Interview Series: A Deep Exploration of Yoga Nidra (“Yoga sleep”) with Michele Loew

9:37PM Feb 1, 2023

Speakers:

Andrew Holecek

Michele Loew

Keywords:

yoga nidra

yoga

practice

working

people

liminal

sleep

body

deeper

healing

michelle

consciousness

bob

bit

fantastic

holiness

tibet

dream

rotation

happened

Welcome everybody to the center mind podcast Andrew politic here. My complete real genuine delight to introduce you to a dear friend of mine, Michelle Lowe, who's as you'll see just a remarkable individual. We had a fantastic opportunity to hang out quite a bit this summer at the wonderful Mandla retreat center in upstate New York. I got to know her and her work even more intimately, and I'm super excited to share her light with our community. And so as usual, a very brief introduction, and we're just gonna jump right in. So Michelle Lowe is an International Yoga teacher, a practitioner of authentic Tibetan Yoga is the founding director of the vada yoga school of comparative Buddhist and Indic yogic studies that she co teaches with our mutual friend Professor Robert Thurman. She has taught practice and study to avidly since 9998 and continues to run her longtime Yoga Studio in Portland. She is also on the board of Tibet House USA, and is devoted to supporting His Holiness the Dalai Lama's mission as well as preserving Tibetan culture and dharma and then the rest of her really rich bio along with associated length and whatnot will post as usual on the site. But for now, Michela deep warm welcome to our community and of gratitude in advance for taking the time out of your really busy schedule to chat with us. We really appreciate it. It's

my pleasure, Andrew, I'm a huge fan of yours. And, and so are many of the students that of course, you know, because of your relationship with Bob and, and, and Tibet, Tibet House and manleigh. There's so many people that I know that are devoted to you, and it was really great to be here. I wish I had more time to take all of your courses. My bucket list to go through all offerings. Yeah,

same with you and what you're doing with Bob. It's just amazing, but I want to start Michelle, you you have one of the richest histories and set of experiences around the topic that I think is a bit misunderstood in the West. And that I talked about within a particular context which I will share with you but I really want to hear and use as our kind of see question or conversation together this rich arena of study and practice called Yoga Nidra. And so if you don't mind, tell us a little bit about how you got into yoga nidra how has it benefited you? What is it exactly and where does it stand in your life today? So lots of initial questions across the brow here. But this is such a rich arena that my community is super interested in.

I love yoga nidra and I love talking about it. So thank you for the question. So I started practicing yoga nidra pretty much at the beginning of my yoga career. So I'd say 1998 And then I got I was very blessed to have at the first studio that I was teaching at and practicing. And 2000 a teacher that was had was very close to Richard Miller, who has developed a system of yoga nidra called the Irest and Richard Miller taught my colleague Simon monashee and and so that was the first system that I learned. And I practiced that for a long time. Yeah, 20 some years and then it wasn't until after. Oh, okay, so then I'll back up so when I was practicing Irest I had very restful practice healing practice, effects on my body and mind and I felt it was just a really good adjunct to relax seeing and feeling free of stress and working with the rest of my yoga practice. I could, it really helped me to learn to let go to surrender and just really be deeply present. And it also helped me to work with that. The witness consciousness, you know, we would say Purusha right and in Sanskrit, the seer that one that sees, so for me, it was a bit more of a sort of a dualistic practice at that time, of kind of being connected to my body, dissolving things that were creating pain and the physical body kind of going through all of the sheets, the layers of the body are and in classical yoga, we'd call them the cushions right? And so that working with the mind and the physical body, and and the mental, the mental body, of course, and emotions, and then the bliss body, and I had delighted in those practices, but then it was really probably, it was in 2012 that I first was exposed to more of those Sri Vidya times, tantra and I was practicing a lot of Sri Vidya Tantra, and working with people that had connected to the Himalayan master teaching to teachers. And with that, and sort of vinyasa practice that we were doing and just more time to move into the heart and meditate and rest there. I started to have sort of deep, you know, you can say I mean, we never like to say in Samadhi but it was it was definitely a single point awareness. Bliss more of a clarity of mine and connecting to original mine, maybe we could say Maha Mudra type of this, but you know, it's hard to put a name to it. It's twisty via the forestay. But it was, they were it was a very different type of experience. And then when I did in 2014, my first obvious shake him with His Holiness the Dalai Lama in Ladakh, India in color chakra, and I started to deeply study with Bob, I was very fortunate that had to have Bob Thurman there with me. So the empowerment counted, because he told us what was going to happen before we went in to the grounds to you know, hear His Holiness. And then he explained what happened right after. So we were having an understanding and at the same time receiving the teachings, and that just those similarities between what was happening there, in fact, I had really quite profound dreams. You know, the day before the initiation is all of my college chakra be che combs have had very powerful dreams, right before which are Yeah, if we have time. But, but anyway, so yeah, so that's when that and the SRI Vidya types and the ASA type that I was really practicing started to connect the dots and kind of adrionna helped me then to see what was happening in my personal practice of yoga nidra was, was maybe not too much different. And now I've jumped to after having studied you know, as much as I can with people like you that to add reading your books, of course, and, and it's, it's, it's really to me, they're not that much different. So it's an entryway. It's been an entryway, for sure. to working with the practice of Sleep and Dream Yoga, so the night yogas and even some of the clear light sleep, which is what I like to call, call the yoga nidra is that I do Clearlight yoga nidra and anyway, yeah, so that's,

