Um, I don't know, I thought there was great ideas in the notes from the last session. And I'm just I'm thinking about this idea of relational empathy. And yeah.
So appreciating the ideas in the notes is good ideas and just thinking about the relational empathy part.
Yeah. Um, and it seems like relational empathy is, gets built out of imaginative like, or it's a more full bodied empathy, then one, we're just trying to, like, Oh, I just simply need to like understand, like, I imagine if you're like a lawyer, or you have to understand what the other person's saying and where they're coming from, but not in service of building a relational empathy with them in service of like, knowing how to then plan your next chess move. So that could be like, you know, that's, I think of as a very cognitive perspective taking with very different and which has a very, it's a very different means to a very different and I think, then what, what we would be talking about it what we seem to be talking about.
So, see, there's you're looking at the imaginative empathy, aspects of exploring that, and that the imaginative empathy is more of a, like a bigger category. Versus I wasn't quite clear, a lawyer would be a very focused, directed type of empathy.
No, not really what I was saying more, I was saying, I'm thinking of imaginative empathy as being used in service of building relationships, and cognitive empathy being used in service of, and I use the example of maybe like, a lawyer in court, you know, to kind of understand another side's perspective, not necessarily to build relationship, but
you know, okay, so you're kind of making a distinction between cognitive empathy and imaginative empathy, where imaginative empathy is more relationship building, and the cognitive empathy is more like something you're doing in a court, maybe goal directed, didn't say that. But it's a it's a different, they have different qualities. And it's not nice. It's not relationship oriented, like, imagine if empathy would be?
Yeah, that's right. So hard.
Yeah, it seems to be super the big issues is the cognitive empathy and affective empathy model. And so the the model that I'm looking at is sort of different than what sort of the integration of those two. And I think that's sort of a lot of what we've been sort of, sort of exploring.
So you're saying the split between cognitive and affective is one model, but you're wanting to move away from that split? And that your idea is that that's kind of what we've been doing so far?
Yeah, it's been looking at the two different models. And you know, it's like, sharing Well, here's the model that I'm using. And I guess I'm interested in sort of the model that you're using, where are you coming from? And going through the first session, what I was sort of hearing was you have a therapeutic model that you sort of been focused on. And then you're saying, Oh, here's this other model. And so you've been sort of exploring those, how those two relate to each other.
So you kind of thinking about the appropriate, they I don't know if I have that, right, maybe thinking about the appropriate model and reflecting on the model that I use, which is a therapeutic model, and wondering how the model that like how you think of empathy may be related or not to, to that, to kind of help route it. Yeah.
And how the two relate and yeah, so I would like to, I'm trying to get rid of the old man. I don't want a variant because I don't like it. I don't think it's functional is I think it has, it's not functional. So I kind of want to Yeah, yeah, that's kind of where I'm coming from. Say, Hey, I think there's a better way of explaining this and it's more practical and more functional.
Yeah, like you're wanting to get away from that that old model. Like it's a sort of frustrating model and you're wanting to build one that's more practical.
And in the interview that I did yesterday, he, Ashok is also you know, being a psychiatrist, he's come he has the the model of car cognitive empathy. And I kept adding I say, where is the cognition? We're talking? Now? Can you point to something that's happening in the relationship in the discussion, to say, this is the cognition that's happening? And I was just very unsatisfied? Like, I'm trying to really nail it down to an actual experience.
So in the interview that you did yesterday, I don't remember the gentleman's name a show, yeah, a show with a show. He has a model actually, of cognitive empathy. And so you were able to pursue your questions around that with this person. And you didn't feel satisfied with achieving a better understanding of what that what the experience of cognitive empathy is. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And the, the, I mean, the the issue of empathy and imaginative empathy, I sort of wonder where the line is to, is it there? You know, I'm not clear have a really clear differential saying, Yeah, right. Now, this is imagine empathy. This is cognitive. This is just empathy, yourself empathy, you know, where those lines are sort of hard to, I have some questions about those lines.
Right? So like, if we're gonna talk about imaginative empathy is one component, where do you draw the line between that and maybe self empathy? And that or empathy, proper session, empathy, proper, I guess?
Yeah. And what I find is effective is is like in the empathy circle, like, you know, right now you're listening, you're empathizing, you're sensing into what I'm saying. And it's, it's more saying, well, that that's the empathy, the sensing into, and the act of listening. So that helps that helps that that listening, because it's, you know, bringing more presence, more focus, more concentration, to the listening. And so that's just a tool or a practice that helps deepen that, that that empathy.
Right. So empathy itself is feeling into somebody's experience, purely, I think, is what you're saying. But the act of listening just kind of facilitates that process.
And then the the other approach is, what are the blocks to that? So there's all kinds of things that inhibit that inward flowing, right, and then we can just be naming I created a topic on the on the heading for the on the website, is blocks to empathy. So what are the things that are inhibiting that inward flow of the empathy?
Yeah, so if we think about that in workflow of empathy, what gets in the way of that? What are the blocks, and you even created a section of a website that's represented, that represents those blocks.
And it's that way is is the way to be addressing sort of the criticisms of empathy. You know, like, if we take Bloom's criticism of empathy, that it's state matching, you know, I agree state matching is going to block that inner flow of empathy, because I'm like, perhaps in my, if I'm angry, then you get angry, and we're all in our own world of anger, versus you being present with my anger and sensing into it. Yeah, and going deeper into the experience of the anger or whatever feeling it is.
So like, if we take blooms definition of empathy, which is state matching, that that that's actually is like, how you see that as more of a block to empathy rather than empathy in and of itself. And I think I might have missed the last part of what you were saying, Yeah,
that was the essence of it. Because you're in your own world. Right, your instead of sensing more deeply into, you know, maybe my state of anger, and seeing Wow, what's that? What's behind it, let's go deeper into it as you would like, as a therapist, you're sensing into that person. And so the state matching, he's describing his empathy is actually what I would consider a block to that inward flow. And then it's a way of explaining, you know, we're having a discussion with him and saying, Oh, this is how we're defining empathy. And what you're actually talking about, I wouldn't call it I would actually say that's a block to empathy. So it's sort of a structure that to be able to address all these different criticisms or misunderstandings. or what have you?
Yeah. Yeah. So what you're saying is that, like, this is a structure to address some of the misunderstandings out there, such as, for example blooms where state matching is how he's defining empathy, but it's really kind of a block because it blocks you from going deeper into the other person experience and how they're making meaning of that experience to so.
Yeah, so there's a lot more, but I just curious where you are with all that. So I feel heard.
