Ep 22 No Strings Attached: A conversation about ethical volunteering as a force for social good, and the sense of freedom that comes with doing something good for others.
5:43PM Sep 20, +0000
Speakers:
Shelli Ann Garland
Kate Chandler
Keywords:
volunteering
people
places
organisation
heritage
bit
sector
suppose
internship
historic properties
stonehenge
lived
kate
thought
dublin
countryside
talking
jobs
experience
paid
Hello, and welcome to a dash of salt. I'm Dr. Shelli Ann and I'm so glad you're here. Whether you stumbled upon this podcast by accident, or you're here because the subject drew you in welcome. Salt is an acronym for society and learning today. This podcast was created as an outlet for inviting fresh discussions on sociology and learning theories that impact your world. Each episode includes a wide range of themes that focus on society in everyday learning, whether formal or informal. So let's get stuck in Shall we?
Welcome to a dash of salt. Today I'm joined by Kate Chandler. Kate is a heritage professional from the UK living in Dublin. She's worked and volunteered for the National Trust and English Heritage and has held roles in volunteer coordination and management. She completed a master's in World Heritage management and conservation at University College Dublin, where the focus of her dissertation was on volunteering at National Heritage sites. Kay has facilitated voluntary workshops for students and how to get into heritage and has held a voluntary position on the properties committee An Taisce. She has a keen interest in the ethics of volunteering, and particularly in heritage volunteering, social equality, and volunteering and well being. She currently works in the cultural and heritage sector in Dublin. I'm delighted to have you on the podcast today and to speak to you about your volunteer identity and experiences as an active volunteer, and the ethics of volunteering, particularly your work in heritage volunteering, social equality, and volunteering. And while being welcome, Kate,
thank you so much for having me.
So Kate, I know that that you are actively involved with volunteering and have been for many years. And I'd like to start off by talking to you about your own past volunteer experiences. My PhD looked at volunteer influence exposure and experience of active adult volunteers, to find out how and why they became involved in volunteering and what it means to them. And whether their education, whether formal or informal, influenced their volunteer experiences, and to also provide further insight and understanding of the relationship between somebody's identity and learning through volunteering. So I'm really interested in the relationship between your past and current volunteer experiences. What's your earliest memory of volunteering, or maybe an awareness of what volunteering was? Or what it meant to be a volunteer for you?
That's a really good question. I think when I was growing up, as a family, we used to visit a lot of old historic properties. In rural Somerset in the southwest of England, where we lived, a lot of those were owned and run by the National Trust, which is a heritage organisation, a charity in the United Kingdom that looks after historic properties and land. And in these sites, and they ranged from like big grand houses to gardens and wider landscapes. There were always teams of people there helping out and doing jobs and in the rooms, answering questions about the story of the buildings and gardening. And I think, even though I can't pinpoint the exact moment that I thought, oh, that person's a volunteer, I was always aware that they were there. And I remember distinctly they green and white badges. And I always thought how special it would have been it would be to spend time in those places, because as a child, they really captured my imagination.
So Kate, who are what do you believe was your inspiration for volunteering,
I think it was definitely more of a what, rather than a who I, as I said, I really loved being in those places. And my imagination just went wild in old places, and forests and historic sites. And it was really wanting to spend more time in those places that inspired me to start volunteering. And I've never really been able to summarise it better than I love special places. And I love places that are really steeped in history and stories and the thought of being able to spend time in those places. And not only that, but go behind the scenes, you know, go into the attics and the servants quarters and you know, in the little corners of the, of these places that people don't usually get to go really, really inspired me to want to start volunteering.
That's, that's really fascinating, a fascinating reason that, you know, to volunteer, I remember as a young child, young girl to going to where I lived in Penn Yan, in New York. There my last name, my maiden name was Oliver. And there was a Carrie Oliver, who had a Victorian house in the village centre of Penang, and it had it that it was a little Museum, and we used to go there for school trips, day trips walk down there, and I was absolutely obsessed with going in there. And I also thought, would often go through the museum tours and think to myself, I wonder what you know, where are these stories coming from and where, you know, what's in the attic? And, and the journals that maybe they so I completely understand where you're coming from, with that. And I used to be enthralled by the people who would do the, you know, the speaking because I thought to myself, they just are so knowledgeable and they just make it sound so interesting.
You think they lived there as a child you think, oh, they live here? You know,
they know so much.
Yeah, that's the kind of magic around
and so did you volunteer during your compulsory school years? Or, and or during your higher education? years as well?
