So I am a 28 year old Caucasian female with long red hair, and I am sitting in front of, well I guess I have a green chair behind me with a green wall. I have a blue shirt on. And that's pretty much.
This is Katherine J can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what your background is in the educational yeah sure
I can go farther up. Yeah, so I was diagnosed with Crohn's disease in 2014 by December 31 And I was a senior in college at that time. So I had to deal a lot with kind of navigating my last year of college with a newfound disability, and then right after I kind of started my masters, as I was in the hospital in and now, a lot for that. And now I'm actually a professor, so I actually kind of advocate for my students to share their disabilities as much as possible, so that I can give them the adequate care that they need.
This is Katherine that's amazing Jade Can you Haley Can you introduce yourself to us before we jump into the interview. Sure, hi
everyone this is Haley, I am a 27 year old Caucasian female I also have red hair but not as red as Jade, with more of an Auburn red. Sorry, Jane, you just have very awesome red hair and I had to point that out. I have bangs, so it's about my hair is about past my shoulders are so I have pink lipstick on, and I'm also wearing a shirt that has, it's like this pinkish color but it has a couple of blue butterflies on it, and I'm sitting at my kitchen table, and behind me you can see a painting of mine that has three kids under a rainbow, and there is a portrait of Audrey Hepburn and black and white and some fake plants up on a shelf to give it some color and light in here. So a little bit about my background, I am autistic, I am an attorney, but most of what I actually do for work now that I'm no longer in private practice representing hospital systems, is I get to do neuro diversity education and outreach and I get to mostly work with the companies and making sure that the workplace is accessible and inclusive for all sorts of people who are neurodivergent. And also, I just feel like I have a lot of fun. And like Jade I also get to teach at the college level so I adjunct at a college in Indiana, I'm from Florida but I get to teach over zoom for the psych department for students who are going to eventually be entering service professions, helping students and young people and clients on the autism spectrum, and I'm done speaking.
This is Catherine that's awesome, thank you guys so much for your introductions. I'm super excited to have you guys here, given your background and education and the experiences that you guys have had both as students and as educators. My first question to you is, what has your personal experience been, as you know, someone living with disabilities within the education system, whether as a student or as an educator, what has that experience been like for you guys. This is Catherine I'm done speaking.
Very nice. This is good. We're about, like, who's gonna go first. I guess I'll just really quickly take away with that, if that's all right. And well like I said I was diagnosed with Crohn's disease in my senior year of college, so I did a lot of my years of pretty much like a, quote unquote, what would you say normal person, you know, the people and seeing the abled person, although I certainly had like OCD and some other things I really wasn't physically having any problems and health. So I was actually on a half course load, just by chance I had purposely made sure that I took as many credits, as I could, throughout all the other semesters in my college undergraduate classes, so that by the time I reached my last semester, I could coast through ended up being a really really good thing since I got diagnosed with Crohn's disease. So I was only like on half credit cards had to be a part time students. So, you know, instead of having to deal with a lot of the problems that like I had to deal with in my masters which I'll get to. I really didn't have to deal with a lot of like the accessibility issues etc. Just because I only had like one or two professors, and they were all pretty much the same. By that point because it was all for the same department, and I just talked to him personally and was like hey I have this going on. Just so you know like can you help me out like if I have to leave or if I can't be here, and there was like oh yeah sure. So that was really really nice. But as we know it's not always that easy. Totally a lot harder once I got into the master's program, I was kind of okay for like half a year of master's program, but then I got some really bad complications with my disease. I got a blood clot, I got PhDs, I was in the hospital. I did classes from bed. I actually had to take a semester off, so I really learned that, you know, as a student you have to advocate for yourself because your teachers don't necessarily know what's going on, and you have to tell them what's going on, because otherwise they don't know how to help you. Also your accessibility in department is pretty much one of the biggest things you can do as well with my master's I didn't really have to worry about it because it was one class at a time, my specific program, but if I had had a bunch of professors and a bunch of classes, it's definitely something I would have done. And, yes, that's pretty much how it worked for me and I've done it in case I'm speaking.
This is Katherine Haley, can you tell us a little bit about your experience and the different roles that you've had and what it was like in the education system living with disabilities and neurodiversity. This is Catherine I'm done speaking.