that's, that's fantastic. It's really rich. And so most people listening will know what we're talking about here when we talk about yoga nidra but Nidra sounds good for sleep, right? So basically, we talk about sleep yoga, but it's interesting, right? And correct me if I'm wrong, Michelle, it's a little bit different from the classic ersel, luminosity yoga, sleep yoga, and for instance, the six yogas of Naropa. Right. So can you talk before we go to the to the deeper end of the pool, because obviously that's where you have just tremendous expertise and experience. Maybe talk to us a little bit about the your entry, more about your entry experiences with yoga nidra as liminal state experiences because often when I'm sharing what your what yoga nidra is, at least at entry levels, I equate it more with like liminal dreaming, exploration hypnagogic spaces so talk to us a little bit about that kind of entry level approach to yoga nidra before we go to the real deep end of the clear light,

all right, so Well, most of the yoga nidra if you just like gone to YouTube, and you you know you connect to yoga nidra relaxation practices, they're they're really going to be liminal practice. So I would say 99% of it is and and then so you know for me, well, I had the and that was really quite it's quite powerful practice because I used that. At the point that I had a brain injury and 2019 and I couldn't really sleep. You know, I was often just in that place because I couldn't go you know, really any deeper so that was how I would get rest. And then then that that started to move to when I started to get better at that and also starting to work with Dream Yoga practice more. Always in the morning when I would wake up. I would go back in especially if I wanted to kind of stay in the liminal state, I would just go back into yoga nidra and then try to catch the dream back again. So I would stay there I just learned to work with you know, if I was coming out, I'd go back in and use some of my techniques and yoga nidra and pop back into liminal and then see if I could you know recatch everything. So, yeah, so that's that the difference is the time, the time length that you're there because if you're only if, if you do a yoga nidra practice online, and it's about usually they're about sometimes 20 minutes, even quite short, 2030 minutes, that's all you're going to be in as liminal and that's just because of the the brainwaves. You really need to be 45 minutes to in to catch that delta and then have the possibility the delta waves to be that slow that you can go into more of the to the sleep state. And, and so the other thing is is where you rest your mind because depending on how they do the yoga nidra for instance, Richard Miller works a lot with opposing patterns. So your force like he's working on the physical body, you would be feeling say a common one is to feel the quality of heaviness in the body and then you focus on that for a while, and then you would shift to focusing on lightness and and that and then you would bring the two together. And that witness consciousness would then be able to see in the pouring together of opposing patterns, the witness consciousness would would reflect you know, it kind of reflects in that pause is an inability to hold a pose, you know, or the ability to hold opposing patterns, right, it just comes back. So, so that these let's, let's see, where I've just lost my train of thought. So we're back to

Well, I think one way we could talk about this, let me just let me just ping the question again. Yeah, no, no, it's basically the relationship of entry level. Yoga Nidra as liminal dreaming, eventually taking you all the way to the deep end of the pool with clear light. And so let me just pick something here that may be a benefit is that the more I explore this practice of yoga nidra it's kind of a multi valence practice which means it has a number of different iterations, expressions and then engagements we can use it in so many ways, each one of which has its own applicability, bandwidth and value. And so I think that's also very helpful because that's

where I was going. Yeah, because so it's like with Richard style, he's working with the opposing patterns, you're going back and forth. And you're and then it's it's really of a witness consciousness and it's connected to these various sheets of the body when you're working with like an Yasa. Practice. You're going around and you're placing, you know, whether whether it's Points of Light, or you're working with Montra you're placing those in various parts of the body. 61 points is classical. You can have you know, rotation of awareness, and then there's different depending on the type I use all of them but there's also types of yoga nidra that, that gets you to go through rotation of consciousness, and then place visuals and and I like to utilize those as entryway to work with Dream Yoga practice. But so all of those keep you in that sort of liminal state. But then when you want to go deeper, you have to be able to at some point and be there long enough to where the body gets relaxed and actually invited to go into a sleep state. So most of them keep you liminal by continuing to talk you through. So there's the person helping you the guide helping you or you know, of course I practice yoga nidra on my own, so you don't need that but a guide to do it, but if you you have a certain setup, rotation of consciousness, relax the body, get the body completely relaxed, and then the where it moves beyond beyond the liminal is when you can go into the heart. And or you could do throat if you want us to. But for me, I my focus is on the heart and then you just practice with in silence and that it takes at least do usually about 10 minutes 10 to 15 minutes of total silence and meditation where you start to access that state of sleep and the heart and rest awareness in the state of sleep. And sometimes for me, that's where I will, you know, focus on the blue light and the heart, the mantra and just go to sleep in my heart. And that's where you can start to notice of course, you can catch it through eight stages of dissolution that will even pop up there and, and catch clear light sleep. So but you have to be it could be that you're resting there for an hour before it happens. 90 minutes. to two hours, you know, so I utilized I access that after my brain injury because I couldn't sleep for three hours of work. So you know, it was it was that waking constantly. And then what I wanted to be able to put my body to sleep so I use yoga nidra as a way to put myself to sleep. And that's when I found that you could actually it was not so different from having, you know, beyond it was it was beyond liminal. It was indescribable but you were you were you could be there and in bliss and be asleep.

