In a short stretch of time, from the mid 90s, to the early 2000s, a relatively small group of people started playing around with this thing called the World Wide Web. They had the audacity to think they just might change the world. This project introduces you to the big players from those hallowed days, and let them tell you what it was like and how you should have been there.
episode nine Tales from the pit we're going to be talking to Paul galley. He was employee number one@agency.com. And Jeff banner who was a killer designer back then he's probably still a killer designer.
ritesh Mr. Sherman, Sir, how are you?
It is Friday.
Friday, exactly right.
Time to go in the Wayback Machine.
Things are good. Then Denver. You had a lot of snow here, right? Yeah, we
had maybe in the mountains down here. We had four or five inches. It wasn't bad. Not too bad. It's the minor shoveling. It's not East Coast now. And it's sunny today. So
I was talking to my brother yesterday in London and they had an inch and the whole city shut down. Yeah. didn't know what to do.
Amazing, right? Well,
no, we got Paul. Paul in 20 years, I think, right.
I know. It's crazy. Well, before we get to that, let's do our little, our little housekeeping stuff. So if you're watching this check out you should a.com you can see upcoming guests. We have some fun shows coming up. You can see past episodes. You can read transcripts, you can get audio podcasts, we're on all the platforms, we are influencers, but without an audience but
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Alright, let's bring these guys on rock calm. There is Paul galley. Jeff Bednar, gentlemen. Oh.
And he used that word very loosely. gentlemen.
Welcome, great to see you guys. What a day. Doing this. This is great.
Fantastic. Why don't you we'll talk about sort of what you did back in the day. Why don't you do a quick little intro of you know, who you are and what you're doing these days? And then we'll we'll dial the time machine back.
So maybe Jeff, why don't you go first?
Alright. Well, I think I was employee number 10. Like pushed it into double digits, like way back in. I don't even know what year that was. triple the
growth. Yeah.
If it was less than 40. We were 46 people at 665. That was all in 95. Or not having to the Americans. Yeah,
yeah. But this was at that time life building. But anyway. Yeah, I was the first staff creative person to work other than Kyle
Collins and creative. Just there.
I played played a creative person on the internet. Yeah, you were the first person with actual talent to be. Yeah, and what are you doing these days?
After like, a long and like roller coaster ride through you. know.com insanity, worked at a whole bunch of different places. I kind of just bailed on the internet. And now I'm a photographer. And I own a photo studio and in Brooklyn. Oh, very cool. Yeah. So I don't do I don't I barely have a look at the Internet. Yeah, I just do. Yeah, I was freelancing doing web web and UX stuff. apps and whatever but like yeah, about five years ago but six years ago I just kind of gave up on all that Oh, no. photographer and then run the studio here.
Yeah, very cool. Yeah the the analog world has some interesting you know attributes can be fun Yeah. And and and Paul it like we use we know you as poopy King or poopy are you I assume you're not going by that or are you
still no, but maybe after this
viral? I was actually trying to remember where that I think that would come from. I think it was the backstory of that was when I this is funny. When I was asked probably isn't funny, but when I was signing up for an email address for like, you know, back when you did that with an ISP,
yeah.
Hall somehow my name, some of my name is Taylor. It was late at night My name is taken. And my sister recently told me the story about I used to call myself that when I was a kid movie. Oh, yeah. So there's always a movie King. So I was like, oh, whatever. It's a stupid email address. This will never stick. But then you know, everyone Of course, in this world that I got to know about nobody from that so
so your poopy King does?
kind of tie. You know, I pulled the ripcord on the internet industry. for better for worse in 2000 or 2001. Yeah, doesn't one and it's just it never it didn't travel. Yes. An air gap there. Yeah. air gap and it went away.
Alright, that's my way. And what do you feel free? Feel free.
I aim to call you poopy King from now feel free to continue.
It warms the cockles of my heart.
What are you up to these days?
I so I got into a kind of transition into product design. So I guess I liked the designing the design stuff in the web world, but I wasn't I got bored with the end result, I guess at some point. And I was like, Oh, really rather than just like, make stuff. Real stuff. So So now I yeah, I'm in the stuff business. Furniture
product. Nice. Nice. And where are you doing that? Where are you based?
I'm over. I'm at West down. So I head up the teams. I head up half the furniture team. Okay. So
nine categories. So
very good. All right. Well, so so so let's do it. Let's I would love to hear from you. You know, how did it begin? I you know, I met you when you were working at vibe magazine. But what was your like? How did you get into the internet? Like what were you doing? How did you end up Have I
get everyone at that time I kind of fell backwards into it, I guess I was I was working for so I had an English degree in college. I worked as a copywriter, which was terrible. And then I worked as a stock boy at a cosmetics store, which was also was probably more fun but paid even worse. Yeah. And then I threw through somebody met Chan and started interning and vibe magazine. So combined. I was like, Oh, I love music. Want to get into writing. But then of course, Chan was in charge of marketing. But like that's close enough. All like we were on my way in there. So I started as an intern there. I think he may have hired me at some point. I don't remember. I feel like he did hire me at some point. And then Kyle started this creepy guy started showing up towards the end of the day at night and they'd go in the office together I didn't know what was going on. But around the time Chad had started
through what was that called the time life thing. The Pathfinder Thank you so he had started Pathfinder and then I saw I kind of fell into doing the web stuff as much as anyone knew how to do it and then at some points like I'm gonna start I'm gonna start a company with this guy you want to come and I was like sure I'm broke anyway and as we broke the prospects right? Like what's the difference? Like at least this feels like a go into grow into something.