Sure this is Hayley speaking, um, I think for me, I actually started with receiving special education services when I was three years old, so that's always kind of a fight, I know for neurodivergent students especially in public schools, you have to sometimes get early intervention services or have access to getting an IEP created for you. What was happening because I was diagnosed in the late 90s, is our public school system wasn't adequately accommodating me and not really getting the support that I needed socially, but I didn't need the support academically so my parents made the decision to pull me out of special education classes, they actually moved, so I, and I enrolled me in private school where I did pretty well actually I did where you know academically, and what we would do every year is we'd meet with the teachers before the academic year started, so I would know them, they would know about me and when I was old enough to understand my own autism so about the fourth grader, so I started getting to go to these meetings so they're more in line with the 504 plans that have been in private schools or in because private schools don't have to follow the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act because they are basically entitled to give you a free and appropriate public education. So, at these meetings I would get to advocate for what my goals were and what I wanted to accomplish throughout the school year to make it more accessible and successful for me. A lot of the time it just meant that I wanted to be friends with other girls on the playground or have assistance and making friends because I always struggled socially. But as I got older I feel like I got less and less support, because it was seen that because I did well academically. I didn't need support it, especially once you get to high school things that that social support really isn't on the table. And I think academically, and in high school where support really fell apart, was in the college admissions and college counseling process because my high school was very much a place that had a lot of pressure for students to go to these very elite high end brand name schools and I knew that wasn't something that I wanted. It wasn't something that I knew I'd be able to handle with my disability I wasn't ready to live away from home. I struggled enough with driving on my own I just had a lot of other limitations. So when I said I wanted to go to school somewhere that I reasonably won't have to fly home, that kind of made my school, disappointed in me, and I ended up going to a Florida School, knowing that that's what I can handle that I can handle being on my own but not too far were able to come home whenever I needed to, or if I wanted to, and I did come home a lot from college I went to University of Florida in Gainesville, which is about four hours away from where my parents live, so that was the right amount of distance then that I was able to come home every couple of weekends if I wanted to. And I really didn't struggle academically with school but I did get accommodations from housing because I wanted to live with somebody that who was maybe more experienced socially or had a more of a field of campus so I actually got to remove the sophomore, and that was something that was supposed to be helpful. Unfortunately it didn't really work out, and housing eventually helped me with a single room on campus, which was wonderful, as an accommodation, but that's all they gave me and I think once I got to graduate school and law school so to speak, is that's where things kind of fell apart with accommodations because they didn't want to grant me anything, because their accessibility services were really difficult to navigate, they wanted additional documentation psychoeducation evaluations and for anyone who's ever had any experience with those formal diagnostic processes for neurodivergent, students, they're very expensive. It's not fair. And I decided not to go through with that process. So I was self accommodating my way through a more challenging workload and curriculum that definitely isn't designed with no diversity in mind, as someone who is newly 21 I didn't really know how to navigate, asking for accommodations that weren't extra time. Because extra time was what kind of that standard was another, I feel like I'm on the other side of like datas as an educator, the way that I see it when I work with students is I don't ask for documentation I believe you at face value and I think what can I do to make my class as accessible to everyone as possible. And after my first time teaching I realized I need to incorporate an option for a break halfway through class because classes 90 minutes. I'm like, maybe if we have this little break for 510 That's enough time that everyone can regroup. You can refocus your attention span, do whatever you have to do and you're not going to miss anything. So I keep thinking of how can I make my class more inclusive for adult learners and college students because they have different needs than younger learners as well so that's kind of what I'm thinking about, I'm sure there's probably something in this conversation that we're gonna think of as we keep going but that's all I have for now and I'm done speaking this was Haley,
this is Katherine, I love what you were talking about of that, like that trajectory of like young learners to like, you know, middle aged teenage learners that kind of middle of the road, part of the education journey. And then once we get to adult learning institutions, how drastically the accommodation and accessibility scene looks like for different learners in different stages. And I'm curious. Jade, I would love to hear from you on this, because Haley's did such a good job speaking to her own experience on this. What in your opinion, This is going to be a really odd question. What in your opinion, makes each one of these stages so uniquely and different and why. If there is an answer to the why question, why do you think it looks so different for learners in different stages, although they're the disability hasn't necessarily changed the learner has not necessarily changed, they're just older why why did the accessibility services for learners at different stages look so different and how can students and parents prepare for how that's going to look differently throughout their learners stages.
