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Hey, I'm Jon.
And I'm Becky.
And this is the We Are For Good podcast.
Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.
So welcome to the good community, we're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
So let's get started. Becky, we're back.
We didn't have enough fun the first time we had to keep going. Let's keep the good vibes flowing. Welcome back, everybody.
Yeah, I mean, we learned so much in the first episode about Enneagram. I'm so excited to go to 2.0 and just start to think about how to apply it. And we have one of our favorite people back in the house.
It is literally like one of my favorite humans on the entire planet. Ashley Engle is back with us. She's the Pastor of Spiritual Formation at The Well Church of Edmond. And she's just been a student of the Enneagram for several years. And I've known her for 20 plus years as my BFF. And something I've learned about her is she goes all in with her curiosity. And when she finds something that she is deeply passionate about, she obsessively reads about it, researches it. And we're lucky that we're going to be tapping into that incredible expertise. So get in this house, Ashley, and welcome back to the podcast.
Thanks, guys. I'm so excited to be back.
I hope everyone who's listening has listened to part one. If you have not, please go back. And I truly hope that you've taken the test, it's a free test, because we're really going to be breaking down, how do you apply this now? How does this relate to your personal life? How is this going to help you in your business, and I don't even think you have to be a nonprofit for this to be applicable because it is so universal for humans everywhere in the world. And so I think I just want to start today just talking about this correlation between building relationships and the Enneagram. Ashley talk to us a little bit about some of the ways that people can use Enneagram to better understand and improve the relationships that we already have right now.
Mmhmm. For sure. You know, I don't know if you guys know, but we have had a rough couple of years in the world, humanity, the US of A. And, you know, we talked about this a little bit last time, but there's so much division and so much, just not wanting to understand the other other side or other people in general. And it's just really created these, like, deep fractures in our society. And we see that on all levels. You know, we see it in business, we see it in our personal lives in our families. And I think a big part of healing that, beginning to heal that is, the first step is self awareness, I think the more you can understand about yourself and about your motivations and the way that you view the world. And other people, I think that is a great place to begin and the Enneagram is phenomenal for that. And then I think when you can begin to have an awareness of the people around you of their Enneagram types. As you mentioned, Becky, I think last time, it just increases your compassion and increases your empathy, when you can understand a little bit about how other people approach the world and and that they're not a lot of times, especially types that sort of present very differently than yours. Types, for example, you know, as an Enneagram two I'm a compliant type. And so I'm a team player, and I'm, I'm always trying to gauge like, where the other people stand. And that's the first thing I noticed, right? Is everybody good? Whereas a, you know, one of the other types that has more of an aggressive presentation and aggressive stance, they are going to come into a room very differently and into a problem, an issue, a discussion very differently than I do. And so in the past before having knowledge about the Enneagram I might have been like, well, what's your problem? You know, it just increases your your understanding and your empathy and your compassion, like oh, okay, well, this is how you approach problem solving. This is how I approach problem solving. And everybody is needed. Everybody is needed. And that's what's so wonderful about this.
Okay, this is just such a good place to start because I learned so much listening through the types. And I think if you haven't poured into the first part of this episode, I go back and spend time with it. Because you'll start to see the the pieces of your family coming together and maybe your close friends that you know, really deeply. But just like what do we do with that next, and I would love to kind of shift to about mindsets. mindsets, is something that we talk about a ton on the podcast, because for the fundraisers, listening, you know, we've talked a lot this year that our mindsets could be holding us back from asking for that bigger gift, or even just showing up day to day on in different ways in our organizations. So can we talk about this? Like how does the Enneagram help lead us into identifying the mindsets that could be holding us back into stepping into our best self? And like where does someone start with that? I know there's a lot of fear baked into that. How can we work through fears and rewire our mindsets?
