I've noticed that you've got this awesome energy to you is this like 24?/7?
So it's funny, because I will tell you that I find myself adaptable in so many things. And when I do any of those personality tests, right, your MBTIs or color wheels, everything, I'm fairly down the middle, I always felt like I would be great at debate club, because I could argue either side. But the one thing that is absolutely without question off the charts is extraversion for me. So this is pretty much all the time. It's, I read somewhere that the alternative to not being like this is no good. And so I find that this is a perpetual state for me.
So by the time that you hit the pillow, do you just fall right asleep?
No, that's really funny. I have to certainly like work to unwind. So there is reading and there's meditation, and there are crosswords to just get my mind to like, shut down a little bit, because it just keeps going.
And what about the not only just the energy? But is it? Are you an optimist? Are you the eternal optimist?
I would say, Yes, I had a leader one time describes me as restless soul. And I took that as a compliment. I think, listen, we'll talk about this. But they're this idea of change and moving forward. And kind of this new way forward that we'll talk about, I think this idea of eternal optimism is really important in what's going to happen in the world of work in the world of HR in the world of change, and in the world that we're going into post pandemic. So I think that this is all a good foundation to start from
I like that. So you're all about just embracing the change, because, again, you can't really, you can't almost like if you can't beat them, join them?
I would say, Yeah, I love this photo, I saw one time and it said, Don't look back, you're not going in that direction. And that's just never been a default setting that I've had kind of what happened, bring with you, what you loved about those experiences, and everything else stays behind. And so that's kind of how I operate in my life. And in my work.
that's your default? you've always been like this, or is this something that you've trained yourself to do? And the reason I ask is because, I mean, I know many of people that go to therapy to be able to get to where you are at?
Well, I moved around a lot as a kid. And I was in several different schools. And I think it was a learned survival mechanism, right? Imagine going into a new school and kindergarten and then again in third grade, and then again, in fifth grade. And then again, in eighth grade, you really have to find that balance so that you don't miss things so much that you paralyze and how do you think about opportunity, and optimistically about the people that you're going to need and the friendships that you want to make? And so I think that that might have had something to do with it.
So what were some of the other takeaways from having moved around through all these years? What were some of the really good learning things that you took from this the skills that you acquired? And what is it that you could share with other people who might be you know, a lot of the people that are listening to this show, these are other executives in HR. And sometimes you get, you find out that there's this opportunity in Singapore, and you got to move and one of the biggest holdbacks that people have with taking these kinds of opportunities is do we uproot the family? So I think that there's a lot of value in your perspective having moved around, that you could share.
Yeah, so in terms of that, I think, and I think about this, obviously, I was a child moving. One is this is absolutely the case. Right? All things being equal, kids are super resilient. They're going to adapt if you give them the space to. And I would say that that actually mirrors the parent, the executive, the listeners experience too. one of the takeaways for me, both as a kid moving around, and as an executive who's pretty successfully been able to change industries, if you have to take the time to learn your environment, right, you have to take the time to understand values and differences. For me, we were moving back and forth between Puerto Rico and the United States. And we did that a few times. And really having an open mind that it's not the same everywhere. I always love kind of what it's a paraphrase of Marshall Goldsmith, that idea of what got you here won't get you there. But you need to understand that success Won't you can't replicate success by using the same tools every single time. Right? And so how do you find new tools? How do you listen, to learn, I think is a really critical thing. And this idea of relocating and moving, it's so much bigger than that, right? You have to make sure that values are aligned that opportunity is that you're playing the long game with something like that. But I would say to the notion of keeping a very, very open mind, because you're the one who's going to have to make this successful for you. Nobody's going to do that for you. I think that's probably one of my biggest takeaways.
Yeah, it's a big takeaway.
Listen, that also, and we'll probably talk about this, too. But this goes into this notion of how do we talk about development for employees differently now in this new way forward? Right. And I've been saying for a while, and other people have to that you are the captain of your own ship.
You know, what do you you know, how do you kind of push this down, even though you're saying it's on them, but you still need to kind of get this message pushed down to them as like a reminder, how do you go about doing that?