Yeah. Well, one of my, I guess, I have a lot of thoughts in response. But I guess one of my first thoughts is that, um, I don't know, like how to handle the blocks to empathy, because I would agree that state matching, for example, sounds like a block to empathy. But it also for me, some of those blocks, I think, maybe you could argue all of those blocks are also vital components, but just in small degrees. So yeah, I'll stop there.
Yeah, so all the what would be called blocks to empathy might be, or are vital components of empathy.
Yeah. Um, for example, like, I agree with you that, like, if we get too much into state matching, to the degree that it's static, like if you came in, and you were really disappointed or sad, and then I state match, but I didn't move from it, then that, of course, then we would run into the problem that boot blooms mentioning. But if I were to state match, and then move forward with you into the project, and change my state, and then you could argue that that was very empathic that I leveled with you, you know, or, you know, the level with someone, okay level with you. But there's more to it. And we continue to talk and learn,
yes, that state matching could be beneficial if you have sort of a momentary state matching. But then you sort of move on from there, there's something there's a learning that happens there, and then you can not stay in that if you stayed in were stuck in it, then that would be a problem. But if you're continue to move from there maybe gives you some insight or something that you can then move on from there.
Yeah. Um, so. Yeah, so I know that that there's some reluctance to sticking with like components of empathy, rather than just one definition, because it's not as user friendly to talk about the components. But I do think that there's something like a resonance that's really important to empathizing. And for bloom, I guess he calls it state matching. For me, I call it resonance. Because without that, how do you fully I don't, I can't fully engage with someone just through imagination, I have to actually be, I have to feel something bodily, that that I think might map onto what they're feeling in order to even be motivated to start thinking about or imagining what they're going through.
So it's not like you're just trying to you can't just imagine what they're going through, you need to have that visceral felt experience of where they are. And without that, how can you really proceed? Or you need that to kind of understand them? So? Yeah, it feels like a component. It's an important component to the empathy.
Yeah. And I think well, when you first said that, I mean, what you reflected back was accurate, but I don't think I completely agree. But I was with what I was just saying, I don't think that I think I can still do imaginative empathy without feeling emotionally activated by someone, but it won't be as deep because if I feel emotionally activated by someone what someone's saying, it's gonna remind me of all these times in my own life when I went through something similar, and then my imagination will, is more likely to go to something that's on track and on target with what the other person saying or what they're going through, I think.
Yes. So you're saying that, I guess giving credence to imagine if empathy that if you if it triggers something in you some memories, that you can kind of connect to those memories and that can help your imaginative empathy of imagining their situation?
Yeah, I feel heard. Okay.
Yeah, it's it gets more subtle, right? It's, it's with the, if I'm sensing, listening and sensing into what you're saying or where you are, I see if I understanding, you know, correctly about mirror neurons, I do sense. Some of your feelings, right? It's like I have a visceral sense, it's sort of being modeled in me, if I hear see some anger in you, or some tears, I do feel it sort of modeled in my own body. So there is that, that sort of, there's sort of a direct empathic connection that we do model, the same feelings in ourselves, I guess. Yeah.
So I think you're kind of acknowledging that, like, you know, like the mirror neuron literature would have would suggest that there is a sort of a matching that happens, or a little a modeling, I think you said that when you do sense, an emotional experience and someone that, that you feel moved in a similar way, at least for a moment. And yeah,
yeah. And moment to moment to it's like, there's a moment to moment sensing and feeling of the other person. And and then I'm trying to make the connection with sort of the state matching, where at what point does it sort of block? It's like, that is actually helping me to sense into your experience, right? Is that that feeling? It's almost like homey apathy, right? It's like taking a little bit as a poison, taking a little bit of the experience. I'm not totally consumed. If you're if you're feeling sadness, I'm not totally consumed. In your sadness, I'm feeling that a quality of the sadness and it gives me a sense of, of who you are.
Yeah. So you're trying to you're trying to kind of get back to where does it become a block, and you're saying, you just take a little bit of it that it does help you that it does kind of you take in a little bit of the sadness, just to get a sense of where the other person is? Maybe not a lot. But yeah,
yeah. So I'm trying to find where is that point where that becomes sort of a state matching and a block to empathy. And it's, I display no clear line, right? So each person is going to be different. So if it kind of shifts my awareness from being present to you to being, you know, my so it's gonna be like a shift of presence, like, where does it if I'm no longer like present with with you? And I'm kind of My presence shifts, primarily to me, at some point, I get kind of wrapped up in my own state of mind, it seems it seems to be a state of the quality of the presence there.
Yeah. So what you're saying is that maybe the block comes in, when your presence in your focus moves from being other oriented or towards me and instead shifts to becoming more self oriented. That's something
you Yeah, yeah. And I lose that sense of presence with with you. If that point is going to be something that's a block. Yeah.
Yeah, so then you're building upon that, like you you in that process, you would lose the sense of presence with the other? And, yeah, that's when the block comes
in. Yeah. Yeah, I feel heard with that. I mean, there's a lot of subtleties, right. Again, it just gets more and more subtle there. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, I do. I really appreciate this. I appreciate our shift to considering the subtleties. It's really fascinating. So
finding the subtleties, the discussion has to shift to the subtleties fascinating.
Mm. Hmm. Yeah, I think some people, I think that we all have kind of limitations around certain topics, like you could be talking about. Most things that you you bring up for example, I feel safe and comfortable state matching or resonating, but maybe there are certain things that you could bring up. I can't think of anything right now. But maybe there's certain topics you can bring up where I go, Oh, and then I think part of being an empathic person is knowing I actually can't state match there, because that will leave me unable to continue. So I don't know what I'm trying to say. I think like, I've been trying to put my finger on this a while. But I think empathy is about actually knowing what you can and cannot do. Like in terms of this. Yeah.
So the the empathy is, is knowing sort of the boundary of how much you can state match how much you can sort of be present at what point? Is there maybe a boundary or something where you have to sort of take care of yourself for?
Yeah, and maybe that's fair. Yeah, maybe that's where self empathy comes in. Is that like? Yeah, no, knowing when you start to not just state match. But you start to get knowing when something is going to overwhelm you, or render you unable to continue in the interaction.
So self empathy is sort of being aware of your own state, in the, in the listening, or the, in the relating, and knowing at what point something might tip you over, into kind of the block to the connection or the the the presence and sort of being sort of aware of that boundary, say, oh, it's, I'm getting close to do something or Yeah.
Yeah, the phrase like being like one step ahead of the curve, or just ahead of the curve is coming to my mind. But that probably relates to being so present that you can kind of anticipate things and yeah,
being ahead of the curve, one step ahead of the curve. So you can sort of anticipate where things are going to do a dress. Yeah.
