the that's not the polarized thing that, you know, being interested in money is about.

Absolutely. I mean, you can you can be passionate about design, we can be passionate about design, architecture, sustainability, building innovations, and how human beings live, how they interact. And you can also be passionate about making money. Yeah. And that is there's two separate things.

I mean, I mean, my personal experience with an I've worked some amazing architecture practices. But actually, the financial side, the dealmaking side, the salesmanship side, is actually more creative than a lot of architecture.

That is, that is a sad, but what do you call that it's sort of a little talked about. Little talked about a truth a little talked about aspect of architecture, architecture, let's face it, it can be very repetitive, it can be very formulaic. And yet the acquisition of a project, everything that goes into presenting the project, understanding the client's pains, doing the makeup of the client, understanding how the project fits in with the organizational goals of the client, all of these things are highly, highly intellectually stimulating. Pretty fun. It's a matter of fact.

Yeah, I mean, selling it, selling in conversation is, you know, the sales conversation is like, it's a beautiful improvisation. Right? And the best if you look at something like I've heard architects in the past, you know, they will make, they'll, they'll compare architecture to jazz music and some very lofty kind of philosophical music. And you're like, well, maybe I don't really think so. Okay, but having a conversation with somebody and other human being, where you've practiced and rehearsed bits of the conversation to lead it in a certain direction, as much more like, a creative art, like music, or jazz is a very, it's a very creative thing. And I think that, you know, when we talk about, I'm not in it for the money, we end up missing out on the joy and the interest, and the fascination around business and leading people and communicating. And all of that kind of just gets parked beside so we're not even, you know, we're not even ready to embrace or to enjoy it. It's just been, you know, that's the damage that this this lie has that it means that we kind of close ourselves off to this wonderful world of, of business and creativity and the art and science of, of negotiating and making money and, you know, building pipelines and all this kind of stuff. It's not a necessity. It's like you say, it's fun. It's like it's amazing.

Indeed, and there's there's other lies here too, that go underneath this particular lie, which is okay. Money is not important. This is a lie. We know that's a lie. Another lie that would be attached. That is the way that we moralize the making of money. So we moralize that they actually flip it around, we moralize the not making of money. We moralize the lack of money we moralize our neglect of our financials, which is very, very interesting how we do this. Right?

Yeah, it's the old starving artist kind of mentality. The Romans There Romans of the impoverished artist who is walking a true and noble path to their artistic integrity and, and self enlightenment by producing work that's unfettered and untainted by, you know, by financial gain. And it's like

it and it's certainly true that that work can be compromised by a focus on the on the money. I mean, I think that as architects, this is one thing that we see, and this is part of this conversation of, I'm not in it for the money is we see what happens when the bottom line becomes the most important thing. Right, we see people compromising their ethics, we see people compromising values, we see people doing things that are shady, underhanded, simply for money, right. But it's this is not an either or conversation. It doesn't need to be, well, you know, if you're going to make money, it's got to be underhanded, you got to be focused on the bottom line, you have to be driving hard bargain, and everyone else loses in the deal. That's not what we're saying. That's the other extreme. This is not a pendulum, we're not saying you have to be on one extreme, which is money doesn't matter, or the other extreme, which is like money at all costs and everything else toss it to the wind. Now what we're saying is there is a middle path, there is a middle path, and the middle path is high design value, high design, importance high craft and high profitability.

Yeah, absolutely. And again, with with, you know, when we're evaluating design, as well, I think, in modern architecture, we have such a focus on a very kind of Slim, vague, like a slim section of what is great design, because we don't consider the finance behind it, we don't consider what the what people had to do with the money that was available, or how the project was actually realized, or what the kind of the financial engine was behind actually the project and the constraints that the client and the architects were working in. So we dismiss it, we dismiss it, and it becomes less interesting. And actually, that's very problematic, because we end up viewing architecture in a very one dimensional way. Because we're kind of we're ignoring the commercial forces that have been at play. Or if commercial forces have been at play, and it's not aesthetically to our tastes, or, you know, there's there's, there's a perceived lack of innovation around it, then it becomes you know, slandered.