So I think one of the things that's going to change very much in organizations is and you've spoken about this to other folks, right, this notion of re skilling and upskilling, we're not we are going to find ourselves with out the talent to buy. And so how do we take the folks that we have and have them then build the skill sets that we're going to need going forward? Right. And I think that one of those things is that we're not going to be able to design all the learning curriculum that we need in our companies, and our L&D teams are not going to be able to address all of those needs. And so then you're going to have to partner with people in the outside. And so I think that's really critical. And you're also then going to have to start the change process for your employees to understand that self service isn't just about finding their paychecks for their w2 anymore, they're going to have to almost look at cafeteria plans of learning. So the same notions that we have brought into our HRIS built in our open enrollment programs. How do we actually think about that in terms of learning and development? And I think that's going to be one of the biggest things that HR leaders and corporate executives, all leadership teams are going to have to really think about of where and how do we give employees immediate access to the tools that they need? How do we partner with different organizations? How do we partner with MOOCs? How do we partner with companies that we might have never heard of like next big idea, or companies that we have heard of like you to me, and give people maps as to what they should be doing in a self paced way? I think that's one thing. I think that the other thing that really changes behavior is incentive. And I've been thinking about this for a long time after speaking to a friend who does work in this area. And it's this notion of we compensate people based on successful for the most part completion of a project. Well, what if we started paying people for successful Knowledge Building and skill set development, right? So in order to be considered for a promotion, or even a lateral move, right, you just did a podcast around job switching? Well, what if I want to switch in the same organization? What if I want to move from HR to operations or business development? How does the organization give me a map into what I need to learn? And what skills are looking for? And how do they make that available to me, so that I can build up that arsenal? I think those are the ways that we need to start thinking about how we build robust teams, longer tenures and more successful companies.
Wow. So are you thinking like, almost gamifying like, like how the learning is done? gamifying. But But tying that to compensation? is as like what one piece of what you talked about, and then it sounds like is that right?
I think that that absolutely is a way of thinking about this in one of the startups that I was at one of the things that we had been kind of testing and building it was kind of in a beta was this notion of Okay, well, for product for product roles, what skill sets do we need? And, and really thinking through the traditional hard skills for that role, right design thinking, change management, customer insight, all the things that we would want someone to be to excel at. And then also, the so called soft skills, which I would actually say are the hard skills today. Right? So in order for someone to keep moving and get comped at the levels that they would like, how well do they know xy and z? Do they really understand what leadership is about? Have they taken our offerings around that? And that then starts to create different opportunities in my mind, the way that I see it is, it's always blows my mind that LinkedIn knows more about my employees than I do, right? And so how do I start to build up these skill sets and a database, right, so now I've taken a class on strategy, right. And I was able to do that, because the company gave me access to Coursera. And I signed up through UVA, and I took this strategy class. And when I'm done, I post my grade. And the company knows that I've successfully pass it, I'm probably proficient in it, they have all the information on it. And they're able to access all employees and their profiles. And so when they're looking for a job, instead of the default being, I'm going to go post this on my company website is I'm going to go fishing inside, because I know what people are really good at. And I know what they're building up to.
I think that's such a great idea that's keeping, it's going to be phenomenal for internal mobility, as I'm sure you know, or can appreciate a lot of people going through a job searche is so timing is a job in and of itself. And if you and as an organization, you've already developed, you've hired you've been on boarded there, people who build certain social capital, you don't want to lose that to another organization. So what you're suggesting, train them internally, give them lots of tools, and then kind of track that data track that information on what it is that they're pursuing. I guess some of it will, obviously they'll need to take because maybe it's a project that they're working on. But it might just be some of their own internal curiosity. And you want to kind of take advantage of what people are good at. And their strengths are kind of like the Drucker double down on your strengths and surround other people with your weaknesses. So you're saying, hey, let's see what people are taking, how are they bettering themselves? And then what can we do? How can we access and leverage and exploit their interests, passions and what they're really good at? Is that accurate?
I think that's absolutely right. And listen, people like talking about themselves. So it's so much of what's happening with the employee experience has to be around the technology and the ease of access and kind of delightful experience. And it's not my favorite word, but that we give somebody if I'm using certain tools in my life, the experience internally at my company needs to be the same or better, right? And people are very used to doing everything online and giving folks information. So imagine if we gave them a platform, where, you know, and by the way on your phone, and instead of saying go to workday and go to you know, this performance tool and go to this applicant tracking system and go, right, we have one place where they know that everything about their job is right there. But the most important thing is what do you want to do? It's almost like a with them tool, with the employees constantly asking us what's in it for me, what are you doing for me company? And this is a way for us to say okay, we can have that conversation. But we need a little bit something from you. First, what are you great at? Do you speak Spanish? Because guess what? We're opening an office in Mexico. Oh, my God, all of a sudden, here are 179 people who speak Spanish. That's something right. And so I think that we continuously ask employees for information, but never quite get to the point where they see what's in it for them. I'm saying we have to do a much better job of that.