Alright, so this is Jade and I am going to speak. Oh yeah, you're totally right. I think they said why we see that difference and just like growing up and needing that assistance, every so often for other things like you know, like I mentioned I think I had OCD when I was younger, like xiety stuff like that. So I have some experience with like, the whole, you know, talking with faculty to kind of get like a final for something like that but yeah, I just, I think a lot of it has to do with like the social needs. For one thing, because obviously like when we're kids. we have different social needs than when we're teenagers and we have for social needs and we're we're adults in college. Also different with independent independence, big things but like kids can't do certain things they will need a lot more help in some areas that you know my college students, my students for example if they won't need, or they leave, they shouldn't, for a lot of them, shouldn't need so much help for stuff like, like let's say for example, getting to their classes. They should be able to do that by themselves. If they can't, they should know how to have accommodations to help them racial classes. Kids, completely, you know they have to be managed in that way because they might not know. Like, it just managing yourself I guess executive function really is a big part of it. As you get older you have more executive function I guess that's what I would really say, even if it might not be like the best like sometimes I don't have the best executive function, for example, I'm not always great at planning thing. That's just my personality. But that's definitely what I would think would be the most major part, What students and parents can do about it for different levels, is to definitely keep in touch with like they're, whether it's your school counselor whoever runs those different your disabilities office your school counselor whoever lots of different offices or plans to come with you to definitely like, you know, tailor it, year to year, because you can grow and need different things from year to year, just because, you know, you might think, oh well kids not that different from age 12 to 14, but there could be a lot of social differences that are very very major, and so they need a lot of different things in those plans. And this is Jade and I am done talking.
Thank you for the that really insightful answer Jade I think it's, it's really telling that we have this societal assumption that as students and people go through different stages in life as we get older, we're automatically going to have certain, quote unquote, abilities, you know, you talk about that executive function it's an assumption in our society that people are automatically when they get a certain age are going to have these certain, you know, innate functions inherent to them as a human being. And we know in the disability community that it doesn't always work that way and I think that's part of the conversation that is so important to ensuring that students at all levels get the things that they need. My next question was for Haley, sorry. Haley I'm really curious. We've talked we've kind of touched on it a little bit in our conversation but we haven't exactly named it in the education space we talk a lot about like universal design of learning and universal instruction design, and accessible learning. And I would really like to hear from you what exactly Accessible Learning is for those that may have heard those terms but aren't exactly sure what it means, what are your thoughts on that Haley. This is Catherine I'm dead speaking.
This is Haley I think that for me accessible learning means different things depending on who we're talking about too so I look at accessible wording as how can we make sure all sorts of diverse learners are able to engage with what we're teaching and how that they're able to absorb that information, maybe learn from it like I don't. So, in my last class I didn't give any exams, I didn't give any quizzes, I just made the my students write reflections on the material and I thought that was a better way for them to engage with it. And what we did as a final project is I gave them some ideas of how to explore something we learned in class and to interpret it in a way that they felt comfortable with. So I had students who were taking this psychology class who were art majors, And I thought if I give them a five paragraph five page essay, they might not be as well written for instance as someone who's an English major taking this class or someone who has been taking psych classes and is really great with APA format, it's not fair that they might not do as well on this because they are taking advanced writing classes. So I did this for open to interpretation and of course the student in my class was an art major, did this really interesting linoleum block print basically, exploring the things we did in class and she made all these different prints in different colors to explore like this idea, this spectrum of like near diversity, and she was really explaining why she did what she did, and I really enjoyed that because it showed that she was engaging with what we learned all term on her terms, and it didn't mean that she didn't understand things and that that that would have done better for her than writing a five page essay. Well of course some of the English majors want to write a five piece, or five paragraph or five page essay, how they should always want to just interview somebody in the community to learn more about what autistic people will experience and I thought that was a really powerful way to make class accessible, and honestly I looked at it and what I also did with that violence, I'm like, This is what. Please have this in before class, but I also, if you have a reason that you couldn't. I understand. Just please be fair with me level with me to make my life easier too, because I totally understand if your executive functioning just went complaint that happens to me a lot. I know that it's really hard to keep up with things, especially when we meet often. So I always tried to make sure, when we do accessible learning that students should feel like they're empowered and able to, like, articulate some form what they learned or what they feel that the big takeaway from a lesson was, I don't think it's not that I don't believe in assessments or anything, it's just that I don't think it was appropriate in this case, especially with college students that I trusted, they're adults, and they're here because they want to be and they showed up every single class they were pretty good about things. So, at least for me accessible is how can I make sure that students understand things and I think when we talk about that with younger learners, it's really interesting because I know everyone has very different access needs. And sometimes access needs conflict with each other so at least when I was assigning work to my college students to was I tried to assign things in different formats. So sometimes I would assign them to have a podcast like this, but if you couldn't listen you have the transcript to follow along with. Or I would give them an article from a reputable journalists source or a newspaper and sometimes there was a video that would correspond with it so they can watch that too. So I always tried to figure out how to give different modalities for that similar or the same information. So that way if you didn't understand one article but the next week there's a video, you're not going to be completely lost, so I always tried to make sure that we had things as to cater to as many types of learners as possible, because most people I think are very curious and they want to learn it's just how do we bring learning to them, especially on topics that they're passionate about. And I think, I hope I did okay.
