Good afternoon lives thank you so much for agreeing to be part of our research
It's a pleasure to
so we'll start with a little bit of background on you Where were you born and raised?
I was born and raised in delcom in the Free State just turned 51 so 51 years ago and yeah recently two weeks ago and I went to school the primary school day and then you won't remember this but you might know that South Africa back then was quite a number of countries so we had 11 countries so there was South Africa and then there was the TB VC stage which was transcribed which has an attendance sky and then there was the six semi independent states which was well I can remember khazamula Congo and Uganda nearly
liberal level wire barbed wire
doesn't yet have passports and everything you know like yes you get into trance Gaya to go via and you know what opposed and due to some of the houses that were proposed you can still see them when you move from the Western Cape to the Eastern Cape, you know, the water houses are still I still have to deal with it. So a lot of our South Africans would then go to high school to boarding schools in those areas because they had better education. Okay, doesn't quite your modesty type of education but it was better because these were self governing countries which then you know, there wasn't any fun to education and in most of them and the Catholic churches from Germany and other areas Ireland had built missionary schools so a lot of us will go to schools that you're in and as soon as possible he was also one of them was semi Independence Day. So I went to Taiwan and trans guy for my high school so two years and the trans guy adventure is the mission and then two years in my real style, which is next to turbine true, which was also put advanta at that time before 1992. So that was my high schooling and then I went to varsity met the guy who was to be my husband we're both 17 in our first year and then in our second year, I couldn't afford the fees so I went to reduce which is one of what was called push universities basically like investees or so. You w c this is also the you need for your super sets on a test log 40 are all called push universities. Except you WC was the only one which was left colloquially actually being called push to versity push right we know we knew transit, but actually adjustment all of the black universities here I'm giving you a history of South Africa at the same time. I love to think about that because people are like wow really was that is happening. And then. So I went to Medusa completed my BSc they and my BSc honors. I did BSc in maths and BSc honors math and psychology and sociology and psychology. And then I started working in the Institute of Behavioral Sciences in the Free State in 1994. I was the first black professional in the Institute, okay. I mean way before even the employment Equity Act at that time they will they decided that they were going to have a black person they didn't have any black people who are professionals. And I mean contrary to to what everybody will believe about the Free State in 1994. That department decided we needed a black person and I mean how God they was a lot of lies that pretended I was white mustard in past for being white, where I stayed past for, you know, we stayed in a suburb, okay. The group is active past and I'd found difficulty with my name's liberal Hunter College to get even an interview. So I just dropped the names and just ld wasty. Yeah, which got me through. But then what started happening was an experience that has formed part of what I still do today. That fight of everything, these white people made it their job to make sure that I succeeded. Right. So check back check back so I'd finished his boarding schools, which meant that my friends, you know, were better off than most black people because they could afford these fees. And, you know, you kind of feel like a princess and everything. And then identify situate UCT upper campus is like 20 black kids and upper campus, you know, it's like the elite of UCT. At fuller and smart.
I'm right at the bottom of the Ron. Right at the bottom, my first year is a blur. I have no clue. Like, I couldn't even tell you whether it was this direction or was just a complete blur. I was lost. I had no mental I had nobody holding my hand. And in contrast to that, when I started work, I had all these people who without me asking, What do you want? What do you need? And six months after I started, I was on a sabbatical for two years. Wow. You know, to do my Master's in psychology and clinical psychology because I thought I wanted to become a clinical psychologist. Which is amazing, right? And my salary was paid for those two years. Like everything, I just didn't go to work, I went to school. Yeah. And then I went to work during holidays. Such as really, it was that time hour to realize later not at that time, I realized later the importance of mentorship. And for people who really had your back for you to be able to move forward. The five years that I spend a lot of what I did was very independent. So the first two years of this year was adversity, assessment 9495 96 and adversity, then 97 back at work, but now I have they have decentralized support my own area in the northern Free State waiting from my parents home. And so I was the age and everything you know, so it was up to me to make sure that things work. Now, when you work for the police, you can appreciate that none of them are coming to the Institute of Behavioral Sciences, you know, it's supposed to be Metro. And so I would sit in the office doing nothing special nothing, you know, so I will start my own. That's where my od mindset started. I've lost complete interest in clinical psychology, I'm not finishing even my thesis, because I'm realizing this is too much for me. I was 23 years old. When I started and when I finished 96 I was 25 going on 26 it was just too much for me. And, and