Sort of this was fantastic. Say a little bit more, if you would, when you talk about you're talking about doing the rotation or consciousness or rotation of awareness. And then what then what makes it a kind of a transition into Dream Yoga, or even sleep yoga. You use the phrase on you place visuals. And so I want you to elaborate on that. I would suspect you're talking about then concentrating either on the throat for Dream Yoga or the heart procedure yoga, and so it can you say a little bit more about the like the mantra that's associated with that. And

then so for instance, you would, you could go into the throat and you could actually see the pedals and on new Tada on our new Tada, you could you could actually see a seed syllable and just meditate there. So once the body is relaxed, then and I do these all the time, I actually expanded my yoga nidra practices to when I'm when I'm working with students on a familiarization retreat there. This is Dan again with visuals. I actually you know, because Bob and I teach college chakra retreat, familiarization retreats. So on those retreats students have when they're especially entry level they're still having a hard time you know, thinking about what color trucker is holding them in their 24 arms and you know, all of their, you know, Vendrell bells or did she come to Vanga and try to tip to cut Vanga all the way up. So I I started doing these, these yoga nidra as well I would put people out into you know, by going through a rotation of conscious getting the body very relaxed. And then in this is liminal to, of course, this practice is liminal, and then tell talking them through the mandala and even entering the doors and then now your color chakra and you have this and they come out of it remembering everything that they were holding. And so it's a fast way as you know from reading about yoga nidra from what it does from memory and and the benefits for liminal type you can use visuals like that. But then if you're using it for as a way to go kind of beyond and just sleep and dream. That's where get the body so relaxed, and then just meditate on that Lotus that seed syllable and then in silence and that meditation, go into your sleep or Dream Yoga practice. So your your, your it's actually countered to what most people do with yoga nidra which is not fall asleep. Yeah, but we're trying to do so. And for me it works but maybe I'm, I'm off my rocker.

Hardly, I mean, really, in my languaging Michelle, this would be also termed, again in a little bit deeper kind of intermediate relationship to yoga. Nidra is lucid sleep onset. In other words, you basically is you know, there's two ways to bring about acidity. That's the littlest you say dreams. There's two ways to bring it about you. We can either initiate lucidity within the dream that's called the dream initiated lucid dream or you can bring it with you that's called awakened. So this is more greasing the skids for them. More advanced way to basically maintain a thread of awareness consciousness through the witnessing stance, and basically bringing tucking that awareness into you into your mind as you go to sleep so that when you watch your dream arena, then of course it's lucid, you're bringing your awareness into that does that resonate with your

experience that does that very much does resonate? exactly it?

Perfect. So let's backpedal for just a second because some of our listeners may not be that familiar with like the context that the history of yoga nidra its relationship you know, like Buddhist, Hindu approaches, like do you have a sense of

Yeah, you know? I don't have I'm not the best person on the history of it in regards to the I think, I think I would say 10th 11th century Ma has to does is really you know, that time both that with the MaHA sitters, both of the, the Indian masters and end to end Tibetan masters as well, that moving into practice together. So I think it's around that time and from this point, that is definitely the neoss sub practice is, is at least it's even older than that. So I would, you know, my my feeling is that they've been doing it for a long time because when you're practicing right, we're in dark retreat. We're on we're on retreat where we're practicing. And then you you spend time lying down you know, it's it's a I think that we've been doing this in this way, formal way, placing mantra, and visualizing the, the mantra and going to sleep and dream like this, since, you know probably much before we get sick, of course, six yogas of Naropa and Goma and those ma that Maha sit up period. That's there's no Sleep and Dream Yoga as I'm sure that you had the other Himalayan masters doing the same thing, but they just called it different. So it's yoga nidra exactly. I don't know you know? But the history way back. That's not my thing. But that's totally

fine. So do you find yourself drawing more? Can you read expositions of this practice because it's not that overtly articulated or what led me to where? Where do you find your kind of textual and historical?

Yeah, I just see, see, that's I'm a practitioner. I'm a Yogini. So I'm finding it from memory and from intuitive knowledge. So that's why I can say, you know, I'm just not I'm really the not the one to go back into history and do all of the research and time and dates and who figured it out and all of that. It's just more about remembering, beautiful and knowing that this is, this is how, you know, I'm trying to figure out what my connection with the Tibetans is because certainly, you know, I came in to doing 25 years of hatha yoga and then I met Bob Thurman, and then it's just one after another. So I'm going to be teaching with CO retreat with kala Rinpoche lading and Google yoga manleigh. You Yeah, and the beginning of April and, and I'm friends with Ling Rinpoche now and I had audiences this holiness this year, you know, this just very strange. I don't know what's going on with all of it. I would say it's strange. It's pretty pretty well, it's very beautiful. And they do they do visit. And you know, there there's, it's very easy for me to lay my head in the Guru's lap and go to sleep. Yeah. Yeah, you know, very useful, like so it's remembering. I think we did it. Did it before. And that's where I'm getting it. I have to say, I'm kind of making it up as I go along. But it's not from out of nowhere. It's from it from an intuitive knowing. And so you have to practice a lot. You don't just, you know, you have to do it. So that's the other thing is I I've been practicing them, working with them. And from that, sharing it

so this is really nice, because, you know, the visor region once famously said the essence of spiritual practices remembrance. And that applies on so many different levels. And so the fact that you're actually calling on the inner lineage, the guru within I mean, you're drawing on that own innate wisdom on one level makes it really direct lineage transmission and more impactful. And so for people so let's, let's talk about this briefly. So So for people that are relatively new to this, so before we before we go off, and really take the deep dive for someone who's who's interested in learning about yoga nidra classically, what might you recommend for a beginner who really wants to explore this kind of liminal practice from a yoga nidra point of view? What's the best way for for someone to come into this sphere of practice?