No, this is Calvin you did a great job. And that brings up another question that I have and I would really like to hear from Jay. And of course, Haley if you have some input to, Um, I hear from tude from fellow teachers a lot, and even sometimes parents but educators specifically that are like, I really want to make learning accessible to all of my students but there are so many different kinds of accessibility needs. I don't even know where to start and there are so many different things to do like how am I going to have enough time to actually make all of those accommodations possible and they just they spiral and they get so overwhelmed thinking about what it means to create accessible learning they're just like, oh my goodness I'm going to have to, like, for every lesson I'm going to have to have five different ways to teach that lesson and oh my goodness I'm never gonna have enough time to even breathe. How do I do this. Jay, can you tell us a little bit about how teachers can can ease that overwhelm, in a way that they ease that overwhelm and address accessibility needs in a way that doesn't take up all of their energy and resources and time and end up burning them out as I hear so many teachers say they're afraid of. This is Catherine I'm done speaking.
All right, this is Jade and I am going to speak. Episode I'm in bigger, I hope I said I'm an adjunct professor. So basically, and I'm sure Haley knows some of this. What that means is that there's like a structure to the course that I have to follow. And so, at least in my university if you're an adjunct like they give you a syllabus, they give you the outline, they give you like you have to use these five assessments, you cannot change them, you have to use them in the way that they are like, you know, so for me if I teach an English class. I have to give my students, five papers to do their five papers for any one of the same class, and better if you're taking it from me or another adjunct or, you know professors who is full time at the university. It's so that everything is consistent. The problem with that, obviously, is when you get to things like questions like this, and you're like okay well what if you have some students who aren't like the best writers. Well, of course, then you have other people in the university going, well it's a writing class, so of course, the point is, when writing. But as we all know that's not always so easy with disabilities and stuff like that to just be like, oh well you have to do this, because you know when it's a different way of your actual pattern of thought or different actual physical ability in some cases, like attending, you know, maybe for other classes attending labs or something like that. It's an actual problem. So for me, what I noticed, to do is, even though I have to use all of those assessments, you know, the same and I can't change those things, is once in a while I'll kind of either add things, or I might kind of just change the way I grade them, so that I am looking more at like, for example, if I know a student's have a disability and I know they might struggle more with something about maybe one thing their thoughts like are on paper, I know some people, I mean even just abled students that's really hard for some people, but people, they just can't work their thoughts on paper, you know, looking as a whole, like, okay, but like how hard, Have they tried, you know like as opposed to looking at everything as, how good is it, but actually looking at what work that was put into it, and you know the amount of effort, how much the students showing up, how much the students is trying how they're being with you about their struggle with all of those things I definitely use when I'm kind of grading. So, for a lot of teachers I just say that's like the main thing, because if you start to focus on all these little things all the time like, oh I need to have transcripts and I need to have audio and I need to have, you know, like you said you can start to spiral. So I mean, certainly if there's a student who has with a specific disability and has reached out to you or has been obvious about it, like has come with accommodations that has been like, Hey, I can't hear well I need a transcript, is there any way I can get one of those, like, for sure, like, you know, I'll make them available and usually you know if you do your classes or something, it's kind of just available easily. Now, a lot of cases, which is great. You know, I would say like, work on making things accessible, but do the parts that you can, without like trying to overreach too much and stress yourself out. You know what's the most common things that you see that are problems, and like for me, for example, it's like talking about which is students might not just be able to kind of voice their thoughts correctly on the paper. So you think about, instead of the format of like how things are written out, you know, Did they get the point across, how well does it get the point across, stuff like that asking kind of big global questions instead of focusing on the little nitpicky stuff like, oh, like how much of it was, you know what is the English spelt wrong and you know, kind of the things that it's the same word, honestly students, you know English second language learners as well. I do the same thing, because they might not have as clean, quote unquote, of a paper. But did they get their point across.