being a black girl in the Free State in the South African Police Services was really tough, you know, and, and tough because I almost almost felt like I had to prove myself especially to my black people, because they would assume they would assume I don't know what they thought I was they wouldn't speak to me those pictures. Even if I'm driving, they would lean over to speak to my passenger because she Oh, here's why they're not to me, you know. But that didn't faze me, man. By then. I was there to be my dad's princess. You know, I know my worth. And, you know, that's your problem. You know, I found quite fascinating, really. And especially when they realize to our elders that they never thought right. And then I got married and then our daughter was when we got married. She was eight years old. And then I'm still in the Free State and he is not in Joburg. Most of our lives. We've been in different places together, and most of our lives together, live together and then 98 I think got a transfer to Joburg then in Johannesburg Central. I don't know. What is it now Johannesburg Central. What was that police station called in Johannesburg the big one. JOHN foster square. Okay. Yeah, but but then it's now john is back Sentra, and now I have a busway. In the free state it was my area of moving into an area that already had a purpose didn't matter, the salary stays the same really. And very clued up. So the three of us, you know, we're doing a lot of od work, because we're realizing that nobody wants to come for counseling So we're gonna do all the work. I mean, we got bored, and we started getting involved with the HR department with recruitment. Okay. And so I put it on my CV as a thing. So it wasn't that it was a system, I put it as what my job was, was doing recruitment and other things. Od, right? So, and then I got burnt out, I got burnt out just too much watching the ceiling and watching the clock waiting for four o'clock to go home just became too much and it wasn't fulfilling. I wasn't earning enough money to even buy my first car. And I'm 28 you know, I can't buy my first car, my friends, you know,
in better jobs, and you know, that's really frustrating. especially coming from where I'm coming from where I was always in the lead, you know, always the first one to do this first one Now, unlike the last one, so I applied for a job at various places. I didn't even know that it was remuneration. I remember in this interview, checkering renumeration, that's how much of HR I didn't know. And they wanted a remuneration specialist and are selling myself as this numeration specialist of a Saturday get the job because they like she doesn't even know that you're familiar, he didn't get the job. But I did get a job at nets team as a recruitment officer, okay, because the tools that they were using at that time were the tools that we had used to, there was a big recruitment drive, to recruit 1000s of policemen countrywide. And that's how we got involved, which was just too much for the HR department or for us. So they invited people from the Institute to come and help with assessments and whatever, and the assessment tools that they used. And at that stage, it was just the people that are no actually don't know anybody else who eventually used it, I can't remember the battery, what it was called. And so I got the job, I think, because of my experience with Apache. And my salary was like, 1.75, more so obviously, right? Two weeks into that job, I get another job offer, which also has, you know, more money. So I resigned from that team. So I only went there for a month and started at mine pension fund in a completely unrelated field as a trust consultant. So basically, when somebody dies, there's big death benefits, right. But with the mines, which I saw the monkey between from everywhere Mozambique resort to restate, wherever they came from everywhere, and the minds didn't have enough information. So people would come and claim benefits and tell lies, or the person who wasn't married didn't. So those complicated cases with me sent upstairs to us. So they needed people with social work and psychology background to investigate this case. So that was my job investigating these complex cases, and making recommendations to the trustees in terms of how to split the death benefit and who the man should be paid to go to a trust or should be paid to a guardian. Should we pay all of it should it split, you know, all of that. And then we'd always wanted to move to Cape Town and we just tried some job that was available at neutrality and also completely unrelated to him. And he got the job. Right, I think this was beginning of the times when people realized that we shouldn't appoint for the degree we should appoint for this skill. So we reach problem solver, let's go find a problem. So you got the job, we moved here and I was back in recruitment, which I hated because I didn't know it really. While I was at it, one of my colleagues got approached for an odd job at f&b and in one of the so they call them catchment areas to go into od for this catchment that it has the city catchment so all the bags in the city and she said this is you because that's how I spoke about myself as an odd person you know and so began a journey of learning od and HR via Google and really good at it because I was really good at my job as a prop I'm a problem solver sometimes overthink I like analyzing my next background came in handy because you know you know making sense of numbers making sense of you know, listeners just count the beans What does it mean that the beans, seven today and tomorrow there's three of them. So they came in very handy and excelled at my job to distribution center for clicks in the national head of human resources and development. They again in an environment that has just you know I'm at that stage I, I hadn't realized that my experience at fnb really made me a financial services person.
Okay.