That's interesting. And what kind of person would facilitate Is there a department that you envision facilitating this because this is a lot of work? Or is it just again, something else that kind of falls under your... is something that you would do is the chief people officer. I think that Harvard Business Review had a super interesting article early this year about the pandemic and I really do like this analogy that 2008 did for CFOs, what 2020 is going to do for CHROs? And how do we think about our job very differently? And kind of what are those jobs of the future in human resources? And so I don't know, there are a bunch of different things that we need to be thinking about, right? The more progressive companies are already thinking about heads of wellness in an organization, which is a very different thing than your head of benefits and compensation. And you have, in the article that HBR put out, they had a really interesting notion around a human and machine teaming manager. Right. So how do you actually start to make the people connections to the technology connections, and this could fall into something like that they had this notion of gig economy managers, and in one of my companies, I was very much pushing us to think about that, because so many of the roles that we had full time employees in or salaried employees or people on our payroll, were actually seasonal jobs that came and went based on on the product that the company was putting out. And it was a very seasonal type of relationship. So why did we need to have these people on our payroll 12 months out of the year. And so I think that there's so much around how we think about technology, the different types of roles and profiles, that HR leaders have to be thinking about going forward. Right? If you're thinking about your org, in your traditional verticals, and those are four for some companies, maybe five, recruiting, learning comp, maybe now you have analytics, but there's so much more to be thinking about in terms of diversity, and bias, and work from home, right? Are we thinking about a work from home facilitator. Anyway, all of these types of roles, then imagine if you had that repository of information on your employees, and the different types of decisions that you could make for your company. And I love saying this, because I believe it, which is every people decision is a business decision, there is almost nothing, that you decide about an individual in your department in your division or in your company that doesn't trickle down into having a business impact. And but we make all of these decisions with so little information, we still use that gut feeling or they just didn't deliver on this one thing, or I haven't talked to them for six months, but I don't think they're performing. So let's move them out, or let's move them over. And yet we don't use data for those decisions in the same way that we use data for all other business decisions.
Wow. All right. Oh, my gosh, there's a lot that we would have to unpack. Right there. But that's a great quote. So every people decision is a business decision. It's true. I wholeheartedly agree with that. Where did this come from? You're very passionate about this, you obviously seem very well read on this. Was there a certain experience that you had that kind of gave you this aha moment? Or is this a culmination of experiences that you had with different organizations as well as just kind of reading and being on the cutting edge of technology?
So I read a lot, and I spend a lot of time looking at what other companies are doing. And I think that you could, you can read so much into things like that. I mean, there was a, I want to say recent, but not so recent, 20 years ago, she he made a leadership change, that didn't ultimately really work out for them. And yet they stayed in that leadership team construct for many, many, many, many, many years without making a change. That was a that had a direct business impact on that organization. And so that's one example out of hundreds out there. I think it more closer to home, you see it with a company like theranos, right? Where people aren't interrogating reality. They're not I love to say this about the head of HR, the head of HR needs to be asking provocative questions, not for the sake of provocation, but for the sake of moving the business forward with positive momentum. And for me personally, I would say that, after studying these examples and seeing them happen and repeat themselves, then I saw it up close and personal in one of my organizations and our inability to move quickly, in one of those instances absolutely had a negative impact on our business. And it wasn't the case of none making a decision on pricing or product, or customer service or marketing, it was absolutely the case that we didn't make a decision around people. And it had a negative impact on us. And so, for me, one of the most important things, when I think about the role of the HR leader is does this person have the ability to influence those decisions in which leaders find themselves just so uncomfortable, and sometimes incapable of making the call? It's a terrible thing, you feel bad when you have two people out. But look at the alternative, I would say the alternative is blockbuster. Whereas if you look at Netflix, right, the CEO of Netflix has publicly said, when he feels that people need to get bent or move on, he does it. And you see that over and over and over again, in how they have been able to either promote or bring in the talent that they need for the stage that they're in, as opposed to rely on the talent that they had that got them to where they work. And I think that's a really important lesson to take.