Did they work like super hard, if I know they work way harder than someone who had like a really clean good paper but I know that person kind of has to, you know, I'll give the person who worked harder, the higher grade, and some people might not agree with me on that, but that's just how I do it. And MJ.
Thank you, Jade for that perspective on on that real very real overwhelm for teachers who are trying their hardest who may not, you know, be as entrenched in Universal Design for Learning, which is like a huge thing. But, and it can be really overwhelming when you start going down that rabbit hole of universal design, it's super fascinating but a lot of teachers don't have a lot of experience in it so that overwhelm is really real. I kind of want to shift gears and my next question. Um, we've talked a lot about the perspective of educators, and I think a really important thing to touch on is the parents or parental figures of like our younger learners especially, and ways that that parental figures and guardians of younger learners can prepare themselves and their students for that accessible learning process. Haley Do you have any thoughts on what parents can do to help prepare themselves, especially in the coming year, for helping advocate for their students who might have unique learning needs. This is Catherine I'm done speaking.
This is Haley so I think it's really important that parents get as involved as they could, and I think it's a really delicate balance because you don't want to speak over your child's needs. But you also want to be setting a great example as an advocate with them. And I say with your children very intentionally because eventually, especially as our learners grow older, they don't always get to be the ones you don't always get to be in the room when they're advocating for their own educational needs, so I know in college they usually will make a very big stink at orientation about your parents not being the ones who could go and talk to your professors. So I think it's really important that there comes a point when parents also know how do we get our children involved in this advocacy process, and also how do we know when we think flat out but the school or the district or the other professionals involved with his child's education might not always be on the right track. So I know this is especially true and there's other services that are part of this conversation so I know sometimes you have special education students who might also be receiving speech therapy or OT or other services while in school or after school so I think it's important when we have these conversations realize they are often messy and interdisciplinary at the same time. And sometimes it's up to the parents to really say hey, this isn't working, and also for educators to treat parents with respect so something that I saw really circulating around on social media coming from parent educators who are disabled themselves and who have disabled children, is when the team members just call them mom or like, oh mom has a problem with this is for educators and service providers, please use the parents names. There are people outside of being so and so's parent. I know that my mom is affectionately known still as Haley's mom, but Haley's mom has a name of her own. Her name is Sherry, and people would say something like, Sheree has concerns about this I think that also validates the parents and I think that's important to do too. And I know that in disability advocacy, we always say that it's always about what we want but when you're very young, sometimes a caregiver or a parent is the person who essentially is given the microphone and are the ones who are speaking on your behalf and you might not always know what you need related to your disability. But I think when it's time for you to come into the picture, the parents have to know when to say when. When did we bring our children into this conversation. And when do we know that we're there to catch them if they don't know how to lead it or advocates themselves and guide them in that right direction, so I guess that's kind of where I'm thinking is, I think it's very stressful because sometimes you still know your kids better than some of the service providers do but your kid also knows your kid better than you do. I think it's really just kind of knowing when to say when on every single aspect and that's always a little bit of a delicate dance full disclosure I am not a parent, I am not even a parent to a living plant like we were talking about the plants behind me aren't even real so I am probably not the best person to give parenting advice, like, I'm very honest about this. I don't have kids. I don't know if I even would like to have kids when I grow up someday, but I think that it's also important to know that kids, no more and get don't get the credit they deserve, oftentimes in their own education. And
this is Catherine, I am so glad that you touched on that. And I feel like there are so many different roles associated with making sure that our students, whether they are our children or our selves as either young adult or adult students or educators with disabilities. We have so many different roles associated with all these different service providers and the school district and the child and the parents and the caregivers and all of these different roles and sharing that conversation with all of those people is such an important piece of that puzzle you know, making sure that we're communicating and and coming from a place of empathy and openness is such a big part of making sure that our students have what they need. I want to touch on something that I know all of us right now are wondering and dealing with no matter what our role is the coming school year in the context of COVID school year, and, and all of the things that come with that, and such a different landscape globally than what we expected not that long ago. What unique challenges and also opportunities, does this particular school your brain for Accessible Learning and an all of the people in the role trying to make sure that all different kinds of unique learners have accessible learning. Jade can Okay, I'd love to hear from you first. But I want to hear from both of you on this one because I think it's something very much on everyone's mind. This is Catherine I'm done speaking.