And that that's that's what I do and enjoy financial services. So I stayed there for 13 months, and then I resigned, it was really bad. I remember resigning and my boss was like, you're not going, you're not going and then when you finally accepted it, and the distribution center has hosted me the head in said, I'm sorry, the telling me that you must go now. So that's how I left. And by then I've become really good at HR and organizational development. I got a job literally, I didn't have a job when I resigned. But two days later interview and then five days later, I got a job at Metropolitan asset managers went to what is head of HR and then got head hunted for hours 100 for that issue. So I was very lucky that came so quickly that I was headhunted for a head of HR at Alan gray. 2006. And that's how it all started. And again, you know, the nice background, I think has helped me imagine that you have somebody from Scott and I had my MBA at that time, as well. Okay. So it entered into into Alan gray, nice journey, really nice journey, I learned a lot. But then I started feeling fake, is it. Yeah. And the imposter syndrome became what I lived with almost every single day, I did not go to work because I felt I was not effective. They're not gonna tell me because I'm the only black executive. So they're not going to be nasty to the only black executive they have. So they have to say that I'm doing a good job and, and I wasn't realizing that it was making it really difficult for my boss to have conversations about performance with me, because he said to me, the last performance appraisal we had ever was, I'm no longer gonna have these because you really make it a typical, I'll tell you what you're doing good. It's almost like you're not hearing it, but are chasing chiapa. And then I start talking about your development areas. And that's where we stay. I feel like I'm this person that's making this achiever leave my office as if she hasn't achieved because you stay so long on these areas of development, when I really would like to have more conversations about the other one, too. And I was happy because he is also very difficult for me, I was happy to do that. And I spoke to my coach about it and she said, Do you know the concept of imposter syndrome? And I'm glad to know and then well I've heard about it but hadn't really checked it. And I'm sure you do know what it is but the problem was in the definition so I was like No, I don't have a process and processes for success what successful people do so that's not me. Okay. You know, I mean everybody who knew me during Alan gray will tell you everybody's thought my opinion you know, we get invited to come in give thoughts on this on that, you know, sitting on boards sitting on advisory committees and and I was just telling myself who I really when I you know how to you know how to sell yourself or you but you know what, let's play small so that nobody catches you that your game. And so I would refuse nominations. I would refuse being put on the spotlight. Because why did they catch me? What if they what if somebody finds out I'm not really as great. And then she got tired of me and then introduced me to Bernie Browns work. Okay. Yeah, vulnerability, shame, worthiness and courage. And so I went to Houston, Texas, but the training got my certification. I was the first in South Africa, as many of us now back in 2014. And I started realizing that at Bethel, there's two things I was battling with vulnerability. So that's why sometimes I called myself a shy extrovert. And that's because when I was vulnerable, I put back national fat and extroverted at dancing tables. I overshare. Sometimes, too soon, you know. And understanding what it meant to embrace vulnerability. Now at that time, I'm also going through a very difficult force
which had with it, it's the most exposed and vulnerable I've ever felt in my life. And had it not been for the fact that I was going through this process. I think those six years I probably would have given up in the second year and gone away with less than what I deserved. Fourth, and I want every hat better, that no woman had actually, one. I also didn't win it, I won that battle in that when the other party realized that the sooner is that fast and she's strong, she's gonna win. Let me just say, because you've been refusing all those six years to settle, right? And for me, it was just the actually want to pull it up the lessons that I think live in August was no, I think I know I think I didn't say, I did a talk I did a talk with was vitality international on exactly what we're talking about. And so I had to embrace that vulnerability in spite of what I feel, I need to focus on feeling worthy. And I remember thinking, why did I, when I was young, it's not that I didn't have battles. But I fought them because I felt worthy. I had to go back to that I had to go back to feeling worthy, and I had kind of somewhat lost it, because I would come home, and I'll be told you nothing, what do you know, I made you, you know, that type of thing. And I think that's what started making me feel like, I wasn't ready, I wasn't great, you know, people are gonna catch me not being great, right? Because that's what I came home to every day, every single day. And it had been like that, since I was 17. I just didn't know, you know, the, the mindfuck of being told you can do something and being challenged to go and do it. And then you're afraid to do it, because you've just been told that you can't do it. You know, and then you do it and you succeed. And then you get told that if it wasn't for something external of you, you'd never succeed, it never succeeded. So there was this noise that really was playing on me. My thesis when I was doing my NBL was on the psychological characteristics of black female entrepreneurs. And the findings they have I didn't see myself in that is that when I did the Renee Browns work. So she This is how she speaks about showing up. Right? As she calls it, the arena moment, getting