So you come on we went off we went
Come on after we did we did we did we already have offices in time live for Did you kind of join us? Were we still in that nebulous working from a park bench?
I think you were like you were doing some stuff from your apartment. We were doing some stuff out of Chan's office. But yeah, no, I was as as far as I know there from day one of being in like the time life building, you guys brokered some shady deal to get some space
and computers and computers and we were right over the loading dock. I remember diesel fumes.
Were probably one of the early architects of TapeNet™. Oh, yeah, I
may have I may have helped install tip TapeNet™
Yeah,
did when we left the day we left it like truly collapsed. I remember it was like a net of wires.
tape that has become so legendary on these caught on these shows.
It's like why wait. A real life lesson and tape.
Very cool. badness. So So what how did you What was your path to internet stardom?
I was working at an awful job. Great director.
And you went through a proper big ad agency that yes,
I went to school for graphic design and wanted to work in advertising came from Philly. And so that was like the second job I had in New York. And I hated it. I was making literally making junk mail. The credit Bill you know, like, see ya, you know, whatever.
Right remember those things?
sighs right freestanding inserts
this thick. Lots of therapy. I blocked all that out. I my art director, my boss was Chan's sister. And I done a project for her with like my little icons or something. And she's like, hey, my brother's starting this internet thing. I don't know what that is. But he needs icons. Do you want to like go do that? Is it? Sure. You know, I was getting like, I don't what I was making at that job. And I'd take any freelance I could get and I emailed Chad and he's like, Yeah, come in. Come to me because you're already at the time like building somebody's address. Oh, my god the time literally. Go there and get off on the third floor. Fourth floor. Okay. Yeah, it wasn't like a high floor. But
you know, the old treadmill offices. Yeah.
So I get there and like, it's this creepy kind of weird hallway. And then you go to this like a carpet. I remember the carpet. Crazy carpet. It smells like Mountain Dew. And I found Chan we started talking. And yeah, he gave me although then I went to talk, Kyle. And you gave me like American Express's homepage do as a freelancer. Yeah. So I'm in I go back to my desk. Gray. And I'm like, designing American Express's first website in my cubicle.
The American Express student site where you were responsible for putting the sunglasses on the gladiator were you?
Yes. Somehow we snuck that by the brand police. Yeah,
we got that through. We somehow convinced I guess Monica freed was our client at that point. And I think she thought it was a good idea. And I got it done.
Yeah, that was amazing that you could actually do something with this century. And the way you did it that, you know,
it was funny, because I remember I hired an illustrator, like a legit illustrator to do that. And he, he was older, like, he did not understand what we were trying to do. I gave him like the big picture, but I'm like, you got to draw everything separately. He didn't get it. It was a real challenge.
Oh, wow. That's crazy.
So did that as a freelancer then you guys hired me full time.
Oh, cool. Wow, that's great. That's that's actually a pretty fun first gig, huh?
Yeah, I was like, this was cool. I had been on the internet like, five times before that. I barely knew what I was doing. It was all like on AOL. Like I didn't even really know what the internet was. So
yeah, everything. Okay, well. Hey, ritesh I think that we've been called out, Brad. Brad. Hey, Brad.
Creative guy who joined us once.
What do you what do you think? Do you like it? I COVID mullet?
Exactly. I refused to go to the barber. I'm scared of getting into pirate so I'm just letting it be. What the heck? Besides it makes me look intelligent halfway. So here you guys are Paul arrives. While you're there. Day one. You're hanging out with these guys? Well, it must have been quite amazing to be able to do something in a dial up modem mode. And then see it come to life on some website somewhere. Did you sort of go What am I doing here? Or is this because you know you're the writer. You're an English major. You're working in vibe magazine, and all of a sudden you do this stuff? Yeah, I
mean,
I just I mean, honestly, I just liked that it was. I like that no one knew what they were doing.
It was kind of it was very liberating to be 22. And oh, I'm kind of like expert level. Yeah.
Yeah. Because
literally like there's no I was remembering there was no, you know, we're doing HTML, right. So there was no books on how to Oh, yeah, I remember might have been Clay Shirky and printed me out like a like a little pamphlet that he had downloaded from God knows a message board. And he had pieced together about how to do like how to build websites essentially. Which just totally jive with my personal I just love that it was just like a bit of a free for all and right just kind of had to go for it. Like it was sort of great. So
when did we using the term Site Builder because we eventually started calling the HTML guys site builders, right where your site builder
probably Yeah, like I wasn't I didn't have any graphic design degree, or any degree. degree that would be relevant, but none of us did. It's like You're a theater major. I don't even know what Chad was wondering what his degree was in fiction, like clay was clay was like a lighting designer or a painter or something. I don't even know what he did like. Yeah. And we all just it's kind of like you want to do it or not like he just dove right in, right. And then we, you know, we got people with degrees, like Jeff, who had some skills.
Yeah. And then everything
else was just self taught. Like it was sort of great. Yeah.