Yeah, that was really the busiest time for my volunteering. I suppose. When I was about 14 years old, I joined a local National Trust youth group. And we were ferried in a minivan round to loads of different sites in Somerset, where I lived, and we learnt skills like dry stone walling, and scrub bashing and coppicing, route countryside management skills, really, when I was 15, as part of my school's compulsory work experience, I volunteered with the gardener and estate Ranger team in a local National Trust property. And after that, I tried a bit of volunteering in the house there did a bit of room guiding, I was the youngest room guide there by about 50 years at that point, and helped out at events did a bit of research. And then I got an internship later at that property. After I did my degree, did a little bit of volunteering at Stonehenge as well, which was just up the road. So I did, I did a lot during that time. And then later on, I came back to the my university, Lancaster University where I did my undergrad degree and did workshops for students. And I'm in different disciplines about how to get into heritage, which, which was another totally different type of mentoring. But volunteering nonetheless. So that was a really interesting transition, I suppose from having done all of those different roles to coming back and helping other young people figure out how they might get into into the heritage sector.
So So Kate, do you think that your your formal education impacted your desire to volunteer? I know, you said, you talked about your experiences and what inspired you, but do you think that that your formal learning impacted your volunteering? And if so? Why?
Yeah, I think I think it was the other way around, really. I volunteered in so many different roles, because I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do. I knew that I wanted to work in the heritage sector, but I didn't quite know exactly how. So volunteering for me was a way of trying different things out and seeing where my interests might lie. And I was really privileged to be able to do that. I think that's important to remember that I had the privilege of being able to get to these places to start with, you know, I'm I was either driven when I was younger, by my parents are I have my own car. And I had the time and the ability to do that. And maybe we'll talk a little bit more about that later. But I was very lucky to be able to have that opportunity to sort of dip in and out of different things. And as a result of doing the outdoors volunteering, I very nearly studied countryside management at university. So it really, it almost directly impacted on what I decided to do with my further education. And in the end, I decided to study English Lit I remember this quite viscerally this moment when I was volunteering with the estate management team at this National Trust property and we were painting a gates in driving rain and it was a cold winter's day and I thought I don't want to do So I thought, okay, fine, maybe countryside management isn't the best way to go. And in the end, I decided to study English literature. Because for me, it's always been about stories. You know, that's partly what what enchanted me about those places in the first place was stories. And eventually after that I studied wild heritage management and conservation at University College Dublin, which is what brought me to Ireland in the first place.
It's funny that you say that, you know, that you in the driving rain and you thought to yourself, I, you know, I don't want to do this, I think that every volunteer can identify with it at some point, when, you know, when you're volunteering, there's always there always tends to be a low point, when you think to yourself, why am I doing this? Why, you know, why am I giving, I'm doing this for free? I'm giving my time for free. But then I think, you know, as we sort of dig a little bit deeper into it, we just find out how rich The benefits are. And those moments are then something that you can, you know, kind of laugh about later and say, you know, of course it was, you know, only just a little blip in my in my thought process.
Yeah, yeah. becomes part of it.
Yeah, absolutely. Part of that story, as you said, Um, so what kind of volunteering do you do now then Kate,
I do bits here. And there, I suppose I've got a different relationship to volunteering these days, then what I had a few years ago. So I'm not doing I don't do it anymore to figure out what I want to do. I'm I know where I am and what I want now. So it's a bit more of a, of a hobby, a bit more recreational. So I was on the properties committee for Antarctica for a while, which is known as the National Forests for Ireland, they own and manage different historic sites and landscapes across Ireland. So I was doing that for some time. And recently, I was a volunteer supervisor at the shaking dog festival with nature writing and art in the Wicklow mountains, which was fantastic. So I suppose I dip in and out, depending on where you know where my interests are. So it's a bit a bit different, I suppose than than how I used to volunteer.
And what's your fondest memory or your experience of volunteering? And why did you consider it to be your fondest memory?