into this arena going to sing you're going to other than this four types of voices. And I want to explain it I use the stage and because I think that's the tips that South Africans will understand better than the arena. And when you enter the stage, I'm going to sink into soccer or whatever was the loudest voice, the loudest voices, the voices of the cheap seats, right, the Holland's and you don't know them, or you don't know them, but you're sharing them because they're, they're saying you're not worthy. You don't deserve to be there. Why did they choose you and a cloud, cloud cloud and via social media. So those voices and presented by social media, the stories we read, in newspapers and magazines or TV shows that we see, say, FLL doesn't look like you. So as you step into the arena, that's the first indication because it's loud. And then the second thing is the voices of the people in the boxes in the stadium. And who goes to the boxes, the same people, you get invited, and they only invite people who are like them, if you don't like them, you're not waiting. So here you are stepping into the social media says which you fetch, you cannot be an entrepreneur. The boxes are saying, here's the criteria to belong here. And then the fourth, the third one, is what I call the anchor point. She calls it the critic voice. And it's the life script, that that thing that somebody said, Why are you Why would you think you would you know, that that one statement that you realize today flip, that's what made me feel so slow, because somebody when I was 23, someone said to me,
the fat one, skinny one, the poor one, and whatever, that that script stayed with you for so long, that it's defined how you show up in the stage and in the arena in the world. And so, when I was going through all of this, I recognized I was that I was living my life, listening to these voices. And the voice that said, I wasn't good enough. What do I know, I made you, you know, made me when I stepped into the arena, I felt that I wasn't worthy. So I would pull back, I wouldn't play in the arena. I wouldn't go to that thing where they want to celebrate me, because I'm not waiting. And when I realized that I really became a very dangerous foe. Because now you know, you anticipate and you know that walking into the arena into the stadium, it's not about waiting for the voices to die down. You know, they're gonna be there anyway. So you have to make sure that Not one of those was the fault was the one that sees the courage that when you fail, because they know you will fail, sometimes will fall. Sometimes they have empathy. They'll hold you accountable where they're supposed to be accountability in kindness, and you can accept it. And where you don't deserve it, they'll tell you didn't deserve that. And you deserve that. So the noises that were happening in Puerto Rico rejigger you this was very clear in certain quote, I'm not conflicted with this whatsoever. And that's what I'm getting for. You don't believe that, ask me questions, I can place you where I am. You know, I really became very bold at that same time, I've already left Alan gray. And when I left, and this is where the story now begins, really. And so I'm already going through this divorce, and I resigned in July 2013. And what was happening at that time was they were making decisions and some of the decisions. I was patted to, and had recommended some of those. And I remember, every time I would, I would say this is what is needed. But I want you to know that when you implement it, I'm going to leave because not me. But that's what you need. Right. And this is where now the feeling of fake is coming through that maybe this environment is too much for me, maybe people are too bright for me, I need to go and find something. So I resigned. I only realized later that the reason that I said was while I was successful at doing what Alan gray wanted me to do, I wasn't successful at what I set out to do in 1994, which was, I don't want another woman to ever feel the way that I felt in my first stage in the city. I'm gonna do what these people are doing for me this year. I'm gonna do that for other people. And I hadn't done that. So I was fake. And so even though it took 13 months for me to eventually leave in August of 2014 because I think serious business we all thought I was crazy. I wasn't ready because I didn't feel like I was going to make it as an entrepreneur do I really want to do is it the right thing should I rather apply for a job and you know, and and. And it was exactly that time when are starting the brand new brand well, so a month before I actually left I've been to Texas, to do the training. And that helped tremendously to get back to that feeling of worthy and knowing that I shouldn't wait for the voices to die down before I start my own business, knowing that I will fail. And I have to be kind to myself. And I remember the whole of 2014 I only had one client. I was really tired I was going through I realized nothing I was depressed because of what was happening in court. Court exposes you you have to submit all sorts of documents strangers are going to see that oh she's playing the lotto. She's you know she's buying these things why should do so you really feel exposed. You have to submit every bit of your life including the bits that you had hidden that you didn't want to see and people have to read them because that's what code ones that's what he wants and I'm sure he was being just as exposed because it was a two way process. And then and I don't know analyze really help reading other people's stories. Elon Musk's wife story in Mary Claire must be that story. first wife something