Take my course that starts tomorrow night. And it can't come to Yeah, it we're gonna do three, five days. And so it's 100 100 hours, but of and it's all on, you know, on the teachable platform platform, but Right, so what I do is I introduce all of the different types, and so we you know, we look at the classical way, right, the classical way would be to work with a cautious layer of the body, layers, various sheets of the body. And so this way of working well, your physical body, your mental, your your pranic body, your mental body, your intuitive body and you're the anandamide, kosher the bliss body and, and then and the nun and all of those are considered to be illusory, right? The Maya cushions, so yoga nidra working on each one of those and the various types of yoga nidra does that do take us into liminal state, each system we explore. So I will teach for instance, the Richard Miller style where we work with the posing patterns, which is very, very good for all of those layers, but I particularly like it for the mental shift amount of Maya Kosha. So you can, you know, go back and forth and it's great for templates of belief too, that are stored in the Bianna Maya Kosha you know, the intuitive place that's that where we really want to, to open up to the booty that part of mine that creates the you know, that is our Buddha, our inner teacher that what's blocking that are templates of belief. And so then we do this, the Chara and deeper inquiry to go through that but the mental sheath is great for that because you can look at where you store hatred in your body. And then where you store store, you know love in or or joy and and these going back and forth giving sort of cues during the yoga nidra to work with these emotional triggers and bringing those up to look at and seeing that their energy, okay, so that would be one way and so so also we work with the the system of placing the jasa, 61 Points of Light and then allowing people to just rest in awareness and then sometimes moving off into deeper experiences and then the very common type that it's used, which I really love, which is a rotation of consciousness, and then using visuals that are said very quickly to also trigger it's very similar to Richard set in as in a sense Richard Miller's way of using opposing patterns to kind of bring up bubble this energy up and look at it and allow it to dissolve. But that uses quick images so they might be anything from a plate of cookies to the moon in water reflected in water to you know the earth scene from from above from space, you know, to a snake coiled three and a half times to a woman crying to a man on a on a sofa with his dog or you know, anything that kind of brings up people's memories and they're said quickly, and that is also wonderful. Practice. So yeah, going through those different different types. We teach those and teach the background to them. But in regards to formal courses, my friend, Rod Stryker, I used to assist rod he's got his power yoga nidra training as well. And that's a good introductory course. And goodness as far as other yoga nidra trainings, I think Richards you know, his really quite fantastic his iris program is still very, very good. And he's a scientist. So, you know, that would be another one that I'd recommend. And I think that for entry level, it's really excellent.

We had the opportunity at this point a couple years ago to have Richard on and yeah, he said, Yeah, a treasure trove of knowledge. Yeah, sort of thing. Right.

So can you say just a little bit more, and we're really intrigued by this rotation of consciousness thing you seem to hand out a little bit. You know, we only have so much time to get into the weeds here. But just see a little bit about that. How that actually works as a method technique in and of itself, what what the actual mechanics of that might actually entail.

Okay, so. So, you know, first of all, when we just do a straight body scan for people to connect with their body and relax the body, right? That's a classic quick thing that we can do feel your feet, feel or feel your palm. Feel the the forehead feel the Third Eye feel inside your mouth, etc. So you can do sort of how Richard works with rotation of consciousness. As he does it randomly. He'll he'll, it'll never be the same. Hop from here. From there. Move around and feel but but most of the the SRI Vidya tradition works with a very precise pattern. It's always the same. So you would do this and Yassa and that would rotate, rotate the consciousness in those particular points. Starting with the brow level, going to the throat, then to the right shoulder, elbow, wrist right thumb to index finger middle, you know excetera and then go back up to precise order. Another that I'm that I feel is the most and that's a fantastic 61 Points of Light is I practice it daily. You know this is just a perfect way to relax the body and prepare it then for then doing my sleep and dream yoga practices, you know, my night yoga practices. And that's when everybody can easily once they have that pattern. It's an excellent way to prepare to go into practices, especially if they need to unwind or they need healing or you know, so that's, that's fantastic for that. But then, the last that I love for getting people that are really tense is a rotation of consciousness that we just like to call them nicknamed the homunculus. But because it's kind of patterned off of that funny, funny thing that they used to think that we have a little man inside the brain, okay, so the homunculus way of doing things I love because it really gets people so, so deeply relaxed. In fact, most of them fall asleep. And and so you have to keep if you want them to stay liminal. You have to keep telling them do not fall asleep. Stay Awake and Aware. Do not fall asleep. Stay awake and aware. But that is also a precise pattern. And the rotation of consciousness would then start in the hand and move up the arm and back down and then go to the leg. So you would do right side of the body, left side of the body, and then go up to the head and down and front and back. So you're covering the entire body and a particular pattern and that's also easy to learn. And then you can do that on your own and it has very deep I'm not sure why. I I've been trying to figure this out, but that particular pattern just allows us to go into the deepest dressed. So I could do it for you. But then we you you drop out. Exactly. You could tell us you'd be offline.