Alright, so I'm thinking. Yeah, so I didn't really expect that we'd be dealing with this, again, I get older, with our dogs but it seems like we might have a similar trajectory to last year. So if that is the case, then I think what my university is doing or at least what I've heard so far about something changes which we all know it could change at any moment anytime with the question of the Delta area. But my university was like well you can still, you can do what you did last year you teach one class from home for a week. So for me this semester I actually only teach two days a week, and I have one class period, so I will be utilizing that break idea, by the way, Haley. And, you know like, I will go in teach on Tuesday. And then on Thursdays I'll probably zoom. For some students, this is an amazing thing, because actually I think we're better this way this way they can go back and look at the material because I do record. And I do save, and they have the transcripts to look at stuff like that so if they miss out things, they can just go back and get it. Other students however I realized that they do not thrive in this environment whatsoever, they really need. Kind of like someone who almost watch them to make sure that they're still paying attention in this, this isn't even, like, necessarily, this is both abled and disabled students, you know, I, I'm often teaching to just, as you know on a zoom just a one silhouette black silhouette, they all from those cameras off. I can barely hear anything. I feel like I'm talking to a wall. I'm like, does anyone else. So, and then you know I might end up getting a bunch of emails on like stuff I clearly talked about but that people didn't listen to. And that's something that I feel like is really hard with COVID is it's kind of like when people don't have that accountability of like showing up every day and, You know, having to be present, or being there in some way. A lot of students start to lose. And I can only imagine what that's like it, you know, for more neurodivergent students or students that learning disabilities really struggle with things like as failure to try and navigate a different system. At the same time. At the same time, I did see recently on my local news for example, that like they were talking about how one of our districts in the area has started to do online learning. And for some students, that has actually been a really beneficial thing, because they've actually been able to pay attention more with some of those other students, like, you know, while they might be distracted in the classroom from people tapping their pen tool, coffee coughing making noises at home and they don't have to, you know, listen to these things, then they actually learn better, so it really seems like you have students who go both ways and you kind of have to try to figure out ways to help both high school students with like a hybrid model like this. And I'm jaded I've done.
This is Katherine, I think you bring up a really important point that and it's one of the reasons why I asked this question the way that I did because no matter what role we are in. I've been a student and an educator, and an advocate, this last year and so at every turn, there's equal parts challenge and frustration and also really awesome accessibility opportunities with this hybrid model. Haley I would really love to hear your thoughts as well, on what unique challenges and opportunities this year brings to the Accessible Learning realm. This is Catherine I'm done speaking. This is Haley. You it on the head
pretty well but I do think there's a lot of challenges coming into square so not even just in the learning environment but even just going back to school so I live in Florida and there's a lot of concern over wearing masks and mask mandates and things like that that might also be distracting for neurodivergent learners who have sensory issues for instance so mourning at home might be better but in some ways, it might not be as accessible and other ways it could, but no matter what, I hope that what we've learned so far, is there are ways that we can make learning more accessible, no matter what we do. So I think what Jay was saying about having a hybrid model, I think that's so great. I teach explicitly over zoom. So for me. My students love it. They love our format, they feel like it's safer for some reason to share things, and it's less judgmental, but I also know that for us we have to have more concerns and we're able to do accessibility better so even that we're able to have captions and transcripts in record class that's huge for a lot of my students. And also, I think what we're talking about, like, like college students that we have is that sometimes they have other responsibilities while they're students that sometimes though working sometimes or taking care of family members, and I think that we have to remember that accessibility isn't just for disabled neurodivergent students so I think about the students in my class who are parents themselves, I think about ones who are taking care of aging parents or disabled parents or siblings or other family members I think about the ones who are working a job or two outside of school and thinking about how even a recorded class for instance for them might be super accessible that they're able to attend to their other responsibilities. I just think that virtual learning needs to stay and anyone who is against it doesn't realize that it doesn't just benefit disabled people who might have access to being able to get services that they need at home so.