Absolutely. The Enneagram, you know, Becky, you mentioned this earlier, that the way that Enneagram differs from other personality tests and typologies is that the Enneagram is truly it's a discipline. And again, I've been at this for probably about five years, and I still am learning new things. The deeper I go and the more I read and listen to and so you it's you know, you hear that old saying like you get out of it, what you put in. And so once you begin your Enneagram journey once you and I guess we can walk through what that looks like this kind of is a good lead into your question, Jon, there are a lot of great Enneagram assessments out there. So if you are wanting to begin this journey, you can go online, there are several great Enneagram tests, we can link them. Some are free, some have a small fee. But the assessments are great to sort of point you in the direction of your type. And then the real work comes when you are reading about the types and you you kind of see which one fits which one feels maybe a little uncomfortable for you, you feel exposed. We talked about that last time. So once you find your type, you can pay attention to the levels of integration and disintegration. So again, there's so much information out there, it's so readily available. So what that means is in seasons of health, right, when you are healthy when you are functioning at your high levels as a human being, you will exhibit certain characteristics and certain motivations. So for example, in the description of a type two, it'll say, when healthy, a two is motivated by the sort of altruistic, just giving freely, loving unconditionally, and each type has this sort of level of optimal health, right. And that is always the goal. Now life is tough. And we know as human beings, we're gonna have challenges and obstacles. But as you read through those levels of integration and disintegration, you start to see these red flags pop up, you know, so for a two, this might look like things like starting to be a little bit manipulative, like giving to get something in return. So for me in seasons of disintegration and stress, I'll start to notice those things about myself. And I'm like, okay, why am I sending that text to that person? Is it because I am really wondering how that person is doing and how I can help that person? Or am I lonely today, and I want somebody to go, I'm great. How are you? You know, and giving to get right. So it sort of helps us pay attention to those levels of stress. So for example, I keep talking about type two, because that's the type I'm most familiar with, as a type two in health, ao when I am at those optimal levels, I will take on the positive traits of a type four. So that means that I will be very open to beauty and I'll be noticing beauty and I'll notice that I build like, great playlists, and I listened to a lot of classical music in those times. I'll start painting. It's crazy when you notice those things. Now in stress, a two will go to an eight. They will take on the negative traits of an eight, right Becky? And Julie?
Becky's nodding.
And it comes out of nowhere. It's just like this volcano erupting and I'm like, This is not good. I am disintegrating fast. A type one and this is my husband, Jeff. He in stress goes to four, the negative traits of a type four. So that will be very moody, very dramatic. And he said I could tell this story. We call this the great bonfire incident of 2020. So, so Jeff, we made some investments And I will say that they did not pan out, right in recent years. And so, one day in 2020. And again, we know 2020 was a dumpster fire. But on top of that, we had these investments that failed in a big way. And so I look in the backyard, and my husband has built the largest bonfire. And he has a box that he has labeled, scrawled in black Sharpie the lost decade. And in this box are papers, and I look out and he's just throwing, throwing, throwing and just watching it burn just watching it burn. And the kids start to go outside. And I was like, Hey, guys, let's let's give dad, let's give dad a minute.
They're bringing their marshmallows out there.
Yeah, not the time kids.
He was deep in his feelings, he was staring into those flames just moody, just in those unhealthy for juristic. And then in health, a seven, excuse me, a one will go to seven. And so Jeff has this mode. And we call it like Jeff, where he's like, You know what, let's buy a lake house. Let's buy a lake house and a boat. And let's go to Europe. And let's go wouldn't be fun if I look. And he's downloaded Duolingo. He's learning like German and French. And I'm like, we're in enthusiast mode right now. So that is fascinating. When you start to learn more about your type, see where your type goes in stress and in health and see if that resonates because man, it does for me like Jon, for you. And I'm curious, in stress, a nine will go to a six, they'll take on the unhealthy characteristics of a six. So that can be sort of that fear based, like my mom is a nine and the pandemic, you know, kind of kind of threw her for a loop. And then in health, a nine will go to a three. So you know, you might be making a lot of lists and checking things off and setting goals and accomplishing and right? Like it's just...
I feel very seen and exposed.
Yeah, this is such, we're scratching the surface. And I don't want to make generalizations or anything like that, because every human is different, but, and presents differently. But it's just it's so interesting.