And, Jeff, How was it for you? I mean, you you were working in some big agency, right, with, like, one of the oldest sort of big name, iconic names, you know, gray at that time was the granddaddy of the agencies. And then you come to these reprobates, and you're number 10. Was it? Yeah. Oh, my God, what have I done? Or you're like, wow, this is actually cool.
It was a little bit of both. Yeah,
I mean, I never really enjoyed working at grey, it was. I've historically not liked, like big companies. I always like the smaller, kind of like, GTP kind of thing. So I think I think I did take a pay cut to come work there at agency about not that I was making a lot, but it was definitely more exciting. Yeah. And more interesting. And yeah, it was like new. And you know, like, it was way better than making junk mail.
Every day was exciting, right? Because you're going to try and figure something out. The next day you come in, and you Oh, wow. I'm gonna figure this out next. Right.
And we were making it up every day. Like every day, it was like a new problem to solve. And, you know, we're pushing technologies, what, what you would call technology back then, you know, pushing it as hard as we could. And, you know, we would sit around and like, how do we make this and we would figure it out. So yes, cool. It was cool.
You remember geek Intel's? Oh, yeah. Yeah. You can tell like, I think I remember that. We had Scott ager on and and the the one I remembered, I think Scott was the one that came up with the for the center tag existed in HTML. I think Scott was the one that came up with a set of different sized GIF images where you could switch text to the center or something. And it was like, Oh, we should teach each other what we
remember being excited about new browser releases. Boy, like, you can do whatever,
like,
yeah, it was like two new things. Yeah. Yeah. Of course, then would like break, it would also break what you had done. So yeah. Yeah. But then it did open up new opportunities.
So what? So the the, I think the name that it certainly got, you know, immortalized at 665. But I think we call it the pit at the time Inc. Building. Do you remember Think
so? Yeah, aim came.
I remember, Chan had some idea
that, like,
I remember, he wanted to build this mythology of the people building the site, I sent this vague memory of that, and like, so he could bring clients in and be like,
Oh, that's the power. That's,
that's where it happens. You know, it's like to kind of because there was so much mystery around it, right, that he could like keep up the mystery. So I think I was more than happy to be in the pit. That was fine.
But and what what was, what was it like, you know, in those early days, so we grew from, you know, the three of us to I think 46 people before we left left the timing building, like tribe, that first nine month period,
where that was only nine months,
nine months, nine months.
I probably worked about three years worth of time in nine months. It was just I mean, it was a great in general I my memory was it was kind of a great energy. A lot everyone was kind of young, everyone is figuring it out. It was hard to have too much of an ego because no one really knew what they were doing. So it's not like so you could be like, oh, someone says the real expert. Like it was a lot of I don't remember it is like a fair amount of camaraderie. And yeah, just like common purpose. Which, yeah, which was great. I mean, it was sort of a weird, they felt like an extension of college, like the vibe a little bit. Oh, that's interesting.
Yeah.
You know, cuz it was just kind of like, you're, they're figuring it out. You're meeting people. I just remember we would like work really hard. And then we'd all go out. Like, yep, that's my memory that it was just like, a lot. We've worked hard played hard kind of thing. And it was, you know, but you get up the next day and do it again. I mean, I never got home before. I don't even know a midnight 11. Like you work till eight or nine, go out for a couple hours. Go home. And then.
Yep, I remember it was like 12 to 14 hour days, seven days a week. We essentially in January of 95. And I remember in September of 95 was the first weekend. I could we had hired enough people that I could take a day off. So I just I and I remember it being like my physical body was so exhausted. I was like, oh, like when people talk about being exhausted. I actually don't know what that means. Because I remember taking off a day in September, and I was like, Oh, this is a big deal. And
yeah, I vividly remember being in a cab with clay going back to Brooklyn. And we were so giddy that it was light outside. We hadn't like been outside. In the late in that window at the office, it was like Vegas because the office had no windows. Yeah, exactly. You never knew what time of day it was. work and work and work and everyone was into it. You know? So it was?
Yeah. How about how about you, Jeff? What do you what do you remember from the those? Those formative days in the, in the dark, dank offices in the timing ink building?
Yeah, basically what Paul said it was like an extension of college. super friendly. Everybody was really cool. Any friction came out of just people being really passionate about what they were trying to what we were trying to do it was I really don't think I can't really remember anybody that we like I had a friction with it was really everybody was really chill. And yeah, we'd work late. But only not because it was like, pressuring like, deadlines. It's because we liked it.
Yeah. I think I think we got a sort of a shitty reputation as an industry for like, overworking, you know, the people but but it really was like you were doing it because it was like, holy crap. We figured that out. Like, no, it was Yeah, those those those came
later, like having to work with clients. Yeah.
Yeah.
But in the beginning, it was fun.
So now you're you're 40 people moving to 665. Broadway. That's when, you know, when I joined when were 665 Broadway, and the pit was legend by then you have to go around the corner down those steps. And you know, did the culture change? For you two guys, did you feel a difference? As the company started to grow? Or because of the way it was all set up? You didn't see that much of a difference of what you were trying to do? Because he was still pioneering stuff in 9697 98. Right. We're still figuring stuff out.
I mean, the stakes got higher,
I guess, right? Yeah, exactly.