We could definitely do Michelle is provide a link at the bottom where you have something like that where where people could actually be guided by you into the sort of thing because again, this Yeah, they'd love to do that. This stuff is so beautiful because it's a marvelous practice in and of itself. But it also provides us a really one way the first of the natural meditations because it provides the off ramp so to speak and answer these and so so is is we go deeper into it we become a little bit more familiar with it. I would suspect with you as with me, then the the depth start to naturally reveal themselves you realize Whoa, there's really this is a really wonderful multilayer your practice the maybe talk to us a little bit about how this made you suggested something about this earlier, but how this unfolded for you and your own practice, and then ways for the listener to be invited to explore how this can eventually take you all the way to clear like yoga to gristle sleeve yoga has its divine in the 60s.

Well, you know, first of all, I think that the yoga nidra is I wanted to talk a little bit and let people know that I also think it's just extraordinarily healing for the physical body. And one of the things that happened to me during my traumatic brain injury is you know, of course I again I couldn't sleep through the night and I had a the the sympathetic nervous system was dominating the cortisol was high and you know, the the, the pituitary was affected so I wasn't producing the hormone to keep me asleep. And so we do yoga need drugs to to rest and and that that was extraordinarily healing for from my my body. I don't think I would be where I'm at today, you know, just three years after that because I had to learn how to read again and balance of everything was was taken out so a lot of vestibular training and occupational therapy and speech therapy and yoga nidra really accelerated the healing. But right before the pandemic while it was at the pandemic start, I was still quite bad and going, you know, three or four times a week for therapy and still having seizures. And the pandemic hit and I fell down the stairs. I wasn't they weren't seeing me for therapy so I fell down and I landed on my shoulder and my knees, my left shoulder and my knees and one of my knees buckled back and I thought, Oh, I have a PCL injury for sure. The pain was extraordinary and the left shoulder was also swollen like crazy. couldn't lift my arm move it in any direction. I thought I'd certainly torn my rotator cuff. And I know enough you know as a yoga therapist, working with the what was happening so I started calling. I had my husband call, you know the doctors to try to see if I could get anybody to give me an MRI or but the whole city was shut down. There was no buddy that would take you and I called you know orthopedic surgeons, my first orthopedic surgeon. I was calling everybody all of the people that had been seen me at the hospital. And nobody would take the take the call event I'd leave messages nobody would call back. And I called my neurologist and he he called back about three weeks later, maybe three or four weeks later finally to make an appointment, but really, the pain was extraordinary. I had about a week of lying in bed and misery, you know, with ice and all of the different things I was trying to do to just get comfortable and I could not sleep. And so I finally one night was doing yoga nidra and I was asking, you know Buddhas and protectors and angels and everybody in within this yoga nidra and I placed the 61 points of light and and then at one point, I realized that I was sleeping and and all this light was pouring in and I was sleeping and light was moving into my body and all of these 61 points were lit up and they were it was like the stars above were connecting to the stars in the body. And there was just streams of light. And then I became lucid and then I became a return to sort of ordinary consciousness waking consciousness and I thought I fell asleep. How wonderful. I was sleeping. And then I thought, Wait, I don't have pain, like I did and then I started to move my arm and weave my leg. And it was completely well. So then when the neurologists called me, I said Dr. Chestnut, strangest when he asked me well, I hear you felt you fell again. This one is really bad and I'm sorry we couldn't get to etc and I said strangest thing happened. I think I had like this. All I could say to him was just like an angelic healing or something. And he said, that's all you can do right now. And he said Good for you. And he he just says fantastic. It's good for you. So so you know I'm not supposed to make claims like this right? I get in trouble with yoga Alliance. But I do think if you can really relax and and work with this practice that the type of healing benefits specialty work with classically and yoga nidra we reuse as we do you know in Buddhism, we work with the high spiritually guided bow and intention The sankalpa and, you know, we, of course, the bodhisattva vow is one of those we stayed on three times but we can also do this for the the other things, you know, intentions can be based on healing. It can be based on whatever it is, is needed. Well, I

think you're sharing I think you're sharing is really inspirational. Certainly is for me, can you save a shell or two? What do you then attribute the healing? I mean, where where do you think what what gave rise to the type of resolution with your body?

Where do you think they came from? I you know, this is a really this is a really good question. Andrew and I will have to say that I think some things you just you just don't know but I do. Because anything I say it's isn't it? In a way it doesn't give it justice but I would say you know, it's sort of I mean, I do from do very much feel connected to Buddhas and protectors and the, the universal energy, the clear light energy. So it's, it's there for us to draw Yeah, yeah. Okay, so it's there. We have this infinite energy that that everything is and in this is the the Infinite Energy of, of immeasurable love and, and it's the infinite energy it's, it's yes, it's clear light energy. So we can draw upon it. And it can bring healing and we just have to open ourselves up to it. Yeah. So this is why I think it's helpful sometimes with people that have come to do yoga nidra workshops, if you're just taking yoga nidra at medlab. We do some usually at night, the last session, and they'll say I've been meditating for no 25 years, and I've never had a samadhi experience before. I'm very devoted, devoted to my practice, and I daily prep, you know, have a daily practice that I had this happen, you know, I had this experience. So here tonight, and I think it's because people can they really just finally let go. And they're held in that container. And that's how it happens. Yeah, I