Yeah. So those are my thoughts for now. Thank you for your hard,
Oh, interesting, because I do know, like, my father's into, he's very religious, and like, the end of the world is coming, you know, it's kind of imminent. And he gets into that state, I can feel the state coming on that. When he gets into that state, I know, it's, he just kind of detaches and gets into his own, you know, thought system and he like, totally loses connection, he just wants to sort of pontificate on this so I can I can feel when he's moving towards that, that's moving into that state.
So you have like, kind of a sixth sense for some someone during your life that does when they move towards this certain state of when they think more apocalyptic kind of thoughts. They sort of become like, isolated from you. And they kind of go into their own world. But you have a sense for when that's actually happening. Yeah, there's
just a lot of a lot of, I don't know, energy, a lot of enthusiasm. A lot of, I don't know, just there's a lot of energy around it, you know, and it's like, oh, my god, I can't take. I can't handle that. I'm going to lose connection. He's not going to listen anymore. I know that you just kind of stopped listening. Is this, like, he just wants to sort of pontificate on on that philosophy of his and it's just done with? Almost? Yeah, incredible energy.
Yeah, so there's like a ton of energy, you can feel it coming on. It's like, a black hole of energy almost. And you just have a sense that once it once it starts, there's no kind of bringing him back. So
and so what I do is I try to shift the topic, right? It's like, oh, let's talk, I kind of send it off in a different direction is like, and to keep him from kind of going into that, into that. So I do sort of manipulate the, the discussion. So anyway, that's sort of that sixth sense, in a sense, like, you know, where the situation is going. And you can kind of do some strategy to kind of hit it off. And I guess that's the same thing you're saying you can sense like, I'm going to get overwhelmed here. Because I do get kind of overwhelmed or so I can shift the the energy that I can shift the focus of the conversation.
Yeah. Interesting. So that you're referring back to that six cents and saying that they because you can feel it coming on. Like you can also take steps to mitigate its impact on both him and you actually.
Yeah, yeah, I feel heard. Yeah. Yeah.
So it just so it's interesting like, because I guess I was talking about using a sixth sense or using presence of mind to mitigate the impact of emotional distress Ulation on yourself. But you're you're now applying it to kind of using that sixth sense in that presence to mitigate the impact of that emotion dysregulation on on the other person. Like,
you're seeing how it's shifting it from the self regulation to regulating the what's happening with the other person.
Yeah. And well, this is I mean, it's interesting is the examples with your dad, because it's this is reminded me of attachment studies and CO regulation. Because it's like, we're talking about I think co regulation. Now, you know, you're doing that for the whole system. But you're Yeah, you're doing on behalf of you and him?
Yeah. And so you're seeing how it's co regulation? I'm trying to regulate the relationship, the quality, the nature of the relationship?
Yeah, that's, I feel heard. Yeah.
Yeah, I do see another approach that would be perhaps more empathic that in that case, I'm sort of deflecting the conversation. So I don't know that that's the most empathic sort of approach that more empathic would be is I hear what he's doing what he's saying, and somehow name it, and maybe name the feelings and the, the underlying, you know, feelings or desires are the feelings that he's wanting, like, Oh, I'm hearing you're, you're getting really excited about this, or you're really concerned, you're really worried about it. So that way, I'd be sort of sensing into that experience, what versus versus trying to deflect it to a different topic, because I really don't know how to deal with it when it gets so intense, you know?
So you're sort of, I think, like, sort of disagree, or not disagreeing. But you're sort of cautioning against calling that empathy or CO regulation, because you're saying there's ways in which, for instance, that you could have been doing that more effectively with your father, for example, by kind of marking his experience or saying, I see you're getting really excited about this, and maybe without immediately redirecting him. Yeah,
it's like the Rogers, like I'm accompany someone on their journey, right? It's like, I've kind of said, Hey, let's go. direction. Let's not go there. Let's go over here. So it seems like I could be more, but I don't know how to sort of stay with him when he gets in that state. And so yeah,
yeah. So you're sort of saying that they're really like, you don't have you don't really know at this point how to do that how to make that move a little more subtle. That is sort of like your, you don't have the vocabulary for it. And so instead, you just kind of instead of going along with him on his journey, you say, Let's go on a different journey all together.
And that's in terms of the blocks of empathy. That scene is a block to empathy, usually, when you try to divert someone on a different path. And there's good reasons for maybe trying to divert people from from the path, but that doesn't, it's not going into the, to the experience that sort of arising. Yeah.
Yeah. So normally, that's considered a box of empathy for good, maybe for good reason. But there's also good reason to redirect people sometimes. Yeah,
yeah, I feel heard. Yeah.
So it's interesting, because I can imagine moments when it's like, I can imagine more for maybe more moments when redirecting someone is dismissive and not empathic than I can imagine when it is empathic, but yet, like in a situation that you're describing, it does seem, I mean, it does, you could make the argument that it's an empathic thing to do. And I could imagine other situations where you might be able to make that argument to.
So you're seeing the taxi deflection like that might be there's an argument that that is actually empathic. You could maybe in some situations it is and some others, it isn't. And, you know, there's arguments to be made for that.
Yeah, but I agree with you and that, I think much more often. It's empathic to I'm too prior to try to simply put words to what somebody is doing. Somebody is acting something out like something keeps Getting acting acted out and you're in that relationship. And so by putting words to it, then you help both you and the other person.
Right, it's just the printer was going, where'd you go? I hit the wrong button. I was trying to hit the mute.
Yeah. I figured that was what happened. But I'm
sorry, I can't go. Oh, yeah, no, there was a.
So what I was saying is, I think you're right, that I think that it does help to put words to write. And the impact is to put words to what someone's doing or saying, yeah,
so putting words to the experience is generally a more empathic sort of approach.
Yeah, and a more an approach that CO regulates the other person's experience, like, Oh, this feels familiar. I think, you know, every time we start talking about this, I start to feel overwhelmed. And I sense that you also do too. So like, can we change the topic? Because like, I don't really want to feel that way. I have a sense that you might not you'd want to either like yours. I don't know, something like
that. So you're kind of looking at different strategies for addressing that by naming how how I'm feeling in the situations I always get, you know, wound up around this, or maybe you do too, and we can we actually asking, Can we change the topic?
Yeah. So I don't know what you would call that. But I think that definitely is a part of empathy. So yeah, that's,
yeah. So naming your own what's going on for you and kind of making a request that that's part of see those seem to be part of empathy?
Well, no, I don't think all of that what I just said and modeled, I think the part of part of it that I see as being part of empathy is being able to put words or symbols to and a bodily experience, or a more emotional experience that keeps happening, like to being able to have that capacity to name what's happening.