So you know, it's sort of like you felt the it's a bit of a Yeah, I think collectively the pressure went up, which is down and to be expected. Right? It's like, so you have probably company you guys probably have a big lease. You had to like, you know, you're getting bigger and bigger clients, the stages getting bigger.
Well, I'm also interested, right, so
Yeah, that's true. So that changed it to for better and for worse, right? Yep. Yep.
What was that? What was the difference working from from the that initial group at the timing building? To the time at 665? Like, what was 665? Like?
That's interesting. What was the difference? Well, the
ball was closer, I think, right? There was a,
it was your downtown. I mean, the bars are kind of terrible. So it wants to hang out with brokers. I don't know, I guess I guess the same thing. It just felt like oh, this it suddenly felt very grown up. And then something about that.
I don't want to say it took the fun away.
I didn't take the fun away. It just took like the it just felt before like, I don't know, like, we're just trying it right. It didn't like is maybe this will work kind of vibe. And then all of a sudden, it's like, oh, I guess this is working? Oh, real, real opposite. And that comes with real pressures. And
yeah, real. How about you? What was the what was the difference in? We had the official pivot, except Yeah, it became like a real job.
You know, client pressures. You know, we have more people so that, you know, and there was a little more challenges interacting with certain people like us, but I'm
managing.
And then there's that I was gonna say, like, you know, I don't remember how old it was. It was like, 20 something, but like, I'm in charge of, like, 1215 people, you know, I, I went from like, being, like, the junior designer, making like Bill inserts to like, being in charge of a bunch of people. And it was, I didn't have like a frame of reference. I never, I didn't have like, a series of bosses that I had learned from over the years. So it was kind of weird to be put in this position where, yeah, like, I'm the authority and some level on this and being in my 20. So, yeah, that was a little weird.
Yeah. Yeah. You're they're free to ruin anyone's life that comes across you.
Yeah, wait with the with the added workload and responsibilities, whatever. We played harder to like, yeah, I had turntables in my office and we played, we had beer Fridays, and we had backroads. And we had all these other because like, the money was so weird, like, it was just, I don't know, we had all these perks that were coming to us. And so while we did, you know, it got a little bit more like, like we're working harder.
We played it harder to I think that's interesting. hoobie I, the you and I talked last night briefly, one of the things I remember is, you you've been working as a site builder for a while, and a lot of other folks are getting promoted into management and you didn't they? And I think at one point, you said, You know, I think I want to be promoted, like, cuz I've been here for a while and Right, right, I want more money. I don't but but like, that came with it. And then so we promoted you to manager and I remember shortly, shortly after that, maybe a month or two, you came into my office and said, Yeah, I don't like
it. It was like I was mad. I remember I was managing a big group of people. And I was like, I'm I'm good at this. If it's a small team, you know, it's just like, but it would it becomes just like people parading into your office, where they're just like have this complaint or that complaint. It just felt like pubic hair, like being a jar or something. Yeah, that was my memory. And I was like, I don't, I didn't sign up for this. Like, I want to work with people to make cool stuff. Yeah, as a team and help, like, guide that. But I don't, you know, it's like, I felt like I maybe wasn't ready at that point for like that level, or, you know what I mean? Where it just becomes about, like, personality negotiation, everyone was young and emotional. And I don't know, and it didn't really work before. So that comes with its own set of challenges. You know, you don't have like the vets in the office who are like, calm the waters a little bit like just a job, like, you know, I mean, like, it all became very, like, personal and emotional.
I remember that one. So who was it? I can't remember who it was, is it? You know, later in the years? Somebody said, it feels like I'm running a Romper Room? Yeah. Yeah, make sure you share properly, you know, make sure that you go work with the, you know, that sort of thing. You can't move seats, because you don't like the person.
Yeah, it's like, yeah, I mean, it was again, there's like no grown ups. Yeah, it was amazing, are not many grown ups include myself in the not grown up pile. So we were all though.
The thing that hit that hit me about that. When when, when that when that happened to you, Paul, when you came into my office and said, You know, I don't want to do this management thing. That for me a shift in I think we put together It was like it was like black belts in karate, like you could get promoted being a Dewar, as opposed to moving into management, because what I learned in that is there's people that are really good at doing, and in a lot of organizations, they don't have opportunities to sort of progress up a promotion chain, but they want to keep doing and so so I think we tried to put something like that in like, you know, you can be your person and mentor lots of people but not be in management. And I think that was you know that that was something I learned from that.
I remember vividly having a conversation with James McHugh remember the Mad Scotsman James McHugh. Yeah. I remember one day he came into me because we were promoting people and moving people around and all that sort of thing. And he said, it is thicker Scottish accent. I don't want to ever effing manage anybody. I just want to be the best Java developer I can be. Don't do that to me. You know, there's like, Oh, okay. That's all we'll make you do. We'll put your projects to development. So the irony is now he's managing a department of 50 you know? We all grew
up okay. I wish I want to shift gears here.
Oh, he comes up wrong. He comes up.
We showed that before that's the guy from urban. Mr. Bednar. Do you remember that? Oh, I
remember that. Oh,
man. Yeah, I remember that.
What is this a Nike Pitch Book? No really is
Geoffrey Badner hand-built these... he hand stretched? The Am I remembering this right? is this?