That's so hard, but I think it goes back to the places. And being in those places. I remember, one of the first times I was volunteering as a room guide in this historic house, and it was a really quiet day. And there were barely there was barely anybody in the house. And I had this room to myself and I was sitting in the window seat looking out at the garden, pretending I lived there was about 15 at the time. And there were times when you know, you'd go behind the scenes, and you'd go into the rooms that nobody usually got to see. And you were up in the attics, and you were in the basements and all these kind of secret places that sort of changed the way you understood a place you know, because I grew up going to those places, and through my volunteering, I understood them and I got to know them in very different ways, which was really special. And there were times like, when I was volunteering at Stonehenge we used to do this thing every morning that we called waking up the stones, where we went a few of us went up to the stone circle behind the ropes went into the circle itself. And Crikey. I mean, I can't describe how huge they are, when you're right up beside them, you really get a sense of the scale of these things. And we did that every morning just to check that nothing was there that nobody was there. Because occasionally you did get people sort of trying to camp out there overnight and leaving behind offerings and stuff and, and just being there in the morning when no one else was around with the stones was incredible. So I think those moments where I felt a real connection with place with my fondest memories of volunteering,
I think that's really powerful. That idea of you know, connecting yourself with place in space and something that you do again freely and for your own you know, for the benefit of others but also for you know, your own gratification as well. You know there's something really powerful about that.
I think that's really truewhat you say about the fact that there's no strings attached to that kind of relationship you know you're not doing it for for money you know you're not doing it to in order to survive or subsist you're doing it because you love it and I think that can lend a kind of freedom to to those moments that you that possibly you don't get as much in The circumstances?
Absolutely. So I'm sure I know the answer to this question. But do you think that you've learned from your volunteer experiences? And if so, you know, what have you learned?
Yeah, I've learned an awful lot. I, from a very practical point of view, I've learned a lot of skills like dry stone walling and coppicing. And even now even though that was years ago, when I'm wandering around the countryside at home, if I see dry stone walls, you know, bit of it as come away, then I'd be packing it back in. So that hasn't left. That's I mean, I love that, you know, like traditional countryside skills. I've also learned a lot about people, how to talk to people how to interact with people, and that's something that never really came easily to me. So it was a way of facing a fear, I suppose. And learning to chat to people was one of the most valuable things I've ever learned. And that was, thanks to volunteering, I suppose. And I wouldn't say I've, I've learned this in particular, but I think one of the things that volunteering has really impressed upon me is how everybody is equally important. And volunteers can frequently be seen as almost like on the bottom bottom rung of a ladder organisation. But they are incredible. I mean, we, you know, volunteers are incredible. And they've got such a wealth of experience and passion and knowledge. And the I've met so many amazing people through volunteering, who also volunteers who are coming at it for all kinds of different reasons with all sorts of different backgrounds. And I think often their value can be overlooked. So that's something that I'm always very keen to stress.
So Kate, you know, why is volunteering important to you?
I think for me personally, it's volunteering is the reason I'm where I am in my life today. It's It's the reason I made the career decisions I did, I suppose it's given me an awful lot in terms of experiences and skills. It's allowed me to, to foster a deeper relationship with places that I have always loved. And I think in general, if done right, volunteering can be a real force for social good. By allowing people by allowing communities to come in and contribute to a shared goal with no strings attached. It doesn't always work out that way. But I think I ideally, that is that is the importance of volunteering, it's that there's a real kind of democracy about it in a way.
So I hit you with all the philosophical and the deep thinking and the you know, the past experiences and that kind of thing. answering those questions. And now I'd actually like to talk to you a little bit about, you know, your beliefs and the ethics of volunteering and volunteering and social equity, and well being, you know, the benefits of volunteering. So tell us what inspired you to get involved with World Heritage and conservation and what you're currently working on now?
Well, I was really aware, I suppose, when I was finishing up my undergrad degree that there was a big world out there. And I'd seen a bit of how the UK went about managing heritage through organisations like the National Trust and English Heritage who managed Stonehenge. But I wanted to see how other places did it and understand a little bit more about what heritage might mean on a global scale because of that. So that's what brought me to to Dublin really, because there was a World Heritage management and conservation masters on offer at UCD. So I came over and did that for a year. And now I working for Dublin City Council culture company who run cultural projects and heritage sites around the city including the museum 14 Henrietta street, and Richmond barracks, and I've been doing all kinds of projects for them, really. I've been there nearly three years now. I've been doing oral history projects and talking to people who used to live in Dublin's tenements. I've been managing the schools programme and at the moment, I I'm working with Dublin City libraries to organise the Dublin festival of history. So I've involved in lots of different things as part of this work. And I love it, I mean that it kind of links back to the way I the way I treated volunteering in a way dipping in and out of different things as I like that and a job to get involved in different facets of heritage. This is something I really enjoy.
And it's it's nice that you sort of you're volunteering, you know, has rolled into work where now you are being paid, you know, to do do the work you do, but it probably still doesn't really feel like work it does it still feel like volunteer, you know, your volunteer experiences?