I just want to emote on this and I want to give some context for people who are listening right now. And you might be asking yourself, why are we talking about this on a podcast where we're really trying to pour, you know, our company, these conversations into professional development? Folks, this is some of the most important professional development you could ever undertake is really pouring into soft skills. And I love what you said, Jon, about mindsets, because so much of what we do, in trying to solve the world's largest crises really comes down to us. There are things that we cannot control in systems and governments, you know, with policy, and with economics, but the things that we can control are within us. And it boggles my mind that we don't have a culture of pouring into soft skills, because they could be the ult I think they are the ultimate driver of our success and our failure. And so self awareness, emotional intelligence, Enneagram, this is such an important tool for self reflection for growth. We are a company that always wants to be learning, growing, understanding, empathizing, I, since I've learned the Enneagram, I go, I went back into my major gift officer portfolio in my head. And I literally started to figure out what each of my major donors fit into their types. And I could understand exactly how to approach them when to go in, when to really back off, who needs to text who needs a little bit more love, who does not want any more love because they want they value logic, they value statistics, they want the data. And I just think that if you are really going to pour into this and you can apply it to your work to your life to your colleagues, it can have such a ripple effect. And I think in just positive ways,
Becky, I am so glad that you brought that up. And once you become a little bit more familiar with the Enneagram and with your type, it is possible to kind of look around and sort of gauge like what type might this person be and because it is such a tool for self awareness. It really is on the person to discover his or her type and some people it takes a long time for them to do that. You know, like sometimes we don't, we think we know ourselves, but we really we really don't know ourselves was all that well. So when you're dealing with like in a in a nonprofit setting, in a corporate setting, it is so helpful, you know, when you're among friends, and when you know each other's types and things, it's different. But in a in a setting, you know, you never would want to say like, Oh, you're such a six, like, you're such a nice, you know what I mean? Like, it's on the person to discover their type. And you would never want to sort of impose anything on someone, and this is true of our children, as well. You know, they say that you should really avoid sort of using types with your children like saying, Well, I, you know, you're such a one, I think you're such a one, because kids are still forming, you know, and our types are a result of those childhood wounds that we talked about, which is a very uplifting phrase, childhood wounds.
No pressure, everybody.
So anyway, I just wanted to throw that in, you know, you do start to kind of gauge and see certain behaviors and things like that. So you can kind of make inferences about types. But you want to avoid sort of making those definitive statements. Anyway, I just wanted to throw that in.
Well, I mean, I think that is really great advice on every level. But so this is so much of a journey of self reflection, figuring out what kind of drives you how do we really activate around that, you know, especially, and I want to get practical because some people around us are going to be like, I don't want to take another test. I don't want to get involved in that. Yeah, I mean, I think that's a natural thing, too. So it's like, how can this be helpful in a team where maybe you're the only one that knows your number? How do you kind of work from that place? And, you know, dynamically allow it to shape the way you show up? And how does that ripple into relationships and all of that, as well?
Hmm, for sure. And it may be that some people are super resistant to it, and they'll never take the Enneagram. But it can still be helpful from your end. And that's what's great about it is it, you know, it is ultimately helpful when when everybody's on board. And when you know you have this language as part of the culture of your organization when you have, you know, I think I may have said last time I've heard of corporations and of nonprofits putting on the nameplates on outside people's doors, like their type.
I love that.
Isn't that great? So just kind of you know, what you're walking into with your coworkers and your colleagues. But even still, if if, you know, it doesn't become part of you know, the ethos of your organization, you can still be aware of your own levels of integration and disintegration, you can check yourself, you know, before you present an idea to your team, before you approach a donor. You know, check yourself and check your motivations, start talking about the Enneagram start talking about it. And truly I have found that people are pretty receptive to it, especially once they start reading the types, because they feel so seen in it. It is wild, how accurate it is. And the deeper you go into, like the different levels. You know, there are certain things we haven't even talked about. But it's it's wild, you're like, how could, how could something like that know that about me?
I mean, there's just so much here to dive into. And we know, a lot of people listening, you really use these podcasts as conversation starters. And we hope that that's what this does today is allows you to go back to your team and start a conversation because this season, we've been really intentional to talk about culture, because we think it is so important to create a culture, to cultivate this culture. And there's a lot of cults in one place. But this idea that it becomes a magnet when people can really be authentically themselves in a team that sees each other, that you become a magnet to the donors and the funders that you want in your organization, as well as just be a vibrant place to work. And so I just think like how can leaders really use this Enneagram to build into this culture at organizations? And how have you seen that work?
Great question. When you were talking, Jon, the word celebrate came to my mind. And I think when you can celebrate each member of your team in a unique way to appreciate the way the way that each person is wired, when each member feels celebrated and feels like oh, I have something to bring to this team. That is essential. That is different from my colleagues. But that is so so important, and so needed. I think it really helps people feel like their contribution is needed. And what's better than that to feel needed. Well, I'm a two so back to two.
I could not agree with you more. Because when we feel seen and known and valued, everything that flows from us, is so much healthier, it's so much more vibrant. And we ask all of our guests about a moment of philanthropy that they have witnessed that really came in and felt like they changed, it changed them as a person, do you have a story that you'd want to share with us in our community?
I do. And it's deeply connected to the work that you guys do. So let's go back to 2020.
The year of the bonfire? Forever in my head.