Let Jeff Tell us about it. How did this happen?
Wow. I haven't seen that since, like 10 minutes after I made it. I remember. I remember like, I remember Gene escobal. Like Yeah, like should we put that together? I But yeah, I remember we made a bunch of copies because you know, you're handing them out at like the meeting. We made a dozen of them, I guess. But yeah, they're all printed out and handed me a CD ROM.
That was that was Yeah, that was the night. That was one where we were super proud of that of all the innovative ideas. We went in there we went and Nike and they were like, yeah, we've tried all that two years ago. You guys are losing. We did end up getting worked out of it. But that was a pitch I was really really proud of that that uh, you know,
we did a gig for we did a Rinaldo microsite and we did something for tiger woods to
jump in 23 that was the first site we did for them. And then yeah, the Ronaldo was neck. And we did the Ronaldo night when I still football was the brown pointy thing
that we did it was made out of Shockwave. It wasn't even flash it was shot. Yeah.
Fully spun.
Yeah, amazing.
So talk, I mean, either of you, I'd love to just hear that. This is the sort of section of the show we like to talk about, like, you know, what was innovative. Like, let's shift gears and talk about some of the projects we did. You know, whatever we can remember, like, I know, we're all old and it was a long time ago. But like, what sticks in your mind from back then of like, this was something that we did that I was really excited about, or I thought, you know, innovated or made a difference, or,
Oh, I can't believe I actually pulled it off.
Yeah. Wow.
I have a weird I have the weird the one memory I have. Because I think about every time I drive through Times Square, and I actually couldn't even tell you whether it was innovative, but trying to live webstream the British Airways launch in Time Square.
Yeah, you convince some guy to use his camera or something.
I you know, it's this is classic me I can't remember all the details. But it's like, I just remember just it felt very for a thing that was for a big corporation that was supposed to be real. It felt very, like seat of our pants. I can't remember why I did it with I just remember having like multiple laptops and a webcam on top of a building or something in Times Square. And I remember that. Because every time I drive by it, I think like man, that was Yeah, quite a thing. But
it was it was a half scale model of the Concorde. That's what it was. Yeah, blowing onto the top of the Daily News building, I think is what it was it something like that. Yeah. 42nd and whatever. Seventh. And yeah, Scott major was running a phone wire from like, the ground floor.
Scott and I did it together.
Yeah.
And we were sitting where they were lowering the plane where you're sitting on that deck with hard hats on. And a little webcam? Yeah.
I was just like, really, I was just gonna be like, really, like, this is the thing someone would want to watch. I remember
training us to do this. This is where
it's funny. You know, maybe that's the difference between you and me. I was like, Oh, this is so exciting.
My dad would watch it, maybe I don't know.
But we had Jr. On last week. And she was she remembers that vividly the
day everyone else. Everyone else.
That's good. That's good. So it did make an impact. Paul? Well,
I don't know if that's innovative or not?
Well, it was I mean, he couldn't stream anything live in those days. Right. I mean, come on. So running a phone line down from a roof somewhere. You know, I can't major recall this as well, on our first show. Yeah.
And I think I think that we had to write a JavaScript that basically took a screenshot or took a photo.
Yeah, that sounds right.
uploaded it and then took another one. So I think we were streaming it, you know, a frame every two seconds or something like that. It was really exciting.
And scintillating.
Yeah. Herky jerky,
playing, watching grass grow comes to mind. Exactly. What you think about it, you know, even serious when, you know, the guy who founded Sirius came to our office at the exchange, and said, I want to stream music on the web. I remember having a conversation with Chris Stetson. And Chris was like, Are you mad? Like, you want to do what we have to screen and we have to take the artist and the track and marry it and and we'd have to build a player. I'm sure we'll have to build a player of some sort to play the music. I can't do this. We can't do this.
Jeff, Jeff, anything you remember from those days from from projects you worked on at any of the urban desires, or anything like what what? What's the stuff that sticks in your mind?
It's funny, I was thinking about it. Because, you know, I'm kind of techie but not techie. For like, most of the people that worked at an agency and so it was was less about the projects and more about the experience of making the projects for me. Right, right. That was what was cool and I wanted always stood out for me it was we talked about the Ronaldo thing that we did for Nike. Yeah. And I remember the the brand manager, the guy who was in charge of the project, like he came in, and he was Brazilian. And he gave this presentation like, as part of his like, explaining, like, who went out, I didn't even know who it was. He showed these clips. And we're all sitting in like the conference room. He's like, projecting up on the wall. And he's, he's explaining to us like the difference between Brazilian soccer, football and like American or even European. Yeah, and let me passion isn't his excitement about it was like, it was really infectious, like because it was like myself, and like some other creative people that are on my team. And, like, that experience really stuck in my head. And like, we all became really fired up about, you know, making this cool experience for him. And it was it was things like that, that really stuck with me less less about, like, you know, what, tech nology to reuse, or, you know, how do we solve the problem? It was really about, like, the people and like, the experiences, that's what really stuck with me.