Yeah, I mean, I often think, is there anything else I would rather be doing or any other area of work? I would rather be in? And I'm, there isn't. You know, I knew I was very lucky. I knew from very early on that. That's what I wanted to do. And volunteer was my way in to that.
Yeah. So from your perspective and experience, what role does volunteering play and community? And what impact does it have on social equity within societies?
I think volunteering has the power to really bring people together, particularly in local communities, if there is a, a shared goal or a shared asset, like a heritage site, for example. And people come together and work together in order to protect that place or tell that story. That's not to say that everyone does that for purely altruistic reasons. They don't as you know, people have that many different reasons for wanting to volunteer. But I think there's something about doing something as a as a group, not necessarily just doing something as a group, but doing something together feeling part of a, of a wider thing. So I met a lot of different volunteers through volunteering myself, and then later through my volunteer management work, and you got people coming into volunteering for so many different reasons, you know, you'd have a lot of people who were very local to, to, to the heritage sites, and they wanted to do something that was just up the road because they wanted to socialise more, maybe they were a bit older, and they were lonely. And so there was a big thing there about, you know, that the friendships that would be built as part of volunteering, and as a way of tackling loneliness. And I think, what's really interesting, and I was kind of ties into this when I was listening lately to another podcast, the 10%, happier podcast by Dan Harris, I don't know if you're familiar with it. And they had a guest, Johann Hari, who's the author of lost connections about the causes of depression, and happiness in general. And he was talking about a study done by Dr. Brett Ford in the US, where he and a team, were asking the question, what would happen if you were to conscious if you were to consciously try and make yourself happier? And they asked this question of 1000s of people in the US and in Taiwan, and Russia, and Japan, asked them all the same question, and invited them to try and make themselves happier. So 1000s of people in these four different countries are trying to make themselves happier. And then afterwards, they came back to them, and they asked them if they felt happier. And in Taiwan, and Russia and Japan, they said, Yes, on the whole, in the US, they didn't. And they were wondering why that was. And what they found, really surprised them. And what happened was that generally in the US, when people were trying to make themselves happier, consciously thinking about what happiness was, and trying to make themselves happier, they were doing something for themselves, they would go shopping, or they would achieve a goal in Taiwan and Russia and Japan generally what they were doing, the people in the study was they were doing something for somebody else, for a group or for their community. And that was so interesting, how that study at least, showed that at least to some degree, happiness is tied into working towards an achieving something outside of yourself and something more than just yourself and something that is for other people for a greater goal, a shared goal and for Me that really resonates with how volunteering can help, maybe not solve problems that we have as a, as a society, but certainly in the West, I think, with our super connection, super focus on self, and almost kind of pathological focus on self volunteering, and having that way of contributing to something beyond yourself, is really important.
Absolutely, I really love how you brought in, you know, the element into when we were talking about community and, and, you know, its impact on society, and you've just rolled So, so naturally into, you know, the contribution of volunteering to well being because, and I'm not surprised, to be honest with you about, you know, sort of the results of that American perspective, you know, that well, while there are, you know, loads of people in America, who, who volunteer and who live by that ethos of giving, you know, giving unto others and that type of thing, and would have been raised without that same, you know, mentality, they're generally, you know, Americans in general are so much more selfish and self centred. And I can see why that could contribute to, you know, to feelings of, you know, unhappiness, where those who contribute through volunteering would say, No, I'm, you know, I'm in a really good place, and, and it makes me quite happy. So, that didn't surprise me. But at the same time, it's really good to make note of that, and to have heard that, from, especially from an international perspective, so thank you for sharing that as well. Um, is the cultural in the heritage sector impacted by volunteers? And by volunteering? Do you rely heavily on the work of volunteers to sustain and maintain the infrastructure of the sector?
Yes. And particularly in the UK, which in a way, is or can be wonderful? Because you've got a lot of engagement is a word that's really overused, I think, but you do you have a lot of, I suppose, involvements, and in looking after special places from the local community who have, because I was thinking field isn't, isn't quite strong enough a word, but they have an ownership over their local, their local heritage and their local sites. And because of that, you, you get a real sense of passion when you go to those places, and you're greeted by by volunteers who, they don't have to be there, they're choosing to be there. So that, from that point of view, it's wonderful. I think that there is a danger of relying too heavily on volunteers, for reasons that I might expand upon in a moment. And I think that that's particularly excuse me a problem in the heritage sector in the UK. I mean, that's possibly in other countries. I don't know, I'm speaking mainly from my experience in the UK, but there are certainly a lot of organisations in the heritage sector in the UK, who, who state quite openly and proudly that they have a large team of volunteers and wouldn't be able to open their doors without volunteers.