that is much every word she puts in. That is exactly my story to the story that she tells where she says to Elon, you're trying to performance management. And Elon say if you were my employee, you'd be fired by now, that happened to every single thing that she was saying it happened to me, it gave me power to feel I'm not alone. I'm not the only intelligent woman who's made stupid decisions. We were in love, we're trusting and we made stupid decisions because we're trusting. We're not gonna find somebody to sign documents because we love them. You don't want to fight. But we actually have to out of love one another. We actually have to sign this news that says if we get divorced, you'll be taken care of. Now I had an antenuptial contract. That was to find out later that didn't protect me from somebody setting up trust. Oh, really, is because when you in an ANC you and I can do whatever we want without each other's permission. So I can create trust and basically be worth nothing and the test is worth it. Because what we've built together is actually what you have because it's in your name, I put nothing in my garden, you
can see, we can share what you've bought human, and share what I've done in the trust,
because it doesn't belong to me. And that's the game that they play, go to the trust, we don't only think go to the trust, you go to the test in the test, they were not married to you. It was really complicated. Issue, my goodness, it is and women I've had many classes
were set up. If you didn't know, these trusts were set up. I did,
but I thought that the ANC will protect me. I mean, that's the first thing thing the ANC came before it. So to protect me, and also I only knew of to eventually the way eight, so six that I didn't know about that I found out via my lawyers and their investigation that there are six others. And they have to reveal all of these things anyway. And also in the process, you know, somebody comes and says, Hey, can you present this baby baby sign this cookie? I mean Harry's for the trust Jenner and you sign and then we realize and the nurses, did you really sign this and you look at it, like that's my signature. You don't know the content because we're just signing things. And that's what I said. So. So that was the fight in court. It wasn't, I wasn't the only one with his wife was going through the same thing. You know. And the reason that there is no law against that is that nobody, no man or woman has ever had enough money to fight through. I was willing to fight through. And I was ready to go back to living in a shack. I mean, I know after going live with my moms, and you know, I'm an educated woman, I can start over, but I refused to let it go as if I was in a coma all of my life.
Imagine,
in my faith. I although I was uncertain, there was nothing that said I was gonna lose. Okay. My tooth was too strong. Yeah, lie was evident. Yeah. And, and my faith really helped me. So when all of this was going on, you know, unexposed and whatever. I'm studying my business, a friend calls and says, or somebody who works at a friend's company somewhere to be an asset management tells the CEO Oh, that, oh, here's a friend college she can do that. So that's how it all started. They're still my clients to this day. And business development was not a thing. So to your research now. Development, I thought at that time was not a thing that I did very well. Okay. All of my life is chained to me. Right? And headhunted for jobs call for this invited for this and I do not have to go out. And my reputation helped. Okay. I bet a lot in the beginning to say what the story was, how do I say? I can't say all around and important solutions is in HR and od consultancy. What the hell does that mean? You know, so I had to find my pitch took me a while to find my pitch I went for coaching JT Fox, I wouldn't advise that you can get the same amount of coaching from other people at like 10% of the cost or even googling Yeah, it's just tough but I learned a lot from him. And he shows that you know, this typical thing it's free and then oh, signing for this 10,000 or signing for this $100 or something but if you don't you stop playing with the psyche you want to be the first one to sign because you want to show that you're not stupid, no, don't fall into that trap. So halfway through it, I was like this thinks I can do it was great that I don't have an ally the book of all these ideas that I gained from him, so it's not like you're not gaining anything, it's just overly priced. Okay, and so found my pitch and when that happens then business started coming in. And I've been very lucky to this day that a lot of business that I have is referrals, right and I have made a lot of mistakes in pitches when you know I wasn't really pitching to the client or not following up with the client like with you not following up with the client and say okay, I'm not getting a response What do I What do you need what else do you need for me to make this work, you know, signing off, and people would agree and then you have to start contract hasn't been signed and then stops halfway. Now the frustrations that you know you would have hiring the wrong people at the business. biggest mistake and they literally will continue in two years after I started was not hiring an assistant Okay, so I did everything myself filled in forms myself. So I spent about 50% of my time doing admin, and got into an office, I thought that would help, it didn't help I really needed an admin person. You need somebody who do those little things. business started growing at some stage at 20 people waiting for me, somebody to figure out the sage payroll, how it works, all of these things, because we don't go into business to manage people, we're going to business to penetrate market, right. And to develop products, that's what we go into. So absolutely, this attack the virtual assistant thing, it didn't work, because they didn't understand my business. So I appointed somebody straight from, because that's what I could afford straight from, from college, and she stuck with me to this day, if she goes, there is so much that, like, I have no clue of so many things, she makes it a smooth running machine. Okay, and for me, it's the best thing that could have ever advised me to do. The second lesson was you can strategize on your own, you have to call in people. So every year, I call in a few friends and we do a closed session, you can do it. For me, we do a planning session, like a company would you know, an expo post parent in the classroom somewhere, except we do it in the office planning, because it then focuses you