think if, if I might just put forth a possible conjecture of what this could be what I when I come on to this, and I think it's really, really beautiful resonates more and more with what I'm talking about these days is, you know, we tend in the West to have this default thing to the context being physical material and then kind of spiritual thing is held within that are at best, the sidebar, but I think what I hear when I see this, here, this experience for me and Michelle, is that it points to the power of the heart mind. Yeah, it points to the foundational I don't want to use the word supremacy because that's not the right word. But the extraordinary power of opening to that type of healing energy, and that in a very real way, because it is it actually is more foundational, it's right, no, heart, mind, spirit, whatever mind consciousness doesn't arise from matter. I mean, it's completely backwards. And so when we touch into something, something that's actually more foundational didn't even matter itself. I knew the body. And I think because it is so foundational, I would conjecture, that that's where perhaps the healing comes from because you're opening touching into something upon which again, with a Kosha this totally makes sense. Right? Right. That is an expression of this more foundational basis. And so I think these types of short stories are really important because they're inspirational for people. It's like, okay, oh, you know, my life is so busy. Why should I bother? I often playfully say when we when people work with a nocturnal meditations, that's where ego puts his big. Do Not Disturb sign up, right? Now. You can riles me from my psychospiritual slumber during the day. But you know, do not touch me when I sleep. Right? And so, if we have a deeper understanding of these, these, this power and your sharing of it, which is really very beautiful, then it certainly inspires me. It's like okay, you know, this is why maybe worth exploring something like this, developing some facility. Because when you're working with something so, so foundational, again, we started with you working with the roots of your experience, and the other coaches about yourself and naturally kind of realign or heal because it's so foundational on the clear light, everything comes from the color light is an expression of the color light is when you tap into it. Whoa, look what happened healing, so to speak. Miraculous, right?

Yes. Yes. Very much. So. I think that's the thing too, with you know, with with those classic way. So 11 century scripture. Tripura, three hacia talks about sankalpa. And, and it says that some culpa or this intention, this spiritually guided intention, which is based on the pooterish arc does right the the produce shall man's for desires or potential. And the first being Dharma, you know, to really know their dharma and the second arta you know, that had to have the means to do that. And the third is kama on the pleasure the art you and then last is Moksha liberation, right. But so in then this is it's speaks about the Purusha art does, and then that you set your son culpa your intention based on one of those, whatever is needed at that time. So if you don't know what your why you're here, what's your life purposes, you know what your mission is? Then then that's can be the that's the focus, but if you have that maybe you don't have you know, you're an artist but you don't have the means. To focus on the art so then you might make your sankalpa around the auditor, then meet the means to bring that in. Maybe you have a bad but you need more. You don't want connection, relationship pleasure all those two middle ones are kind of controversial, of course, but then the last one, you know, the moksha, liberation, the freedom or the enlightenment. And this one is, of course, we're we're, you know, our territory as the Buddhist practitioners but So, this scripture then then, you know, says that you have to if you're going to have success with your son call, but you based make one based on one of those. But then if you're going to have success with it, it needs to be free of any doubt free from the stains of doubt. AB absolutely free from the US sustains, you know, and this is a thing that I find, like when you say going back down to the heart mind, you know, because so many of us really, were practicing but then we don't really believe that it's possible even to be liberated in one lifetime. But I really do. And I've seen that it's that if this yogini can have the changes and things happen from a place of great suffering and real trauma as a child, to now you know, having a joyous life, and helping others and, you know, being at peace and, and content and then having the great blessing of this human life and being exposed to you know, the Buddhist teachings as well. And this evil Nate, full Noble Path, Noble Eightfold Path, and you know, it's just a treasure. So, you know, I just, I really believe that we can, if we all use the mind, this great mind if we can become really truly free of the obscurations you know, the, and then be free of any doubt, that we can change things that we can transform that we can use this color light energy, we could save our planet. We have the brilliant people here. You know, we we don't have to see it all go down. But so many people I know are really just really think it's impossible. And that so I think that that's something I liked. I just say to that what you you sparked that for me by saying coming back down to that essential and heartline and that there in that space? Anything is possible. We all sit and then we can start to realize that yeah, I was completely surrendered then I didn't have any other options. So it was such just a point of like complete letting go into it. And I had a friend as a yoga student, very early on, when I was teaching seriously and up to yogi, and she practiced at the Shambala center, but she had pancreatic cancer. And it was stage four and they finally she was a mom and had a couple of twin children four years old, and another daughter who was seven and she asked her family if it would be okay if she went to Colorado and spend time with the sock yarn. Yeah, yeah. And he was there and do a month retreat with him. And she said goodbye to her family that she would die there because it was really bad. She didn't have very much time. And she had been through this for years and had gone in remission and that was back in a serious way. So she went and she let go. She said her goodbyes. When she came back she didn't work cancer. And people flipped around or they thought she was you know, they got scared of being in her presence. Because it was just so miraculous. But I think that part of letting go so again, you know, back to yoga nidra I think it's just a great all around practice to help us relax. To help us let go to help us get out of stress, to help to trust that the the more we let go the more we are supported. We when we just you know even sometimes I think with my vagina practice there's so much ritual and things that I have to do you know, and keep my Samaya and everything and and so then I and then going back into yoga nidra makes it a little easier than to pop in.

You know, so fantastic. It was really inspirational. Not only the story of the woman who had the healing, but also where this has taken you and what what is it has accomplished and released you from in your own lifetime. I mean, it's really fantastic.