And what is their loyalty? Is it? Is it to move on and kind of cut bait with them? Or just to move them into a different role?
I think it's it depends on your company, right? depends on where you are, depends on if there's a role for them. I've seen it. I've seen it both ways where people have been either moved into a new role and been successful, or whether it just wasn't,
I get a question for you, you've been able to transition? How have you into multiple industries, and most people can't do that. So getting back to the Netflix person say they're working for Netflix, and maybe they're they've outgrown their role, and they decided that they don't want them to stay within that medium. How would you recommend being able to switch industries? Why do you think that what is it that you've done that's afforded you the ability to switch industries, not easy to do?
It's not easy to do. And there's, by the way, the case to be made for both, I sometimes look kind of wistfully at people who've been able to stay in their same field or industry and how their careers have grown. And there's something important about being well versed in something and being a specialist in that way. I've always thought of myself as a generalist, like technically an HR generalist, but also a much wider thinker, right? There's, there's just kind of more horizontal knowledge that I have been able to capture and use successfully then Sabre. And there's this great book about generalism, I got an I'm forgetting the title of it, but it will come to me that I really loved and here's what I would say, made me has made me successful in my ability to move through multiple industries. One is, I love the word agile, because I think that what that connotes, is you bring with you a certain amount of curiosity, and you're open minded. But for me, it's been really two things that get wrapped up in that, which is, I really fundamentally believe that objective, yet empathetic leadership is critical. And I'm really good at helping people get there, right. The other is, I'm very interested in a p&l. So when I get to a company, I'm going to sit down with their finance team. And I'm going to say, walk me through every nook and cranny of this document. And then I want you to tell me how a competitor can actually bring a stamp? Where are we most vulnerable? What's going to be? What is our Achilles heel, tell me how the company gets brought down. So that I have an idea of how to start to reinforce that from the vertical that I'm expert in. And so so I would say those are probably the two things that have really been able to help me navigate from Sports Management and book publishing newspapers and and digital media, and retail and FinTech. And so those two things for me have been the most important.
Well, and what about your relationships? I mean, you i, you and I were referred by a great person in kind danielda libro, who spoke highly of you. Obviously, I concur. And we also know a bunch of other people in kind that which, by the way, we've not had the chance to talk about yet when I'm looking forward to doing but you obviously have built good relationships and even just through our conversations, whether you're cognizant that you're doing it or not, you're a great connector, just like as we were talking about chief before and looking to introduce people I mean, that's an amazing skill set that that's something that I work with people. And it's a learned skill set. That takes a little bit of time. But it's something that you're it's very, I don't know if it's natural to you, or if it's something that you've worked on. And I'd love to know, just your overall feelings on it, what kind of what you've done, how important it is to you, and what advice that you have. So I just threw a lot at you.
So I love that idea of connecting, I think, and I just love to do it, it was not something learned it just to me, it makes a lot of sense if I know Adam, and I'm part of this group called sheep. And I think that she is going to get a ton of value from Adam and vice versa, I'm going to absolutely make that connection. There's the only thing in it for me is, hey, maybe something fun comes out of this. And then two people that I know or an order that I know and a person that I know, get value out of it. I think that the founder of LinkedIn said once that LinkedIn isn't about what you can get from it. It's about what you can give to it. And that's a paraphrase, obviously. And that really stuck with me, and I use LinkedIn very much in that. LinkedIn to me is, Who can I help today? What pieces on the chessboard? Can I move around to make somebody more successful or to open a door or open a window or whatever it might be. And that, to me is a it's just a really important piece of kind of being a good corporate citizen here. Here's probably one of the reasons why this is important to me. I remember very early on in my HR career, people didn't share anything, right? Like, everything that a company did was just so proprietary and secret. And I thought, Oh, my God, like, for the most part, like how you're training your folks on say, management, one on one or leadership, like, none of that is rocket science. No one has invented a new, there's no Rosetta Stone here. Like it's all pretty much the same with different coloration. And the fact that you will share with me is frustrating, and frankly, a little silly. And so I wanted to escape that. And I wanted to start to make my way through how do you open this up? And how do you open it up more, you want to see my strategy document and how I set it up, I'm happy to do that you want to see my HR philosophy and how I'm happy to do that. And so I share this information because I think ultimately the collective is stronger. And by the way, somebody that I've shared this to, might someday refer an incredible person for me to work with, for to add to my team, right. So I think that there's a long game to this, that's obvious, but it's not the end result, right, the end result is giving, as opposed to getting. And I think that's important, I think I get a lot of value. I've said this in the beginning, I'm extremely extroverted. And so I get a lot of just personal value from making those connections and having people meet and collaborate in ways that might not have been open to them. And