Were there any other projects that you like, you know, any connections we made, like, you know, team members, are you still talk to them this day, or that you think about, like any of that kind of stuff? It's, you
know, you know, I still talk to you is john Mack. No, really? Yeah. So, you know, john, he was like this crazy, weird scientist. And he was very long email exchange for a while we're both fans of like, Hunter Thompson. Oh, yeah. I don't know if you've ever read some 100 Thompson's letters, like he used to write these letters to businesses or companies that he didn't like, and whatever, john and i had this like, back and forth for weeks, like writing these like, like letters do emails to each other. And I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna do with you. But like, come in, and I'll find something for you to do. And he became one of like, the core people of the company, like he was just passionate about whatever it is he set his mind to. And he was really interested in having him.
Whereas John's john today, I think, because he went to Adobe for a while, right? Was he working at Adobe?
And I think he went on to Google eventually.
I remember he went to Adobe, I was like, oh, he'll do well, then he ends up running Photoshop. Or, like, even if you're young, you're like, oh, he's gonna Yeah, he's gonna write you.
One of those out, right? There was always that one. When they came, you go,
I was like, ben jones, ben jones got hired as my copywriter. And like a day, and I was like, Oh, this guy's like, 40 times smarter than I am. Yeah, he's, he's gonna go into great things.
Yeah. We had been on a couple of weeks ago, and he said he was smarter than you, which was Yeah.
Yeah, I think my TED talks are coming up soon. Yeah,
I'm gonna Trump his I'm going to Trump as
there was Doug the wacky intern. There was Oh, yeah. Yeah. There was George Ede was was someone I don't you guys might have been gone by now. I remember Georgie. uriarra was was one of the crazy ones.
And George has done very well. George has done very well, you know, the little agency in Brooklyn and you know, the curb stuff. You know, he's done very well.
Yeah.
Wow. That's amazing. But I think the other one was, I think Mitch reminded us of this when he sent us the email the other day, Marsha, when she came in and all that, all of a sudden, we were doing luxury retail. Right? And all of those days and the creatives will just go Okay, what are we doing next? What we're doing next, you know, yeah, it was amazing. Absolutely. PJ, what about PJ?
PJ is doing good PJ's got a new company called imagine
Can you go after after a little bit with us? He went out west didn't me wasn't there. Somebody wanted to go work? And Lucas. What are you guys ended up and Lucas? I thought it was PJ. No, no, no. have to look it up. Yeah. See, we're all getting old guys going to smash it? said yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about
was so so so let's let's shift gears then, you know, like talk about, you know, when when did you leave agency COMM And it was kind of the journey. It sounds like you've both you've both gone analog. And Jeff, you and I were talking on your hand. And you're like I'm making furniture and you went on to make furniture. So apparently real world lead you straight into, you know, making chairs apparently. But But like, you know, talk about that that shift from you know, when you left agency, what did you take with you, you know, what did you leave behind and say never again, like, you know what, whether it was work or relationships, I would love to just hear that.
Actually before you do that, Jeff, just quick hello to Lauren stanovich Hey, Lauren. Okay, so Jeff,
um, well, I
left. I left twice.
It's also the first time
explain that. Ah, the interwebs. We need Nick. Jeff more than a dial up modem I think we should
say he was he was having issues. So Oh,
okay. Not a bad frozen picture though. Yeah.
Well, so that's it's up to you to be. Yeah. What
was it? I was barely paying What was the question? It was? Oh, well,
what did I take with me? Well, yeah. For me,
it's like, I mean, the journey for me at agencies, obviously moved into design and my career, I did not go to school for that. So I think it kind of led me to that, because I think what I was, like I said, what I learned is like, I really like this process of like, starting with an idea that, that part in the middle where you're like, I don't know how I'm going to turn this into a thing, like, and then you just you develop that muscle where you have faith that like, okay, we're gonna get through this, we're gonna workshops and stuff. And so for me, that was like the big takeaway, and probably has informed the rest of my career. It helped me in school. It's helped me work, you know, just kind of like, you've been through the rodeo. And yeah, the end result was different. But that process, I think, I fell in love with the design process, at agency, sort of, like kicked me off on another trajectory, but it's still sort of the same thing. I mean, a lot of ways.
So what what, what,
like, what was it what that was the same? was it? Was it the collaborative thing that we did? What was the? Yeah, it's
a collaborative, it's like, the, it's like, creative works a lot of uncertainty, right? So it's like, you have to have faith in yourself and your team and the people around you that you're going to like, figure it out, ultimately, and I don't know, maybe other jobs are like that, too. I don't know. I've never been a an accountant, or I don't know. But to me it I guess it's relatively unique to what we do. But that just like comfort with uncertainty. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Like, if you if you can't get comfortable with it, it'll be a horrible job to have, like, if you need things to be buttoned up all the time, and you can't just like, have faith that you're gonna chip away and get to a good thing. Which I sort of like, I like that process. Like, I've found that.
Like, I like,
I guess I was kind of like, Well, you know, website building is this thing of, you know, you put all these little pieces together, you see if it works, it never bigger concept, right?
It's, what's the concept? And how does the thing inform the concept, then how does the vice versa, right? So it's like this interplay back and forth. And it's not that different. It's like what I do now, it's like, there's a constant that you wouldn't necessarily know. But like, in a retailer, for what for furniture, like you're working from a concept, and then you're trying to take discrete ideas in the form of products and form of concept. And then it's like this back and forth, that happens. Yep. And it's like this great, messy puzzle that you've put together on a regular basis.