So the empathic part is to be able to name the emotions and the dynamics that are coming up.
Yeah, that's all. Thank you.
Yeah, because it is a reoccurring, it's a reoccurring dynamic that I would like to kind of be able to work through, you know, it's like, Hey, can we and, you know, it's sort of family situation? And it's like, you know, if you kind of get stuck, and how do you kind of work through it? Because I don't really I'm not, not really sure.
So you're agreeing that this is a this is a reoccurring, or recurring? Dynamic, and it's hard when it's family, you feel sort of stuck even more so in these dynamics? Yeah.
Yeah. And I wish I had the tools or the practice of how to name what's happening to kind of move through it, because I do feel that, you know, fathers sort of stuck in it, too. It's like it. Yeah. So and I guess the question is, what is the empathic approach? You know, is there in that kind of calls for what is the larger understanding of what empathy is? Is empathy, the sensing into, you know, whatever's coming up? And how do you sense in more effectively?
Yeah. Yeah. So it's like you don't, we'd like to have the tools in that particular relationship with that particular person to be able to move past this thing that keeps getting enacted. And if that if those tools are required for empathy, then what? I think I lost the last part, but it's like, what do we call that? What is that part of empathy?
Yeah, there's a, there's a dynamic. I'm just kind of sitting with the inexperience that empathy is a sensing into. And so I'm sensing into where he is with his dynamic, and how do I continue sensing and deeper? Right and staying present with what is and sensing into that? And also, yeah, so there's a there's a higher level of the definition of empathy. I guess that fits in with that specific dynamic.
Yeah, but it's, yeah, I hear what you're saying. Okay. So basically, what you're saying is that if you stick with that higher level definition of sensing into what someone else is saying, accompanying them on their journey, as Carl Rogers said, like How do you apply that in that moment? With your, your father, for example? Yeah,
yeah. And then not get stuck. There seems to be this logical kind of relational scheme. I've seen that in, in others who are especially like religious people who were, they have a model. And they're sort of like, in political or whatever. And they're very stuck in the in this sort of detached model. And it's hard to talk to people in that state, you know, and have a real connected discussion.
Yeah. Yeah. So you sort of sense that happening with people that maybe have a very religious people specifically that have a very set rigid idea about the world or even people that are very political, but that it's you find it hard to talk to people when they're sort of in that?
Yeah, exactly. So there's something something there how to sort of work through that in what is the relate what is the role of empathy, within within that, you know, what is I do see it as a block to empathy that, for example, we set up the empathy tent in Sacramento. And there was some identity Eropa a group came to the tent is a right wing rally. And the identity rope, I don't know if you're familiar with them, but they're the people with the khakis, and the torches, Tiki torches that Charlottesville. So there's a lot of them that were there. And they have this one person came into the tent, I mean, to the tent, and we're talking with him, he had very fixed sort of ideas. And you don't have to reflect all this, this, the essence of it. And then one of our team, which is Jewish. And he, you know, he was trying to have an empathy he was in a topic came up is what is what comes up to you for you about the Holocaust. And my friend said, you know, it means that half my family relatives were killed, and the other half was moved overseas, if you say we're in Austria, so, and he just asked the person to reflect, he couldn't do it. Because his model was that that was not true that that did not happen. So he tried to do everything he could to keep from saying it. And it took like five or six times in repeating it repeating it before the person would reflect back what it was he heard him say, hmm, I just So okay,
so yeah, you're starting to starting to say like, what's the block to empathy in the case, like, between you and your father, and you reference this example of doing an trying to do an empathy circle with I guess, these two groups? One from Charlottesville, is that right? Um,
we're the identity Europa, there's sort of a right wing, white identitarian. Group.
Okay, identity, Europa. And so they kind of hold this belief being very far right, that they don't believe the Holocaust kind of happened if you had your friend who's Jewish and was like, talking about their ideas about the Holocaust and their personal resonance with it. And that came time for this person from identity Europa did reflect back and what they had heard, and they couldn't, they simply could not say the words. And so what is that? You know?
Yeah. And I was a block to empathy. I see that as a block, because he's, I could see him I could feel him in his head thinking of the logic of how not to say it back, you know, he had the logic of his story. And he was going to tell back his story and not reflect back. And then finally, one of his friends who had done the empathy circle had a bit of experience it, just repeat back what you say. And he did it. And my friend Jewish, you know, Dave, he was like, Oh, I felt really good. Just to be heard. You know, you could just feel this Tim reflecting that back felt so good, because he had to take it in and not, you know, block it and deny it.
So this guy fought so hard not to reflect back what was said, for so long, and then finally reflected back what was said, and it meant a lot to your friend, Dave. Because it because what it meant to both parties is that the other person had to actually experience it for a second. Yeah.
Yeah. And again, that brings in the relational aspect, right. It's the, the listener has to be able to listen and hear and it's yeah, there's that relational aspect to it. Yeah. So yeah. I feel heard with that.
Yeah, there's like a relational aspect because the bill was interested taking what's being said, in order for the relational empathy to be. Yeah. Mmm hmm. Well, I do think is probably a different experience altogether to be empathizing with someone that has a really rigid way about them a really rigid personality structure or way of seeing the world or just, yeah, just like way of being in the world period.
Yes, you can see how a really rigid structure personality structure would inhibit the empathy and be difficult to sort of empathize with them?
Well, I think it'd be it makes empathy, the empathic experience different. I don't know, if it inhibits it
just makes it different than Yeah, not necessarily inhibit.
Yeah, um, I can I think that it. I think it becomes more necessary to I'm not sure what I'm not sure. I know that it's different, but I can't quite put my finger on why or how I think that if you state match, it takes a lot more to come back into yourself. Because if you're state matching with, like someone that's has a highly different worldview, or very rigid religious view that you don't agree with, you know, you could risk actually losing yourself or your own worldview, by state matching. And so I don't, I think it's a more challenging because you state match. And then you have to say, well, to be able to work myself back to my, my own experience, or rebalance myself, it takes a lot more work, you know,
you're trying to state mash for someone has a really rigid view, it's harder to sort of detach from that and come back into your own state. Just makes it more challenging.
Yeah, like that person. You were that example you used. I mean, he didn't want to do that he didn't want to part with his worldview. So he didn't, you know, and maybe he knew that empathizing with your friend Dave would would change him internally would really changes could subtly change his worldview forever. And so there was a real resistance to that, clinging to his own identity.
Yeah, so he is that guy was sort of, you're seeing that he could be trying to hold the claim to his identity. And if he had to take that in, it would sort of change his identity. And he was just resisting that that possible change?