And what is it? What is the world look like when, when architectural practices are highly profitable? What can happen, then, team members are highly compensated. Yeah, firms can take on less work. Because they're well resourced, they have the ability to spend more time on those projects more time and design more time upfront, if they want to, to ensure better project outcomes.

We can wake at a much higher quality of product. I mean, you know, the, the kind of not the not focusing on business or money, and kind of denouncing it as something that's not important, leaves the architect vulnerable to other industries and disciplines that are much more financially savvy, who are much better at negotiating much better at marketing, and they win all the work. And then the overall built environment quality diminishes because there is no architects who actually be actively involved in in the conversations, or they've been totally, they've been totally cut out of it. And who gets the blame for poor quality built environment? Well, architects aren't the bag, architects and project get kicked under the bus, you aren't necessarily involved

on that rain. So just as an example of what Ryan's saying, Here, I have a I have acquaintance of mine, who runs a construction management company. So this is basically to do owner representation, which in a project, here's what it looks like. They're looking out for the owners best interests. So they're managing the contract there. They're reviewing payments to the contractors, they're certifying payments, etc. They're, they're processing and looking at change orders. So basically an in between person between the architectural team and, and the contractor representing the owner. So, I have a friend, she runs, she runs a company like this, and it's highly profitable. She spends most of her time meeting with people networking, doing business development. She has she works, you know, a couple days a week. She has a private plane that she likes to fly out to the coast so she can she likes going up to play golf. So she'll go play golf at Pebble Beach and stuff like this, you know? And she has, you know, I'm just like, I'm looking at this and I'm thinking, wow, this is really incredible zero liability. You know, getting paid handsomely, like the fees that this firm got paid on the architect was equal, almost equal to the architectural contract to actually deliver the project in terms of the fees. Right? Yep. And at the end of the day, all we have to do is blame ourself, right? It goes back to the victim mentality goes back to that conversation that they gave you at the Bartlett School, which is very similar to the conversation, they must be running off the same script, because I remember day one, any of my colleagues at Cornell, who were there and day one, they will, they will remember the conversation that our well meaning professors had with us, which is, you know, look to your left, look to your right, those people will probably not be there. Right. Like, this is like very few of you. 30% of you 20% of you're gonna make it through and they were right. We started out with about a class of 100. And I think they were there were 20 graduating people at the end all told, that graduated from the five year program.

Yeah. And and then they made it out because it was, you know, those people left because they weren't talented enough, rather than like they they cracked on. And we were like, sod this? This is? Yeah, yeah. And I'm not gonna get paid very well.

Yeah. They became wealthy, wealthy investors, they became poets. property developers, exactly.

We will work for now. Exactly.

Exactly. So we have, you know, when when when we tell ourselves the story, what it comes down to is we put ourselves in the victim category, which is like this is just the way the architecture industry is. So when we give up the story, when we as architects recognize and recognize the truth, we're not talking about recognizing something that's false, but actually give money, its due importance, then what ends up happening, the competition of firms competing with each other, trying to knock each other down on fees ends. Because firms now are standing in their own value, we value ourselves at the end of the day, we're the ones to blame for the fact that we don't get compensated more highly, it's just us, it's just us, we only have ourselves to blame, which is a difficult thing to look at. But the beautiful thing about it is the skills to be able to capture high fees, there is a way to do it, there is a way to communicate the value of design. This is one of the key pillars of smart practice that the firm owners learn when they go through our program, which is like, you know, the fees that you charge are usually number eight, nine or 10 on a buyer's criteria, like truly, however, what we think as architects, we usually think that the fees we charge up like maybe the top three things that our clients consider, they're actually not. So if you get highly skilled at communicating the value of design, and you understand how to sell, you understand how to sell your architectural services, you can become highly compensated, you can't have a well resourced firm. And this is a rising tide, that's going to raise all boats. But it starts with us, actually, understanding that money is important. You know, my fear Ryan, for the industry is that there's so many architects out here, maybe even some who are listening, that just the idea of making money important to them, actually turns them off it curdles their stomach, it makes them think, ooh, that does not sound very fun. I don't want to do that. I'll just suffer and deal with all the things that I'm dealing with, I'll try to continue to, you know, give the cheapest fees possible, maybe not the cheapest fees possible. But I'll continue to try to give very competitive fees as opposed to charging premium fees. And I'll just deal with it. There's probably there's factors, there's probably going to be quite a number of people in the industry that this is this is they're just not willing to budge. They're not willing to change.