You're triggering for me, I remember, we would always talk about websites in metaphors, right? It's a theme park, or it's a this or you're in this space, right? Like, so it was very much that trying to translate, you know, how you would build Lego blocks into this digital thing?
Yeah, cuz you don't have a framework to hang it off of like,
what are you doing? Right? Oh, yeah. Exactly. He was also, you know, it does instill in everybody I stay in touch with they've done pretty well, if not very well, you know, like ben jones, Mr. Rockstar. But curiosity, the curiosity of, you know what, I don't know how this works. But let me go try figure it out. Let me go see if there's other ways to do this. And that kind of training you get when you were working there. And I still do today, you know, when somebody goes, Oh, there's no way we can do this. I'm like, yeah, there has to be a way. Let's figure out. Let's go talk to somebody else. Right. Right. And that that was that training, I got an agency called was that keep that curiosity going? Change will always be constant because a new browser arrived or a new set of HTML arrived, or flash arrived? Right. And then how do you adapt? And how do you make it work? So I think
I think that was what was cool about the early web, right?
Yeah. That it was
there was no foundation. Yeah, I think that's I think that's what Jeff and I really liked about it at the beginning. Like it's like, oh, this is just like, everyone's making this up. That's you're building the cars. We're driving. And it's like, you either like this experience or you don't.
Exactly.
It's either exciting or terrifying.
Yeah. Yeah. Jeff's back Jeff's back. So it was, I remember it was very simple. Like the web today is like the internet today is so complicated, right? It was so simple back then. But But Jeff, yeah, welcome back. It looks like you've switched from your phone. to your computer.
Yeah, we'll see if this works.
Well, we started out your the web didn't work. So we went to the phone. And that worked for a while minute died. You said your phone overheated. So that gave me a warning. It says too hot to shut down.
The conversations to
get day waiting, buddy. Yeah, so So what did you take from those days? Yeah, I
think we're touched touched on. It's like the curiosity and like, being comfortable with constant change was really I took that to like other jobs. And also like other things I do, it's like, you know, just not getting comfortable with the situation because you know, it's going to change. And, you know, whether that's new technology or whatever, like, got really cool with that. And then there was one thing that kind of, I don't know if you remember this, but we read, we run the Broadway office, and you took all the Creative People and we did, like Upright Citizens Brigade.
thing.
I don't think we ever talked about this, but like, I got so much out of that. Like, because it was like lots of, like, improv games to like, help. Get the idea was it helps you like when you're pitching clients? Are you talking to people like, yeah, and yeah, there was like the Yes. And game that you play where like, somebody says something like, ridiculous, and you have to say yes. And then you build on it. Yeah. Is that so many times? Like, that was like one thing that like, I took everywhere with me. After after working at agency it was things like that, again, like I like I mentioned earlier, it was about the experiences that I really, that's what kind of stuck with me when I
went on. Yeah, that was that was, um, yeah, cuz it I think part of that was we were all just trying to, we were trying to figure out how to do the internet stuff. But we're also trying to figure out how to run a company while we were growing it really quick. So part of it would be, you know, I would just hear from people, okay, we're miserable now, or we don't know how to pitch right. And so I'm like, okay, like, I have an acting background. So like, we'll do improv classes. So a lot of stuff was just, like figuring it out. Like if people are miserable. What do we do now? And, yeah, I'm glad I'm glad you reminded me of that. I remember doing I remember, we hired a magician. At one point for for creative directors we had brought in from everywhere. And we had the magician do a trick. His name was Michael child. And he did this trick. It was like a, like a prediction trick. And then, and then we broke people into groups, and they tried to figure out how he did it. And then they presented that and then he at the end actually revealed how he did it. And I so it's stuff like that was always that that sticks with me is really memorable. So that's, that's cool that you remembered that one because I'd forgotten about the improv stuff. Yeah.
And so now you're sitting in Brooklyn, your photo careers off the ground here, Jeff, by the sound of things. Are you enjoying that? Have you completely sort of said, you know, what, never again, will I go to the web or
it's funny because I, towards the end of my like, internet career, I was doing more UX. I kind of got tired of like, fighting for creative. And then the client being like, no, and then the UX person says one thing and like shows one chart. And they're like, Oh, yeah. Like I said, the same thing. So I switched to because I got tired of the like, fighting these fights. Yeah, I switch to doing UX. And I really, I really enjoyed that. I kind of extended my time. But yeah, to get to the point where it's like, you don't have to argue over you know, what the priority of things like on the homepage. I can't do it anymore. But um, yeah.
Can you make the logo bigger?
Remember, when the rotating he came out on IE? And it was so the Rotate everybody I remember going to like, Can you make how logo rotate? Well, I really that's it.
For the Hitachi logo
logo. Oh, right.
And in fact, an animated GIFs. And flash didn't exist back then. Another one where we had to write a Perl script. Yeah, that took the frames of the animation and spun it. Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy. Crazy.
I don't think I've heard the phrase PERL script in 20 years.
How about you? I mean, you're sort of deep in the analog world. I mean, I assume you do a lot of stuff on digital, but to design stuff, but Right, right. Do you miss any of the interactive stuff? Are you like, I like the real I don't know.