on what you need to do. Right? Now I have learned the art of failing, right? rising, strong sobranie is like, she's been really very instrumental. Her research has been not her research has been instrumental in how I show up. Especially when things don't work well, like it's very difficult to make me feel better about myself. I know the difference between accountability and witness. So I know when I didn't submit that report, like there was one that I was supposed to do yesterday. So I will own self accountable if the client comes and says sorry, whatever. So I know when to say you could have done better. And I know when to say I've done my best and it didn't work out. It sucks, you know. So they, they really don't stay there. So that's the biggest lesson have somebody that's going to do all the other schlep work, hire people to do work, you can do it or don't be greedy, because you don't have to pay somebody now you want to do all the work. I don't like recruitment much while I do recruitment. So Boca hired somebody. I mean, she was also it was also very nice that she joined us, she hired a recruitment person to do that. Because I didn't like it. She said she needed help. And she has no conflict whatsoever, I suppose using somebody else's money so she can make these decisions. But it helped to have people helping make big mistakes in terms of hiring, especially the recruitment area, because you're competing with a big agency, so you can pay much. Yeah. So I had to make a very conscious decision to say, we're no longer gonna offer recruitment unless we approached for it. So when bottom left, because you didn't have the appetite for entropy, Euro, whatever she wants certainty of a salary, he got a job at the water plant. So I stopped with recruitment. Not completely, you know, if you're trying to ask whether to as a good cash cow, you know, if business is not coming in, you know, at least pays the bills, but I just didn't have the capacity. It reminded me of that year when we moved to Cape Town, and I hated it so much. And yeah, what are some actually and then lockdown happened, right? And you're, and I'm feeling teary eyed. Because unlike many people, it's been the most productive time in my business. Wow. And none of it asked for. It came to me. So I mean, I'm a woman of faith, I pray a lot and I kind of like the idea that when the human in me can do certain things, there's some supernatural power somewhere that can help you know, connect us like a nice idea. So I stick with it. I don't care what other people eat. I'm very spiritual. And I like to think that you know, the University Board was watching art and business is just a concert, no stage, did we have to stop business, we still have an office, we still pay rent, to pay six salaries and, you know, what are the other salaries pay for themselves because the client pays the salaries. And now bookings also back, you know, so recruitment is up and running again. You know, and then, in the midst of it, my son is 18 in mitrik and is in lockdown person, I'm turning 50, I had these big ideas of what this year was going to be 2020 and none of it happened. And then I got diagnosed with cancer after my birthday, actually was the day to day today. Today, this is exactly how could I forget that? How could I forget that today? Last year was the day that I was diagnosed with breast cancer. And then I started chemo and two days after I started chemo, my mom died. So it's been a rough Yeah, have side effects from chemo. from radiation and operation that didn't heal so well. So I had to get skin grafts. But the business kept running.
If you didn't know if I didn't tell you, you wouldn't know. So I remember posting my last day of chemo and
you have to get a mastectomy.
lumpectomy surgeon take everything out, they just remove the area and the lymph node. So I still go for physio, I'm still very solid and stiff, because I don't have lymph nodes. So there's no drainage. So I have to train it manually. Yeah, I got lots. So that's the least of it just really horrible as you read and using it. So it doesn't, it doesn't a good journey. And every treatment has had its own side effects. And it's all done and that I'm in remission. And now lifetime treatment of hormone therapy, okay. And everything went on in the business didn't stop. And as I said, just the most productive ever, you know, and I don't want to deny it is the research from Bernie brown research from many because I read a lot, I don't finish a book, I just read the past at work. And, you know, I'll Google theory on thing. And then as I google period, something else appears I'll go read up on that. And by the time the day is over, I'm now from theory I'm reading on Trojan. So I'm looking at torsion now, you know, because everything just leads to the next and I'm curious and I'm hungry for information, it's really hard. And it also helps me to package what we about and what we do, and to take work. And the products that we offer are very well researched. So none of it is just my clever thinking. I mean, it could be and to still be good, but a lot of it is really research based and people like that. When you do some of these research. That's great before we come into it here. However, I was very careful not to mention and not to go public about my status, because I knew that clients would then not call because they think he or she is by chance and you know, and it happened with some time because I had to go and do a woman's day talk after I was diagnosed and you know, this became a topic and they were gonna we're gonna do work and after they find out that I will see you next year type of thing. So that's how I saw chapel that until I was done. I'm not gonna go public. That's a lesson on.