But you will probably get emails about this podcast, people saying How dare you? How dare you guys, I remember once when I first started podcasting, a an architect. One that I looked up to a lot and respected, wrote me a message and said, You really shouldn't be talking about money. You shouldn't be talking about business. This is all out. It was yeah, you've sold out. It will be so much better to you to get back to designing beautiful buildings. Yes, like you're talking about this. This is not what we do. There you go. And I was like, you know, wow, dagger in my heart. And also like, wait a minute, why am I why am I now feeling bad about talking about money? And business? Why do I feel bad about expressing to other people of, you know, I'm interested in the money side of stuff. I want to see how to make more of it.

Well, you know what Jesus said about that, right? No. Okay. So Jesus said, Jesus talked about money in architecture. Matter of fact, little little people know,

squares that and where's that in the Bible? Let me know. Okay.

I'm gonna paraphrase here. He says, have joy when people persecute you and speak evil of you falsely because they persecuted the prophets that came before you. So when people have an unsavory message, there you go, Ryan, you've just entered the ranks of the martyrs of history with a message that is here to help humanity and you are being torn down. You know, it's funny that you mentioned that story. And that's, it's tough. You know, one of the things about us putting ourselves out here on a podcast on social media, is that we put our views up for discussion, we put ourselves out there to be criticized, we put ourselves out there to be argued with and contended with. I remember, you know, when I first started the Business of Architecture podcast, for the first out of maybe the first year or two, I was very wanted to look very professional. And so in the interviews, I would wear a white shirt and like this black tie that I that I had, and it was just for you probably to remember seeing those guys in your kitchen with the cat and I had my little curtain behind me and it was all black. Well, at least if I have a $25 curtain behind me at least I'll have a white shirt and a tie, because I want to look what people think I'm professional

classics and classic episodes. There. They

are. And they were they were good content. Yeah, they were great. So check this out. So there was there was an architect from from New Zealand, as a matter of fact, who wrote me a scathing message, and he criticized me and what if here's what he criticized, though, he criticized the way I dress because he says, You look like an accountant. And for him, that was the most like demeaning comment he could give is that I look like an accountant.

Less, I know, I know, it's funny. So So you know, not only, you know, not only do we say money's not important, but we actually use the professions that are involved in money as slurs, to cut down or call, exe or other people who are straying from the the standard narrative that we've all embraced. You know,

Bjarke NGOs spoken about this. He's he has said, in the past that when architects say, you know, when architects say, of another architect, or they're good at marketing, there's a whole load of unsaid narrative that goes there, which basically is implying, you're good at marketing, but you're not good at architecture.