relationships are really important. I think people know this, but I don't know how many people actually sit down and very systematically try and figure out what their values are right, especially for bosses, as leaders in HR, we're so consumed with the values of our company, and do I live by those, and can I sell this into the organization. But when was the last time you actually sat down and thought about your own personal values. And I do this probably every, I don't know, three or four years and take stock of where I am in several parts of my life, career and relationships and spirituality in my family, and pleasure and all of those types of things. And one of the things that keeps coming up, every time I do a values exercise is that friendship and relationships are in my top three. And so that's where I get a lot of energy. It's just really, really critically important that I'm making those connections. It's something that kind of feeds my soul. And I remember being at a conference one time and saying that one of the things that I love is learning and teaching. And a friend of mine who was there sent me a picture of it. And I was talking and I don't remember what it was that I said that she said, not only did you did I learn something today, but you taught it to me and I just remember thinking that's great like that. That's fantastic, right? And so kind of those are the moments that when the day is over, and this is to your one of your first questions, and I'm not one of the things that then lets me kind of shut down my brain is I accomplished one of the things that was really important to me personally.
Wow, that was powerful. And I'm so impressed that you can Do that, that every three to four year personal values exercise. And it's such a great thing that you do, because most people don't do that until they're sitting on their deathbed. Truth be told, there was a study done. It's not hospice, I forgot what it's called, before you go into hospice, it's that step before, and they did a survey this lady did this research on, I forgot how many people but 1000s of people, and it was like one of the top three regrets in life and your relationship is having strong relationships or not having enough of those is one of the biggest regrets that people have. So it's, it's so good that you're kind of taking that every couple years, and you're coming up with the same way, you're coming up with the same answer, and it's gonna continue. And it might maybe it was number three, and maybe negative. And the older you get, it's gonna become number two. And soon, it's going to become number one. And I think you're right. Listen, we're all aging, right. And
so what what becomes more important is obviously shifting as well. And I think this is really critical. Especially I have found personally, that the and I spoke about being very agile, and being able to very successfully operate in the gray. And I think one of the things that's made me a successful HR executive has been my ability to not look at things as binary. Obviously, the illegal unethical things are like non starters. But for the most part, you're being asked to operate in gray areas constantly, and how can I make sense of what's happening in order to start to solve this big problem that's in front of me. What I have found, however, is that the older I get, the more I have to pay attention to those values that are really critical to me. And so a company say where bottom line, growth and profitability are the only North Star, that's probably not the company that I want to work. Because for me, relationships, and creativity, and change, and personal growth are really important core values to me. So if all I'm being asked to do is mint money, that's probably not the right job for me. And so I never found that early on in my career to be an issue. But the more I go through these stages of career and life, my own personal values become very, very connected to my job satisfaction.
That's great advice. And I hope that a lot of people really are they hit rewind, and play that one more time, because that is power that is so powerful. And if you're kind of driven on a higher purpose, as opposed to just the monetary side of things that build not only are you going to be more committed, but you'll work harder, you'll believe in it, you'll last longer, you'll probably perform better, and all the other things will fall into place. So I think that's awesome. I just looked at the clock, and I realize we're running tight on time here. I've got one more question. I've got tons of questions, but I'm gonna have to just go with one more was, what was the best advice somebody ever gave you? And does that play out? Would you be able to pass that advice along? Or could it potentially might you have different advice,
the best advice that someone gave me. And this is a direct quote seared in my brain I'll never forget it was I had a mentor and really sponsor a fantastic guide. And he said, Hey, Laura, you're gonna have to figure out where you want to hitch your wagon to, and take that ride, as long as it makes sense. And I worked for this person for eight years. It was probably one of the most satisfying and bumpy rides, but it was a lot of fun. And what I take from that is, it's almost bigger than that. It's this idea of find your tribe. And the, again, for I always maintain that the two loneliest jobs at any company are the CEO and the head of HR, I mean, bar none. There's no funny lonelier, you know, than those two people and find your tribe, right find, especially for a head of HR, find the people that you can hitch your wagon to, from a collaboration standpoint, from a sharing standpoint, from an advice standpoint, from a listening standpoint, because it's a tough job, and it's only becoming harder, right? Somebody said to me, do you want to stay in HR? And of course, yes. And they'll listen to all the things that are so different. So head of HR job, even five years ago, is so different than it is today. And so, that advice about hitching my wagon is really important. I've taken it now to find the people to surround yourself with that are going to push you that are going to listen that are going to You know, ask you that provocative questions instead of you always being the one that's asking the provocative question.