Okay.
So I thought that the divorce was the most vulnerable and expose I've ever felt last year what last year was losing my mother was the worst. I remember two months ago, a month, six weeks ago about saying to somebody, this COVID I can't wait until its oversight in cinema legend. And then I realized that deep down in the subconscious I think I'm going to see my mom again after COVID is gone, because that's what took, you know, a long call because she recovered from complications. And that lack of five year old subconsciously I was waiting for her to come back. I call it a crash. Because that Friday, I couldn't think I couldn't do anything, I wouldn't have been able to have this conversation with you. I looked at my laptop like this and I couldn't do anything. And I had lived on the positivity drug for so long that I forgot to say I'm scared. Why is this happening to me? I'm angry. I just wanted to go on with the business. And the lesson there was it's okay to the positive mindset but it's also okay to name they can go together because I was afraid to say instead because I'm thinking if I say that it means I'm not positive actually Those two can go hand in hand. You know? They don't have to be they don't have to be different. So actually know that that page that I wanted to read to you actually did send a screen dump of it to somebody. In terms of the lessons learned to the genius, I'm just waiting for my WhatsApp to open. My computer
is taking forever. And just hold on. Oh, yes, lessons. Are you taking my car? I hope my car will be safe. And shirts. To me made Yeah. We just opened up my phone is taking forever online.
On my chat. Yeah, the learnings. I am worthy, and I am capable of much more than what I'm showing up as Oh, yeah, boundaries. So the other thing that I learned during that whole process is can you still hear me saying here that there's problems with audio? No, no. Yeah. Because I hadn't done that I didn't lay the boundaries. I hadn't learned to say this is not acceptable. And, and for me, it's the four things now what would you fight for? What do I need to be clear about it because I was clear about those things. I didn't doubt my fat. And for me, it's my god and spirituality. It's justice. It is the practice of courage and it's empowerment of women. Those way, the honors that I went into this, this arena with, you know, if you're not clear about why you're doing something, it's very easy than to let go. Because you don't know what the price is. I learned that there were no guarantees when you show up naked, but I had to learn to do the songs that I was telling you about, because they're not going anywhere, I can't wait for them to go anywhere, they're not leaving. And then I am flawed, I will fall I will stumble, but I will finish. And in that process, I had to be kind to myself and running a business, it's all about about these things, you know, why are you doing what you do is it because you want to be better than you know somebody else. Because you believe in this thing that you believing. And when a client asks for something that you know, you're not good at, you know, we don't go and put resources into it. And you have to be very clear on what it is that you about. And you will follow that you know, finish. And then the joy of practicing courage and embracing vulnerability, when a client bad feedback when a client pulls out, you know, all of these things, or when you make mistakes, and you have to learn and, you know, apologize, fix it and do better next time. And, you know, things that have happened, have happened. A post mortem, only helps. It's about what can I learn from it? Yeah, you know, not if you lamenting on what could have been, you know, silence day in what has happened, it has happened, it's gone. And that, you know, what I feel can exist in tandem with a positive mindset. But the biggest thing ever, now was me waking up one day and realizing that I don't dream about cancer in my dreams, I don't have cancer, okay. And it's a powerful analogy of how big our genes are, and that we then have to have goals for them. Our dreams shouldn't have the cancer off, you're not worthy. You can't do it. But if you fail, my dreams don't have concerns not because I feel that I'm perfect. I know I'm flawed. All of those things when I dream I still have cancer when I dream, but it's not in the dreams. It's when I wake up so dream big and and go out there and don't limit yourself. And that's the story.
Beautiful, beautiful.
Any questions? Are you got enough?