I mean, really, we all have this. We're humans. That's it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And

you know, it's really interesting. We're often one of the things that reflect your Michelle is, you know, there's so many different levels of fear that we all have, but I think on one level, I think on one level, we're we're afraid of our own power on one level, and therefore that's where the doubt comes in. We actually doubt that we are our Ragini so we have to fake it which is great. This is what the practice are for we fake it we fake the in college chakra that's beautiful. But we were of two minds literally doubt and so the more I hear these sorts of things, the more it brings about the ZG this confidence that that within that that you know again, tying it back in essence to spiritual practices. Remember, it's we are the Buddha, we are the deity and we forget and so when we open open open, relax, relax, relax, which is what this marvelous practice of yoga nidra does. Eventually Yes, on a provisional level, it relaxes the body in this conventional healing. way. But more fundamentally, it'll allow you to relax into the nature of mind reality itself, the clear light mind. And then from there again, then we have these miraculous powers because we are those powers and so the more we have this right view that don't be afraid of your power, don't be afraid to shine. You just have to release get out of the way let go and this radiant handling light not only will cure you but in this dark age will then radiate I can see it in your very presence, shines forth and then helps us in this Kali Yuga you know helps the world right now. So yeah, that's the other thing to always bear in mind. We're not just doing this for ourselves, right? We're doing it for the benefit of others. And for this world is in such need.

Whilst definitely this is and this this is why, you know, Bob and I started to do this volunteer yoga school, because one of the things that that is so important to us is that this altruistic intention bodhichitta and this spirit of enlightenment, that we we aren't just practicing for ourselves and that we are great, powerful beings and with our presence, you know, with the Buddha's breath, and just being in the presence of of, you know, that we will have the tools to help others and that we are these powerful beings and we'll be able to make sure so yeah, I think this goal vehicle that's that was so extraordinary for me because when I was practicing Sri Vidya before I even knew that was I was just it was just the beginning of it. And I didn't have explanation yet about what was happening. I didn't understand deity yoga, and I was chanting the Lalita sahasranama and disappeared. And and when I came back, I realize or I saw myself as not my ordinary self. I was something else than it was like a sort of female presence energy, a goddess type of energy. Something there and then my Judeo Christian upbringing came in and said, Who the hell do you think you are? And at that point, it collapsed and I was miserable. And then I had horrible fevers for a few days, and I gave up that practice. I had no idea that that was then then later you know you have you go in and do go to practice the gold vehicle and you're there creating yourself as the deity and only luck. Lucky if you ever do that, but you can you know, you can do it if you keep again getting out of the waist. We're practicing being that but then sometimes not knowing. Yeah, I would love to arise this bunch of geaney like that spontaneously, but, but

just this, just this little clip came to mind. I think it was WC Fields. I'm not sure. Again, I'll take wisdom wherever I can get it. Where he said it's not what they call you. It's what you answer to. Oh, so and so. You know, they call you provisionally Michelle, can you answer that? But no, you're really all right. You really call it soccer. All right. And so that to me this this is the exactly yeah, the Deaf destroyer. So this is really the really beautiful technique. of divine pride that in again, it is another criticism to the Abrahamic traditions. And they're interesting way of looking at original sin, that sort of thing. Well, these Western traditions talk about original purity, original divinity, original goodness, basic goodness. And so understanding this, we we have to cut ourselves a little bit of slack in the Western world. I remember Trungpa Rinpoche said something very beautiful along these lines, where somebody was talking to him about his his study of Buddhism when he was a young child in Tibet, and he said something really, really lovely. He said, You know, you have to realize how lucky I was here I am I'm in a culture, a country and a culture that is so steeped in the Dharma is like everybody's living breathing the Dharma. He said, For me, it was easy. And he didn't say directly so I'm putting words in his mouth, but he said, give yourself a little bit of a break. It's not that easy in the west where we're brought up you know this this, this Inculturation of the Abrahamic traditions has had a massive, insidious deleterious effect on our culture in this poverty mentality. And so therefore, when we hear these things, I mean, what you say like who do you think you are? That's fantastic, right? Well, you remember you know, I am whatever the deity so the practice of ride and then guess what, when you when you settle into reality, then that that in itself is cured there right. From that, then you get these so called miraculous cures, because you're in resonance with what's really happening. So, Michelle, this

really happened. Yeah, great. Andrew.

So as we start to close up, tell us a little bit. You mentioned just a few things about this amazing program that you and Professor Thurman are doing. And people who are listening know how much I adore him. I mean to see amazing individual so you and Bob are engaged in this remarkable you yoga curriculum. Talk to us a little bit about that and how people can learn about it. The Raja Yoga program will obviously attach links and stuff to that. But people really need to know about what you and Bob are doing here. It's remarkable.