Completely agree. And no, would you consider this tribe? Is this like a mastermind group, if you're familiar with that term, but it's something that I'm a huge proponent of.
So I don't know what a mastermind group is, but I have my own kind of personal board of directors. So maybe it's similar.
Love the PbO love that I actually teach people how to set up their own personal board of directors. So that just there's like music to my ears.
So So I so I rotate my directors just like any good companies good. And so again, like every three or four years, and it's funny, you find that the people that you hadn't, or five years ago aren't the ones that you need. Now, it's, you'll cut them out, but you just start to rely on different people differently. And in fact, I'm looking at mine, where it's right in front of me, and I kind of divide them up financial, personal, spiritual and career. And so I have different sets of people on that board to help me there's different pieces of my life. That's one, I mentioned this group chief to you. And I have found a cohort of nine other executive women who are not in HR, I'm the only one in HR, but they bring this breadth of understanding about career and family, and challenges and opportunities. And it's an really incredible group of women where we, the support is incredible, the provocative questions, make you really think hard about the things that you want things that are being offered to you? And how to answer those questions. And so you'll find them in, you can find your tribe anywhere, the hard part. And the necessary part is to really sit down and think about it. Right. And again, to your point, I don't know that people really do they're kind of just going through their day to day, you Billy too. And I find this hard, where I actually have to carve out time in my schedule to do it. Because like I said, to my my brains a little bit like a pinball machine, and just shutting it down is hard. But you have to carve out time. And so whether you're one of those 5am, wake up people that take your five to 6am. And just think about you, and very few people do that, right? Whether they think it's because they're selfish, or there's no value in this, I saw a T shirt one time of a woman in the park and it said, If mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. And it cracks me up still today. But I think about it, if you as a manager are not happy, your employees are not going to be if you as a CEO, or not up in your company is going to start to feel that you as a parent, I mean, it all has the same impact. And so how do you carve out time for yourself to really ask yourself hard questions and your other things that are important to you? That's important.
Yeah, that is so important. And the PbO, the personal Board of Directors is I can't stress it enough. That's essentially there's mastermind groups at work. And I like the fact by the way that you mentioned the diversity, because that's huge. You don't want to get stuck in an echo chamber. Yeah, so surrounding yourself by your tribe, other people that are similar in terms of thinking in terms of pushing yourself to another level is great. I love the fact that you're kind of changing them in and out. I think that's awesome. A lot of people just kind of find one mentor, and they just kind of I know you said hitch, but sometimes you got to, like you said eight years and you had to move on. That's important. Sometimes there's a lifespan. So that's I think that's more excellent advice, Lorna, phenomenal conversation, we covered a lot. There were some clear themes in terms of agility is really important. Obviously, being able to kind of move is upskilling talking about the Forgot what that if you'd like to call that like in the integration of data, and personal manager to kind of for people's careers and internal mobility with organizations, the importance of relationships. I mean, it just goes on and on the role of HR, the ability to influence decisions. This is a conversation that people are gonna have to listen to a couple times. And I really hope they do, and I hope they get their pen handy. I've been taking notes. While you've been talking in mind, my wrist is getting a little tired. I know I'll be playing this a couple times. So
this has been like my immense pleasure. Thank you for letting me take some of your time to talk about these things that I find interesting and important to me and for the folks listening obviously, relationships. We talked about this a lot and I'm on LinkedIn. I'm happy to chat with anybody. please reach out to me if anyone has questions about this or Or if there are connections that you think are worthwhile making where I can help. I think, again, there is this notion of, I've been really fortunate in my career and I love paying it forward. I love that you are a giver. And you remind me of the famous Hollywood saying, I
think it was jack Lemmon that might have come up with this quote, he said that if you're fortunate enough to make it to the penthouse, don't forget to send the elevator back down. So on behalf of those interested in getting on that elevator, we thank you. Thank you all