Everything was on fire in 2020, including my backyard, so early, it was like late summer, early fall. And I'm painting my bathroom as you do in a pandemic. And I'm listening to your episode with Sara Cunningham of Free Mom Hugs. And so this is pretty early in your podcast journey, right? Like,
That was episode eight.
So it was early. And I'm listening to this episode. And I was aware of Sarahand of her work in our community here in Oklahoma City. And I had heard her and read excerpts from her book. But listening to that story, oof, that was so inspirational to me. And in such a dark time, you know, just in the house, like all the issues of the world compounding. And so I listened to that podcast with her and was so deeply, deeply inspired by her mission. And so cut to the next summer. And I gave free mom hugs at Pride in Oklahoma City, and it was transformational. Such a beautiful experience, Becky was there, some of my friends from high school came and gave hugs with me. And you know, it, just hearing Sara, talk about I think she and I have a very similar faith background experience. And through this time, in my life, I've just been mourning so deeply the way that the LGBTQIA+ community has been treated by the church at large. And just mourning that so deeply. And I was so inspired by what Sarah said, you know, people want to make a difference. And we are giving people an opportunity to do that. So thank you, Sara. And thank you, We Are For Good.
I feel like it just is such a perfect ending to these couple of conversations, because that's what it's all about. It's about realizing, we do have different experiences coming to the table. But this is like the threads that connect us, this is what we're fighting for. And at the end of all the crap like we can talk about strategies and marketing and fundraising. At the end of it, it's like about people, you know, and it's about showing love and whatever way we feel really called to show up in that and whatever organization we're fighting for. So thank you. I mean, what a beautiful testament and I love this community so much. And Sara is one of our favorite people, you know, along the journey as well. So, okay, we got to ask you, for one good thing. It's hard to summate this, but just give us one of Your mantras if we leave with nothing today, what is a one good thing to kind of in this conversation today?
So this may come as a surprise. So, we didn't really get into any Graham wings, but I'm a two week three. I have never been the kind of person who sets measurable goals. I have goals, but they're here and they're here, you know, and so
Pointing to the head and the heart.
Yeah. But I, you know, it's hard for me to go back and think like, oh, I remember when I set that goal or so this year, I thought I'd get a little bit crazy guys and I made a vision board. And I was leaning hard into my four in health and it's colorful, and it's in my closet. And it's, I did this in January because I got real cliche and did it, you know, New Year's resolution and several other things have come to pass and it has been so encouraging for me and I think you know, I might be a vision board person now.
I kind of feel inspired to do it. I've seen this I've never done it. Why haven't we done it? Okay, Birdwell tell people how they can connect with you if they want to learn more about the Enneagram, do you have any great resources or places they want to go? But you hang out on socials? Where can people connect with you?
Well, she's on Instagram with a very professional. Also, yeah. And you can find me at my church's website, TW.church. I'm part of the teaching team. So you can see my teachings there. Our church just started a podcast called We Need to Talk. Yeah, yeah.
Proud of you.
We're like, the first time I listened to it, I was like, that sounds like a podcast. We're doing it. It's me and couple of several other members of our pastoral team and we dig a little deeper into our teachings and take questions. Anyway, it's been so great, guys, thank you for having me. It's been a joy. I'll come back anytime and tell dumb stories or talk Enneagram, whatever you need.
I just really appreciate you coming in giving us this wisdom. I absolutely love sharing my best friend with this community, her heart, her soul. And guys, this is great work. This is a great starting point today, to start understanding yourself, understanding the people around you. I just really encourage you to dive into these resources. We will link them up in the shownotes, please take the test, get on our socials and let us know what type you are. We're definitely gonna be pouring into this into our community. So if you have not joined the community, it's we're for good community.com Please come join us. We're going to be talking about this and working through what it means to have these types of nonprofits. So thank you, Bird for coming in here. Love this conversation and I love you.
Thanks, guys. Love you.
Hey, friends, thanks so much for being here. Did you know we create a landing page for each podcast episode with helpful links, freebies and even shareable graphics? Be sure to check it out at the link in this episode's description. You probably hear it in our voices but we love connecting you with the most innovative people to help you achieve more for your mission than ever before. We'd love for you to join our good community. It's free. And you can think of it as the after party to each podcast episode. You can sign up today at weareforgood.com/Hello. One more thing If you loved what you heard today, would you mind leaving us a podcast rating and review? It means the world to us and your support helps more people find our community. Thanks friends. I'm our producer Julie Confer and our theme song is Sunray by Remy Borsboom.