You've spent a good many years working as a volunteer coordinator and a manager. And, you know, talk to us a little bit more about the ethics of volunteering, and what you think are important aspects of ethical volunteering.
Sure, and I suppose again, my my experience in volunteer management is in firmly in a heritage perspective and a UK heritage perspective. So I guess I'm speaking from from that experience alone, really, but it's a complicated subject. The way I see it, there are two major ethical issues or two kind of thorny areas when it comes to ethics and volunteering. And the first one of those is that volunteering is often is a luxury of the privileged. And the second one is that volunteers are vulnerable to exploitation, or they can be vulnerable to exploitation. So first of all, going back to volunteering as a luxury. I went to an interview once for a job after I'd done my internship and what I spoke about, my internship was was on paid. The person interviewing me told me that they that I was very lucky that I was able to do that for free. And I remember feeling at the time kind of indignant about that, because at the time I was doing a full time internship. unpaid I was working evenings in a pub, and I was working weekends at Stonehenge as a historic properties to it, which were both the latter two were both paid roles. So I was doing everything I could to support myself in that unpaid role, and I was exhausted. And I suppose when I, when I heard the challenge to that I, as I say, I was a little bit taken aback, but I thought about it. And it was one of those typical lightbulb moments really, because I was I was still able to, I managed to do that, because I was able bodied, I didn't have dependents, and I have my own car. And those that that is privilege, I wouldn't have been able to do that if I had any of those things to contend with. So they were they were absolutely right. And I'm incredibly privileged to have been able to do any of the volunteering, that I have done. You know, and I think I suppose the the internship situation is an interesting one that kind of brings me on to the, to the second point, which is that volunteers are vulnerable to exploitation. There's a great organisation called fair museum jobs. And they are a grassroots organisation seeking to improve recruitment and management practices and museums specifically. But there's a lot of application to the wider heritage and cultural sector. And they've developed a manifesto for volunteer and staff recruit recruitment and job advertising. And in that Manifesto, their approach to volunteering is no one should have to work for free, nobody should have to work for free. And heritage as a sector is really bad for this. There is a lot of competition for jobs. And because of that, you have to prove yourself in lots of different ways. And there is an expectation almost that you would have put in the hours as a volunteer, given your time for free in order to get paid work, which is often true, you know, it's not a wealthy sector, it's often just above minimum wage anyway. And internships, I suppose, are a good example of that. Fair museum jobs recommend that, first of all, internships should be paid. Second of all, they should have clear learning outcomes. But overall, the suggestion is that voluntary positions shouldn't replace paid work, they shouldn't have due to responsibilities that one would normally expect from a paid role. That's, that's in their Manifesto. And I think where volunteers find themselves doing the work that might normally be under the remit of paid staff, or might be such a responsibility that you'll be expected to be paid for it. That's where it gets problematic. And this happens widely. And I've I've known, senior management's in some places to almost boast about volunteers as a cost cutting technique, because the heritage is not is not a particularly well off sector, it's, you know, money is always short. It's, it's, in a way, quite predictable, particularly when you have such a willing supply of people who want to come and help. But you end up if you go down that route too far, you end up relying on volunteers to open your doors. And you end up having to ask volunteers again and again, to come in to cover work that needs to be covering essential areas, you know, and that, then you're then you're kind of pushing it a little bit and you're there's a question about, you know, your questioning, well, is it really volunteering, if they're feeling like they have to come in in order for the place to open it creates an enormous stress on staff as well, because you don't want to do that, you know. So, I think when you combine when you combine those two, when you combine volunteering as a luxury that is available to some, with a recruitment process that gives priority to people who have voluntary experience, you're essentially putting a price tag on working in that sector. You're blocking people who can't afford to work for free and there are a lot of issues with the Heritage sector in the UK, you know, it's by many, it's not considered particularly safe or welcoming for people of colour or for lgbtqi people. So you end up having with all of those factors combined a kind of almost like a stagnating workforce of white middle class cisgendered heteronormative people who are responses, who are responsible for curating and telling the story of a much, much wider and more varied group of people. And there, that there are so many, well meaning and well intentioned people in that in those organisations. It's a structural thing. And there have been a lot of inroads made in terms of challenging that particular, I suppose, tunnel vision view of what heritage is. But until those worked on all levels of an organisation, including a beginning with its workforce, its staff and its volunteers, you're not going to get true and meaningful change. So I think, if you think about the important aspects of ethical aren't volunteering, if you're in a position of power, if you have influence over the recruitment or management of a team of volunteers, you need to first of all reflect on your reasons for having volunteers. And if it's to save money, then that should be an immediate red flag. And you want you want to make sure that your roles aren't directly replacing paid jobs. And that what the volunteering you're doing is based on, based on meeting people halfway, I think, I think when when you when, when you start to lose sight of the individual, that's when that's when you can get into trouble. And you want to know what each individual volunteer wants as a person, you know, what are they bringing? What are they What do they want to get out of volunteering? Why do they want to volunteer, you know, not as a test, but as a way of understanding what matters to them, you know, and checking in with them regularly to make sure that those expectations are being met. And I think the fair museum jobs manifesto is a really great starting point as a, as a as a guideline for for trying to improve ethics and in volunteer recruitment and management.