Yeah. And I've heard people claim that not everybody's worthy of your empathy. And so I wonder in some way, and I don't it's an open question for me. I mean, but I wonder if that like, that's an example of since like that, yeah.
So people say, now everybody is worthy of your empathy. If that's like an example of when, when, when they aren't?
Well, not so much that example with the two people that you the second example you use. But like an example, like, I'll use a new example, like an example where, you know, I'm with someone that consistently mistreats me, and they have a certain worldview, if they're starting to get wrapped up in their worldview, maybe maybe it's not the best, you know, maybe empathy isn't the best route, because by state matching, or by taking that first step, I'm also actually lending validation, to kind of maybe even a harmful or evil worldview. Yeah.
If you're in a relationship with someone who has a harmful or evil, worse worldview, and you're sort of doing state matching, that that might, you know, might be not so good to the thing to do.
Yeah, and I know state matching, you're saying state matching isn't empathy, but I but I, I conversely, Think state matching is the first step in a larger empathic process. So I don't know I just think I just think empathy is about validating thing to do with some, or do we want to validate all? All mind states and all kind of? Yeah, that people have.
So that you're kind of just questioning that. Is it? The the listening to the validating? You know, do you want to do that for everyone? Is there sort of a limit there somewhere?
Yeah, like you, you are noticing come up in yourself, like in that conversation you referenced with your father, like that there's certain mind states that you just don't You don't go there with him? And and I'm sorry, I'm saying, maybe that's, I don't know. I'm saying that. I think there's a time and a place for that. Just just like there's a time and a place for empathy. Maybe. Yeah, yeah. So
having those boundaries to state matching, that might be a time in place for that, like there's a time and place for empathy and a time and a place for having those boundaries to? Yeah. Heard? Yeah. So for me, the workaround for that is that again, that it becomes mutual. So with the problem with that with my father in that situation, is if he's not reflecting and listening to me, like, I know that when he gets into that you will not listen anymore, you'll get so wrapped up and such a momentum that he just can't even listen anymore. So that's why I sort of deflect it. The solution would be, as I say, okay, you've had five minutes to talk now hear me for five minutes, right, like we're doing here is to have that mutual empathy, some kind of structure that creates that mutuality, then I think I could sort of handle five minutes of it. But then he's got to take you know, listen to me for five minutes, just like that identity. Europa person had to listen to Dave for five minutes.
Yeah. So you're saying a workaround for that is to implement the empathy circle, basically, and to say, you know, to put time limits on it, so that yes, you will listen, but that the same, it will need to be reciprocated? Yeah.
Yeah. That's why because I see the importance of the relational empathy. And then if it's sort of an abusive relationship, is that you have that mutuality. But then you also bring in other people, like to a full empathy circus, I can imagine a couple right, where there's just a really abusive person in the relationship. If you have multiple people, it also adds multiple points of view. And it's harder to have that one person so to be domineering, maybe controlling or you know, evil, or whatever it is, you're saying.
Yeah, see, and then you're saying in the case of an abusive relationship, you can you can do the empathy circle which tie traits that abusiveness from happening and also add more people to it, which further tie traits that enter? Yeah,
yeah. Yeah. And you're trying to teach and, and support the the mutuality of empathy. So there's kind of making it a cultural norm to kind of shift that, that perhaps abusive, domineering sort of relationship, like you can leave it, you know, that's one way but it's also can it be transformed? is another question, you know, is it Are there ways of transforming it to make it a mutual? More mutuality?
Yeah. You're suggesting bringing the empathy circle into these sorts of relationships presents an opportunity for them to be transformed? I think yeah,
yeah, exactly. The RFU saw the sound back then interview, if you know, is there you go. There's the psychopath narcissist. And in effect, she was actually
falling into a conversation with you instead of spine.
Question. So that was one example that you know of that dynamic. Yeah, and I did. The other thing was is the term evil. There is the book The Science of evil by Simon Baron Cohen. So he is pretty much the whole book is he wants to shift the term evil to empathy, erosion. So if you're saying someone is evil, it's a lack of empathy on their their part. So I think that's a really good. It's something I thought about even before I read the book, and it was nice that he kind of was making the case.
you're referencing this book by Simon Baron Cohen, which talks about evil as empathy, erosion. And before that you were talking about this person that came To the empathy circle with you forget his name. Um, back then. He's famous psychopath and stuff for flames. Yeah. And yeah, and I did watch that. So, okay. Yeah, yeah, I forgot, but I did. Yeah. Yeah.
So yeah, I feel heard with that it's I guess it was just the dread. Yeah. Okay.
But so what i My impression of that was that there were even though it ended up being a positive experience, which I know, you had told me that it ended up being positive. And it did seem, indeed it did. There were like little moments where he he refused to participate, like he tried to, and then when you read it, you just had to catch it right away. And you did? And then so then he continued with them. But the circle,
yeah. Okay. So you didn't notice in the circle, he was kind of trying to redirect it out of the structure. And that I caught it and kind of brought him back into the process.
Yeah. And I was wondering, I was wondering the significance of that. Like, he just wanted to respond to what you were saying, and when you stop and music, but I just want to respond to what you're saying. And I didn't know what to make of it the time, but I just thought to myself, hmm, I wonder if that's if that happens with people that have difficulty with empathy, I wonder if they test the limits a bit a lot.
So you're saying that perhaps that was a testing people who have difficulty with empathy, they're sort of testing the limits of the empathic presence? What can they get away with or?
Right? Um, because I think part of like, character pathology, I'm not going to make it about that individual, but just broadly is like, trying to manipulate others in you know, um, either like flooding them with empathy, and then withdrawing and abandoning or just doing these, like pretty drastic interpersonal movements where the other person feels flooded or compelled to act in certain ways that are out of their character, too. And
yes, you're kind of looking at the overall dynamics of how kind of just relationships people flooding someone and empathy, then withdrawing it, and just all the different sort of, yeah, the dynamics of of how the how relationships work.
Yeah. And like the empathy circle mitigates all that, all those, all those shenanigans. So,
you know, seeing how the empathy circles mitigates social shenanigans, is a term.
Yeah. So that was kind of an aside, but I feel hurt. Yeah.
Yeah. That's why I think that the empathy circle, what we're doing with trying to define empathy within the context of the empathy circle, it creates a, if you start sensing how the empathy circle works, that when a shenanigan comes up, or a block to empathy, you can sort of identify it, you're because it's sort of out of character to the dynamics. So I think that it's unique if we can create a definition, you know, it's highly sort of grounded in the empathy circle practice.
So you're coming back to the importance of developing a definition that's based on the empathy circle itself, because if that can be done well, I don't know how you connected that Titian in his shenanigans, but
it's when people do this shenanigans, they're trying to deflect or out of the process, that you can catch it, you can name it, you can sense it. You can describe it, I think it can be described more easily.