Yeah, so So Bob Thurman, you know, he was he was my teacher. And I started to teach something called Buddha and the yogi's with him, and that was the set that he had started that with my teacher of Hatha Yoga, Richard Freeman, and John Campbell. And they were looking at you know, where Buddhism and, and Hatha Yoga met and sharing ideas about it. And so then I came in, he asked me to come in and fill John's place and then we loved working together. And we loved debating about things like 2d art and clear light. And, and then he, he said, Were you do a school for me, and it started out to just be a 300 hour yoga Alliance teacher training, which he had always wanted to have the yogi's there at Menlo. But then he had a dream after we started doing that he had this dream that out of the windows of Tibet House us in New York City. There were all these Yogi's hanging out and just it was so many Yogi's crammed in the room that they were you know, flowing into the streets and filled Tibet House was filled with Yogi's and and he said I think that we need to do you know, expand this and take Vodder yoga around the world and help his holiness with his fourth aim, that you know, been to bring back vegetariana that was removed from India, in a sense, with the the invasion of, you know, the Islamic Yeah, yeah. So he, he ended up you know, say, asking me to do this school, which we have now started a 300 hour training, but now it's really taking off and people want us to do more programs, including, we would like to have Andrew HolidayCheck and his team, head up the sleep and dream division. Sleep department, the sleep department anyway. So you know, boundary yoga is it's the intention is to to bring in the teachings of the Buddha and vagina into the already established around the world popular yoga studios, right and not to diminish vagina. But to actually educate and be able to have it be an entryway level for just people everywhere. You know, to experience this, these teachings and, you know, we believe in this kind of complex, globalized world that that asks for it, you know, democratic access to what ah, you know, the His Holiness, the Dalai Lama calls open heartedness, right. This equates to a development of enlightenment, through the three practices available to everyone, which is the mutual tolerance, transcendence of ideological and institutional conventions, and then just raising general kindness and empathy and compassion amongst all different kinds of people. And so, you know, giving, giving people this opportunity to develop that to cultivate those things and also bring in sort of the three principles of the path into the yoga center, and ethics been a big part of voluntary yoga as well. Because from seeing both on and in all of the traditions, so having ethical training for yoga teachers, and and that that's is one of our big intentions as well also introducing people to Bardo and how to wear how the the yogi and the householders can understand the dyeing process. Right. And so, it's been successful because there are so many people out there that are practicing hatha yoga are ready and that are also practicing Buddhism. And they are yoga, many of them yoga teachers that are wanting to figure out how do I bring these two together? And how do I share with the general public, these teachings? And so it's, it's become a way for us for people, you know, to share with teachers how to do that and bring to them the long rim in sort of a nine month training program. And that can then be expanded on to four year training and ongoing so we're, we're, you know, starting with just to a 300 hour training, but it's it's moving to we hope before your curriculum, as well.

So Wow. That's amazing. I mean, how inspirational is that? Well, we'll definitely look at I'm sorry, you

Yeah, we just it's just it's it's kind of up leveling, you know, it's up leveling the the the current way that yoga has taught in yoga studios to bring up the whole psychological and well being

in a wonderful kind of cross cross pollination between these traditions, right, they have so much That's right. And then tantric way you bringing and working with both body and mind in a really skillful way. It's fantastic and I can't imagine anybody better than you to

see, I see I see you as the deity right? I have

Well, that's it. That's it that that that's that's it, Andrew, that's the only way it's possible. And I see you as now which day or two you're seeing me right now is this last year 2020 was a very interesting year. Because my father died in October, and it was the day after I had audience with His Holiness that was actually flying back. And I also saw like Rinpoche who was the first first to give me white Tara for years before and who had blessed my Mala back then and I thought of every day, and for some reason, I had not used that white Wallace since you know that time, but then in the beginning of 2020, I started I had the opportunity to have the obvious chicken for Yamantaka and then started studying it and then Bob gave me teachings and many wonderful things happen. And I did my my room and I did had my fire puja on the Scorpio eclipse that happened. It was the lunar eclipse Bob and I did a project is backyard in May of 2022. My father died on the the Scorpio solar eclipse that happened six months later. Now, the amazing thing about this is that I started to see myself even though you know chakras Kembara and Kalachakra not drinking and those were my main practices. But then this year Yamantaka became my my practice and I would walk around to see myself with all those legs and my giant phallus and the street is this and but the interesting thing is that when I the day that I was doing the fire puja, I picked up the white Mala, and that Ling Rinpoche had had blessed and I started to use that from then on. And I Bob said, Oh well, you know that the reason is because he is the one that is that lineage holder for Yamantaka. And I had a very special connection with him already. I knew that I did. So then in Dharmasala, I saw him four different times randomly the last time an hour before I was going to leave in the forest. And I was on a walk going up before I had to get on this long plane and he ran into me walking down the forest path the other way and he said again, and I said he said what are you leaving, you know? There was like, like he had seen a an apparition or so then. Then the then I find out two days later that my father has passed away. And the amazing thing the culmination of this story is that I was able to then WhatsApp to his attendant, and they did the Bardo, for my father. And so that whole year of doing the father Tantra learning my first father Tantra and it being Yamantaka that that lived the one the Buddha that liberates us from death and, and then having it having this special empowerment by the one that that holds the lineage was quite something and I have to say pure magic. Exactly. No, I believe in it. And I see you as that too.

So thank you. I mean, these stories are just, they're fantastic. Thank you so much for your courage and generosity and sharing them really is just fantastic. And so

thank you, Andrew. Thanks for having me on. Oh, it's such a delight to be lackey today but

I want to introduce you to our community we many people have been hearing about you and I've had the great pleasure to get to know you a little bit and even more so after our conversation together so deep our gratitude for your time with us for everything that you're doing. The budget of your program is just off the charts and with you and and Bob at the helm. Oh my gosh, I mean, like you know, it's,

it's fun. I will send you some yoga dress for your for your baby great immunity and a few different types for them to try. So we'll understand what I was trying to communicate.

Just like with any practice, it's really only when you engage in it and do it then kind of starting to click for you. You know, it's sometimes difficult to describe these things. So if they have the opportunity to actually explore it on their own. They'll see what the magic behind

this. That's where it is. Then you understand that's where it comes from.

Michelle, really big, big big bow gratitude. Thank you so much for taking the time.

Thank you and until next time, maybe it's a Tibet House us scholar.

There are a memo again this summer so all the best to you and for next conversation.

Okay, thank you.