Yeah, and I would say that, um, you know, you really brought up a difficult, you know, a difficult conversation, you know, that volunteer coordinators and managers, you know, in various volunteer organisations, you know, need to be having is, you know, addressing that lack of diversity, first and foremost, that, don't, you know, that where it doesn't, the volunteers don't always, you know, represent the, the, the wider community and, you know, to heritage and conservation sites, you know, there needs to be a look at at how do you diversify, you know, real a real person's experiences and their thoughts on something like that is, is something that volunteer managers and that type of thing need to hear. So, in some times experts overlook those important pieces, you know, where other people can step back, step away from the situation and say, Are you recognising this? Are you seeing this? You know, because, yeah, this is a bit of an issue. I'm really glad that you brought that, you know, brought that up and brought it out into the open, and you did so, you know, gracefully, and, you know, gently in a really, you know, respectful and response responsive way. So, thank you for sharing that. If someone wanted to get involved in volunteering for their community, especially in heritage convert, conservation, something that you have the most experience with, what what would you suggest that they do?
Well, I suppose there's a few different things you could do. Firstly, think about where where you might want to get involved, you know, is there a particular place or a particular museum or a particular area you're interested in? If not, that's okay. But that might be a good starting point. A lot of places have websites these days, larger organisations might have a wider landing page when it comes to volunteering opportunities, but other smaller ones will, you know, might have a list of opportunities that are coming up. But to be honest, I think the best thing you could do is just go and talk to people face to face or over the phone emails can often get lost. You know, heritage is, is a notorious sector for for emails kind of gets it going to the bottom of the pile, sometimes not put forth through any ill will but because a lot of the time that people looking at them might be dragged in different ways. So I would always suggest, either picking up the phone and giving, giving a call or going, going somewhere and talking to somebody face to face and just have a chat with them and see, see where what you want might meet what they want, and see how you can meet in the middle.
That's a really great idea actually. Just go and, and ask, you know, how can I get involved and actually, that human engagement, being able to, you know, speak with another person, and talk about your passions, and, you know, how can you, you know, represent and bring your passion to the table and, and contribute to, you know, to empowering that, that that organisation that you're thinking about volunteering with, you know, is is, says a lot more when you say it in person, then, you know, through emails, So, before we say goodbye, do you have any final words of wisdom or advice for our listeners?
Oh, gosh, I think if you, if you are in a in a position of power, when it comes to volunteers, you know, make sure that you're reflecting on that. And make sure that you are using that to improve the ethics of volunteering in your area, because we have, you know that there is a way to go still, and there's always room for reflection. And I can checking in all the time talking to people, I think that the essence of it comes down to that make sure that you're talking to people, and you're sure that you're treating everybody, as a fellow human. Everyone has different reasons for volunteering, so make sure you're checking in with them. And if you are a volunteer or would like to be a volunteer then was to say just Just don't be afraid to go and have a chat. Even if you think that there might be no way you know, that there'd be an opportunity for you in the area or interested in just take a chance and you never know what might come out of it.
Thank you for being a guest today. It was a really fabulous conversation from my perspective.
Thank you so much for having me. It's been lovely talking to you.
I hope that you've enjoyed this discussion on a dash of salt, a space where you'll always find fresh and current discussions on society and learning today. Season with just the right touch of experts and education and a dash of sociological imagination. Please be sure to like and share this episode. And don't forget to subscribe to a dash of salt on pod bean so that you don't miss the next episode. Thanks so much and we'll chat again soon.