Yeah. So I think what you're saying is that because there's a structure, the empathy circle, has a structure becomes more easy to detect when there's something that falls outside that structure, like a block to empathy or shenanigan. In that way. Yeah.
So if if, if it's, you know, your turn to listen, and you start to deflect going off on something else, I can say now, I didn't feel heard in that case, so I can, you know, we can we can catch that deflection. So, for example, with my father, he says, Oh, the world is coming to an end, the end times are near. And you know, instead of instead of me saying, Well, what about this over here? I say, Oh, here's the end times you're near you're really concerned about the world ending, you know, and I stay with him right? In the empathy circle. I have to stay with him and make him feel heard. to his satisfaction. And the thing is, is there's a limit. I know there's a limit to I only got to listen to him for five minutes in this spiel, and then I'll get to say something. Because if he gets started on his thing, it's going to be two hours of him just talking and me not getting a word in edgewise, right? So I can sort of name the phenomenon and kind of point out the, it's easier to point out the, the shenanigans with the break in empathy that's happening.
Yeah, it gets much easier to point it out when it happens in the context of an empathy circle, rather than outside the empathy circle. Like if someone someone's turned to listen, and they instead start talking or Yeah,
yeah, and the other example is that empathy is sin, you know, model that, that Christianity group has been talking about is, they're saying that, for them, empathy is just one person doing all the listening and agreeing with everything that someone says. So it's like, whatever I say, you're just agreeing and listening to me, whatever complaints, whatever self pity I have, is, you just have to sort of take it on right as as, and you just get swamped in it. And, and it's, it's a lack of truth, right? There might be no truth in it. And they're saying that's what empathy is, is, you know, Shannon's just listening to all this nonsense, and the self pity and all this kind of stuff. And that's, you know, that's what empathy is. And that's terrible. That's horrible. But you can say, No, it's it's like, Hey, you're listening, you know, Shannon's listening to all that. But then she gets a chance to respond and say, Oh, I have a different view, and so forth. So again, that criticism that they have, if they would take part in an empathy circle would be easy to model and demonstrate that, yeah.
Yeah, so you're talking about the empathy is sin. Religious people that came out with this hypothesis in there, but their definition of empathy is like, someone's just sitting there and agreeing with everything the other person is saying, and if they would just take part in an empathy circle, they would see that, like, active listening is just the first component, but then you'll have a chance to also see your piece or
two. Exactly, yeah. And that's how you kind of get to the truth is to that neutral, that each person gets to share their truth until some kind of some kind of a consensus or understanding or something happens, you know, given enough time, it seems that that does seem to happen.
Yeah. And eventually, that brings you to the truth, because each person kind of gets to share their authentic kind of truth, until you can arrive at like a relational truth together.
And the more people you have in the circle, the more points of reference you have. So it seems like you come to even a deeper truth in that sense, because you have more more variety of perspectives, and then that you don't close the perspective. But you try to have the perspective keep bringing new people in, to bring in their perspectives. And so I think it creates a definition, it explains how the relational empathy works.
Right, that the more people you have, the more likely you are to get to a higher truth or even a more complex and true, accurate truth because you have more perspectives and that maybe that's what you're, you're referring to when you say relational empathy.
Yeah, yeah. I feel really hurt on that. Yeah. Um,
I kind of lost my train of thought, Mmm hmm. Yeah, I agree. That definition does seem really important. And I'm just trying to track the conversation today because it felt like you know, had really kind of some interesting insights came out of the conversation. Yeah.
Yeah, so you're, you're seeing the, the, the relevance of relational empathy and just hit sort of lost like, hey, what's my What am I thinking about? Are you trying to tap into remembering kind of what was sort of alive for you and just seeing trying to track the flow of the discussion?
Yeah, exactly. Um, oh, something that always comes up around blocks to empathy is, is that as I always think about um, shame as being Brene Brown does a talk on shame versus vulnerability. I don't know if you've seen it's very popular. So, whenever you say block, I see the word shame flashes in my mind.
Yeah, so the topic of shame comes up when you think about blocks related to Brene Brown and her comments about that and vulnerability.
Yeah. Um I started to see, like relational empathy as Sir, like an open channel between two people, like, what you're talking about under the tent, like me with your father is that there's one person is close, they're like this insulated. And the other person might be open or closed also. But the point is, there's not an open channel between the two.
Yeah, so the relational empathy is, is an open channel between the people and maybe one is closed, maybe both are closed, but the relational empathy would be sort of this open channel between the different people Yeah.
And, and shame is, is defined been defined as, like, the seeing AI turned inward, or it's got all these amazing definitions, but the Cinderella of negative emotions, the it's like, it's the most interpersonal emotion because it's what, what's the emotion we experience when somebody else like abandons or rejects us? It? It's a, it's kind of a sign that there's been an interpersonal disconnection. So it's intuitively I think, connected to this model of relational empathy as like a like, I think of like a transparent, like, cylinder almost between two people. Shame would be, you know, obstructing that cylinder in some way.
So if the model of empathy or relational empathy is a open on obstructive channel between the parties, the shame is something that is another block that comes in and inhibits that open channel.
Yeah, I mean, I use I, I sort of work from more of an individual empathy model or have been, and so I thought, I would think of shame as the block like the only but I would think that all the blocks that are listed are undergirded by shame. But I haven't thought I haven't thought about it as much in the context of a relational. So I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on that.
Yeah. So working in individual framework, you've seen that shame is what is like the major block and there's like sub blocks components of that block. And you're just wondering how I would I would see it. Yeah, I
feel heard. Thanks. Okay. Yeah,
I think that the major block is fear. Like, even above, if there's a sort of a meta block, it's it would probably be fear, that inhibits empathy. And shame would be some kind of a fear of something, a fear of a what I have to say is not acceptable, or what I've done is unacceptable or to be even heard and seen. So there would be a fear there.
Yeah, so you're saying that rather than seeing shame as the principal block, you actually see fear as the principal primary block to shame. And maybe shame would be kind of a fear of not being good enough or not seen or heard or whatever.
Yeah, and I don't Brene browns. So saying, it's like when you can express whatever it is that you're sort of blocking that, that it's the empathy being heard. And I guess part of it is like, hey, whatever you have to say, I'm willing to listen and emphasize with it, and I'm not going to disconnect from you. You know, listening to it. So she's always talking about shame is what I mean, empathy is what dissolves? Shame.
Yeah, some Brene Brown, you're saying talks about what empathy is that which dissolves shame, that whatever someone has to say, you you be there for them to hear it?