I think the biggest ones I'd like to ask is just like for you personally, what do you feel has been your biggest challenge on this journey intrapreneurship any business development
product so HR and od are very generic and how people see it, it's very general. So you actually have to be present, describe your product that, although it's called change management, mine looks like this, you know, and this is how I can custom make it for you, and not to generalize it, and then to being able to coach your clients, because sometimes clients can say, this is what we need the art of saying, let's go back, how did you get to the conclusion that that's what you need? Because once you ask that question, you realize actually, that they need something completely different to where they came to you saying that they need. So making your product unique, has made my product unique, has been not challenging, but it's something that can be, it's time consuming. And you have to be very clear about it. having the courage to say, now that I know that I can't make it unique, do I want to carry on with it? Or if I carry on with it, how do I carry on with it, knowing what I know. So product, and then business development. Also, before I just remind me, business development would be the third one. The second one is me as a product, okay? So I don't sell sweets, that I can go home and somebody continues solicit, I am the product, I'm the certified person who does the courage work, I'm the person that has the knowledge, to facilitate the session, the person who's done the research to get people to think in different ways. So while Yes, I can teach people and still the product. And when I say off the shelf, you know. And then, then the challenge of me being the product being it then requires you to teach other people. So the balance of now you've got somebody else that's doing it, you're not earning that much. Now you got to share this money, you gotta have an abundance mentality, to say, I will share 100 grands with another person instead of keeping 20 rounds to myself when I'm working. Because the two of us can go and make 100 friends, but me alone will only make 20. Right? So having an abundance mentality, that's a challenge. That's a challenge, you know, and it's less of a challenge when the cash cows waiting, because you're not worried. If money is not an issue, you make the right decision. And then business development, you've got to learn the art of doing business development. And it's the pitch. Okay. It really is the pitch and and who you're pitching to, so that those two minutes or three minutes or whatever, they want to continue the conversation with you. Yeah.
And your biggest successes.
The uniqueness of what I offer. Okay, right. And being, as I say, being able to speak uniquely to the product that the client is left. Wow, I mean, I think I do I mean, this is an interview so I can be boastful.
Part of what I want to hear, because I think particularly for black women, we do have a challenge with just, yeah.
I have had 90% of the time I leave people with when should we do this? Like why I think sometimes it's because they don't expect it as a black person. But a lot of times, it's because they haven't seen things the way that I make them see it, especially when it comes to how we make decisions about people and unconscious bias conversations as well. It's just amazes people that there's so much that can be done that we don't think of because people go to the shop, and they pull a book off the shelf, and they think that's the solution. You know. And then secondly, my networks. I mean, that's that's been my business, my business exists because of networks finish. And I think 80% of what I have is that got it, like 100%, you know, and the ability to, to, to, to to to to so I put this contract in a shot, right, doing unconscious bias, work with them, and doing it well enough that parents who are CEOs and HR executives are calling and saying, Oh, I understand that bishops and I see that you're doing this, can you have a chat? You know, keep your networks open, is it the mistake that we make as entrepreneurs I fell into the chat is we stopped going to conferences. We stopped going to the streams where we are exposed because it doesn't any man you have to spend money to pay for the conference. Have to expose yourself. Go talk Go to your presentation. And I started doing research and then presenting the results of the research for free at HR galleries. And during that process, you able to position yourself, you know, so business development is not just calling and say, Hey, by the way I do this you can come and meet or sending, you know, MailChimp to people who have just deleted instances being present in people and people forgot about me, people are like, hey, it was late, because everybody knew I was everywhere. Now it was like, Oh, well, and which was good, because I was being invited because I was the HR executive, Alan gray. Now I get invited, because I'm, you know, the MD of empathy for solutions, you know, did my own ticket. So networks have been really, really, really, really great. And yeah, product, be very clear about your product, make it very unique, be able to pitch it very well. And the ability to penetrate market, it's going to be highly reliant for me, it's been highly reliant on networks and doing a good job, nobody's gonna refer you.
Absolutely.
And I suppose not not being despondent when you fail, you can because it's just you. And you're afraid to tell other people because the shame of that they then whatever, and become comfortable and know where to go to, to say a friend. That happened, you know? Yeah. You have to speak it. Shame guys when you speak it?
For sure. Yeah. It's a quotable, quote, shame. Cool. Thank you. So, so much. This has been an I was not expecting this story, to take so many of these turns. Thank you for sharing earnestly and authentically, I really appreciate it.
It's a pleasure. So the reason I share the story that much is that the entrepreneur in me doesn't exist outside of that story.
I pre agreed. It's it's integrated, right? You're a human being at the end of the day. Yeah.