Well done, which is another whole thing that we find as architects, and we're interested on your on those of you listening. So you who's listening to this episode, this is something that we've we've seen, I'm curious about this. But that's brings up a good point, which is our reluctance to market. So as a matter of fact, architects actually have a great reluctance to market because there is a hidden narrative, that, that if you're marketing, that must mean that your work is inferior, or substandard. So perhaps that'll be another one of the lies that we can address in a future future episode, Ryan. Oh, gosh, yeah. Like, I'm glad you brought that up. So our call here is simply this money is important. And making money important does not diminish all of the wonderful attributes and wonderful things that we stand for, as architects, sustainability, good communities, good Buildings, Better, you know, better societies, more responsible stewardship of the environment and our built environments, right, safe places, for kids, for families, for communities, for people, for individuals, and this has, is only going to be possible. And this can be accelerated, by making sure that we give money it's due, that we realize that money is important has nothing to do with architecture, per se has nothing to do with morality, it has to do with running a profitable business. And it's very possible to run a highly profitable business, that's ethical, that does great design, that makes a lot of money that compensates team members exceptionally well, that provides experiences training and personal development for team members. And that makes the owner as well, exceptionally wealthy. When we look at what architectural firm owners make, it's a huge spectrum. So we see firm owners, we talk to firm owners for making $70,000 $100,000 70,000 pounds which would Yes, which would be less right, less, less 30,000 40,000 pounds. And they could be earning more working at a Chick fil A restaurant or a Burger King restaurant at a management level or a mid management level, right? Without a degree without liability. And and so we look at this and we think, wow, there's a huge gap here that can be filled from where we're at, right in the architecture industry, to having architects who are exceptionally well paid. Ultimately, it starts with us and ultimately, it starts with caring about money. Now the good news for you listen to this podcast is that there will be a lot of your colleagues, they will never change. They will never change their mindset. They will never wise up to the fact that money is important, which makes an opportunity for wise Architects like you who care about design And and also recognize that money is essential. So you can make a lot of money. When we look at what architects make, yep, some are making low end of that spectrum. And then we have we have for motors. And we know we have colleagues, friends who are making, bringing home $800,000, a year, a million dollars a year, it's not uncommon to do that, with a practice that's producing exceptional work. Having great team members, having freedom and having a good life and a good business. So that's the picture we want to paint for you today is if you've fallen into this narrative of money's not important that you're not the only one. We have a disadvantage in the business world as architects, because no one ever taught us these things. And so it can feel a little overwhelming and discouraging. When it feels like the money so hard to keep it flowing and manage it in the practice, we get what that feels like. This is why Ryan and I are here in the architecture industry. This is why we haven't yet said, Hey, we're out of here, we're gonna go help lawyers or we're gonna go help business owners in other niches or other industries. Because we know there's a need here. And we know that someone like you who's listening here has the ability to impact the only way we can change the industry is for those of you who are listening to this now, to rise up to continue to hone your skills and what a better place to do it. Then this is of architecture smart practice program, where we're literally creating a movement of architects who are savvy when it comes to finances. And for more about that you go check out smart practice method.com. Ryan, I look forward to the future episodes, we're going to talk about some we have other other other lies of the architecture industry that we will be discussing, for sure. And we'd love to hear from you. You're listening, we'd love to hear the lies that you see that you've either discovered in yourself, because we all have them. We all go through these growth stages in our self awareness, but also any lies that you see in the industry that other people have. Right? send that over to us email support at business of architecture.com. Perhaps the lie that you mentioned will be the focus of one of our next episodes. Thank you. And that's a wrap. Oh yeah, one more thing. If you haven't already, head on over to iTunes and leave a review. We'd love to read your name out here on the show. This episode is sponsored by Smart practice, the world's leading step by step business training program that's helped more than 103 architecture firm owners structure that are existing practice. So the complexity of business doesn't get in the way of their architecture. Because you see, it's not your architecture design skills that's holding you back. It's the complexity of running a business, managing projects and people dealing with clients, contractors and money. So if you're ready to simplify the running of your practice, go to business of architecture.com forward slash smart to discover the proven simple and easy to implement smart practice method for running a practice that doesn't get in the way of doing exceptional architecture. The views expressed on the show by my guests do not represent those of the hosts and I make no representation promise guarantee, pledge warranty, contract, bond or commitment except to help you conquer the world. QRP DM