Yes. So I had had an experience of just sort of facing fears and kind of being sensitive to fears. And it does seem that I mean, I almost like doing some empathy circle series on hey, let's face our fears, and share them and, you know, have them be heard and move through them. Is is like super impactful. Yeah.
Yeah. So you've had experiences of shame, facing your fears and having empathy circles that are seret surrounding that idea of facing for years has been very impactful.
Oh, I would be thinking oh, Doing it haven't so much really done it. But in other experiences, like I tell a story of dancing and sort of dancing into fear for like an hour or so just keep looking for fears in my consciousness. And at the end, each one that I sort of met, stayed present with. And the idea was to, I had was to almost like a painting, you know how when you go in and out of painting a photograph, when you zoom into the pixel level of a photograph, you see little pixels, I want to go into the fear to see the pixels of the fear. And seeing like, the closer I got to it, at some point, they would sort of melt away, that that specific fear that I was feeling in my body. And then within like, a few seconds, it seemed like there was another fear with a whole nother manifestation happening. And I'd kind of go look at that and just kept going through at the end, I just felt like I was in like some kind of a bliss. It was like the most incredible experience.
Wow, that's cool. So you're describing this experience where you were kind of freeform dancing and going into various spheres within your consciousness and kind of breaking them up, like as if they were pixels in the photo? Yeah, yeah,
zooming in on them. And what I found is I got closer to it, that would turn into metaphors. Like there was one fear that was sort of in the core of my body, that almost like and as I got into it, it turned into a metaphor of 1000s of little knives cutting away, you know it. And then as I got closer, it just sort of disappeared, like, Oh, where'd they go? And then another one can't have it felt like it was sort of a heavy cloud on my head kind of a weight, you know, and I kind of went into that. And, and, yeah, we just started going from one to the other over an hour period of sort of dancing.
Okay, cool. So there was like an hour period of dancing, where you're like, going into these various fears. And they each had different kind of sensory visual representations. Like whether it be little knives or, like a big heavy cloud.
Yeah. Yeah. So it does see enemy. So that's, I do so. And there. I thought, wow, it's like fear is sort of really central. If you can keep facing and addressing and going through fears. It really does transform and kind of creates more space. And I think it yeah, that is just, yeah. So I think it kind of relates to the shame, I guess I was tying it in with shame, if you think go to those places, those spaces. And maybe a lot of times, I'm kind of afraid to even shares the fears, right. It's like, I don't want to talk about my fears. So you can kind of share those expressed some go through them. That it's, yeah, it's sort of a healing transformative experience.
Yeah, they are kind of comparing it to the shame in that, like, if you go into those very painful states, whether it be shame or fear, that you can sort of try and feel them and then by feeling them transform them, and oftentimes, it's not something you want to share with others but I'm doing so can be transformative.
And I could sense as I went into my second going to go into this there's almost like a rubber band, like a rubber band has a pool to it. There's something pulling me away like don't go there. Don't do that. So kind of this this this withdrawal. Yeah, kind of feeling.
Yeah, so like as you were going into the states there was a lot of resistance to it like a rubber band on your back pulling you back away from the Exactly yeah, not on your back but internally it
was kind of in Yeah, inside here. Kind of in this part of my body
only away from it. Yeah. Yeah.
I feel heard. Cool.
Um Um, should we open it up? Because I was
Yeah, sounds good. Yeah. So yeah, I
don't know if I have too many more high quality with my energy kind of descending the quality of my shares and might not be as but I think there's something to this of the going into powerful because I think when people are in that state, they probably need or want to be empathized with more than anything and yet it's very, you know, for example, like the ultimate fear that you were talking about, like empathizing with someone in that ultimate fear of like, end of world type of thing is not something that you you know, we don't know, I think most people don't want to go They're unless they're already thinking about it themselves, then it's not something they're gonna want to do.
Yeah. So there's a lot of different qualities. Well, that might be something to try is, at some point I have thought of like holding empathy circles on fear. It's like, okay, we just have a group we meet, like, you know, what is the concern anxiety, a concern, anxiety or fear? You're dealing with the get heard around that? So, as an experiment, it
could get pretty heavy and how do you mitigate if it does, like, maybe make them shorter? Like the normal or something?
Yeah, I don't know. I guess I trust the empathy that if you have four people in the circle, you got he got four different points of reference, I think that would help to kind of hold the space.
Yeah, depends on how much you know people. Yeah, how truthful or heavy that you know, get with is this true, I think that is, almost wonder is fear, more personal thing, you know, then shame is like, for me more and more interpersonal. I don't really feel shame, just if I, you know, in my own identity in my own, like, career pursuits, or something like that, I don't like I don't run up against shame as much maybe fear, I do. Fear of what? The uncertainty of the future, but it's in interpersonal relationships, whether like growing up or like, you know, past relational hardships. That, that that's where the shame is, and so I, you know, I'm not saying I'm just throwing that out there. Um, yeah,
yeah. Well, there's that, you know, keep exploring, it's the only we've got into sort of the personal interpersonal and I think that's the essence of the empathy you know, to it not it's just not an abstract it's, there's like, subtle energies and, and I keep looking for is there some kind of way of describing it, that is a simple sort of a meta simple explanation, you know, something that is a handle on and I keep coming back to the the sensing into the feeling into, and then you can kind of keep building, you know, is a starting starting point.
But that's in talks a lot about imagining so I'm most wonder about, like, going back into those eight definitions and trying to determine like, is there a user friendly way of distilling these down to one core definition in the way that we've been working towards? A lot of his components relate to either imagination or the emotional side? And we I think you I think those are the two components that you and I keep circling around in agreement, not cognition.
Yeah. Well, he has two of his definitions have the term imagination so maybe we could at some point kind of go into each Yeah. Into that paper take each one and sort of dig into it and
yeah, because I remember thinking to myself Wow, these sound awful some awfully similar, you know, they like there's like very nuanced differences between them.
Yeah, it's
impressive, but yeah,
yeah, it's for me it's like kind of where's the line between an empathy sensing into an imaginative empathy so I just kind of wonder, where's that line? How do I get have some clarity around that? Is it that line? Is everything everything imagination maybe there's everything is imagination maybe I'm imagining myself as an individual or something.