It's fine. I
just feel like I don't know. I don't even know what it is to be honest. In a way. It's like I could fix like, it's like, I feel like I could feel The VW bug but everyone's driving like complicated cars now. It's like that sort of like my level of knowledge. Yeah. And the world I was in is so the world is so is so analog and old school. I was joking with you before that I literally didn't know what zoom was before COVID I had never heard of it. I no one I knew, like no job at had ever done it. Like, it was just not a thing. So I have I'm like, we're so regressed compared to the rest
of you, but
well let them live. It's a bad thing, though. You know?
I mean, it just is right. Yeah,
I don't think it's a bad thing. Look, I have to say, you know, you look at where we are today, compared to where we've come from. Right. Kyle and I talk about this a lot, the culture that was created, and the people we stayed in touch with are very, you know, doing passionate things that they're passionate about. And some of it is, you know, going back to what they thought they were doing when they were college, right. And all of a sudden they found, right, so the big thing right now seems to be a project a product called clubhouse. I get about 10 emails a day from somebody saying, Can you get me the invite, I need to be in it. And I think that's the bad side of what we've just created with all this social and all of the craziness that's going on at the moment. Sometimes I feel like we should go back to 1995 and start figuring stuff out again. Right, break it up and change it. So that's crazy, you know, so I think it's too bad. You should watch this show on BBC called the repair shop ball.
Oh, my wife. Yeah, she told me I watched one episode, it was pretty fascinating.
It's fascinating, you know, taking those artists, artisans, that skill that's just non existent at the moment. So just for you, the you, Jeff and Carl, it's a show where you can bring something very old, and then they fix it for you. So, you know, last yesterday's episode, a woman born in a sort of an all in one record player radio thing that her grandfather had bought in 19, you know, 14 or something. And the turntable was a little broken, the needle would work. The speakers were there, but you wanted it repaired. And the woodworker guy and the turntable guy and the the metallurgy guy all got together and they pulled it all together and fix the whole thing and shined it up. And it was brand new again. So it's a great show. It's a great show. It's got nothing to do with the internet.
Yeah, exactly. Well, how I actually talked to both for this, but it sounds like COVID kind of hit both of your businesses in different ways. Like, you know, like,
yeah, I mean, we Yeah,
we were I was almonds for Marco. It's been remarkably, I don't wanna say it's been good, because that sounds terrible. But the business has been remarkable, remarkably strong. Like, we were shocked. And I guess in hindsight, like, we shouldn't have been, in a way, because like, people are stuck in their houses, of course, they're gonna buy stuff in their house
and chairs and they need this. I don't know. Yeah, I lucked
out that when I worked there, internet, the internet presence theier... Their ability to sell stuff online was already very robust, which maybe other retailers didn't have. So the transition out, while not seamless was pretty good compared to, you know, like, our stores. A lot of our stores closed like everybody, but we had our best year ever. Because Oh, all right, which is weird, because we were very much a brick and mortar business. So can you force us evolution?
So you're saying that you're still in the web business? I think
you asked Ben, like, how does Google make money? He's like, from the internet. Like, yeah. Yeah,
you've got you've got photostudio. Right. So that kind of requires physical interest and activity. So
yeah, I mean, I was shut down hard for three months, April, May, and then June, it started to trickle back. And then August was like a regular month last year, and it's been up and down since then, I it's a 5000 square foot space. And I also run it out for weddings and events and things like that. And like, that's all gone. Like, people ask me if I get all the time and people can I have 150 people but you know, for birthday, I'm like, No, you can't do that no. reproductions of coming back. Like I had a bunch of shoots here last week. There's something pending with HBO and I'm Fingers crossed. So yeah, it's coming back like productions are coming back. For me.
What's your what's the URL of the thing? Like, you know, I don't think we have a huge audience but like, we
have 100
it's a it's WarehouseBrooklyn.com.
That's the WarehouseBrooklyn.com Right few 100 people watching this.
Yeah, but you should all book it. But you can all go there at the same time.
Yes. Thanks. Got your check is in the mail. So
Paul, I will say to you that we procured more Western West Elm stuff coming into the porch of this house in the last year. Thank you. lamps, there's seats, there's chairs, there's all sorts of stuff. My wife's procuring from you.
Are there any particular product you've designed for West Elm that that you're particularly proud of? We should tell the world
Oh, I don't know. I mean,
I don't really design anything anymore. I just
kind of you just kind of oversee,
oversee, I saw if I said anything, I'd be taking credit for work that other
he's a manager. I know. That's the grand irony. Right.
So it's a little a little easier. You're not
22 Yeah. So you had
a few more bosses a little more life experience? Yeah. A little less force. Now, I don't know. I mean, we've had we have all kinds of great products.
That's good. Good corporate man. Man. Yeah.
The columns department will be very happy with him. Yeah.
Guys, thanks. Thanks for doing this. It's really pleasure to have you on and just you know, talk about
Good to see you guys. And well, actually haven't changed at all. You know, you need to grow hair like this and maybe get some Glossy, my hair short on the side of the camera. Okay, okay. That's the track.
It has. It hasn't penetrated the top of the head yet, but it's
great to see you as well. It's so cool. Thank you for doing.