Oh, weird. Yeah. I hadn't thought of it like that. That's very matrix um, that would be interesting. I thought I had been imagining it maybe the you're imagining it differently as sensing into as the umbrella and imaginative empathy and affective or emotional empathy underneath that umbrella. What do you
yeah that is a core is the starting point is the sensing into there's different manifestations of that sensing into you know, I can sense indirectly sort of mirror neuron direct sensing into, I can sense into by perspective, taking being more imagining some and it seems Like the imagination is like unlimited you can take unlimited imaginative roll taking of just everything in anything and even aggregate so I can, I can imagine being a group of people so I can aggregate individuals is I'm not just imagining being one person I can imagine myself being all of Americans are all of Iranians and take the role of imagining that so it's almost like unlimited in terms of what can be done with imagination I can be imagined being a character have been a bundle of carrots, you know, so what is it like to be a bundle of carrots
that like that, um, yeah, I I don't think I spent a lot of time doing this I haven't done that before. But um,
I have others interview I did with someone who does NVC training. And she we did a role taking of her being Ice Cube, a cube tray and me being holding hands. And the two were talking empathy emphasize we're using empathic listening to dialogue role take and empathizing with each other, is her metaphor, I heard metaphor being unimpacted was ice cube tray. Oh, and then the metaphor for empathy was two hands holding hands. And then we said, well, let's roleplay those. And then they kind of emphasize with each other, so you can you can
Oh, I that would be fascinating. Yeah.
Yeah, I've got the video somewhere else. It's really kind of hilarious.
Yeah, I would imagine. Um, I yeah, I think I want I think I'd like to maybe do one of the empathy circles trying on more imagining, like being pushed morning, imagine them down that way. Oh, yeah.
What would be the scenario? What would be the it could be, hey, I know. It's like, I am cognitive empathy. And you are effective empathy, let's have a dialogue with each other.
That would be cool. And if we could get if there was one another person, we can get them to be imaginative empathy. And if there was another relational or we could just do two separate sessions and just cover all four.
Yeah, that sounds great. Yeah, that's that would be a fun next sort of step to approach it from another way. So we could try using those. And also there's, you're familiar with focusing process?
I love that. Yeah. Yeah.
I know someone here in the Bay Area, who's kind of a Cornell I can't rename right now Cornell something for. But anyway, I had thought we could invite her to try to lead an empathy circle where we do a focusing empathy circle. Yeah. Or you're trying to bring in some of these other practice, we try some, you know, some of the role taking prospective imaginative empathy, to explore the topic, but also, you know, try, try focusing, for example, yeah, it's like, oh, where's Yeah, I don't know how quite what that would look like. But
well, I wonder it would look like I think the reflections would be, instead of just actively listening, it would say, like, I'm sensing that there's the we would maybe end it by saying I'm, I sent as I'm sensing that there's some anger, maybe in what you just said, or at the end of what you were just saying, Hey, I think you can you sense into someone's experience, right?
That I think it's more the person the speaker is not speaking so much from conceptual but from a visceral felt experience and describing the visceral experience in their body. And sort of sound like there is there can be a reflection of that, like, Oh, I'm, I'm feeling sort of spacious. Um, I have this spaciousness here, a little bit of concern, sort of a worry here, and, and you just kind of reflect that but I'm always speaking from a felt experience, not from sort of from a conceptual it has to be a visceral felt experience that I speak is how I understand it. Yeah. But
is that how is that just how the the listener reflects back? Or is that also how you would want the speakers to be speaking?
That's the speaker, as I understand the speaker, whoever is focusing their speaking From that visceral felt experience the Oh right. There's different modes. That's the one I'm familiar with is, is, it's not so much the listener reflecting back the felt the felt experience that they're having. But reflecting the felt experience, and then by naming that feeling, it's shifts starts shifting, you start naming the shifts, and maybe some new feeling that's arising in the space.
Yeah, that'd be cool. Like, the way I learned about focusing was they transformed it into a therapeutic technique. So a therapist could listen to whatever content that the patient was saying, it could be totally conceptual, but they would, they would say, I'm sensing you know, that they would use both. Okay, you can also do a focusing where everyone's just folk focusing, you know, we're just focusing,
right? Yeah. So there's a lot of different we can serve approach it from these other modalities. And I think that would add a richness to exploration. So yeah, maybe next time we try the we do need a couple more people are knowing half Dallas, and they know she was looking for a job this kind of, yeah, just a bit. So I have been so looking for other people that might want to take part in, you know, Russia, but yeah, had asked her for events that to her, but you know, it's Indian time. This is like the middle of the night for her. So it didn't work. So yeah, I think having the full circle would add to the it would be more a more of a model of what we're trying to create. So I guess we'll check with Allison's.
Yeah. For our next workout work group. Perhaps we could like do, because I noticed my energy starts to drop after like an hour and 15. Or maybe we could end earlier and then do like a work group of what do we want to take from this or what direction or I know that I now that I have more free? Well, I will have more free time in the coming weeks. Hopefully it'd be able to look at the website and everything and get more into the sort of analyzing and analyzing interpretive part of it.
Okay, so when should we meet again? Have the 29th I want to take Christmas week off?
Yeah, I could do the week after the 29th. Would that work for you? Yeah, okay. I'm at six. Yes. Six would be good. I'm
the fifth. That's when face.
Oh, sorry. Yeah, I meant the fifth. I just meant. Wow. Okay. Yeah. Okay, cool. Are the six my time three years? Okay, great. All right, cool. Well,
yeah, I'm pretty pleased with the website, I see it as an ongoing, you know, projects free kind of into perpetuity, that it just keeps refining keeps getting better. Is this one place safe to say? What, what's it definitely empathy is a check defining empathy there is, you know, and it was just the, you know, all these dialogues, you can just keep going in into the dialogues, plus laying out the blocks and having some of the different frameworks and then I think it'll be interesting, do the role playing and, you know, whatever other, focusing whatever other ways of sort of accessing, yeah, formation,
think focusing with what is going to render a lot of good insights from that. I think that's going to render a lot of interesting things. Because we'll, we'll see, when a block comes up, we won't be able to focus anymore, you know, or, yeah, empathy. Yeah. Empathy is so broad, it's like, it's like presence of mind, active listening, emotional resonance imagination, like, if we try each one of these components, can, you know, maybe get in more in depth idea of, of even, I don't know, blocks and strengths and weaknesses of each one type thing.
And models what we're talking about, right? If we're talking about reimagining of empathy, we're doing imaginative empathy in the definition of that so and plus you with the with the empathy circle. And imagine of empathy. You have the direct empathy, as well as the model, the imaginative empathy. So it's kind of like two layers of Yeah. Yeah.
That's cool. Yeah. All right. Well, exciting things ahead and hopefully be Looking at the website before the fifth, but I'll see you then.
And you were gonna do the that one, session two, you're gonna write it up for this.
Yeah, yeah. Thanks for reminding me. That's cool.
I'm seven. Yeah. Okay. Oh, good.
Okay, cool. All right. Thanks, Edwin. Hi. Yeah, it was great. Bye.
